Guild Wars 2

hharry.1967:

Sky.9347:

hharry.1967:

Theres no gear grind at all unless you want to look cool.

When talking about PvE (and by extension, WvW) you are wrong sir.

For the OP: I think you made some good points. I don’t think hotjoin should go away, but they do need to do something to create a transition from solo player to tournament team.

Really? You can get a whole exotic set in a few days. Do a few dungeons, get some gold buy jewelry, done!

That very well may be true, but Exotic gear is subpar now, and will only continue to become further subpar.

This isn’t a topic about that though. I assure you there is ample information available if you choose to avail yourself of it that will show you ANet’s plans for continuous vertical progression.

This topic is however about the last bastion of “a level playing field” and why it is not appealing to many people who would otherwise spend time and maybe even money on it.

The OP has some good points. There feels like there is no path forward. Either you know people, or you play solo. It is difficult to make the jump from one to the other.

That’s not even mentioning finding a good team.

Some of this could be solved by the playerbase, guilds that train members and develop teams internally and all… but that would require a far larger playerbase of dedicated sPvPers, which GW2 doesn’t really have right now.

hharry.1967:

Theres no gear grind at all unless you want to look cool.

When talking about PvE (and by extension, WvW) you are wrong sir.

For the OP: I think you made some good points. I don’t think hotjoin should go away, but they do need to do something to create a transition from solo player to tournament team.

For the record – any activity that offered COSMETIC ONLY rewards is 110% okay by me.

I have serious problems with + stats. Any activity that would just add more + stat bullkitten I do not support.

Although, ANet has proven they don’t give a rat’s kitten about what I think on the matter.

So, chances are… you’ll get raids with raid-specific stat improved gear. Probably the same update that adds mounts.

ATTHWSM.7840:

Sigh… this game. People that dont want endgame cry and scream about it, when it doesnt affect you in anyway. Guess what? Your bad at the game, you lack mechanical knowledge of what works where, or youd rather do other things inside this great game…. THEN DONT RAID. It doesnt affect you either way, so stop. I hardcore raided for 20 hours a week in EQ2, and guess what? There were TONS of people that never raided, didnt care, and it all worked out. This game can do the same thing. You wanna run dungeons? Cool go do that. You wanna craft? Go do it. You want a challenge with rewards that reflect that challenge? Go raid. Its that easy.

And if you want to stay on par with raiders, without raiding, TOO kittenING BAD, LOSER.

Right?

Wreckdum.8367:

Sky.9347:

maddoctor.2738:

Sky.9347:

Actually, he’s basing his argument on the current game.
You’re basing yours on the possible game tomorrow.

So if Anet has already identified the issue of having Ascended only in Fractals, and repeatedly said (and announced) that it will be fixed, not in the future, but tomorrow, yet we still get complains? How about just waiting for less than 24h (it’s not much) and then taking out the tomahawk of war.

The thing is, ANet destroyed most player’s trust through bad decisions followed by blatant mistakes.

I have absolutely zero faith that the patch tomorrow will correct much of this, or learn from past mistakes.

Sure, we can wait and see. Maybe they will prove me wrong. Chances are, based on their post-release history, that they will massively bumble it up.

How much of a grind will these new Ascended pieces be? Will the older pieces be spread out? Will grind be reduced? Will all avenues be equally rewarding?

We will find out soon. I’m going to be laughing so hard while browsing the forums from work tomorrow… it should be a blast seeing what kind of trouble these ‘wascilly wabbits’ get themselves into this time.

Speak for yourself. I understand you may be a melodrama major but relax. If they design something and put it in the game it isn’t a 1 week process for them to design a completely different system to appease all the doomcriers after the fact.

The game isn’t going to die because of ascended. You’re creating a problem out of nothing. It’s easily solved. They know it. We know it. They just have to write lines of code and put it in the game. Are you going to right the code? Then stop talking and let them do their job.

I would hate to be a developer of any product and have to listen to the most whiny ungrateful people on earth.

EDIT: TL;DR: FIRST WORLD PROBLEMS

Time will tell, champ. Be as dismissive as you want, but each mistake costs them months – possibly years – of goodwill.

Funny you use the word “ungrateful” though, as if I wasn’t a paying customer.

Vorch.2985:

SpyderArachnid.5619:

Bearhugger.4326:

morrolan.9608:

Whether its available just in fractals or not its still vertical progression and still against their original manifesto.

