Guild Wars 2

I. Freaking. Love this.

Carry on.

Fenrir.6183:

Did you even read my message ? I describe this kind of situations. Yes, people will drop fields. Will other people have the time to use them ? Probably not, or not much. So all in all, they won’t have such a big impact as you seem to believe they do.
What has impact is sticking together, following the same tactic, moving fast and avoiding AoEs. Obviously when you stack together, the area heals will heal everybody.

Re-read my previous post please, then answer me.
And fyi i usually play in well coordinated teams, my server is in top tier in europe for a reason.

You seem to be talking about the same thing, but have different subjective interpretations of their meaning. Its a bit pointless, tbh, and its definitely off topic.

Anywho, there are a lot of mixed feelings on the sword. After a couple dozen hours of practice, I felt like I had the basics down. I havent found another weapon on another class that requires this. So, perhaps some attention does need to be paid to the sword in some regard. What many request on it I flat out do NOT agree with, but that doesnt mean a real compromise doesnt exist. When the GS was buffed, I actually have not used the sword since. It doesnt help that the maul animation on an Asura is so freaking cute yet destructive.

I really feel that rangers find their true strength when they build with a particular task in mind. With my ranger, if I am accompanied by a support guardian, I am able to create pure chaos into even an organized zerg because they tend to clump together.

I did this with piercing arrows, high fury uptime, high crit damage, and sigil of fire. I get 20% extra damage from flanking, and with a support guard buffing and healing, they enemy zerg NEEDS to deal with us. In doing so, it opens up the other flank for the main forces of my teams.. uh.. team!

When flanking, my SB will hit for 1500+ on a crit (with fury and food, crit rate is over 80%) on a fully geared level 80. It starts to go over 2k on lowbies/glass cannons. Once you start adding in life steal food and sigil of fire, it really does serious damage. Because of the extremely fast fire rate, it can be pretty devastating. And, I find that I am hit by less retal than if I use barrage. I also run muddy ground and frost trap to.. help things along.

Basically, I figured out a goal on how I wanted to help. Especially in a PUG zerg where things may not be organized, but they ARE predictable. Then, I designed my entire build around accomplishing that with JUST enough survivability to not buckle under pressure (2500 armor and… 18k health(??)).

Other classes seem to do their “job” inherently. You just build to make them stronger. I felt it wasnt quite the same approach with rangers, regardless of weapon choice. I found much more success when I went for a very, very specific build to compliment a very, very specific play style and strategy.

BlazeQ.1095:

MMMMMM Quagans…. you have found a hungry Char’s weakness.

Thank you for this information. I shall promptly use it against all Charrs and conquer their legions! Mwahahahaha!

Great matchup this week. Having some fun fights with both DH and IOJ. Every day seems like a call to step up my own ability’s. Thanks for that!

DH and IoJ have a “thing.” Its a bit abusive sometimes, but its a beautiful manifestation of life. :’)

NSP was welcomed into this with the legendary tale of Commander Bird Song attempting to solo SM against the hordes of DH. It didnt end too well though, and a certain Norn Guardian pick pocketed him of 5g while he was downed. See? Abusive, yet so beautiful!

Castaliea.3156:

Do you have any ideas for some more tools you’d like to see Tulu? Anything your personal experiences in WvW can shed some light on?

You are actively asking others for their opinion?

Respect. Thats rare nowadays.

I think the first thing is that any changes would need to take place slowly, and ideally, on a test server. It might seem unrelated, but I think implementing a test server would be very, very, very good.

Overall, I want to see more freedom in what we can build and where we can build it. I actually wish that we were given more of a toolset with the BPs, where through some action/work/acheivement/foundry type deal we are actually able to research and design our OWN blueprints, structures, etc.

To be honest, I am not even sure how you could go about implementing this, but it is the “ideal” I dream about.

Now, I know this isnt realistic, but hey! You asked! :P

I would like to see reset start off with completely empty maps, devoid of structures. We would have to build those structures on our own, but to upgrade them past a certain point, we would have to make them “captureable” by the other servers. It could be based on the tried and true RTS-style resource method, where you need to gather wood, ore, and food (something which is already available on the maps).

A man can dream, right?

BlazeQ.1095:

You also caught us while there was a in game wedding.

THERE WILL BE NO LOVE OR HAPPINESS HERE!!!!!

Only death and quaggans, peaches and anarchy.

!

Moon;

I could not agree more. I would love for more complexity to be added in the tools available in WvW.

The thing is, there are some very vocal players (perhaps even the majority in the forums) that want to just go head to head and toe to toe and consider the use of tools as “cheap.”

While I disagree, personally (and even made a long post/thread about it), they have a point. That said, perhaps if more variety was present, it could change the attitude around. I think with the added variety, and expanded arenas that could include up to 100 players (random number), that it would address everyones preference.

I am going to have to agree thakittens pretty darn annoying. We do have the tools to address it, but if we are going to have arbitrary ways of increasing difficulty, I would rather Anet tone the CCs down and increase mob health/damage.

