Guild Wars 2

ArcTheFallen.7682:

I feel sorry for Anet. Their initial fanbase turn on them so easily.

No, this is wrong.

I defend ANet to hell and back. I accept their balance changes, even when they are annoying. I spend money in the Gem Shop just to make sure they maintain a healthy revenue stream. I tolerate bugs, glitches, and hackers.

Hell, I even nodded and accepted when they outright REMOVED orbs from WvW because fixing them was more difficult than expected.

But this is potentially a deal breaker.

It remains to be seen what their intention and purpose is, and how this will be implemented. This could be all for naught – or it could be the end of GW2 for a lot of people.

Some people say… “well its only +1%, so it’s basically optional”.
I think you don’t truly understand the gravity of the issue for us whom think this really does matters.

Essence Snow.3194:

Jestunhi.7429:

Essence Snow.3194:

1st time….Paid advantages…this was side-stepped by calling them “conveniences”. The level of advantage is/was irrelevant. It’s the fact that they said there wouldn’t be any, but in time they were added.

Convinience items != power.

Is there anything in the cash shop that would effect the result of a duel between 2 otherwise equally geared, specced & skilled level 80’s?

Armor booster, strength booster, rejuvenation booster, speed boosters, etc are all available via BLCs. They are minimal 5%, but that is besides the point as well as not being in pvp is besides the point. The point is they are there when we were told they wouldn’t.

Oh… that makes sense then.

I mean, even though it has absolutely NO BEARING on PVP of ANY SORT whatsoever… it’s clearly a broken promise.

MrLee.6892:

Jestunhi.7429:

MrLee.6892:

Rift is doing just fine….

SWTOR certainly isn’t.

I reactivated the other day to have a quick look at how it had progressed and there is a tiny list of servers after many server merges.

Whether it’s still profitable is another story of course. Less players means smaller costs for servers, bandwidth, customer support, etc.

I didn’t say anythiing about SWTOR though… *but they are going F2P this Thursday so they will be getting a population boom and it might even save it!

Rift still is doing quite well. Heck so is Lord of the Rings Online because of their successful F2P model.

So there are “WoW Clones” out there and doing well.
Just sayin!

That really depends on what you mean by “doing well”.

Everybody knows that Rift is just a place for people who have grown to despise Blizzard, but still love WoW. It has no unique identity.

All F2P games will retain some kind of player base.

souldonkey.9534:

cesmode.4257:

souldonkey.9534:

cesmode.4257:

Where is your source?

The blog post on the website:

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/releases/november-2012/#the-lost-shores

You quoted something that is a big more specific than whats on that page. Within this current thread they said they would be releasing a blogpost explaining their intentions (maybe about 45 minutes ago they said this). Awaiting THAT blogpost to explain what exactly Ascended gear is…

No…? I quoted exactly word for word what is on that page under the “highlights” section.

I’m not seeing anything on that page. People have linked it all day, but I still don’t see anything except a one line subheadline thing and three pictures.

Stephane Lo Presti.7258:

Hi everyone,

We’re going to publish a blogpost about the new ascended items on the Guild Wars 2 website. This should answer most of the community’s questions before the content is live this weekend.

Thanks for your patience!

Alright then. I will reserve judgement until reading and thinking very carefully about whatever is written therein.

I’ve thus far always been happy with ANet decisions regarding this game, and I hold out hope that I will be pleasantly surprised again today.

You guys should know though… this blog post could be the most important one you’ve ever released in the history of GW2, and may in fact determine the future success of this game.

No pressure! Good luck!

MrLee.6892:

Dynheart.5402:

Giki.7901:

So they added armor that is slightly better than exotic, who cares?! It gives us something else to do other than grind Orr for legendarys, thank you ArenaNet for making this change I think it gives many people another reason for wanting to do this dungeon, making armor look “cool” is just not cutting it anymore, what if you don’t necessarily love the look of the armor, your just not going to do the dungeon? That does not make sense, there needs to be another incentive for doing high level end content.
Quit crying and enjoy this amazing game called Guild Wars 2

I agree. But people would rather do nothing/be stuck with 1000hp/100stats (made up stats..you get the idea) for all eternity…just because it was like that in GW1.

GW2 is a totally different beast. It’s an actual MMO. Count how many MMO’s stuck to their original vision from launch? I’ve played 11 in my lifetime…none stuck to their guns. Some tried to, but failed. But these games evolve over time. It’s just how it is.

We wanted GW2 to be an MMO. We get all the pros, and the cons along with it. Enjoy the ride…or don’t.

Yes another person who gets it! GW2 is supposed to evolve!! Even though some people think this is ok.

This is an MMO! Things change good or bad. You have to accept it or leave. (And if you leave there isn’t one MMO out there that will have gear stay the same thru out it’s lifetime).

Which is precisely WHY GW2 is such a big deal.

If they fail to do it too, then I guess guys like me just don’t play MMOs anymore.

Rizla.1023:

They give you something to work towards and you all take a temper tantrum. Nice to see the kinda people i’m playing along with.
What if this was in at launch would any of you complained that there was an extra tier of gear? NO!!!!!!

