Guild Wars 2

Mikkel.8427:

You know… I’d be able to tolerate Scepter’s kitten AA if they would just make the following QoL change for mesmer:

Clones no longer overwrite phantasms

I hate feeling locked out of using a skill (scepter AA, scepter block, phase retreat, mirror blade, OH sword block) because I dont want to overwrite one of my phantasms in PvE.

OH sword block summons a phantasm actually. It’s pretty decent. It’s the only phantasm affected by your damage modifiers.

Mogar.9216:

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

Mogar.9216:

it’s face roll vs zerker players with low skill level. It’s not really oped at all. I actually started to save my dazes for defense lately rather than using it to land shatter. A decent player knows a shatter is inc once they get mantra stuned and will pop a breaker and dodge so the stun really becomes a tell for your opponents.

You can time the stun with your burst so that they can’t stunbreak it in time 99.999999% of the time unless you have a teleport like blink.

That WAS true before they nerfed mirror blade. You can cast mirrior blade and then stun blink and shatter. But ever since they nerfed mirror blade damage by nearly a 1/3 it’s no longer possiable to shatter burst someone 100-0 anymore. The shatter damage is never instant. You have to cast MB, hit stun, blink and shatter. while blink and shatter are both insta you still need to wait for blink to happen before hit shatter which is enough time to stun break and dodge.

Yeah, it depends on what class your fighting and what build depending on the one shot. But it’s still a lot of damage that has very little counterplay. And I’m a bit confused by what your saying. While blink and shatter are both insta you still wait for blink to happen? When it’s instant? Think you meant to say mirror blade. Which is true butttt you can time it so they don’t have time to stun break. Simply start casting GS 2, before they have time to react and dodge pop CS and by that time it’s normerly too late.

EDIT: this got onto a second page?

“Confounding Suggestions isn’t really that strong when used with other mesmer CC’s that have cast/animation times.

The problem then is that mantra of distraction is kinda weak by itself when it doesn’t have CS to prop it up."

Agreed.

“That’s just how the balancing will go until devs draw the line in the sand and tell people “No, this game is balanced around team fights, don’t bother with 1v1 complaints.”

And the truth is in an evaluation of a mesmer’s potential in team fights, CS MoD was perfectly fine and continues to be."

True. But seeing as MoD isn’t taken in PvP really why not balance it around where it is taken then? Either way wouldn’t it be better to somehow buff MoD and add more counterplay to CS? That way MoD might have a chance over decoy and you don’t have to worry about no counterplay to CS. Since there isn’t really a way to add more counterplay to CS without nerfing it the buff to MoD would help out the nerf?

vespers.1759:

“oh we can never balance for wvw or 1v1s” is such BS.

I didn’t say you can never, I just said you can’t fully balance around WvW or 1v1s. Honestly I would like PvP, WvW, and PvE to have separate balance but Anet doesn’t like the idea.

EDIT:

“I’m sorry but I see no reason why a mesmer cannot have a build that will gently ease you into the class.”

I don’t mind some stuff to “gently” ease someone into a class. I don’t mind builds that are easy to play. I just think there should be counterplay to said builds/traits. And so I feel CS could use some counterplay. I agree the OP is a troll, he doesn’t say why and he is talking about the class as a whole and simply wanting to nerf because mesmer is “OP”. I’m wanting to change CS to add more counterplay or make it less easy to use. And I even think you could buff some other mesmer trait to counteract the nerf to CS.

Chris McSwag.4683:

In the beta i ran sword/focus + offhand sword/pistol/greatsword depending on the encounter and really enjoyed it. Shield so far feels a bit off to me so didnt really use it, but it seems like it was useful for at least one of the teams that beat the vale guardian.

Those of you that played around with it a bit more, do you think shield will have its place in the pve meta (dungeons/fracs/raids)?

Shield is useful if you need any of the following:

1. More quickness
2. More party wide alacrity
3. More blocks
4. More stuns

You already have a lot of quickness and alacrity, but for longer fights such as those in raids and fractals the extra alacrity and quickness can be nice. In addition, in at least the first raid encounter the stuns are good to for helping to take out the breakbar. So it’s a situational weapon. Good sometimes, sometimes not. Probably will be used for fractals and raids, probably not so much in dungeons. Simply because of the duration of the fight and the difficulty of the fight.

Ross Biddle.2367:

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

Ross Biddle.2367:

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

@Ross Biddle

The burden is indeed on me. And thus I have told you why. Because it’s too easy and has very very little counterplay. Then you come in and are like, nope. And so I’m asking why. And now your like the burden of proof is on me. And I’m like, wah? I just did that! I just showed why the change should be made! Why should the change NOT be made? The only reason you gave is because it’s a nerf. And I said to that if you really think it’s too big of a nerf you can just buff some other mesmer trait. So my question remains, why not make CS have more counterplay and make it harder to use?

The question of counterplay was already address in this thread. To counter dazes including MoD specifically, classes have stability, blinds, aegis, channeled blocks, and of course evades. Good players will see the MoD charges on your bar and bait the MoD casts with evades, thieves in particular do this. More’over the following bursts are mitigated with invulns. I do enjoy a good Ranger who waits to use his Lightning Reflects on an MoD stun/interrupt because he not only gets the stun break, the imob cleanse, but also an evade and gap opener. Most players just build tankier though and avoid the danger of a big burst to begin with. Now, before you go wiping all this away with a haphazard “but stability gets stripped”, so what? Stability is still a counter to CC. Stripping is the counter to the counter. That we need counters, and counters to counters means things are working well.

The conclusion here is that CS has plenty of counterplay already, and making it harder to use equates to little more than redesigning it poorly. Oh and another GM that’d be ushered into obscurity with the suggestions you’ve made would be Mental Anguish. It’d no longer compete with Power Block, and sees little enough use as is.

Here is the only good change I’ve seen suggested to CS, and if I remember rightly it was made under the old “bugged” mantras.

Increase the icd to 10 seconds. Make the idc local to each enemy player as the blind on ineptitude is.