In WvW, though amount of CC that guards can dish out, on seemingly no CD whatsoever, is pretty annoying. Scouts constantly spamming blind is just annoying. All you have to do is switch to ranged, but it seems like the difficulty that is trying to be achieved could be done in much better ways. I cant WAIT for games to get AI to the point where one of those scouts could actually outsmart me.

I just think that Anet could make it just as difficult, but in a less annoying way. One of the things I enjoyed about GW1 was that mobs had the same skills as players, and worked on the same mechanics. It was really kind of a neat system, imo.

As colesy said, it all depends on the individual sigil.

In the case of sigil of fire, it is an AoE blast, meaning up to five players can be hit. It also has an internal cooldown.

Killing Joke.4371:

My clock runs slow coz people were mean to me.

Boo!

L2C (learn to clock)

Noobs….

I have been asking for something similar since release.

I most definitely want! However, it would need to be done properly or it would result in massive (and I mean MASSIVE) exploitation of it even in open field.. You could essentially lock someone into their spawn point if you had enough people and supplies.

I actually would love a general “build” toolset where we could build our own fortifications, towers, etc using supply then upgrade them as normal. Though, I think for that to be reasonable, we would need much larger maps and it would probably require a full redesign of WvW. Not that I am against that in principle, its just kitten unlikely!

Some of these I would have to see in action to really determine whether or not I would enjoy them.

That said, I really like the ideas conceptually. I especially would enjoy just getting more tools, period, in WvW to change it up. I made a post about the “positive” side of this game becoming “siege wars 2,” and I think if Anet is going to go in that direction, then implementing more tools we can use is nothing but a good thing. I WANT more pieces to use on my chess board, and I WANT an arena where people can get their open field fight on. Once they address these two items, Ill be a happy camper.

As for the “punishment” thing, Ill wax philosophical about it (as I tend to do anyway :P). People rarely look at improving themselves, and would rather bring others down to their level. This is likely the basis behind the ratio of “nerf:buff” posts. Most are much, much more likely to ask for a nerf of “x” than they are to ask for a buff to themselves. Aint nuthin gonna change there!

There are a lot of ways to approach a thief as a ranger, so I wont go into them all.

One word though; “Traps.” A properly played trap ranger is a very, very real threat to any class including thieves.

THE Dentist.5960:

Again props to the PD guild, oh how I hate you guys ;-).

I am just glad they are on my side, lol. They are ultra sneaky. Thanks to them for the short run on garrison in IoJBL on my upleveled guard!

Zelyhn.8069:

Do you understand my point?

Yeah, I do.

The more pertinent question is; Do you understand ours?

Do you really not see the correlation, even in what you typed? Doing so may take some introspection, but its all based on prejudiced superiority and perceived by the general population in a negative light for that very reason.

I could see a racist saying something like "you are inferior to me because of “x.” Its just a fact, and you have no reason to feel bad about it. Its just how it is."

Regardless of your intentions, the other side of the equation is the perception of those you communicate with. Which leads me to my initial point that many self-proclaimed elitists tend to have difficulty in social interaction.

I speak from experience on this. “Hi, I am Tuluum and I am a semi-reformed elitist but still a troll.”

Sororita.3465:

go go nsp, you gonna win? second? not third >.>

/high-five

That is quite the outfit you have there.

GavinGoodrich.1382:

DH was big before, just seems bigger this time around

I am not sure if we have gotten many transfers (though I swore I heard we were getting one guild), but I do know we have been playing pretty cohesively for a reset.

Jemmi.6058:

IMO Elitist is to Elite as Racist is to Race

Basically Elite = High level of skill
Elitist = Being prejudice vs others based on level of skill

Just as Race = Cultural and geographical origins
Racist = Being prejudice vs others based on race

I think that sums it up better than I could have hoped to do myself. At least, for one perspective context on the matter. Good analogy.

Scrambles.2604:

No offense, but you both seem to follow the derogatory definition that the OP and I have been discussing and are trying to advocate against. You both have a negative association with “elitists” and “bad behaviors.”

The idea is that you can be an “elitist” without being “bad mannered” and of course you can be “bad mannered” without being “elitist.” The issue is that you don’t seem to differentiate between the two and just lump them in one category—“Elitism.”

I suggest we just use the term “Elitist” in the same way the “N-word” has evolved over time. Dissociate it with it’s negative stereotype and turn it into a term of endearment:

You don’t call me Elitist!! That is our word!!

edit; The last thing i’ll say, is your negative attitude towards “elitists” is just as bad as the attitude of the bad-mannered “elitists” you complain about.

Interesting assumptions there… Perhaps I should have said I was on a “similar” page to lanfear, instead of the same.

As I have said previously, numerous times, “elitism” generally is considered negative in pretty much any societal context with the only exception being those who consider themselves elitists (imagine that ;P).

I also said it can be very useful for getting inside an opponents head.

The interesting part is that we actually are making a distinction with the term “elite” vs “elitist.” But, those who are claiming to be elitists do not make a distinction there while claiming those with a different opinion are not making a distinction within the term elitist. We arent doing it the way you are, and are therefore wrong, correct?

The mental gymnastics are quite intriguing.. Do carry on.

