Guild Wars 2

Nemesis.8593:

As expected… half the people who discredited me every chance they got don’t dare say a single word (they are the ones who realized just what happened), the other half still try to sugar coat it (the ones who are truly delusional).

Spoj… people saw how you said “Nemesis DS build is a gimmicky build, nothing more” amongst like 40-50 other remarks of the kind for over 2 years, all based on math that is false.

You claimed 13.4K DPS… higher then me… yet you were doing 6K…

You lied about me, you faked advertised… and you discredited my work nonstop for the last 2 years. Then you went and taught every necromancer to use dagger 1 in every situation, then they got crushed… felt like they do no damage, and so eventually an unknown number of people stopped playing the class entirely.

Now… you appear here again as if nothing happened.

Bawb said “no one was kicking necromancers”.

Some other people said “well no one believed they were actually doing that DPS”… when you can clearly see Nike… teaching his followers how condition engineer does 20K DPS and it’s much higher then a warrior after 20 sec.

It’s mind-blowing and hilarious at the same time, how you got caught up in your own lies, there is video proof of that like 2 links away… and you guys still try to sugar coat it and act as if nothing happened.

It takes a special kind of < >, to be able to act that way… after everything… i’ll give you guys that much.

“Some other people said “well no one believed they were actually doing that DPS”… when you can clearly see Nike… teaching his followers how condition engineer does 20K DPS and it’s much higher then a warrior after 20 sec. "

Nike said in the video linked below within the first minute of the video the following: Assuming perfect or near perfect rotations this is the highest sustained DPS build in the game in PvE.

He even says only with perfect or near perfect rotations! And you act like he says in all situations this build will be the highest DPS build in the game. This is a outright LIE.

“Spoj… people saw how you said “Nemesis DS build is a gimmicky build, nothing more” amongst like 40-50 other remarks of the kind for over 2 years, all based on math that is false.

You claimed 13.4K DPS… higher then me… yet you were doing 6K… "

I’ve said this over and over again. “Math in a void” is used to show DPS comparisons between builds, no one was saying in a real fight you would be doing this all the time.

“You lied about me, you faked advertised… and you discredited my work nonstop for the last 2 years. Then you went and taught every necromancer to use dagger 1 in every situation, then they got crushed… felt like they do no damage, and so eventually an unknown number of people stopped playing the class entirely. "

Where did he say that dagger 1 in every situation was better? Give me a link to where he says that, until then, your again, lying.

“Bawb said “no one was kicking necromancers”. "

Of course some idiots are kicking necros. That doesn’t mean that Nike and Spoj and everyone who runs the meta is doing that. You see a few idiots doing it and then act as if everyone running the meta is like that. Kinda similar to something called racism, eh?

“It’s mind-blowing and hilarious at the same time, how you got caught up in your own lies, there is video proof of that like 2 links away… and you guys still try to sugar coat it and act as if nothing happened. "

Mind giving the proof that’s two links away then?

EDIT: forgot the link, here it is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UeNcqdSJI8

EDIT 2:

“Did you just call all the people i showed in my “fractal LFG” which said “zerker ele or kick, NO NECRO” morons ?

You just called half the community morons… for believing what you guys were teaching them.

mind = blown"

A: Glad you somehow have statistics saying half the community do that, mind linking me to where you got those statistics?
B: Necro is less efficient, but overall it’s not going to slow down a casual tour that much. That’s pretty much what we have been saying, and you somehow take that as never ever take a necro in a tour?

EDIT 3:

“The advertised world records were done using multiple Icebows, which do up to 80K DPS for 3.7 sec, boosting the DPS of a player from about 8-10K into 28K… as you have clearly seen in the videos provided.”

Linecasting is banned for world records.

“You’ve seen Brazil’s DPS match that of world record holders, and unless his entire party was dragging him down… which they weren’t since i calculated their average / per player… as you’ve seen in the videos provided… a NON-ICEBOW record is about 30-35 sec.
I have already done a 30-35 sec Bloomhunger kill with a pug group… as you have seen in the videos provided.”

Average DPS per player. Lol. I hope you realize not every player accounts for 20% of the damage done right? At this point your making at best educated guesses at the times of a bloomhunger world record without Icebows.

EDIT 4 ( lol ):

“It is not “average of 20K DPS” as advertised, that was a straight up lie… unless you take out all the ramp-up time and just say for example… “sinister engineer does 20K DPS… in the 34, 35, and 36 second of the fight…” which is straight up pure insanity, and serves no real purpose other then to fool the community for personal gain.
Btw… are you saying Nike said “what could be… the highest DPSer in the game” based on “peak DPS” ? You guys keep blowing my mind with how much you really understand about the game.”

The 20K DPS is over a 30 second fight with perfect rotations. I don’t know how much damage it does “on average”, but who was saying it would do 20K DPS on average? Again, a link is needed or no one said that.

“Btw… are you saying Nike said “what could be… the highest DPSer in the game” based on “peak DPS” ?”

It’s not bases on peak DPS. Its a 30 second rotation. That’s hardly its peak DPS lol.

Obtena.7952:

spoj.9672:

Obtena.7952:

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

So basically some ignorant people think its optimal in situations its not and that’s somehow the people who make the builds problem? It’s like people who complain that a company doesn’t warn you that the Coffey they sell is hot. If you check out the build in the link it very clearly says the following: [DnT] PvE DPS Sinister Engineer For Dungeons and Fractals 8/3/15

So it does even come with a dummy label!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UeNcqdSJI8

See my problem is that I’ve NEVER seen anyone who promotes meta builds say “Oh hey, It’s not that great for this particular situation”. Either they promote it or they sit back and watch the ignorance happen because they think it’s to their benefit for meta to be promoted everywhere, even if they do know it’s not optimal in every PVE situation.

I got my own ideas why theorycrafters don’t step up to defend their meta against ignorance, but I think in the end, it just works against them. When I see notable people promoting meta builds intended for dungeons for use in openworld content, I KNOW this isn’t limited to a few ignorant people.