“To counter dazes including MoD specifically, classes have stability, blinds, aegis, channeled blocks, and of course evades.”

Problem is there is no tell for mantra of distraction. Which leads us to the following:

“Good players will see the MoD charges on your bar and bait the MoD casts with evades”

I’m a bit confused as to what you are saying here. Are you trying to say you dodge and after you dodge the enemy uses the stun? If so I don’t see how that quite works. The only counterplay right now to it is predicting it. Which only works if your enemy is a complete idiot and does everything pretty much exactly the same. Having fought a ton of thieves I know what a pain predicting can be. Fortunately most thieves blow there steal when at a distance. Vs a mesmer you don’t have this.

Yes… much gameplay across the classes in GW2 involves prediction. While obviously I’m not going to say something like “spam both dodges, hope for the best”, every time I play PvP I encounter players on every class that are good enough to go deeper into the mind games that come with the gameplay. Maybe you don’t like this. Maybe you’re not there. But it exists and happens every day, and it’s great to be a part of.

Other things that’ve been nerfed since the CS change are the mirror blade bounce, further reducing the might and damage associated with the lockdown burst.

I don’t have a problem with mind games at all. And in fact making it on interrupt would not only increase the skill needed for the guy with CS, the other guy would now be playing the mind game of cancel casting. It’s just now you can at least expect it sometime when your casting a skill. Because my problem is vs CS all the guy with CS has to do is not be a total robot and you kinda can’t do much. Making it on interrupt would now lesson the amount of time you have to guess when it is. And against pretty new players you can avoid CS 99% of the time with cancel casting. Right now it’s just hoping he is really really REALLY obvious. A newer player will just pop his interrupt and thus stun as soon as he can when he sees you using a attack he wants to interrupt if my change would be made.

Ross Biddle.2367:

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

@Ross Biddle

The burden is indeed on me. And thus I have told you why. Because it’s too easy and has very very little counterplay. Then you come in and are like, nope. And so I’m asking why. And now your like the burden of proof is on me. And I’m like, wah? I just did that! I just showed why the change should be made! Why should the change NOT be made? The only reason you gave is because it’s a nerf. And I said to that if you really think it’s too big of a nerf you can just buff some other mesmer trait. So my question remains, why not make CS have more counterplay and make it harder to use?

The question of counterplay was already address in this thread. To counter dazes including MoD specifically, classes have stability, blinds, aegis, channeled blocks, and of course evades. Good players will see the MoD charges on your bar and bait the MoD casts with evades, thieves in particular do this. More’over the following bursts are mitigated with invulns. I do enjoy a good Ranger who waits to use his Lightning Reflects on an MoD stun/interrupt because he not only gets the stun break, the imob cleanse, but also an evade and gap opener. Most players just build tankier though and avoid the danger of a big burst to begin with. Now, before you go wiping all this away with a haphazard “but stability gets stripped”, so what? Stability is still a counter to CC. Stripping is the counter to the counter. That we need counters, and counters to counters means things are working well.

The conclusion here is that CS has plenty of counterplay already, and making it harder to use equates to little more than redesigning it poorly. Oh and another GM that’d be ushered into obscurity with the suggestions you’ve made would be Mental Anguish. It’d no longer compete with Power Block, and sees little enough use as is.

Here is the only good change I’ve seen suggested to CS, and if I remember rightly it was made under the old “bugged” mantras.

Increase the icd to 10 seconds. Make the idc local to each enemy player as the blind on ineptitude is.

“To counter dazes including MoD specifically, classes have stability, blinds, aegis, channeled blocks, and of course evades.”

Problem is there is no tell for mantra of distraction. Which leads us to the following:

“Good players will see the MoD charges on your bar and bait the MoD casts with evades”

I’m a bit confused as to what you are saying here. Are you trying to say you dodge and after you dodge the enemy uses the stun? If so I don’t see how that quite works. The only counterplay right now to it is predicting it. Which only works if your enemy is a complete idiot and does everything pretty much exactly the same. Having fought a ton of thieves I know what a pain predicting can be. Fortunately most thieves blow there steal when at a distance. Vs a mesmer you don’t have this.

Fay.2357:

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

AlphatheWhite.9351:

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

Ross Biddle.2367:

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

Ross Biddle.2367:

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

Simonoly.4352:

I imagine Confounding Suggestions might be on the radar still for Anet. Wouldn’t be surprised if Blinding Dissipation gets a CD per target like Inepitude at some point.

I think it’s more likely that Mesmer will just see buffs to non-torch off-hands and possibly staff to ‘gently nudge’ players away from the s/t + GS PU.

I could see a nerf to CS but why blinding Dissipation?

Because people don’t like it. Same with CS.

I could see why to nerf CS because it significantly lowers the skill required by mesmer which used to be a high skill profession, but why blinding dissipation? I don’t see this as faceroll at all.

Incidentally a powerful argument for Anet to keep it.

Neither it or blinding dissipation make Mesmer “faceroll” however. This isnt ele, war, or guard we’re talking about. Nevertheless! People don’t like it.

I mean it’s still not ele lvl faceroll but it’s super duper easy to burst people. Stun + burst. Rinse and repeat. Which is why I suggested in another thread ( https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Nerf-Confounding-Suggestions-1/first#post5595576 ) to nerf CS and make it slightly more of a skillful trait. Especially seeing as it’s a adept trait. I think its potential in the hands of a idiot is a little too much.

Why does everyone think interrupt is the only way to make things skillful? Is every other class not skillful, because they don’t have any interrupt traits?

No, it’s not the only way, and I know that. But it is one way. I’d take any ideas you have to make CS more skillful. It’s just on interrupt was the most obvious and in my opinion the most likely to happen.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Confounding-Suggestions-Suggestion/page/2#post5303095

Which does help. But it still has very little counterplay. If you make it on interrupt in addition to 10 second internal CD now you can cancel cast your skills if you know your opponents skill lvl to avoid getting stunned. The internal CD only being there to prevent it from still being faceroll vs GS mesmers, GS guardians and basically any class that has long cast time.

