Guild Wars 2

SupahSpankeh.8452:

Forgive me if I’m being an idiot, but isn’t one of the easiest ways to confirm this bug when you’re ressing at a big event? Like I have 27khp and get healed for about 800 a tick when being dressed. When I heal someone else with 27khp, they get about 1700 a tick.

Surely that confirms it very easily?

Also, where the kitten are ANet. Their silence is really starting to grate.

That works too as those rez ticks are percentages. Though, to eliminate the possiblity that healing power affects the test and to count the ticks easier, I decided that downed damage ticks were more reliable.

I’m glad my work didn’t go in vain. I just hope it can get to the upcoming patch!

Softspoken.2410:

flow.6043:

flow.6043:

I paid a little more attention to my downed sate in wvw because of this thread.

I was downed at the same time as a thief. We both just auto attacked each other.
Before the thief got back up he was still at about 50% hp, the whole thing was over before fetid ground was even ready to use.
My normal hp pool is 26k btw.

So today I terror-feared a guardian down immediately after going down myself.
This time everything worked properly, I managed to rally ~1 millisecond before the guardian (I didn’t use death’s embrace). The whole thing lasted so long that my fetid ground was almost ready a second time.
Apparently sometimes it bugs and sometimes is doesn’t…?

Honestly, “I won/lost this fight” is a poor way to judge. Just watch the red numbers that correspond to your degen, if possible. Multiply that number by 30 (iirc) and that’s your downed state health pool. Then get downed on any other character with a similar standing health pool and check the degen. Multiply by 30, compare the downed / standing pools between both professions.

Technically you start at 75% downed health pool, and it takes roughly 30 downed ticks to kill that. While full downed health pool is largely irrelevant, it would take roughly 40 ticks to kill that.

E: 2th downed is 50% and 3th downed is 25%. 4th downed is 0% which means no downed at all

spoj.9672:

Kilger.5490:

Doesnt this mean we also heal up to full faster with our life drain?

Honestly never noticed this bug lol. Not much we can do to avoid a stomp anyway (more than 1 person).

No, pretty sure thats done by percentage. Basically this bug just means an attack on us while downed is much more likely to 1shot us, whereas other classes could take maybe 3 of those attacks and be fine and ressed.

Actually it does heal us faster percentage-wise by not being percentage-related. Though there are few situations you can actually use this to your advantage over having more health in downed.

I actually did the original post about this in a thread in this subforum too. It has a better topic name though as this is quite misleading. Still, whatever raises awareness about it is good.

Edit: It’s here https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/necromancer/Necromancer-downed-state-bugged/first

The 1/3 stands if both have same maximum health. In reality it’s closer to what you say because necromancer’s maximum health is likely to be much higher. Direct health values you have are important information. Ticks alone do not tell anything. Downscaling may or may not have effect on it.

TheBlackLeech.9360:

Targuil.3741:

For the last point, yes, it’s an double sided coin. It basically affects three things when scaled to the percentage view: You take 300% of the damage other classes take, and receive 300% of the healing other classes receive. In addition your bandage and other player’s revive heals same 100% that other classes heal. You die 3 times faster to damage, you revive from outside revive/bandage sources 3 times faster and revive’s strength is only 33% of the other classes when comparing to damage. Engineer is downed and he has an ally reviving him and enemy dealing similar dps to revive heals. Change engineer to necromancer and you need 3 allies to counter 1 enemy dps. (abit less because of life leech, still not enough to argue balance)

You are not taking 3x more damage, and you are not getting 3x the healing.
Those numbers stay the same.

Also, the health pool is scaled down, not scaled up.

If your health is at 50 out of 100.

You need to go 50 in either direction to live or die.

If it is 5 out of 10, you only need to go 5 in either direction to live or die.

Also,
Have you tested this personally? I think your numbers are inaccurate.
I just tested this on my Necromancer versus my Engineer and found that the Necro ticks for ~250 while my Engineer ticks for ~450

Which is more in the ballpark of 55%

Unless of course this issue is indeed caused my the scaling formula (as I predicted earlier)

I think you understand the basic concept tho….

