Guild Wars 2

For what it’s worth… this exact topic was discussed to death during the beta. Literally hundreds of pages with pros and cons and good points and bad points, with kittening and moaning, with praise and fan-boydom.

And after all that… they didn’t remove it but did tweak a few (very few) of the skills slightly (very slightly).

I doubt it’s going anywhere.

Snaylor.2760:

Sky.9347:

Snaylor.2760:

Sky.9347:

Snaylor.2760:

Deadpoint.4751:

If GW2 relies on anything except the quality and enjoyment of gameplay to keep people entertained, it has failed. Gear treadmills and all associated mechanics that use a skinner box aren’t inherently bad, but they are consistently used to cover up shoddy gameplay. If playing the game for the sake of enjoyment isn’t enough to keep people coming back, Anet screwed up.

This would be nice if the gameplay/quality in GW2 was so much more enjoyable than WoW or to a much much lesser degree TOR.

People act like this gameplay is vastly different than that of WoW’s when you’re still pressing the same 10 buttons you were 10 years ago.

It IS vastly different. I won’t even bother going through a list. If you can’t see how much different it is, then I think you aren’t doing it right.

Lemme guess you’re going to lecture me about dodging weapon swapping and lack of needing to stand still during casting?

Sorry but that’s not a huge thing to me.

Anet went on about how innovative and different their combat was but gave us WoW with a dodge button instead.

Nope, I’m not going to lecture you at all. I PvP’d in WoW for many years, and I have PvP’d in GW2 since BWE1. They are vastly different animals.

You don’t like the game. Nothing I or anyone else says is going to change your mind. That’s cool, I probably don’t like most of the games you would enjoy either.

If you’re going to post on the forums and seek understanding, then try to listen. If you want to post to complain and try to be a downer… then just quit playing and go back to the games that you enjoy so much more.

It’s your time buddy… and your money.

First off if I didn’t enjoy the game I would have gotten a refund (And not the DDE), simple as that.

I’m on these forums because I am bored already sitting at level 70 and knowing that next to nothing awaits me at 80. what I don’t get is how this is such a huge deal for the PVPers, PvP and PvE are separate games. Why does it matter if there is a carrot on a stick for one side?

Ok cool, now here is something I think we can discuss.

For me… it is a big deal for basically two reasons. First… that gear is used in WvW matches. I do not want artificial stat inflation in WvW requiring me to go grind some more or something. Second… it creates an environment contrary to what GW was, and what ANet advertised (and promised) us GW2 would be.

One smaller reason is… sometimes I like to go PvEing just for relaxation sake, and I don’t want to be required to do that regularly just to enable me to do it sporatically.

During the Beta they had all kinds of boards up. I imagine they will have them all up again. It was extensive, and well formatted.

Just be patient. I appreciate their attitude of doing it right the first time, even if that means it takes a little longer.

Lanvall.9157:

Draw.7529:

You guys enjoy the down system because you’ve never fought alone against several players. In other words, zergers always win, no matter how good you are.

What he said ^

Im sorry to say this to you all but.. There is not a single skilled pvp’er that likes the downed system. And now we are not talking strategy wise, just cause you can adapt to a mechanic does not make it “good”.

Oh – ho…

I like the downed mechanic, and I am a skilled PvPer.

Go ahead… do it… I know you want too…

Lanvall.9157:

There are more problems caused by it then solved by it. Its cool that they tried something new, but hey, it doesn’t work. It doesn’t make pvp better.

PvP isn’t only about area control! Its also about movement, class knowledge, reflexes and a few dozen other things.

The downed system promotes team fights, and not just any team fights! The bigger the better! Zerg vs zerg, its the only place the downed system actually works.

Now I don’t know about you guys.. but in other games I could pull of 1v2’s and sometimes even 1v3’s if playing against players that were not.. ‘at my level’ so to speak..

In Gw2, 1v3? forget it.

And to comment on your theory on dramatic reversals… Whats dramatic about it?
You are on the ground.. throwing rocks.. (why are you not fighting with your mainhand when you are downed?)… Then you magically rally… or heal yourself back up… But most of the time.. some Charr jumps up into the air, waving his arms.. then when he lands you are dead.. ????

Where does this drama that you mentioned start?!?!

Let me show you how a fight should end:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2X_SbZCHpc

Now THAT is a finisher!

Ignoring your juvenile tone and the fact that you’ve probably already made up your mind on this…

… in WvW just a couple nights ago, we were in a huge prolonged (maybe 20-30 minutes) fight over a bridge between a keep and a supply depot. So the enemy set up a pair of arrow carts, and decimated our force. With the keep at our back we managed to prevent a total collapse, and those who were left managed a charge across the bridge to destroy those arrow carts. This charge couldn’t hold ground because they had more siege further back, but it DID allow me and a few other guys to start picking up people that had fallen.

We started with those in the downed state, since they come up so quickly. After one or two rezzes, it snowballed. We were able to get everyone up before our front line fell back to the bridge again…

I can’t count how many times I’ve seen a comrade fall in a group of enemies… and how many times I managed (as a Guardian) to get them back up and buffed up with “Retreat!” to get us BOTH out of there before they all came crashing down around us.

