Guild Wars 2

tarnin.1690:

Brunners.7251:

tarnin.1690:

Stiv.1820:

Swiftly.2385:

Stiv, Some great ideas here. But I am betting it won’t happen. Wv3 feels like an ANet afterthought. Really to bad too, because for myself and scores of others it is THE GW2 endgame.

It’s endgame for me as well. I’ve read around that Anet was surprised at how popular it is. It that’s true, maybe it will get some focus in the future.

Sadly I think that will come too late and many of us will be off to other games.

Well it’s not like you’re paying monthly so if you leave, it doesn’t really matter…you can always just..you know…come back when they’ve fixed it to your standard?

The issue there is that they will look at the much smaller numbers and will just decide to NOT do anything as it won’t be worth it. It’s a vicious circle. This game makes money on in game sales (need people playing for that) and expansions (need people playing for that too).

I honestly don’t think GW2 is anywhere NEAR that sort of fate.

Yea, there are problems, but this game is still borderline revolutionary for the genre and has a ton of players who will stick to it for whatever reasons.

You’ll see.

Daays.4317:

Sky.9347:

This isn’t 100% uptime. Your entire complaint is worthless, because this isn’t 100% uptime. Now you are talking about delays and such… which could be it’s own thread, because it still isn’t 100% uptime on retaliation.

Yea you’re totally right. It’s not up 100% of the time. He’s not walking around with it on.

It’s only up 100% of the time when fighting people.

This is clearly not an issue because when he’s off playing with flowers, he doesn’t have retal.

You got me.

It isn’t 100% in combat, either.

In a short fight it might be 100%, but only because you died before the duration wore off. During that initial duration… yes, you will likely be delayed. But if you don’t attack him a ton, he’s got an entire build built around something you just made useless outside of the couple dozen seconds he delayed you from killing him.

EDIT: And if his entire build and purpose in pvp is to delay you for 30 seconds every once in a while… well then I see no problem with that.

2nd EDIT: I don’t know why you hate me so much that you have to continuously amend your posts with little jabs to try to… what? insult me? I’m not even sure.

Balidore.2790:

Sky.9347:

Balidore.2790:

I like the OP idea. I just don’t see ‘cool looking stuff,’ as actual time worthy character progression.

What would be, then?

Well, people don’t like my answer. lol. but I’ll say it anyway I guess…

Get points based off of: Kills, Supply used (both building and repairs), Siege placed, Healing done. Balance the amount gained between all things.

If you have 50 people kill 1 guy, the amount gained is diminished. If you kill 50 people with 1 guy (unlikely, lol) you get a larger amount of points.

If you die alot, you’re worth a less amounts of points (this is to keep people from farming points off newer players and friends).

Doing the average point worthy task, is worth about 10-35 points.

These points, can either be traded in for w3 badges, for exotic gear, prolly 2-3k points would be enough for an average 1 piece of gear.

Or, you can save these points, and after about 10k or so, get a small ability buff. Not a new ability, Not added permanent points. But a buffed ability of some sort.
For example:

Shadow Refuge (for those who don’t know, this utility skill heals and stealth in an AoE effect).
Spend 10k points, and now Shadow Refuge heals for a little more. Or maybe stealths you for another second… etc.

Something small, but nice to have. Not easy to get, and not game breaking, but people want it.

You’re right, I don’t like it… lol.

I stand opposed to any mechanical advantage given to senior players over less senior players, outside of simple player skill & knowledge.

Daays.4317:

Sky.9347:

Daays.4317:

Sky.9347:

You say his job is to delay you, and in your mind it takes 2 people to kill him.

It will take two people to kill him. Either one with boon removal or another DPS to split the retal damage.

Sky.9347:

If you hadn’t hit him… he would have never killed you. Thus, he needs 2 people to do any killing as well..

His job is to delay. Not kill. Not attacking him is allowing him to delay.

Once again, you fail to understand that not attacking a bunker class (that was brought to the game to hold a point long enough for backup to arrive) is not a viable option because you’re allowing him to fulfill his role.

Yet you think it’s perfectly viable.

And you are saying that he shouldn’t be allowed to delay you at all.

Listen, if you are playing a profession & build that doesn’t have any boon removal… and you are a player who is ignorant of the bunkers limitations… then yea, you’re gonna be delayed.

Keep in mind his entire build and playstyle centers around delaying you. You killing yourself with retal was just an added benefit.

I’m not even saying bunkers in general shouldn’t be tweaked. I am saying you failed in this fight, and you aren’t seeing it even after all this forum QQ.

Except he still delayed me. This fight went on for ~30 seconds. His heal was off cooldown.

It ended early because I died to his passive damage reflect. It would have gone longer had that not been the case. Probably about another 20-30 seconds before my CD’s came back up and he had nothing.

Once again, no bunker spec should be able to kill. Only delay incoming attacks and support their team. If they are able to kill, it’s insulting to balance.

Okay, maybe. But by that logic one could say “no one should ever be able to kill a bunker without help”. If you take away any ability they have to do damage, you’d have to buff up their defense even more.

I don’t know if that’s a good solution. You might feel like he was unkillable, but he wasn’t. He may have delayed you 30 seconds, but that doesn’t seem like such a problem.. and certainly isn’t related to retaliation. He may have delayed you longer had you played smart instead of balls to the wall aggressive, because although he may have been able to string together 30 seconds of retaliation (I’d have to check but I think even that isn’t possible without a big bit of luck in his build), he would have been naked after that.

