Guild Wars 2

5:53 compared to brazil’s ~4:55 if we start counting from explosion (and warrior/rangers would trigger the beginning faster and be generally faster with leaps and stuff). Still, not bad at all, not bad.

I’m pretty sure that jagged horror’s bleed damage is independent of your condition damage as from my testings with lich form, my jagged horrors bled for significantly more than they should’ve. (By default they don’t show the ticks flying but in some situations you can see them)

It is a bug where you can fall through the land (to water below it) in certain circumstances combined with many underwater attacks which do not need line of sight to hit.

Just abusing a glitches/bugs, but by no means a hack.

If you are powermancer, just generate enough LF to absorb the damage, you should be able to generate quite a bit in few rotations.

If you are conditionmancer, may the god have mercy on your soul for alpha will not.

If you’re gonna go hybrid, at least go full zerk on all jewellery, they give better returns for each crit damage % than armor compared to other stats.

Mr. E=Edward Snowden…

…

Snowden Drifts!

this would kill Death Magic for good. (It’s already dead)

6-10k crits with straight 100% chance in CoE. 2-4,5k crits in soldier’s gear with 64%/84% (fury) chance in wvw.

Azraeel.1238:

Blaine Tog.8304:

Ok, I just went and tested this in the Mists. The build I was using has 28,113 health and 0 points in Soul Reaping.

From full DS to 0, just sitting there doing nothing, took about 25 seconds.

I attacked the Warrior NPC, popped DS, and let him hit me freely. From full DS to 0 took approximately 13 seconds and according to the combat log, the Warrior hit me for 26,957 points of damage during that time, of which a negligible amount wrapped around to my health. If we assume I lost 52% of my Life Force simply from natural degeneration over the course of that 13 seconds, that implies that my DS had a total equivalent HP of 56,160 or so, or roughly twice my HP.

That sounds insane to me but I tested this again and came up with similar results. Can anyone corroborate, or point out where I made a mistake?

The reason you came up with “twice” is because you assumed 52% came from natural degeneration. I wish we get some dev reply on this as such assumptions are hard to believe.

If 25 seconds of natural degen takes 100% of DS, or 4% per second. If you were in it for 13 seconds, you would take 13*4%=52% of DS in natural degeneration.

Blaine Tog.8304:

Ok, I just went and tested this in the Mists. The build I was using has 28,113 health and 0 points in Soul Reaping.

From full DS to 0, just sitting there doing nothing, took about 25 seconds.

I attacked the Warrior NPC, popped DS, and let him hit me freely. From full DS to 0 took approximately 13 seconds and according to the combat log, the Warrior hit me for 26,957 points of damage during that time, of which a negligible amount wrapped around to my health. If we assume I lost 52% of my Life Force simply from natural degeneration over the course of that 13 seconds, that implies that my DS had a total equivalent HP of 56,160 or so, or roughly twice my HP.

That sounds insane to me but I tested this again and came up with similar results. Can anyone corroborate, or point out where I made a mistake?

Either they screwed up or the mechanic could actually be now, you know, useful again for damage mitigation.

+50% downed damage, 6 runes of afflicted and bowl of fire salsa.

Kanto.1659:

Is Force really superior to Fire (or in this case, Air)?

I’m not quite sure, I use it in my staff for burst power. Thing is that after my intial burst my hits per second drop dramatically (only lifeblasts) that even if I crit every time it’s still going to take a while to proc, dropping its damage potential. For dagger users It might very well be better, haven’t used it for a long time though.

Puandro.3245:

Targuil.3741:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXdGjHVR8mw

~19-20 seconds judging by the cooldown of BiP.

Full berserker with ruby orbs
Sigil of force+bloodlust
VI/VIII/XII
IV
-
-
VI/II/XII

Full bloodlust stack, butternut squash/superior sharpening stone as foods.

Could use scholars+sigils of night/undead slaying and potion of undead slaying for even bigger boost but I kept it as general dps. Also speed to rotation could be faster (used 1 unnecessary axe auto, could maybe use DS5)

Dagger Auto does more damage than the new Lifeblast BTW…. even with the trait.