It’s not. Tomorrow they’re allowing people not running fractals to get ascended gear and then they’re going horizontal from there.

Colin said no power creeping in 2013 and I think 2014 is about right for an expansion, so it sounds like power is effectively plateau’ed and there’s no vertical progression.

I was also extremely suspicious when they announced the ascended tier, but it turns out that it is exactly what they said: a new tier of rarity to make the bridge between exotics and legendaries. Exotics are stupidly cheap to craft while legendaries cost 2,500 gold in the BLMK.

You can only get Ascended Rings and Amulets (sort of) from the new token system from daily/monthly achievements. Except these “Ascended” items don’t have any infusion slots. They are just stats. Meaning you still have to do Fractals to get Infusion Ascended items. And the Ascended back slots are still Fractals only. You can’t get those outside of Fractals.

And they said they will not add a new tier this year. They will continue to add the rest of the Ascended gear, but no new tier this year. And they also said they are going forward with Vertical Progression. So that means more tiers in the future. Meaning this isn’t the only tier and it will not plateau.

I’m ok with higher tiered infusions. I’m not ok with another stat increase. The only stat increase that I could deal with would be accompanied with the level increase that they already stated.

Higher tiered infusions will contain higher stats.
Why else would they be higher tiered?

Bearhugger.4326:

morrolan.9608:

Whether its available just in fractals or not its still vertical progression and still against their original manifesto.

It’s not. Tomorrow they’re allowing people not running fractals to get ascended gear and then they’re going horizontal from there.

Colin said no power creeping in 2013 and I think 2014 is about right for an expansion, so it sounds like power is effectively plateau’ed and there’s no vertical progression.

I was also extremely suspicious when they announced the ascended tier, but it turns out that it is exactly what they said: a new tier of rarity to make the bridge between exotics and legendaries. Exotics are stupidly cheap to craft while legendaries cost 2,500 gold in the BLMK.

The AMA said there would be increased tiers of Infusions and purposeful vertical progression (along a “shallow” power curve).

Have they changed that plan, again?

EDIT: I went and watched the 2013 preview video. There wasn’t a single word about power creep.

LinkR.6190:

Sky.9347:

It’s the Cash Shop and Vertical Progression literally draining the very life of Tyria.

Soon, it will seem as if you’re playing on the moon.

This would be funny, if it wasn’t so mean spirited.

Bah. I don’t think it was “mean spirited”. I’ve said some really nasty things about ANet lately, but this time I was just joking.

Some things are lost in text via the internet. Inflection, body language, tone, etc.

maddoctor.2738:

Sky.9347:

We will find out soon. I’m going to be laughing so hard while browsing the forums from work tomorrow… it should be a blast seeing what kind of trouble these ‘wascilly wabbits’ get themselves into this time.

Let’s see what happens tomorrow… it’s their big “earn back the trust of your playerbase day” or a “make even more players lose faith to you day”. We’ll see which of the two is really happens, as it stands they have a 50/50 chance on both :P

On this I completely agree.

They’ve already lost me 100% for PvE and WvW, but I am on the fence about sPvP.

Tomorrow is the do or die. Hopefully they know that.

A mistake tomorrow could spell the end of GW2. A success tomorrow might put them back on the radar for hundreds, thousands, or even hundreds OF thousands of players.

The anticipation is delicious.

maddoctor.2738:

Sky.9347:

Actually, he’s basing his argument on the current game.
You’re basing yours on the possible game tomorrow.

So if Anet has already identified the issue of having Ascended only in Fractals, and repeatedly said (and announced) that it will be fixed, not in the future, but tomorrow, yet we still get complains? How about just waiting for less than 24h (it’s not much) and then taking out the tomahawk of war.

The thing is, ANet destroyed most player’s trust through bad decisions followed by blatant mistakes.

I have absolutely zero faith that the patch tomorrow will correct much of this, or learn from past mistakes.

Sure, we can wait and see. Maybe they will prove me wrong. Chances are, based on their post-release history, that they will massively bumble it up.

How much of a grind will these new Ascended pieces be? Will the older pieces be spread out? Will grind be reduced? Will all avenues be equally rewarding?

We will find out soon. I’m going to be laughing so hard while browsing the forums from work tomorrow… it should be a blast seeing what kind of trouble these ‘wascilly wabbits’ get themselves into this time.

maddoctor.2738:

Tolmos.8395:

By cosmetic grind, I assume you mean grinding for gear that has the EXACT same stats as others but only looks different, since that is it’s definition.