Snaylor.2760:

Sky.9347:

Snaylor.2760:

Deadpoint.4751:

If GW2 relies on anything except the quality and enjoyment of gameplay to keep people entertained, it has failed. Gear treadmills and all associated mechanics that use a skinner box aren’t inherently bad, but they are consistently used to cover up shoddy gameplay. If playing the game for the sake of enjoyment isn’t enough to keep people coming back, Anet screwed up.

This would be nice if the gameplay/quality in GW2 was so much more enjoyable than WoW or to a much much lesser degree TOR.

People act like this gameplay is vastly different than that of WoW’s when you’re still pressing the same 10 buttons you were 10 years ago.

It IS vastly different. I won’t even bother going through a list. If you can’t see how much different it is, then I think you aren’t doing it right.

Lemme guess you’re going to lecture me about dodging weapon swapping and lack of needing to stand still during casting?

Sorry but that’s not a huge thing to me.

Anet went on about how innovative and different their combat was but gave us WoW with a dodge button instead.

Nope, I’m not going to lecture you at all. I PvP’d in WoW for many years, and I have PvP’d in GW2 since BWE1. They are vastly different animals.

You don’t like the game. Nothing I or anyone else says is going to change your mind. That’s cool, I probably don’t like most of the games you would enjoy either.

If you’re going to post on the forums and seek understanding, then try to listen. If you want to post to complain and try to be a downer… then just quit playing and go back to the games that you enjoy so much more.

It’s your time buddy… and your money.

Snaylor.2760:

Deadpoint.4751:

If GW2 relies on anything except the quality and enjoyment of gameplay to keep people entertained, it has failed. Gear treadmills and all associated mechanics that use a skinner box aren’t inherently bad, but they are consistently used to cover up shoddy gameplay. If playing the game for the sake of enjoyment isn’t enough to keep people coming back, Anet screwed up.

This would be nice if the gameplay/quality in GW2 was so much more enjoyable than WoW or to a much much lesser degree TOR.

People act like this gameplay is vastly different than that of WoW’s when you’re still pressing the same 10 buttons you were 10 years ago.

It IS vastly different. I won’t even bother going through a list. If you can’t see how much different it is, then I think you aren’t doing it right.

It’s like you people read a forum post, then immediately start your own thread to “discuss” some statement or comment from the previous post.

It’s maddening.

Don’t let the forums bum you out. Most people who have something to complain about come here to do it. Most of us I think are just enjoying the game.

Just play the game and make your own assessments. I for one… LOVE IT.

As a guardian, I often use a shield in WvW matches. The #4 skill is useful for giving people the protection buff, and the #5 skill is useful for protecting a retreat or just securing a few seconds of positioning for the horde.

Yes you can definitely change the skins of the gear. In fact, as you rank up in PvP you gain access to more rare sets. I can’t tell you how many different PvP sets are available, but it is A LOT… and we can safely bet more will be on the way for future expansions.

Well first let me start with Engineer…

Yes, they can be kind of tanky and ranged, but to really do well with Engineer you’ve got to be very fluid and in and out of different weapon kits. It doesn’t strike me as a profession that would work well with a bunch of lag.

So about Thief… I am not a Thief expert or anything but I will share what I know.

Personally, I like to use dual Pistols and switch to dual Daggers for melee range. I like the elusive stealthy assassin aspect of the Dagger/Dagger skillset. BUT – You could just as easily use a Shortbow on your weapon swap and enjoy some of those delicious skills… (Infiltrator’s Arrow FOR THE WIN).

So when I play dual Pistol Thief I like to stack as much critical chance, critical damage, and evasion/stealth/initiative skills & traits as I can. I like to be super hard to get a hold of, setting up massive damage spikes with the vulnerability (I think its #4) shot followed by Unload (the quick fire damage shot).

Daksou.2451:

Cliffy can you explain why these games are in development for almost a decade and release with no end-game content? Would love to know. They have all the time in the world to work on these things. But we all know by now, they already have the content made..they just release it in 3 months and call it “DLC” like COD does and force you to pay for it. But in 3 months time I can almost certainly guarantee more than %50 of the population on GW2 will die out. Quote me on that and I’ll send you 10 bucks paypal if it doesn’t happen. I already called it on TERA dying out…that game is beyond dead. I’m level 69, the only one out of my group of friends to get this high as most of them already quit. And none of us think alike as we all have very different opinions on the game and what we like and dislike. 7 out of 8 of us quit already. The last one plays solo and only plays because they have nothing better to do but will probably quit soon. I had 3 friends ask me what the game was like and if they should buy it, I told them don’t waste their money and stick to whatever game they play currently.

Not to be rude but can a developer please develop end game content after 8 years of development? Seriously..Stop with the pretty graphics and add real gameplay value.

I could explain it to you, but you wouldn’t care and might not understand.

So what I will say is: quit armchair developing and go get the education/credentials you need to start your own development team. Prove that your priority system for development would be more successful than EVERY OTHER priority system used for development.

