Guild Wars 2

spoj.9672:

Well its pretty simple. Dont go overboard with those types of rewards? Or add them in with alternative methods of aquisition? Or make them tradeable?

Sure it’s a balance. It’s not always done right. If the rewards are sellable on the trading post, I’d actually have a lot less problems with it. But my point is it has to be handled very carefully. It’s not just a matter of putting in challenging content. There are other ramifications that other people seem not to consider. How that challenging content is put in will decide how many casual people are disenfranchised by it.

Jerus.4350:

Vayne.8563:

Jerus.4350:

It can and does Vayne, but on the flip side, it can also strengthen a community.

It is all in the way the community handles it.

It’s when you have conflicting goals that you create a situation where the toxicity arises. That’s why I’ve seen more toxicity in Silverwastes than I have in any dungeon I’ve done. “kitten it south, you all suck!” is a pretty common response when they’re overloaded with people and fail. But… that’s easy content and you still have toxicity.

Instances can allow people to play with only those they want to, that’s a good thing imo.

In many games the best rewards are locked into instances. That means that people who want those rewards have to brave those instances. The people who are “good” at those games, band together and farm those instances. The other people try to get into groups, and that’s where the conflict starts.

Now, if you have say 20% of players who love hard content, 20% of the players will be satisfied with that situation . 80% will be broken into two groups. Those who never do it and those who do it grudgingly even though they don’t enjoy it.

Of the groups who don’t do it, that group will be broken up into two groups, those who don’t care about the rewards and those who are frustrated that they’ll never see them. So you have a potential to kitten off a much larger percentage of the player base than you’re helping.

On top of that, the hard content crowd almost always wants if not better, at least exclusive rewards.

So you end up with some people who are really happy and some who are disenfranchised. I’ll probably do the content and not enjoy it. Enough of that and I’ll stop enjoying the game, which is what happens in every other MMO I’ve played to do.

I do enough stuff for rewards I don’t enjoy, I think why am I playing this game to not enjoy it, and I walk away. Happened with Rift, WoW, Lotro, Aion and others.

This game I like. But if exclusive rewards, too many of them, are locked behind content I’m not enjoying, I can see myself walking away from here too.

One of the things I like about this game is that I can get most rewards doing most things. Not all, but most. I’d sort of hope that would stay the same.

Good thing GW2 isn’t most games.

Your entire argument here hinges on the idea of a change in BiS gear, that’d be downright stupid for ANet to do. It’s one of the best things they’ve done keeping the gear treadmill under control and adding better than ascended would be silly.

However, of course people want explusive rewards. But, why is that bad? PVP gets it with balthazar back/glorioius sets, WvW with it’s hero weapons, Dungeons/pvp share gear/weapon styles. Fractals have their weapons. Open world stuff has various things including Luminescent for SW. I don’t see why this wouldn’t get something exclusive too, but just like the other things, do it or don’t it’s up to you. I’m not a big fan of PVP so I only have one glorious piece, couldn’t get myself to finish farming it. I don’t really love the luminescent stuff but I also found most of the achievements to be more annoying than fun or challenging, so I haven’t completed that. But it was my choice and I love that I get to have it even if I choose to ignore it.

But again, you’re implying that ANet would not only add raids but also change their whole stance on gear…

You need to read my argument again. I didn’t say BIS gear. I said rewards. Let’s pretend Anet puts the coolest mini or coolest tonic in a raid. It’s possible. A cool outfit. A cool skin. Now, if there becomes enough of those things that people can’t get, people will feel disenfranchised. That situation doesn’t exist now.

But you start adding raids, and you’ll find the raid crowd will demand more rewards for the greater risk. We’ve seen it in every raid thread around. We are working harder. This is harder content. We want better rewards.

So far the game hasn’t worked much like that. There are still rewards I want that I haven’t gotten, because I don’t like the content.

But this isn’t about BIS gear. It’s about unique rewards. Again, just from my experience in other games, it creates haves and have nots. There’s a lot less of that in this game, so far.

Jerus.4350:

It can and does Vayne, but on the flip side, it can also strengthen a community.

It is all in the way the community handles it.

It’s when you have conflicting goals that you create a situation where the toxicity arises. That’s why I’ve seen more toxicity in Silverwastes than I have in any dungeon I’ve done. “kitten it south, you all suck!” is a pretty common response when they’re overloaded with people and fail. But… that’s easy content and you still have toxicity.