Castaliea.3156:

As for you Tulu I appreciate your input and I do agree that the sword has it’s time when it shines but when I’m running through a group of 30+ foes personal control is a must and the sword just doesn’t cut it. I would like to use some of the off-hand abilities in those situations but continuing to select targets for projectiles is not really an option and the sword drastically limits my control. It has it’s uses and I’m not calling it kittenty, I just calling it circumstantial and trying to point out a hole in design that is really putting me out personally.

I think the main issue is that as a Ranger, we just dont have the best abilities to truly “zerg.” Our best option is actually a trait (piercing arrows), and Barrage (LB 5).

So, what I found was that by being as annoying as possible, I tend to draw a lot of fire. If you build right (not just bunker, as I actually run pretty glassy), you can basically distract the opponents while your team goes to town.

I will say though, without a target, the sword gives unparalleled ability to wade through a zerg (mostly) unharmed. It really takes a lot of practice to get it down though, and sword 3 is not particularly useful in large engagements.

What I do, is I tend to put my target options on “autolock,” which only selects a target while you hold a button down. When you release the key, it untargets. This setting also allows you to deselect your current target by just pressing it. By using this, and selective clicking of opponents, you can really achieve some cool things. Most often, I have no target selected for the first two parts of the auto attack, then I select a target on the opposite side of the zerg for the third part (the leap). Then, rinse and repeat. This allows you to bounce out of melee range and into a different part of the zerg before most can react. Usually…

gennyt.3428:

lordkrall.7241:

Because someone that is actually good have no need to shout about being good?
A good player don’t need to get confirmation from other people to know that they are good.
And people shouting about being good in chat simply looks like kittenholes.

LOL, seriously, this thread could have been closed after this replay. It sums it up just perfectly.

I dont know, I think this thread is taking some interesting detours.

And if you have been on the internet long enough, threads dont tend to get closed after a single reply that subjectively “sums it up.”

Its the journey, not the destination, maaan.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

IMO,

elite
Generally speaking elite players are excellent (good skill, good strategy, willing to help, know mechanics inside and out, etc), and you can tell just by watching them. However, they are also humble, and in general decent people to be around.

elitist
On the other hand ‘elitists’ tend to be jackkittenes that arent worth their weight in kitten, and the ones that are actually good, get blown off anyway because of their attitude. You get so much further when you’re not a kittenhead.

We are on the same page

The bottom line, imo (important part), is that elitism and the elite are not mutually exclusive (as I said.. quite a few times now).

One can be an elitist and completely lacking in all skill. Elite refers directly to the skill level of the player. I would also add that most “elite” players achieve the title through a mass consensus that generally does not involve their own opinion.

So, elite refers to actual skill level. Elitist refers to attitude towards skill level (regardless of presence or absence of said skill). Basically, you can be an elite player without being an elitist, and you can be an elitist without being an elite player.

It is quite interesting that those who are promoting the theme of the OP all tend to have a vastly different idea of what these mean from myself and Lanfear.

edit: I wonder if it is something that is lost in translation? English might be a second/third/etc language for some here.

I just wanted to say that I find the sword to work, for me, much better without a target. The downside is that this requires significantly more effort to get it to do what you want. For some, that may be enough to discard it completely.

For my playstyle, it becomes more and more effective the more people there are.

Overall, I tend to use the greatsword more, because I have ended up liking the animations better, but I find the sword incredibly effective when used properly.

Korrigan.4837:

Good point.

For instance, I made it to 80 on a character with 0 deaths, and also without using the auction house, any crafting (crafting gives easy XP, would be “cheating”), or any crafted item, only self reliant using drops and karma items. The idea came from a guildie based on “Iron Man”.
That’s an interesting challenge. Try it. If you die, you must delete the character and start over at level 1.

Exactly!

My entire point is that most who talk about talent, or ease of play, also trend towards playing the game in the easiest way possible.

While this is perfectly fine for those who are looking for that exact experience, I have found others that get pulled into it who are actually looking for a different experience. On the surface, the playstyles seem the same, but the goal of the playstyles differ. When we find exactly what we are trying to “accomplish” with the games we play, I found that we get a lot more satisfaction out of it. Making the distinction between the two different goals may lead some to having a much, much more satisfying experience in any game they play.

It was my exact experience, and once I figured it out, I am able to find the experience and goals I look towards in pretty much any game I play. It also puts the control in my hands, so the only real limitation is my own lack of imagination.

Scrambles.2604:

Elitism is only perceived as a negative quality to one that has no interest in striving to be “Elite.” The issue is “elitist” players and “regular” players both share and participate in the same level of content, even though they do not strive for the same level of success.

The issue isn’t the mindsets—you’ll never get rid of that. The issue is the level of content is accessible and participated in by two groups that don’t get along very well. And they shouldn’t be expected to get along— because they each play the game for different reasons and get different things out of it.

The only solution (besides altering game content) is to recognize that there are two divergent groups in the community and respect the fact that they play the game for different reasons. You’re not getting denied from a CoF zerker group because you suck, you’re getting denied because the people in that group aren’t just trying to beat the content, but do it the most efficient way possible.