I just want to mention that you shouldn’t automatically discount Warriors and Thieves. In fact, while reading your post I was thinking that a Pistol/Pistol Thief might be what you’re looking for.

Hartigan.1486:

To those that don’t like the gear treadmill endgame….okay….then why do them? MMOs are such a perfect microcosm of how real society works. Every action we take we take for a reason. If you don’t provide some incentive for doing something, why do it? And don’t tell me ‘so I can say I did it’. There aren’t enough people who will be satisfied with just that to warrant its inclusion in a game. There has to be some type of reward for partaking in these difficult end game trials. The problem I think GW2 may fall into is there adherence to the notion that they don’t want to allow anyone to be any better than anyone else gear wise. That leaves them with only the option of ‘good looking’ gear for end game. The problem with that is that is pretty subjective and not everyone is going to agree on that.

Now I am no where near 80, so I don’t need to concern myself with it yet, but right now it’s sound as though it could be a bit lacking in terms of rewards. It sounds like a lot of grinding for rewards that aren’t very functional in game. Again leaving the developers to ask themselves what reason does a player have to partake in this event if they feel the reward for doing so has no value?

You say “value”… let’s think about this for a second.

In a gear treadmill, you grind or whatever and you get rewarded with cool-looking gear that has better stats on it that before. The better stats is only in relation to everyone who hasn’t got this gear, since the next PvE challenge will be tuned according to these inflated stats.

In GW2, you grind or whatever and you get rewarded with cool-looking gear that has basically the same stats as before. Your stats are still about the same in relation to everyone who hasn’t got this gear, and to the next PvE challenge as it is tuned for the “maximum” power a character could have.

So the only real difference between these models is the ability to inflate your stats so far above other players who haven’t dedicated the time you have.

Therefore, we can reduce this to a simple statement – Players who insist that they need a gear progression system to enjoy a game are simply trying to create a sense of superiority and elitism in themselves, and those they play with.

The ONLY thing you lose in this system is your artificial sense of power and exclusivity.

Spoon.3826:

I agree with you.
Our party just started making fun of it all. “Mash 2 to win!” As we were going at it.
Sure it looked pretty, with all the fireworks the cannons spewed out. But it was about as thrilling as watching my grandma knit a sock.

“Is she… oh – my – god… I THINK SHE’S STARTING A NEW ROW!!… ladies and gentlemen that is some EXCITING KNITTING ACTION, brought to you by ESPN-8 and Downy Paper Towells…”

No, PvP specific gear is for use in the sPvP arenas (Heart of the Mists) only.

WvW gear is basically whatever you were using before you joined the WvW map (ie: PvE gear).

I hate seeing “…other than WvW and sPvP…” in these posts.

Have you TRIED WvW with a good guild? Man it is easily the best time I have had playing a video game in probably 10 years or more (since the old days of UO PK and Anti-PK battles).

NyghtProwler.9386:

Anet has said before that the “Game” itself is endgame. 1-80 is the endgame content.

They did not want people blazing through their game skipping the whole world in order to get to the end to experience end game content – so to put it plainly, there is no end game content. Enjoy the leveling process of the game because that is it.

Once you are 80, make an alt, sPvP or WvW and that is all she wrote. Dungeons? They said dungeons are fluff and only there for people that want cooler looking gear and to achieve something difficult. So do them or don’t do them, it won’t effect your game.

Gear strength is all pretty much relative it’s not like you can grind out explorer mode and get “Better” gear than me. I could craft an equal item or do an event that unlocks a vendor that gives me a recipe that has comparable stats.

It’s strictly about appearance and what you want to look like. If you want to grind out the time it takes to get a set then cool – do it. You won’t be any stronger than the next guy for doing so. you will just look better and people around you will know that you had the sack to do explorer mode (which I would respect, cuz they are difficult)

+1

I hear you saying that gear progression gives you a sense of victory and progression.
I hear you saying that increasingly difficult PvE encounters which include barriers to entrance (ie: gear checks) gives you a sense of power, and thus fun.

I also hear complaints that perhaps the highest tiers of armor are a little bit too “grindy”, as they require hundreds of tokens which can only be gained through a single dungeon and only through many runs of that dungeon.

So my personal opinion here is that the first two issues are really not going to be resolved. For me, I want to hit level 80 – get a solid income established – find a few pieces of nice gear – and retire into the WvWvW battlegrounds until an expansion comes out OR I need to go earn some coin for new trebuchets. That is MY end-game plan for the one or two characters I ever actually take to 80.

Otherwise, I will be spending my time in sPvP, probably on low level alts, earning PvP rewards and generally kicking somekitten and taking some names.

So when we talk about endgame, I feel like this game has more than I thought it did when I purchased it. All of this stuff was advertised, and has been delivered as advertised.

Now, lastly, the third point about feeling too grindy for certain armor sets… I am not quite sure how I feel about this. I do not like grinds, but some people do. I probably won’t care since I will never try to acquire this armor, but maybe one day I will. Maybe this is something that could be discussed and revisions suggested to ANet once the appropriate forums come up.

