Guild Wars 2

Sviel.7493:

Anet made great progress on this by adding the floating +score indicators. Now, they need to update the second tab of the UI to indicate that not all objectives are valued the same. Perhaps if they showed the amount of PPT swing that flipping an objective gave, it would help. A T3 keep is a 28 swing while a T0 is only 16. That’s probably just as important as showing the points on capture. To their credit, they do show how much PPT each structure gives, but only for allied structures.

I’d be interested in a statistics tab with “last matchup” “current matchup” “last skirmish” datas telling how many points are earned through :

• Holding objectives (auto-tick every 5 mn)
• Flipping objectives
• Killing enemies
• Miscelleanous (dollis and probably other things ?)

Not sure what it’d show, but… Well, it’d just be interesting to know.

Azoqu.8917:

1. Condi builds pull more damage with less effort. Crangers pull insane damage even if they screw up their rotation a ton. This is also shown when you look at the new condi ele, you pull amazing damage for a “spam stuff off cool down” build, meanwhile when you play power you get “pull of these 7356 steps to be 10% lower than that Cranger who spammed buttons.”

I mostly agree with that one. I’d add that once conditions are up, it’s possible to kite and doge a bit, so it provides more flexibility than a flawless rotation.

Azoqu.8917:

1. Power builds require you to be above 90% health in order to pull the most out of them while condi doesn’t have threshold on it.

So you’re running scholar runes… This is what amazes me the most. Power build = glass canon zerk+scholar in everyone’s mind. You know that running a, say, knight+cavalier would still be a power build ? With only more sustain.
I know, in GW2 non-raid PvE, sustain means nothing because of the insane smashes any mob can deal, that demands fights to be terminated the quickiest. But in other game modes, sustain matters.
Unless of course you’re asking to be able to clear any enemy with your 3 sec opening burst rotation. In which case, please refrain yourself from saying anything is OP.

Azoqu.8917:

1. The problem with Zerker meta before was never the fact that it was condi is trash, it was because people wanted to play their healers, buffers, tanks, but the game was designed to be played with active defenses making toughness/vitality/healing power all trash. Yes condi was bad because of how it was built, but Anet shouldn’t have swung the pendulum so hard. The idea is to not punish something for how good it was in the past, but to make it so both are usable.

I’m honestly not sure power builds are “punished”. Maybe berserker ? I haven’t tried it, but even if I play it, I admit that stunlock burst rotation was OP.
Likewise, I don’t think power builds aren’t usable at all now. Maybe conditions are doing better in some cases, but power builds don’t seem to be a total crap now. Of course, it depends the game mode and the encounters…

Sazukikrah.5036:

Full burst classes can do a full burst and the bunker will eat it and heal to full.

Reworded : I want to kill an enemy with a single full burst, ie, in roughly 4 seconds. BTW : condis are OP.

Sazukikrah.5036:

It requires no skill half the time, and all the people that wanna talk about it requires skill cause people can clear them is full of crap.

It won’t help your cause to say “anywho disagrees talks crap.”

Sazukikrah.5036:

spammable revenant banish enchantment.

Considering the energy expense… uh… no.

Sazukikrah.5036:

Condition builds should be Skill based and traits that give protection / passive fumble(weakness) shouldn’t exist in condition traitlines.

Fortunately, no power build relies on passive boons application.

Sazukikrah.5036:

I believe Dire / Trailblazers should have a rework, it gives too much Vit/toughness

Not more than solider or wanderer.

Sazukikrah.5036:

condition builds only need to work on 1 stat while power builds need power fero and crit chance and often times vitality cause some classes have the lowest base health.

Actually, expertise helps a lot, so it’s 2 stats.

Then, condi guardians, condi eles (supposing that exists) and condi mesmers to a lesser extent are of course well known for having the highest base health, contrary of condi berserker, for example.

zealex.9410:

Dire should be the stat you go for when you play against power specs ( giving you toughness and instead of vit maybe prec or power).

The first one is called rabid… But I’m not sure I understand. You’re basically saying : if you go against a power spec, take dire, and instead of dire, take rabid ?

zealex.9410:

Classes ahould be so tanky while also being capable of dealing so much dmg.

cough cough cough Power berserker cough cough cough

It’s been a long time since that topic didn’t pop again… sigh

You know what ? I tried dire on my mesmer (pre patch), and here’s why I enjoyed it a lot “for itself”

• I was able to whistand the opening stunlock+burst that most power builds are using with the purpose of downing me at first strike.
• My slow sleepy mind was able to use my players skills and eventually win the fight. Or not. Depends.

Beyond the sole “dire/TB” issue, here’s why I enjoy condis more :

• With power builds, you often need to get close and hit to do damage. With condi builds, you only need to hit, and then you can kite/dodge/whatever, damage still ticks. It takes longer, but I think it’s more reliable. (as long as it’s not cleanes of course)
• With power builds, stats like protection, regeneration, aegis drastically lowers my efficiency. With condi builds, only regeneration and resistance have such an effect overtime. It’s far better, considering the first thing you see after a red name is 8 boons popping for 3 minutes. (overdoing it a bit).
• With power builds, it seems like you need to know and execute a perfect rotation OR stunlock your opponent, in order not to be endangered.

Specific encounters ? Last one ! A power berserker, while I was running a condi (rabid) necro. Downed his HP to 15%. He popped resistance. My corrupt was on CD. The healing signet did the rest, and we disengaged both. Who would have won ? I dunno. But obviously, he wasn’t that helpless against a condi build.

So please, instead of asking for those stats to be nerfed :

• Consider the possibility that a fight may last longer and still be enjoyable, even in a power spec. Reworded : don’t wish for fights to end with the opening blow. Zerk and marauder are a thing amongst others.
• Are “passive buffs” a condi builds only ? Nope. And the marauder+durability runes combo is the most shining evidence of it.

Before the revamp, conditions were really uneffective as a damage source, some niches put aside. Everyone was still about “zerk zerk zerk”.

Now, conditions come to be really effective, but I’m not sure power builds aren’t viable anymore. In PvE, it doesn’t change much to have one or the other, and, given the few times I browsed metabattle or qtfy, I’m still seeing zerk+scholar runes as the most frequent suggestion.

In WvW, that’s another deal, for more reasons that’d be too long to disclose here, and maybe off topic a bit.

I’ve got two thoughts on this :

• Play what suits you. In most cases, you’ll be as affective with condis than with power. You may only take a little more time or skill to perform. You don’t need to enforce the new trendy build to have fun.
• The one and only true “meta” in GW2 is “just deal damage as fast as possible”. Any kind of sustain build is useless in vast parts of the game. Condi or power doesn’t really matter in the end of the day.

I mostly share the OP’s feeling, even if I didn’t play UO (didn’t have internet at this time), I knew that time.