Well, that’s exactly what we have in the game.

Since Rares < exotics < ascended gear, and Legendaries will later become BiS at all times, those don’t particularly fit in the category so, I am forced to ask…

What are you talking about? lol Is there some new cosmetic item line I missed the whine about attaining?

Talk about Ascended gear grind tomorrow and if you want it through WvW in February, until then just wait. As for the Legendaries part… it all depends how Ascended weapons will be acquired, if Rings/Amulets are any indication they will br acquired very very easily, so again you have nothing to base your arguments – yet.

Actually, he’s basing his argument on the current game.
You’re basing yours on the possible game tomorrow.

Vorch.2985:

Exotics are more than enough for all of PvE (except fractals). Dungeons can be beaten with all green gear…very easily.

ANet decided that they needed a tier between legendaries and exotics, so we got ascended. Some like it, others don’t, but what’s done is done. However, Legendary status will ALWAYS match the highest tier.

They have since stated that they were wrong to roll out ascended gear only attainable in fractals are are working to remedy that situation.

They have also stated that there will not be a new tier for the remainder of this year. Some have taken that quote to mean there will be a new tier later, but as there is no confirmation, it is a rumor and best and intentionally toxic at worst. This is coming from me, a player who will leave or play SUBSTANTIALLY less if another tier is added.

Yes, the game is primarily geared toward attaining the skins you like the most. They made a mistake with the time requirements between legendary weapons and exotics and are attempting to rectify that with ascended gear.

However, at it’s heart, it’s a skin hunting game. That is also why I am frustrated that we don’t have more armor skins added during the holidays, but they should be adding more skins as time goes on.

Actually…

They said Vertical Progression is here to stay.
They said they wouldn’t be adding a new tier every 6 months, and plan to use increasing tiers of Infusions for a while to come before adding a new tier of gear.

They are dressing it up and being very creative with terminology. You should read the old AMA very carefully.

Vertical Progression is “required” for the most “hardcore and dedicated players”.

I’m sure they will soon add some kind of cash shop item to help you cut that 20 year timeframe in HALF.

It’s the Cash Shop and Vertical Progression literally draining the very life of Tyria.

Soon, it will seem as if you’re playing on the moon.

SpyderArachnid.5619:

When you think about it, they have a point though.

What was GW2 advertised as? A cosmetic game. No need to chase gear treadmills and fight for that next highest stat point. Everything was cosmetic in GW2. It was advertised as no grind, having only cosmetic options so you didn’t feel left behind.

That is exactly the thing though. In other games, the grind is for the next highest stat. That is how those games work. They keep putting new tiers and higher levels for you to grind out the next point that will make you stronger.

GW2 isn’t like that though. It is a game based off of cosmetics only. So there is no farming for the next highest stat. You play to get cosmetics and to make yourself pretty. That is the point of this game. It is just like other games, but you work for cosmetics.

Now in a game that prided itself on no grind, there is a lot of grind in the main aspect of the game. A cosmetic grind, which is what GW2 is all about. Cosmetics. So when people say, “It’s only cosmetic, you don’t have to do it”, they forget that there is nothing else to do in this game if you are not grinding for cosmetics. Everything in GW2 is cosmetic. That is the main focus.

So naturally, people are going to complain about the main focus of the game being a grind, after it was advertised as no grind.

And also – Ascended Gear.

The whole “only cosmetic” argument just went out the window with the Lost Shores update.

critickitten.1498:

SpyderArachnid.5619:

Wait, did you just say that the developers, the people who made and designed this game, don’t know what they are talking about? And they don’t know how their own system, the one they designed and created, works?

Not at all, and I’ll thank you not to twist my words.

I’m saying that you’re misinterpreting what the devs meant, mainly because they did not accurately state how the game was going to work.

They did not create a game where the leveling curve “flattens out”. What they created is a game where everything provides the same percentage of XP across all levels of the game, creating the illusion that the leveling curve is “flattening out”.

Also, that data you’re shrugging off as “fake” is pulled directly from the game by players who actually wrote down the experience to level at all 80 levels of the game. It came directly from the game. I’m going to trust data that can be pulled directly from the game more than I trust the word of any person, and I would recommend you do the same.

There is a difference though between LVL vs XP required, and LVL vs TIME required.