Clearly havent been paying attention then. Because i mention it all the time. Its in my guide. Also others have been saying it for years. Adapt to the situation means adapt to the situation. And that implies that some things arent as effective in some areas.

Battling ignorance is an impossible task. It takes way too much time. And often its willfull ignorance so the players concerned will never actually allow themselves to be receptive to your advice. Hence its an impossible task and waste of time. The players that listen often dont need the advice in the first place. And if they do they certainly dont need the extra detail that “battling ignorance” would involve.

I pay attention; I know you do but just because you mention it doesn’t mean others do as well. l wasn’t referring specifically to you, though I know from watching Nem’s vids, you guys got history. If you look past that stuff, I think his vids have some things everyone should think about. Especially about the value that doing these calculations has for the community and on it.

I’m aware battling ignorance is an impossible task, yet all these great calculations are released like it wasn’t going to happen in the first place. I said it before, it’s worth repeating .. if it wasn’t for people promoting ‘the best’ builds with math, knowing full well clueless people would not understand the limitations of these builds, then the only thing left would be ignorant people arguing among themselves what the best build based on some anecdotal information. It’s Pandora’s Box. Thankfully, Anet is abandoning AND trashing dungeons and made the encounters in HoT in a way where meta is meaningless.

Think Spoj summed it up. Even people who put labels on Coffey cups saying its hot you still get guy who burn themselves by not realizing. And there will still be a meta for HoT encounters.

Obtena.7952:

Bhawb.7408:

The establishment has always said that theoretical DPS doesn’t match up to in game. The point of theoretical DPS is simply to provide a meaningful benchmark, and because the combat in this game has thus far been easy enough that the gap between theoretical and experimental, and the differences in those differences between builds, are low because there is little to throw you off ideal rotations, theoretical is the most easily used and compared.

The problem isn’t that the model doesn’t match the actual; The problem is that the model is too simple and doesn’t cover more scenarios, leading to promotion of the ‘optimized’ meta in situations where it’s not. A great example is when people promote the meta for openworld map completion on a Guardian. The current meta is not optimal for that content; it never has been as a matter of fact.

Why is this a problem? Because the calcs are being misused by people that don’t understand their restrictions/limitations as they just think it’s globally applicable. META is not the greatest build for all PVE situations; it never has been. Yet it’s promoted that way so unknowing people adopt meta because that’s the meta-pusher agenda.

Even though theorycrafters caveat their work with “might not match real game experience”, that doesn’t stop ignorant people from using those calculations (the sole reason to MAKE those calcs mind you) to justify poor behaviour with building teams, QQ on the forums about how bad a class is or give people misinformation about gameplay. The worst part is that the theorycrafters KNOW this is happening and don’t take care to ensure they make the limiting conditions of their calculations known. It’s pretty irresponsible IMO.

So basically some ignorant people think its optimal in situations its not and that’s somehow the people who make the builds problem? It’s like people who complain that a company doesn’t warn you that the Coffey they sell is hot. If you check out the build in the link it very clearly says the following: [DnT] PvE DPS Sinister Engineer For Dungeons and Fractals 8/3/15

So it does even come with a dummy label!

Nemesis.8593:

Bhawb.7408:

Obtena.7952:

Nemesis is challenging the establishment to explain how their calculations match up with actual ingame experience. It’s not an unreasonable ask, especially since so many people rely on what they are being told to determine how they act ingame. What you are doing is focused on minutia and attempting to diminish the value of his work. Frankly, if people weren’t so scared of what he had to say, they would address it instead of dismissing it outright.

The establishment has always said that theoretical DPS doesn’t match up to in game. The point of theoretical DPS is simply to provide a meaningful benchmark, and because the combat in this game has thus far been easy enough that the gap between theoretical and experimental, and the differences in those differences between builds, are low because there is little to throw you off ideal rotations, theoretical is the most easily used and compared.

Further, Nemesis himself does the exact same thing he accuses “the establishment” (as though we have some PvE illuminati) of doing, which is cherrypicking numbers, situations, and results to match his statements, instead of the other way around. The problem is the establishment has generally proven themselves right, or quickly adapted when wrong, because they have the personal investment of speed run records. If Nemesis wanted to prove all that empirical data wrong, he could do so by beating their records and maintaining his own, but he can’t.

Simply put, if Nemesis wanted to prove himself right, he could do so. He could set his own records (and then hold on to them for more than a few hours until someone had the spare time to reduce it by minutes), he could do so constructively, without the attitude of someone whose head is so far up their own posterior they’ve come to believe their own crap is the only thing there is. But he doesn’t, because inflating his own ego gets him more views and followers, and like any other cult they don’t realize how ridiculous they are until they step outside for once and detox the kool aid.

I’m surprise you can still muster the courage to speak after you just recently said “i haven’t taken Nemesis serious since he claimed he does more DPS then a warrior”… when i baited all you elitists into insulting me so i have footage to show.

You still think you do more DPS with your warrior then i do with my necromancer, you don’t really understand how the game works… and now you’re even going back on what you guys claimed all this time.

You saw what Sesshi said a few times right ?… “It has been proved that necromancer is inferior”, “it has been proved that Nemesis builds are even more inferior”.

Well… everything you guys proved… was wrong.

The establishment never said their math doesn’t match reality, quite the opposite… they made a website on which they advertised a single possible composition making the entire community insta-kick everything else. No matter how much you guys try to sugar coat it now, you can’t take back what you guys have said over a period of two years… the majority knows you guys have discredited me, the majority knows you guys said 20K DPS… Why do you even try to deny it ?

I have also been wrongfully discredited over a period of two years… and you were one of the people who discredited me, as if you even have the game knowledge to do so. Every single build i posted in the last 2 years got flamed in the comment section by you elitists… now you’re playing the victims ? “Oh no… Nemesis is attacking us…”

You still have the nerve to continue talking… even after i provided 100% undeniable proof, that everything… you guys said… is false. slow clap
Or… are you saying that Narc is also casual in his world record Bloomberg kill ? Brazil is casual… Narc is casual ?… Painbow is casual ?… Who’s next ?…

You guys going to turn on each other now ?

