1) Anet should remove one of these perks from being stealthed
a) Condi removal for every three seconds while stealth (combined
with heals it competes with ele’s condi removal)
b) Regen while stealthed… yeah w/o healing power it isn’t all that great…
But it is still one of the little things that is causing big problems
c) 50% faster while stealthed… Seriously aside from stealth bombers when was the
last time sneaky=fast? How many sneaky fast navy seals are there? I know its
a game and all but seriously this is just a ridiculous trait that costs too little
d) stealth SHOULD break on a block… Invuln/evades yeah i’ll give that to you
but you are still hitting something when its blocked whether it be that shield/
off hand sword its basically guaranteeing a free HUGE hit to thieves when they
stay stealthed and their first attack was blocked… Not really fair to someone
that was not being a baddie/noob and could predict the attack change.
If someone blocks my shatters on my Mesmer I don’t get an immediate free
redo on the burst and no other class does when their attacks are blocked
except thieves
e) finally Caltrops and choking gas should break stealth… I don’t care how you want
to justify it, these skills do damage and therefore should suffer the revealed debuff…
If a Mesmer pops a shatter from stealth they get revealed… Why? The clones blew up
not the Mesmer they shouldn’t be revealed! But they are, same concept applies to
thieves. This would also make thieves consider things like taking the trait that drops
caltrops on a dodge… It would make them choose something either/stealth heavy or
mobility…
My 2 cents… on things that would help with thieves (erm,,, stealth) in WvW. Any one of these minor changes would prolly make a lot more people happy and the only thieves that would be ticked would be the ones that can’t adapt… Every class has had to adapt to nerfs to some of their core mechanics (generalization I know of a few specific ones.) These changes would not break the thief class in any way
D and e fine.
A, b and c are traits. You can’t take them all regen is a 30 pt trait. This isn’t free stealth goodies, the condi removal possibly could take an internal cd though.
I’m not sure I would be on board with an internal cd on condition removal. One of the benefits to conditions, and their major strengths is that you can reapply them without any penalty.
Keep in mind that even with the internal c/d on that you would still have pretty good condi removal compared to say mesmers (who get none unless they trait or use utilities on obscenely long cds) but as I said any one or combo of those should be reasonable.
Mesmers have work around. Food that clears con 100% on 15sec reflect heal. Generosity on GS and newly buffed x/Torch traited for CD reduction and con removal. Together with just… being a Mesmer… I hardly notice conditions.
Okay well I am guessing you play thief… Please as a reasonable thief player (if my assumptions are correct). Tell me which of the proposed changes you would be okay with some of them I feel should be changed no matter what are the blocking breaking stealth and the caltrops/choking gas… Other than that I am pretty amicable… If you have other ideas field them… I am not one to dismiss everything and I hope these suggestions wouldn’t be looked at and dismissed because I am a “baddy” according to some of the more ego friendly people here.
I’d be fine with those changes as well. Any block or immunity that you whiff on should break stealth. Now there is no punishment unless you have a poison or auto crit buff. It would only add to the skillcap of thieves.
Poison and utility trops breaking stealth on first dmg I’m fine with too. Those are all reasonable changes.
If a thief is stealthing a lot, not just P/D, they will almost always have 30 in Shadow Arts and trait for Remove Condition every 3s and Heal in Stealth. They also will most likely have Hide In Shadows (if they don’t, then great!), Blinding Powder, and SR or SS.
Step 1: Thief runs at you. Dodge.
Step 2: Crowd Control – knockdowns/immobilize/chill/cripple. Thief stealths, removes condition, heals a little. Dodge.
Step 3: Stack on the AoE. Thief stealths more, removes condition, heals. Run around.
Step 4: Dodge/Block/Drop more AoE/Kite
Step 5: Repeat Step 2 until thief is no longer around or on the ground and dying.
The thief will eventually burn through all of his utility stealths and will be forced to use CnD, which doesn’t really do a lot of damage anyways (and if he’s hitting you, then he’s in range of anything you’ve got).
This is pretty much how you fight any thief, no matter the build (heck, this is how I fight D/D Eles). P/D thieves that CnD and then 1 are giving themselves the revealed debuff each time, so they are just as targettable even if they haven’t rendered. BS thieves need to land that first blow. Otherwise, they’ll run. And DD / SB or DD/PP condition thieves like me, well, you’re not going to have an easy time with me due to Death Blossom’s evade giving me an extra 2-3 dodges, but time your skills right and you’ll take me down just the same or I’ll run away.
Heals a little?
I’m over 600 HP/S while stealthed… If you run no healing power it’s Heals a Little.. if you run Healing Power though…
To get that, you’re sacrificing Pwr, Vit, Toughness, or Precision. You can only stay stealthed for so long, even at 3s, you’re getting 1500 HP. If you have no Vit or Toughness, straight DPS is all that’s needed with Conditions limiting your ability to heal (such as Poisons and Bleeds), and if you have no Pwr or Precision, all I’d have to do is kite. And since I main as Thief, it’s made even easier for me.
You have to Sacrifice something, In this case Power/precision/toughness (i could get toughness, and I will eventually, but Its not as good as Vit on a thief because we lack Protection)
you can see my HP in the videos, I’m not lacking on HP.