In a nutshell….
You die twice as fast, or you live twice as fast.

scaled to the percentage view As in percentage of damage taken to your health. I just gave it another viewpoint. I know the exact amounts don’t change.

And for the tests, downed health is determined by exactly three things: whether you are in pve or pvp (we are in pve here I presume), whether your profession is necro or it isn’t necro (this is the injustice here) and your normal health (which will probably differ). I can’t really say anything about those ticks if I don’t know your maximum health. (Please note that wvw maximum health boost affects this, healing does not). And just to clarify, are those revive ticks or downed damage ticks and are your characters level 80 in level 80 zone?

TheBlackLeech.9360:

I don’t completely understand the reason why the Necromancer has less health in downed state than on other professions, but I would like to point out a few things.
3.
This may be intentional.
Although many see this as a negative quality to Necromancer downed state, it may indeed be in effect to preserve balance. Now you may argue that the health is not lowered in sPvP, and to justify that PvE Necromancer downed health needs to be buffed, but look at the other side of the coin. If this is intentional, the fact that it does not apply to sPvP might be where the oversight occurred. It is just as likely that the oversight was made in sPvP rather than PvE, and that Necromancers should be slightly weaker due to their downed skill #1. Regardless of which side of the coin you find yourself on, the fact that sPvP and PvE have varying Necromancer downed health is DEFINITELY an oversight, and there is no doubt about that. The only way I would have conceived this as “working as intended” is if the Necromancer had less downed state in sPvP rather than PvE, but that is not the case.

It would not be the first time that something in PvE pointed out a flaw in sPvP

4.
This may actually help the Necromancer recover quicker than other classes.
That’s right, if anything this reduces the Necromancer’s downed time when compared to other professions. Whether that is a good or bad thing is based on the situation. If you enter downed state, you only need to heal 1/3 of the hp other professions to revive yourself. I would say that is overall a good thing. (Especially since the Necromancer is equipped with a life-stealing downed skill.) Again, the other side of the coin would be that death might occur faster if you are being attacked (which is almost definitely why you were downed to begin with).

While the Necromancer may indeed be more fragile in downed state, the fact that it has less health is balanced on its own.

I’ve considered the possiblity that necro having same downed health in spvp is an oversight from balance point. If anet comes out arguing that’s the case and nerfs it, then we can start debating whether it balanced. (Knowing the mediocore amount of healing lifesiphon gives, i’d argue it isn’t)

For the last point, yes, it’s an double sided coin. It basically affects three things when scaled to the percentage view: You take 300% of the damage other classes take, and receive 300% of the healing other classes receive. In addition your bandage and other player’s revive heals same 100% that other classes heal. You die 3 times faster to damage, you revive from outside revive/bandage sources 3 times faster and revive’s strength is only 33% of the other classes when comparing to damage. Engineer is downed and he has an ally reviving him and enemy dealing similar dps to revive heals. Change engineer to necromancer and you need 3 allies to counter 1 enemy dps. (abit less because of life leech, still not enough to argue balance)

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/support/bugs/Necromancer-PvE-downed-state-health/first#post1841103

I already posted thread here about this. I don’t mind more visiblity but bumping that one would be better idea.

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Targuil.3741:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

What’s more likely: the max health is lower, or every single degen tick and Bandage/Revive tick is lower, and the Life Leech’s health gain is also wrong when it nearly offsets the degen tick that is also incorrect?

I know for a fact that elementalist has 3 times more downed health than necromancer, and I’m almost certain that goes for every other class too. From my tests I can conclude that degen tick is 2,5% of your downed health per tick, rounded. Haven’t tested revive ticks in various situations but i’m sure they’re a similar percentage per tick. Life leech on downed attack however, is totally different, it’s not percentage and such it does not care about downed health. If we had low enough downed health, it could instantly revive us by healing a single tick.