I think that’s what they are trying to say.

showatt.9413:

Wait, are you guys saying there are other things Gw 2 needs beside a comprehensive ingame ladder????

mind = blown.

Honestly, without the ladder (or MMR or ELO or whatever) system, nothing else matters.

But, ranking alone can’t fix what’s broken.

Cappy.2786:

Speaking of entitlement,if you are not willing to do any sort of challenging activity you do not deserve the reward as someone who does.Do you complain to your boss thats its to hard for you to work and you want the full paycheck.No.

This is the type of mentality that is destroying this game, and what little is left of the community.

I don’t even want to try to explain it to you, suffice to say it is a segregation / elitist point of view that ANet claimed they didn’t want in GW2.

Now it’s here in spades, and it will only get worse as they drive off certain players in favor of other certain players.

daydream.2938:

Ok, those are some other ideas. Idk about voice system. alot of mmos dont have one.

However, what do people think of the live event? It would draw crowds at least, and assuming by the time they do it, spvp is a bit better, then maybe it would get people back into that scene.

Live event might be a useful tool to show off improvements.

Having that before making serious, meaningful improvements that are absolutely required for competitive PvP would be suicide.

Marxo.3829:

Sky.9347:

Marxo.3829:

critickitten.1498:

WvW utilizes a (broken) reward system with the Badges of Honor (better known as Badges of Jumping), a key component in legendary items and for buying any of the best gear. We were originally told that you could level from 1 to 80 and get all the gear you needed in WvW, yet to obtain this max exotic gear through WvW play alone requires 1889 Badges of Honor. That’s a minimum of almost 2k kills,though likely more if you’re unlucky like me (I have under 250 badges despite 1.1k kills to my name). Guess what that is? A grind.

Aaaand we have someone now complaining that exotic gear is too hard to get.

Exotic WvW gear is ridiculous. AND it’s second rate gear at that.

Have you purchased a WvW Exotic piece of gear?

I have issues when people use obtuse logic like utterly ignoring the fact that you also get karma and gold for WvWing which should net you whatever exotics you want. Easily too.

There is a valid argument that more stat combinations should be available with badges but that was not his argument.

Except WvW exotics.

Look, WvW exotics are skins. It is a cosmetic grind. It really doesn’t bother me for it to be just slightly out of reach without a bit of focused effort.

But his point does stand. Exotic WvW gear is FAR beyond what most other Exotic gear requires.

Kakeru.2873:

Spvp is terrible really, every friend who enjoys pvp i know has left this game due to how terrible it is and it put a bad taste in their mouths and mine. They would need a complete overhaul of SPvP to actually get people wanting to play this again.

And as this id now Casual Wars 2 i doubt that will ever happen

I actually purchased this game for the PvP.

Upon release, after a lot of PvP I found it lacking. I switched to WvW for some time, figuring they would fix stuff eventually. They had my loyalty from GW1 and some awesome promises made before release.

Then Ascended Gear. I quit. Haven’t come back yet.

I would consider returning (maybe) if sPvP gets fixed, but apparently it still isn’t. It may or may not be in the next couple months. I’m no longer willing to trust them. I want to verify before putting another minute into the game.

Eventually even the possibility of coming back for sPvP will fade.

I imagine I’m not the only one… judging by the comments of people I know, and some here on the forums.

Marxo.3829:

critickitten.1498:

WvW utilizes a (broken) reward system with the Badges of Honor (better known as Badges of Jumping), a key component in legendary items and for buying any of the best gear. We were originally told that you could level from 1 to 80 and get all the gear you needed in WvW, yet to obtain this max exotic gear through WvW play alone requires 1889 Badges of Honor. That’s a minimum of almost 2k kills,though likely more if you’re unlucky like me (I have under 250 badges despite 1.1k kills to my name). Guess what that is? A grind.

Aaaand we have someone now complaining that exotic gear is too hard to get.

Exotic WvW gear is ridiculous. AND it’s second rate gear at that.

Have you purchased a WvW Exotic piece of gear?

Qid.1937:

Farming is a choice.. because the option is there doesn’t make it necessary.

What is the other choice?

Real money -> gems → gold?
Find a new game?

Hellkaiser.6025:

UnderdogSMO.9428:

Sky.9347:

Before Ascended Gear, Legendaries were an optional cosmetic grind.

Since then, Legendaries are where the “max stats” will reside. It’s been said, it’s been proven (via accidental early update), and it is fact.