Exciton.8942:

It’s only really strong with mantra of distraction. Normally you only have F3 daze which already has a long cd. Not to mention, F3 is only reliable with self-shatter.

However, mantra of distraction is only taken by pure interruption builds at the cost of either portal or decoy which is quite a bit of investment.

Yeah, I really hope sometime they make it so daze doesn’t override your stun cause that’s annoying. And yeah mantra of distraction normally isn’t taken in world tournaments and stuff. However, portal becomes significantly less useful in solo Q. In addition, in WvW portal also isn’t normally taken. So since it’s not used in world tournaments I figured try and make it more balanced around solo Q and WvW. I think most people just see the word “nerf” and “mesmer” in my original post and are freaking out. My point in nerfing CS isn’t because I want to nerf the class ( which is my main ), it’s because I want some counterplay to CS and make it more skillful. I even said in a later post of mine you can buff some other mesmer trait if you really need.

@Ross Biddle

The burden is indeed on me. And thus I have told you why. Because it’s too easy and has very very little counterplay. Then you come in and are like, nope. And so I’m asking why. And now your like the burden of proof is on me. And I’m like, wah? I just did that! I just showed why the change should be made! Why should the change NOT be made? The only reason you gave is because it’s a nerf. And I said to that if you really think it’s too big of a nerf you can just buff some other mesmer trait. So my question remains, why not make CS have more counterplay and make it harder to use?

@mail

Yeah increasing the internal CD would be good. But would it be enough? Making it on interrupt on daze would add more counterplay. Right now you get stunned and then bursted without being able to do anything. By the time you stunbreak the burst has already happened. If you make it on interrupt now you can cancel cast your skills at the right time depending on the opponent your playing to try and avoid getting stunned. And yeah 15 seconds probably was too long. I feel 10 seconds would be much better. And making it per person is also a good idea.

@Wishes

xD

“CS is cancer in combination with distraction mantra because it allows unskilled players to easily land bursts willy nilly”

Pretty much this, tho I wouldn’t use the word caner. Half of your post makes sense and the other half says you might be mocking me. If you are very good! Had me confused!

Mogar.9216:

it’s face roll vs zerker players with low skill level. It’s not really oped at all. I actually started to save my dazes for defense lately rather than using it to land shatter. A decent player knows a shatter is inc once they get mantra stuned and will pop a breaker and dodge so the stun really becomes a tell for your opponents.

You can time the stun with your burst so that they can’t stunbreak it in time 99.999999% of the time unless you have a teleport like blink.

“Pretty much its time for a recap.

1) Your best argument is that you feel its “faceroll”
2) You also think it makes Mesmer to “easy”

So you’re toiling in a world of the subjective right now."

Are you trying to say spamming 3 buttons to get off your burst is NOT super easy? Just want to double check before I burst out laughing. I pressed P R and E fast while typing pressed I’m so pro.

“3) Particulars of your sub arguments, including nerfing ideas, have been outargued.”

I already addressed everything of yours. Mind showing where I went wrong? So far the only half competant thing you said was because it wouldn’t work well with CI and thus would nerf lockdown builds ( it would also nerf power and condition damage builds ). And I said you can buff some other mesmer trait if you really thing it’s that big of a nerf. Totally ignoring the fact chrono is on the way.

“Leaving the thread back at-

4) A justified explination of what’s really wrong with CS, and how it’s OP."

Like I have already said, CS should get changed because the trait has very little counterplay/is too rewarding for the skill required.

“Let’s also point out at this point that CS was changed from a 50% chance to 1s stun on daze to a 100% chance to 1s stun on daze by the devs for a reason.”

Just because a dev made a change doesn’t make the change a good one.

Something that may seem totally random now but may have to be used in a upcoming example if you continue on with this. Would you consider a nerf to burning good or bad? Presuming you could nerf the damage done by however much you wanted. If not, what other significant change would you want made to game balance?

EDIT:

“So to put it plainly – You’re asking for changes to a feature you’ve not been using since it was introduced on a class you main that doesn’t use it anyway, and apparently that’s a nerf to you too, but also you feel you have the experience to speak authoritatively on it in any practical way?”

You know WHY I haven’t been using it? You don’t have to have used CS for days on end to be able to discuss a nerf about it. Surprisingly. And the one guy was talking about me whining just because I lost a duel. If that was really the case why wouldn’t I take CS? And if that was the case, this whole nerf thing because I got beaten by a mesmer with CS would equally nerf me. Also I’m still waiting for you have to come up with another idea as to what’s wrong with mine. All of yours got shot down. Or you could try and revive them again. Either way, your last reply was kinda useless. Oh and yeah this whole burning or balance change you would make would like for you to include that in your next post if you reply.

Windwalker.7421:

That’s a whole lot of tears over a very short duration single target stun with a 5 sec CD. Your suggestions are ludicrous to say the least, might as well remove CS as an option if you’re going to bury it like that.

Sounds like the typical “someone got owned in 1v1 in a GvG/WvW game” whine thread.

In the list of things that need balance adjustments in regards to 1v1 balance, if that should ever be Anet’s goal, I’d say there are at least a dozen other issues of higher priority.

New I would get posts like this. Half of the mesmer community is ridiculous. Remember, this is GW2, not battlefield 4. Surprisingly there isn’t any tears running down my face at all. I fail to see how CS would be so bad it might as well not exist. A 1 second stun on interupt with a daze on a 10 second internal CD is just fine. If your good you can just interupt one of there abilitys and burst. And a 10 second CD prevents this from being too strong. A 1 second stun that doesn’t have an animation is pretty strong. Especially if you compare it to the other adept traits. If nothing else it would make the other adept traits there come a little bit closer to being used ( if you take mantra of distraction CS is still probably better ).

“Sounds like the typical “someone got owned in 1v1 in a GvG/WvW game” whine thread."

No, seeing as I main mesmer I would get equally nerfed and thus it wouldn’t change anything. You would know this if you bothered reading my OP.