“Cherry picked data”.
It was a world record… show me better footage… no really… i insist…

You can of course still prove me wrong, by recording your damage and showing us it matches the advertised damage, by all means… do that…

You still got the nerve to talk after in the deleted necro thread you were pretty much forced to emit you trash talked a necro for his build? Lol. You do the same thing you hate on the “elitists” for.

I’v said this on your youtube, you replied to it twice, not once did you mention anything to show I’m wrong. How comes you talk to other people about stuff and totally refuse to acknowledge this, huh? You totally didn’t respond and have failed to so I think its time to get a response, unless of course you can’t actually give a good response….

First off, “math in the void” is used to show DPS comparisons between classes. I don’t think anyone was saying in a actual situation you would do that much damage, it was there to do a comparison. Because if class A does X damage and class B does X+10 damage, you can expect class A won’t magically improve in a real fight. The exception is engineer because he has a particularly hard rotation. This pretty much makes your whole part 1,2, and 3 wrong.

Second is, warrior is taken for its offensive buffs, not its DPS. That’s why in dungeons warrior is taken and necro is not. Absolutely has nothing to do with personal DPS. With HoT I don’t know how this will change, have to wait and see.

TheRandomGuy.7246:

Sooo what happens to nemesis threads? They keep disappearing.

Haha yeah couldn’t find it. Sad actually. He finally emitted he did the exact same thing he hates on the ‘elitists" for doing. Your my hero quickfoot Contana or whatever your name was for getting him to do that! Sadly, I can’t link the thread whenever he posts a new video tho : (

TheRandomGuy.7246:

I like that I need to waste time with champ trains in open world or spend hours in cof to level up my FRACTAL mastery in order to get some questionable reward boost. Who made this?

What are you talking about this is just what you wanted. You want them to update dungeons and fractals and they did for both of them and now you complain?!?!?!? Never satisfied! Enjoy your fractured 2.0 and stop complaining.

: P

Yeah they should make it so you can use wells underwater.

mrstealth.6701:

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

phys.7689:

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

TheFantasticGman.9451:

Fractals are pretty much dead to me now. At least until Fractal Mastery is 100% completed. Even then probably still dead because I’m not at all ok with needing to spend coin to get my final rewards from Fractals.

What do you need to spend coin on to get your rewards? Do you mean tons of experience for the fractal mastery?

they give you treasure chests when you beat a fractal, but in order to open them you have to buy a key that costs 20 silver from the npc usually you get back 10.
the daily.
you can get 6 keys from dailies, but you get like 12 chests

basically, you spend gold to open chests hoping to make it back by random luck

You don’t have to open them up. You can just sell the boxes on the TP and vendor the keys.

Sadly, that seems like it might be the best option. But that also means throwing out your chance to get fractal skins or ascended ring drops.

Wait, that’s how you get the fractal skins and ascended rings? How about the ascended armor/weapons?

phys.7689:

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

TheFantasticGman.9451:

Fractals are pretty much dead to me now. At least until Fractal Mastery is 100% completed. Even then probably still dead because I’m not at all ok with needing to spend coin to get my final rewards from Fractals.

What do you need to spend coin on to get your rewards? Do you mean tons of experience for the fractal mastery?

they give you treasure chests when you beat a fractal, but in order to open them you have to buy a key that costs 20 silver from the npc usually you get back 10.
the daily.
you can get 6 keys from dailies, but you get like 12 chests

basically, you spend gold to open chests hoping to make it back by random luck

You don’t have to open them up. You can just sell the boxes on the TP and vendor the keys.

TheFantasticGman.9451:

Fractals are pretty much dead to me now. At least until Fractal Mastery is 100% completed. Even then probably still dead because I’m not at all ok with needing to spend coin to get my final rewards from Fractals.

What do you need to spend coin on to get your rewards? Do you mean tons of experience for the fractal mastery?

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

Purple Miku.7032:

And on 71+ you lose all boons when you dodge… is this supposed to be fun? Dealing abysmal amounts of damage never has been for me, dunno bout you guys.

Please tell me this is really bad joke. PLEASE.

Fractals are a mess and dungeon rewards have been nerfed. I was originally excited for raids but now….. I feel like I’m hoping against all odds. Just take a look at anets long history…

But but….we updated fractals just like you wanted : )

IAMANDLOVE.3095:

1) too difficult, i have friend who have spend over 30 hours trying to kill the first boss and all they got to show for it is whip after whips!

It’s supposed to be challenging.

Dragonhunter : P

On a more serious side finally mesmer meta! Chrono hype!

AlphatheWhite.9351:

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

But even if one group stands on one side of the boss while group two stands on the other side of the boss if the boss moves a little bit that totally wastes TW n wells. Especially for the first boss where your wanting to be moving the boss around. But then again some people will be going to the lightning on the first boss so IDK. Seems like it could work sometimes but it’s only sometimes for a 1 chrono comp.

That’s not a unique problem to this group, though. Even the identical-group solution has to deal with that. It’s chronomancer itself that’s reliant on the positioning for Wells/TW.

With the identical group solution you can place the AoEs on top of the boss instead of at the very edge of one side of the boss meaning some tiny movement from the boss wouldn’t screw up your buffs.

AlphatheWhite.9351:

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

Why would you take a warrior for the first groups buffer and then take a chrono for the second groups. It would be either 2 chronos or 2 PS warriors right?

Chrono doesn’t need to be in the group for their buffs. Because the alacrity and quickness are area-based, they can be in group 2 and still be buffing group 1.
The warrior, though, needs to be in group 1 to ensure that their banner/might/other buffs go to their group.

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

EDIT: I said wouldn’t it and it blurted it out as wouldn’kitten ? Did they brake the forums? Time to try something else and see if they blurt it out. Lol and now it says it just fine in the edit I’m so confused >.<

Happens to me all the time. Contractions that end with a “t”, followed by an “it?” look to their rather trigger-happy algorithm like saying “ti” “ts”. Childish giggling follows.