Instances can allow people to play with only those they want to, that’s a good thing imo.

In many games the best rewards are locked into instances. That means that people who want those rewards have to brave those instances. The people who are “good” at those games, band together and farm those instances. The other people try to get into groups, and that’s where the conflict starts.

Now, if you have say 20% of players who love hard content, 20% of the players will be satisfied with that situation . 80% will be broken into two groups. Those who never do it and those who do it grudgingly even though they don’t enjoy it.

Of the groups who don’t do it, that group will be broken up into two groups, those who don’t care about the rewards and those who are frustrated that they’ll never see them. So you have a potential to kitten off a much larger percentage of the player base than you’re helping.

On top of that, the hard content crowd almost always wants if not better, at least exclusive rewards.

So you end up with some people who are really happy and some who are disenfranchised. I’ll probably do the content and not enjoy it. Enough of that and I’ll stop enjoying the game, which is what happens in every other MMO I’ve played to do.

I do enough stuff for rewards I don’t enjoy, I think why am I playing this game to not enjoy it, and I walk away. Happened with Rift, WoW, Lotro, Aion and others.

This game I like. But if exclusive rewards, too many of them, are locked behind content I’m not enjoying, I can see myself walking away from here too.

One of the things I like about this game is that I can get most rewards doing most things. Not all, but most. I’d sort of hope that would stay the same.

Fenrir.3609:

Vayne.8563:

I understand all the advantages that instances have. But a lot of people in favor of instances don’t seem to understand the disadvantages, or they deny them when other people point them out.

Having played many games centered around instances, I think I know some of the problems they cause. You can even see some of them here. The divide between “elitist” speed runners and casuals. The abuse of people who aren’t quite as efficient because the people they’re running with are so pro. The exclusion of certain professions from runs altogether.

That stuff doesn’t happen in the open world. It’s an equalizer. It allows people to play what they want, not in the most efficient manner. And you know, not all people see an RPG is as a system that has to be beat.

So if you lock the challenging content away in instances that are so hard you need specific builds to beat them, as was sometimes the case in Guild Wars 1, you end up with people demanding certain builds and you have a more toxic community in general. You may not see this as a problem but I do.

Even in the open world, harder content can cause tensions but no one can stop you from participating. That’s a big thing to some people.

So as much as I’d like to see forms of content that are challenging in the open world, I don’t want to see this stuff locked away instances so a small percentage of gamers can do harder content, particularly if that harder content rewards them in such a way that people who don’t want to do it are pressured to do it for those rewards.

That’s how it works in most games and I’ve always thought it sucked.

Good lord please tell me you are joking.

Nope, I’m not joking. In every single game I’ve played with instances as a major part of the game, the community sucked pretty badly. The exception was Guild Wars 1, which wasn’t an MMO at all, and the entire game was instanced.

Now, you may not believe that the community devolves as the content gets harder, and that’s okay with me.

I believe it does.

maddoctor.2738:

Vayne.8563:

maddoctor.2738:

maha.7902:

open world content will pretty much only ever pose organisational challenges rather than challenging the individual skill of a player.

And this is the main reason we get all these discussions about challenging content. Those who ask for challenging content want that content to challenge their individual skills, unfortunately there is no event out there currently that does that.

The only event that even came close to challenge the individual skill of most players involved in it was the Marionette during the platform phase, because <drum roll> it split the big blob in dungeon-sized groups.

SW, VW, DT, TT, Tequatl do not challenge the individual skill of any player. They are just organisational challenges, once players learn to follow orders and organize they are doable in whites and blues because they are hardly any challenge on the skill-level of those participating.

So let’s repeat this, and I hope everyone understand it, when players are asking for challenging content, they mean content that is challenging to the individual, not organisational challenges. And as I say all the time on these types of threads, challenging content = content that challenges EVERYONE (or close to everyone) of those participating.

As I said, Liadri is in the open world and most people did consider that challenging. There are ways to put challenges for single people in the open world.

Liadri is in the open world but not a part of an open world encounter. If she was players would just afk zerg her to death.

I agree that there are ways to put challenges for single people (or small parties) in the open world that’s why I mentioned the only real open world that did that was the Marionette. I can imagine some content similar to that, that teleport players on a platform, each one facing Liadri alone. That would be fun :P

The problem with that type of event though is the randomness. There is no control over who you will end up with on a platform, and worse, if one of such platforms fails, the whole event suffers. I think they were going with something Marionette-styled for the Vinewrath, but changed it to regular blob content because of all the problems of the Marionette style.