And since most of my damage is from conditions it’s not a huge deal to sacrifice power/precision
When you were playing your thief, did you contribute with something else other than zerg kills?
He’s 1 person, fighting 10-30 people. Imagine if there were five of him, or hell, ten of him.
When I run a five man Thief team, the stuff we pull of is absolutely insane, and now that crossed swords won’t show up for five people, holy mother did they just hand us our cake, and allowed us to eat it as well.
An ele can fight 10-30 people, and run away too. btdubs. I don’t see anyone starting a 12 page thread on it though. And kudos for rolling thieves harassing wvw. Seriously though, how does this affect the game of WvW? It just hurts roamers who aren’t ready for war obviously. If you have a 5 main thief team, KILL a 30 people zerg. I will /sign this nerf thread.
I can kill any elementalist solo, on my Ranger. I absolutely dominate them on my Thief, and Mesmer, though could fight them for ever on my Guardian, and no one dies.
There is no way in hell a Elementalist could fight more than two people, if I was there. You’re either lying, or you really do suck at playing the Thief.
You honestly can’t see the benefit of my five man Thief team killing a Zerg, who tries for a camp, and fails because of us? You really can not see the benefit of this? Holy mother of God, take of the blinders, and see the world around you.
A five man group of Thieves can starve an entire map of its most precious resources, and take towers to boot, or even open the wall of a keep for their Zerg to come hit at their leisure. If you think that doesn’t contribute to WvW, I don’t know what to say.
5 Thieves is cool and all but it’s not needed and less powerful than many many other mixes. Having a couple thieves in a 5 man is great for refuge and zerg juking. I have two other thieves and I ran my thief with for a long time. We recently did 2 thieves 1 Mesmer which outperforms 3 thieves. As long as you are organised having more profs is better but yes, you still need a couple thieves for burst and/or zerg juking.
If a thief is stealthing a lot, not just P/D, they will almost always have 30 in Shadow Arts and trait for Remove Condition every 3s and Heal in Stealth. They also will most likely have Hide In Shadows (if they don’t, then great!), Blinding Powder, and SR or SS.
Step 1: Thief runs at you. Dodge.
Step 2: Crowd Control – knockdowns/immobilize/chill/cripple. Thief stealths, removes condition, heals a little. Dodge.
Step 3: Stack on the AoE. Thief stealths more, removes condition, heals. Run around.
Step 4: Dodge/Block/Drop more AoE/Kite
Step 5: Repeat Step 2 until thief is no longer around or on the ground and dying.
The thief will eventually burn through all of his utility stealths and will be forced to use CnD, which doesn’t really do a lot of damage anyways (and if he’s hitting you, then he’s in range of anything you’ve got).
This is pretty much how you fight any thief, no matter the build (heck, this is how I fight D/D Eles). P/D thieves that CnD and then 1 are giving themselves the revealed debuff each time, so they are just as targettable even if they haven’t rendered. BS thieves need to land that first blow. Otherwise, they’ll run. And DD / SB or DD/PP condition thieves like me, well, you’re not going to have an easy time with me due to Death Blossom’s evade giving me an extra 2-3 dodges, but time your skills right and you’ll take me down just the same or I’ll run away.
Heals a little?
I’m over 600 HP/S while stealthed… If you run no healing power it’s Heals a Little.. if you run Healing Power though…
To get that, you’re sacrificing Pwr, Vit, Toughness, or Precision. You can only stay stealthed for so long, even at 3s, you’re getting 1500 HP. If you have no Vit or Toughness, straight DPS is all that’s needed with Conditions limiting your ability to heal (such as Poisons and Bleeds), and if you have no Pwr or Precision, all I’d have to do is kite. And since I main as Thief, it’s made even easier for me.
You have to Sacrifice something, In this case Power/precision/toughness (i could get toughness, and I will eventually, but Its not as good as Vit on a thief because we lack Protection)
you can see my HP in the videos, I’m not lacking on HP.
And since most of my damage is from conditions it’s not a huge deal to sacrifice power/precision
When you were playing your thief, did you contribute with something else other than zerg kills?
He’s 1 person, fighting 10-30 people. Imagine if there were five of him, or hell, ten of him.
When I run a five man Thief team, the stuff we pull of is absolutely insane, and now that crossed swords won’t show up for five people, holy mother did they just hand us our cake, and allowed us to eat it as well.
I know you think you are bad kitten right now, but I’m talking in the context of the OP’s play-style which is C&D on noobs and spam PA/Trops. Or are you taking what I’m saying out of context like every other e kitten on these boards? Wait… I guess I’m not surprised.
If a thief is stealthing a lot, not just P/D, they will almost always have 30 in Shadow Arts and trait for Remove Condition every 3s and Heal in Stealth. They also will most likely have Hide In Shadows (if they don’t, then great!), Blinding Powder, and SR or SS.
Step 1: Thief runs at you. Dodge.
Step 2: Crowd Control – knockdowns/immobilize/chill/cripple. Thief stealths, removes condition, heals a little. Dodge.
Step 3: Stack on the AoE. Thief stealths more, removes condition, heals. Run around.
Step 4: Dodge/Block/Drop more AoE/Kite
Step 5: Repeat Step 2 until thief is no longer around or on the ground and dying.