But even if one group stands on one side of the boss while group two stands on the other side of the boss if the boss moves a little bit that totally wastes TW n wells. Especially for the first boss where your wanting to be moving the boss around. But then again some people will be going to the lightning on the first boss so IDK. Seems like it could work sometimes but it’s only sometimes for a 1 chrono comp.

AlphatheWhite.9351:

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

I see it as basically two identical groups because buffs prefer your sub squad. Even with ground targeted buffs you can’t simply have your highest DPS stand on one side of the boss because if the boss moves a little bit all those buffs go to waist especially for the first boss which your supposed to move around. Guess we will just have to wait and see.

In an identical-group mechanic, for example:
Group 1 = 2 ele/engi, 1 ps warr, 1 chrono, 1 thief
Group 2 = 2 ele/engi, 1 ps warr, 1 chrono, 1 druid

That’s 4 top dps with full buffs, 2 tier2 dps with full buffs, 1 tier3 dps/utility with full buffs, 2 crappy dps/support with full buffs, 1 full support/terrible dps with full buffs

In a dps-group mechanic:
Group 1 = 4 ele/engi, 1 ps warr
Group 2 = 1 chrono, 1 druid, 1 thief, 2 ele/engi

That’s 4 top dps with full buffs, 2 top dps with secondary buffs, 1 tier2 dps with full buffs, 1 tier2 with secondary buffs, 1 tier3 with secondary buffs, 1 crappy dps/support with secondary buffs, 1 full support/terrible dps with secondary buffs.

The loss:

• alacrity/quickness and banners for 2 crappy dps, 1 terrible dps, 1 tier2 dps and 1 tier3 dps.
• some utility from having a second portal/MI

The gain:

• 1 crappy dps is now a top dps (without alacrity/quickness or banners).
• 1 tier2 dps is now a top dps.
• some utility from having more slots to swap engis with eles and vice versa.

The real question is, does the dps loss to lower-dps classes amount to more damage than the dps gain from swapping some of those lower-dps classes to higher-dps classes?
I’m just not confident that the answer is yes.

Why would you take a warrior for the first groups buffer and then take a chrono for the second groups. It would be either 2 chronos or 2 PS warriors right?

EDIT: I said wouldn’t it and it blurted it out as wouldn’kitten ? Did they brake the forums? Time to try something else and see if they blurt it out. Lol and now it says it just fine in the edit I’m so confused >.<

Pretty good. Here’s a few changes I would make: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vhAQRAsc8encfCtqh9fCGoBUrhlejyMAOtMqeUb1XF91itZD-TxRBABXt/o8oQ9Diq+DZKxy7kAAwTAwMlgBAOAGuwFuwBrv+6rv+6N8wDP8wDPGg8A-e

This is presuming you pug dungeons and don’t have a interest in raids. If you want to try raids swap assassins to berserker and swap the infusions to power. In addition change sigil of night to sigil of accuracy.

If you don’t pug dungeons or frequently get in with meta people you can use this build: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vhAQRAsc8dncfCtqh9fCmfCUrhlVjqcDGhAo+Yb2pFd6OjrD-ThRBABXt/o8DP9D5dSAA4JAQp6PmpEMAwBwv9tv9N48zP/8zPvf/93f/93xAkH-e

Again making the above changes such as taking accuracy sigils etc if you plan on doing raids. For this build it might be better to take domination over dueling have to wait and see the math.

AlphatheWhite.9351:

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

AlphatheWhite.9351:

frifox.5283:

apharma.3741:

I think frifox even did the math showing that replacing a mesmers phantasms with a frost spirit increased party DPS more than 3 phantasms.

To clarify, for frost spirit to be more effective than 3 fully buffed swordsmans your party DPS has to be ~70k dps (quite realistic with 2x ele during organized guild runs). On average a good zerk party dps will push ~40k and frost sprit would increase that by ~2.8k, which is 1.6 swordsmans. Basically, the higher your party dps the more valuable frost spirit is, to the point where in the high end it does overtake 3x swordsmans.

With HoT mesmer MAY become top DPS by feeding off other party members dps – through aclarity & quickness. Only time and in-game testing will tell, which definitely will come.

Which, incidentally, creates both the start and the end of mesmer value: while a chronomancer may be highest dps, the dependence on party dps also caps the number of chronos that is viable. Taking 2 chronomancers decreases the value of each of them.
In raids it’s possible (but unlikely) that 2 chronos will make sense (1 for each party), but you’ll always be discussing whether you should have 2 or more engi/ele dps.

Alacrity/quickness is ensuring a slot for chronomancer, but it’s only one slot.

Why wouldn’t you take 2 chronos in raids?

The premise is the classical role-sorting of parties. A chrono in the dps party (or at least, focused on supporting the dps party) makes sense, but the second chrono’s value falls off relatively speaking.
The point is that while it’s possible there will be sufficiently more than 5 pure dps in a raid to justify a second chrono, and alacrity is still useful for the utility classes, it’s less likely to be the case that you’d not get more out of adding another dps.

So while one view is that a raid is just two optimal groups (which would include 2 chronos), the other is that role specialization suggests otherwise. Raids in other MMOs suggest the latter is likely.

For example, suppose sinister engi is the uncontested meta dps (I suspect a mix of ele/engi will be optimal in the end).
What else do we need? 1 druid and at least 1 chrono are expected (druid b/c of Anet, chrono because of math). Fortunately, the druid and chrono don’t need to be in the same group as the dps to be effective.
Next, PS Warr is obvious. He’ll go in the same group as the dps, to maximize the target limit of his banners. To make the best use out of that dps boost, fill the entire rest of his group with dps. So 4engi+1warr for group 1. If there is another class that is needed to boost the dps group, you swap out an engi for that.
Optimizing group 1 follows the usual dps/support math, but without worrying about utility, which can be provided by group 2. The only reason to stick a utility class in group 1 is if that utility class also provides valuable untargetable support.