There’s ALOT of theorycrafting in the other threads regarding this same thing. We came to a conclusion that in reasonable situation the dps difference was below 1%. (DS tailored build vs Dagger tailored build).
Hint: Note how every hit crits compared to dagger.

I agree that warrior banner and permafury from outside sources would put the dps in favor of dagger overall.

Nord.1492:

Hey Targuil,
was the Sigil of Force+Bloodlust in the Dagger/Warhorn?
What Sigils you use than in the Axe/Focus?

Same sigils in both weapons.

Yeah it was prenerf quickness… though still insane. If i went through and perfected my buffs, I could maybe reach ~15 seconds.

~19-20 seconds judging by the cooldown of BiP.

Full berserker with ruby orbs
Sigil of force+bloodlust
VI/VIII/XII
IV
-
-
VI/II/XII

Full bloodlust stack, butternut squash/superior sharpening stone as foods.

Could use scholars+sigils of night/undead slaying and potion of undead slaying for even bigger boost but I kept it as general dps. Also speed to rotation could be faster (used 1 unnecessary axe auto, could maybe use DS5)

It actually hits 7 times (1 time instantly at cast, followup 6 times, 1 per second). A full well of suffering gave my enemies 14 vulnerability (2 per pulse) and well of corruption lasted as long as well of suffering. Haven’t tested other wells though.

E: This info is from few patches ago, after they modified well tooltips to the current ones.

E2: Confirmed for hitting 6 times only as stated before, vulnerabilitys stacked only to 12 even with high duration.

I could record a power test today, though my editing skills suck so hard I don’t even know how to get accurate time on it.

I vote we only play Keg Brawl for the rest of the week.

spoj.9672:

Targuil.3741:

spoj.9672:

SnyderHall.7263:

snip

Even interrupting with dodges its still more dps. You cant compare solo to a group setting anway. But even if you do, your ignoring that on that giant kill i didnt have bloodlust or force on my weapons and i still came close to beating the DS build. If i had a fully stacked bloodlust im pretty sure I would of cut off atleast 5 seconds. Bare in mind every attempt I made i was on target for a 18 second kill until I had to dodge twice at the end. In a longer fight I would of made up for the lost time.

My conclusing of those tests was that the DS build is better for solo but in a group setting dagger builds are always gonna out dps even if you have to dodge constantly. DS builds generate buffs for the necro, but in a group you dont need that as much as your group will be buffing you. Anyway I dont to derail this thread. They are different playstyles, play what you want to but if your trying to maximise damage melee is the way to go even for a necro.

Bloodlust stacks give 250 power, which at around 2500 base power, give around 10% damage boost or 10% faster kill speed which would make it 22,5 seconds, which is around same as mine. And I’d like to note that I did dodge once there when the giant stomped. I don’t know what sigil you used in place of force though.

Had accuracy. Were you using undead potion? I wasnt :P. I was far from optimally geared but w/e. Im not gonna bother discussing these things anymore. Its pointless argueing with some of the people on these forums. The amount of times i try to help new players and get stuff thrown back in my face by someone who doesnt even do high level pve on multiple classes is depressing.

Ps. That wasnt directed at anyone in particular, some of you guys are some of the more intelligent and polite posters in these forums. :>

Didn’t use pot (used superior whetstone), but the end difference is quite marginal and I agree we’ve pretty much explored all possiblities but I’m still up for a debate,

spoj.9672:

SnyderHall.7263:

snip

Even interrupting with dodges its still more dps. You cant compare solo to a group setting anway. But even if you do, your ignoring that on that giant kill i didnt have bloodlust or force on my weapons and i still came close to beating the DS build. If i had a fully stacked bloodlust im pretty sure I would of cut off atleast 5 seconds. Bare in mind every attempt I made i was on target for a 18 second kill until I had to dodge twice at the end. In a longer fight I would of made up for the lost time.

My conclusing of those tests was that the DS build is better for solo but in a group setting dagger builds are always gonna out dps even if you have to dodge constantly. DS builds generate buffs for the necro, but in a group you dont need that as much as your group will be buffing you. Anyway I dont to derail this thread. They are different playstyles, play what you want to but if your trying to maximise damage melee is the way to go even for a necro.