The thief will eventually burn through all of his utility stealths and will be forced to use CnD, which doesn’t really do a lot of damage anyways (and if he’s hitting you, then he’s in range of anything you’ve got).
This is pretty much how you fight any thief, no matter the build (heck, this is how I fight D/D Eles). P/D thieves that CnD and then 1 are giving themselves the revealed debuff each time, so they are just as targettable even if they haven’t rendered. BS thieves need to land that first blow. Otherwise, they’ll run. And DD / SB or DD/PP condition thieves like me, well, you’re not going to have an easy time with me due to Death Blossom’s evade giving me an extra 2-3 dodges, but time your skills right and you’ll take me down just the same or I’ll run away.
Heals a little?
I’m over 600 HP/S while stealthed… If you run no healing power it’s Heals a Little.. if you run Healing Power though…
To get that, you’re sacrificing Pwr, Vit, Toughness, or Precision. You can only stay stealthed for so long, even at 3s, you’re getting 1500 HP. If you have no Vit or Toughness, straight DPS is all that’s needed with Conditions limiting your ability to heal (such as Poisons and Bleeds), and if you have no Pwr or Precision, all I’d have to do is kite. And since I main as Thief, it’s made even easier for me.
You have to Sacrifice something, In this case Power/precision/toughness (i could get toughness, and I will eventually, but Its not as good as Vit on a thief because we lack Protection)
you can see my HP in the videos, I’m not lacking on HP.
And since most of my damage is from conditions it’s not a huge deal to sacrifice power/precision
When you were playing your thief, did you contribute with something else other than zerg kills?
He’s 1 person, fighting 10-30 people. Imagine if there were five of him, or hell, ten of him.
When I run a five man Thief team, the stuff we pull of is absolutely insane, and now that crossed swords won’t show up for five people, holy mother did they just hand us our cake, and allowed us to eat it as well.
Oh yea.. imagine 5 poison arrows.. dat one stack deeps…. oh no….. one condition clear…
You asked what I would do if a group showed up, and i told you, move towards mobs..Now you’re saying “Well just leave him alone” defeating the purpose of your original question.
As for what you’d do on your Mesmer vs a thief, that’s great..Maybe you’re an amazing Mesmer player and pwn every thief you run across….I’ve personally not died to a Mesmer yet (almost did early though hehe, But that was my own fault, I still won the fight)
I actually fought a Guardian yesterday who I eventually killed, but he was annoying to kill I won’t lie and he probably could of ran to the keep we were next to at any point and lived.
But then he would of lost, cause running away is losing wink
The chasing a P/D to mobs was more a 1 on 1 thing. A group probably may still chase or ignore and move on.. who knows.. Either way, you are at least admitting that there can be people that force you to stop your shenanigans and retreat to whatever you need to. It doesn’t matter if you get out of combat and WP back or run to mobs or a supply camp or go inside a keep. Yes that’s a loss of that round/battle whatever you want to call it. I guess that is a genius part of Anet’s design. They have made a game where a fight can happen and both sides can feel like they win.
Kudos to that Guard for sticking around. It’s more fun to see a fight through anyway. As you play P/D more you will run into singles of every prof that will put up a fight and maybe, who knows.. one day you will die in a 1 on 1.
I see that you main’d a ranger for a long time. P/D has always been a hard counter to ranger due to them not being able to put their pet away. I wonder if that’s what the draw was? You haven’t thought of ways for your ranger to beat yourself in a 1 on 1 yet?
The only change that is actually needed is a 1 point DD added to Poison Arrow and maybe Trops utility (fix culling too but that’s just a noob crutch excuse, it won’t matter much). A thief should not be able to initiate damage and remain stealthed. Even if the people who die to this are god awful. Trops are so easy to avoid though it’s hard to justify, even PvE players should know to stay out of red circles…
Other than that, showing videos of a thief trolling bads in WvW proves nothing but how terrible a large portion of the WvW player-base is. You can troll a zerg all day but then you run into 2-5 guided decent PvPers and treat them like the masses and they will roll you hard. I wonder if that’s happened to you yet on your Thief OP?
rofl, the population is just bad, so nerf to stealth needed grin
And no it’s not happened yet… know why?
Because if i get trouble I can teleport away..
Eles are faster than you. Refuge is counter-able to almost every profession. You got one 1200 step and then either Heartseeker spam or shortbow to run which is slower than both Eles and wars not to mention other thieves.
How can you not have run into any good players?
A. Ele’s are welcome to chase…..They won’t catch me though..Cause I just have to reach a mob (to which there is plenty) to get away consistently in PvP…and no group is going to chase a solo Thief around for 20 minutes hoping to catch him.
B. I don’t use Refuge, you can see that in the video.
C. I’ve been chased multiple times, It’s extremely easy to get away…Maybe you get caught cause you’re bad at the thief..I don’t though..So don’t know what to tell ya.
Haha too bad they don’t have public stat tracking so you can back up your claims of never dying. I simply don’t believe you. If it were true, I’d say you need to take more chances.
Anyway if you have to run you have already lost the fight. If you don’t feel like you lost then it’s just your own perception. Your enemy probably does. A Thief getting away is part of it’s core design.