And yet still so many people are claiming that Legendaries are just optional cosmetic fluff. That used to be true, but it isn’t anymore.

yeah because acended wepons duh…..

ascended

Gear will increase with each expansion will it not? so they will always become more powerful and remain at top tier?

I believe this is the point they were making…

Yeah… either grind a LOT for Legendary stuff (including armor if they still release it) to stay at the top of the food chain…

or

Grind a little less each time a new tier (of infusions, and whatever comes after that) is released.

How can you say there is no grind?

Evo.9180:

Sky.9347:

There just aren’t enough players (right now) to spread around.

Having random vs. random as it’s own bracket would stress an already shrunken population.

I know some people don’t like it when other games are given as an example, but I think it’s fair to look at games which have found that a certain model works. If you are familiar with the process of LoL becoming popular the turning point was the implementation of solo queue and matchmaking. It was after the proper implementation of those things that LoL started to grow fast. Of course Riot invested a lot of money into the tournaments later on, but the initial surge of players came before that. Even today solo/duo queue is the most popular mode, despite there being several other modes, too. Everyone who is streaming LoL is streaming solo queue.

I actually think that solo queue is going to help this game a lot rather than making it worse. Players who only want to practice as teams will get some actual practice against other teams instead of just rolling pugs and barely learning anything from it then going to paids get rolled there and come back to beating pugs in frees. It’s a vicious cycle, which isn’t fun for anyone.

It’s extremely frustrating for pugs to be playing against a team that has voice communication and synchronized builds. It puts off a lot of people from ever trying out tournaments again. And they are left with the horrendous hotjoins which will eventually bore you to death and force you to stop playing altogether. People who wish to play solo or with a friend are the majority. There are people who just don’t want the hassle of being part of a team and organize to play together at certain times. People who just want to play without feeling committed to a team. The casuals must be taken care of or this game will keep going downhill.

I understand that separating pre mades and pugs will initially make the waiting time for team queues longer, but quite frankly it needs to be done in order to give this game a chance to grow. Otherwise people will keep leaving until free tournaments become as dead as paid.

These are very good points, and you very well might be correct.

I think it’s worth a healthy internal developer debate.

A little pain now for possibly huge gain later? Is that a risk worth taking?

I don’t have the answer. Thanks for the awesome counter-point though.

Dradiin.8935:

Sky.9347:

Awesome.6120:

The community barely tolerates your choice to play certain classes. Basing anything on that is ridiculous.

But it’s not ridiculous.

This is an MMO, which everyone likes to say when defending the “fact” that VP is necessary.

If you want to play with other people, you’re going to need to be competitive. When certain classes aren’t recognized by the community as valid or viable, they get adjusted by the developers. In fact, many developers use that as a primary metric when deciding which classes need adjustments.

If this was truly the case, can you please explain Engineers then ?

Can I? Nope.

I can’t explain a LOT of things ANet is doing lately.

But I can explain this: when the community thinks Engineers aren’t viable, and doesn’t want to take them to the competitive aspects of the game… people who mainly play Engineers will begin to leave the game.

Just look at the forums.

You can’t deny that community consensus is a huge part of the game balance.

Ignoring that consensus will isolate players. Most developers will measure “balance” by participation rates. They want all classes (and maybe all specs?) to have roughly equal participation. When that doesn’t happen, they buff or nerf stuff to bring things in line.

If the community decides it won’t bring non-max stat players to new content (especially if they feel competitive pressure), then players will either be forced to attain that gear OR not participate.

I’m frankly surprised this has to be explained. Hell, go look at some of ANets very own writing from before release and they explain this stuff.

Paid tournaments could have a place in a PvP game with a very healthy and popular fanbase, a lot of eSport appeal, and continuous games so readily available that the best of the best need a place to go for real competition.

GW2 doesn’t have any of that right now.

Where I come from, we call this “putting the cart before the horse”.

pricer.5091:

Sky.9347:

Before Ascended Gear, Legendaries were an optional cosmetic grind.

Since then, Legendaries are where the “max stats” will reside. It’s been said, it’s been proven (via accidental early update), and it is fact.

And yet still so many people are claiming that Legendaries are just optional cosmetic fluff. That used to be true, but it isn’t anymore.

Actually it still will be true, as the developers have already said that Legendaries will always be top tier. Therefore, if they introduce ascended quality weapons as you seem to be implying (and I think they will too)…then Legendaries will simply be upgraded to match the stats of the ascended weapons.