If this was in at launch, then it wouldn’t have been considered a “treadmill”.

The problem is that this now creates a moving target for end game gear. How many times will it move? A great many people love GW and GW2 because there was a finite stat progression. This choice, granted we have very limited information, seems to present a complete reversal of that philosophy.

It hopefully is just a misunderstood concept, but based on what little we have now (which is their fault, not ours) this really feels like a betrayal… a bait & switch.

I think some clarification on what exactly this will be is very important right now ANet.

Come on, show us that you still “get it” and this was some well crafted dungeon based mini-game with mini-game specific gear progression or something.

Or, at least have the testicular fortitude to tell us you’ve changed your minds and have decided to become the next ex-MMO for a lot of people.

Whoa… wait a minute here.

ArenaNet – I want to be perfectly clear. This is a very slippery slope, and I (and many like me) will not hesitate to drop this game like a bad habit if you introduce new tiers of gear.

I will wait and see how the implementation of this is conducted, but you all need to understand the gravity of what you are about to do.

“Speaking of rewards, the Fractals of the Mist Dungeon will introduce the new ‘Ascended’ item type. This type is a bit more powerful than the Exotic quality items currently found in the game. There will only be a couple of Ascended quality items available initially, but some of the rarer Ascended items will also feature a new Infusion slot that will make players even more powerful so that they can tackle new challenges that ArenaNet plans to throw at them as they continue to expand on the dungeon over the coming months and years.”

Say what? I know nobody cares about my future purchasing habits or anything… but I have been a very vocal supporter of this game since the Betas, putting my reputation with gamer friends and my hard earned cash on the line to support Guild Wars 2… and I swear to you, when I read this I almost instantly decided to end my GW2 participation.

Understand what you are about to do, and make your choice very – VERY carefully here. I can’t speak for everyone, but I can speak for a few of them. We will leave and will never return.

PS – I am actually sort of sad and disappointed with you all right now. What a shame.

This really isn’t an issue right now, for a multitude of reasons.

I suggest you stick with one server, and play WvW a lot more regularly.

I promise you this problem will solve itself, from your personal perspective.

EDIT: I like commas.

Kuroin.1703:

Sky.9347:

tOss.9024:

TheGuy.3568:

tOss.9024:

Sky.9347:

tOss.9024:

TheGuy.3568:

Its OP what else can be said. Same bs we have seen in every mmo since the start. We can argue here on how to counter, and how only good players can counter this, and regale each other in stories about how good we each are, and how great we are at countering the BS. That doesn’t change the fact its OP bullkitten now does it?

I love my P/D thief and blah blah I’m so good in pvp with it. Fact is if you use stealth than burst is a no no and if you have burst stealth should be a no no. I find it funny that the mmo that has seen the most amount of attention to detail and design in the last 5 years has failed to realize rule number one. Nerf the invisibility, burst, and/or stun lock in beta.

Say the OP sucks maybe hes not a good pvper it doesn’t change the fact that so many run this same kitteny build and everyone acts like they don’t know why. I scoff at any attempt to defend this. The quicker we get this nerf over with the quicker we get back to demanding the bugs be fixed and that the classes that actually need help get it.

There are tons of classes in other mmos with stealth and burst, usually the stealth helps them survive and get close enough to do their burst because they melt when you focus them. (this holds true here in gw2 as well)
And, if you can come up with many ways to counter it how exactly is it OP? Overpowered means unbeatable, uncounterable, if it meant anything less the word Over would be different. The word overpowered as gotten thrown around so much in recent years that its used to describe “somewhat tough to beat.”

But that isn’t true, because GW2 has Dodge. A well timed (or lucky) dodge can negate ANY amount of damage.

If we used your reasoning, the simple fact that dodging existed would mean it was technically impossible for anything to ever be too strong.

I said if there are several ways to counter it, not only if you could dodge it. Backstab can be countered with protection, gearing, other forms of damage mitigation, dodge, general situational awareness, distance gaining abilities+heal, there are a lot of options. The fact that dodge exists simply makes it even easier to deal with front loaded damage, it doesn’t harm balance.
Instead of picking at an argument to spin something your way, perhaps it’s best to read a post in it’s entirety and think critically before responding.

Like I said in OP….you know what why rehash this in a years time well be having this same conversation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URQE8aGSSCU

Like I have said before it’s just history.

There are a lot of fundamental differences between a rogue and thief, and between WoW and Guild Wars in regards to balance.
Edit to respond to yours: One backstab build vs. every other? I’m not sure what you mean here, please elaborate. Backstab, if this is what you’re implying, is not successful against every build. Just because you, and some others, are having trouble countering the build doesn’t mean the people don’t “get it.” It simply means that some don’t have problems with it, and they are trying to explain why they don’t. The main issue here, in my opinion, is people sticking their fingers in their ears and yelling, “lalalala it’s op, I’m right you’re wrong lalalalaicanthearyou.”

The same could be said of the other side in the debate.