If I have to run i’ve already lost the fight? Well seeing as you’re talking about a 5vs1 against the greatest players ever..Yes I should lose the fight…so ya…Only difference is if I was on any other class, I’d actually LOSE the fight as in dying…
I die every now and again, It’s rare though…in the past 2 month’s i’ve maybe died 8 or 9 times in PvP on my thief.
I actually died more when I relied on Shadows Refuge.
You actually require being outnumbered by bads or being around mobs to preform well. I’ve already told you how my mesmer can destroy a P/D 1 on 1. Other classes can preform fine against them as well such as condition swap necro and d/d ele. Ele is a stalemate at best vs a p/d even warriors/guards who know how to block/evade C&D. It’s pretty easy to not fight around mobs as well. If a P/D drags you over to mobs, you just ignore them. It’s no different than someone dragging you to guards or being a mesmer near a cliff… where they have a environmental advantage.
The only change that is actually needed is a 1 point DD added to Poison Arrow and maybe Trops utility (fix culling too but that’s just a noob crutch excuse, it won’t matter much). A thief should not be able to initiate damage and remain stealthed. Even if the people who die to this are god awful. Trops are so easy to avoid though it’s hard to justify, even PvE players should know to stay out of red circles…
Other than that, showing videos of a thief trolling bads in WvW proves nothing but how terrible a large portion of the WvW player-base is. You can troll a zerg all day but then you run into 2-5 guided decent PvPers and treat them like the masses and they will roll you hard. I wonder if that’s happened to you yet on your Thief OP?
rofl, the population is just bad, so nerf to stealth needed grin
And no it’s not happened yet… know why?
Because if i get trouble I can teleport away..
Eles are faster than you. Refuge is counter-able to almost every profession. You got one 1200 step and then either Heartseeker spam or shortbow to run which is slower than both Eles and wars not to mention other thieves.
How can you not have run into any good players?
A. Ele’s are welcome to chase…..They won’t catch me though..Cause I just have to reach a mob (to which there is plenty) to get away consistently in PvP…and no group is going to chase a solo Thief around for 20 minutes hoping to catch him.
B. I don’t use Refuge, you can see that in the video.
C. I’ve been chased multiple times, It’s extremely easy to get away…Maybe you get caught cause you’re bad at the thief..I don’t though..So don’t know what to tell ya.
Haha too bad they don’t have public stat tracking so you can back up your claims of never dying. I simply don’t believe you. If it were true, I’d say you need to take more chances.
Anyway if you have to run you have already lost the fight. If you don’t feel like you lost then it’s just your own perception. Your enemy probably does. A Thief getting away is part of it’s core design.
The only change that is actually needed is a 1 point DD added to Poison Arrow and maybe Trops utility (fix culling too but that’s just a noob crutch excuse, it won’t matter much). A thief should not be able to initiate damage and remain stealthed. Even if the people who die to this are god awful. Trops are so easy to avoid though it’s hard to justify, even PvE players should know to stay out of red circles…
Other than that, showing videos of a thief trolling bads in WvW proves nothing but how terrible a large portion of the WvW player-base is. You can troll a zerg all day but then you run into 2-5 guided decent PvPers and treat them like the masses and they will roll you hard. I wonder if that’s happened to you yet on your Thief OP?
rofl, the population is just bad, so nerf to stealth needed grin
And no it’s not happened yet… know why?
Because if i get trouble I can teleport away..
Eles are faster than you. Refuge is counter-able by almost every profession. You got one 1200 step and then either Heartseeker spam or shortbow to run which is slower than both Eles and wars not to mention other thieves.
The only change that is actually needed is a 1 point DD added to Poison Arrow and maybe Trops utility (fix culling too but that’s just a noob crutch excuse, it won’t matter much). A thief should not be able to initiate damage and remain stealthed. Even if the people who die to this are god awful. Trops are so easy to avoid though it’s hard to justify, even PvE players should know to stay out of red circles… (it’s loud, gives away their position and has a visible animation along with red outline.. please..)
Other than that, showing videos of a thief trolling bads in WvW proves nothing but how terrible a large portion of the WvW player-base is. You can troll a zerg all day but then you run into 2-5 guided decent PvPers and treat them like the masses and they will roll you hard. I wonder if that’s happened to you yet on your Thief OP?
As “that guy” I want to thank all “those other guys” for being the way you are. The JP wouldn’t be near as fun if you guys didn’t exist trying to make that place a peaceful candy-land.
Nothing is better than entering a quiet JP with eveyone getting along, getting up to the top and punting every kuum-ba-ya, hand holding invader to their death and turning them into angry purple rage monsters. I then smile lording over my creation as the entrance blows up into a huge bloodbath of cearbear rage monsters.
RIP Peg Leg! (but thanks for actually getting me to roll a Mesmer!)
Maybe have perma stealth as an option with a 30 or 60 second cool down? Although from the class stand point I don’t know and would hate to see any class ruined.
I would be completely fine if they redid the entire thief class into a classic toggle stealth profession like every other game has. That is what I wanted when I first started. All the better for trolling.
The point here is, this stealth class and game isn’t like every other MMO and therefore does not use those same mechanics. Balance suggestions along those lines are asinine without an entire class re-write.
Also to this point, making changes like this is only to pacify a large group of lazy gamers who don’t want to bother learning every profession and ability. I have zero problems killing thieves on other profs. It’s such a huge L2P issue. All the lazy zerglings love to laugh at that statement because no one can believe they themselves are just ignorant and lazy yet it shines through with every “balance” suggestion they make (like this OP).