TL;DR – The game was not designed to cater to your specific desires. You should have known that before spending $60. Alas, enjoy it while you can and when you no longer do… move on. You’ll still own it and might change your mind in the future!

Deposit it in your Bank, which is shared by all of your characters.

Wow my post got mangled.

The greatsword does have a gap closer, it’s #4 – short jump finisher that blinds enemies, I believe.

Anyway.. to answer your question I have 3 preferences:

Anyway.. to answer your question I have 3 preferences:1) Greatsword – doing damage, cleaning conditions.
2) Great Hammer – control, Protection buff, Retaliation buff
3) Mace + Shield, or Mace + Focus, or Mace + Torch – Great for group support, healing, and depending on off-hand choice can be used in a large variety of situations.

Anyway.. to answer your question I have 3 preferences:1) Greatsword – doing damage, cleaning conditions.
2) Great Hammer – control, Protection buff, Retaliation buff
3) Mace + Shield, or Mace + Focus, or Mace + Torch – Great for group support, healing, and depending on off-hand choice can be used in a large variety of situations.Those are my personal up close and personal weapon choices.

Svenn.5209:

There isn’t “better” gear. Everyone has the same options for gear stats from the start. All of the PvP gear is cosmetic upgrades only. If you want to change gear, go to the vendors in Mists and get new runes and a new amulet to customize yourself.

Structured PvP is specifically structured so that everyone is equal and no one has an advantage because they’ve played longer or something. World vs World uses your regularly obtained gear, so if you want a PvP experience where you can get better gear that is your best bet.

This is all true, but also… higher ranks in PvP do allow you to purchase higher “ranked” gear sets (different cosmetic gear) from the vendors. Actually, you purchase loot bags and open them up for random pieces of cosmetic gear.

In sPvP all gear has equal stats. This is not true in PvE and WvWvW.

Nod.9613:

Durandal.4150:

I just this afternoon spent around 50 silver teleporting to every single map, and found nothing, is there some secret point of interest in the mists or somewhere that I wouldnt normally go?

When you went to each zone, did you specifically look to make sure that you had 100% completion for each zone? If you went to every single zone, and each one had a full X/X for points of interest, then I’m stumped.

And if you went to all of them and they are all complete, then you have to start thinking about and looking for a single PoI on some kind of secret, or at least hidden map. I’m nowhere near 99% complete (GJ btw), but maybe it is in some kind of instanced dungeon somewhere?

Yea I guess I will have to… stop WvWing… to try these out.

Eventually. ;-)

Wildkitten.3872:

Sigiel.2910:

Maybe in a month or tow they will release some new paying content…
did the DEV ever commented on the type of content the store will provide ?
or the time lapse between adding content ?

I do sincerely believe they will release “extension” like the first guildwars but smaller and sooner as well as the big “extension”

They have already said NO gameplay content will ever be on the store. They believe you buy the game, you get ALL the game.

But there will be expansions.

Porkchops.3986:

Sky.9347:

I agree with you mostly, but is that bold statement actually true? In my experience it is not true at all.

I’d be happy to be proven wrong, but from my first-hand experience it certainly is with Mesmer, Warrior, and Elementalist (the latter I’m pretty new at, though). I have more killing power in melee range than I do with ranged combat. The Warrior rifle, for instance, is pretty effective at single-target but you give up any sort of multi-target capability and it’s nowhere close to the carnage of pulling off a well-timed Hundred Blades (or an axe build.. ouch!). The Longbow has the opposite issue, where it has some solid AE capabilities but… not so much trying to take down an individual. Great weapons both, but they don’t stand up to the melee weapons in terms of face-melting potential, in my experience!

Well I guess that makes sense, when you think about the ability for melee weapons to naturally hit multiple targets with the same kind of single target damage.

But on a skill for skill basis, I think raw damage is about equal. Warrior has the rifle skill (#3, forgot the name) that is about equal in damage to Hundred Blades. Ranged is easier to hit, HB has the potential of hitting multiple foes.

I don’t have any numbers to prove you wrong or right, was just wondering since I know there are some ranged skills (Thief’s “Unload”) that surpass the melee options for particular builds or professions when it comes to raw damage.

Again – I agree with your sentiment regarding the OP though, as a melee Guardian I feel like once I catch that squirrelly little Ranger I am going to hurt him SO BAD… and I do. It takes some cunning and wit though, for sure.

Porkchops.3986:

A couple things:

1. There is no such thing as a “ranged character” or a “melee character”. Every class has ranged options. A class like the Guardian might have fewer ranged options than others, but they also tend to have more control to allow them to get in range.

2. I’m not saying this to flame or to disparage, so please understand that so it doesn’t come across the wrong way… but my advice is to “get better” rather than wait for the developers to add a feature for you. . Yes, ranged shots are easier to land than melee shots. Melee attacks also tend to do significantly more damage. The way you’ve phrased your post makes me wonder if you’re taking advantage of your character as much as you can (weapon swaps, skills to close the gap or to immobilize/cripple an opponent, etc). I’m referring to language like referring to yourself several times as “a melee player”. Even with a move-to-target function, people are still going to be able to knock you back, cripple you, evade your attacks, gain swiftness to sprint away, etc.