I’d see two big trends explaining that : the first one is the whole society now looks for overperforming individuals : sports, work, family life etc. Everything has to be maxed and perfect and measured… No mistake allowed, but it impairs the pleasure too.
The second one is more about the overall video game industry : once upon a time, games were advertised on the content : story, gameplay, new possibilities, look at these beautifully painted landscapes etc. Time went, and advertisement shifted more towards graphics and game performance. Don’t get me wrong : there’re still game that advertise on content and that are great (let’s just quote Witcher or Elder’s Scrolls series) and things seem to be less focused on performance.

Now, specifically about GW2 : if you think “content”, each living world episode is a matter of 5 hours play if you just do the story part. It’s more if you fully explore the new map in the beginning of course. 5 hours with a 2 months interval. Let’s just say content is really light. So it all comes down to farm and grind, and gear.
Then, add the “sadistic bias” devs have when it comes to challenging content : the more demanding a part of the game is, the more it’ll come down to training, maxing gear, learning rotations etc.

Of course, there can be fun playing with figures, and I enjoy theocrafting. Yet, at the same time, I feel like GW2 neglects its world and lore from the developement priorities.

SubHonour Guard.6498:

The Ideal Win/Loss Ratio

I believe that a group winning 100% of fights is going to create a negative outcome for all sides, firstly for the losing side because they will not enjoy the game. I’ve seen many guilds quit because they were on the losing side for too long, including my own, and a lot of these people blame matchmaking or population imbalance for the state of the game. After these people quit the winning groups are left with no one to fight, a common complaint comes up: Unchallenging fights can be as bad as no fights.

I saw a video online: a psychologist talking about young rats play fighting. The larger rat, while capable of winning 100% of the time, will only win 70% of the time so that the younger rat will keep coming back to play with him. I’ve talked to guild leaders about it but no one is happy to lose fights on purpose: Shifting your win rate from 100% to 70% for the sake of your opponent is not something people find easy or enjoyable.

I mostly agree upon that one, even if I somehow think the “winning group” will keep on playing for the sole pleasure of trolling and burrying the outmanned server deeper in the mud. Think about spawn camping, or such things…

SubHonour Guard.6498:

Keep Fights: Pre-HoT vs Post-HoT

Thinking about it some more I come to the conclusion that keep fights play a major role in the spread of the win rate between servers. If a map is unbalanced the natural outcome is for the defenders to be pushed back to their keeps, which gives them better odds of winning fights against attackers. Kind of obvious. This is the part where I think I can put this bad feeling of mine into design terms.

The Advantage of Bannering Lords and Waypoint Gaps Pre-HoT

The major difference between pre-HoT and post-HoT keep fights is that there are no post-HoT keep fights. Attackers are very effectively held off by siege, siege disablers and tactivators, if they manage to get into the lords room they will generally be able to take the keep. The outcome of this is more population imbalance complaints. Pre-HoT it was much easier for a larger force to get into keeps but the defenders also had more options for defending against a force that was inside the lords room. Bannering the lord and using the keep waypoint between events were ways to prolong lord room fights. Prolonging lord room fights allow a smaller force to potentially cut off reinforcements and whittle away at the larger force.

While defenders have a better chance of keeping their structures post-HoT it’s often done with no fighting involved. A larger force will poke a keep, be showered with ac’s and siege disablers, leave before a fight can happen and then continue to win against anyone that fights them open field. If the population is imbalanced this is a bit of a lose-lose situation for everyone compared to pre-HoT keep fights, where a larger force would kill as many people as they could before getting repelled. While some people found it frustrating to take a keep with banner warriors, this is a situation where both forces get to fight and the smaller force gets to win. If your goal is fights then everyone wins. This also created a more natural connection between ppt and fighting.

Conclusion

Keep fights are important for keeping a 70/30 fight win rate between uneven groups which is important for the longevity of the game. For this to happen, keeps need to be redesigned to prolong the fights in keeps, not the fights to get into the keeps. Examples of this can be seen in pre-HoT gameplay that has now been removed.

I don’t think this will solve everything and I understand that skill balance might make it impossible to return to the pre-HoT days of keep fights. However, this proposal is a tangible and realistic starting point to start bringing WvW back on track.

That part bugs me more, because you’re reducing “keep fights” to “PvP fights around a keep”. Yet, defending a keep can involve more than just PvP, and your example of AC’s shower is fair in that case. The issue here is you’re totally dismissing the PPT part of defense.

Also, about keep (or tower) fights : some other day, we were a bunch of 5-6 players defending a tower, and another 5-6 players were trying to take it. Who won ? The most skilled ? Nope. Only the ones who go to bed the latest. Yet, there were PvP fights, there were siege fights etc. They were killed ? They spawned back. We were killed ? We spawned back. Until one had to go have dinner, or just left to do something else, or went sleeping. And so the tower fell. This honestly made me feel really bad, because all that defense eventually was pointless.

So, I understand the idea of “making keeps fights longer”. Yet, on another hand, I feel like it’s only a small part of a bigger issue.

Concerning updates notes, and especially balance patches like the one we got last tuesday.

For better lisibility, I’d like things to be sorted by game mode. For example :

• Guardian :
  • General changes :
    • Change that affects all game modes 1
    • Change that affects all game modes 2
    • etc.
  • PvP only :
    • Change concerning PvP only 1
    • Change concerning PvP only 2

Roscoe.2348:

Suggestions for changes to condition application.

Second option.
Change nature of Resistance so that it has no effect on conditions already on player but prevents new condi application.
Being a boon there will be counterplay with rip/steal/corrupt as opposed to the old diamond skin trait.

That one deserves to be thought of !

Not talking about WvW, but in PvE, the meta is still “zerk or marauder or gtfo”. I was yesterday in mount draconis, with air overload eles all over the place, zerk GS warriors and staff DD that were one-shot killing each and every trash mobs all around… I had the hardest time finishing my renown heart with my condi necro.

So I understand that nerf.

I’m not sure balance can be achieved, but I think a good aim is : each profession should have both condis and power builds.

It’s always hard to discuss about skills that are always lacking… Maybe you just need to just spam 1 or not, I don’t know. Concerning most map, the biggest skill-hole I see is the ability to do content by just joining a blob.

Anyway, I’m not sure it’s a matter of builds that are too cheesy or whatever (maybe in WvW) on the PvE scene, but there’s one thing related to lack of skill that I want to underline : find an ingame way to teach players how important it is, and how to break defiance bars.

There’re a lot of mobs, champions, legendary (Ignis and Aestus ppl ?) that have one, and it’s very sad to see that most players don’t know what it means when the bar gets blue, and what needs to be done. And the whole pack of players pays the price, and there’s so much toxicity after the event failed…

Vayne.8563:

I don’t really get the problem. Enemies are only interesting if they’re stronger than we are. If they’;re the same or weaker, what’s the point. If they can do only what I can do, and they can’t adjust their builds but I can, then they’re dead and not worth my time.