So now we’re left optimizing group 2. So far that’s a druid and a chrono.
Candidates include Herald (supporting the chrono+decent dps+tank), thief (stealth+decent dps), guardian(reflects+decent dps+tank), moar dps (ele/engi), moar tank (rev/warr/guard), moar cc (rev/???).

In any case, adding a second chrono leaves only 2 slots for strong dps in group 2, leaving you with a druid (low dps), chrono (low dps and doesn’t need the alacrity anyway), second chrono (low dps), and 2 dps or utility to try to boost his value off of.
Is it possible that will still be worthwhile? Yeah.
Is it likely that will still be worthwhile? It doesn’t seem so.

I see it as basically two identical groups because buffs prefer your sub squad. Even with ground targeted buffs you can’t simply have your highest DPS stand on one side of the boss because if the boss moves a little bit all those buffs go to waist especially for the first boss which your supposed to move around. Guess we will just have to wait and see.

AlphatheWhite.9351:

frifox.5283:

apharma.3741:

I think frifox even did the math showing that replacing a mesmers phantasms with a frost spirit increased party DPS more than 3 phantasms.

To clarify, for frost spirit to be more effective than 3 fully buffed swordsmans your party DPS has to be ~70k dps (quite realistic with 2x ele during organized guild runs). On average a good zerk party dps will push ~40k and frost sprit would increase that by ~2.8k, which is 1.6 swordsmans. Basically, the higher your party dps the more valuable frost spirit is, to the point where in the high end it does overtake 3x swordsmans.

With HoT mesmer MAY become top DPS by feeding off other party members dps – through aclarity & quickness. Only time and in-game testing will tell, which definitely will come.

Which, incidentally, creates both the start and the end of mesmer value: while a chronomancer may be highest dps, the dependence on party dps also caps the number of chronos that is viable. Taking 2 chronomancers decreases the value of each of them.
In raids it’s possible (but unlikely) that 2 chronos will make sense (1 for each party), but you’ll always be discussing whether you should have 2 or more engi/ele dps.

Alacrity/quickness is ensuring a slot for chronomancer, but it’s only one slot.

Why wouldn’t you take 2 chronos in raids?

I wouldn’t really care if it was just some skin or something. I wouldn’t care if it was just the old skill point system. Even now it’s just a nuisance. But still, why should you have to go do open world grind to unlock part of your class or WvW? My suggestion would be to add more ways to unlock skill points like they are doing with WvW. So there should be a way to unlock skill points by doing dungeons or fractals. That way people who want to do WvW can get there elite specs, people who do PvP already have there’s, and people who want them who mainly do PvE can either do open world or dungeons/fractals depending on which they like.

Eldbrand Charging.8902:

Godservant.8736:

I was sitting in a PvP match with some friends, and we were talking about raids. Remembering a few forum posts on Raid tools, we were wondering if anyone had talked about using the PvP statistics displayed at the end of a match (damage dealt, healing to allies, boons applied, etc, etc.), but putting them in a Raid. For instance, every time you left a raid or click “Retry from Checkpoint”, a box would appear with those statistics like it does at the end of a PvP match. This would give raiders some idea of how they were contributing to the raid/ what changes they might need to make.

Anyways, just a thought we had. Figured I would post it here.

keep your elitist crap in PvP, took us almost 4 years to get Anet to separate PvP and PvE in GW1, no going back.

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

If the mail says it’s not from the GW2 staff why would it be from GW2 staff?

Fluffball.8307:

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

No offense but anyone who tries to defend the sword auto attack should really try out doing lvl 50 fractals with it and then post a video of it. Then we can discuss the video and point out why it shouldn’t be the way it is.

No offense but you should really try WvW roaming with sword and show how amazing it is. It has strengths, dude, that’s why these threads are always stupid.

Also, I’m not a huge PvE player, but maybe someone like yelloweyedemon can show you how he uses sword in PvE. I can use it in all the dungeons, I stopped doing fractals out of boredom. I used it in level 80 something fractal back in the day but its a different system.

It has some strengths and some major weaknesses that significantly reduces the usefulness of a ranger in anything hard in PvE. Buff sword to counteract the nerf to WvW rangers for all I care, but don’t keep the weapon’s horrible design.

Bacon.1835:

Nineaxis.1826:

Take the current mesmer meta build. Replace your least favorite trait line with Chronomancer 3/3/3.

New HoT meta.

Wonder if the armor stats will stay assassin’s

Depends. If your running a night time dungeon run night and force if not run force and accuracy and thus beserkers.

No offense but anyone who tries to defend the sword auto attack should really try out doing lvl 50 fractals with it and then post a video of it. Then we can discuss the video and point out why it shouldn’t be the way it is.

AlphatheWhite.9351:

Miku Lawrence.6329:

Nothing holding mesmer from being top tier now.

You mean, besides the fact that even with full phantasm uptime, mesmers don’t do top tier dps?

3 phantasm mesmer is still OK damage. Anyhow chrono will be top tier so we don’t really have to worry.

Oxidia.8103:

Missing dagger and focus. Didn’t had any skins drop for about 2 months at least. The tonic drop is a myth.

Fixed for ya : )

Yelloweyedemon.2860:

It took me like 1-2 months to learn every single encounter on the game and figured how to play with sword. There’s currently NO content where sword is not viable. You can melee all the bosses/encounters in game and perform as good as everyone else.

Yet here we are, 3 years after launch with people still refusing/are unable to learn how to deal with something that was here since day #1 and makes the class unique.

I have the feeling you haven’t done lvl 50 fractals much?

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

gin.7158:

Sigmoid answered your question.

Air sigil is just personal preference since it’s good in general situation.
Sigil of frailty will be useless if your group can maintain 25 vuln (with rev or engi, I guess it’s very easy). Sigil of night doesn’t always work. Sigil of strength will be useless if you capped out at 25 might. Anet may release better sigils later on though.

Funny because I heard Air sigil is pretty crappy now.
Then again, I’m someone who keeps energy sigils on his offhands because it’s basically a requirement for me. lol
I’d just go the multiple weapon-route like I do on Warrior, but I can see why you went with air.

Yeah think accuracy>air now after the nerf.