My ultimate solution, the one that I’m posting on all similar threads, is to make them guild events (guild missions?) and allow only members of that guild to do the “instanced” part. So in the Marionette example, only pre-made small parties would fight on the platforms, while the random blob would only fight the lane defense part.

Solves the problems of the Marionette fight, makes the event challenging for those who want a real challenge (make some “platforms” very hard, like Liadri or Lupicus hard, keep others very easy so all skill levels can’t play etc), requires tactics, team / party building (some bosses might be like the Husk and require conditions, others might need lots of reflects etc), coordination, organization, individual player skill, gives guilds something good to strive for, creates content for the entire world to experience (part of it at least), stays completely true to the open world part of the game, integrates perfectly with the open world event structure of the game, integrates well with a current reward system (guild missions)

Potential Problems and answers:
People that are not with the activating guild wont’ get max rewards for participating. However, this is true for ALL Guild Missions, if your guild didn’t activate it, you won’t get merits, so that’s not a big deal.

People that are not with the activating guild won’t see the whole event, they will miss the platform parts. For this to be solved, allow guild leaders / officers to temporarily enlist the help of others. An easy way to do this, is to allow players in a party with a guild member to acquire full rewards from the event, that way players that belong to small guilds, guildless people or those whose guilds are mostly WvW, PvP oriented, can join in the fun, get the FULL rewards, and experience the hardest fights.

Did I miss something? Is there any problem I didn’t think of? Discuss.
I see it as combining the benefits of instanced + open world content all at once.

I actually agree with your solution of having stuff that has a guild component and an open world component. I’m interested to see what Anet has come up with for HoT though. Maybe it’s something we haven’t thought of.

James Quall.6029:

I’m having a really hard time understanding what the hell you’re actually trying to say. You’re not against them making content for individuals or small groups, but it just can’t be in a separate instance because that isn’t the game’s “focus”, which you interpreted from the grandiloquent way they describe the game world?

Earlier I said why do we have to choose between open world and dungeons. I think there should be both, and I never disagreed or implied that they can’t make challenging content in the open world. So it mystifies me that you’re hammering home some counter to a point I never made.

I’m answering what you said directly about Liadri, but I’m also talking in the thread as a whole, not just talking to you. I quoted you in the last post, because I was specifically responding to you.

I understand all the advantages that instances have. But a lot of people in favor of instances don’t seem to understand the disadvantages, or they deny them when other people point them out.

Having played many games centered around instances, I think I know some of the problems they cause. You can even see some of them here. The divide between “elitist” speed runners and casuals. The abuse of people who aren’t quite as efficient because the people they’re running with are so pro. The exclusion of certain professions from runs altogether.

That stuff doesn’t happen in the open world. It’s an equalizer. It allows people to play what they want, not in the most efficient manner. And you know, not all people see an RPG is as a system that has to be beat.

So if you lock the challenging content away in instances that are so hard you need specific builds to beat them, as was sometimes the case in Guild Wars 1, you end up with people demanding certain builds and you have a more toxic community in general. You may not see this as a problem but I do.

Even in the open world, harder content can cause tensions but no one can stop you from participating. That’s a big thing to some people.

So as much as I’d like to see forms of content that are challenging in the open world, I don’t want to see this stuff locked away instances so a small percentage of gamers can do harder content, particularly if that harder content rewards them in such a way that people who don’t want to do it are pressured to do it for those rewards.

That’s how it works in most games and I’ve always thought it sucked.

James Quall.6029:

Liadri would’ve been better as an instanced fight because then you wouldn’t have to wait in line to fight her. Pointing out that it didn’t technically happen in an instance is really pedantic anyways. The discussion between open world and instanced content is really about if it’s restricted to a small number of players or an unrestricted number of players, and Liadri was obviously a restricted fight.

But in a lot of ways, the Marionette was a restricted fight too. There are ways to make challenges in the open world. You can call it pendantic if you like, but it doesn’t change the truth of what I’m saying.

Coulter.2315:

I generally just play 1 character so I enjoyed the idea of “go out and find traits” BUT it made leveling alts just a bore with lack of access to fun/useful traits (even going for them involved running to the other side of the world to find the event required was 2hrs from starting or something like that).