Just because there are ways to avoid being instantly killed, doesn’t mean such massive burst capability is good for the game

Reread that sentence please, so that you can understand the gravity of this situation.

So explain to me why the thief burst is not ok while other classes burst is? 100b cool yes?

Because other burst requires setup.
If it’s ever the case that this isn’t true, then I don’t think it’s good for the game.
Just my opinion, obviously.

Surely there is a simple way to reduce the top end damage of backstab while maintaining the mid-range so it doesn’t become useless.

@tOss
“it’s not impossible to stand up against” – “I will admit the example was not the best”

Cover Girl.2580:

Arani.9057:

Why are the SBI not completely insulted that JQ is “just giving” you first place so we can reside in second place? Every-time someone says that crap it’s not insulting JQ it’s saying SBI doesn’t deserve their spot because JQ could just take it if we wanted it… I know it’s cuz SBI is Loling all over the place of course rhetorical question… Why can’t some peeps just say GG win or lose and be happy with the competition and experience, especially in a free to play game lol.

Well, probably because BG is used to steamrolling thru the other tiers and then being able to blast them on the forums and brag how good they are at this game and how they are blowing away SBI and JQ their first 3 days here. Now that they are being forced to play chess, and not bloody knuckles, they pack their toys up and hit the forums to wage war there.

I think this was a brilliant way to put it, honestly. +1

“Unfortunately for them, not enough transferred, and the end result was that both servers were left weakened and deso is crushing them.”

I wager that isn’t the reason it failed.

This seems like a problem that solved itself, which means it isn’t really a problem at all?

Can I just state for the record that this is Monday of a Friday – Friday match.

IomegadriveOne.5291:

Did you idiots seriously just come in here with one instance of a POSSIBLE 2v1 on SBI? Please. I would say 90% of the time you guys and JQ have done nothing to each other. Except for the small group of people that actually have a sense of dignity. This week so far has been hilarious. SBI saying every post that doesn’t worship them is a crying post. Ignoring proof of constant 2v1. In fact, while I was making this post I decided to take a screenshot for the hell of it. Literally this map is about 50% divided between SBI and JQ. EBG is about 50% pushing up on BG. BGBL is about 50% divided pushing up on BG. SBI has most of their BL and so does JQ. I am sorry but this 100% points to an obvious 2v1 scenario. Like someone said earlier. Do you guys have no shame at all?

Here is the pic:

HAHAHAHA

Okay, so let’s just pretend you’re right.

SBI & JQ have both agreed that BG is unworthy of T1, and decided to fully cooperate to boot you from the tier.

And now what? Ball’s in your court.

PS – The actual truth is what everyone knows, and Jed eloquently explained earlier. Your weakness is showing (for whatever reason, it doesn’t matter), and thus you will continue to be the easiest source of points until that ceases to be true.

tOss.9024:

TheGuy.3568:

tOss.9024:

Sky.9347:

tOss.9024:

TheGuy.3568:

Its OP what else can be said. Same bs we have seen in every mmo since the start. We can argue here on how to counter, and how only good players can counter this, and regale each other in stories about how good we each are, and how great we are at countering the BS. That doesn’t change the fact its OP bullkitten now does it?

I love my P/D thief and blah blah I’m so good in pvp with it. Fact is if you use stealth than burst is a no no and if you have burst stealth should be a no no. I find it funny that the mmo that has seen the most amount of attention to detail and design in the last 5 years has failed to realize rule number one. Nerf the invisibility, burst, and/or stun lock in beta.

Say the OP sucks maybe hes not a good pvper it doesn’t change the fact that so many run this same kitteny build and everyone acts like they don’t know why. I scoff at any attempt to defend this. The quicker we get this nerf over with the quicker we get back to demanding the bugs be fixed and that the classes that actually need help get it.

There are tons of classes in other mmos with stealth and burst, usually the stealth helps them survive and get close enough to do their burst because they melt when you focus them. (this holds true here in gw2 as well)
And, if you can come up with many ways to counter it how exactly is it OP? Overpowered means unbeatable, uncounterable, if it meant anything less the word Over would be different. The word overpowered as gotten thrown around so much in recent years that its used to describe “somewhat tough to beat.”

But that isn’t true, because GW2 has Dodge. A well timed (or lucky) dodge can negate ANY amount of damage.

If we used your reasoning, the simple fact that dodging existed would mean it was technically impossible for anything to ever be too strong.

I said if there are several ways to counter it, not only if you could dodge it. Backstab can be countered with protection, gearing, other forms of damage mitigation, dodge, general situational awareness, distance gaining abilities+heal, there are a lot of options. The fact that dodge exists simply makes it even easier to deal with front loaded damage, it doesn’t harm balance.
Instead of picking at an argument to spin something your way, perhaps it’s best to read a post in it’s entirety and think critically before responding.

Like I said in OP….you know what why rehash this in a years time well be having this same conversation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URQE8aGSSCU

Like I have said before it’s just history.