Anyway, this post was written with the intent of providing advice, not as a flame or disparagement.

I agree with you mostly, but is that bold statement actually true? In my experience it is not true at all.

Vile.7043:

In the end, you are right. This is probably not a game for me. I’m glad it’s free to play though. I wish I’ve read the “Things you wish you knew about the game” thread before buying it :/

Btw I don’t mean to be rude or anything it’s just my vision of the state of this game which a lot of you guys don’t agree with which is perfectly fine.

This is a good way to view it. The whole way they approach PvP (and it was similar in GW1) is the reason why I play the game. Personally, I can’t stand PvP gear progression… because I can’t dedicate time to the game. There are sometimes many weeks I just don’t have time to play, and then when I do return I want to be able to at least have a fair chance against the “hardcore” players. I prefer we just take gear (and thus time) out of the equation and have a match based on skill and strategy.

But again – if you prefer to have some gear progression in your PvP, try WvWvW with a level 2 and then again with a level 80. That should satisfy you.

Viking.1950:

Ah, now Sky has touched on the core of the subject. End game doesn’t have to mean lvl 80. Belcross, one thing I noticed in your post is that you seem to have more than one definition of endgame. Mostly you are defining endgame as what to do once you reach the level cap. But then later you also refer to “endgame content”. So one might ask, is endgame a when? or a what? We must not conflate the two ideas. But it is easy to do because that is what the industry has consistently done for a long time now.

Endgame is the harder content (what) you do after you reach the level cap. (when)

ArenaNet appears to be trying to decouple these two idea in order to meet a primary goal of their’s. The designers mentioned that they didn’t want the game play to change significantly once players reached the level cap. In other words, they didn’t want the leveling game to be different from the endgame. (in terms of when) To this end they have allowed some of the greatest challenges of the game (engame in terms of what) to be taken on before the level cap.

The best examples of this are the explorable dungeons. People are running head long into the explorable and are routinely getting their butts handed back to them. People are finding out that explorables are not just marginally more difficult. They making players to really need to know how to play to the strengths of their character. They are needing to plan and practice combos and put in some real team work and effort. What does that sound like? Sounds like the level of commitment that is often needed by people who raid in other games. Not in terms of the amount of time and dedication taken to grind tokens for a gear set but the kind of try and try again until you learn how to fight the boss kind of dedication that is needed. These are not pug friendly dungeons.

Explorables are the endgame versions (what) of the 5 man dungeons in this game. They are hard and they take time to conquer. For most people. The only difference is that you can try the endgame content known as Explorable Ascalon Catacombs as early as lvl 35. So does it make these instances not endgame if they can be done before level cap? only if you define endgame as a when rather than a what. Would it make the instance endgame if say there was a harder version that could be done at level 80? Well, explorables are the harder versions of storyline dungeons and yeah, they can be done at 80. The only difference being that the game levels you back to the dungeon rather than creating a version of the dungeon that is leveled up to 80 and then called expert or heroic.

You said that the game was not hard enough to be able to consider the leveling up as endgame. And I would agree that most of it isn’t. Exploring. doing hearts. doing most DEs. Crafting. That is the “leveling” or “normal mode” game. And it doesn’t stop when you reach level cap. You can continue to finish out maps and gain more karma, cash and skill points. But then there is also the “end” or the “hard mode” game. And these also are not strictly limited to being done after the level cap. The explorables. The world bosses. Some hard mode DEs in the end zones. Working on getting Legendary weapons. Some of the jumping puzzles are also freakishly hard to find and do.

Any game can and will run out of things for us to do. All we can do when that happens is either find something else to work on that we might not have thought of before or take a break until the next expansion comes out. But just because we can start playing really hard content before the level cap and still play easy content after it doesn’t mean that GW2 has less to offer than other games. It just has it laid out differently.

Also, as an added observation. Consider that, because of the way we can level back to earlier dungeons and zones and still enjoy them at the level cap, what that will mean for expansions. GW2 expansions don’t have to be at the level cap or add another 5 or 10 levels to be fun for most players. Anet can add say zones from lvl 25-80 over in Maguuma Wastes that would essentially add a new and unique level path that could be more naturally used by future Asura and Sylvari. They could also add another dungeon into these zones half way though and yet everyone who is already at level cap would be able to play these zones and its dungeon just like they did every other. Thanks to the auto leveling, expansion content can be offered to both those still leveling and those long since capped. The design is masterful once you let it sink in.

I agree with you 100%. These systems are very well designed, and I speak as a professional in this case.

Snuffleluffagus.5076:

Awesome sounds like fun.. So I take it be level 80 before you go in there ?

You CAN go in at level 1 or 2, and you’ll be scaled up to 80. But you wouldn’t have any weapon skills unlocked, utility skills unlocked, no elites, only 1 healing skill unlocked, zero traits (a big disadvantage) and NO MONEY FOR SIEGE.