I think the base level traits might be best with unlock through skill points but maybe the elite specs done through exploration? Dunno I like bits of both but I really felt annoyed when I was low level without access to all the WPs and traitless in the current system.

Yeah it’s not as much fun when you have 25 level 80s. lol

spoj.9672:

Liadri is basically an instance….

Theres no difference to being in the same map but only your party can access an encounter and an actual party instance. Apart from one has the possible issue of lag. Surely the option with less lag issues and freedom to use larger areas and cutscenes is a better idea.

Just an example of how skill can be used. What if it was part of a challenge of some kind, where individuals had to progress through something to get further. People who say it can’t be done are determined for it not to be done, because they see only instances.

maddoctor.2738:

maha.7902:

open world content will pretty much only ever pose organisational challenges rather than challenging the individual skill of a player.

And this is the main reason we get all these discussions about challenging content. Those who ask for challenging content want that content to challenge their individual skills, unfortunately there is no event out there currently that does that.

The only event that even came close to challenge the individual skill of most players involved in it was the Marionette during the platform phase, because <drum roll> it split the big blob in dungeon-sized groups.

SW, VW, DT, TT, Tequatl do not challenge the individual skill of any player. They are just organisational challenges, once players learn to follow orders and organize they are doable in whites and blues because they are hardly any challenge on the skill-level of those participating.

So let’s repeat this, and I hope everyone understand it, when players are asking for challenging content, they mean content that is challenging to the individual, not organisational challenges. And as I say all the time on these types of threads, challenging content = content that challenges EVERYONE (or close to everyone) of those participating.

As I said, Liadri is in the open world and most people did consider that challenging. There are ways to put challenges for single people in the open world.

I think it’s because people are bored, and frustrated, so they act more frustrated. It’ll change when the expansion hits.

Liadri was in the open world, not an instance. Just saying.

I wonder how much trouble poor Steve is in. I’m pretty sure that it’s an informal statement.

NoTrigger.8396:

“open world content” will never be challenging. and you dont have to be a genius to understand why.

I’d avoid using the word never. Usually when people use it, they’re wrong.

Challenging, as already pointed out, means different things to different people. I absolutely believe that open world content can be challenging if designed correctly.

Bloodstealer.5978:

Vayne.8563:

spoj.9672:

The dynamic events was focused on because it was innovative and good for marketing. Dont try to spin it any other way. They have never said that one particular area is the focus of the game. Thats just your opinion.

Its certainly true they have focused more on open world content over time for various reasons. But that doesnt mean its the main focus of the game. Its just easier and more popular to develop. But it doesnt really have the same longevity as other content.

Sorry they did say their goal was to create a living/breathing world. Not just once but many many times. Now I’m not sure how anyone things an instance would be a part of that.

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/

First page now of the description of the game. Bold letters:

“Enter a living, breathing fantasy world”

It’s always what was talked about. In your OPINION it was marketing which is why they said it, but my OPINION is not only backed up by what they said, but also by what they’ve done.

Yeah a living breathing world full of meaningful epic dynamic event that very few do or are able to do should a failtrain zerg take claim….
The only real epic events are simply cheesed because the lack of any meaningful scaleability and “consequence” and merely require the zerg to WP in, crush the mobs in seconds and WP to the next map moments later.. yeah epic dynamic events with such meaningful consequences ftw!!

They also said something about not wanting the “swing sword, swing a sword again, swing it 10 times…” – I guess like the many other words laid out in their original idea of the game.. things change and instanced content would be a welcome change for me personally. This WP in with a full zerg and autoattack for a few seconds then off to the next just isn’t cutting it for a leading AAA MMO, we may as well be back in the 80’s on our ATARI’s playing space invaders for the endless resets of same “epic dynamic event”… then again at least when you cleared a screen of mobs in space invaders the next one got progressively more difficult.

Whether they were successful or not doesn’t alter my point even a little. As for the swung a sword line, I’m pretty sure what Colin meant by it isn’t what most people think he meant by it.

Edited to be less offensive.

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

StinVec.3621:

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

The game definitely sees accounts as linked, because when opening the TP, it can show you what you last viewed on one account, even though you are on the other.

There have been other anecdotes posted on the forums about one account’s actions affecting a secondary account, as well.

Regardless, whether ArenaNet wants to implement anything in-game or out regarding said ‘link’, now or in the future, is unknown.

Just wanted to mention that the TP item view history is not a sign of account linking, but rather that the history is stored in a file that is used by the installation regardless of what account is logging in on the computer.