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

Skoigoth.9238:

Hey! I´m one of “those guys over there” =P

Heh, well that works too.

Build is looking good, pretty much what I used for solo play last BWE, but I would never use SR without Vital Persistence. The small cd reduction on Lich Form from Spectral Mastery just doesn´t cut it and the extra LF-gen can´t compete with the decreased degeneration from Vital Persistence as well imo.
Swapping out SR for BM in group content definitely seems like the right thing to do though.

Spectral Mastery isn’t actually just a cd reduction for Lich, but also a duration increase from 15s to 22 1/2s. I do kind of lean towards swapping it out once Reaper hits, though.

I haven´t seen any comprehensive calculations on Reaper damage so far, so pls correct me if I´m wrong, but I believe Dagger AA still beats RS AA against 2 or less targets. Also, burning maybe will get tuned down a bit with HoT (just speculation), so Dhuumfire might not be worth it in power builds anymore.

Gravedigger is a bit clunky to use sometimes because of the root, that´s correct, but if you miss it you can still fall back to RS or Dagger for ~8 or 9 sec and be fine I think.

Ah, so it is a root. That’s helpful to know, thanks.

Sigmoid.7082:

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

@Gin: Any particular reason you went with Valkyrie-gear and Air-sigils? Seems pretty pointless. The build itself is rather close to mine, so that’s good I guess.

Decimate defences is 72% crit chance in his build. Spotter/Banner/Fury to reach 100% in or out of shroud. Valk for the extra HP and wurm runes. Overall works out slightly higher than str runes for damage last i napkined.

Valid points there, but that assumes you always have 25 stacks vuln on everything where it matters (or very close to it) and only run in parties where you have those buffs. Since I don’t have a guild and mostly pug, it’s not really an option for me.

@FrenchFry: Yeah I know, the “xD” gave it away well enough, but kitten , that’s just cruel.

I was hoping the xD made sure no one took it too seriously.

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

Try this build: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QwiTyE5vqw

Great video by a top necromancer who states complicated stuff very simply. Probably the best necro out there. His dedication to the necro class and the gw2 community in general is amazing. He single handily took down Nike and all the elistists and in the process saved GW2.

xD

Wow, I feel badly insulted.

@Sigmoid: Alright, that does make sense. Thanks for the info.

@Gin: Any particular reason you went with Valkyrie-gear and Air-sigils? Seems pretty pointless. The build itself is rather close to mine, so that’s good I guess.

Sorry, I was joking hahaha.

Try this build: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QwiTyE5vqw

Great video by a top necromancer who states complicated stuff very simply. Probably the best necro out there. His dedication to the necro class and the gw2 community in general is amazing. He single handily took down Nike and all of DnT and in the process saved GW2.

xD

EDIT: Build seems pretty good. Glad necro is getting something sorta nice

Garimeth.8725:

@French Fry, I think you may be over estimating the amount of condi damage that druids can do. I think they are a solid second choice, but i think engineers are the first for sure. That said I do agree it looks like the base comp is something like:

1 chrono
1 PS War
1 herald
1 healer (druid)
6 dps (and this would be a split of sinister/zerker builds)

I also remember reading about people saying that you need a tank for moving the boss around. If that ends up being the case I’m going to try and do that with a mace or hammer guardian – and failing that probably a rev or scrapper.

@Skoigoth, lol, conversely my guild is all returning players that have come back in the last 2 months, many of whom either have no ascended at all or only have the things they can get from laurels.

I would only take a sinister engi for a ranger/druid if you need blinds. So for the first fight I would do that. We have to wait and see the other fights, but you need to have a really good rotation to get out that top DPS. So my question is, in reality, how much damage is a sinister engi really doing? And you will always want at least two rangers for buffs.

As for a tank, all you need is for someone to equip a few pieces of knights gear.

rogerwilko.6895:

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

2 Chrono
2 PS warriors
2 Heralds
4 Condition damage druids

yeah this is MUCH better than what dungeons ask for now:
2 Eles
1 PS War
1 Guard
1 Thief

/s

Even with a 10 man buffing thing the new thing would be: 1 chronomancer, 1 PS warrior, 1 herald, 4 condition damage druids, and then 3 of the new highest DPS classes. If that’s what you were trying to say.

MSFone.3026:

I read somewhere that GS auto counts for 3 hits towards the 40, is that not so?

GS auto would only remove 1 stack. But if you can get out 3 illusions then that helps out. If your wanting to learn to solo the boss I’d suggest watching this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NbXHtPijMfc

Sigmoid.7082:

“Furthermore you might be losing some DPS by doing so ( would like to know about this if anyone that has done math ).”

You don’t in the build in question, sinister.

So the optimal thing is really to spam 1 in death/reaper shroud? Interesting. Still, both the chronomancer and the guardian wouldn’t have any might.

Sigmoid.7082:

“.That’s presuming you just spam number 1 in death shroud which means not applying any bleeds or anything of the sort like that. "

Reaper. Dhuumfire. Poison potential. There is a lot of stuff you can do while building might via RS#1. Not to mention the might lcan last , with runes, 22s or 29s with a herald so yeah your point of how do reapers gain so much might has been answered.

Didn’t see they changed Dhuumfire till now. Is the optimal way to go is to just spam reaper one now? If not, your gonna be losing some DPS by doing that. In addition, both guardian and mesmer are going to be missing might. So yeah some people can get some might, but not everyone. Furthermore you might be losing some DPS by doing so ( would like to know about this if anyone that has done math ).

Sigmoid.7082:

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

Sigmoid.7082:

d how do reapers get perma 25 might or something?

the spite trait line alone insures that reaper spec necros will always have 25might. Also sinister reaper does quite a bit of single target damage.

That’s only when below 50% HP. And while sinister reaper no doubt does do some nice damage, other classes do more.

Go wiki the trait reapers might and tell me that’s “only below 50%” lol. Without might runes the single trait will grant 22stacks of might. With night runes it will maintain 32 thus Max stacks and then some. So even without anything being below 50% getting Max might and maintaining it are things that reapers will pretty much always do as long as they take the spite line.