‘In the list of things that need balance adjustments in regards to 1v1 balance, if that should ever be Anet’s goal, I’d say there are at least a dozen other issues of higher priority."

No doubt there are definitely other bigger issues. But I still believe this is a issue. And seeing as I’m a main mesmer this is one I happend to notice. So I’m pointing it out and discussing a solution. In fact I have refused to take CS a couple of days after the june 23rd patch hit to now except for a few times.

’This would ruin CS. Let’s look at a practical example of what you’re suggesting. So I use my GS5 knockback, not to set up a burst, but to create some space. I accidently interrupt a skill while I’m doing so, causing a 1s stun from CS to proc. The stun goes unnoticed because the knockback is in itself a stun and the player has to recover from the knockback animation. Now my CS is on a 15s ICD and all synergy is gone from MoD. Also, anytime I interrupt on a pistol 5 (2s stun), CS procs and goes to waste under the other stun. Focus 4’s into the void. Etc."

True, didn’t think about the fact that the stun would override the nockback and stuff. It was a hastily thought out idea on the spot. I was thinking it would help out the nerf to CS.

“Aside from the above, you can also compare CI’s on interrupt imob (in conjunction with the daze etc) is the same as a stun, meaning if CS is on interrupt it becomes meaningless with CI, which are otherwise sound picks in any interrupt/lockdown build.”

Yeah, CS does become less useful with CI. What’s wrong with that?

“Dazes do not stop dodges, and dodges mitigate all. You can lock people out of most (not all) skills, but a daze can’t hold back a dodge. Also, you’re assuming the Mesmer hits with his dazes, which can be mitigated, or avoided, even reflected depending on the skill. As for recharging, sometimes you just don’t get to. I assume you arent a heavy lockdown/interrupt/Mantra playing Mesmer.”

Ment to say stun not daze because I was talking about CS.

“You mean you HAVE to wait for mind wrack to come off CD, there is no “burst” with GS2. It’s a heavily animated skill, and in and of itself doesnt do enough burst damage to be considered a ‘burst’ -_-u.

It depends what you call a “burst”. GS 2 can be a very nice follow up to your previous “burst”. As for the animation, you can easily time it with the stun to get it off.

“Furthermore, if you burn your GS2 willy nilly”

You still get the damage. How is it willy nilly?

" it’s not going to be available to work into your actual BURST."

Not every “burst” has to be the maximum burst. Not to mention you might have it up when your ready to mindwrack next.

“While MoD (not CS) has no animation, GS2 still does, and because the stun is only 1second, in order to land your full burst within that 1s, you still have to time the casting of that animation which is visible. Unless you’re talking ‘from stealth’ in which case CS isn’t really your issue, and why CS + MoD is even necessary in that scenario is beyond me.

An optimal burst has the GS2 hit with the MR. Mirror Blade has a 3/4s cast time. Players aware of the Mesmer know that when they see it, dodging is a good idea. I see it all the time."

You start the animation, then slightly after you start the animation ( before they have time to dodge ), you activate CS. When GS 2 hits the person is still stunned.

I’m a bit confused. Your reason for not making it on interrupt with daze with a 10 second internal CD is because it wouldn’t be as good in a lockdown build ( just like shatter and condition damage ). If you really need to you can buff some other mesmer thing to counteract CS becoming less faceroll ( And thus getting nerfed. I don’t see how you can both make CS less faceroll and not have it nerfed. ).

I wouldn’t say it’s undertuned. As for OP, we have to wait and play it more to determine that. It’s definitely very strong.

AlphatheWhite.9351:

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

Ross Biddle.2367:

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

Ross Biddle.2367:

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

Simonoly.4352:

I imagine Confounding Suggestions might be on the radar still for Anet. Wouldn’t be surprised if Blinding Dissipation gets a CD per target like Inepitude at some point.

I think it’s more likely that Mesmer will just see buffs to non-torch off-hands and possibly staff to ‘gently nudge’ players away from the s/t + GS PU.

I could see a nerf to CS but why blinding Dissipation?

Because people don’t like it. Same with CS.

I could see why to nerf CS because it significantly lowers the skill required by mesmer which used to be a high skill profession, but why blinding dissipation? I don’t see this as faceroll at all.

Incidentally a powerful argument for Anet to keep it.

Neither it or blinding dissipation make Mesmer “faceroll” however. This isnt ele, war, or guard we’re talking about. Nevertheless! People don’t like it.

I mean it’s still not ele lvl faceroll but it’s super duper easy to burst people. Stun + burst. Rinse and repeat. Which is why I suggested in another thread ( https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Nerf-Confounding-Suggestions-1/first#post5595576 ) to nerf CS and make it slightly more of a skillful trait. Especially seeing as it’s a adept trait. I think its potential in the hands of a idiot is a little too much.

Why does everyone think interrupt is the only way to make things skillful? Is every other class not skillful, because they don’t have any interrupt traits?

No, it’s not the only way, and I know that. But it is one way. I’d take any ideas you have to make CS more skillful. It’s just on interrupt was the most obvious and in my opinion the most likely to happen.

TyPin.9860:

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

Make the stun on daze stun on interrupt with daze. In addition add a 15 second internal CD.

I have suggested something like that a while back. I am not sure that a nerf is actually needed, but I’d still like the idea of stunning a foe, when you interrupt it with a daze. However, I don’t think a double nerf is ever the way to go. So either go for an increased icd or a change of the trait’s nature.

However, before we really talk about nerfing something, one must make a compelling case, that something actually is too strong.

While I see that against Necromancers this trait is so very powerful, I see it actually significantly weaker when facing classes with high access to stability and/or invulnerability.

Stability can be ripped because of your shatters and yeah there are a few invulnerabilitys. If I had to pick between on interrupt or icd I would definitely go with on interrupt. My problem with CS is it reduces the skill required. The idea behind the icd was because some classes have some a lot of skills that are easily interruptible such as mesmer GS auto attack, GS 2 on guardian etc. I could see instead of it being 15 second icd it being a 10 second icd easily.