There are several files that have this behavior. Regardless of what account is logged in on the client, the files that contain these histories and settings are linked to the installation, not to the multiple accounts using the same computer.

Another example is of two different accounts using the same computer will both have the same graphics and control settings, due to it all being stored in a file and not a different copy of the file for each account that logs in from the client. Many of the instances cited around the forums to support a claim that two GW2 accounts are linked are easily explained by these files retaining the settings across logins, regardless of if it is a different account logging in as it is still the same installation on the same computer.

And yet something links accounts for security reasons, else GMs would not be able to state, ‘And your other 47 accounts are banned, as well.’

It is odd that the TP keeps a shared file of viewed items, but not those bought, listed or sold. I’m not disputing it does, it just is odd.

The TP uses the internet to function. It’s essentially a dedicated web browser. The items it in are backed up in the way what you look at is backed up in any browser. It’s in a file on your hard drive. When you change to another account, you’re not using a different install of guild wars, so that file remains the same. The accounts aren’t linked.

In all likelihood, security knows accounts are linked because they can trace the IP of the account, but the accounts are not directly linked.

In fact, I have multiple accounts, bought on different credit cards with different email addresses, so there’s no real way they could be linked, except my IP.

Don’t know if anyone mentioned it, but the engineer rifle skill jump shot is a boon for people who can’t jump.

Fenrir.3609:

Yes the game needs more challenging instanced pve content.

The game is a themepark, not some deeply complex sandbox, adding in some new instanced content is not going to suddenly take away peoples beloved semi afk chest farm zergs, or prevent them from adding other non instanced stuff.

If they had wanted to really focus on a “open, living, breathing fantasy world” they should have made a player driven sandbox. Instead they made a themepark with dynamic zergs ("open world!!) and instanced pve content.

I’m not disagreeing or agreeing with you. It may be that you’re right. I’m simply saying that I believe the open world to be the internal focus of the company and I believe that state of affairs have existed from day one.

That doesn’t mean that instanced content won’t benefit the game. I just think Anet is really trying to provide a way forward in the open world and STILL have challenging content. I think they’ve been experimenting the whole time with stuff like the marionette and the nightmare tower and they’ve been honing their skills in that creation.

I know a lot of people who insist that only instances will serve will be disappointed, but others won’t. That’s how it is. No game is going to please everyone.

Frankly, I hope Anet can make challenging open world content, that can’t be zerged. Time will tell.

In my opinion the trait changes occurred because of an unhealthy lack of progression in the game.

People would level to 80, get top level gear relatively quickly, and then stop playing. Ascended gear was introduced as a stopgap measure of sorts to keep people playing longer, but ultimately didn’t work. Too many people didn’t care about the small stat difference, or didn’t want to craft.

The idea behind making you “work” to get your traits isn’t necessarily a bad idea, but the implementation was awful.

spoj.9672:

The dynamic events was focused on because it was innovative and good for marketing. Dont try to spin it any other way. They have never said that one particular area is the focus of the game. Thats just your opinion.

Its certainly true they have focused more on open world content over time for various reasons. But that doesnt mean its the main focus of the game. Its just easier and more popular to develop. But it doesnt really have the same longevity as other content.

Sorry they did say their goal was to create a living/breathing world. Not just once but many many times. Now I’m not sure how anyone things an instance would be a part of that.

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/

First page now of the description of the game. Bold letters:

“Enter a living, breathing fantasy world”

It’s always what was talked about. In your OPINION it was marketing which is why they said it, but my OPINION is not only backed up by what they said, but also by what they’ve done.

spoj.9672:

uhohhotdog.3598:

The game was originally sold as open world. They made much about dynamic events and made huge promises that never happened. I want them to fulfill that promise before attempting more instanced crap.

It was not. It was sold as play how you want. They discussed dynamic events and meaningful choices in dungeons (explorable multi paths and story modes) at length. Both aspects fell short on the promises made.

Though the game was originally sold as having dungeons, and having a personal story, the focal point was always dynamic events and the open world. What did Anet actually say about the game? That they wanted to create a living/breathing world. A virtual world. Build worlds is what they focused on.

That’s not to say they didn’t mention dungeons…they absolutely mentioned them. But a mention is not a focus.
-
I followed this game very closely for years before it launched, and for a fact, they were talking about a living breathing world as the main goal for the game, and dynamic events as the center piece of it.