So you saying only below 50% is wrong..

That’s presuming you just spam number 1 in death/reaper shroud which means not applying any bleeds or anything of the sort like that.

@Zaroua

It really depends. The OP didn’t mention what lvl so for the majority of lvls that doesn’t really matter. And I mean, take thief for example, squishy as heck, can easily get one shot, but still taken for fractals. We have to wait to see lvl 100 to see how hard it is and why to determine a comp for that. But for lower lvl difficulties like now 3 necros wouldn’t be useful except for bosses where there is multiple enemies around within range of each other.

Sigmoid.7082:

d how do reapers get perma 25 might or something?

the spite trait line alone insures that reaper spec necros will always have 25might. Also sinister reaper does quite a bit of single target damage.

That’s only when below 50% HP. And while sinister reaper no doubt does do some nice damage, other classes do more.

Zaroua.2714:

“As for condition damage warrior, direct damage warrior brings both PS and EA. In addition pretty sure that pure damage warrior > condition damage warrior. And you still get condition damage from the one banner for a second one plus PS for more might. "

Don’t really need PS with 2 Revenants and 2 Mesmers.

“Your fractal comp would be lacking a lot of might.”

Condi reapers get ridiculous amounts of might. Very selfish. And the Guardian brings a lot of vuln with quickness + hammer AA spam.

Revenants can stack some might but would need strength runes and eve then I don’t think it’s 25 might. And to take the signet to spread boons you now have to give up something on the mesmer bar. And how do reapers get perma 25 might or something? And still, this 3 necro comp would be pretty bad vs single targets of which there are a decent amount in fractals.

Zaroua.2714:

“Condi necro is actually pretty bad compared to other condi classes.”

Other condi classes need to be in melee to do their DPS optimally, which is something you DON’T want to happen in 50+ fractals, again assuming the damage scaling is somewhat similar to what we had when 50+ fractals were initially a thing. You also need a lot of AoE in fractals, something the other condi professions are lacking at.

“Epidemic can help some but that’s presuming you have more than one enemy which is only true for a few bosses.”

Aquatic, Mossman, Ascalon Captain (the squire packs a hell of a punch at higher levels), Golem cats, Archdiviner, Aetherblade, and ESPECIALLY Lava Shaman all have adds where Epidemic does a good job. But that’s only counting bosses, which I can assure you is a very bad misconception for 50+ fractals. The trash is ridiculously deadly and it’ll only get worse when you have to deal non trivial instabilities that people are used to dealing with at 40, 49 and 50.

“Also condi ele is pretty bad too”

My napkin math showed they can output ~20k dps while bringing a ton of utility.

“unless they buffed beserker by a substantial amount pure DPS warrior is better not to mention they can stack might and bring EA”

Berserker’s burst longbow skill does completely obnoxious amounts of damage.

“And banners only effect 5 people so you will probably want 2 warriors.”

You only need your banners to affect the DD people since banners aren’t really worth it for the condi team.

True, you have to be in melee, we will have to see how difficult it really is to melee at 90+. But at least for lower lvls you don’t have to worry about that.

Underwater combat is something entirely different, I was talking for land. I don’t know what the optimal comp would be underwater. You would only be able to use epidemic on the second half of the cat golum fight. For archdiviner first encounter you won’t be able to use epidemic and for the second fight the adds will die before you get any substantial amount of conditions on them. There is a good amount of bosses where there is only one target. And other builds can cleave just fine too. I would really like to know how you are getting 20k DPS on condi ele. I think we should start a discussion about this on the DnT forums so we can get some solid math on this.

As for condition damage warrior, direct damage warrior brings both PS and EA. In addition pretty sure that pure damage warrior > condition damage warrior. And you still get condition damage from the one banner for a second one plus PS for more might. Could maybe see only one warrior, would have to see some math on it, didn’t think about banners being better for DD guys.

EDIT: Your fractal comp would be lacking a lot of might.

EIDT 2: you do have a point that epidemic would be really good vs bosses where there is multiple foes, but that’s not always the case in fractals

Garimeth.8725:

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

2 Chronomancers ( alacrity + quickness + condition removal + reflects )
2 PS warriors ( might + banners + EA )
2 Heralds ( boon duration + might + additional projectile destruction if needed + additional condition removal if needed + perma protection if needed + stability + 150 ferocity )
4 Condition damage druids ( need condition damage + Glyph of Empowerment + Frost Spirit + Sun Spirit + Spotter )

EDIT: Does smokecloud from the smokescale blind? If not this comp will lack some blinds. Also this is all based off of what we have seen. As for alternative classes we will just have to wait and see how far away from optimal you can go.

EDIT 2: For the first fight I would actually take some condition damage engis for blinds

So you don’t think a tank is necessary?

You could have someone equip a few pieces of toughness gear for agro if you really need.

Kitty.1502:

Rising Dusk.2408:

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

wait druid? What’s good with druid?

gin.7158:

Interesting, I don’t play ranger. Why do people want it? spotter and frost spirit, CC bot?
Or preparing druid for hard encounter? is druid better than the base ranger?

Kitty.1502:

Ranger’s support is inferior to other support, though they can be good dps, but they are not meta material.

In response to all of these, let’s revisit what changes they made to Ranger and Druid that make it in-kitten-credible.

• Glyph of Empowerment: +10% teamwide damage for 6 seconds every 16 seconds.
• Spotter: +150 precision to the whole party.
• Frost Spirit: +10% damage 70% of the time when attacking, no ICD.
• Sun Spirit: If you have anyone with condition damage, namely a Sinister Engineer, this becomes huge. It’s still a big DPS bonus even without a condition class, though.
• Grace of the Land: Everyone you hit with an Astral Form skill gains 3% a damage and condition damage increase for 8 seconds. This buff stacks 5 times. Note that Rejuvenating Tides pulses in an AOE 5 times, so it’s really easy to stack this and bail Astral Form to save DPS.

This is comparable to what a Warrior brings to a party, and overlaps exceptionally well. I would be very surprised if a Druid doesn’t get brought considering all of these buffs and everything else a Ranger already brings.