Bloodlust stacks give 250 power, which at around 2500 base power, give around 10% damage boost or 10% faster kill speed which would make it 22,5 seconds, which is around same as mine. And I’d like to note that I did dodge once there when the giant stomped. I don’t know what sigil you used in place of force though.

Spectrals working in DS means you pretty much can’t lose DS while in DS for the duration of spectral walk/armor if you have tanky enough gear. How good this works for spvp? Probably doesn’t as it doesn’t protect you from conditions which will get piled up pretty badly.

Anything but vizu

Were you under effect of weakness for glancing blow or did you attack mobs higher than your own level?

One of my guildie actually put down engineer turrets in Defense of Shaemoor, healing skill to autocast and leveled to lvl 80 over around ~400 hours of playtime.

Just noting that because of critical hits, dagger dps compared to DS dps is almost identical. Dagger has much more raw damage but DS crits always. They even out. (This is before calculating might stacking/vulnerability from DS1)

Molch I suspected the same about % stacking but wasn’t sure and wiki was wrong so I didn’t mention it. Still, it only makes % stacking all the better which is nice, and it means scholar runes would give DS a considerably bigger boost than ruby orbs even and being over 90% health in DS means you’re getting the boost.

Well of corruption gives 1% lifeforce per pulse per target hit and does around half of suffering’s damage too.

I should also add that while I point out about minor technical things I greatly appreciate the work you do for the community. I like to research available options but I seldomly share it on grand scale unless the topic gets brought up.

@Nemesis
About the build, DS5 and aoe: Fair enough, It does have limited aoe capacity and yes I was talking about dungeons. DS5 damage is also delayed so overworld mobs are dead by then thats for sure.

About the giant, it was 23 seconds with similar DS build as yours, not condition. I had 7-8 seconds left on the cooldown of BiP with which i started the fight when the giant died. I also had to dodge the stomp once or twice resulting in DPS loss. Condition builds can probably do it quite fast too, haven’t tried really.

Yeah I was wondering about the quickness proc on dagger too, but with 45 second cooldown and quickness nerf, I’ve been quite hesitant to try it anymore. Warhorn 5 is an interesting case too. Haven’t tested its’ actual cast time+after cast to determine if its worth it. I guess it is.

Yes you can get dagger crit rate to high levels in curses build, but for DS build it’s definetly not worth it because, as you said, loss of critical damage and crit rate. The minor bleedoutput isnt that much, but it may lower some other players’ bleed damage slightly, yes.

I completely agree about the uptime and the concept of that though.

Couldn’t listen because I’m at work currently but watched still a bit. Quite similar to mine, I just don’t focus on stacking might as my group gives it to me and because signets get removed in DS, I don’t use signet of spite either.
About the damage bonuses:
1) Strength of undead is flat power depending on your current LF, not , it also has more stages (0/40/60/80/100 power iirc)
2)While Wiki lists axe training damage bonus as 10, but from previous tests done somewhere, people came to conclusion that it’s 15% (10% value is from some older tests closer to release)

About DPS rotation: It’s worth to cast tainted shackles for at least aoe rotation. The damage listed in it is terribly wrong: You can crit 3-4k+free torments with it for quick casting time (though longer than listed so It may not be good enough over lifeblast for single targets)

Killing Veteran risen giant: While I agree this build has slow buildup for constant might, the killspeed on giant was quite bad (~40s with stack). It’s possible for necro to kill it in around ~23s. (Warrior can do it well below 20s, he probably had undead killing potions, I didn’t. Neither Did I swap weapon after reaching 25 stacks.)

DPS test: Now this is interesting. In the other thread we were doing some math. The dps test you did is quite good and everything in it can be applied in grand scale to other things now. Thing is… by itself it isn’t much. It’s just the DPS of those 3 means of attacking without any crits taken into account, but those can be calculated in with ease. And with crits taken into account, both lich and DS should be around 100% so their relative damage increase doesn’t change. Lich>DS (0 might) with no doubt. Dagger however falls behind with it’s lower critrate will fall behind, or maybe come even if buffed with fury (Quick calculation from your critical stats results in almost 40% damage boost for lich and DS when you raise your crit from 54% to 100% at 110% crit dmg) (0 might). Now if we take full mightstack into account, the tides might actually turn in favor of DS dps. This is all relative to your current power (and somewhat critrate/crit power). I can do it later with your stats if you didn’t do it verbally already (or If it’s in some part of the video and slipped past)

Spectral Wall cannot be dodged by enemies in it’s current state. It still fears them unless they have stability.