This isn’t 100% uptime. Your entire complaint is worthless, because this isn’t 100% uptime. Now you are talking about delays and such… which could be it’s own thread, because it still isn’t 100% uptime on retaliation.

So, you are going to fly over to the UK and then… ?

I mean, travelling the world is awesome and all, but can’t you just handle this via the internet or maybe a phone call or something? Send a fax?

Daays.4317:

Sky.9347:

You say his job is to delay you, and in your mind it takes 2 people to kill him.

It will take two people to kill him. Either one with boon removal or another DPS to split the retal damage.

Sky.9347:

If you hadn’t hit him… he would have never killed you. Thus, he needs 2 people to do any killing as well..

His job is to delay. Not kill. Not attacking him is allowing him to delay.

Once again, you fail to understand that not attacking a bunker class (that was brought to the game to hold a point long enough for backup to arrive) is not a viable option because you’re allowing him to fulfill his role.

Yet you think it’s perfectly viable.

And you are saying that he shouldn’t be allowed to delay you at all.

Listen, if you are playing a profession & build that doesn’t have any boon removal… and you are a player who is ignorant of the bunkers limitations… then yea, you’re gonna be delayed.

Keep in mind his entire build and playstyle centers around delaying you. You killing yourself with retal was just an added benefit.

I’m not even saying bunkers in general shouldn’t be tweaked. I am saying you failed in this fight, and you aren’t seeing it even after all this forum QQ.

Killyox.3950:

What is so strange he hit him 47 times?

The only BAD people here are the ones who say he hit him 47 times…

What of it? Guardian can have retal nearly 100% time. There are MANY multihitting skills in the game. Engineer’s Flame Jet is best example, hits TEN (10) times in period of 2,25s.

Burn Bomb…. Initial explosion + 3 hits in aoe so 4 hits itself lets assume 3 people hit have retal that is 12 retal hits in 3 seconds.

Drop the “you hit him 47 times” because you look like noobs. Retal is just dumb. At worst they should give retal charges, like 3 hits reflected and that’s it.

PS

I play myself Engie and Guardian.

Because THIS guardian didn’t have 100% uptime, and Retal was the primary source of damage (by far), and there is no skill in this game I know of that hits 47 times.

You can, at any time, stop hitting someone who has retaliation on them. This is not a 100% uptime situation.

Your bolded statement doesn’t apply. This was a 1 on 1 duel in which the only real damage was done 230 hp at a time, 47 times, without the attacker stopping to recover or wait for retal to drop or anything.

If a sword/scepter guardian has super high retal uptime, he has burned utilities to make that happen. He isn’t unkillable.

Daays.4317:

Look what you’re saying.

Burst has it’s answer. It can kill and be killed by a well-rounded player and be killed by another burst class.

If burst can’t kill a tank class, a tank class can’t kill a tank class, and a tank class can live long enough for vs a well-rounded character for backup to arrive, then something isn’t right.

You have a spec that is unkillable in two cases and fulfilled his role in the 3rd.

Hence why bunkers are ruining the game.

If you nerf bunkers, burst builds will be all that’s left. Balanced builds do not often stand up well to pure burst. Burst vs. Burst is all about whoever gets their opener off first.

I think both bunkers & bursts need to be toned down. I think doing one without the other will destroy what balance there is.

I don’t believe they are unkillable. Sustained damage will do far better against a bunker than burst damage.

Daays.4317:

Sky.9347:

I think if you are going to attack and kill a bunker, you should be looking at removing boons, watching for retaliation, and generally being more patient.

Be more patient? Against a class that is designed to delay? How do you not see the problem with this? Being patient doesn’t counter the guardian. You play right into his hand.

Remove boons? As a warrior? With what abilities? Besides, what’s 1 boon removal on a cooldown going to do vs spammable retal? Heaven forbid it doesn’t get retal. Not like all classes have null field or corrupt boon.

Which then requires you to have a teammate around. So now you’re saying that you need a team to take out one class. Which means that class isn’t balanced.

Which is why bunker classes are determining team comps right now. Because they’re too strong to pass up.

Please, keep showing how you’re “not ignorant”.

But I say that in jest. Being ignorant btw isn’t a bad thing. It just means you don’t know.

Now you know. And knowing is half the battle.

You say his job is to delay you, and in your mind it takes 2 people to kill him.
If you hadn’t hit him 47 times while retal was up, he would have never killed you. Thus, he needs 2 people to do any killing as well.

Listen buddy, it’s obvious you and I are never going to see eye to eye on this. You refuse to learn anything about the class and instead fall back on:

“it’s OP!! Why can’t I just quickly solo down any player who has committed his ENTIRE BUILD AND STYLE to defense?! If he delays me, then he wins. I need to be able to kill him QUICKLY, and if I can’t it’s obviously because his build is broken.”

And I can’t argue with that mentality.

Enjoy your thread. I’m sure the developers are breathing in every word of your expert opinion.

Balidore.2790:

I like the OP idea. I just don’t see ‘cool looking stuff,’ as actual time worthy character progression.

What would be, then?

Daays.4317:

Sky.9347:

Daays.4317:

@Sky

Please refrain from being ignorant.

First off, this was a duel. I just found it…entertaining that him doing nothing provided the same benefit as using ALL OF HIS ABILITIES COMBINED. I want you to think about that for a second. Chew on it. Savor it. Then ask yourself if that’s good game design.

Second, he has retal up 100% of the time. There is no “waiting”.

Third, the design of a bunker class is to delay for backup to come. Not to kill. So “not attacking” isn’t an option because you’re effectively playing into the role of what the class was meant to do.

I’m not sure you understand what ignorant means. We’ll just let that go.