At the cost of a lot of dps. Going into Astral Form means you aren’t dpsing, meaning that is a significant dps loss. Going into druid in general is a loss in dps. While all this will most likely be great for raid, for fractals and other group content not so much when there are options that don’t require such a loss in dps and have equal or better support.

I like druid, and think its pretty good with a very minor issues, but it won’t be meta for 5 man group content.

True, you will lose some personal DPS for Glyph of whats ya ma call it. But does the DPS gained better? Guess we will just have to wait. I could see it either way.

2 Chronomancers ( alacrity + quickness + condition removal + reflects )
2 PS warriors ( might + banners + EA )
2 Heralds ( boon duration + might + additional projectile destruction if needed + additional condition removal if needed + perma protection if needed + stability + 150 ferocity )
4 Condition damage druids ( need condition damage + Glyph of Empowerment + Frost Spirit + Sun Spirit + Spotter )

EDIT: Does smokecloud from the smokescale blind? If not this comp will lack some blinds. Also this is all based off of what we have seen. As for alternative classes we will just have to wait and see how far away from optimal you can go.

EDIT 2: For the first fight I would actually take some condition damage engis for blinds

Zaroua.2714:

For fractals:

Reflects, Aegis, Blind, Weakness and Condi damage will be what groups will need. Reflects to combat all the missiles, Aegis to not get 1 shot by bosses when you make a mistake, Blind and Weakness to survive trash who kill have significantly more damage and more crit chance.

With that being said, I’d say the optimal group comp would become
Guardian
Mesmer
Condi Necro x3

Wut? Ya you heard me. Condi Necros do most of their DPS at range, only needing to be in melee for weapon swaps to proc Sigil of Geomancy. With Alacrity, they’ll easily have an overkill of Blind/Weakness to trivialize trash. They’ll have insane AoE damage output that other professions won’t be able to compete with: remember that a Condi Necro’s damage goes up the more condis are applied to a target, so you can expect Epidemic to hit for over 100k a pop, and with Alacrity that’s 3 Epidemics every 9 seconds or so. Necros will also have AoE crowd control through their new elite shout (or through good ‘ol golem charge), Chill for kiting, projectile destruction through Corrosive Poison Cloud and they’ll be able to maintain almost 25 might stacks without needing to be babysat by a Might factory profession. And to top it all off, they’ll be able to do it in Dire gear if the going gets too tough.

And before you start spewing nonsensical rhetoric, keep in mind that Epidemic is, bar none, the highest DPS skill in the game under specific conditions: you need multiple condition users to stack up conditions on a single target and you need multiple mobs to live long enough for all that damage to matter. All of which will most certainly happen in 50+ fractals if the scaling is similar to the old 50+ fractals we had when the fractals initially launched.

For raids, something like this.

Mesmer 2x
Revenant 2x
Elementalist 2x
Condi Necro
Condi Ranger
Condi Warrior
Condi Elementalist

The Mesmers are there for Alacrity, Quickness and boon sharing. Revenants are boon factories and great direct damage DPS. Elementalists act as great DPS and double dip as healers with Wash the Pain Away and water fields. The Necro is there to tank in Dire gear and for Epidemic on fights that call for it. Ranger double dips as a healer with the Druid specialization and Apothecary gear. The Warrior spams that completely ridiculous Longbow burst skill with the Berserker specialization and provides banners. The Condi Elementalist also double tips as a healer

Condi necro is actually pretty bad compared to other condi classes. Epidemic can help some but that’s presuming you have more than one enemy which is only true for a few bosses. Unless they recently buffed condi necro massively and I missed it or something condi necro will not be taken. Also condi ele is pretty bad too and unless they buffed beserker by a substantial amount pure DPS warrior is better not to mention they can stack might and bring EA. And banners only effect 5 people so you will probably want 2 warriors.

Rising Dusk.2408:

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

wait druid? What’s good with druid?

gin.7158:

Interesting, I don’t play ranger. Why do people want it? spotter and frost spirit, CC bot?
Or preparing druid for hard encounter? is druid better than the base ranger?

Kitty.1502:

Ranger’s support is inferior to other support, though they can be good dps, but they are not meta material.

In response to all of these, let’s revisit what changes they made to Ranger and Druid that make it in-kitten-credible.

• Glyph of Empowerment: +10% teamwide damage for 6 seconds every 16 seconds.
• Spotter: +150 precision to the whole party.
• Frost Spirit: +10% damage 70% of the time when attacking, no ICD.
• Sun Spirit: If you have anyone with condition damage, namely a Sinister Engineer, this becomes huge. It’s still a big DPS bonus even without a condition class, though.
• Grace of the Land: Everyone you hit with an Astral Form skill gains 3% a damage and condition damage increase for 8 seconds. This buff stacks 5 times. Note that Rejuvenating Tides pulses in an AOE 5 times, so it’s really easy to stack this and bail Astral Form to save DPS.

This is comparable to what a Warrior brings to a party, and overlaps exceptionally well. I would be very surprised if a Druid doesn’t get brought considering all of these buffs and everything else a Ranger already brings.

OK haven’t been keeping up with druid figured ranger>druid so take ranger but the glyph and the grace of land seems really strong. Glad druid is actually useful for something besides healing.

White Hunter.3416:

Paul Ella.2037:

Xbon.9086:

Rising Dusk.2408:

Non-commander raiding squads are available for all players to set up raids for free. You’ll have access to all necessary functionality without buying a tag.

Not all functions though.

This is correct. The only functionality you will have is the ability to form a squad and move yourself between subgroups. All other functionality (Ready Check, Broadcast, making private squads, etc. etc) will be restricted to Commanders with tags.

“Pay 300g to PUG Raids”? Is it true? Or we will be able to use lfg to find people without tag?

Raids aren’t even supposed to be pugable basically so I don’t think you will have to worry about this.

I don’t see why they wouldn’t. However you only remove one stack per skill so phantasms like the warden won’t be totally amazing to remove the stacks.