But you will slowly level while playing anyway.

The natural level 80s just stomp the scaled level 80s. But you can still be very useful, just maybe not so much with 1v1 fights.

Snuffleluffagus.5076:

Ok ,

ty for the insight.

I did not know about WvWvW. I assume this is world vs world or something like it ?

If so I have new reason to play..

Ty for taking the time to explain.

Appreciate it

World vs. World vs. World is something that I think many people (myself included) grossly underestimated.

Siege warfare is terrifying. When you see that red circle appear on the ground and you KNOW some siege engines at the nearby keep have been trying to get a bead on you and you KNOW they can basically kill you in one or two shots… yea, you learn to fear the siege.

For me, tactics seem to revolve around supply. Getting it, moving it, denying it, controlling it, and USING it.

WvW is fun, but honestly it takes a solid hour or two before you’re really gonna “get it”.

I just went through this debate with myself. I finally settled on Guardian, but only because it fits my playstyle better than Warrior for now.

Okay so I think you and I have a lot in common personality wise, I will just share some things that stuck out with both for me:

Warrior has a higher health pool, true, but practically this doesn’t mean anything. Guardians have passive mitigation and regeneration… it feels like in the end they are equal.

Warrior relies more on the nitty-gritty martial aspect in combat.
Guardian relies more on the magical, holy warrior aspect in combat.

Warrior has FAR better ranged options. (This was a big hangup for me)
Guardian has FAR better mobility!! (Teleports and stuff, it’s fun)

Warrior leans more towards offensive support for allies.
Guardian leans more towards defensive support for allies.

Both classes, in my limited experience, can bring the Pain Train down the tracks if needed. I prefer the Guardian Greatsword skills because you can perform self combos!

I would say play them both, because both are awesome classes… but for me I will focus on Guardian for now and just jump into some sPvP with my Warrior when I need the adrenaline fix.

In this game, we fight in PvP because we like to fight. The gear all has equal stats, because we like to fight on even terms.

If we just live in the Mists, we will eventually earn some really kitten looking gear to flaunt how awesome we are.

But no matter what, sPvP is always an EVEN PLAYING FIELD where you win or lose based solely on your strategy, and tactics. Never will you lose just because your opponent has all the free time in the world to get the highest tier of gear and 2 shot you into oblivion while only taking 13% of your damage.

But fear not! For there is one other method of PvP which combines your PvE progression (and gear) with a somewhat level playing field.

WvWvW – You will use your unlocked skills, equipped gear, and earned money. You’ll be scaled to level 80.. but you don’t get instant access to skills/traits/gear.

Azzras.8041:

I think a few of you are misunderstanding what the OP posted.

s/He’s asking YOU what you will do once you have explored everything, maxed all your skills, etc.

What will hold YOU to the game after you have the entire map explored, the greatest looking armor?

What do YOU want from endgame?

This isn’t about rushing to the finish line, this is about what we will be doing once we reach the proverbial endgame.

In that case, for me… WvWvW

I never thought WvW would grab my attention like it has. I bought the game basically for sPvP (which I do still love to play), but the Borderlands and Eternal Battleground have really caught my attention. In fact, I have no decided to level a character to 80 (before I had no interest in leveling) just so I can perform better in WvW.

So… my endgame will be working the TP or crafting (I’m gonna cook!) for money, which will then promptly be spent on the WvWvW maps laying siege to our enemies!

Dabrixmgp.4758:

In any game you play the majority of your time will be spent at max level. So what is there to do for say the next 2 years while Im level 80? Am I supposed to farm DEs all day long for 700 days? Id be rich at least but I hope theres more to the game than that. I dont care about raids but what about events like Shadow Behemoth. Are there more of those at 80?

Doesn’t have to be level 80 though, since you will scale down to an appropriate level for any zone at all.

I would LOVE to see future content patches release level 20, or 40, or 2 dungeons. Then you could bring your super-elite level 80 back to Ashford Plains and have some serious level 12 dungeon goodness… because “end game” doesn’t have to mean level 80, does it?

Baarak.2486:

Frosty and Frosty Law Firm.4981:

nubery.9346:

End game is a bullkitten term used by raiders to justify wanting more content. It’s too true. Gw2 is not a pve raiding game and if you purchased it for that reason just quit now. The way I see it Anet built this game around the sort of design League of legends and dota style games use. Their endgame is the same game you played when you first started, leveling just unlocks abilities, skills, and the like to improve your chsracter’s capability to perform in the already existing environment. I’m so pleased with Anet for going this route and not turning the game into a instance grind. The grind in gw2 is playing the game itself, more games should be built around this.

Thumbs up to this gentleman, he summarized everything I was going to say for me.

Its also a fantastic way to alienate a lot of players, and lose a lot of money and an excellent chance to overtake WoW as the most popular MMO out there.

I don’t mean this to sound harsh or offend anyone…

I think the best plan is to alienate them. There is no need to compete with WoW or try to beat it or anything… the games are just too different. If the only way to get those players to try GW2 is by turning it into GWoW, then they aren’t interested in changing games anyway.