@Sombrero

Yeah, you can blind it. Part of my problem with CS is there is very little counterplay to it because it’s instant. Doesn’t matter if it can be blinded if there’s no way to see it. So CS is both easy to use ( simply press a daze ), and there’s very little counterplay if the mesmer simply times it with a burst. That’s my reason for nerfing it. Make it on interrupt with a daze so that it requires skill instead of spamming, and add a 10-15 second internal CD so that it’s not quite so faceroll vs GS mesmers, GS guardians etc. Heck, you could maybe make it just on interrupt instead of on daze with interrupt. This would help lessen the nerf to CS without making the class any less easy. All it would really change is GS 5 which has an animation. Just something to make CS require skill/have more counterplay. And yeah burning could use a nerf in PvP ( but do NOT nerf it in PvE!! ).

@Boss Biddle

“Yeah, we’ve been through this discussion many times now. If you think making it an on interrupt effect you don’t understand what you’re asking for.”

What’s wrong with making it a on interrupt trait? It makes the trait require more skill and adds counterplay ( cancel casting skills ).

“You keep saying “Adapt trait, adapt trait!” but the days where 20, 20, 30 meant something are gone. You pick entire lines now, and where traits fall in comparison with one another in different lines is meaningless now except for when they compete for picks.”

True.

“CS already has an ICD, it’s 5s. It stops you from chain stunning with dazes, such as using an MoD for a 1s stun, followed by a OH sword 4 within the next 5 seconds. The usual beef is with the synergy CS provides with Mantra of Distraction, meaning a Mesmer can time his two daze into stuns accurately just by using them in conjunction with his two mantra charges. Of course once that’s done he has to wait 20s + recharge + opportunity to ready them again <- Always ignored.”

Yeah, but the burst mesmer can get in that one second daze is a lot. Combine that with a second one and that’s pretty strong. And you can always recharge it when you go into stealth granted that means popping that while in most of your stealth so it still has a cost.

“But why stop there? Who cares if you can stun with MoD twice in six seconds. What is the second stun going to net me exactly when my F1 burst skill is on a 10.5-12s CD (add on potential setup time/circumstance), meaning I cant just GS2 MR MoD to my hearts content?”

You can either wait for mind wrack to come off CD or just burst with GS 2.

“But wait, there’s more! If CS Lockdowns into F1’s/Bursts are so bad on Mes, why aren’t we looking at this “problem” writ large? It isnt as though CS+MoD is the only way to lock someone down for a MR burst. Pistol 5 and Sword 3 should probably get a look at too since you can produce the same result (if you can produce a result at all).”

Because pistol 5 and sword 3 have animations. They have a lot lot lot more counterplay. Right now CS has very little counterplay in addition to the fact its super duper easy to use.

Ross Biddle.2367:

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

Ross Biddle.2367:

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

Simonoly.4352:

I imagine Confounding Suggestions might be on the radar still for Anet. Wouldn’t be surprised if Blinding Dissipation gets a CD per target like Inepitude at some point.

I think it’s more likely that Mesmer will just see buffs to non-torch off-hands and possibly staff to ‘gently nudge’ players away from the s/t + GS PU.

I could see a nerf to CS but why blinding Dissipation?

Because people don’t like it. Same with CS.

I could see why to nerf CS because it significantly lowers the skill required by mesmer which used to be a high skill profession, but why blinding dissipation? I don’t see this as faceroll at all.

Incidentally a powerful argument for Anet to keep it.

Neither it or blinding dissipation make Mesmer “faceroll” however. This isnt ele, war, or guard we’re talking about. Nevertheless! People don’t like it.

I mean it’s still not ele lvl faceroll but it’s super duper easy to burst people. Stun + burst. Rinse and repeat. Which is why I suggested in another thread ( https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Nerf-Confounding-Suggestions-1/first#post5595576 ) to nerf CS and make it slightly more of a skillful trait. Especially seeing as it’s a adept trait. I think its potential in the hands of a idiot is a little too much.

Ross Biddle.2367:

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

Simonoly.4352:

I imagine Confounding Suggestions might be on the radar still for Anet. Wouldn’t be surprised if Blinding Dissipation gets a CD per target like Inepitude at some point.

I think it’s more likely that Mesmer will just see buffs to non-torch off-hands and possibly staff to ‘gently nudge’ players away from the s/t + GS PU.

I could see a nerf to CS but why blinding Dissipation?

Because people don’t like it. Same with CS.

I could see why to nerf CS because it significantly lowers the skill required by mesmer which used to be a high skill profession, but why blinding dissipation? I don’t see this as faceroll at all.

Simonoly.4352:

I imagine Confounding Suggestions might be on the radar still for Anet. Wouldn’t be surprised if Blinding Dissipation gets a CD per target like Inepitude at some point.

I think it’s more likely that Mesmer will just see buffs to non-torch off-hands and possibly staff to ‘gently nudge’ players away from the s/t + GS PU.

I could see a nerf to CS but why blinding Dissipation?

Clownmug.8357:

I don’t want another interrupt trait, they’re too unreliable for people who don’t have a fast connection. I’d rather have it rolled back to 50% chance if it was actually necessary, which I don’t think it is.

’they’re too unreliable for people who don’t have a fast connection."

PvP is based around fast action n whatnot. Just because some people have slower connections than others isn’t a reason to not make a change. If arena net balanced around the idea of not everyone having fast connections the game would be a lot different. PvP is and will continue to be a fast paced game. For those of you with slower connections you can think about trying to upgrade your internet or if you don’t think it’s worth it for you then your going to have a disadvantage. There isn’t really a way around it unfortunately. Not saying I don’t wish everyone could have fast internet it’s just not really possible.

SteepledHat.1345:

Look guys, interrupt builds are faceroll too now.

I fail to see how managing to hit GS 2, f1, and a daze at the same time is challenging. Mind enlightening me? Also where did I say interrupt builds are faceroll? All I said was ONE trait that you can take even in a shatter build with mantra of distraction was faceroll. I knew guys like you would show up. If you even suggest the tiniest nerf to mesmer people are like your trying to destroy mesmer or just saying ridiculous stuff in general. I tried preventing this with my OP but……..