I know all that. I was pointing out that it would be ridiculous to assume it was anything other than lower max health since it would require every other thing to be telling you the wrong thing, in a consistently wrong manner.

I know you know. Just… having a habit to explain everything over again so that the fact is surely melted into every brain that reads this :p

Yopaye.9053:

a guess could be
they got 100% of normal life*"downed multiplier"

we got ~33% of normal life*"downed multiplier" + ~60% of normal life in ds

or there is somthing wrong with downed health and degen ticks (the numbers could appear 3*higher than real damage ?) the same way we tought ds was 120% of life, we need tests with real damage instead of degen ticks, if not already done…
or there could be no valid reason with (old)class balance to why necro has poor downed health, not even death shroud…
like missing the downed multiplier because … because.

Thing is, they got 300% multiplier, we got 100%. And the degen ticks were debunked by counting how many ticks it takes to die from first downed state. Results should be in page 1. The only thing missing is a “3x” in necromancer downed health equation in pve.

gimmethegepgun.1284:

What’s more likely: the max health is lower, or every single degen tick and Bandage/Revive tick is lower, and the Life Leech’s health gain is also wrong when it nearly offsets the degen tick that is also incorrect?

I know for a fact that elementalist has 3 times more downed health than necromancer, and I’m almost certain that goes for every other class too. From my tests I can conclude that degen tick is 2,5% of your downed health per tick, rounded. Haven’t tested revive ticks in various situations but i’m sure they’re a similar percentage per tick. Life leech on downed attack however, is totally different, it’s not percentage and such it does not care about downed health. If we had low enough downed health, it could instantly revive us by healing a single tick.

Kiriakulos.1690:

This problem and the Soul Reaping problem we had until some month ago could’ve been quickly noted and solved if other life bars had number is them, namely the downed state and Death Shroud.
Guessing what’s the exact amount left is a really bad mechanic.

I totally agree they should just come out and show us the numbers directly.

Thing is, we got 100% of our normal life, plus 60% DS of our normal life. Other professions have 300% of their normal life.

As in, if we got 20000 hp, we have 20000 downed hp and 12000 DS hp, other classes with 20000 hp have 60000 downed hp.

Yopaye.9053:

Panhauramix.2784:

Just a thought here, our DS was our old down mechanic, could it still be tied one way or another to how many “life” we get while down?

lettucemode.3789:

Minor nitpick – DS wasn’t exactly the old down state. When you hit 0 hp you would automatically go into DS. When DS ran out you would go down.

just wondering,.. when “down-ds” was in place, did we start ds with 100% life force or with our remaining lf ?

since we now know that 100%lf = 60% life … add our downed 30% and you’re near 100

can’t see anything else tied to necro and no others class

Actually it would be 100%lf=60% life= 30%+0,6*30% downed health=48% downed by that logic.

Also, this applies only in pve.

Yopaye.9053:

Targuil.3741:

“Game Update Notes – November 15, 2012
—
PvP downed health is now 75% of what it was. This change was made so that in fights where players are slightly outnumbered, they can win those fights by killing off downed enemies through damage rather than needing to use a finishing move. This should not have too much impact on 1v1 fights or big team fights, but it should help players win 1v2 and 2v3 fights if they gain the initial advantage.”

Found this change on the patch notes. It’s related and while I dont know what the downed health in PvP was, I would assume it were same as in PvE before. However, comparing to my tests, It seems that that they only reduced it by roughly 15%, not 25% that is stated. More interesting thing is whether they broke it here, or if they broke it before and did not notice it here yet.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/news/Game-Update-Notes-December-14-2012
Increased downed health in PvP to 85% of PvE downed health, from 75%.

I see, that part working correctly then, thanks for the clarification.

Tristan.7430:

Today I tested a downed state and necro really has a 1/3 hp of other classes.

I think this is a problem big problem especially in the WVW, where enemy get quick res from necro. But I doubt that we will see the bug fix, because devs probably dont read this forum.

They do, we even got a developer post regarding epidemic.