If you buff spectral skills any more by reducing their cooldowns, you practically make necros unkillable tanks in WvW. Traited, spectral walk is 12/48 uptime, spectral armor 8/48 and you can get 6/60 spectral armor SR minor master trait.

Hint: Spectral+Soldier’s gear+DS

Bones.5762:

have you guys already tested out what a MM build might bring to this? since mostly everything is single target, running 3 minions each, thats like 15minons, plus 5 players, around 20 doing dmg, would MM build do more dmg than straightup regular?

I highly doubt minions would do any extra damage over the well+DS combo. I could see it possible if all of these are true: Minions survive the whole encounter (time wasted to recast them is way too high anyway, not to mention no dps while dead), the encounter lasts almost until wells would’ve come out of cooldown again and you’re fighting single target only. Also have to remember there is little room for minion damage trait in DS build. For dagger build I you could get it without much problems.

Weapon stats work in transformations now. Lich does much more damage, sadly the stat capping bug <80lvl still persists.

Lifeblast with traits without deathmagic can maintain around 10 might and some vulnerability (around 6-10 on bosses) and double on normal mobs. Also one more noteworthy thing is that dagger build has room for spiteful talisman for quicker vulnerability burst from focus. For TTW 8% could be pretty average and good assumption.

Mammoth.1975:

Sorry you’re right. And the 30/25 build has 55 (65 average with self fury uptime assuming flawless ds flashing) so the actual equation would be:

(1*0.97*2.62+(1*.03))/(1.3*0.65*2.47+(1.3*0.35)) = 1.01

A one whopping percentage as base value haha. At least we somewhat figured out where to start before applying other modifiers such as food and group buffs.

Mammoth.1975:

I actually don’t know how scholar works in DS. There used to be a bug that counted you as zero health, but it’s been fixed for siphoned power at least, haven’t tested the runes that trigger on certain health percentages.

DS health percentages are fully fixed. They work correctly with traits and runes. That means staying in DS while over 90% gives you the 10% bonus for the whole time in it.

Also I tested the lich again in CoE run. It does indeed take your weapon stats now. Result is huge damage boost to it: 180 power, 128 precision, 10% crit damage, 5% sigil of force, ability to get stacks and 15% damage from axe mastery. Not too shabby. It does definetly surpasses anything else for 30 seconds even though Might may not give it as big percentual boost as to others. Shame the statcaps still exist for lower levels.

Edited for correct values, its 39% not 77% as i first calculated.

Mammoth.1975:

But for total damage you have to factor the 30% extra power per second being applied, and the noncrit damage, plus I think the optimal DS build only has 40% base crit or so.

So (1*0.9*2.62+1*(1-0.9))/(1.3*0.6*2.47+1.3*(1-0.6)) = 1.005. Half a percent difference, very close. All the little extra stuff like 3% extra damage from target the weak over strength of undeath, base attack values and so forth is going to come into play. These are theoretical maximums of course, and we could talk all day about the relative virtues of range, maximum deathshroud uptimes, group compositions with and without fury, etc, etc. I just think it’s probably best if we establish the dps difference, if any, between dagger 1 and ds 1 in a vaccuum before we move ahead with the rest. That makes it easier to apply different situational modifiers to the results.

It would be quite interesting if our ranged option does more dps than our melee option.

Those equations seem to be quite correct after I corrected mine with taking noncrits into account but DS build, with 30/10/0/0/30 with full ascended berserker with ruby orbs has 47% base crit rate without any sigils or food buffs. It might actually be beneficial to go scholar with DS build as you might be able to maintain 90% easier.

Mammoth.1975:

The calculation shows 30% higher coefficient per second on dagger 1 (assuming axe mastery on the lifeblast necro).