So what is now simply Exotic stats in a fancy skin will just be Ascended stats in a fancy skin.

And in fact theres a high chance that if the (future) ascended level weapons are obtained through the same mechanism as ascended backpacks and rings (ie. grinding) then a lot of people will cry foulplay if people who have legendaries get them upgraded without having to obtain the ascended item.

C’est la vie.

Personally I don’t care because with the exception of maybe Incinerator and the greatswords I think they all suck looks-wise anyway.

Yes, it’s possible that Ascended weapons will just be a smaller-grind version of Legendaries.

Until the next tier of Infusion, at least.

But if adding grind wasn’t the goal, why add Ascended gear at all? Their stated purpose was to give people something to force them to continue playing.

If you remove the grind, they cease to fulfill that purpose.

Awesome.6120:

The community barely tolerates your choice to play certain classes. Basing anything on that is ridiculous.

But it’s not ridiculous.

This is an MMO, which everyone likes to say when defending the “fact” that VP is necessary.

If you want to play with other people, you’re going to need to be competitive. When certain classes aren’t recognized by the community as valid or viable, they get adjusted by the developers. In fact, many developers use that as a primary metric when deciding which classes need adjustments.

Awesome.6120:

That is a slippery slope argument. The fact is right now you don’t need that +1. Will you need a +10 in five years to do a newly updated AC? We have no idea but saying that is definitely what will happen is disingenuous.

No it’s not. They’ve said vertical progression is here to stay.

Content WILL become obsolete. Gear WILL become more powerful.

Even if it is theoretically possible to struggle through content with Exotic gear for years to come… that doesn’t mean the community will tolerate your choice to ignore the treadmill.

Hellkaiser.6025:

Excuse me for just assuming that this translates into another
“X game made X years ago was grindier than this, and thus this isn’t a grinder” thread
Which in itself is insanely flawed logic.

Developmental evolution doesn’t exist apparently…

200 years ago doctors used leeches to “clean the blood”

therefore

anybody who gets HIV from a tainted blood infusion should just be happy they even GOT a blood infusion

Celtic Lady.3729:

The term grind has both a dictionary definition and a subjective player definition. People that say there is no grind in a given MMO they play are really saying that nothing they’ve done on the game to date feels like a grind. Some people could kill 5 million risen in a single stretch and think it fun while other players would feel like tearing their eyes out after the 500th one.

It doesn’t mean that the “no grind” player’s opinion is more valid than one who has, in fact, encountered grind in a given game. It also doesn’t mean that said player will never at some point in the future experience grind. They might not, but then they might. At the end of the day, “grind” as its used by most players in most forums is purely a matter of opinion and individual experience since what feels like fun to one player might feel like a grind to another and both points of view are valid.

Well said.

Perhaps we should be focusing on these, instead:

Does GW2 use the mechanic of grind to artificially increase play time? (ie, vertical progression)
Would it be possible to use some other mechanic to do that instead? (ie, cosmetic options / horizontal progression in the form of sidegrades and/or rare skills?)
Does play time directly correlate to money spent? (ie, do those who play the most hours spend the most money?)

Chi Malady.2015:

Solo queue
Voice chat
Ladder
Spectator mode

The population would explode with these additions.

I disagree with the solo queue part, but I have conflicted thoughts on that.

Ladder is critical. Imperative.
Observer mode is very important for both entertainment value, tournament (esport) value, and most importantly – for players to learn and improve!

Finally… and I saved this for last because I think it’s most important.

Without a built in voice system, the conversion rate from solo→ free team → paid team will forever be slow and unfriendly.

If you really want people to progress from hot join games all the way up to paid tournaments, you’ve got to supply the stepping stone of in-game voice coms. It doesn’t need to be in depth, hell you could even offer a “Deluxe” version for gems; but without this, a player never gets a chance to really begin to learn and enjoy the difference between random solo PvP and organized team PvP.

Good post.

Raf.1078:

If you are having fun, its not a grind. If, however, you turn it into a job…then its a grind.

Its a mindset. And its your responsibility to to recognize how its affecting you and adjust your gameplay or attitude. Or not.

All any game can do is provide a framework for enjoyment. Its not Anet’s faut that you play the way you do.

Until Lost Shores, they held true to their pre-release promise that I could play GW2 the way I wanted to, now I have to play it they say I should.