First – if this was a duel, then what do you care about how long it takes? He obviously didn’t “do nothing”, and I would just like to point out again that YOU HIT HIM FORTY SEVEN TIMES and killed yourself 230 HP at a time. This wasn’t unexpected, surely, because after #41 you could have stopped and still had 1400 HP left.

Second – No, he doesn’t. Not if he is by himself, not with what we can tell from that death recap. You are simply ignorant of Guardian abilities and cooldowns. (see how that works, let’s refrain from being ignorant)

Third – Yes, that’s right. His job is to stall you, and he should have never killed you alone. Alas… you just killed yourself on a boon that is clearly displayed by his health bar, and which clearly wasn’t up 100% of the time. It was up long enough for you to hit him 47 times though.

This is a L2P problem. I’m not saying there aren’t possibly problems with Retal in certain builds… I am saying this build isn’t one of them and you killed yourself because you were (and seem to still be) ignorant about your opponent.

You don’t know the build for perma retal.

You think it’s fine that a passive damage reflect should do as much damage as all of his abilties combined.

You think people should just not attack bunker classes.

And I’m the one who is ignorant.

Well, at least this post wasn’t directed at you. More to Anet. In which they feel the same way. Was simply giving them an update on how their battle against retal is going.

Not very well.

Of course I know the build. I’ve played Guardian since the first BWE.
This line you’re spouting about “did more than all of his abilities combined” is irrelevant. Retaliation is the primary source of damage in his build. This is like saying… “so it’s okay that Backstab did more damage than all his other abilities combined?!?!!”… yea, it’s fine. It didn’t do that much damage, only 230 per hit. You shouldn’t have hit him 47 times.

You are ignorant. His build doesn’t have 100% Retal. uptime.

I agree that 100% uptime on Retal is a bad thing. This situation is not that situation, though.

I think if you are going to attack and kill a bunker, you should be looking at removing boons, watching for retaliation, and generally being more patient.

deapee;

Actually, it matters a lot. Toughness makes each hit do less damage.

Daays.4317:

@Sky

Please refrain from being ignorant.

First off, this was a duel. I just found it…entertaining that him doing nothing provided the same benefit as using ALL OF HIS ABILITIES COMBINED. I want you to think about that for a second. Chew on it. Savor it. Then ask yourself if that’s good game design.

Second, he has retal up 100% of the time. There is no “waiting”.

Third, the design of a bunker class is to delay for backup to come. Not to kill. So “not attacking” isn’t an option because you’re effectively playing into the role of what the class was meant to do.

I’m not sure you understand what ignorant means. We’ll just let that go.

First – if this was a duel, then what do you care about how long it takes? He obviously didn’t “do nothing”, and I would just like to point out again that YOU HIT HIM FORTY SEVEN TIMES and killed yourself 230 HP at a time. This wasn’t unexpected, surely, because after #41 you could have stopped and still had 1400 HP left.

Second – No, he doesn’t. Not if he is by himself, not with what we can tell from that death recap. You are simply ignorant of Guardian abilities and cooldowns. (see how that works, let’s refrain from being ignorant)

Third – Yes, that’s right. His job is to stall you, and he should have never killed you alone. Alas… you just killed yourself on a boon that is clearly displayed by his health bar, and which clearly wasn’t up 100% of the time. It was up long enough for you to hit him 47 times though.

This is a L2P problem. I’m not saying there aren’t possibly problems with Retal in certain builds… I am saying this build isn’t one of them and you killed yourself because you were (and seem to still be) ignorant about your opponent.

Daays.4317:

Sky.9347:

Ok, one thing I don’t understand…

… if bunkers are supposed to be countered by glass cannons, what is supposed to counter glass cannons?

The whole point of a bunker class is to delay. Not kill people. Delay. You sacrifice your offense for more defense.

A glass cannon character doesn’t need the added defense against a pure defensive character. They will already put out little damage and won’t be able to down you. So picking up more defense is pointless. Just stack offensive power.

A well-rounded character though will take a mixture of both. You will have the defensive utility and traits while being able to dish out damage. Since the glass cannon doesn’t have much to stop your damage, and you just stopped his burst, he will go down.

Problem with being well-rounded vs bunker is that while you’re able to eventually down him, the added defensive power you picked up plays against you. No reason to get damage immunities/reduction when you’re not taking damage. So you’re playing into the hands of the tank class; which is delaying.

Well rounded characters are dying in 2-3 seconds to burst builds.

Burst builds kill one another even more quickittenhan that.

Now, you are saying Burst should be killing Bunkers, too.

What is the answer to Burst builds? Balanced doesn’t work. By the time you have enough to “stop his burst”, you’re going to have a very difficult time finding enough damage to threaten anyone except the most frail of builds.

EDIT: I don’t like the idea of a bunch of glass cannons roaming around waiting for the single missed dodge or popped cooldown that will enable them to drop their opponent in a few seconds.
That should be an option, but it shouldn’t be the only option.

How do you go from smacking someone (who did kitten for damage, btw) FORTY SEVEN times @ about 230 damage each hit – to saying you need a whole team to kill the guy.

YOU HIT HIM FORTY SEVEN TIMES when he had Retaliation active. Quit doing that, start being a little more patient, and I promise you bunker builds are not unbeatable. Also… he would have never had the damage to kill you had you not endlessly beat on him while he had his main source of damage active.

Khyras,

From reading your post I get the impression that you have a lot to learn about sPvP.

Perhaps you should experiment with all the professions and get a better sense of their limitations.