I do not consider “elite” and “elitism” to be synonymous. One can be “elite” without being an elitist. Thats been pretty much my entire point with all of my posts in these types of threads

It was also the point of the post you quoted, but perhaps there is just some miscommunication. Someone doing something in the most efficient way possible may or may not be elite, and they may or may not be elitist.

Rain, I always suggest to newer players on our server to not waste any time on thieves. They are very, very good at getting people to waste time chasing a shadow.

I have to say though, if anyone thinks that thieves are useless in large engagements, WvW, that a permastealth thief cant actually do any damage, or that the class in general is “weak,” they probably need to L2P… These are the most common arguments against the complaints about thieves, and most that I read, all I can think is “you really need to learn to play the thief class.” Ironically, this is usually the meme that gets parroted towards those who know the class is extremely, extremely strong.

In the end, I suppose they are just yelling at themselves. I heard a quote from someone once; “That which we speak most fervently tends to be directed towards ourselves.” Maybe applicable, maybe not.

Just to add a few more of my own cents, since I find these kind of topics quite interesting (and entertaining).

As we all know, there are a lot of different playstyles that collide in a massive multiplayer game. Some people actively seek challenge, others want the game to actively challenge them, some want their achievements seen by others, and some will even downplay their own achievements to catch their opponent off guard.

The last part of that is one of the more interesting things. People who claim to have great skill are constantly challenged. However, the inverse is simply accepted. Meaning, if someone says they are a horrible player, no one challenges that. This leads me to believe that a large part of it is tied to self worth on all sides of the equation.

One who brags about skill is also one who likely converses about how easy everything is. It may seem obvious, but the implications are a bit more complex. It indicates a playstyle, as I have said a few times now, that is not interested in real challenge (i.e. “tying your hands behind your back” is considered laughable) but in playing a game that satisfies the need to feel legendary. In my opinion, this is a completely acceptable play style. Though, I think it would be beneficial to many to clarify this for themselves, as the claim is always that they are seeking more challenging content (which may not necessarily be the case). By understanding our own goals in our games, we can start to really pursue them as well as find the games that fit our needs best.

The issue comes in when trying to “convert” others, and that goes for any playstyle and just life in general. What is “correct” for one may not be “correct” for another.

I would strongly suggest though, to those who really are looking for challenge and not emotional ROI, that this can be created for yourself in a myriad of ways. While this playstyle is not fitting for some, others will find great satisfaction in it that might not be pursued for various different reasons. The reason I mention this repeatedly is it is easy to see someone with a similar playstyle, and apply it to our own. However, the end result is more pertinent. If you are looking for emotional verification from a game, then making everything as easy as possible is probably the best way to go. However, if one is actually looking for challenge, then that can be found very, very easily with a bit of work on our part. I think the issue is that it is a similar playstyle, but with two different goals and this means the lines frequently become crossed which leads to a bit of confusion.

Elitism is not a play style, imo, but a mind set. Generally, I find it to be a negative one though it can be used effectively to get inside someones head.

BlazeQ.1095:

hyjaxxx.1584:

No Problemo Gentlemen. I but live to serve the comical whims of The Dark Haven Masses.

And Remember Dark Haven is Now Serving the Following items on reset Nights to all of our foes, Free of charge.

I didn’t get mine this last reset. I did however get a great deal of loot bags. Maybe you forgot to bring them to the NSP borderlands? or Waited until I left?

I can only guess the intent was to have you come down with severe scurvy.

Its a truly genius and insidious plan. kitten ed if you do, kitten ed if you dont.

Im male, but I just wanted to say all it takes is something similar to this thread to find out that gamer girls really arent that scarce anymore.

They may not necessarily make themselves known, at least until they feel comfortable, but out of the.. many guilds I have led in other games, it seems that the aforementioned 60/40 split is about right (and maybe even conservative).

Just gotta throw it out there to get others to come forward, strength in numbers and all that.

Miss Firesss.3704:

Zhaiarhea. Hah! AHAHA! HAAAAAAAAA! Oh Jax, thanks for my afternoon laugh!

It is NO LAUGHING MATTER, let me assure you of that.

:(

ArchonWing.9480:

PvF isn’t Gw2, after all.

I dont know about that…

I would propose that PvF is an integral part to ANY modern MMO.

Similarly to another thread, I wanted to point out that “elitism” and “skill” are not necessarily correlated.

The only thing that is consistent is their own perception of their skill, and desire to be recognized by other players. So, their playstyle revolves around satisfying this. Not good or bad, etc, just how it is.

It isnt so much a concern about actual skill, but perception of skill. Some elitists are excellent at what they are doing, some are terrible. The perception is all that matters, and every experience will be biased through perspective to confirm the initial foundation of thought. They also tend to attempt to confirm this through means that are perceived to let other players know that the individual is “awesome.” Skill is not relevant, only perception.

Really, my only thing is, “elitist” tends to be mutually exclusive with “I suck at dealing with other people.” If anything needed to be worked on, I would say that is it. The rest is just personal preference, perhaps tinged with a bit of egotism (which can be said for darn near everyone, just different contexts).

I dont know…

If we were able to blast finish our own healing spring along with our leaps.. I think our bunker builds would turn into completely OP beasts from Hades.