First of all, I would talk about encounters and not enemies because individual trash mobs aren’t that interesting in any case. And there’s a limit in the “stronger than we are” thing : it wouldn’t be enjoyable to be crushed at first blow

Now, when I think more about it, here’s an example of a system I enjoyed : GW1’s system. Mobs could “only do what I can do” : they had a profession, and a skillset that was a subset of the skill pool available to players. They often were bigger levels than the player too. Yet, they were running in packs with, say, one monk, one ranger, one mesmer, two warriors… Without a pinch of coordination and tactics, fights weren’t that easy.

Of course, it may have been a bit repetitive, but it was better than that design “Just toss a random amount of trash mobs on steroids” + “Add lots of CC to disable player’s ability to hit” we get currently. The issue is : GW1 had a profession system that GW2 has not. I mean : healers really could heal and protect, mesmers could hit far harder than retaliation or confusion etc. And it needs more IA programming.

Anyway, and to go back to that thread’s main purpose : in GW1, when a new skill was thought, designed, and put in game, it was both for players and mobs. In GW2, unfortunately, new skills are created only for mobs (expansions put aside of course), and to create a challenge that ends up tasting artificial, and leading to absurd power creep.

PS : I edited the thread title and part of my original post accordingly to suggestions, and I’m thankful for those who adressed them. I also wish to thank all those who are taking part in that thread in a polite and constructive way, even when some divergent opinions.

It seems there’re now two parallel discussions :

On general content design, the GW1 quest system, as well as most other MMO, was far better in my opinion, because what you made as a character made sense. For immersion, it’s far better. GW1 had lots of text to explain the ins and outs of what you were doing. In more recent MMO’s, it’s voiced :p
Yet, in GW2, renown hearts have, say, 3 lines to justify that you 80% of the time just have to slaughter whatever appears red on your screen. Dynamic events may have more indepth (I’m thinking of Orr, or Hinterlands) but are summarized as “follow the tag and kill everything.”
I remember events were supposed to be better for replayability and immersion (“your action really have an effect on the world”) : I think it’s wrong. You don’t feel like you’ve got a purpose, and 10 minutes later, it’ll just start again as if nothing happened. I understand there’s no way to do better in an open system though.

Specifically on Draconis map, that game design lack of quality leads to that kind of artificial replayability. Of course it’s not compulsory to get that backpack. But it’s content. Draconis Mont takes 2 hours to finish when you know it a bit, and the living story episode takes roughly the same. We waited 2 months for half a day of content, and we know we’ll have to wait 2 months for the next one. But there’re achievements to do, and collections to do. Content.
Living Story 2 achievements for glowing armor were far better designed in my opinion, precisely because they weren’t time gated. Of course, story achievements were really tedious, and now they’re better. But you didn’t have to redo the very same things every day, especially when those “things” match the flaws underlined in point 1.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Snow.2048:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

The named mercs make for some interesting encounters; I don’t think they need to change, especially since they are all easily avoided. Think they are too powerful? Don’t fight them.

I don’t read the OP as a call for npc nerfs, but more an indirect ask why new skills are being made for npcs and not given to players

ThomasC.1056:

TL;DR : Ro venombite is yet another OP character, bearing skills with no common measure with player’s. Either it’s a bug, or it’s an intended design to have a veteran so tedious to beat, but it’s time to stop the power creep, and the crazy new skills for NPC’s only.

OP is clearly asking for NPCs not to have “crazy new skills.”

I was indeed not asking for a nerf. From a gameplay point of view, that mercenary is nothing to worry too much about : she can be avoided, she’s no real threat. I’m underlining here design issues : players have been asking and asking for new skills for ages, and at each release, we see new skills designed, developped specifically for NPC’s. On top of it, it’s on-steroids version of player’s skills…

Runiir.6425:

Named or not the named classes NEED to be 100% confined to the EXACT skills the players have access to. If they can’t create a challenging encounter with those skills, it is time to take a hard look at the class as to why this is.

I totally agree. I used to have tons of fun in a game with a given set of professions, and each mob had one of those, and shared the same skill possibilities as the players. There even was a possibility to steal a skill from a dead champion enemy using a specific signet. It was the only way to get elites. I can’t remember the name of that game… Good old times.

May you be listened on the devs part.

Swagger.1459:

ThomasC.1056:

Don’t get me wrong : I’m not against challenges. And I’m not losing against Ro Venombite. Actually, when I see her shatter two or three times, and come back at 100%, I just sigh and move on. She doesn’t really harm me anyway with her skills.

I’m pointing her as a caricature example of what I think is bad design. Here is what I’m seeing with my pessimistic eyes. Draconis is a high level map, and players there are expected to come with high level gear and skills, so devs are doing power creeps in NPC’s in order to provide “challenge”. Hence, white mantle, perma-frozen Bitterfrost, CC all around, and now, On-steroids Mesmers.

There’re recurring threads here asking for new weapons skills. It’s been years I’m casting the 5 sames skills with my staff. And now what ? Now Mesmers are two, three, four HP bars ? Now, mesmers can dual wield a pistol, and use unload (which is a thief skill) while stacking 1 confusion per hit ? What kind of nonsense is that ? Content-wise, it just means the “commander of the Pact” is a newbie with average skills, and that like 50 random mercenaries know their profession better than the commander.

To me, that’s one of the laziest way to provide “challenging” content (the laziest being just raising the figures) : it’s frustrating, and it gives the (maybe false) feeling that devs are busier designing skills for useless NPC’s than new things to feed their playerbase.

Because it takes time to code all this.

So your real gripe is that you want more skills. Welcome to the huge “we are begging for more skills” club here at gw2.

My only wish is for devs to create and give content to players, and not to themselves. There’s a classical flaw in role playing games, or some board games, where the game master at first plays his role alongside the players, then he plays against the players, then he only plays with himself. ANet seems to be somewhere between the last two.

Ro and Calamity are nothing but the most recent evidences of that.

Don’t get me wrong : I’m not against challenges. And I’m not losing against Ro Venombite. Actually, when I see her shatter two or three times, and come back at 100%, I just sigh and move on. She doesn’t really harm me anyway with her skills.

I’m pointing her as a caricature example of what I think is bad design. Here is what I’m seeing with my pessimistic eyes. Draconis is a high level map, and players there are expected to come with high level gear and skills, so devs are doing power creeps in NPC’s in order to provide “challenge”. Hence, white mantle, perma-frozen Bitterfrost, CC all around, and now, On-steroids Mesmers.