The fact you cannot argue it on balance is based on few things: The healing from first skill is only relevant and has some impact because we have lower downed health so we get lower ticks while in downed so that the low.(And chances are you could just bandage anyway and be way more effective). Second thing is that every other class has something in it’s first downed skill too (except maybe warriors, unless it’s damage, not sure about eles). Thiefs have bounce+cripple, mesmers confusion, rangers bleed etc. Yet all of their downed health is identical.

This does not trigger randomly, it happens every time, at least at lvl80. I haven’t tested below that or downleveled but i’m fairly sure this doesn’t affect it in anyway. It’s just a missing multiplier in equation that dictates necro’s downed health in pve.

“Game Update Notes – November 15, 2012
—
PvP downed health is now 75% of what it was. This change was made so that in fights where players are slightly outnumbered, they can win those fights by killing off downed enemies through damage rather than needing to use a finishing move. This should not have too much impact on 1v1 fights or big team fights, but it should help players win 1v2 and 2v3 fights if they gain the initial advantage.”

Found this change on the patch notes. It’s related and while I dont know what the downed health in PvP was, I would assume it were same as in PvE before. However, comparing to my tests, It seems that that they only reduced it by roughly 15%, not 25% that is stated. More interesting thing is whether they broke it here, or if they broke it before and did not notice it here yet.

Another criticism I state to myself about the test is that the ratio i’m using is pretty misleading, especially if you don’t read the text supporting it. (I should take the ratio other way around so it would be inverse, and I wouldn’t have to inverse it for calculations. Currently the bigger ratio-number means lower downed health)

JonathanSharp.7094:

So, we do read the forums.

Right now we’re thinking this ability will go back to being unblockable, as will Currupt Boons. We still want you to need LOS to your target, however. We want these skills to have fun back/forth play on them, while being fair for both sides (the attacker and defender). Keep in mind, these abilities can still be evaded.

And thanks for all the constructive debate in here, great job!

Now that there is an confirmation that we are not forgotten, I will wait eagerly for the next patch to see the obviously broken necro downed state in pve being fixed. (See the thread for proof with empirical testing and math)

As for the epidemic… I never really felt the blockablity of this was the problem of corruption skills. It is the simple failing without any good reasons. (line of sight, dodge, block, miss, out of range, even if they falsely claimed to have failed because one of those.)

Softspoken.2410:

Okay, I tested this a bit. I don’t know if it makes you feel any better, but I’m adding it to the list at the top of the forum.

One thing to note: your spreadsheet makes a point of the health per tick : total health ratio, but it doesn’t point out that between professions a tick of health constitutes the same percentage of their downed state health. As it is I was confused for a bit because it implied that necromancers take less damage than other classes from the downed state degen. (On a static scale they do, but on a % scale relative to their downed health pool, they’re the same as all other professions.) Maybe you could add another row that shows the size of the downed health pool for each profession, and compare that to their ‘standing’ health pool?

Edit: For the record, does this show up in WvW as well? It tends to use the same numbers as PvE, but there have been exceptions to that rule.

True enough, it could be confusing. I pointed out it was wrong later on that post. It isn’t included in the spreadsheet either because I don’t have accurate information for all classes regarding to that. Just necromancer and elementalist. Still, dying after same amount of ticks (precicely 30, but in reality 31 as ticks are rounded down), and assuming your first downed state starts at 3/4 of your downed health, we can say clearly how things are. As necro doesn’t follow same rules as other professions, there might also be another profession which does not follow these rules same way as other professions and my test wouldn’t detect all of those. This is just enough to know that necromancer downed state in it’s very basic calculations is in serious disadvantage compared to elementalist and VERY (99% sure) likely compared to other professions.

And yes, it applies to PvE and WvW as those follow almost same rules.

I would just point them to look how things are in pvp.

It procs for damage, but not for healing if your health is full.

Kravick.4906:

PinCushion.7390:

Yes, but it’s only because of Death Shroud that you can count to 10. Most classes can only get as high as 5 or 6.