Ok, one thing I don’t understand…

… if bunkers are supposed to be countered by glass cannons, what is supposed to counter glass cannons?

So… what was your toughness?

Diage.6451:

Sky.9347:

I played GW1, but I wasn’t in an elite guild or anything. I loved PvP, and I watched a LOT of GvG.

I prefer GW2, because before long these technical issues will go away and the team will have time to bring the things that kept you in GW1 forward.

Keep in mind, all of these features have to be re-programmed from scratch.

That’s why we gave them 5-6 years… And the argument is, it takes 5-6 years to get to a place that isn’t even half as far as the last place they were at (gw1 pvp.)

Because writing an entirely new engine for a MMO focused on PvP is easy, right?

I played GW1, but I wasn’t in an elite guild or anything. I loved PvP, and I watched a LOT of GvG.

I prefer GW2, because before long these technical issues will go away and the team will have time to bring the things that kept you in GW1 forward.

Keep in mind, all of these features have to be re-programmed from scratch.

mcl:

I am going to break your post up and respond piece by piece; not out of disrespect but instead because there is so much there.

mcl.9240:

As has already been argued elsewhere, XFire use is not a representative sample of the GW2 customer population. The data is therefore irrelevant.

You asked the man to provide you data which I think you know is impossible for him to provide. Come on… XFire is flawed data, absolutely, but where else can he turn for any kind of data?

mcl.9240:

I go into overflow all the time. The fact that today’s average number of players logged in is lower than launch is NOT a surprise. It’s normal. it happens in every game. Go ask a game publisher for general players-per-day trends over time, from launch onwards.

And there were a small but significant number of people just biding time until Pandaland came out; nobody would deny that.

I agree with you, completely. It was 100% expected, which is why they even included overflow and raised the server cap. They knew the game would never retain that initial surge. If I were a betting man, I would wager that no game ever in the history of the universe has.

mcl.9240:

So, you have the typical-to-every-game post-launch drop, and an expected drop due to the new WoW expansion, and your support for “the game is dying” is XFire data, which is, again, not a representative sample (which is a statistical term and a polite way of saying, “that data is meaningless”).

You offered a counter-example to his empirical evidence. Fair enough.
Surely you can’t deny that although the game is not “dying”, the sudden and sustained loss of population might be concerning to someone who wants to play a game with a large and active population.

mcl.9240:

And this is your basis for wanting post-cap progression in WvWvW, of whatever form. Because if not, OMGTTEHGAMEWILLDIE!

Forgive me if I don’t hop on your particular bandwagon.

The only progression GW2 offers, or will offer (if the developers stay true to their vision as they have done thus far) is horizontal.

You (and I, for that matter) may not give two kitten about this cosmetic or aesthetic stuff, but some people really do.

Your only arguments thus far have been (I am paraphrasing):

Badly designed metrics could potentially destroy team cohesion.
(I suggest you quit arguing against something they already said they had planned, and argue for considerate metrics)

and

Bugs/balance/glitches are so important that I can’t even stand the fact this is being discussed.
(I agree, which is why people who haven’t followed the game for years still suggest stuff like this, even though the rest of us know it will all come in time. ANet is not discussing it right now, because it is so far down the priority list they have zero clue of when they will get on it. Maybe an expansion.)

I 100% support this idea. Good discussion. These types of discussion just give us hope and excitement for the future of the game.

Personally, I think there should be one string of major titles, each coming with a recipe that allows the player to craft a consumable which would add a glow or particle effect to a weapon item. The titles should be based on something critically related to WvW teamwork, perhaps some combination of other smaller rewards. They should take a long time to achieve. They should not be able to be done by “grinding”.

Make it happen, ANet! (later, after these bugs and such)

mcl.9240:

Sky.9347:

This is a good point, but one that isn’t based on the idea of cosmetic rewards so much as very badly designed metrics.

As long as individual rewards contribute towards team success, this is not an issue.

Any reward can fail to contribute to team success at a particular time.

Grinding yak-killing? Team needs to focus on taking other objectives? You’re not working towards team success.

Grinding K/D? So you’re hiding on the walls, AoEing anything and everything with skills or a siege weapon or cannon? When you’re needed to help defend another location under attack and undermanned? You’re working against team success.

Grinding “build X siege weapons”? You keep building arrow carts in the keep, taking supplies from the keep when your team has repeatedly warned everyone not to take those supplies? Not working towards the team goals.

Grinding “Killed X mesmers”? So rather than deal with the most immediate threat in a fight, you spend all your time looking for mesmers, and because you weren’t focusing on the people killing your commander or the force by the door (or healing your team), you lost your team objective or didn’t achieve your team goal? Once more, not so much a team player.

It doesn’t matter how they’re designed. The fanatic “must grind to whatever shiny thing is dangled in front of me” crowd will ignore the greater good for the benefit of their own selfish wants. Because they not only want the titles and shinies, they want them all. They don’t just want them all, they want to have them first. Because that, somehow, makes them better than other people in their mind. Meanwhile, their team suffers because a WvWvW spot that could’ve been filled by someone willing to fight to win is instead filled by someone just in WvWvW to grind titles and shinies. And it’s not just one slot, it’s a bunch of them.

Well, those people are already here annoying you. WvW is always going to have it’s share of these kinds of players.

Honestly, this seems a little far fetched. I understand your concern, but really each of those situations could either be solved – or aren’t problems at all.

The only difference would be instead of these people sitting in the jumping puzzle, they might actually come do something on the main map.

mcl.9240:

Why are you proposing this? By your argument, because people will become bored with the game without it.