There’re recurring threads here asking for new weapons skills. It’s been years I’m casting the 5 sames skills with my staff. And now what ? Now Mesmers are two, three, four HP bars ? Now, mesmers can dual wield a pistol, and use unload (which is a thief skill) while stacking 1 confusion per hit ? What kind of nonsense is that ? Content-wise, it just means the “commander of the Pact” is a newbie with average skills, and that like 50 random mercenaries know their profession better than the commander.

To me, that’s one of the laziest way to provide “challenging” content (the laziest being just raising the figures) : it’s frustrating, and it gives the (maybe false) feeling that devs are busier designing skills for useless NPC’s than new things to feed their playerbase.

Because it takes time to code all this.

moonstarmac.4603:

An old theory I have had is the reason the gods left Arah is because their magic was being siphoned by the dragons as they neared awakening. Dragons are like ley energy batteries, they absorb the overflow of magic and when it reaches its peak, they awaken and rise up. When their magic is drained, they go dormant (see Primordous and Jormag). The gods came from another world and the magic of Tyria made them stronger. By draining the power of Primordous, Balthazar was able to regain the magic that was siphoned from him.

The Mists and Tyria are not independent of each other, rather they require each other in order to exist. Destroy one, destroy both…drain magic from one (Tyria) and you drain the magic of the other (The Mists). This means, when Mordremoth died, the power of Nature and Mind returned to Melandru and Lyssa. Zaithan’s death restored power to Grenth and possibly even to Dhuum, which could lead us back into the Underworld in the near future.

Balthazar showed in the past he was willing to do anything to maintain his power. The question now, what are Dwayna and Kormir doing?

You’re assuming there’s a connection between dragons and human gods, which may be, because of the magic aspects you’re mentioning. Dwayna would be connected to Steve, accordingly with the water element, and Kormir with Kralkatorrik… Well, because it’s the last one. And their name begins with a K.

Anyway, even if it’s not clear in my mind, there also are other magic batteries : bloodstones. As they were supposed to retain some magic from the dragons, they may also have drained the human gods from their magic, hence causing the Exodus, in an attempt to get away from the bloodstone’s effect. Or, in some way, part of the gods were sealed in the bloodstones, and Balthazar’s stone is the one that exploded, releasing him alongside a fair amount of magic.

Yet, it still leaves an issue with Kormir : as she got her powers from Abbadon, she’s not supposed to be tied to a bloodstone. So I’m not really sure why she’s still away.

Thanks everyone for the nice feedback.

As most of you said, I don’t want heroes to go in open world, otherwise, it’d be a really big mess. I just want it to be an enjoyable and viable option for socially awkward people, or those who want to play “old” contents like dungeons or main story.

Sadly, I’m also positive it’d take lots of programming to create the whole system, aongside the necessary IA improvements. Anyway, it’s worth asking : it takes a wish to create a miracle.

Hello,

With some irony, I have a lot of pleasure to play my mesmer, but I think it’s time for him to retire in a peaceful abode, and go grow carrots and cabbages.

Indeed, I encountered a new mesmer : Ro Venombite . Even if she’s just a veteran mercenary, she’s able to break the illusion at 80%, still cast her spells in stealth, port elsewhere, and come back with 100% HP. And this, not only once, but seemingly every time she wants. It’s an absolute pain to fight her, and even if I recognize she can be taken down, I also admit she’s far more powerful than White Mantle mesmers that had 2 HP bars, or even those twin pistols mesmers that stack confusion.

So, the time has come. The commander of the pact is old, lacks training and new fresh skills. And there’s a nice manor in Kryta that’s now available, providing some megalomanic portraits are removed. Carrots and cabbages. That’ll be fine for the future of the commander of the Pact.

non ironic version : Ro venombite is yet another OP character, bearing skills with no common measure with player’s. Either it’s a bug, or it’s an intended design to have a veteran so boring to beat, but it’s time to stop the power creep, and the crazy new skills for NPC’s only.

Development time is wasted creating on-steroids variants of player’s skills while players are starving for new skills to play with. The sole purpose of this is to create an artificial challenge, and even that fails because those named mercenaries aren’t a real threat whatsoever.

Aren’t there better ways to create challenging encounters than tossing handfuls of overpowered trash mobs blasting CC’s all around ?

In that specific case, my opinion on this is : they’ve been afraid of their own boldness.

I think at first, they wanted all the trinkets to be reset-able, and so was Bloodstone Fen released. Then they realised that once players will have farmed the 3 required maps with all their characters, they’ll be equipeed with ascended trinkets with selectable stats (the fee is too low) forever, and so won’t get any incentive to replay the maps, or do further contents with that kind of rewards.

And so, they removed that ability.

I understand the point. Even if I acknowledge it’s “good” for the map’s replayability, it truly feels artificial. What bothers me the most is hearts are boring as hell. I remember that manifesto when they said they wouldn’t do NPC’s with an arrow overhead that’d send you kill 15 rats and fetch 10 apples. At least, in those games, it’s the beginner’s quests (and not the latest map’s) and you more or less have some story behind those apples. Here, it’s mostly “secure the position and bother the bad guys”. So it consists in

1. Doing the wardbough’s event chain
2. Find an appropriate spider’s spawn spot
3. Find an appropriate mercenary’s spawn spot
4. Do the power suit’s event chain

Good thing : it’s a matter of 45 min when you’re lucky. But it truly lacks some epicness.

Now, if you consider bloodstone fen, ember bay and bitterfrost frontier, there was a reason to go back and farm them : ascended trinkets. Lake Doric and Draconis lack that reason because their trinkets don’t have more “value”. Lake Doric has the seraph stats things that may need some farming though.

So, I’m also doing that backpack “quest” with no passion, but I’m interested in the lore, and I don’t have very much better to do.

From what I recall from this AMA, they’re thinking about creating a reset item for all the ascended trinkets from all maps, but it’s still discussed.

I’d really go for GW1’s PC.

The reason is, aside from all the OP stated, he also fought powerful shining enemies, to learn really powerful spells and skills. He was truly the leader of all that happened, and could gather friends and powerful heroes.

In front of him, GW2’s PC is a lame guy used as a doormat by most of his friends, isn’t truly respected, has Taimi explain him what to do all the time, and provide him with tech to fulfill whatever he cannot do. Left alone, that poor guy could only wipe in front of each and every people on Tyria that is more powerful than him, like Jennah, or Valette Wi for Mesmers. He’s merely a doll in a coconut following the stream of events, and obligingly performing whatever Taimi tells him to do.

Hello,

I know it’s been a recurring idea, but recent events put that idea back in my mind, so I think it’s good time to suggest it here.

The idea is to allow a player to build a party out of some iconic NPC’s for instanced content only.

How does it work ?