Unless you’re a thief or a mesmer. Then you just teleport out of it and never take the burst. Engineers can just Elixir S out of anything and go invulnerable for 3 seconds followed by a gear shield for another 3 seconds. Guardians can actually eat that burst and not go down because protection/aegis/knock back bubble combo. Warriors will just endure pain out of it then shield block through the rest of it if necessary.

I think rangers and necros are honestly the only ones left out in the cold here, unless theres something that rangers can do that I’m not aware of.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/%22Protect_Me%22
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rampage_As_One

Just a reminder as the issue clearly needs more visiblity.

alex.7364:

so in other words its just another nail in the coffin for the few select group playing necromancer ? just another “downside” to chosing necro ?
The funny part is ive read posts from original gw1 players who are crazyly enjoyng beating the C**P out of us necro because it was such a “op” class in gw1& now its just a nuisance

There is no stable argument to defend that mistake. Anet WILL fix it. When it’s happening is another story…

Bhawb.7408:

Bull Zooker.1672:

I would love it if spectral armor gave us stability but cant see that happening.

The problem is if they did that, it would become an exact replica of Elementalist Earth armor, but directly better because of the LF generation.

I guess thats why elementalist’s vapor blade is just as good as rending claws. Oh wait it isn’t.

Point is you cannot base an argument on individual skills between professions but whole builds.

Terrahero.9358:

It would stand to reason that it is not cummulative but total. Seeing as, when you hover over unlocked ranks (f.e. you got no ranks and hover over rank 2) it displays the total amount of points needed to unlock that rank. And not the points needed to unlock rank 2 from rank 1.

Example. It’ll say you need 15pts to get rank2 in Cannon Mastery, if you have none at the moment. 5pts for rank 1 and 10pts to then get rank 2.

Yet taking level 2 cannon mastery still gives you the bonuses of level 1 cannon mastery while it would not be that in other skills except ballista.

Turial.1293:

BaconCatTheGreasy.9542:

Necros get to syphon health with their downed 1 skill. I guess this is intentional.

Wouldn’t it be nice if a dev could bother to give us that explanation rather than us playing for months with uneven classes and guessing that ourselves. Honestly none of the classes are on equal footing when it comes to downed skills.

Necro – life siphon
guardian – group aoe knockback
ranger – single target stun
engi – single target interrupt which pulls foe closer

Nobody’s skills are equal, but downed health should definetly be equal by design yet it is not in PvE.

Panhauramix.2784:

All that testing seems to concur my first thought: We had DS as a buffer between death, so our down state health was lower to compensate for the “double” downed state.

Now that DS is no longer a death effect, our health was not buffed to compensate.

I can only see this as to why our downed health was so low to begin with. Or it’s a very bad typo from a programmer.

Really nice testing by the way! Kudos to you!

Thanks, I’ve never used google spreadsheets before and graphs even less so I couldn’t figure everything out, but it should show the message clearly.

BaconCatTheGreasy.9542:

Necros get to syphon health with their downed 1 skill. I guess this is intentional.

Then why we have exactly same downed health in spvp as others? Besides, it’s just an element added to our otherwise dull downed attack. Thieves have bouncing cripple, engineers random conditions, guardians piercing beam, rangers bleed etc…

alemfi.5107:

very… interesting… just wondering, how does this affect allies who start reviving you in comparison to other classes being revived?

From my observations and assumptions, you are healed by the same percentage as other professions, and because we have this disadvantage we receive 67% less healing when others try to heal us. In practice this means its much easier to out-damage a downed necro whos getting healed in addition to having less overall downed health.

SupahSpankeh.8452:

Sadly, this’ll jsut get added to the list of kitten which wouldn’t have gone live if ANet had a halfway decent QA team, and then to the list of kitten ANet would know about if they actually read the necro forums.

Your work, Targuil, is exceptional. Unfortunately the work of ANet cannot be said to be of the same standard.

I posted the same thing on bug repost section. I really hope they read it.