Now before all the hate comes at me, read my post! First, I main mesmer in both PvE and PvP. Second, CS is the most facerole trait I have seen in a while. It makes the mesmer in PvP go from a high skill class to spam 3 buttons screw that up wait for the quick CDs to come back up and repeat and repeat etc. So here is my suggestion. Make the stun on daze stun on interrupt with daze. In addition add a 15 second internal CD. And plz, remember, this is a adept trait. And before the mesmers would go into the trashcan etc replies remember chrono is on the way in addition to the above mentioned fact that it’s a adept trait. *hides behind trashcan watching the advancing mob*

EDIT: Quadox.7834 actually had a good idea of completely changing the skill which is also a great idea.

EDIT 2: Guess I needed a bigger trashcan dangit. Looks behind. Oh man, that’s a big trashcan! Hey, what’s that written on it? Fractals, Dungeons, and Raids. *continues to hide

Levetty.1279:

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

MrSilver.5269:

Talking about WvW and PvP

Because you mention WvW I’m a bit scared. They will never be able to balance classes around in a 1v1 for roaming solo if that’s what your talking about. And again, you didn’t mention WHY you thought they were OP. You need to say why you think they are OP. Until then we can’t really have any meaningful discussion in this thread.

The first rule of Guild Wars 2 players is ‘Does Mesmer still exist? Yes? Its OP nerf it’

Yeah I think he/she may be a troll. We have to wait and see. If he can’t give us a reason I think it’s safe to say he’s a troll.

MrSilver.5269:

Talking about WvW and PvP

Because you mention WvW I’m a bit scared. They will never be able to balance classes fully around in a 1v1 for roaming solo if that’s what your talking about. And again, you didn’t mention WHY you thought they were OP. You need to say why you think they are OP. Until then we can’t really have any meaningful discussion in this thread.

In what game mode and why do you think they are OP in that game mode. Gotta state why you believe they are OP not just they are OP.

Betting time! Think the thread will get locked before it reaches the second page? xD

Really it comes done to which one you have more fun with which can only be really known by playing both of them at lvl 80. That being said, if your wanting to know which one will be more useful at lvl 80, the mesmer will be. And IDK if your getting HoT, but if you are I would further say mesmer because chronomancer is super good.

Astralporing.1957:

Arctarius.2649:

Someone posted to remove enrage timers from raids.. please do not listen to him or anyone else agreeing with him. If you want to continue producing good pve content it is required to have enrage. If there is no enrage mechanic everyone will just build the heaviest unkillable specs in the game and slowly whittle the bosses down with zero effort and allot of time.

Like it happens in dungeons already
…oh wait, it doesn’t. Surprise surprise.

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

Your in luck! Neither nomad or highest DPS is the meta, nor will it ever be the meta!

You might look closer at the current calculations as to what will be the best setup.

The current setup for the first raid boss? OK. Blinds for the circles on the ground that tick damage/healing to survive them. Protection too. And just take a look at dungeons. Reflects are taken yet they are normerly not a DPS increase. Same goes for condition removal. And aegis in fractals. etc etc etc. You see?

@Undoer

" I’m interested in seeing fewer, or preferably zero, classes left out, just because they don’t bring either Vulnerability, Might Stacking, or High Damage."

Your in luck again! Classes aren’t left out for just those reasons. Revenant can provide boon duration + protection+fury. Warrior has banners. Ranger has frost spirit, spotter, and sun spirit.

“I want CHALLENGING group content to be just that, but Challenging shouldn’t mean “Exclusive to only the most viable classes with the most viable build”.”

Well removing the enrage timer would remove the CHALLENGING from challenging group content. And that’s why it’s a bad idea. And there will always be a meta. Buffing other builds such as nomads won’t somehow prevent there being a most optimal comp.

“Why take any Condi other than an Engi, for example, when they’re so much better at it than anything else, and we’ve got this Enrage Timer breathing down our neck?”

Condition damage ranger so you don’t have to take that ridiculous sword auto attack and you can provide buffs.

“Why take any other mightstack than a Phalanx Strength warrior? A D/D Ele can might stack, a Thief can using their Shortbow on someone elses fields (And there’s enough fields about), but they won’t do as much damage, so they’re not welcome.”

So your suggestion would be?? Buff d/d ele so Phalanx Strength warrior isn’t taken? Then in two weeks you will be like buff Phalanx Strength warrior!

Yes! I absolutely agree. Finally someone that can think outside of the box instead of this mainstream crap! This game breaking bug has been in the game for 3 years without the devs noticing ( after all it is pretty hard to notice ). Seeing as ranger is already OP as heck in all 3 game modes, I think this bug should get fixed ASAP. Rangers have been on the top of the food chain for far too long.

/s

Great idea, but I would also like to have 2k gems with that and 500 gold in addition to being able to pick any 3 non legendary skins in the game to add to my wardrobe. :P

EDIT: for the standard version obvs, buying the $100 one should get you in addition to the extra gems 1000 gold instead of 500 and 10 non legendary skins in the game.

Yashuoa.9527:

So I can conclude that 1h sword is still in both weapon swaps in HoT?

Yes. If you want to see the extended version of it check this out: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/PvE-The-New-Chronomancer-Dungeon-Rotation/first#post5517768

Goes on for a couple of pages with a lot of other discussion.

rhapsody.3615:

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

In PvE, chronomancer, herald, and reaper will be meta. Berserker will be good for condition damage builds ( condition damage warrior isn’t meta ) and maybe for direct damage builds ( IDK for direct damage builds ). Druid is good for healing if raids need a healer/make it a lot easier to have a healer. (s)crapper MIGHT be used in raids if a ton of CCs are needed. Tempest is mediocre especially compared to what other traitlines/weapons ele have. Daredevil can be useful is useful for difficult solos because of the extra endurance but won’t really be used in group PvE play. And last and most certainly least, dragonhunter is useful for being useless.