It actually seems reasonable to me. It seems like every class needs another for them to see their full potential, and its something I have really been putting effort into understanding the depths of it as per this game specifically.

Jscull.2514:

@tuluum

I agree man. Problem is, this game has not produced very many small skilled groups from the ground up. This game promotes Zerg to learn, and then continue Zerging through your pvp experience. Don’t graduate off the Zerg ladder to the next tier, stay here as long as you can like billy Madison. It’s sad, because people who already graduated don’t have very many people to fight competitively in the open world system.

Gw2 is literally simplified to 2 forms of play: 1) capture the flag
2) when you lose to a team, just bring more people of equal or similar skill level and you can guarantee a win

While I am of the mind that the game is what we, the player, make of it.. I certainly cant deny that is the case.

Before release, I was actually thinking that they were going to use WvW, or a close variant, for the Esports thing. It actually got me pretty excited, since I am quite bored of node capping at this point. I thought “Wow! Anet is really doing something different, I think they might be on to something with this! Its going to almost be like multiplayer chess!” Obviously, I found out the story was quite different and I should have done more research! Still would have bought and played it, but it was definitely a disappointment.

I used to put a lot of effort into “training” type things, but eventually, people started to respond to me with “why bother?” So, even if I view at as the “pinnacle” to have a very large, but organized group.. it isnt very feasible to say the least. Most people at this point dont see any need to organize. When they get routed by a semi-organized group, blame gets shifted everywhere.

Maybe I am just too old school for it, lol. I have hope though, whatever that might mean.

And to make it on topic, they are just two different game modes. Both will have excellent players and both will have terrible players. There is no separation between the two in WvW though, and that means you will come across ALL skill levels with more frequency.

Eladriel.7295:

Turgut.4397:

100% agree with the OP. The game has not progressed into a relaxed gaming environment. It’s just become a ‘second job.’

I REALLY hope Anet/NCsoft get their acts together, because Neverwinter is looking pretty good right now.

Neverwinter is very disappointing and doesn’t have the free roaming as gw2 has.. And I hate the fact I have to look at my character like a top down view, not counting other things I have noticed which I am not going to go into… I had 2 characters, but deleted one of them.. Why have two when I won’t be playing it enough to even make it worth while to have two. It’s a mediocre game to spend my boring times in, but it is not one that I would spend hours, days or weeks at a time in.

Plus, its a Perfect World game. For many, that is all they need to hear. Combat is pretty fun, though I dont know what you mean with the top down view.

Either way, GW2 isnt the only game out there. And, it has the benefit of being open to the player coming back whenever they please. Never hurts to try out the competition.

Kryptonite.9376:

Via CoF p1. I know many of you are saying, well yeah you have to spend the money, but technically you don’t be cause dungeon is so broken.

All crafts cost about 60g total, running cof p1 grants about 4g/hour if you’re doing it leisurely. Meaning in 15-20 hours you can farm enough gold back, so unless you can level 1-80 in under 15-20 hours which is superhuman, there’s no reason to be re-exploring the open world on an alt since it’s no fun and zones are all dead. If you work your way up to level 10 at least, or 20, you can cut the costs of it dramatically by excluding one of the more expensive 10g+ professions out as well.

Did you factor in the time it takes to actually do the crafting?

I still think it may be a bit faster. It certainly is easier on the keyboard.. but, it might not be as large of a discrepancy as JUST the time it takes to earn the gold. Also have to factor in time used to purchase items, organizing inventory, and the actual crafting. Its not much, but over such a large sample, it adds up.

I got my last character to 80 in… 40 hours or so. No crafting. Could have gone a bit faster, but overall, it was a good run to 80 with nice xp trains in wvw along with doing personal story (good xp in general) and random hearts (not too many).

melodey.4652:

I was too busy lagging myself into a lootbag.

That is literally what happens too.

The best case scenario is you “unlag lock” long enough to see yourself in downed state. A lot of the times though, you just came back to a stake already planted, lol. My usual strategy is just run into the front lines, quite literally mash every button at my disposal, and then just HOPE one of them goes off. Hopefully (on my guard) I luck out and it is some type of ward or reflection.

FWIW, I wasnt online yesterday for the events you mentioned. What I said wasnt referring to whatever happened, but I can understand the frustration of going through something like that only to come on the board to a post like I made. Apologies for that. Makes more sense now too.

@Jscull;

I cant necessarily disagree with most of what you say. I would define “elite” players in pretty much the same way.

Really, my only point was that such a thing can exist regardless of group size, but is shaped by a few factors that both of us have mentioned. The two most important, imo, are the “safety in numbers” idea, and the difficulty in maintaining organization in larger and larger groups.

I would actually argue that an elite team of 50 is perhaps even more skilled than an elite team of 5. Even if their individual skills levels are equal, actually coordinating with that many people takes some real effort. To me, it basically turns into work. However, the possibilities of having, say, 10 mesmers with portals opens up an entire different world of play. Even if they are just used for kiting and immediately gaining terrain advantage, the larger group has more possible strategies and tactics at their disposal. Organizing and pulling all of this off is exponentially more difficult though.