30% more of your power is applied per second on dagger 1. That means in a composition where you can maintain 100% uptime on fury, dagger 1 will be better damage. In a 4 necro comp with no external fury source, the basic question becomes ‘is ~40% more crit (average over time) better than 30% more power?’. If it is, it’s worth working out the details. If it isn’t, dagger 1 will be better dps every time. Since as far as I can figure the optimal build for either has 47% crit without fury, the question is relevant, as you will always gain full benefit from deathly perception if you’re optimised for maximum dps.

Actually I just realised it’s more complicated than that due to the different trait distributions… the question is more like ‘is 30% more crit and 15% more crit damage worth more than 30% more power?’

I’m assuming you mean 60% crit rate versus 100% crit rate. In that case, with perfect berserker set without any food, your critical damage on DS build will be 112%, and your build would have 97%. The damage multiplier advantage from crits in DS build is: (1,00*2,62)/(0,60*2,47+0,40*1)=~1.39=39%.. Not to mention if you go for more critical ratey build with stack sigils or foods, I can use power instead. You will however, in addition to basic damage have some from conditions but is it enough?

Molch.2078:

Nemesis.8593:

You are not taking into consideration activation times of skill and the delay between activations… it’s not 50% higher, it’s actually only 20% higher… trust me on that one.

Go to loins arch. Grab a watch and messure the time it takes tho hit the dummys 10 times (100 times if you want) with the full dagger chain. Result: 20.23s
DS1? 15.15s

Therefore DS1 has a cast time delay and whatever you want of 1.5 seconds, Dagger 1 has 2 seconds.

DS1 has a damage coefficient of 1.4 -> 1.4/1.5 = 0.933
Dagger chain has a coefficient of 2.8 -> 2.8/2 = 1.4

1.4/0.933 = 1.5
q.e.d.

Edit: Axemastery, eh? Okay. Effective coefficient is now 1.4 x1.15 = 1.61, coefficient/s = 1.07
1.4/1.07= 1.3
And again, I don’t see any reason to sacrifice those 30% damage.

And I know for a fact, that there are enought ppl out there who melee moss man or dredge trash. Afaik the only two bosses where range is better are shaman and dredge.

Two bosses. In an entire game.

You should also calculate that with 50% more critrate in DS you can invest more in power and still crit every hit. Also your wells will always crit in DS. Pure nontraited damage is much lower yes, but traited may be a different story.

25 curses is a valid argument. however its quite hard to mathematically calculate the dps increase it would provide with precision as opposed to losing 15% critical damage and 50% crit chance in DS and many other things.

It is also a very valid argument that this DS build would suffer a mild DPS loss while not in DS as the crit rate isn’t optimised for dagger usage. Though I haven’t really calculated where the most optimal crit rate is given the resources we have. You can get your dagger crit rate to 100% if you really want as berzerker build, but it may not be optimal.

Also, you cannot directly compare lifeblast skill coefficient with dagger 1 coefficient, even if you take attack chain time into account. Because deathshroud uses current weapon and thus, having a weapon with higher base damage or weapon based damage percentage boosts (axe mastery) is better for deathshroud usage than dagger. Dagger not only has lowest base damage of all contenders (dagger/axe/staff), but it also haven’t got anything else above others. Axe and staff comparison is more interesting. By default, staff is better than axe as its’ base damage is higher, but with axe mastery the axe outshines staff by around 4,5% (calculated as I calculated in some other thread). Axe with mastery naturally outshines dagger in deathshroud by quite a bit. Actually base weapon damage for axe on average is same as dagger, 952, with a slightly larger spread. With axe mastery you’ll do 15% more damage in DS with axe than you would do with dagger.

And I fully agree with Nemesis with playing so you would have 100% DPS uptime. Preferably with the best tool too.

Nemesis.8593:

edit: which one of you has the courage to encourage people to dagger 1 in fractals 48 ?…

Maybe at the mossman ?… maybe at the flame shaman ?… let me think… yeah i know, the dredge !… dagger 1 the 51783641876 dredge, or maybe you like to try to see if your dagger 1 is stronger then the cliffside cultist boss hammer…

You do 1 dagger 1, the boss does 1 hammer 1… boss wins GeeeGeee

I don’t know about encouraging others, but given good situations, mossman is meleeable (if you aren’t his target), flame shaman is meleeable (You won’t have 100% uptime due to dodging, but you can divert his attention to wasting time for pbaoe skills instead of firing arrows and meteor showers to your allies), dredge… you win here, due to lack of cleave compared to lich/DS pierce and due to that insane constant damage output, Archdiviner… I can see a possiblity where you switch between ranges while constantly dpsing him in other forms when out of dagger range. Probably not worth it though.