If you can’t pressure someone enough to use it before 3600 units or whatever then what’s the point? You are just mad your group of 10 idiots couldn’t zerg down 1 thief. Next time don’t be a group of bads and leave a couple at the white circle. You do know about that right?
50% run speed was advertised a few months back…lol
There is a hard cap of 33% of out of combat speed in this game. The only thing that breaks that speed are abilities like Ride the lighting and stuff like that. The 50% speed only gets it’s full benefit while in combat and under stealth. It’s still basically equal to normal runs speed out of combat with no buffs.
D/P thieves also don’t get any real distance mobility out of this since they have to stop briefly to cast the blind field and they are only getting 33% of it out of combat. Anyoen with perma swiftness is faster.
If they want to stay perma stealthed they need to leap over that same feild a bunch of times making them go nowhere. The trait is basically for skirmish/combat mobility in one place.
I hope it’s working as intended. Since they got rid of peg leg I made a mesmer specially for JP trolling. I no longer have a trolly KB on my thief but now I have portal and two knockbacks on a JP demigod profession.
P/d thief vs shatter Mesmer. Theif can’t die if he’s smart, same as always. Have to hope he hangs around at about 60% health so you can burst him down at once. Bring dat torch for condition cleanse.
Or use reflect heal with con cleanse food and sigils of generosity. Mesmer con cleanse sucks anyway so it’s not wasted. 90% of Thieves will SR to bail, focus pull to your feet then MI (decoy too if up)+Wrack+BF and you have a dead thief rendering at your feet.
Apparently the izerker has suffered a damage ninja nerf in this patch.
All clones/phants are bugged in WvW right now, none have weapons. They run up to stuff and smack them with their fists. I think it’s actually calculating their damage with no weapon equiped :/ It’s also not doing a whirl finisher. Pretty sure this is a bug and not a nerf.
Xsorus what you are pointing out is that the Thief is one of the best, probably the best prof at killing hordes of bads. That’s all there is to it. I can beat any P/D thief on my Mesmer 1 on 1. No chance for them. If there are 10 bads around me giving them free C&D then it’s more of a pain in the kitten but still. No one is knocking you down. No one is even using a knockback or swinging around the downed players. You are fighting terribles and you know it.
Changes I’d agree with are initial damage from Poison Arrow and the Utility version of trops breaks stealth but subsequent ticks and traited dodge trops would not.
There is no initial damage from Poison Arrow, it creates a field basically.
Same with Caltrops.
Mesmer’s i don’t generally have trouble with by the way….They’re actually one of the easier classes to kill for P/D cause you have lots of free clones to CnD off of.
Granted that doesn’t mean I couldn’t die to one.
I think I was knocked back a few times in that video, I’d have to rewatch it… The very beginning though didn’t really have a mesmer.
you’re right about them not doing damage though at that spot..But really only the Necro could do anything as the Ele died multiple times.
When I played P/D, Mesmers were really easy too but it’s because they don’t know how to fight. My Mesmer uses condition swap sigils on each weapon-set and food that clears condition each heal. The heal itself reflects projectiles. I don’t even use clones/phants just stand there and auto attack with GS and dodge C&D when you get close. Every clone is instantly popped with something. It’s laughable really how easy it is. If they refuge I with focus pull or GS push them out after a couple seconds for them to blow dodges.
I don’t use all the condition swap/clear stuff just to fight P/D either, it’s just because it’s a hole in any shatter build that I wanted to fill.
I played a P/D thief at 80 for a solid 2 months so that of course helps a lot. I don’t think people not fully understanding what they are fighting is cause for a nerf.
As far as initial damage I meant the first tick, they would need to change those two skills specifically.
i don’t see how that build can kill a P/D thief, granted i’ve not played Mesmer since beta so I don’t have a huge amount of knowledge on them.
edit
They could add a small initial hit DD to both effects and that would fix that problem
It’s really simple. Zerk Mesmer auto vs P/D thief’s auto. Without stealth P/D doesn’t clear conditions nor heal well. They get maybe 2-3 free stealths depending on build, BP, the heal and maybe a steal+C&D combo. Openers are countered by reflect/distortion or decoy/MassInvis stealth. Refuge counted by GS push or focus pull. All this while every 10 sec whatever bleeds I have clear off me and swap to them and every heal/reflect I clear the entire bleed stack every 15 if needed.
The key is to not use clones and kite/avoid C&D. I’ll throw out a Bersker when it’s up and instantly shatter it. Stuff like that.
Xsorus what you are pointing out is that the Thief is one of the best, probably the best prof at killing hordes of bads. That’s all there is to it. I can beat any P/D thief on my Mesmer 1 on 1. No chance for them. If there are 10 bads around me giving them free C&D then it’s more of a pain in the kitten but still. No one is knocking you down. No one is even using a knockback or swinging around the downed players. You are fighting terribles and you know it.
Changes I’d agree with are initial damage from Poison Arrow and the Utility version of trops breaks stealth but subsequent ticks and traited dodge trops would not.
There is no initial damage from Poison Arrow, it creates a field basically.
Same with Caltrops.