I pretty much agree with this, except I think Druid could have a place in WvW/PvP meta. I haven’t tried Tempest myself, but I have seen that it can heal for tons, and a few people I know that play d/d ele in WvW are excited for it. I did try to create a hybrid power/sinister Berserker (with a focus on burning), and was impressed with the numbers I saw (in PvE).

As for being “replaced,” I can only see Chronomancer definitely leaving Mesmer in the dust. Mesmer is a utility class- the insta-recharge F5 is really good, especially in fights where a double-feedback is super helpful. Heck, just a double time warp is awesome, and both are even better! Alacrity and the wells are also pretty great.

Otherwise, I don’t see why our current builds wouldn’t still be viable in our current content post-HoT. We have to see what’s in store for us in raids and fractals, as well as the rest of the jungle maps. Surely a meta for raids will develop separately from other PvE- and our current meta of DO ALL THE DAMAGE ONLY might not work 100% of the time there and probably will suffer without the new elite specs.

I was talking strictly about the PvE meta not PvP since I am more familiar with PvE. Reaper is way better than the current necro because of more DPS/chills ( tho reaper still isn’t useful for 5 man content ). Herald because of the AoE boon duration/might/fury/swiftness/protection/150 ferocity. I don’t think a condition damage tempest is gonna be useful for PvE. And yeah the raid meta will definitely be separate from dungeons/fractals.

In PvE, chronomancer, herald, and reaper will be meta. Berserker will be good for condition damage builds ( condition damage warrior isn’t meta ) and maybe for direct damage builds ( IDK for direct damage builds ). Druid is good for healing if raids need a healer/make it a lot easier to have a healer. (s)crapper MIGHT be used in raids if a ton of CCs are needed. Tempest is mediocre especially compared to what other traitlines/weapons ele have. Daredevil can be useful for difficult solos because of the extra endurance but won’t really be used in group PvE play. And last and most certainly least, dragonhunter is useful for being useless.

SlyDevil.3952:

Activate virtue of justice while fighting lupi.

Both

/15 charrs of why

Nineaxis.1826:

Fay.2357:

Illusions drops the cooldown of continuum split, and continuum split is the primary skill that gates everything else that you do. Saying that ‘alacrity already provides cooldown reduction’ is silly. Obviously alacrity provides cooldown reduction, but you want as much as possible.

So the question is what is worth more:

• Illusions for Continuum Split cooldown being 78.5s (down from 90s), and 20% reduced recharge for Phantasm skills, on top of what cooldown reduction alacrity provides
• Domination for 12.5% more damage across the board, 15% more damage from phantasms, and 15/30% more damage from shatters

Some thoughts:

• 11s off Continuum Split would only be majorly relevant if using it on cooldown. Unless I’m mistaken, the main purpose of using it would be to get two Time Warps (+some additional skills) off. After the second, it goes on a 180s cooldown. How many PvE encounters last long enough for Time Warp to come back up, even with alacrity? How many encounters would make use of multiple Continuum Splits?
• How much does the phantasm skill cooldown reduction contribute to your skill rotation? Over the beta weekend, running Dom/Duel/Chrono, the weapon swap cooldown was the time gate I was hitting on summoning additional phantasms, not the recharge on skills. Is the extra cooldown reduction, on top of alacrity, for phantasm summoning skills necessary?

Yeah part of it might be whether you are doing raids or dungeons or fractals. In raids the reduced cd on f5 would be pretty useful.

In addition to what Fay said the idea is with chronophantasma you want to shatter when you have 2-3 phantasms that haven’t already been shattered.

If you mean for dungeons/fractals/raids then probably something of the sort like this: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vhAQRAsc8dncfCtqh9fCmfCUrhlVjqcDGhAo+Yj2pFd6OjrD-TxRBABXt/o8oQ9Biq+DZKxe4EAAwTAwMlgBAOAGuwFOg1Xf91Xf9Ge4hHe4hHDQeA-e

Domination might be better than dueling we have to wait and see. You can take shield if you need more personal survive ability or more stuns or more quickness. You can take pistol if your phantasms will stay alive longer that way. You can go with Well of Precognition if your team needs more survivability. etc etc

IDK which is mathematically better. I just chose dueling. Domination could be better IDK. And I chose assassin figuring you wouldn’t want to get a 1 set for raids and 1 set for fractals/dungeons. And difference between assassins and zerker is non existent except for reflects really.

While I haven’t done the raid, from watching videos and stuff it seems a little easy ( tho granted this is the first boss ). Here are a few suggestions:

1. The Vale Guardian needs to have some AoE attacks.

Right now you have to dodge the teleport AoEs and that’s pretty much the only thing you have to dodge. I feel like he needs some quick 360 attacks or AoEs to make use of the dodge mechanic more.

2. The breakbar when he uses his AoE attack needs to have a stronger breakbar or have its CD reduced.

Right now it’s too easy to interrupt it. And you will have all your CCs back up by the time he uses it again especially with alacrity.

3. Enrage timer is too lenient.

The world’s first had over a minute left on the timer with no offense a slightly sub optimal comp.

4. The red mini boss that spawns at 66% and 33% HP needs to have a different mechanic.

Condition damage builds are going to be taken even without this mechanic. All it does is make the condition damage guys go to the red boss.

5. The blue bosses invulnerability with the boon up is pointless. Mesmer auto attack strips it. Either make the mesmer auto attack no longer strip it or change the mechanic.

6. The green mini boss needs to be vulnerable to condition damage.

Zerker builds are still good this mechanic changes nothing just like the red boss’s immunity to direct damage.

Well, wasn’t there what 4 condition damage builds and one tank or something? Zerker meta dead :P

Chronomancer is definitely top tier for raids. With alacrity + quickness + CCs chronomancer is boss in raids. Something of the sort like this for the first boss: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vhAQRAsc8encfClph9fCmfCUrhlVjqcDGhAo+Yj2pFd6OjrD-TxRBABXt/o8oQ9Diq+DZKxe4kAAwTAwMlgBAOAGuwFuwBrv+6rv+6N8wDP8wDPGg8A-e

sicsempertyrannis.3510:

Jerus.4350:

As i said in the other thread, IMO if you want to make a “nerf Engi” post, pull off the full condi rotation in a video.