Nemesis.8593:

I already did the math… it’s in the video currently uploading. The secret lies in the activation times and delay between attacks.

In truth Lich Form attacks the fastest… compared to a full chain of dagger 1. So even though a dagger 1 chain would do more damage then a Lich Form 1… the Lich Form 1 attacks faster then a dagger 1 chain.

You also benefit from the safety of 1200 range which gives you higher real DPS uptime.
Overall Lich Form is a little bit better in terms of damage… and a lot safer.

I know the Lich form is faster than dagger 1 chain. Much faster, probably like Twice the speed. Still waiting on numbers on this though. Pure speed speed or damage does no good, it’s the combination of all.

Safety of lich is kind of double edged sword. You gain alot of range but range only does not grant much higher uptime for all bosses who need attention at any range. (Bloomhunger for example). Also you lose any other tools and utilities for the time which may or may not determine if you survive. Still, I would say it is worth it to slot and use if you run wells (for the well duration for spike damage), if you need to fight at 1200 or multiple targets at long range, or if the conclusion for dps is truly enough to surpass other means at melee range for extended duration, and even more so if it’s true with 25 might too.

Nemesis.8593:

Targuil.3741:

Nemesis.8593:

Why must you go 25 into curses if you already have fury in your group ?… Also the best DPS at the moment is Lich Form because it got fixed in the last patch. In Lich Form you get to 100% critical chance even without going into curses.

If you do go into curses however you apply a lot of bleeding on the target. You literally mess up any and all condition type builds that are in the party with you.

Also your AoE won’t be higher, will in fact be considerably lower…

When you say won’t be as strong, what are you referring to ?… Bursting something down in 30 seconds, it’s stronger… AoEing… it’s stronger… overall DPS – DPS uptime in places where you can’t melee, it’s way stronger…

Lich form (or any transformation elites for that matter) weren’t supposed to be fixed according to patch notes nor they are. They still have statcaps when below lvl 80, and even at 80 lich’s auto has way inferior base damage (boosted to decent levels by lich’s +916x2 power boost) compared to lifeblast/dagger which means you’ll get much more out of the given might stacks for dagger/lifeblast.

Lich Form before the patch didn’t took into consideration your weapon stats, it was like you had no weapons before patch. Now it does… you can even get stacks on your on kill sigils…

Also… does anyone take into consideration the activation time and delay between attacks ?
90% of the entire community think like… “big numbers = good”.

Well I agree thats new information for me that weapons are available in lich, but you can’t say we didn’t have ANY weapon in lich beforehand. If we didn’t, we would do exactly 0 damage with all attacks as without weapon the damage equation goes to zero. We had a some kind of enviromental weapon with weapon strength of around ~960. Pretty average that is.

If what you say is true, Lich got around 180 power, 128 precision and 10% crit damage and two sigils. Power and precision only apply if you are lvl 80 as you would cap those anyway as that mechanic is not changed. Though I would not underestimate those boosts combined with sigils. Those may even make lich surpass dagger and DS even in ideal situations to them unlike before.

Lets assume Lich form has zero cast time, nor you have any utilities(With wells there’s definetly a damage spike in favor to Lich, probably big enough to warrant it’s cast time anyway), nor you use another elite.
Lets assume you have 2500 power which is attainable without might or sigil stacks. Your Dagger/DS does pretty good damage with that kind of power. If we add 25 might, we get 875 power and end up at 3375. 3375/2500=1,35=35% damage boost compared to zero might. For Lich, the power now would be (2500+2x916)=4332. Adding 25 might raises it to 5207. 5207/4332=~1,202=20,2% damage boost compared to zero might. Now the question is, does the Lich’s 0 might dps enough over dagger/DS to cut even with 25 might, making it desireable choice with any given amount of might? Taking the relative damage increase between Dagger/DS and Lichtells us how much dps Lich needs to do compared to Dagger/DS at 0 might. (3375/2500)/(5207/4332)=~1,12=12%.