So, I think what happens is players of all skill levels go towards the most feasible option for their style of play. Meaning, those who are new/lack in skill will gravitate towards large groups because it is a less frustrating opportunity to learn. They avoid small group play because they still have more to learn. Those who have honed their skills to be competent in small groups gravitate towards that because it makes individual contribution feel VASTLY more meaningful. They avoid organized large group play because there is still more to learn.

For me, the pinnacle of “elite” play comes into view when a team of 50 is able to maintain the small organizational awareness of a small group, but is able to utilize the great opportunities afforded with more players while minimizing the difficulty inherent in having that many people.

In past games, I have found the easiest way to approach it is to actually have the small teams of “x” number play as they usually do, but to slowly start to work in other small teams into the same battlefield. This still retains the small group play, with few added complications. The key is to have capable leaders of each team, and then one capable strategist at the helm of all of the small team movements (much like we see in real armed forces).

I think it is a mid-way compromise until the small teams start to adapt to having so many more strategies at their disposal, while still retaining the comfort of a familiar playstyle.

Honestly, I dont think we are really saying things that are that different. The difficulty that is innate in large group organization, as well as there being safety in numbers, means that a large group will very likely be less competent individually than a small group, but only in practice. In theory, the most difficult way to play is also the most effective and that is large, or very large, organized group play. Its probably the rarest thing to see in any game, so it is usually a safe assumption that the large group is not as organized as a smaller group. My only point of contention was that a large group is not inherently lacking in skill because of its size, its other factors that shape that perception.

Hope that made sense Thanks for the coherent and respectful conversation. Things like this arent supposed to take place on the interwebz, dontchyaknow?

Miss Firesss.3704:

Last night, for DH in EB, was a cluster.

We look out, to see a sea of red (SF). I have never seen so many of you guys/gals at once! We tried going out a couple times, only to get wiped, since we didn’t have the numbers you all did.

Now, I know there was a que to get in, but man, I have no idea where the rest of DH was. :/ They must have been running around all over the map, while SF was extremely organized.

I ended up leaving EB because it’s impossible to survive a zerg while running 4 fps. Might as well get out of there and let someone else with better fps try helping out.

I believe that some of our commanders are running without tags frequently to limit information that may be relayed to other servers.

When SF really gets going, they are a force to be reckoned with. They seem to love a straight charge through opposing forces. It has counters, but regardless, it is extremely effective with a large group.

I experience the same thing as you though. If there is a large group from any server in approximately the same spot, the entire map lags out for me. I used to be able to press “1” at least, but that has changed. I LOVE those large fights too, so its too bad the lag gets so awful. Even at the lowest possible graphics settings, it becomes unplayable. I remember at release, that I could play on the highest settings with minimal issue. However, as the game aged, these performance issues have gotten worse and worse. Oddly, they improved for a short time when culling was removed, but are now worse than ever.

I think some people have zero issues though (at least that is what is claimed), which I find rather interesting.

Flerch.4817:

And in today’s edition of forum wars, we have DH vs ….DH? Wtf?

Epic, right?

Since we dont have duels in game, this is our only option. :\

Mepheles.2087:

We’re not stupid, you know.

Well, I am.. Just a little though.

melodey.4652:

Less passive aggressive forum posts, more legitimate attempts at helping us out. I’ve already discussed this with you months ago. Yet you are not interested in a commander tag, joining any WvW guild, or coming onto DH public TS. You have a wealth of contacts at your disposal. Mentioning tactics in say chat are good and all, but you there are steps available to you to fulfill improving our server without making these forum posts on a weekly basis. So good luck Tuluum, and send me a PM if you want to work with my guild to implement any of your ideas.

I did, I even asked several members of Abys for an invite (including you). :P I initially wasnt particularly interested, because of the foundation I was attempting to build.

That said, I have tried to make it clear I am attempting to establish a system and foundation that is accessible by anyone logging into the game. While VOIP is certainly the best option, foregoing other educational opportunities and communication methods is exclusionary to those who do not wish to participate in third party means to play their game. I have been learning so much from trying to attempt this, that I have been enjoying it immensely. Eventually the master plan will be put into action! Mwahahahaha

To be blunt, I mention these things as humorous, and not as an attack. I think everyone has experienced it to some degree, and its funny! Also note the constant compliments I have given to our server both in-game and in the forums. We are improving, undoubtedly, and I admire our entire server for doing so. I do not take games seriously, and as such, it might be better to look at what might be perceived as anger and discontent as humor.

I dont expect to be heard, especially since I constantly switch characters! Think of it like someone who climbed down a well and is now complaining about the lack of space. :P

TL;DR
I am trying out something new, that attempts to include everyone who has purchased the game equally. Mostly, I am doing this through in-game PM to anyone I see struggling a bit. I havent worked out the tidbits of implementation on a server wide scale, but I will get there as time allows.

I really like Bandicam personally!

Its free, and doesnt have some of the restrictions other free recording software has.

I do not think it will set off bot detection software, but cant make a guarantee other than quite a few people use this type of software with no issue.

Crawford.4135:

I understand where you’re coming from and what you’re saying. The problem is we have caught these same guild members using WP hacking several times. Sadly we are fighting the same guild again this week. Just prior we caught one of their guild members using a speed hack. He WP to a WP that was contested and speed hacked past all of us. We had killed the player approx 1min before we saw him again. His travel would have been 10min for him to reach us if he had legitimately walked back to us according to the map contested WP’s.