• Iconic NPC’s are :
  • The ones that go to your home instance after story including MOX
  • Destiny’s edge and Dragon’s Watch
  • Some others like Zildi or Chrysanthea (the ones on the Islands in Dragon Stand).
• NPC’s will have to be unlocked for that purpose, through a quest, or event chain, or even a collection. Complexity will depend of the NPC’s power/level (veteran, champion, legend)
• NPC’s will use their default build.
• NPC’s with a class (say, Rev Rytlock) will be customizable : the player will need to provide them with weapons, and maybe spend some points of whatever to unlock their skills. It’ll need more IA programming though.
• NPC’s will gather either in home instance, or in their own home (Destiny’s edge and Dragon’s watch roughly have one), or in some kind of headquarters.
• When you plan to do something, you go talk to them with a “Please come with me in my next adventure” system.
• Once your party is setup, entering an instancied content, like a dungeon, would put the NPC’s with you. If you’re going with friends, and the party gets too big, a dialog would ask who is to be removed.

To dwell deeper

Now, things would be crazy if these “instancied contents” also were story episodes. That’d be just cosmetic, and you could enjoy Canach’s witty tongue all the time, or dismiss Braham if you don’t like him.

Then if a sidekick is compulsory, or forbidden (because he’s dead at this time of the story, or you’ll meet him in the instance) a simple dialog would ask you to add or remove him.

Expected benefits

• Easier access to somehow neglected instancied content, like dungeons.
• Better replayability of dungeons or story
• Purpose to run the story to unlock NPC’s
• More immersion of players : as the commander of the Pact, they at last get to choose whom they fight along with
• Gold, gear and Hero points sink.

Feel free to comment

Hello,

Sorry, I can’t do below 75 words, but I tried to make it as easy to read as I could.

Story :

• A fair episode overall.
• Maybe it’s too fast-paced ? After all, it’s a big shift in the flow of events that’s taken here.
• First mission is ok.
• Kasmeer is a disappointement. I was so happy to meet her again, and was “Wow, she truly kicks quaggans now”, and then she just hides under the blankets. Meh.
• Very nice scenery in the last mission, but last fight was a huge mess, which didn’t help follow the storytelling. Not really sure about what’s really happening in the end.
• Big regret : no racial-specific dialogs. Lore-wise, it’s a shame, considering how much lore there’s in the story. I know it’s more work, but it’d be far better for immersion with 4 branches :
  1. Generic ;
  2. Charr ;
  3. Human blessed by Balthazar ;
  4. Human blessed by another god.

Draconis Mons :

• Overall nice and varied landscapes : I like it ; I’m just fonder of forests, but that’s my taste.
• Navigation is tedious. I’m getting used to it, but I think that kind of layout must be avoided. Previous ones were far better on that topic.
• Mini-map is no help. Some icons are very tricky.
• moderate issue : legendary wyverns are not fit for melee fighters. When they destroy a significant part of their podium, it’s impossible to melee them. Lava wurm is very much the same. Even if there’s that spot for melee fighters, you’re not at melee range (even at the closer edge) and you’re tossed in the lava all the time.
• huge problem : all those slopes and rocks and steps are causing collision issues, auto-attacks not working because “that asura is one step above me”, Searing fissure cancelling because of that, teleports not working “no valid path”, etc. If you’re not able to fix your engine to avoid those, then forbid yourself to develop that kind of areas. That truly ruins the experience.
• Remember that manifesto where you stated that you didn’t want quests to be “go kill 15 rats and fetch 10 apples” ? Congratulations, you did worse than this ! Renown hearts are a pain. They have no training value (while rats had some, considering it was beginner quests), they’re just braindead killing, and take ages to fulfill. It’s just slightly better with events. It’s been the same since Ember Bay. Something must be done.

Miscelleanous

• New mastery is nice when you get the hand of it.
• New back item collection is enjoyable. It’ll help with replayability. If it wasn’t here, I’d just finish the map with all my toons, and never go back in.
• Map-collectibles in collection : big THANKS.

I confirm for crystal : it’s dragonite, and it’s realted to the healing stat.

On one hand, I understand that strengthening the boonshare meta makes me sigh a lot, for all the reasons told above.
On another hand, I also think that such things might favor more varied game styles, and is a step back to more role-defined builds. Not too sure about it…

With the risk of broading that thread. What do you think of the rune ?

Kilo.2539:

If I can see through your sadness and hurt feelings I’m guessing you are trying to say that in terms of damage- DOT is not as effective as DPS and therefore justifies why condi classes can go full tank mode?

Actually, no. I’m just saying that if you want to compare such effectivity, you need an appropriate modeling, in order to get reliable numbers. I’m not saying I have them here, and I’m really interested in having them, and even do some calculations.

Kilo.2539:

What is the risk and reward for going power? The reward is you smash people, the risk is you can get 2 shot by a rev auto attack.

What is the risk and reward for going condi? The reward is you can just stack massive amounts of condi and kite while being as tanky and trolly as the game will allow. There is no risk really.

So… Roughly, the reward is the ability to stack damage in one case, and build stacks in the other. It makes no real sense. It’s just like saying “I can stack 75000 damage”. Of course you can. How much time will that take ? What openings for a damage mitgation are available for your oponent ? Answer this, and things become at the same time more accurate, and more interesting.

Just like above, people saying it’s not only a matter of armor and HP, with that warrior vs. thief discussion. It’s intersting : it shows it’s not only those numbers that matter.

I’m not saying “condi’s lame please neurf” or “powa is so OP plz nerf asap”. I’m just trying to figure out how those things work

Kilo.2539:

ThomasC.1056:

-snip-

Damage numbers aren’t really the issue. The issue is when DOT can be as effective (if not more) than DPS while also having full Dire, or Trailblazer gear equipped.

I guess to put it in perspective- imagine a power class at 50% crit chance and 200% crit damage wearing wanderer gear.

Well, considering the “effectivity” is, for a significant part, a matter of damage numbers, then my points aren’t discarded at all. To put it into perspective, don’t compare speed and position, when you’re actually trying to study movement.

As long as the discussion will focus on specific stats, specific synergies, or professions, then it won’t lead anywhere.

Hello,

My apologizes for being the naive voice, but as I’d like to be rational on that topic, I want to do some maths, and I’m now facing a fundamental yet really easy issue : what is it you’re really comparing ?

I’m positive DPS (Damage Per Second) now translates as raw damage, as in “power build”, while DOT (Damage Over Time) points more towards condis builds. Unfortunately, to do some maths, you need to put things square. You can’t compare damage and damage “divided by a given amount of time”.

So the first step is to define what exactly you want to put into balance. For example, you can compare the damage delt by 100 blades in a full berserker set (4916 without crits), and the total damage delt by Flame burst in a full dire set (4136 with no duration bonus).
But it neglects the fact that flame burst will take twice as long to deal it.

Likewise, if you consider raw power damage over time, you’re including things like the time taken to close gaps.