Does Lich do, on average, 12% more dps than other choices? That is for us to find out. All we need is relevant skills’ co-efficients, crit rate/damage and frame data for attack chain speed. Traiting should give, assuming weapons now fully work with Lich, same boost as for DS(axe mastery) and kitten ost for dagger.

Nemesis.8593:

Why must you go 25 into curses if you already have fury in your group ?… Also the best DPS at the moment is Lich Form because it got fixed in the last patch. In Lich Form you get to 100% critical chance even without going into curses.

If you do go into curses however you apply a lot of bleeding on the target. You literally mess up any and all condition type builds that are in the party with you.

Also your AoE won’t be higher, will in fact be considerably lower…

When you say won’t be as strong, what are you referring to ?… Bursting something down in 30 seconds, it’s stronger… AoEing… it’s stronger… overall DPS – DPS uptime in places where you can’t melee, it’s way stronger…

Lich form (or any transformation elites for that matter) weren’t supposed to be fixed according to patch notes nor they are. They still have statcaps when below lvl 80, and even at 80 lich’s auto has way inferior base damage (boosted to decent levels by lich’s +916x2 power boost) compared to lifeblast/dagger which means you’ll get much more out of the given might stacks for dagger/lifeblast.

Wukunlin.8461:

Targuil.3741:

Show us your full inventory screen. You are upleveled from lvl 3 and while you boosted your damage through stats, your weapon stats most likely remain similar to lvl 80 white weapons instead of exotic.

If you haven’t yet, look at the first attachment, 3164 atk, 68% crit chance, 120% crit damage, that is on par with a berserker warrior in full exotics/ascended

Oh yeah, thats true. Well… that’s pretty kittened dps there :/

Show us your full inventory screen. You are upleveled from lvl 3 and while you boosted your damage through stats, your weapon stats most likely remain similar to lvl 80 white weapons instead of exotic.

Andele.1306:

Just to note since DS scales of the weapon not its increases Staff DS still does more than any other weapon we got (and another reason why it should be staple in each build).

Axe with axe mastery does more damage in DS than staff.

Axe: (857+1048)/2*1,15=1095,375
Staff: (985+1111)/2=1048

Axe with mastety gives ~4,5% damage increase in DS over staff, not to mention extra sigil. Though I am not certain if DS uses offhand at all.

We have worst downed state skills, but got an INSANE hp buff? BETTER NERF NECRO.

Thanks for fixing this though.

PVT gear+traits for spectrals+spectral walk+spectral armor+spectral wall. Use spectral walk/armor before rushing into zerg. Enjoy being unable to die.

Bonus points for getting behind them and fearing them back to allies with spectral wall when they flee.

ryokoalways.3450:

I think the only thing left to try is axe/X and dagger/X weapon set. This is mainly for people that do not go 10 in death magic. I think in that situation, you may as well put the staff away, rely purely on DS as the AoE output, and grab 2 weapon sets and find some rotation against single targets. Pretty much use dagger for dmg, and back off into DS in scenarios where you cannot maintain dps in melee.

Performing the well spike is going to be best in DS as they always crit. During the wells, lifeblasting+100% crit wells definetly outweighs dagger+wells.

spoj.9672:

SnyderHall.7263:

I have seen quite a few people who are saying it in different replies. Some are claiming that dagger auto attacks hit harder without testin DS with axe training on. Or they straight up forget that DS is a powerful aoe option too.

Dagger is still stronger. Axe training makes a small difference but DS will never be more damage than dagger + warhorn on its own. But with Tainted shackles a Target the weak dagger build gets even more damage.

I honestly don’t know which one currently does more DPS. But if you’d like to test the current dagger damage, put on full selfbuffs (including sigil stacks and food, but not envinromental weapons) and go to the left of Melandru’s temple in cursed shore and kill the Veteran Risen Giant. You can use 22 seconds (my approximate time with DS spam) as a benchmark value for the kill.

I did a little dps test. With solo buffs I managed to kill Risen Veteran giant in ~22 seconds without thinking too much of a rotation. (BiP+reapers touch+double wells+DS1111111111)