Many of us witnessed this, not just me. We all reported it. His guild has been one of the most suspicious guilds we have witnessed in the game. This guy was clearly hacking/cheating.

Speed hacks are very easily identified, and they are definitely not uncommon to see. So, thats one thing.

The WP though, just judging from the fact you said you contested it for 15 minutes straight, leads me to believe that you have correlated a speed hackers behavior to mean that everything you dont understand is a “hack.” I definitely dont intend that in a mean way, so please dont take it that way!

Like all of us are saying, you can WP in to a contested keep every three minutes. The only exception to this is when things lag out. Otherwise, it is something everyone can do, and is even utilized by organized groups.

The fact it was a guild leads me to believe that they just had someone communicating the countdown through chat. The speedhacker should definitely be reported. But, just because you said you contested a keep for 15 minutes straight does lead me to believe you dont understand the mechanics behind it. Now, whether they are intended to work that way or not will need to be clarified by Anet. But, given how easy it is to contest a keep/garri/etc, it doesnt seem unreasonable that being able to WP into a place every three minutes is accepted.

Crawford.4135:

WP exploitation is quite common. We were inside the inner walls of Bay. The WP was contested for well over 15min. As we were 50% on The Lord the guild WP’ed inside and wiped the entire group. This is a know exploit, google it if you wish to read more on the details, I will not go into details on these forums.

More than 40 of us saw what happened, we all knew the WP was contested for a very long time -approx. 15min contested.

Every three minutes, that WP becomes uncontested for a short window of time. This can change depending on lag, and things like that, but every three minutes the DE runs its course and the WP will be open for a short window. This is every. single. time. the “Defend” dynamic event finishes.

I can see how this may be seen as an exploit to those who are not familiar with the game.

@Snowreap; It appears great minds think alike :P You brought up something important though, it will never appear as uncontested to the attackers. Every enemy WP is perma-contested, including spawn points. Obviously, that does not mean they are contested for the server who owns those.

Zikory.6871:

Crawford.4135:

VOLKON.1290:

About the way points, you sure that wasn’t done during that small window when the points tick over and you have a couple seconds to port?

Please read what I said and you will clearly see that was not the case. More than 40 players witnessed it.

You didn’t state anything to answer his question in your statement…If you were not on inner or in the lords room, you can not confirm they were streaming in the WP while it was contested. For all you know they mass ported when the small window came up (which is very common to happen) and the commander had people hang back to hide there numbers. (which is also very common)

I’m not saying it didn’t happen, I want to say that I have seen it once before but it was only a few at a time of a short period of time. (after the mass port in during the uncontested window) So it could have been lag or culling for me.

At least on our server, we even give a countdown to a contested keep for the window of opportunity. Its really, really common. I know that pretty much every server we have faced does the same.

That said, the exploits, hacks, etc seem to have declined overall in my experience. They are still ever-present, but I think they were much, much more common around the time that we had orbs. Perhaps it was also just that it was more apparent, but I feel like less people are doing this sort of thing.

Anyway, WP into a contested keep when it comes off CD and right before it becomes contested again is a very common strategy. OP, what you wrote doesnt actually address this to anyone who is experienced with the mechanics. It sounds like what you describe is a pretty common thing, and not an exploit. Reporting such actions may not get the results you want…

Jscull.2514:

Im not talking about satisfaction levels or fun….fact is that if there were MORE SKILL INVOLVED in playing wvw….you would see groups of less than the 15-20+. Skilled players that run in 10+ do so because there are 50 mans running around. If skill were more apparent in daily world vs world play, there wouldn’t be giant zergs as virtually the ONLY form of player vs player combat.

Could you explain your logic on this a bit more? It makes zero sense to me.

Ill explain how I see what you are saying. I agree that there is generally safety in numbers, and that less skilled players will be drawn to larger groups. That said, if a group of 20 “elite” players comes up a group of “50” elite players.. there is really only one way that is going to end if skill is completely equal across the board.

As a leader, it actually takes significantly more skill to properly lead more people, and it is not a linear progression. It is more difficult to get a group of 50 people of “elite” status, that can also play well as a team, than it is to get a group of 20 to do the same. Meaning, the existence of said larger groups will be less likely simply because of numbers and percentages.

So, in short, skill does not equate to group size directly. Though, I will take a wild guess that you only do small group play? If so, then it seems probable to me thakittens just bias confirmation based on faulty assumptions of observed experience in the game.

Group size and skill are not directly related, though they do have an indirect relationship. Regardless, a skilled group of 20 will always be overpowered by an equally skilled group of 50 simply because of the numbers involved. The only difference is thakittens easier to get a small group of skilled players than it is to get a large group. That, in and of itself, may lead one to believe that somehow skill is not present when a large group is playing together. It is based on a presumably false premise though.

It sounds like you propose that a large group/zerg is devoid of skill inherently, instead of as a matter of consequence and probability. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong!

In the end, I dont care that much to be honest. But, spurring these kind of conversations forward is way, way too much fun for me!