E: A random observation: When I counted the ticks down and died on the 31 (31 because it seems to round down, so you survive 30th which should probably be when you die), I thought if I could figure out the exact downed health we have. Assuming downed state without penalties starts at 75%/100%, or 3/4, we can multiply the number of ticks taken by 4/3 to get the total downed health lost from ticks, which is the whole bar. 40*482=19280. And my necromancer had 19291 health. If we assume there is a rounding error there, the numbers look pretty much identical to me. That means in PvE, necromancer’s downed state is 100% of his normal health, while other professions have 300%. You can do the same calculation for other professions and end up with 300%. Easiest way to test this is to down vs random single animal without damaging it at all, have a friend to kill the mob so it doesnt attack you even once when you are downed, count all ticks it takes for you to die and do the calculation.

No feedback at all? I guess it doesnt matter that we have 67% less downed health in more than half of the game.

Anyone can test these themselves. It is clear there is some missing number (probably straight 3*) in necromancer’s pve downed health formula.

Softspoken.2410:

Targuil.3741:

Problem with CoE is that the main boss you fight many times each patch, in all except path 3 spams total condition removal on himself every 5 seconds, making condition damage lacking. In addition there’s another boss which has a turret spamming him condition removal constantly. As for the power glass cannons, they work wonders there, and in every dungeon.

I find that boss an odd example, since I feel like necromancers can actually counter it rather well. Wells can damage the boss + two turrets simultaneously, and Life Transfer can hit all the turrets + the boss if you stand in the right spot. Piercing life blast (questionable, admittedly) and staff auto can also hit a turret + the boss. So a power-based necromancer can actually attack at least one turret of their choosing without sacrificing that much damage.

So you can take out the cleansing turret yourself, then use corrupt boon on the boss to give it vulnerability, confusion and poison that lasts about until the turret comes back up anyways. If you manage to get the cleansing turret and say, the protection turret down at the same time, you can drop well of corruption instead.

For me, the most difficult part of CoE in general are the subject alpha fights, and the difficulty there has very little to do with your profession. (It’s about if your team can coordinate enough to stack properly while having someone lure the ice blast, or group dodge at the same time while properly clearing crystals.) I’d wager the kick was at least as much because you were new to the dungeon than because you were a necromancer.

My text only applies to conditionmancer, not power glass which I mainly play and I agree with all of that.

Time to bring some math to the table:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AmyNeYH2QDd_dEV2ZUZuRTVjUHRsWUdDNHVuNllNbXc&usp=sharing
Excuse my horrible table-editing skills.

Everything was done in lvl80 area with lvl80 character and heart of the mists.
What we can see here is whole a lot of rounding errors due to game rounding numbers. That aside, numbers in PvP are virtually same, every profession is equal in terms of downed health. In PvE however, we can notice a huge anomaly. Necromancer’s Health/Tick ratio roughly 40,0 while other professions have roughly 13,3. This is important to get every profession on same footing as test professions had different amounts of maximum health.

Conclusion: Necro takes 1/3 of the tick at same maximum health as the other professions. As things work with percentages, it means that there is 2 possiblities, one of which is highly unlikely.

1)Necro has 1/3 of the downed health compared to other professions.
2)Necro takes 1/3 per tick compared to downed health compared to other professions.

And here we disprove that: I made my self down, counted the ticks it took me to die from first down. I died on 31th tick. The elementalist did the same and counted 31 also. With the higher ticks.

Final conclusion: Necromancer in PvE has 1/3 of the downed health compared to every other profession in the game. This issue does not exist in PvP.

Other things I tested but not include in spreadsheet:
Healing power has ZERO effect (WvW bonus may have effect, can’t really test it reliably, though it wont matter in this case, everything was tested at same bonus %)
Ticks are directly increased in same ratio as your maximum health increases.
Current deathshroud % (or maximum deathshroud if traited) has ZERO effect

Problem with CoE is that the main boss you fight many times each patch, in all except path 3 spams total condition removal on himself every 5 seconds, making condition damage lacking. In addition there’s another boss which has a turret spamming him condition removal constantly. As for the power glass cannons, they work wonders there, and in every dungeon.