I don’t like this idea of new games being forced to cater to the WoW crowd, using WoW-esque systems, with WoW-like reward patterns.

I can not stand playing WoW. It was ok for a while, but it was never really a -good- game in my opinion… rather just a popular one. I would love for GW2 to stay as far away from WoW as possible, which I think they’ve done pretty well.

Baarak.2486:

Belcross just argued my point far more eloquently then I could have done. It’s not that I dont like Pvp, exploring, or DE’s I just also want there to be high end PvE as well.

Sky: If they changed systems this game would not be similar to Rift. Rift was just WoW with early DE’s and a confusing class system. GW2 would still have a great combat system, great pvp, great DE’s, and an excellent leveling system. It would add endgame PVE, that’s it.

The only thing I am truly “against” here is gear progression. I just don’t want to see that come in and ruin the #1 reason I decided to give GW2 a shot after having abandoned MMORPGs in general.

Harder content, sure. Epic challenges, sure. Guild uniting events, sounds great.

Extensive gear progression… /sigh, back to first-person shooters…

Belcross.6127:

The game itself is sort of in a sense endgame through out and not at the same time especially for PVE. The content isn’t challenging enough to be considered endgame content. Sorry~

For those saying that WoW created the ideal of Endgame, that’s quite wrong. Endgame existed in early MMO’s before WoW’s time. Endgame came into existence because players at one point or another max level, professions and content over a period of days or years. Something as gamers, we’ve experienced many times.

At one point or another, people will all hit 80 in this game and have done 90% of content and have maxed professions. At that point, if there is nothing beyond that, the game becomes dull, like D3, even though it is a different genre. People will hit 80 and will max everything. That’s inevitable in MMO’s.

Alot of people say that levels don’t matter in this game. They do. You can only do certain zones properly once you hit those levels, you can only do certain dungeons when you hit certain levels, you can only farm certain materials until your level allows you to reach those zones, Levels do matter, its just not as much as they used too. The down scaling of levels was a great idea and well done feature. I can finally run around with my siblings who are always lower level in every game in our past 15 years of gaming.

Endgame content was designed to be hard and challenging, something to keep players occupied in the world when they hit the end of the road. In GW2 your occupied all the time but eventually, you’ll have done most the content and you’ll end up at this point.

“What foe could possibly challenge the Heroes of Tyria who wield Legendary weapons and have accomplished impossible feats?!”

The world events are challenging but they aren’t what people would call end-game challenging and they don’t necessarily require PVE-Guilds. If GW2 attaches new dungeons and they are of similar difficulty and 5-man size, people become bored quickly, same with world events. Easy isn’t always fun, cause its not satisfying, look at the WoW raid-finder crisis. Just think why strong fighters are always wanting to fight stronger fighters. No fun in beating up wimps who provide no challenge, well I’m sure it’d be somewhat amusing but not as fun.

Remember this is what we are looking for:

“What foe could possibly challenge the Heroes of Tyria who wield Legendary weapons and have accomplished impossible feats?!”

Not wimps that provide no challenge.

The current dungeons do provide a certain degree of challenge. I’ve done quite a few myself and managed to beat them. I found them very enjoyable, however there aren’t very many of them. They only require 5 people. Once again they don’t necessarily require PVE-Guilds to do them. This is why PVE-Guilds and players are very concerned. Is there any reason why PVE’ers should be gathering for other then just guild buffs? What are these buffs for if no there is no one to challenge? Why should they gather to begin with? If PVE endgame did exist, people wouldn’t be here posting so and there definitely would not be this many views either by the community.

The voice of concern here is from the PVE players and guilds. There is still plenty to do now since its early but is there anything worth doing when players hit the “endgame marker” is the true question. Players would like to know now cause they will be investing in much more play time waiting for things like that or preparing to move to other games… cough… MOP. (I seriously don’t want to play MOP)

Some players voice that progression gear will ruin the game. Yes it does but who says end-game content has to give progression gear? Ragnarok Online didn’t give progression gear all the time. People farmed endgame content for God awesome looking accessories. Just cause it looked cool, people farmed months for it.

“The heroes of Tyria, who want to protect and save Tyria from future problems, want to know if they are truly needed in the future or will just any commoner suffice to save Tyria, if so… they will move on to be heroes in other strange new lands”

This is what the PVE players are asking. It is crucial that this be clearly stated as well and soon. With MOP, a MMORPG with endgame, just over the hill. GW2 PVE-guilds and players are wanting to know. Time is money, especially to everyone in this category, GW2 franchise and players alike.

This is well-written, and although I am primarily a PvP player (and thus the “other” side) reading your post has helped me understand.

So PvE guilds want to know they will have Epic Challenges that will give them a reason and purpose in the game, over the long-term.

I can understand that.

I can’t speak for ANet, obviously, but it seems to me that this would be a concern that could absolutely be addressed in time, since that point likely won’t truly become an issue for several months more.

Good post though, bravo.