You see, grind in most people’s minds (like you mentioned up there) is doing stuff they don’t want to do, in order to do the stuff they do.

“preparing to have fun, rather than having fun”

maddoctor.2738:

Sky.9347:

Doing a bunch of endless dungeons for +1 stat gear is a massive, dull grind.

I can’t get this… the rings (and new amulets) will be available with Laurels outside of Fractals. The Laurel’s are rewarded from Daily/Monthly achievements, which basically “require” the player to just play the game. I can’t see how a daily can be grindy, for one it doesn’t even take enough time to be considered grindy, so the best gear in the game will be available without any grinding for everyone.

All while, those who are playign the dungeon will also get their gear without grinding, unless they just farm a certain level of fractals instead of moving forward. I just can’t see the grind for that +1 you mention.

Well, if you’re saying a future update will remove the grind for Ascended… my response would be – okay, we’ll just have to wait and see.

But to the second post… that’s my point. I don’t do dungeons. I don’t WANT to do dungeons. Forcing me to do them in order to stay on par with others is a grind.

Evo.9180:

It should definitely be discussed how important the implementation of a proper solo queue is.

In the first episode of State of the game, Jonathan Sharp said that their matchmaking system will still match pre mades with pugs. The reasoning behind this decision is that in GW1 sometimes teams in Random Arena were composed of better players than those in Team Arena. However he forgets to mention how in GW1 an RA team would be matched against a TA team after 10 consecutive wins. And how do you think that usually went? The RA team would get beaten by the more organized TA team most of the time.

Imagine how unfair it would feel to play against players of similar skill level but lose because of their superior communication and synchronized builds advantage due to them being a pre made team. A well organized pre made team will always have an unfair advantage against a group of very good individual players. No matter how extraordinary their matchmaking system is, it will never be fair to match pugs with pre mades.

If this thing goes through it will make solo queue feel extremely unfair and frustrating, even more so than it is now.

I think the problem here is…

There just aren’t enough players (right now) to spread around.

Having random vs. random as it’s own bracket would stress an already shrunken population.

EDIT: Although I agree that random vs. random would be ideal, I just don’t think it’s practical right now. It’s a question they probably don’t want to answer because the answer is not flattering.

maddoctor.2738:

Sky.9347:

Oh, were there changes to Ascended Gear?
Did Legendary Weapons go back to being equivalent to Exotic? (For the Future, as is currently planned)
I’ve not paid much attention for a while so it is entirely possible I missed some major change.

Not that I know off, Ascended Rings are as easy as always, same for infusing them, no grind required for those. Ascended backpieces are also available through Fractals for a low price, if you are ever planning on going high in Fractals you will get both rings and a backpiece while “leveling”, that’s not grinding.

Also, the laurels will be used to get Ascended Gear, now if that is going to be grindy depends on how many will be needed for a piece. Amulets will also become available tomorrow.

You still need 300 Ectoplasms and 250 of a particular tier 6 mat for the Ascended (Infused) Backpieces but those are only for the graphics/skin so they enter the category of “cosmetics”, you can get Ascended Backpiece from Fractals just by doing Fractals and getting to higher levels.

You probably missed how it works, not the change.

No, I know how it works.

I just hate dungeons. I’m not making a judgement of dungeons or people who like them, but I do not.

So here we will delve into the subjective nature of the definition of “grind”, but I am basing it on the things ANet said to me before I purchased this game.

Doing a bunch of endless dungeons for +1 stat gear is a massive, dull grind.

The thing is, in my opinion, ANet could have added thousands of cosmetic skins with hundreds of hours of grind needed for each one. Hell, they could have had skin sets that transform your character into a lich or something (sort of like Trang’Ouls set in Diablo 2). Through all of that I would have been the first person to stand up and say “this is NOT a grind, because it is ENTIRELY optional”.

The moment they stuck +1 stat behind X hours & RNG, GW2 became a grinder.

They even admitted it! They said (in so many words) that they needed something to keep people logging in everyday.

Their solution was a grind that is required. Again, I use required because I believe ANY + to stats is required, not optional.

“You can still play in Exotics” – Yes, for now you can. No, that doesn’t matter. Many posts and youtube videos explain that better than I ever could.

Before Ascended Gear, Legendaries were an optional cosmetic grind.

Since then, Legendaries are where the “max stats” will reside. It’s been said, it’s been proven (via accidental early update), and it is fact.