There are a lot of fundamental differences between a rogue and thief, and between WoW and Guild Wars in regards to balance.
Edit to respond to yours: One backstab build vs. every other? I’m not sure what you mean here, please elaborate. Backstab, if this is what you’re implying, is not successful against every build. Just because you, and some others, are having trouble countering the build doesn’t mean the people don’t “get it.” It simply means that some don’t have problems with it, and they are trying to explain why they don’t. The main issue here, in my opinion, is people sticking their fingers in their ears and yelling, “lalalala it’s op, I’m right you’re wrong lalalalaicanthearyou.”

The same could be said of the other side in the debate.

Just because there are ways to avoid being instantly killed, doesn’t mean such massive burst capability is good for the game

Reread that sentence please, so that you can understand the gravity of this situation.

Dooger,

I would argue that names do not have a place in WvW, and that the choice to exclude them as much as possible was a good one that will only strengthen the game.

If you include names, server cohesion means nothing. The game will degrade over time, and WvW will cease to be about server warfare in favor of gank squad competitions.

dooger.2640:

Sky.9347:

To the enemy, you are just one of many opponents.
To your allies, your name and reputation is yours to mold.

If you want the trash talking elitist chest thumping bravado nonsense, go to sPvP and earn your stripes.

WvW is about communities waging war, not rambo winning battles.

Whooooosh.

I am talking teams being able to play against other good players and be able to recruit other good players.

PvA players will not play for much past getting leveled and geared up.

NFL is about teams, but its great performances by great players that are fun to watch.

What you want already exists. It’s called Tournament PvP. You can even build a whole guild around it.

WvW is designed to keep the focus on the Server, and beneath that the Guild (via guild tags). Individual recognition serves no purpose in WvW, and the inclusion of names would make nothing better.

tOss.9024:

TheGuy.3568:

Its OP what else can be said. Same bs we have seen in every mmo since the start. We can argue here on how to counter, and how only good players can counter this, and regale each other in stories about how good we each are, and how great we are at countering the BS. That doesn’t change the fact its OP bullkitten now does it?

I love my P/D thief and blah blah I’m so good in pvp with it. Fact is if you use stealth than burst is a no no and if you have burst stealth should be a no no. I find it funny that the mmo that has seen the most amount of attention to detail and design in the last 5 years has failed to realize rule number one. Nerf the invisibility, burst, and/or stun lock in beta.

Say the OP sucks maybe hes not a good pvper it doesn’t change the fact that so many run this same kitteny build and everyone acts like they don’t know why. I scoff at any attempt to defend this. The quicker we get this nerf over with the quicker we get back to demanding the bugs be fixed and that the classes that actually need help get it.

There are tons of classes in other mmos with stealth and burst, usually the stealth helps them survive and get close enough to do their burst because they melt when you focus them. (this holds true here in gw2 as well)
And, if you can come up with many ways to counter it how exactly is it OP? Overpowered means unbeatable, uncounterable, if it meant anything less the word Over would be different. The word overpowered as gotten thrown around so much in recent years that its used to describe “somewhat tough to beat.”

But that isn’t true, because GW2 has Dodge. A well timed (or lucky) dodge can negate ANY amount of damage.

If we used your reasoning, the simple fact that dodging existed would mean it was technically impossible for anything to ever be too strong.

“So my question is: what do you mean by “rush of enemies who live in a part of the world where they aren’t checking their watches to see if the sun is about to rise”?”

In my understanding, he is referring to people who are playing in a much different geographical location than you, whoever and wherever you are.

In short – the community has fixed a developer mistake by turning NA and EU servers into International servers. This is the only way to keep tier 1, 2, and 3 in both ladders competitive.

To the enemy, you are just one of many opponents.
To your allies, your name and reputation is yours to mold.

If you want the trash talking elitist chest thumping bravado nonsense, go to sPvP and earn your stripes.

WvW is about communities waging war, not rambo winning battles.

I’m struggling to understand how anyone can complain about 2v1 in a 3 way fight.

I mean… by the very definition of 3 way fight, isn’t it IMPOSSIBLE not to 2v1 someone at all times?

With the clarification of your question, my opinion is that 5v5 is perfect for the type of PvP you’re looking for. And, I think 8v8 is a mess.

WvW is very different though, and my answer would be far different in that context.

The answer to your question, in my opinion, is entirely dependent on build makeups.

And regarding your theory about scaling:

AoE damage has mechanical limits, which are strict.
AoE boons/heals have limits, but they are far less strict.

This is not a “terrible issue”.

Raehvyn.4530:

Typically that is because people refuse to stack up. They wander around aimlessly. I don’t like the mechanic aspect but I find that the offense isn’t so much with the thieves as much as an unwillingness and with the Koreans on SBI a language barrier preventing people from knowing to or doing the stacking up. Not really sure what the solution for that would be though.

Learn Korean?

Seriously though, the rendering bug needs to be fixed ASAP.
Mesmers and their Portals are fine, though. I like what they bring to WvW, even when fighting against them.

Daays.4317:

Solving the symptoms.

Let’s look at PvP favoring either burst classes or bunkers.

Burst classes exist because you need to take out people quickly to control a point. You jump in, drop someone, then exit and fight on the outskirts. You also need them to drop bunkers quickly to take the point.