If you need more evidence, they focused afterwards on the Living World, which focused on the open world. During all the Living World chapters, they had 2 dungeons or 3 if you count the tiny one in Southsun with the traps. More like a minigame that one.

Anet has focused on the open world and events. The nightmare tower was open world. The marionette. Escape from Lion’s Arch. Battle for Lion’s Arch. Triple Trouble and the new Tequatl fight, were all open world.

Anet didn’t dissolve their open world team, they dissolved their dungeon team. But I knew, coming into this game before it ever launched that the focus was supposed to be open world. Even though they mentioned dungeons. Even though they mentioned other stuff. Focus is focus.

And every other aspect of the playerbase, PvP players, WvW players and dungeon runners are all complaining they haven’t been getting attention and all the focus goes to the Living Story and the open world.

Anet tried expanding dynamic events and they didn’t give the results they wanted, so they came out with the Living World. And then when the first season wasn’t as well received as they wanted, they came out with a second season which was better received and still has work that needs to be done to make it more accepted.

But a living world of some time was always the goal. Anet said so even before the game launched.

RoseofGilead.8907:

FlamingFoxx.1305:

If you purchase something from a store and they had a sale the day after you would not be entitled to a refund or compensation. You made a decision to purchase said item, and then a sale happened. You weren’t ripped off.

Actually, many stores would offer either a full refund or a refund of the extra amount paid, as long as it was within a certain time frame. The major chain stores I’ve worked for in the past would definitely honor it if it had been less than 48 hours since the initial sale and the customer had a receipt, as well as the item they purchased, with them.

Except that you’re not buying a game. You’re buying access to a game. It’s more like a health club membership, than a physical product. You’re buying access.

And I’m not sure how many of those companies would act like a retail store.

Suinz.5968:

Beldin.5498:

Personally i don’t really have a problem if all those people that want their raids
go to Wildstar instead of turning GW2 into another raid grinder. However it
seems they simply always return .. as if its their personal crusade to make each
MMO similiar to all those others out there ^^

It wouldn’t be a raid grinder. You wouldn’t be getting any gear upgrades. Just unique skins. World Bosses are not challenging PvE content. This game lacks any sort of challenging content for PvE. I want to be engaged. Not spamming auto attack. I don’t get why so many of you are against challenging content.

It seems like you want this game to be so different that you would actually deny content. Different isn’t always good in the long run. Plus, Anet already said the challenging PvE content in HoT wouldn’t be in the open world. So there is a huge chance my wish may come true.

They didn’t say that. That was how what Colin said was interpreted. It might be true, it might not be. But it is an assumption. And yes I saw the quote.

Actually Gaile is traveling around Europe? hmmm

My personal theory is she’s scouting out locations to film the Guild Wars 2 movie. lol

NoTrigger.8396:

Vayne.8563:

NoTrigger.8396:

ckotoc.5421:

Do you see whats the problem with gw2?You ask for something new that will give more options in game and ppl tell you to go play something else that already have it…

just going to leave this here
http://www.reddit.com/r/WildStar/comments/29173s/getting_epics_is_too_hard/cih9veu?context=3

thats pretty much the explanation of why these entitled and egoistic people are how they are and why they are afraid of instanced content.

I’m not afraid of instanced content because I can’t beat it. I’m not afraid of instanced content at all. I just don’t find at as fun. I can do anything I set my mind to. But why would I, in a game, want to set my mind to something I don’t find entertaining.

Nice try painting all of us with one brush.

im not trying to paint “all of you” with one brush.

im painting the people who want everything regardless of effort with one brush.

seriously vayne, being a white knight isnt going to help you or anyone else.

LMAO! Stop calling me a white knight, because this has nothing to do with defending Anet. It just has to do with people making ridiculous generalizations to make a point. There are people who are like that, sure. But there are people like that in every game. Calling them out doesn’t make a real point.

And a hundred years ago, there will still people who felt they were entitled to everything. This isn’t a new phenomena.

aspirine.6852:

Vayne.8563:

aspirine.6852:

lordkrall.7241:

aspirine.6852:

Black lion scam, no thanks I’d rather not play that terrible rng game.

You keep using that word. I don’t think it means what you think it means.

Trying to get people to buy keys and implement such an rng on the chest is not a scam you say?

It’s not a scam because what’s in the chest isn’t hidden. A scam would be selling you a bunch of keys and letting you think that you can get a free trip to Disneyworld when in fact you can’t.