Panhauramix.2784:

I noticed too that I die pretty fast while downed, but it doesnt seem to be always the case.

Just a thought here, our DS was our old down mechanic, could it still be tied one way or another to how many “life” we get while down? My DS bar is normally empty when I’m down, that’s the only explanation I can see vs another class.

Makes sense it could be that as so far necro is the only class i’ve noticed to have such weakness and the only one to have his downed state changed. In fact, It could be that necro has exactly same hp in downed as normally. It’s tough to calculate though.

Anyone else has any constructive insight on this?

spoj.9672:

Targuil.3741:

spoj.9672:

This would explain why once i go down I get finished off so quick. Most things will kill me in downed state in 1 or 2 hits whereas on other classes its fine even with full zerker. Also I always feel bandage heals alot more/faster and builds up quicker on any class other than the necro. life transfer doesnt even counteract the degen while downed. Downed state on necro definately needs to be looked at.

I can’t comment bandage as I haven’t really played any other class besides necro, but I assume it also ticks for some percentage of your downed health making it equal speed to others.

About the life leech, if nobody damages you while in downed, but you are actually in range of something, you can rally from spamming life leech over and over. Though this may need some special foods like mango pie (gives health every second) or omnomberry ghost (lifesteal chance on crit), or the bloodthirst trait. In that scenario its better to just bandage most of the time.

Well it hasnt worked in my experience while using lifesteal traits and lifesteal food. Though i guess its possible it works with mango pie seeing as the hp pool while downed seems to be very low. It does get your hp up a bit for the first couple of seconds but then the degen starts to get a little more painfull. Ive never once managed to heal myself to rally with life leech i either had to avoid damage and use bandage (slowly) or kill a mob or wait for a teammate. And seeing as i seem to die so fast in downed state if something still has aggro on me, I need my teammates to be very fast. Its a bit of a pain but thankfully i dont get killed often enough for it to really bug me.

Degen in downed is constant, it doesn’t change unless you use bandage. For me the biggest problem of this issue comes in wvw zerging. When you get down, chances are you die. Much higher chances than any other profession in downed if you don’t take aoe tagging into consideration.

Well done.

Now for the questions: Is there some technique I am unaware of, which makes lupicus cast his bubble less frequently. I watched the whole thing and I didnt see triple bubble even once. If lupicus did double bubble, wasting your cooldowns, how would you react to subsequent bubbles, tank it? I know toughness pumped necro can easily tank bubble with shroud, but could your shroud+hp last 3 full bubbles?

On a side note, i’ve been able to solo arah p2 up to lupicus phase 2 as berserker necro. I know I could make it to phase 3 if I would bother to use sigil of energy. For phase 3, my bubble safeguards would be shroud stability, wurm, plague and two bone minions and I still don’t know if that would be enough with my bubble luck.

spoj.9672:

This would explain why once i go down I get finished off so quick. Most things will kill me in downed state in 1 or 2 hits whereas on other classes its fine even with full zerker. Also I always feel bandage heals alot more/faster and builds up quicker on any class other than the necro. life transfer doesnt even counteract the degen while downed. Downed state on necro definately needs to be looked at.

I can’t comment bandage as I haven’t really played any other class besides necro, but I assume it also ticks for some percentage of your downed health making it equal speed to others.

About the life leech, if nobody damages you while in downed, but you are actually in range of something, you can rally from spamming life leech over and over. Though this may need some special foods like mango pie (gives health every second) or omnomberry ghost (lifesteal chance on crit), or the bloodthirst trait. In that scenario its better to just bandage most of the time.

Bas.7406:

Targuil.3741:

Snip

If you were using your 1 attack while downed, than you need to remember it heals :P.

I didn’t use it but it wouldn’t have made much relevance to this as you continue to get damage in downed normally. I dont know exactly how much health we have in downed but I assume you’d need ~150ticks of ~200 healing it heals (vampirism helps it a bit), to make things equal. If you somehow can survive that long in downed, chances are you could’ve just used bandage and healed up much faster anyway. In almost any realistic situation you’re not going to get even CLOSE with those who enjoy 3 times more downed health.