Bunkers exist because you need someone on the point who can’t die quickly, but can knockback. A bunker doesn’t need damage. Just survivability.

All of this stems from the current design of Conquest Mode. One person on a point and no one can cap it. Doesn’t matter if your team has more players there, as long as one person is on the point, you can’t cap.

Change that to a team cap system and guess what.

Burst classes will die down because you need players on the point and while you have the potential to drop someone, getting off the point hinders your teams ability to cap. You need to be able to take and dish damage, not just dish.
Bunker classes will die down because there’s no point in dying slowly 1v2 when they’re capping the point from you. You need to be able to absorb and dish damage, not just absorb.

The current game design is the problem. Not bunkers. Not burst. Not protection. Not haste. Until you’re required to go a more balanced spec, it will be either one or the other.

Daays,

We argue so often, that I thought I should comment on this.

I agree with you.

Except, ANet will need to decide which way they want to go with that. I prefer a game full of more balanced builds than one full of extreme builds.

Ferris Bewler.9706:

I am going to hate even putting my 2 cents in here because most people will trash talk. But I wanted to share the last 6 days of wvwvw in this battle. I understand there are no alliances between any of the 3 servers but there are facts that I have seen 1st hand that would tend to compliment otherwise:

1: BG attacks a JQ tower and SBI hits one of our towers on the oposite side of the map at the EXACT same time ( 3 different maps 4 different days about 5-6 times while i played this happened) we will just say it was really great timing by SBI all 6 times..?.?

2: BG borderland garrison getting attacked by both SBI and JQ again at the EXACT same time from both sides while passing up all supply keeps and towers outside the garrison that were also owned by BG.

3: 3 days straight Sun-Tues on 3 different maps for 8 hours i was on these maps and not 1 single time in 3 days did JQ and SBI EVER attack any castles, keeps, or any other important structure other than supply camps from each other. Only focus for both of your servers was Blackgate.

4: And finally this is what sold me on this notion, BG goes to siege a JQ castle 2 different maps for about 3 hours and SBI patrols LITERALLY come up behind BG at JQs gates and wipe us out. HERE’S the kicker, JQs gate was at 15%…… and after SBI wiped Blackgate out they turned around and walked away leaving a JQ keep with a 15% gate untouched…. i personally witnessed this 4 times in 1 day. ALl you had to do was cough and the gate goes down and the keeps basically yours, but you turned and walked away. No other battles mind you were on the map at all.. i mean ZEEERO.

I am not saying anything about a 2 vs 1 type situation but it is now apparent that when BG is on a map and is a threat,, there seems to be an understanding from both of your servers that BG is the target at all costs,and you dont attack the other server till BG is gone or no longer a threat.

Im totally cool with that now that we understand how your 2 servers work we can make arrangements and prepare for it for the next time, I really think it just caught BG off guard to really think that you 2 wont attack each other AT ALL if Blackgate is on the map and being a threat…. Dont get me wrong I know that once BG is off of a map or isnt a threat…. you guys beat the snot out of each other, but NEVER not 1 time in 5-6 days in 4 maps did you EVER go after each other if Blackgate was a threat. SO this isnt a gripe session, just understand that we know how its going to go from now on with you guys so I dont think it play out the same again.

commence with the debauchery.

Heh.

Over the course of a 10,000 minute fight there will be many minutes where you are being attacked by both enemies at once.
When you are currently in first place on the scoreboard, that frequency will almost certainly increase.

That’s good, because those sharks swarm and hit like a truck.

I have probably missed a thousand loot bags by now. All the dodging, diving, ducking, dipping, and dodging combined with constantly watching the battle field means that loot bags aren’t even kind of a priority.

I really hope they figure something else out for this. It is very, very annoying.

Anytime.

And BTW – I’m glad to hear there is a lot of arguing on BG WvW chat. ;-)

There is a crossed swords symbol at the top left of your screen. Click it & win.

Denim Samurai.2379:

good temporary solution

I agree with this.

But please let this be temporary. I enjoy the idea of the orbs, and the way they affect overall server strategy.

Archaon.6245:

So that mesmer rupts are not fair cause monk has corundum on…mez knows they are coming, it’s not during real pvp and so on…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IuE-UE_Oe8M

so what about this? In a real situation vs a real opponent and with ranger…and just for you to know pd is istant but ranger rupts are not due to the arrow flying time, in fact the ranger had to come as close as possible to the monk….what’s you excuse here?

Yeah… so, a couple things.

1) Even the comments on that video point out that it is staged and impractical.
2) Quite a few of those were not 0.5 second casts.
3) In the time it takes for 1 instant cast interrupt on a 1 second cast, you would already be dead.
4) Disregarding ALL of that, the title of the video is “best ranger in the game” which implies that this “ability” is very rare among PvP players.
5) And once again… comparing the speed of interrupts on spell casts to a teleport/stealth/venom/burst for 70-100% of your life is disingenuous.

These videos don’t help your argument.