But it’s too hard for most people, that means it’s balanced!

Basically no one can pull off the rotation, not to mention with alacrity and quickness coming. Let’s go nerf it so that even those few people who do manage to do a near perfect rotation don’t get rewarded for the extra skill! And the people who didn’t manage to do a perfect rotation now do even less DPS than before!

Nah, other professions can do stuff to. It’s just there will always be a most optimal way to do things.

Undoer.6381:

I’m fine with enrage timers, I’m happy to fight bosses with them, and I’ll enjoy them. And here’s the but, do we want another 2 Ele, 1 Thief, 1 Guardian, 1 PS Warrior situation? There will always be a meta, and that’s fine, but surely we don’t want a restrictive meta? Surely we’d rather see a situation like LF 1 Might Stack, 1 Reflect, 1 Stealth, 2 high DPS? There we can take a Herald, PS Warrior, or D/D Elementalist for the might stack, and a Mesmer or Guardian for Reflects, and a Mesmer, Engineer, or Thief for Stealth, and finally, for High Damage, we have quite a bit of choice, since a lot of classes can provide good damage, if they’re not compared to Elementalists.

I’m talking in 5 man terms, and this isn’t going to help for translating the analogy to raiding, but I feel it’s still valid. Do we want to feel pressured into only going with the highest damage composition possible to finish the raid? I don’t, and I can’t imagine many folk enjoy not being able to player Rangers, Necromancers, and Mesmers (Ignore the rapidly shifting meta, it’ll just be different classes that are irrelevant instead).

Enrage timers encourage high damage compositions, and that’s a bad thing. We want a situation where neither full Nomad groups can succeed nor is it necessarily to stack the utmost highest damage possible.

Now, we haven’t touched on the raid with the Mastery’s in play, so we might be going in only partially prepared, and ArenaNet said we’d want ‘Something Else’ instead of Slaying Potions, and I don’t think we had that either, so there’s something else we’re missing, and these might make the Enrage Timer feel less restrictive, and I feel this is all worth considering.

As I played the raid, without Mastery’s (Gliding DPS needs a huge buff, it’s terrible), and without ‘Something Else’, in a group built with the words “Who wants to raid?” with 1 Healer, 1 Tank, and later 1 Tank/Healer, and the rest Damage, we were going to be scraping the timer.

But let’s look at the Vale Guardian as not a boss in a raid, but as the first boss: Does the Vale Guardian ensure that players are good enough for raiding? If you can’t beat that timer, is the Vale Guardian saying you don’t deserve to try the rest of the fights? Alternatively, is this meant to be warming us up, into raiding?

TL:DR: There’s too many ways to look at this to say either “Ditch the Enrage Timer” or “Keep the Enrage Timer”. I also think it’s worth ArenaNet considering both camps of thought.

“We want a situation where neither full Nomad groups can succeed nor is it necessarily to stack the utmost highest damage possible. "

Your in luck! Neither nomad or highest DPS is the meta, nor will it ever be the meta! Support ( both offensive and defense, AKA might, vuln, reflects, condi removal, stealth etc etc etc ), control ( CCs, definitely more important in these raids ) and finally damage. It’s just support doesn’t come in the form of gear. And if anet ditched the enrage timer raids would no longer be challenging at all. Just go defensive enough to not have to worry about dying and just grind the boss down. And all for what? So that you can wear different armor? I’m all up for build diversity, but I am NOT up for making CHALLENGING group content facerole.

Rising Dusk.2408:

I do agree that not all rage timers should simply be clocks; ANet can and should implement more sophisticated means and effects to achieve the same thing in other encounters. The core idea that raids are time-limited, however, must stay.

Mogar.9216:

still not working 100%. before patch the charging of heal mantra would give you swiftness as well as firing off any charge to get healed. Now the charging of mantra does NOT apply swiftness any more.

This. The initial cast of the mantra heal doesn’t give swiftness but using the mantra charges gives swiftness. But at least HoT is on the way anyway.

Yeah definitely agreed don’t remove enrage timers. That being said I don’t think condi engi needs a nerf. You have to remember to get out that top DPS you need to have perfect rotations and the enemy not moving outside of your fields. Realistically there DPS is just fine.

Firelysm.4967:

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

Urgent balance. Despite the fact they can’t be taken in PvP, aren’t a problem whatsoever in WvW, and are actually the best PvE condition damage armor. So nerf them so you totally screw over PvE condition damage builds? Seems to make sense. After all, who wants variety.

No, nerf them so they can play as every other class, sacrifice something to gain others, you cant have 2400 Power, and 1600 condition power, pardon me?

Yeah well you give up some stat. Rabid has more toughness but no power. 10/10 Almost believed it was serious. Quit honestly was pretty good, you knew to go the mesmer forums to do something of the sort like this which is better than most other class subforums. Probably would have done better in the general discussion subforum tho. You could have had hundreds of people convinced!! But you know what they say, learn from your mistakes.

Urgent balance. Despite the fact they can’t be taken in PvP, aren’t a problem whatsoever in WvW, and are actually the best PvE condition damage armor. So nerf them so you totally screw over PvE condition damage builds? Seems to make sense. After all, who wants variety.

frifox.5283:

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

With 3 clones out that would grant 8 seconds of distortion >.<

Awesome!

Yeah, my math skills are pretty awesome.

Sword#1 AA chain locks the ranger in place. Should be changed to this chain in this order so the leap can be cast at the beginning as a gap closer.:
-Pounce. Leap 600. Only activate if there is a target selected otherwise it just do in place.
-Slash : range 130
-Kick: no a leap anymore. Range 130, can be cancelled.

Approved. IDK why it hasn’t gotten fixed yet.