So I performed some testing about this issue.

First off I’m assuming following premises are true:
1) Downed state health is directly in related to your normal health.
2) Downed state damage taken per tick is a percentage of your downed health.

Me as a necromancer and my friend as an elementalist simply got downed against a normal wolf without any special abilities (besides summoning another when low health) and we watched how much damage we got each second when not using bandage. This was done in PvE, in a level 80 zone.

My necromancer had 19453 health while elementalist had 17019. My necromancer was damaged while downed at a rate of 486 hp per tick, while the elementalist was damaged 1276 per tick.

Assuming the premises are true, and if I had same downed health as the ele, I should’ve been damaged by (19453/17019)x1276=~1458 health per tick.
Instead I only got damaged by 486 per tick. Roughly, that means elementalist in general (cant speak of other professions yet) has (19453/17019)x1276/486)=~3 TIMES MORE health than necromancer in downed state.

That is all for now.

It may need more testing such as counting all resurrection ticks to get the real downed health calculated, taking the reviving while in both downed and defeated and in combat/out of combat, recording the downed health bar while taking damage and testing it with all professions and in the mists. Also comment if my premises are false and what it could change.

I’ve DEFINETLY noticed this happening various times (especially when comparing survivablity with other classes in downed state vs lupicus blasts)

We need to keep this up.

Colin slipped, Mordremoth confirmed.

Dont forget our downed mode combo field.

I remember testing it and seeing an increase from 79 to 119 /w bloodthirst.

Bas.7406:

@targuil, The problem with sigil of battle is it requires weapon swapping every ten seconds to be effective since I am in Death shroud that’s not possible. Plus over a period of time sigil of superior strength can surpass sigil of battle.

I ran with 80 percent duration using sigil of hotel talk, strength, and fire. And only 20 in death magic. The difference between 80 and 90 percent on Reaping is still only one second there is no need to do the extra 10 percent because of casting time.

Fair enough, might not be useful enough for power based might stacking. For condition/hybrid might stacker it might be better as they swap more often anyway.

Over a period of time, lets say we have 0 boon duration as it doesnt really matter over a period of time. Superior sigil of battle, when swapped every 10 seconds, maintains 6 mights permanently(3 might for 20 seconds per swap) . Superior sigil of strength has 2 seconds proc cooldown, but lets assume it procs as soon as possible, providing 5 permanent might stacks (1 might for 10 seconds per proc). If you add boon duration however, sigil of strength will get to its maximum stacks in shorter time than battle (20seconds vs 30 seconds with 100% boon duration)

Bas.7406:

Bhawb took 30 points in death magic and picked up 2 superior runes of strength and 2 superior runes of fire giving him approximately 70 percent increase in boon duration if it’s additive which we figured it was.

Add 2 superior runes of Hoelbrak for another 20%, bringing it to total 90% (It makes BiP last around 23½ seconds while having 24 cooldown if traited)

Softspoken.2410:

Pendragon.8735:

Bas.7406:

Interesting tidbit 2: Might can only hit 20 seconds,

Not sure what you tested for this, but I use a Signet of Battle on my staff and with 10 Points in Death Magic, it lasts 22 seconds.

There is also a Might trigger on the Pirate Runes which I use for farming and that one lasts 30 seconds.

I think he meant the might from Blood Is Power can only last 20 seconds. I was under the impression that bonus boon duration maxed out at 100% for any given boon, so with BiP’s base duration of 10 seconds, you can’t stretch it past 20 seconds.

There’s definitely sources of Might that last longer.

I’m not entirely certain boon duration is capped though, so don’t quote me on that.

BiP has base duration of 12 seconds, not 10.

You should consider using superior sigil of battle. With it you can maintain 20+ might with BiP without even touching LB. That way you can go hybrid and do extreme bleeds+good base damage (Though bleed duration suffers as you need might duration).