@ Ashanor & Daays,

These were two really good posts. Thank you both for elevating the discussion.

I agree that your proposal may be better than mine, Ashanor. Again, I was only thinking out loud there.

Daays, I say that thieves might have the best mobility because I am looking at the entire package, both in and out of combat. Again, this is debatable because there are so many factors and metrics possible that we would have to carefully frame the discussion in order to come up with a real winner. Your analysis here is also astute on the backstab situation. It may very well be due to what you’re saying – but I’m not sure that would change the opener being potentially fatal with very little risk involved.

All in all, I am glad to see you recognize that there is something amiss with the situation. Many opinions, complaints, theories, tactics, and possible solutions can be discussed – but only ANet can decide what is best.

Teabaker.9524:

Meh, break another specc for thiefs >_>

As thief you can’t land CnD reliable without steal in teamfights. You are very squishy and standing in melee range to land CnD is deadly >_> I would like to see a burst reduction (Steal -> CnD not doable) and a rework on double dagger. Seriously, number 3 is completely useless to the playstyle of double dagger. I mean, yes, you can go a heavy condition based specc and spam 3 all day and kill stuff. But this is boring and could get removed from the game in my opinion.

So my idea is to nerf heartseeker strike (nerf the gap closer on it) and rework number 3 to a gapcloser + short root/stun with low damage. All skills on double dagger would work well together and create a fun and strong gameplay.

But if A-net nerfs this without compensation, what do we have left? Condition Pistol/Dagger, which is probably the strongest thief specc overall >->

They said in the Thief forum they were looking at nerfing the burst and compensating elsewhere. Nothing solid, of course, but I think they understand this and want to expand the number of viable thief builds.

Daays.4317:

So you mean someone is using game mechanics and terrain to their advantage? Shocking! How dare they! If only you could use it back…

Did you know you can’t steal up Z-Axis? You can’t steal through objects as well. You won’t be teleported to the target, but will still do damage is traited for mug. Which means that opening burst and gap closer failed and gives the other player an advantage.

You don’t see the 2x edge in putting all your eggs in one basket. If a backstab thief wants to kill someone in an opener, then they have to commit to it 100%. If they fail to land it, then they will lose. There are plenty of ways to counter it, from protection, to dodging, to terrain usage, to proper skill usage.

This entire post is about a bad player saying he can’t react in 1.5seconds, but claims he has quick reflexes. It’s a whine thread. And then other people agreeing and saying no one can react to that and need at least 2 seconds minimum.

Yet I can guarantee you not one of them knows how steal functions. How venoms function. How stealth functions.

Instead, they go against a glass cannon they know nothing about, die, and make a whine thread.

I personally play my thief with no stunbreaks. I rely on being able to dodge openers and incoming stuns. I win all of my 1v1’s against other thiefs. I win the majority of my 1v1’s against other thiefs when I play my ele, my warrior, my necro, and my guardian. I win because I know how the class works. The limitations. The damage & survivability potential of the class.

Should educate yourself on how classes work and find a way around it.

I can agree with you that there are ways to get away from it. That’s indisputable.

“If they fail to land it, then they will lose.”

This is not currently true. If this was true, it would still be a bad thing.

I want to see thieves in tPvP more often, and sPvP less often. Right now the thief profession is lacking for real competitive PvP, and is leaning on this crutch for sPvP.

I personally don’t like to play glass cannon builds, and I also mostly win in 1v1 with thieves. This thread isn’t about ME, and I will grant you that there are a LOT of people who whine instead of thinking and improving.

I don’t think the situation is a good one. In a 1v1, thieves have a massive advantage with the initial fatal burst followed by the best (debatable?) mobility and escape skills in the game. When this is scaled up to 2v2 or 5v5 or god forbid 8v8, thieves are gods among men. ESPECIALLY if you have 2 or 3 who mark a target, and then kill it, moving on to the next.

So, what is the downside? For one – conditions. These types of thieves aren’t very good with conditions. Secondly, they are fragile IF they get caught. But thieves who have this level of burst do not lack escape skills and control skills.

Offense – best burst in the game.
Defense – best mobility and escapes in the game.

Think about it like this, though.

Imagine every profession has a “budget” for which to design it’s capabilities within.
The current state of thief burst must eat a huge part of that budget, and thus it is unlikely they will get any adjustments in other areas until it is dealt with.

The current situation is not good for thieves, or PvP in general. This isn’t the only issue in PvP, but it certainly is an issue. This ability shouldn’t be removed (I even like C&D + Steal the way it works), but it should be toned down just a bit.

The kind of change I personally would like to see (and this is a half formed thought), would be to tone down the direct damage of backstab and give it some other additional effect, such as maybe a big stack of vulnerability or something.

Daays.4317:

Except you know it’s coming.

First off, you can’t steal + c&d + bs from stealth. It’s not possible.
Second, the thief will apply basilisk venom before going in. It has a 1 second cast time. He gets a venom buff. You know it’s coming.

If the thief buffs himself from stealth, waits out stealth, then goes in, then you should be counting. If he healed to get the stealth buff, then count to 3. If he SR, then count to 10.