All this to say that it’s not just a matter of damage vs. survivability, and much more needs to be taken into account. And I’m not saying everything is fine ; don’t take me wrong.

jacksmith.6028:

The game isn’t designed for roaming – it’s designed for large scale battles.

Considering the insane lag any blob causes, this assertion is at best doubtful.

Baldrick.8967:

I’d hate to see this change. No downed state would reward stupid stealth mechanic builds and huge bursts to the detriment of more balanced builds.

Deciding whether to res the downed state or downed that low HP opponent in a small scale fight is part of the tactics and skill of small scale- it also means that stupid stealth burst or huge condi burst toons don’t get an auto kill.

If you remove downed state then it would push even more the condi meta as everyone would tank up in zergs and there would be even less build variety. Who would want to play ele when the enemy has 5-10 thiefs ganking squishies the whole time?

Get rid of downed state and we’d see stealth wars- or have you never met the 5 man roaming party of scrapper, mes and 3 thiefs (or two and a druid) that appear briefly to down you and disappear just as quickly?

I understand this, and I can relate. Yet it’s also a fact that a lot of classes use stealth to secure stomps, which also ruins the point of having a downed state in a hope to rally. The issue you’re pointing is stealth and burst strategies.

The broader issue here is that sometimes players feel like they “deserved” the stomp, because they managed to fight outnumbered, for exemple. Yet not only are they denied the stomp, but also eventually killed, which leads to frustration, abandon of “mildly underperforming” builds, installation of a meta scene, cheese, stealth and bursts… In a nutshell : what you’re complaining about.

But it’s impossible to tell when a stomp is “deserved” from a rational point of view.

Sister Saxifrage.7361:

If condi builds, thieves, mesmers, warriors, and druids are all so OP… you could… try out condi builds, thieves, mesmers, warriors, or druids? If it’s the OP build that makes them win, if you have the build then you will win. Unless… could it be… it’s not the build, and they’re just better at WvW than you? No, surely not.

That’s not necessarily that easy. Maybe the purpose of playing is not winning, but rather “have fun”. Of course, you have fun when you win, but you also need to play a build that appeals to you.

Unfortunately, a lot of WvW roamers don’t share this view, pick the cheesy build and voilà : bags and easy kills.

Deniara Devious.3948:

First of all Arenanet developers should communicate more and explain why these server links were made like they were.

FSP has got linked server twice in a row despite being “full” status. And Desolation is once again the only international server without a link. Well, last time SFR was also without a link. I think SFR deserved a link then, but for some weird reason they linked Piken & FSP, which were both full top servers… weird logic indeed!

The almost total lack of communication and giving players the feeling that things are unfair is certainly NOT going to attract more players to this game mode.

I read somewhere a while ago that devs weren’t just trying to balance population, but they’re also trying to provide “interesting” matchups. Maybe last time they created servers that were really overstacked specifically for T1 fights, without anticipating it’d let some other servers to rot and melt because of terribly unbalanced fights causing frustration and departures.

For now, it’s probably too early to tell it’d fine, but it’s clearly better than before. With the previous linkings, we could tell the very day after the reset that we were going to be steamrolled the whole week lol.

I think a market reasoning may work for leather : the supply is more or less identified as farming, and the demand relates to crafting costs. Every ascended armor needs a lot of it, so as the demande exceeds the supply…

Now, for mystic coins, I’m more mixed feelings about it. As far as I’m concerned, I’m sitting on little less than 1000 of those. Why so much ? Here’re some reasons :

• I could use them, but :
  • I’m not currently running after a legendary
  • I’m not really interested by the items you can get using them in the mystic forge.
• I could sell them but :
  • I’m positive that even if the supply is predictable, it’s a time investment, so I’m keeping them to save time, just in case I’d need them.
• I could turn them into gold. I do it from time to time, mainly to buy gems afterwards.

In a nutshell, I have no use for them right now, but I’m keeping them just in case something useful will pop. Then I’ll use them then, or turn them into gold (aka. sell them) according to my needs. In a sense, I’m using them as a store of value, but I’m also just storing them for an uncertain future usefulness, therefore using their intrinsic value.

My question is : how many people are doing like me ? Does ANet count my ~1000 mystic coins in the overall game stock ? Because that’d make a big shift between all the mystic coins stored just in case, and the amount traded between those who don’t care at all about them, and those who are craving for them.

I’m on AR, and I share the pain and disappointement that can be caused by discutable linkings, and issues coming out of population coverage, considering that we were in your position in the 7 previous matchups. Which makes the whole linking but this week.

I’ve got a guildmate on AG, very active in WvW, and from what I’m discussing with her, you still have things to take pride of : some active guilds, a fair teamwork and sorta organisation (we’re somehow lacking that on AR) and… You defend ! I mean, I can’t go to a camp without having defenders coming. I can’t take a shrine or a camp without having it flipped as soon as the timer goes 0. I praise you for this. In AR, you often see keeps or towers taken and noone cares about camps, dollies and such.

It’s not always easy, nor it is fun, but at least, it’s something you can take pride of.

Nate.3927:

I don’t consider it skilled gameplay when you’re fighting 1v3 and you try to stomp the one guy you got downed. There are better ways to achieve victory, such as bursting the people trying to res.

I’ve seen such cases and complained about it too, and also asked for outnumbered players to insta kill their enemies instead of downing them. Increasing damage to downed players or speed is fine too.

Even bursting the area with all the attacks you have isn’t enough : when they’re 2 to res, either the stomp is too slow, or your damage output is. You just can’t. Moreover, when you try to stomp, as you’re close to the 3 of them, it’s often a death trap.

I agree something needs to be done : managing a 1 vs 3 fight is getting more and more hopeless, and it’s sad, because things could be done. Even if I also acknowledge downstate and ressing is part of the game. Honestly, they’re right to do so. It’s just frustrating.

The trailer says so.

Episode 5 being on may the 2nd, episode 6 should air the soonest on july the 4th. August the 8th the latest. I’m expecting a nice cliffhanger at the end of episode 6, and an announcement for an xpac coming out for christmas.

But I can’t wait to see Kasmeer and Lazarus again !

Teon.5168:

Guess I must be an exception, as I see people in dbl all the time when I am roaming. /shrug

So do I, so you’re not an exception.

Blockhead Magee.3092:

Deaeira.2651:

Thanks for repeating it… it’s really a pity because once people decided they don’t like DBL, they kept at it, even though a lot got better.

If you don’t like liver, it doesn’t matter if a 5 star chef makes the best liver every done by human kind, you still don’t like liver.

The desert bl is that crappy. (though I do like liver)

Fair enough. I’d add that if you don’t like liver, you don’t demonstrate every week in front of that restaurant which serves the best liver in the world to ask it to be removed from the menu because you think liver is crap and nobody could possibly enjoy such a dish.