Mesmer’s i don’t generally have trouble with by the way….They’re actually one of the easier classes to kill for P/D cause you have lots of free clones to CnD off of.
Granted that doesn’t mean I couldn’t die to one.
I think I was knocked back a few times in that video, I’d have to rewatch it… The very beginning though didn’t really have a mesmer.
you’re right about them not doing damage though at that spot..But really only the Necro could do anything as the Ele died multiple times.
When I played P/D, Mesmers were really easy too but it’s because they don’t know how to fight. My Mesmer uses condition swap sigils on each weapon-set and food that clears condition each heal. The heal itself reflects projectiles. I don’t even use clones/phants just stand there and auto attack with GS and dodge C&D when you get close. Every clone is instantly popped with something. It’s laughable really how easy it is. If they refuge I with focus pull or GS push them out after a couple seconds for them to blow dodges.
I don’t use all the condition swap/clear stuff just to fight P/D either, it’s just because it’s a hole in any shatter build that I wanted to fill.
I played a P/D thief at 80 for a solid 2 months so that of course helps a lot. I don’t think people not fully understanding what they are fighting is cause for a nerf.
As far as initial damage I meant the first tick, they would need to change those two skills specifically.
Xsorus what you are pointing out is that the Thief is one of the best, probably the best prof at killing hordes of bads. That’s all there is to it. I can beat any P/D thief on my Mesmer 1 on 1. No chance for them. If there are 10 bads around me giving them free C&D then it’s more of a pain in the kitten but still. No one is knocking you down. No one is even using a knockback or swinging around the downed players. You are fighting terribles and you know it.
Changes I’d agree with are initial damage from Poison Arrow and the Utility version of trops breaks stealth but subsequent ticks and traited dodge trops would not.
The change to agro tables for stealth will help with NPC’s around. Now instead of us having to kill them all or run away at least the Thief will have agro when they come out of stealth instead of them just going on us.
A P/D thief will only blind you if they hit you with a melee attack (C&D) and it is also their main access to stealth as well as their main form of DPS (C&D dmg + the opener from stealth). Starve them of this and their DPS is crap and they get no healing/blinds/con-remove etc etc.
If you are talking about the pistol OH blind field (used in combat) that’s NP for us, just don’t stand in it. The bullet from that will only blind once, auto it away. If you run into a d/p constantly leaping into their blind field just sand near it, they will hit you with heartseeker and it will screw up thief stealth rotation (only the first HS is a free one, the two followups will break stealth, they leap out of the blind field then back over it twice more). Blink straight into it when you see it if you have to.
Noticed both of them last night. Thought the guy I was fighting was just bugged out underwater at first. Clones with no weapons is a huge problem once people catch on. It’s already too easy to identify the real mesmer.
TLDR: A Thief’s biggest weakness is KD/KB that’s why I use GS + x/Focus
What is KD/KB and SR?
I run a nuker mesmer with no condi removal skills (double swords+staff), which works well against glass cannon backstabbers. However, i have worries about condi-perma-stealth thieves, who keeps dodging and stealthing. The only times I won is due to my confusion stacks (chose asura race utility (retaliation and confusion), using a torch. I want to know the basic thief mechanics like how the heck they can dodge all the time? It’s impossible to sword 2 immobilize him and shatter. Even if I do, they’d stealth away, heal up and come again.
knock down, knock back
sr= thief skill shadow refuge. place where thief stay like in house
btw, glass canon thief not a problem for mesmer, problem is survive thief, like d/p or s/p
So I fought a P/D last night a few times 1 on 1 and have a better idea. I feel like my setup is a hard counter to them. All I had to do was auto attack/#3 with GS and only use clones to instantly shatter. I use Sword/Focus + GS. I have sigil of generosity on GS and Focus. Use mirror for heal with the food that gives 100% chance to clean 1 condition each heal.
Pretty much just auto attack with great-sword and lul. Kite and try to Dodge Cloak and Dagger and that’s it (use F1-3 whatever is up on the dodge clone). You will transfer whatever bleeds you do have every 10. If/when they do get into stealth by a C&D, their heal or blinding powder, just use Mirror for their opener. You clean the bleeds and they have 3-4 on them. If you don’t have mirror up just decoy/distort after a couple seconds then get rid of the clone (if you distort make sure you let 1 bullet hit you first or they won’t break stealth and distort is useless unless you time it at the 4th second, if you decoy do it after a couple seconds since it’s long enough stealth to force them out of their stealth). When they use Refuge wait a second (let them blow their dodges that good thieves will spam after refuge) then knock them out of refuge. If I used clones it was to blow them up instantly. Don’t let them hang out.
It may just be my build but the trick no matter what is to not use clones/phants like normal. Only use them when you are going to blow them up right away. edit: and of course stay out of the red circles :P
lets cut to the chase here. the only reason people play thieves is because of the stealth. stealth class thief has most likely sold another 100k boxes due to the stealth trait, which is why anet will never nerf it. the same has gone for every mmo with pvp in it in the past. there is never any justification for having stealth, its simply a class to play for a feel good factor that you can do so much damage without any real repercussions. anybody who disagrees with that last statement should think about the fact that if stealth had a cooldown of 20-30 secs, would they still then play that class? i reckon there would be around 1% of the current thief population still playing a form of pvp.