Baarak.2486:

Sky.9347:

Duveth.5742:

the game doesnt feel rewarding enough at max level to keep me playiing for long, i like the game and it has potential but with no gear progression, raids or mounts i dont think i will be playing in 2 months (at least pve)

And lucky for you, I am certain WoW will still be around and available to you.

I get the preference, but I am so very happy that GW2 doesn’t follow the WoW model and instead provides a refuge for those gamers like me who despise the gear treadmill and boring “end-game” raids that end up being hours of waiting, prepping, and wipe recovery weighed against minutes of actual fighting time (most of which is spent doing the EXACT SAME THING as every other person who plays your class and/or role).

So we can both enjoy our games.

I don’t understand why this concept is mutually exclusive from the current game right now. It would be possible and perhaps necessary to implement high end PvE content. Most people playing this game instead of WoW are doing so for a reason. If GW2 had a similar PVE system to WoW, and kept what it has right now the game would appeal to everyone, and it would be phenomenal.

But how can you both have extensive gear progression, and NOT have extensive gear progression… at the same time?

If GW2 had a similar PvE system to WoW, it would probably pale in comparison and become yet another Rift. It wouldn’t appeal to everyone, but rather would become a watered down WoW clone that appealed to no-one.

I fully expect to see more dungeons added to the game over time. Doesn’t really matter what level these dungeons are, due to the way the system works.

I guess I don’t really understand what it is you’re after. You say the dungeons are dull, easy, and that you want gear progression and mounts.

I think you’re blinding yourself.
1) Dungeons are dull and easy – really? So you’ve completed them all in explore mode?
2) Gear progression – really? This game was advertised as not having the gear progression treadmill, and that was the primary reason I bought it and will continue to play it. Surely you knew this before you bought the game, they have made it apparent that it was a design feature.
3) Mounts… I think this might be a cool thing to add in an expansion, but with the game so young and the world so large I think doing this without giving people a chance to appreciate the sheer size of maps while working on completion achievements would be a huge mistake.
4) Raids – well, the raids in WoW tend to be a several hour long process required to kill just a couple of bosses, with most of my time wasted waiting here, or waiting there. I really don’t miss them… at all.

Either you like it or you don’t. I for one love everything about the game that you seem to dislike.

Duveth.5742:

the game doesnt feel rewarding enough at max level to keep me playiing for long, i like the game and it has potential but with no gear progression, raids or mounts i dont think i will be playing in 2 months (at least pve)

And lucky for you, I am certain WoW will still be around and available to you.

I get the preference, but I am so very happy that GW2 doesn’t follow the WoW model and instead provides a refuge for those gamers like me who despise the gear treadmill and boring “end-game” raids that end up being hours of waiting, prepping, and wipe recovery weighed against minutes of actual fighting time (most of which is spent doing the EXACT SAME THING as every other person who plays your class and/or role).

So we can both enjoy our games.

nysta.6713:

how everyone got to 80 so quick worries me. i haven’t managed to get a toon out of its 20s. i keep wanting to reroll because i saw someone doing something that looks cool. or i just want to see more of the other races. i can’t decide! it’s like being in a candy shop.

i never move on from a map until i’ve finished it all. and even then, i think i’ve done some of those dynamic events a few more times just because they’re fun.

I am thinking the same way. I’ve literally played every class now, and finally I just fell in love with the Guardian. (that may change by the end of the upcoming weekend)

My next goal is to save up enough gold to purchase 3 additional character slots without spending any real money on gems. MWAHAHAHAHA WORLD DOMINATION!

This game is awesome.

Now, I do see a few bugs and/or annoying little things here and there – but those are really very minor and I am sure will eventually be fixed.

What I am really enjoying is the SYSTEM DESIGN here. I bought this game for the PvP, and I find myself spending at least as much time in PvE. I spent the first week or so just leveling each class to about level 10, to feel the differences before spending much time on one. I am amazed that even though each class can perform many different roles, they all do so with their own unique flare and style!

The game has depth, beauty, detail, and gives me a real sense of relaxation when I play.

PvE is refreshing; I can just kind of “zone-out” and explore the world without worrying about XP efficiency or constantly returning to quest givers. It doesn’t FEEL like a grind!

sPvP is exciting and competitive. I will admit I am not a big fan of the underwater map, but that is likely due to my lack of experience and skill with underwater combat.

WvWvW is my new addiction. What can I say… it’s wonderful. Some of the blueprints are expensive, but not prohibitively so when used wisely. I’ve been leveling my characters in WvW matches, and it is a LOT of fun.

I played Ultima Online (awesome game for it’s time), I played EQ, WoW, Rift, Mortal Online, Age of Conan (BEAR SHAMAN!!), DAoC, and a few other MMORPGs either for multiple years or on release. I was completely over the entire genre, just spending my game time with TF2, Skyrim, LoL, or maybe a little SC2 – until this game.

I am now 100% into this game. I’ve seen so many promise to be revolutionary and flop, I was actually expecting this one to pretty much fail. I have been proven wrong (oh THANK GOD), and I am very happy with my purchase.

Thank you for making such an awesome game, and for continuing to quickly patch it up and improve it.