And yet, that’s what happens with DBL.

coro.3176:

The cliffs, ledges, pillars and things around objectives are what make DBL fun, IMO. I love fighting between the pillars on west keep inner, or on top of the narrow ledges above them. I love pulling people off the cliffs at east keep and line-of-sight-ing around stairwells. It’s more interesting than the usual zerg vs zerg that happens on EBG every day.

That’s so true. Some other day, I cast a little pack of enemies trying to use a cata down the litle bridge at west air shrine, using point blank shot. I think I pitch one of them like 3 times. Poor little fella. I bet he went straight away in the forums asking for the map to be removed afterwards.

Dawdler.8521:

Also there are still fire turrets/wind etc.

They’re still on the map and landscape, but they’ll never on, even when you’ve got the three shrines. Fire turrets never fire, blowing turrets never blow. Have a look on the wiki for shrines of fire and shrines of air

It’s been this since the update that was released in February the 8th . Here’s the quote :

Shrine bonuses have been rearranged and changed in the Desert borderlands. The last shrine bonus for each shrine is now a themed jump pad that will allow players to travel from one shrine to the next. These jump pads will make it easier for players to traverse the area.
Shrine of Earth:
* Activates lodestones that grant protection and stability to allies. This is used to cripple enemies.

• A sandstorm that reveals all enemies.
• Asura launch pads that launch players to all the shrines and inside the keep itself.

Shrine of Fire:

• Inferno Hound :
  • Increased the movement speed of the hound.
  • Added swiftness to skill 3.
• The Flame’s Embrace effect allows players to walk on lava. It functions the same as it used to but is now the second bonus instead of the third.
• Fire tornadoes that launch players to all of the shrines.

Shrine of Air:

• Air jump pads that allow players to jump to high ledges at various places in the keep. No changes were made to this bonus.
• The Windfall effect allows players to not take fall damage while near the keep. This functions the same as it used to but is now the second bonus instead of the third.
• Eagle clouds that transform players into eagles so they can glide to each shrine

It may be a rune of the guardian or Amplified wrath ?

Dawdler.8521:

ThomasC.1056:

miguelsil.6324:

Dawdler.8521:

Or how about we dont remove everything that makes GW2 just GW2 and instead actually focus on fixing major balance issues like condition output of certain builds, healing output of certain builds, stealth stacking and possibly even scoring issues if we are feeling ambitious?

I agree with major balances in builds classes most used in wvw but still feels less rewarding specially in outnumbered fights that we down someone and they r insta brought back because of numbers ONLY. but i can take babysteps. Remove downsstate while outnumbered buff is on then.

That last idea seems appealing. When a server is outnumbered, there’s no downstate for other servers. Insta kill, and no revive. My sadistic side also thinks of a “time out” of killed players from non-outnumbered players.

So you would be totally ok with fighting say 2v5 and you dont have downstate but the 5 do?

Because that’s still what will happen when those 5 are outmanned on the border because your side got 30 people AFK queueing EB in spawn.

To be honest, I’ve never seen such a situation, and should it happen, it’d be an issue with the server, and not with the game, so : deal with it.

Usually, when I’m outnumbered in a map, I’m the only single character on that map, with the heavy duty to try and do something worth in it. And I happen to find fights and engage even in 1 vs. 3. Yet, when I down one, the 2 others revive it fast, so there’s absolutely no hope. If it was a plain kill, with no possibility for the 2 others to revive their friend, then maybe things could get more interesting. And that’s the meaning of that idea.

It was a joke-idea at first, but on second thought, it may not be that stupid after all.

miguelsil.6324:

Dawdler.8521:

Or how about we dont remove everything that makes GW2 just GW2 and instead actually focus on fixing major balance issues like condition output of certain builds, healing output of certain builds, stealth stacking and possibly even scoring issues if we are feeling ambitious?

I agree with major balances in builds classes most used in wvw but still feels less rewarding specially in outnumbered fights that we down someone and they r insta brought back because of numbers ONLY. but i can take babysteps. Remove downsstate while outnumbered buff is on then.

That last idea seems appealing. When a server is outnumbered, there’s no downstate for other servers. Insta kill, and no revive. My sadistic side also thinks of a “time out” of killed players from non-outnumbered players.

Svarty.8019:

ThomasC.1056:

For a given map, I added the kills for the 3 servers, than I added the deaths. It doesn’t match. There’s like 100 deaths in excess.
How does that work ?

Presuming that you mean you mean this:
Deaths – Kills = ~100

Falling from cliffs makes characters die without enemies killing them.

If, on the other hand, you mean more people gain kills than people die,
I suppose everybody who tagged an enemy gains a kill whereas they only die once.

Death – Kills >0 yes. I guess it cliffs. Or NPC’s killing PC’s, which proves they’re not so bad after all

Something is bugging me about all this…

I looked at the intel about my matchup. For a given map, I added the kills for the 3 servers, than I added the deaths. It doesn’t match. There’s like 100 deaths in excess.
How does that work ? It should more or less be the same, considering that one blue killing one green should be one kill for blue and one death for green…

By the way, on the kill counter : Blue BL : 44%, Red BL : 29% and Green BL : 22% (kills on one BL, as a percentage of total kills, excluding EBG) . Not so bad for a deserted map.

Hello folks,

Here are two suggestions on the dyes topic :

• A deep panel revamp for a better lisibility
• A new unlocking functionnality, with a success/fail mechanism, using unindentified dyes as a way to increase the odds of success.

Dyes panel revamp

There currently are 3 filters. Those are fine, but we may need one more information : which pack does the dye belong to. Either as a tooltip information, or as a new filter.

Likewise, dyes should be arranged in a table fashion, instead of a list, so that two sorting filters could be active at the same time.

New dyes unlocking system

Currently, when right-clicking on a dye, you can access the BLTC to by it on the TP, which is nice.

I’d like to add a new “unlock dye” functionnality, which would allow player to take a chance to unlock a dye, with their unidentified dyes. It’d work as follow :

• When clicking “unlock dye”, a panel would open, with a progression bar, from 0 to 100%.
• The panel also has slots in which the player can put all kind of unidentified dyes, or dye kits.
• Various kind of unidentified dyes can be combined on the panel
• Each of those items adds a given percentage to successfully unlock the dye. For example, unidentified dyes would be worth 40% chance to unlock a rare (non BLTC) dye. Which means that using 3 unidentified dyes is a 100% success to get the colour you want.
  • “Unidentified coloured dyes” would add a bonus chance for their colour, which would increase with the rarity. They can be used for another colour set, yet with a malus.
  • “Dye packs” would add an even greater bonus for the colour they contain, and could only be used for those.
  • “Celebratory dye packs” and such would be worth a 100% chance to unlock the dies they contain, and could only be used for those.
• Depending on rarity, the odds would vary, so that unlocking a blue rarity dye would cost less than unlocking a special pack dye.
• If the unlock is a failure, the players get a grey-rarity junk item called “Spoiled mixture” and worth 10 silver, as a compensation.
• Unidentified dyes still keep their functionnality, and it’d still be possible to double-click them for a random dye.