And yet still so many people are claiming that Legendaries are just optional cosmetic fluff. That used to be true, but it isn’t anymore.

MaXi.3642:

Sky.9347:

Geewoody.2017:

If a ladder is the deciding factor of whether or not you’ll be playing sPvP, you are wasting your time.

It’s not the deciding factor, but why do you say that?

because ladder isnt in? maybe?

you need to wait for upcomming patches, but not Jan one, maybe in Feb

Yeah I think I’ll do that.

Thanks for the responses.

maddoctor.2738:

Sky.9347:

You are all still operating under the false premise that +1 stat is optional.

It is not. If you don’t understand why, then we can’t truly discuss the grind in GW2.

You can get the max stats without grinding. Tell me which +1 in a stat requires a grind?

Oh, were there changes to Ascended Gear?
Did Legendary Weapons go back to being equivalent to Exotic? (For the Future, as is currently planned)

I’ve not paid much attention for a while so it is entirely possible I missed some major change.

You are all still operating under the false premise that +1 stat is optional.

It is not. If you don’t understand why, then we can’t truly discuss the grind in GW2.

Geewoody.2017:

If a ladder is the deciding factor of whether or not you’ll be playing sPvP, you are wasting your time.

It’s not the deciding factor, but why do you say that?

Celtic Lady.3729:

emikochan.8504:

I’m still not seeing any grind, I have everything I want from just playing normally and having fun.

Maybe the complainers are just impatient.

It’s a simple concept, really. I’m a different person than you. With me so far? Therefore, my experiences are likely to be different from yours. And other players’ experiences are different from mine. Therefore, while you may not be experiencing grind in your play, others like me are. We’re not impatient. It’s a matter that some of what we enjoy in the game requires farming and/or grind at times.

Again, your experiences are not the entire sum of the whole world. It is therefore illogical to assume that since one person (you) are not experiencing grind, all the rest of the thousands of players are also not.

I love this response. Well said.

In my experience, GW2 has some of the worst grind of any modern western MMO. (Post-Ascended)

condiments.8043:

Sky.9347:

I would like to know if there is ANY possibility for vertical progression to be added to sPvP in the future.

If they still hold to their e-sport aspirations any vertical progression will not be part of their plans.

They fooled me once.

I would just like to hear them answer the question, you know?

Karizee.8076:

There is a grind …..for legendary weapons. It’s intended.
People take what Mike O’Brien said out of context.

“Here’s what we believe: If someone wants to play for a thousand hours to get an item that is so rare that other players can’t realistically acquire it, that rare item should be differentiated by its visual appearance and rarity alone, not by being more powerful than everything else in the game. Otherwise, your MMO becomes all about grinding to get the best gear. We don’t make grindy games — we leave the grind to other MMOs.”

All other gear comes very easily in GW2 and you can play all content in blues and greens if you want.

Your argument falls apart with the bolded statement. Tell me how I’ve misinterpreted that.

I would like to know if there is ANY possibility for vertical progression to be added to sPvP in the future.

And just so I can feel like I contributed…

The answer to the OP’s question is: $.

If the moderation was more sane, I wouldn’t be so rude.

The fact is… I will get infracted and suspended no matter what I say (unless it is overwhelmingly positive), so why not just express my extreme discontent in a way that is both entertaining to me and infuriating to others?

Dradiin.8935:

Sky.9347; You want to make this thread about how you view someone’s physical appearance or about me defending them, go right ahead.

I didn’t say anything about you “defending” her.

Dradiin.8935:

Oh and forgive me for wanting a direct bit of proof this person has actually done what is being claimed.

If you’re unwilling to look for it yourself, then why should I help you? The information is easily found. I don’t care to establish consensus with you; it won’t change a thing.

Dradiin.8935:

Sky.9347:

Wow, she’s as ugly on the outside as she is on the inside.

That’s just mean and out and out rude.

If she has done something detrimental to the development of the game i love, then i would like to see exactly what it was she did with some sort of link or proof other than conjecture and inappropriate comments about someones physical appearance.

Yes, it is rude. It will likely get me yet another temporary suspension from the forums too, so you should feel good about that.

You go find your own source. It’s all over the place. This “woman” destroyed a beautiful game, and I frankly hope she feels awful. I’ve never seen her until this thread and that was my honest opinion.

She’s responsible for the cash shop for GW2, and she is the primary reason GW2 is using tried and true Asian game philosophies – massive grinds and oppressive cash shops.