It would have other things to make up for that cool-down. You are right though. I have played the stealth class since DAOC. It’s always the most fun for me. They are always the best for soloing in open world PvP beucase you can avoid zergs. If TES Online has a stealth class, that’s what I’ll be.
Mirror change is awesome for my build. Food that gives 1 con remove per heal along with Centaur runes = 12 sec of swift, 1 con remove and 2 sec reflection on a 15 sec heal. Healing early and part of a rotation and being protected from range spam. Love it.
regardless what the issue is stealth is killing the roaming part of WvW. I solo roam all the time, I would say 90% of the people I face are thieves . Now days it’s not even single thieves anymore it’s an arms race. Since thieves find themselves facing other thieves now thieves run in packs of 2-3 . As a soloer 1 thief is fair 2 is not beatable 3 is insane.
/e: nah, that doesn’t make sense. It’ll only affect situations where something’s between you and the portal, not between portals. That wouldn’t make any sense.
Will this make it work like a shadowstep now? So if you could’t walk from one end to the other it won’t work? That makes it useless in the JP or any sutuation like that were you want to move up and down.
Generally tl;dr posts tells me more about reading abilities which probably are nothing compared to your leet player skills. If 3 liners are too long and make you feel dizzy, maybe glasses could help you?
Why should anyone bother to read what you type? It’s just exaggeration or lies. In this thread you typed:
Yesterday my guildteam witnessed 2 thiefs making shadfow refugee, a group of 20 people entered, and thats the last we saw of them (they were roughly 8-10 sec. run away from us). Luckily we spotted them and were prepared for incoming, which came, invisible of course. So there we were spamming aoe against an invisible force attacking us. In the mid fight 2-3 of them appeared, then when the match was over we could see most of them again. Still a couple of “red” guys popped up a bit after the actual fight. This is what stealth plus culling does. Players WILL abuse this mechanic as long as it is not considered an offensive exploit. Was this intended Anet? Is this how you want WvW to be played?
A single SR can only blanket 5 people. If a 6th is there it will leave one visible. It’s strange you don’t know that since you play a thief and all. Yea I also saw you say “add a 3rd for 15 plus a Mesmer” later on but the fact is you stated 2 thieves stealthing 20 people. This is the type of uninformed misinformation these forums are chalk full of. Good job contributing to the waterfall of BS. I’m sure this example can be extended to almost any mechanic you complain about.
My 1st character is a warrior i played with it for a long time, get to lv80 and go pvp.
and i just made a thief (never touched one) and got to level 4 and went to pvp and can already kill people with decent speed like my warrior without knowing how most of the skills work. and can deal with multiple people and escape while needed.
some times even doing better then my warrior
it’s really really good
also it helped me with my warrior about how to deal with thieves.
Could you post a video of your level 4 thief, killing and dealing with multiple people. I would love to watch.
A large majority of Theif QQers pick up the profession so easily and pwn everyone in sight because they were amazing WoW arena players don’t you know? It’s strange that they always seem to get mechanics wrong and suggest asinine profession breaking changes though, not sure how that works out.
Just remember this thread originally wasnt about thieves 1v1, it was about abusing the stealth mechanic, which is the most interesting topic. WvW is about large scale combat, not 1v1 or 1v5, thats spvp.
WvW is a sandbox style about whatever the player wants it to be. Anet has even said they are looking for ways to encourage smaller scale play in WvW so stop trying to force your play-style on everyone else k?
Every prof has builds that counter Thieves almost 100%. I used to main a Thief now a mesmer. I have no problems killing Thieves in fact they are my favorite kill. This would be the same for any prof I choose to play and invest the time to L2P it. People saying they take out 5+ no problem are fighting bads plain and simple and WvW is full of bads.
I main’d a Thief and now a Mesmer. I play shatter. For sure you need blink to survive their burst, just using decoy you will end up dead in stealth from autos.. You will almost always eat steal+C&D so you have to blink before the backstab. They will almost always go right into stealth at this point one way or another or Spam heartseekers then stealth. If HS, then Decoy^Evade (always evade here, don’t heal until ~200 units away and in stealth, HS tracks even after decoy is hit due to lag). If it’s SR push/pull them from it (I use focus and GS for this) and then continue the fight. If it’s not SR then simply count a couple seconds then evade backwards (clone), MirrorI, BF+MW. Chances are you revel a dead thief.
Against a condition based stealth spam it’s way harder. I would try to kite and get 3 phantasms out and leaving them. They will instantly attack them each rotation but also give them free C&D targets. I use the reflect heal so channel that right after they start opening. With the con remove food you will clear the first bleeds and they will have just put a few on themselves. Once you get the 3 phants up, wait for their opener, then use a KD. Make sure you get them to blow shadowstep+return from a KD before you go for it all (wait 20 seconds or force a return) then KD them again after they come out. With 3 phants up, you should be able to KD them then shatter on them if you time it right. You really need to pay attention to what they have blown. Always assume they have Shadowstep and SR. Always evade if they run at you, they are trying to C&D. You have to evade early due to latency.
TLDR: A Thief’s biggest weakness is KD/KB that’s why I use GS + x/Focus
Side question to anyone reading this. How amazing is boon strip per shatter? I’m using 20% GS CD reduction because I go S/F + GS but constant passive boon strips looks too nice…
I can see the need for air or centaur. Mesmer mobility is just as big an issue as passive condition removal. I guess it’s easing one or the other. Maybe the con remove food and sigils with the mobility runes is the way to go. Sorry if this is all old hat, new to mesmer.