As such, it’d probably equalize the price of TP dyes, for a given rarity. It’d also probably increase the price of unidentified dyes, so their drop rate will have to be investigated, to keep a healthy economy. Chef crafted dyes would also need some tweak, so that they wouldn’t set the kit dyes as exceedingly cheap dyes.

Thanks for reading ! Feel free to comment !

coro.3176:

The last thing we need is to reward players sitting on siege in keeps. If anything, they need incentives to come out and fight.

From a pure tactical point of view, that’s pure nonsense. It’s far safer to defend while in the structure, behind walls, and using siege. I only wish sieges were even more powerful, so that monkeys jumping around and yelling “Hey ! Come spar with me !” were one-shot.

Now, from a gaming point of view, what’s the point of jumping down ? Get laglocked stunned and melted ? The only rational reason I can imagine from not standing on walls using siege is to avoid AoE…

Reaper Alim.4176:

You are correct. Only changing person rewards to punish players who only PvD and run from fights, will. But I think I already named that as a proven solution that has worked in another MMO that has RvR-ish support.

People cry about PvD and people running from fights. Yet don’t want to implement the features or changes that would help in this endeavor. The community of GW2 as a whole, don’t want decent fights, just easy “I Win Buttons and mechanics”.

In the end the community and the devs just want GW2’s version of RvR. To be a PvE K-Train fest. And that all to it. Barely anyone in GW2 wants decent fights. Hell that’s why players play GW2, and not other fight oriented or skill based MMOs/games. At least be honest with yall selves. Because yall are not fooling anyone else and certainly yall not fooling the devs at ANet.

~edited to add content.

The GW2 community that wanted fights and skill based gameplay. Are all but gone. Most just read the forums to see, if by off chance ANet makes changes. Then go back to doing what they was doing.

And

Reaper Alim.4176:

• Capturing a undefended or lightly defended objective yelds nearly no personal rewards compared to capturing a highly defended objective. Now in that MMO we have very little of the run from fights and back cap mindset. Players clash with each other at nearly every chance they get for better rewards.
• The more players that tags a target the less rewards personal rewards that group of players get. After this change we went from the omni-blobs that overpowers GW2 currently to maybe 2 to 3 separate raid groups of 24 attacking different objectives. And also way more small scale then prior to this change. Because the less players with you the more rewards you get. Which push players to only omni-blob on rare occasions, because in those events you was going to get nothing for omni-blobing just for sake of omni-blobing.

Aside from the issue of player’s behaviour, which I mostly share, there’s a point that I’d like you to dig a bit, because I really find you have interesting ideas. Here’re my questions :

• When you’re talking about a “defended” objective : are you referring to players defending it, or are you including the “upgraded” objective status ?
• Players’ “tangible” rewards are loot, items from reward tracks, and leveling rewards. Which are mostly of poor value (some ascended stuff put aside). So, are you suggesting to buff “tangible” rewards for small groups ? Or some other kind of reward ?
• Small teams and coordination appeals to me, yet how should PUGs be handled ? As they’d make the numbers raise, they’d lower the rewards, and it may bring toxicity.

Capping an objective or holding it rewards points per tick or per cap to the server, and not to the players. Fights rewards loot and PPK to the server. For now, there is no connection between server score and player’s rewards, and I think it’s worked on. I think something needs to be done with scoring and rewards so that player’s individual interest (in loot e.g.) would meet a servers’ score interest, and compensate for the lack of players that play for “good fights” or “to make their server win”.

Leaa.2943:

DBL is a punishment for the server that get it. It is a very inactive map that most players avoid going too. I will keep on posting this link until people stop telling DBL is fine, it isn’t.
http://i.imgur.com/fWWmFKR.jpg

It does ofc not mean that noone ever like DBL ofc there are players who do. But most of the players do not like it and do not move to the map when being attacked which again is a huge disadvantage to the server who is red.

Just to make sure, what is exactly that “Share of the border” thing ?

Ben K.6238:

Even on a completely flat map, people would still be avoiding each other. DBL just makes it really easy.

If seeking out a fight was actually beneficial no matter whether you were outnumbered or not, DBL would work better. As it is, there are some compromises at the moment that I don’t think have worked for anyone concerned.

Originally, the plan behind the barricades was to make holding ground mean something. If you take the southern towers on ABL, it gives you little real advantage. The southwest tower allows you to treb a small part of outer Bay, and the southeast tower only allows you to be trebbed from Hills – not particularly helpful.

It’s only once you get to the northern towers that you can seriously pressure a keep with them, and by the time you’re that far up the map and can hold the towers long enough to build trebs in them, you’ve got numerical superiority anyway and don’t need the help of the towers.

That’s where DBL is actually better designed. You want to crack open a keep with trebs, you’ve got to defend them in the open field. ABL you just wedge something into your keyboard to hold down the fire key while you go do something else, because there’s little the other server can ever do to take your treb out. EB has exactly the same problem, but with different objectives involved.

DBL’s barricades were actually brilliant for playing the PPT game, because you didn’t have to worry as much about roamers coming by and flipping your camps while you were dealing with the main threat of enemy zergs. It was prohibitively difficult to get all the way to a north camp without being detected – you had to run around so many barricades and pass at least two sentries close to the defender’s spawn. All the defending server had to scout for was the enemy zergs, which should be much easier.

The problem was, of course, the PPT game is deeply unpopular so all of that was a wash. That way of playing hasn’t been particularly satisfying since launch – the running around smashing things way of playing (whether players or doors) is all that’s lasted.

So DBL was designed for the game ANet wanted WvW to be, not for the game it is now.

If they want it to work, they’ll have to find a way to make their original vision work. I hope they do, because it sounded great back then. Just wondering if I’ll have to wait until GW3 to see it.

Brilliant post. I wouldn’t have put it better by myself.

Still, there’s a paradox between what you’re saying (people avoiding fights) and the recurring claim of people wanting fights and improving PPK. My two cents on that is : when there’s a duel, one loses, and the other wins, and people usually want to win ;-)

So this is why it’s, to me, healthier to focus on PPT instead of PPK : when the purpose and aim is keeps/towers/etc., the fights become a “side-effect”. Players get thus less “emotionnaly engaged” in these, which keeps the overall environement healthy.

You should add to this the absence of GvG which causes a substantial part of WvW players come in BL’s to replace GvG. This makes me fear we’ll have to wait for GW3 to have a true tactical RvR game, alongside GvG open fields. Mostly because, as far as I agree on the “DBL was a map designed the way ANet wanted WvW to be”, all the cuts made (some were necessary) to DBL show the devs are probably looking for an in between.