You being completely oblivious to how other class mechanics work doesn’t help. You not having a game plan for when being engaged by a thief doesn’t help.

Should educate yourself on other class abilities. And if you can’t react in time, design a spec that has access to protection so you cannot get killed in the opener.

Every post you make has at least one insult included. Staying classy, I see. Any chance we can have a discussion without this childish and petty jabbing?

Your entire post is predicated on the assumption that you see the thief before they open on you. Theoretically, that should happen pretty often. Realistically, it doesn’t. There are a lot of reasons why… FoV, Camera Distance, Terrain, previous stealth (yes, I know all about the very slight cooldown between stealths), and any other number of issues.

“killed in the opener”

I think that is the problem, right there. I have no issues with big burst, or stealth, or Thieves being designed around being elusive, or the super high mobility. I like all of those things, and I like that thieves in general are exceptional 1v1 fighters.

Being killed in the OPENING 0.5 seconds of a fight, however, seems unnecessary. Do thieves NEED that to be competitive? If so, then they need buffs somewhere else and nerfs on this massive opening burst.

Let’s not make this about calling people bad, or noobs, or telling them to build their entire character around thieves or alternatively save all of their utilities for thieves. There is no other profession in the game that requires the same level of consideration when preparing a build. Surely you know that.

I LOVE stealth classes. I always have. I would hate seeing thieves turned into watered-down warriors. And yet, I still feel like this initial opening burst is not conducive to good PvP.

Archaon.6245:

0.5 sec is too short? Have you ever played an HA pd mez in gw1? A good pd mez can see a 0.5 sec cast skill, cast pd (That is istant)…and interrupt that skill…all before the 0.5 cast time passed

LOL QQ more noobs…so hilarious

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycat_colEgs

watch and l2p

In this video, the interrupter is standing and waiting for skills he knows will be cast. In fact, NOTHING is happening except a demonstration of interrupts. The skills are 0.5 seconds, and even though he is waiting for it he just barely makes it happen with an instant cast skill.

So, to relate that to this situation:

Instead of knowing this is about to happen and interrupting the skill within 5 seconds, we have to spontaneously react with a stunbreak AND a dodge or other invulnerability skill or something.

The result of the failure in your video example is that the skill gets cast.
The result of the failure in this situation is death of your character.

Seriously, you don’t see that as a problem? I’m not saying people can’t react quickly… I can hit the brakes in my car within that time frame without a problem. I’m also not saying that people should have 2 or more seconds to react to this, because that would effectively neuter thieves.

I think what we are saying is that this is an awfully short time frame to determine the life or death of a character, when the rest of the game is built around longer fights.

We aren’t talking about a single interrupt while you are COOPERATING with the spell-caster and WATCHING his health bar for a casting animation. Instead we are talking about something that happens from stealth, from distance, and is followed by more stealth and potentially more of the same burst – OR a complete and effective escape which nullifies any inherit risk.

Besides, ANet has said they are actively looking into this at the moment and plan to nerf the burst in favor for some other kind of buff. They can see the issue here, why can’t you?

And there is a problem with restricting boon/heal limits, too.

Boons and Heals are not targeted, and thus if you restrict them to 5 some of them become useless.

EDIT: Besides, that wouldn’t solve the problem of area spells like Feedback or Wall of Reflection or Sanctuary.

wacko.7543:

Until free server transfers is gone, we’ll never have a true WvW battle. BG was holding our own til those guilds left, and now you see what it’s down too. Numbers mean everything, skill means something and server hopping kills the game.

Well, they are on a 7 day cooldown now so I think the next few weeks will be VERY interesting.

The last few weeks have been great. It can only get better.

Hastur.6231:

Look:

- Clones do not spawn with the same amount of health
- Only spam the first attack
- Attack with a reduced rate of fire
- Do not display titles
- Do not display explorer star next to name
- Do not carry an off hand weapon
- Receive a lot more damage
- Are static if not out of range or Issued a shatter command
- Do not dodge
- Downed clones DO NOT HAVE A BIG RED TRIANGLE on their head

Also, they do not strafe or frequently change directions. They never switch targets. They don’t use but 1 or 2 abilities, and thus their casting animations are very limited. They also don’t fade to visible from stealth.

Daays.4317:

Sky.9347:

Daays.4317:

No.

I’m making an analogy to the reaction time needed to succeed. You say 1/2 a second is too short. It needs to be longer. You can’t react.

Scripted PvE events in another game require multiple people to react within half a second or your entire team fails.

If you think half a second is too short, then your reaction time is too slow. Improve upon it.

There is a major difference between scripted events, and PvP.

If you don’t understand that, then there is nothing anyone can say that will change your mind.

There’s nothing I can say to change yours. You failed to draw that same conclusion that Blizzard designed a PvE raid encounter around a 0.5sec interrupt rotation across multiple people. It was designed to be beaten. You could react fast enough.

Yet I’m being told half a second is too fast when the average human takes 0.215 seconds to react to something.

Not only is half a second too fast though, I was told that it should be increased to 2-3seconds.