Why would people grow bored? Because they are unable to feel fulfilled via internal motivation, i.e., personal goal-setting and subsequent attainment of those goals. By your argument, they need a virtual participation trophy for every aspect of WvWvW, lest they grow bored and wander off to greener pastures.

What constitutes internal motivation? Bettering oneself as a player. Learning all the intricacies of playing your profession of choice, maximizing your build, and becoming the best player you can be, without the need for external display of said achievement.

Why isn’t this sufficient? Beats me. Professor? Why isn’t that sufficient? Why will people grow bored and leave without something to grind? Why does everyone feel the burning urge to be treated like a special snowflake and a pretty pretty princess, to be told they are special and unique and that they deserve a reward just for trying?

Why is post-cap progression a bad idea, even if it’s just cosmetic? Even if there’s a way for people to opt-out of seeing it? Because rather than focusing on team objectives, they will become obsessed with the grind. They will forego team goals to focus on individual goals. They will stop trying to win for winning’s sake, and will instead start focusing on upping their K/D ratio (go ask FPS players how well that’s worked out for them; or just check the math and realize you can min-max K/D in ways other than being a superhuman killing machine that never dies, and those ways are much easier AND detrimental to team play), or whatever other stat they’re currently grinding for the sake of a shiny title or pretty dress. They will become more selfish and less focused on winning the match when the team’s goals conflict with their individual goals of achieving title X or shiny Y to demonstrate how good they are. Which is simply ridiculous, because — Western cultural norms aside — how good you are isn’t defined by your possessions, even when they’re virtual.

This is a good point, but one that isn’t based on the idea of cosmetic rewards so much as very badly designed metrics.

As long as individual rewards contribute towards team success, this is not an issue.

If I read this correctly, you are simply suggesting a continuous stream of aesthetic crap to achieve… with no bonuses to stats or “power level” of any kind.

If that is true, I 100% support it.

I was in the random sPvP map with the gates and lords, whatever it is called.

I was running from blue start to my left, the closest objective.

As I entered the point, a Thief jumped backwards off of the ledge, towards his keep.

I teleported to him with the Sword (MH) #2 skill, whatever it is called.

The pictures are the result of that.

Hsulf;

Yes, I agree that now is the time for careful, critical, cut-to-the-bone type decisions.

I think they should go ahead with their current plan for paid tourneys and paid servers, and then very carefully choose their next step.

And in my mind, this blog post wasn’t bad at all. A little disapointment I can understand because some player didn’t get his pet project named… but really if we all just take a step back and try to see where they are headed with this, that blog made perfect sense.

I am not a fan boy (I especially want to see these bugs/hacks fixed ASAP), but I do have faith that ANet gives a kitten about this game, and wants it to succeed. I have seen them thus far hold on to their stated design philosophy, and I respect that.

Enokitake.1742:

- no new modes
- no new maps
- no leaderboards
- no observer mode

You’re not alone. This disappointed me so much. I don’t want point cap, and honestly, I don’t enjoy it. I want team deathmatch from GW1 back. If point-cap is permanent GW2 pvp style, I’ll be highly disappointed.

Leaderboards and Spectator support are on the docket to be addressed – they told you that.
Modes & Maps will have to wait a while, because they are focused on Conquest right now. The reason is (and again, they TOLD you this) because they want a game mode that will be easy to spectate, commentate, and watch. Deathmatch is none of those things.

ShRNA.4376:

Rika.7249:

Ragnar Dragonfyre.1806:

ShRNA.4376:

Ragnar Dragonfyre.1806:

ShRNA.4376:

Ragnar Dragonfyre.1806:

World of Warcraft’s Honor system wasn’t even patched in until 8 months after launch. Battleground’s weren’t launched until a month after that. Wanting new maps or modes barely a month after launch is ridiculous.

Gamer’s these days. What the kitten? Have some patience. That game the majority of you are basing your expectations off of didn’t even have a PvP system in place at this stage in it’s life.

This is 2012 not 2005. GW2 don’t compete with 2005 WoW, it compete with 2012 WoW and many other modern games on the same market.

Hahahahahahahahahahaha!

That’s a good one. Do you do standup? I’d like to come to one of your shows.

lololololol
That is a bad one. It is hard for you to argue against simple facts, isn’t it?

Simple facts? It took WoW 5 years of development and then 8 years on top of that to generate the amount of content it has now. That’s a fact.

Your logic dictates that all new MMO’s have to spend 13 years in development before launching just so that they have enough content to compete with “current” MMO’s.

Sorry, but it’s not going to happen. Players need to check their expectations against reality. Unfortunately, technology has not yet advanced so far that game developers can pump out exponentially more content in a short enough timeframe to keep up with the ADHD generation.

Game content takes a lot of man hours to develop. Until procedural generation becomes reliable enough to put a bunch of people out of jobs, we have to “cope” with MMO’s all launching with less content than established MMO’s.

From a marketing-competition point of view, he’s right.
Realistically though, he’s wrong. You can’t live up to WoWs level in the first blow. Over time however, definitely!

The reality is: GW2 compete with 2012 WOW not 2005 WOW. If you lose to 2012 WOW, you lose. Doesn’t matter if you blow 2005 WOW out of water or what.

The reality is, GW2 and WoW aren’t even in competition.

They have vastly different design philosophies, and appeal to vastly different types of players.

If you feel like you can’t decide between WoW and GW2 because of content, then you will never be happy with GW2.

Hsulf.9370:

@cogbyrn

For a game to be an esport, people have to be able to make money from it by streaming, youtube, tourny winnings, sponsorships, whatever it may be.