The reason for this mentality is the Thief is the least forgiving prof to play when geared for DPS. It’s fine with you know every fight and can dodge/avoid all big damage. Our single target DPS is actually better than warriors. It’s just thieves on average go down a lot due to bad play or learning fights and no one has the patience.
Saffron scented poultry soup removes condition on heal. In some of the builds i run i use it. Its like having ten points in inspiration, without spending the points.
Yea that’s what I’m looking at along with generosity sigils. Looking at runes the best bet would be Lyssa. it gives precision, 10% condition duration (meh) but also a random boon for 10 sec each heal and full condition removal + all boons for 5 sec after MI.
So that gives two passive condition removals via healing and sigial and one mega o ish button with MI. Also turns MI into a more amazing stomping/reviving ability.
Well, of the utility skills you listed veil offers the least utility. Blink and decoy are two stun breakers. (Good for you. I still have to tell people to carry even one stun breaker. >.<)
Decoy >> Veil imo because it’s more offensive. You can use it to mislead the opponent. It really does work as a decoy.
Veil is a light combo field iirc, but you already have access to that with focus 4. So that’s a questionable benefit to your build. MI is a great elite. But honestly with decoy and MI veil is a bit overkill. Don’t forget you have access to distortion on tip of dodging to get through tough spots when your emergency stealth is on CD.
Further more, in wvw roots are the most dangerous ailment. You can get swamped and killed before you know what hit you. That’s why I think carrying a readily accessible utility cleanse is a must. You don’t want to leave it up to chance.
Now, I did think of one thing. I believe some runes might allow you to cleanse a condition on heal. You’ll have to check out the wiki on that though. But I still think running a utility is the best move. Good luck!
Thanks for the input. Yea Blink and Decoy are musts so Veil is the only one I could change. I believe both blink and decoy take care or roots though. So does Sword#3 if I have it up enough.
My attraction to Veil and MI is because run with 1 to 3 other people max so we need to be able to zerg juke. I can drop a Veil then MI after and it does the trick. Zergs are much more dangerous to a small group than conditions afterall :P
Also I like PvP in the JP and portal is needed there. I don’t think I would ever be able to get rid of decoy or blink even in the JP so con remove is still an issue. I will check out the runes too. Maybe those with the food will remove 2 conditions per heal. The mantra heal could even be an option then for 4 quick clears and decoy to re-cast it hmmm.
I’m tied to much to focus offhand. Focus#4 could my favorite ability in this game.
I know I should use a con removal utility, just hoping for a way around it. This would remove 1 con every 10 sec (while fighting) and one each heal. Still might not be enough though.
I’m running a 20/20/0/0/30 shatter/stealth build for small group WvW but con removal is an issue. Currently slotting Null field but I would like to not have to use it. I want to be using blink, decoy, veil (portal in jp) and MI.
Does anyone know if Sigil of Generosity works in WvW? I assume so. I am wondering if putting one of those on each weapon-set and also using the healing food that gives con remove on heal would give me enough con removal along with the 15sec reflect/heal…
A whole bunch of thieves losing and being hit in stealth I like this video I approve
“I saw you… surprise!”
Perfect example. This war is great. Now watch everyone come out and say how all those Thieves must suck etc etc. Learn to Play works when it suits them.
Haha they don’t balance this game around your skill level OP. Sorry to break it to you but top skilled players of every prof have zero issues with Thieves. If you have a problem you you are just a bad in the chorus of zergling bads who QQ every day. Here is a hint about tbis game. It’s not a traditional MMO where you play only one class forever. I play a Thief but also other profs. I have no issues with Theives on any prof because I played one to 80 and know every build and utility down pat. Your problem ia the definition of a L2P issue. You just refuse to get better.
If you think you’ve found a bundle item that should be added to that list feel free to post it in this thread, send me a PM, or send in a bug and someone from the team will look into it.
I don’t really expect an answer but I’m probably not the only one wondering about this:
Why don’t you just have a person go through all existing bundles and set the no-wvw-flag on anything but bundles with visual effects only? It can’t be that hard to build a list of all existing bundles in your game, can it?
You’re not the only one wondering about this and you’re not the only not expecting an answer. I find it laughable that ANet has to ask players which consumables may not be appropriate for WvW.
It’s also laughable that one poster can mention one and get it banned. Why? Because they got planked once while downed and were stomped because of it? All or nothing IMO or use judgement to ban the really OP ones like Gears and Kits.
Thieves killing bads since launch. Many have improved and it’s very noticeable but the vast majority of you guys still just don’t get it.
Don’t get what? The most overpowered and unfun stealth mechanism in mmo history to play against. Wee, let’s whail empty air and hope we hit something.
You’re right, i don’t get it why they came up with such a thing.
You don’t get that Thieves are well balanced at higher skill levels. If you feel the way you do, that just means you are at the lower end skill wise.
Theives are solidly lower middle. People who know how to PvP with all profs know that Thieves are weak and one trick ponies at best. In WvW all the crappy specs seem way better because there are sooooo many bad players to take advantage of.