Over 10x the reaction time of an average person.

So since it takes a couple of days to fully change someone’s mind, I’ll see you in 20. Maybe then you’ll see how ridiculous it is claiming you have fast reflexes and need at least 2 seconds to react.

Come on man… scripted events are SCRIPTED. You know when the ability is going to be used, and as a matter of fact there are addons that put a huge sound and headline across your screen that says MOVE MORON.

In PvP, especially with a highly mobile, stealthed enemy… you have no such warning.

I’m not on the hate thieves bandwagon or anything, but your argument that a player in a competitive PvP environment isn’t any stronger than a RAID BOSS in a PvE environment is disingenuous.

EDIT: I don’t think anyone needs 2-3 seconds either, which is an eternity in PvP.

I really love RoW. The cast time takes some getting used too, but the utility it offers is nothing short of amazing.

One of my favorite tactics is to knock someone into a wall, and then place RoW so that they are trapped between the wall and the outside of the ring. Even if they dodge through it, they are now IN it.

You can use it to protect allies, choke points, trap enemies, provide a few seconds of relief, to provide a nice long Light Field. It is a very powerful ability.

I like all Guardian weapons, except Scepter.

I think for Scepter, the #1 skill needs some kind of love. Other than that, everything is good. I used to hate Staff #2, but then I got higher level and it scales very well.

Sword #3 is one of my favorite skills. I don’t think of it as ranged, I think of it as a melee ability that is VERY difficult to get away from.

Daays.4317:

No.

I’m making an analogy to the reaction time needed to succeed. You say 1/2 a second is too short. It needs to be longer. You can’t react.

Scripted PvE events in another game require multiple people to react within half a second or your entire team fails.

If you think half a second is too short, then your reaction time is too slow. Improve upon it.

There is a major difference between scripted events, and PvP.

If you don’t understand that, then there is nothing anyone can say that will change your mind.

This game has the best “fantasy” based PvP of any game I have played.

I even prefer it to GW1 – granted it doesn’t have the same polish, but that will come with time.

Outside of this genre, though, I would have to say TF2 is my go-to game for FPS PvP.

Sifu.6527:

Turtling by itself isn’t game breaking. If a large group want to hold a position, let them. When you’re turtling, you are immobile and even with the 5 hit limit of aoe, you can still kill them with siege and assist.

However, when you combine this tactic with Mesmer portal, the seemingly immobile Zerg can move freely around faster than anyone while gaining benefits from culling issue.

In my opinion, they won’t do anything about Turtling but they may nerf portal. I’m assuming, since balance is cater around tpvp, they will limit it to 5 ppl per portal use.

I think nerfing portal would be a travesty.

Portal is quite possibly my favorite skill in the game – and I don’t even personally use it a lot. I really enjoy skills like Line of Warding and Portal, which have such limitless potential.

Restricting Portal to 5 people would suck.

So this whole Turtle thing. On one hand, I applaud the organizational skill and discipline it takes to pull this off. On the other hand, I think this very specific tactic is abusing a game mechanic and thus something needs to be done.

What’s the point of having the beautiful castles and landscapes to wage epic battles on, if everyone just stands on top of each other?

If this remains as effective as it is now, eventually all battles will become Turtle battles. I really think this would be bad for the game, in general.

With that being said – I absolutely think Turtling should have uses and should remain an effective option for specific situations.

So,TL;DR – Turtling is fine, Turtling being the #1 indisputable answer to all tactical (not strategic) decisions simply because it takes advantage of a game mechanic is not fine.

lagrangeify.5641:

Oh look, a guild drama spilling onto the forum. That’s novel.

What this boils down to is you thought he was being a jerk, so you acted like a jerk right back at him (no res for you!), he’s a jerk with the power of grayskull and he kicked you for being a jerk. Now you’re doing the only honourable thing, by airing your dirty laundry in public….

I’d say you all had a lucky escape.

^ +1

Just want to chime in here.

I guess I fall into the B group – I have no interest in chasing carrots.

As a matter of fact, when I hit level 80 I bought a full set of Rares (because it’s what I could afford), and I had no intention of working towards anything else.

Granted, I’ve picked up quite a few exotic pieces since then… but I can’t see me earning a Legendary anytime in the next 12-18 months.

Now, my opinion is if you add anything to the game system that prevents me from continuing to play this way (by restricting access, or presenting a very un-level playing field in WvW), I will just stop playing.

I’ve been playing MMOs since before they had graphics. Ultima Online is where I have the most fond memories. EQ, AC, WoW, AoC, Rift, DAoC, FFXI, and more.

I’ve had quite enough of games that start to feel like a second job. I want to play, and have a good time. I enjoy occasionally getting a new skin just to change things up.

I 100% don’t give a kitten what someone else spends their time chasing or attaining or whatever – AS LONG AS it doesn’t force me to do the same in order to be on equal footing.

So my opinion is now as it has been since before GW2 was released: Add as much grind as you want, as long as it does not provide more maximum potential than the current Legendary levels in PvE/WvW or Exotic levels in PvP.