Dota doesn’t have these retrictions in place, Gw2 does.

Therefore, even if private servers were opened, you wouldn’t get truely good teams until the money arrives, which won’t happens till they drop the money ball and people can actually make chedda from their product.

Till then we won’t have an esport. You’ll have a great game with private servers with no professional teams playing.

As soon as they drop the money bomb, which will be when the game is balanced, you may even see teams like fnatic and TSM showing up.

But even the most experienced promoters will have issues with the current T&C’s.

This is why comparing Gw2 to Dota, lol, or any competetive game at the moment pales into comparrison, and also why intoroducing private servers without lifting $$$ rectrictions won’t change the current feeling in the community.

This is true, and it is a shrewd insight.

But I would ask you… do you think it is wise for them to release the hounds (so to speak) before everything is ready? By waiting until they feel the structure is there and the meta is solid, they are hoping the first big eSport invasion will stick. If they don’t do that, they might never get a second chance at becoming an eSport.

ginzo.8792:

Sky.9347:

ginzo.8792:

so guild wars fan is trying to become part of the problem not part of the solution.. i would question why that makes you such a great fan.

and to your glib rebuttal to my post i would say this; you obviously are ignorant to how statistics are gathered or are willfully misunderstanding. it’s like this if you gather a SAMPLE of a population and ask them if they think it’s good or bad , you can then be fairly certain they reflect the population at large. depending how large the sample then you can also judge how accurate the mood of the population is.
so my point is if the forums are in fact a representative sample of the population then a large portion of the population isn’t happy.

only a fool or someone trying to be blind to reality would judge as you try to that EVERYONE who is unhappy is here saying so , thus everyone not here stating their unhappiness by default must be happy in the game.

i never claimed to know how large the percentage is that are unhappy with nightcapping , but I did say that it clearly must be VERY significant judging by this thread and the multitude tht were closed and deleted by moderators.
however you want to try to refute that by saying unless we have accurate numbers there is no problem.. which is simply delutional

Listen, I agree that these population mismatches are problematic and put a serious twist on what WvW could truly be… but this is just wrong.

The forums are not a representative sample, for several reasons. Chief among them in my opinion is the fact that they are self-selected. Only a certain type of person chooses to come to the forums at all, of that set a smaller subset chooses to make posts expressing an opinion. Of those that make posts, only some are coherent. Of those that make coherent posts, many repeat themselves multiple times in multiple places.

Taking that forum noise as representative of the game population is a big mistake. None of us have data that would enable us to do any sort of statistical polling with any type of confidence.

i disagree, i think they are representative , tho how much or how accurate is open to debate. waht is beyond debate is that this is THE burning issue with the game. after all this thread has more views and posts than the entire first page of the WvW section of the forum. So i call that evidence that there is no more important issue in WvW to be addressed.
now if like me you feel WvW is the key feature of the whole game for a large portion of its players , then u simply cannot escape the conclusion that it is the games biggest problem right now.
if this thread has now nearly 1000 posts , if even 200 of them are folk saying they are unhappy then there IS a problem because as a sample of the overall player base they must be mutiplied by a large factor to represent all those who feel unhappy who won’t visit the forums or move server , who will in fact just leave the game .
this is not the outcome ANet wants , and neither should we.

I agree that there seems to be enough empirical evidence to suggest that this is a potentially major problem.

I do not agree that over exaggerating things is productive or useful in this discussion.

Instead of trying to cite forum complaints as representative of the game population, which is patently flawed and possible false, why don’t we just talk about the empirical evidence which no-one can dispute?

Look at the match up scores. Look at the difference in participation between Friday night (after reset, before common “bedtime” for the server) compared with say… Wednesday evening. Compare information between queue times (which should generally indicate the level of interest when combined with overall server population) and WvW performance. Look at results. Look at servers that move up and get crushed, then move down and crush the opponents.

Most importantly – look at all of these very avid and passionate WvW players who are saying in one way or another – “this starts out fun, but quickly becomes very un-fun, and here’s why…”.

But don’t rely on these bullkitten ideas of statistics that anyone who works for ANet will see as chaff and worthy of being ignored.

I’m not trying to argue with you… I’m just saying help us make the case in an intelligent way and lend some credibility to our cause.

Angry Flying Squirrel.3041:

Sky.9347:

Well I can see that your priorities are different in this post than theirs, but really…

You seem to think “balance” is the utmost pressing issue right now.
ANet seems to think giving more experienced/skilled players a place to play, thus separating them from newer or less skillful players is the utmost pressing issue right now.

Seems like two takes on the same problem.

You seem to think rank (leaderboards) are more important than custom arenas.
ANet seems to think custom arenas are more important than leaderboards.

They said they know leaderboards, spectating, streaming are important. They said “we are listening”. They said they would love to say more but they just can’t, yet.

So, outside of the fact that you disagree with their priority, how is your post that different? A lot of the stuff you put in your post has already been addressed by ANet, and the blog just focused on the immediate future.

You do understand that for “pro-teams” to even play in the Paid Tournies they have to either pay RM to do so or they have to play Free Tournies. Adding Paid Tournies will in no way separate the two groups.

You can’t have competitive pvp with out a ranking system. It just will not work. Do you really think the “pro-teams” are going to be happy crushing bad teams all the time in Paid Tournies? Do you think its going to be fun for the middle of the ground teams to play teams that are way better than them? How do you get better if you don’t play teams of equal level. Its like asking high school teams to play in the NFL, and then telling them they suck because they don’t get better. You don’t become a better player by getting crushed, you get better by playing vs equal skills players. It gives you time to see what your doing what the other players are doing and gives you a means of seeing improvement.