RyuDragnier.9476:

Way I’d think of staff working is AoE skills, all somewhat similar to Healing Spring in terms of how they use nature.

Exactly how I see it too.

I kind of envision it like a.. “rangerfied” version of the guardian staff.

I just dont see a rifle filling any purpose that isnt already filled with the weapons we have access to (at least from the suggestions of those who are in favor of the idea), whereas a staff (properly implemented, of course) could actually fill a niche that does not currently exist. In all honesty, it seems like the proponents of the ranger rifle would be just as happy if they could put a rifle skin on their bow, since they are doing exactly the same thing.

Instead of implementing a rifle, I think a better investment from Anets end would be to actually fix some of the issues with longbow.

With the bunker possibilities of the ranger, I think a staff support build would be quite a nice change of pace from other set ups. We dont have much in terms of support builds, and I think it might actually address some of the issues with the ranger class. A staff support ranger using support pets (like the red moa) could actually be a boon in dungeons and general group play, as it reduces the need for the pet to.. uh.. die.

Jscull.2514:

Which brings me back to my original point, “More skillful players in general will rely less on masses (subsuming them)”

And in GW2, thats not the case for the most part.

I would only consider myself “above average,” which will automatically mean my opinion is dismissed by those who consider themselves “elite.”

Either way, I get just as much satisfaction from solo roaming as I do running in a semi-organized zerg. Meaning, no voip or anything like that, just people who are mostly able to use combo fields without overlapping, stick together, interrupt heals, etc etc.

Overall though, I fail to see how playing against other players in one arena could yield a perspective where they are somehow significantly better across the board than another arena that has more dynamics and more possibilities. The actual skills themselves are pretty much the same in function.

The biggest difference is that organizing larger and larger groups of people becomes exponentially more difficult as the numbers of players in a given group rises.

Only thing I can think is thakittens confirmation bias (from both sides), all sustained by the fact that WvW inherently has more players and the higher likelihood of coming across someone who is new.

I would say the percentage of skilled vs new is the same, overall, in both T/SPvP and WvW. It just happens on a much larger, much less insular scale in WvW, which directly leads into coming across more people who do not know what they are doing.

Someone who takes a quick glance at either S/TPvP and dubveedub will likely come to the conclusion that one is somehow less skilled than the other.

Its quite funny either way!

Grimno.6172:

So tonight, I’ve relized DH has some major issues that I think is what is causing us to not rank up in tiers.

Obliviousness. I have watched time and time again, things happening that goes completely unnoticed, despite multiple people being in that area, or they do see them, and don’t say a thing about it. When we had NSP’s keep last week, I noticed as I was firing treb shots at Ogres, no one shooting at Vel saw the Treb being built clear as day on the hill, and it got up and started hitting our trebs. I had to call it out then we got it Then not even 10 minutes later, NOONE noticed one of the outter walls on the west side were destroyed completely! (Mind you, we were at “15 minute + Line to get into WvW” population). I had to call THAT out and managed to get the wall up and destroy their treb just in time to block the zerg. But then right AFTER, NOONE heard the “banging” sound of a door being hit, nor noticed the 6+ golems bursting through the water gate and overran us. Also noticed despite having 5 guys at the south stonemist wall just now, none of them said “Hey guys. SF is building catapults and arrow carts at the south of SM, oh and two of our walls are now at 70% HP and dropping!” or anything along those lines. I had to call it out, again! THEN we had a response…. when the wall was at 10%. There was also the time a little bit before that NSP was at the western gate and no one said anything! Noone calls anything out, or don’t even notice it happening…

I have never seen people so, oblivious to these things! God only knows how many times I see something get swords showing it’s under attack and I ask “Anyone got eyes on (blank)” when I KNOW there are people there, and then I get zero response, and I have to run over there myself just to see what’s up.

flails it’s ridiculous!!!

Hey, at least people responded (mostly) when you actually said something! I have been trying to address core issues in our play since HNN (if anyone remembers that), and have been ignored since that time as well! :P Some people have realized I know what I am talking about, and that the wierd guy constantly calling for flanks in certain directions may know what hes talking about, and isnt just obsessed with flanking, lol. So, I just throw some stuff out there every now and again. I dont expect a whole lot anymore, and just have some good ol fun.

“Commander X, flank to the SE at 2k range?”
Commander and zerg charges straight in and gets wiped

I think there is a conspiracy against me on DH. Subterfuge and deception with no cookie compensation. Tin foil hat clown does not approve.

<| :O (

A lot of this sounds like burn out to me. Something which every single gamer out there experiences at some point. I tend to find it in every game I play. There will just be a point where I am.. done.

What has kept me in this game specifically is without a doubt WvW (or dubveedub to the initiated :P ). If I was not playing that, I dont think I would still be playing this game, at least not on any sort of consistent basis. I am just not that interested in other parts of the game, except as a means to an end (getting a new character to level 80 to better dubveedub, of course!).

That said, I love WvW and the stark contrasts of experience that it can provide.

Chopps.5047:

Lol it’s not my idea. I think I heard about it from Durzlla, but thanks.

Ok.

Go, go gadget Durzlla!