Yes, I understand. But really by the time a “pro-team” is ready for paid tournaments, they should have quite a few tickets saved up from all the other PvP they’ve done. And if they are that good, they will likely win often. And if they are getting crushed, they will go back to free tournaments to practice and get more tickets. And if they are doing the crushing they will rent a server (maybe even with their winnings?!) and challenge other good teams for some serious practice/bragging rights.

Yea, rank is important. So is spectating (probably my most desired feature atm). But seriously ANet has limited resources and they have made a decision to prioritize certain things. Let’s not be petulant.

Well I can see that your priorities are different in this post than theirs, but really…

You seem to think “balance” is the utmost pressing issue right now.
ANet seems to think giving more experienced/skilled players a place to play, thus separating them from newer or less skillful players is the utmost pressing issue right now.

Seems like two takes on the same problem.

You seem to think rank (leaderboards) are more important than custom arenas.
ANet seems to think custom arenas are more important than leaderboards.

They said they know leaderboards, spectating, streaming are important. They said “we are listening”. They said they would love to say more but they just can’t, yet.

So, outside of the fact that you disagree with their priority, how is your post that different? A lot of the stuff you put in your post has already been addressed by ANet, and the blog just focused on the immediate future.

I guess I don’t really see how what you wrote and what they wrote were so different that it warranted ANOTHER thread on the subject.

EDIT: The only difference may be the balance paragraph, and even still I think they said the same thing but with a positive spin on it.

1. Bug Fixes, wherever and whenever they are discovered
2. Paid Tournaments and/or Match-Making & Rank
3. Spectator Mode
4. Custom Arenas
5. More maps/modes/options

There was so much chest thumping bravado about how HoD wins because they have a “warrior spirit” that noone else did. So many people said, HoD just never gives up and that’s why we are #1!

Funny how that works out.

Maybe we will finally get a chance to do a SBI/JQ/ET match soon. JQ seems to have inherited a ton of WvW players in the last week or so, I am curious to get another chance to fight them.

ginzo.8792:

so guild wars fan is trying to become part of the problem not part of the solution.. i would question why that makes you such a great fan.

and to your glib rebuttal to my post i would say this; you obviously are ignorant to how statistics are gathered or are willfully misunderstanding. it’s like this if you gather a SAMPLE of a population and ask them if they think it’s good or bad , you can then be fairly certain they reflect the population at large. depending how large the sample then you can also judge how accurate the mood of the population is.
so my point is if the forums are in fact a representative sample of the population then a large portion of the population isn’t happy.

only a fool or someone trying to be blind to reality would judge as you try to that EVERYONE who is unhappy is here saying so , thus everyone not here stating their unhappiness by default must be happy in the game.

i never claimed to know how large the percentage is that are unhappy with nightcapping , but I did say that it clearly must be VERY significant judging by this thread and the multitude tht were closed and deleted by moderators.
however you want to try to refute that by saying unless we have accurate numbers there is no problem.. which is simply delutional

Listen, I agree that these population mismatches are problematic and put a serious twist on what WvW could truly be… but this is just wrong.

The forums are not a representative sample, for several reasons. Chief among them in my opinion is the fact that they are self-selected. Only a certain type of person chooses to come to the forums at all, of that set a smaller subset chooses to make posts expressing an opinion. Of those that make posts, only some are coherent. Of those that make coherent posts, many repeat themselves multiple times in multiple places.

Taking that forum noise as representative of the game population is a big mistake. None of us have data that would enable us to do any sort of statistical polling with any type of confidence.

Quote isn’t working, but this is for Xaximbo:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Poison

“Deals damage every second; heal potency decreased by 33%; stacks duration.”

And nobody can remove all conditions, all the time.

Hsulf.9370:

@Almostdaft

Dude, it’s not that we have hairy balls of tears dripping down our chin. It’s simply that people get bored of content, and let’s face it, we don’t have much of it.

Some people deal with boredom in different ways, some write OMGAD posts. Some write more coherent posts on forums, some have unbelievable patience.

Fact is, a lot of people will stop playing until updates occur. I don’t think anet want this, so to stop this they need to prioritise what updates they do for spvp, and I don’t think the current proposed updates will stop the flagging spvp playerbases’ boredom.

This seems like a legit way to word your complaint.

Basically, you disagree with ANet’s priority schedule. I get that. Carry on.

Xaximbo.2763:

i will be brief. I am 0 motivated to do PvP without a ranking system that gives me rewards tied to the rank. Paid tournaments is free tournaments with better rewards end of the story.

What kind of rewards? Isn’t there already a rank system with aesthetic rewards tied to that rank?

Fantom.9217:

No one here is complaining about stat progression in PVP…. literally no one.

I have seen maybe 2 people ask for that in all the time that I’ve been following GW2. And they were both heavily shot down by the vast majority of the community.

The problem that the majority of the community has is that PVP is unfinished as hell, and that ArenaNet isn’t working fast enough.

I’m sorry, but you don’t get an endless pass on no feature implementation just because “you’re working on it.” There is a certain development speed that is expected in ANY project, software or otherwise. ArenaNet is NOT meeting that speed requirement right now.

edit:

Sky.9347:

What you don’t understand is that GW2 was likely not a good match for a great deal of those people.

People that want a ranking/ladder/leaderboard/matchmaking and spectator mode right now are NOT unsuited for GW2. Saying that this isn’t the game for them is absurd.

I understand what you’re saying, and I used the stat progression as an easy example.

More to the point: ANet has stated they will take a slower approach to development, and they are not ignoring PvE and WvW either. They have said they have a small development team (with the pros and cons of such), and so certain things will take time.

Combine that with the fact that there is no monthly fee, and people are free to leave and return when these features ARE implemented.

So, this vision… this philosophy requires some patience on the part of the players. If you can’t muster that patience now, 2 months from release, then their development speed will likely never satisfy you.

Maybe you think I am being selfish, and that’s fine. What I am trying to say to you is: either be patient, or go play elsewhere until what you feel is necessary is released.

PS – Talking about majority here is ineffective because you do not have any data to lend credence to your statement. ANet has that data, and I am sure they are watching participation rates across PvP, PvE, and WvW. I’m also sure they will use that data to allocate resources as needed.

TL;DR – Calm down.

Fantom.9217:

almostdaft.4319:

and thus Guild Wars 2 will share the same, glorious fate of that Guild Wars 1 did.
0% complainers, %100 players.
and it was a beautiful fate, indeed.

I really really hate people that don’t care about a shrinking community. Maybe YOU would be happy with a single player game because you’re the last person on earth that enjoys the game, but no one else is.

I’m sorry, but it’s incredibly selfish to not care that the majority of your fellow players (or player base from the perspective of a developer) is unhappy with the status quo and are quitting like flies.

What you don’t understand is that GW2 was likely not a good match for a great deal of those people.

For example… there is a huge crowd that clamors for “gear progression” of some sort or another in PvP. They claim they love the game, but will quit if they don’t get their way. They go on and on about how other “modern” MMOs all do it, and if GW2 doesn’t do it, it will just end up being a dead game that nobody cares about.

It’s probably best those people just leave now. Even if they are a significant portion of the population, their desires for the game run contrary to the stated vision the developers are working towards.

So, in a lot of cases, it is not wise for the developer to obey the posters on the forums. In a lot of cases, these players would never be happy with GW2, and would only serve to turn it into another game entirely.

This is not a subscription based game, and therefore ANet is far less beholden to the whims of a fickle month-to-month player base.

shalmont.2539:

a lot of people are not leaving, they are getting endless load screen, and when they get back on, forget what number they were on, its happened to me more than 20 times last night.

This is also true.

When I play hot-join I am usually testing out a new build or generally working on my timing.

The games don’t stop, and although most of the time I like to wait between matches to leave… sometimes I just split to tweak my build/gear or for RL reasons, or to go make a whiskey, or just because I feel like it.

That’s the whole point of it though, I thought. Jump in and out as you will, test out new builds and professions, and generally just fight against people where there isn’t much at stake.

For tPvP, there should be no leaving until the end. For random sPvP, who cares?

Xaximbo,

Your post is borderline useful feedback. Instead of coming at this from a negative “it’s so horrible wah wah” perspective, why don’t you detail the builds this proposed team of 5 is using.

That’s right… do the research, and list the builds for all 5.

THEN we can all have a theory crafting discussion, and see what we can come up with as a counter team… or at least a team that can deal with the synergy you claim is “faceroll”.

And if in that discussion we can see that this 5 man team you propose really is that awesome… then, maybe ANet will pay attention.

As it stands, this is just more QQ.

I think the blog post was the best they could do at this point.

It seems to me like ANet has the long term success of this game in mind, and despite the fact that a lot of you guys are going chicken little, they are determined to carefully and continuously plod ahead.

I imagine the ability to spectate matches will be released about the time they feel they have the meta-game in a good place. Right now people are still exploring builds and synergies, and the meta is in a very volatile and new place.

I mainly play Guardian, and I think the recent nerfs to retaliation were warranted and wise.

I appreciate that features aren’t hyped to oblivion when they know things might change. There is no one person who has a monopoly on directing company resources, and so they can’t be 100% certain of where those assets might be tomorrow, much less 2 weeks from now.

Good blog. We’re all anxious and excited to hear more, and to see the details when they are ready. Don’t worry about these high-stress types who claim you must release things RIGHT NOW or suffer a SLOW AND PAINFUL DEATH. They will never be satisfied, and will likely leave the game for something else anyway.

Rpgtabbycat.5869:

Unfortunately I don’t have screen captures of this. But our team had just captured Eskalion Hills (or whatever it’s called – EH) keep and then as a skeleton crew we set about setting up a few siege items. Suddenly inside was the red team, who quickly wiped us out and proceeded to knock down the gates for the rest of their team to come through and reclaim the keep.

Are mesmers supposed to be able to port into keeps like that without anyone knocking down walls or doors? Or is this an exploit?

This happened today on the Tarnished Coast/ Dragonbrand/ Crystal Desert battle.

Check for mesmers.

Depends on the environment. If you are talking about a big empty field of killing, the Elementalists will win. If instead this is something like a WvW map with sneaky paths, caves, and other things I believe the Mesmers will win.

I know HoD recently lost a lot of WvW players, but if this is anything like every other week Tuesday will be the nail in the coffin.

Fall behind on weekend (fair enough, they have a huge target on their back), and by Tuesday their lead is insurmountable and they are nearly all-capping every night.

I will be interested to see what happens with HoD this week after TA broke up.

Yea, SBI sort of gave up last week. War weariness, I think.

Even still, SBI has far too much coverage and far too many dedicated WvW players/guilds to be beaten in Tier 2, at least in my estimation.

Prove me wrong!

And BTW, from my perspective, Blackgate has got some grit.

Wow normally these threads are full of server vs. server trolling, but this one is filled with server vs. itself trolling!

Keepin’ it classy.