That doesn’t make it good or right. It’s just not a scam. If I buy a key, it’s easy enough to look into exactly what I might or might not be getting. There are even enough posts to tell you you relative odds on getting stuff.

You mean you have a chance of getting? There are what 50 or more options or not? Scam is perhaps not the right word, but it sure feels like it when you try those keys

It’s certainly not worth buying keys….unless you like opening stuff and gambling, which some people do. But objectively it’s not worth it.

So the smart money is on not buying them.

NoTrigger.8396:

ckotoc.5421:

Do you see whats the problem with gw2?You ask for something new that will give more options in game and ppl tell you to go play something else that already have it…

just going to leave this here
http://www.reddit.com/r/WildStar/comments/29173s/getting_epics_is_too_hard/cih9veu?context=3

thats pretty much the explanation of why these entitled and egoistic people are how they are and why they are afraid of instanced content.

I’m not afraid of instanced content because I can’t beat it. I’m not afraid of instanced content at all. I just don’t find at as fun. I can do anything I set my mind to. But why would I, in a game, want to set my mind to something I don’t find entertaining.

Nice try painting all of us with one brush.

aspirine.6852:

lordkrall.7241:

aspirine.6852:

Black lion scam, no thanks I’d rather not play that terrible rng game.

You keep using that word. I don’t think it means what you think it means.

Trying to get people to buy keys and implement such an rng on the chest is not a scam you say?

It’s not a scam because what’s in the chest isn’t hidden. A scam would be selling you a bunch of keys and letting you think that you can get a free trip to Disneyworld when in fact you can’t.

That doesn’t make it good or right. It’s just not a scam. If I buy a key, it’s easy enough to look into exactly what I might or might not be getting. There are even enough posts to tell you you relative odds on getting stuff.

Hope you had a great time, Gaile!

dlonie.6547:

Not all of us who enjoy dungeons are the “toxic elitist” crowd, but I understand why we’ve been painted with that brush. The LFG can be a cesspool if you don’t know how to read-between-the-lines on the party descriptions. Even then…kittens still occasionally pop up in seemingly friendly groups.

I’m an officer in a guild that built itself up during post-launch by dungeon mentoring. We don’t care about zerk or not, we don’t like Dkitten bosses to death, we’re fine doing full clears or “actually fighting” instead of using the usual pug strats…all while getting to know each other and having a good time.

We’re the ones you don’t see, and there are many guilds like us. We’re the ones being punished for the results of farmers flocking to dungeons and beating on anyone who isn’t there to just get in, get gold, and get out.

Just don’t assume that all dungeon fans are toxic elitists. I see plenty of toxic activity in map chat in SW, but I don’t think everyone doing VW is a kitten

I totally respect guilds like yours. I’m sure there are plenty of them, because my guild is similar…though without any kind of focus on dungeons. When we do run them, we tend to do them more or less as intended.

dlonie.6547:

Beldin.5498:

Dondarrion.2748:

I’m more worried that people will now go get themselves invested in WS (that now goes f2p) or check out ESO, SW:TOR, etc.

Oh .. WS will kill GW2 the second time, and ESO has already killed it twice .. and now will kill it the third time ?

Oh and of course there is also ArcheAge .. and Black Desert ^^

Nothing is going to kill it (well, if HoT flops, that might do it…). These games just offer things that GW2 doesn’t, and should be known as options for players that find GW2 lacking. ESO has much better lore and storytelling, WS does much better PvE, and GW2 does much better cosmetics and casual open-world.

It doesn’t need to be a competition. They each fill a niche and can coexist.

WS doesn’t do much better in PvE, only a certain type of PvE. I don’t like that type of PvE and so WS doesn’t do it for me, even in PvE. But yes, it does much better in raids.

Mikali.9651:

Vayne.8563:

evilunderling.9265:

Vayne.8563:

I agree some of what you said. But I think there are ways to deal with the zerg mentality without actually making raids. In some ways, it’s already been done in parts of the game.

To a point, it is something you can avoid with content design, yes. But if your content designer also has to also work around a whole bunch of extra problems because the content in question isn’t instanced, that is itself is going to affect the quality of the content they design.

I strongly suspect Anet doesn’t want to add a lot fo instanced content to this game. I guess we’ll soon see if I’m right or not.

I’m happy with a fact that you are almost never right
From the very beggining, you had your ideas, your thoughts, they were wrong 90% of the time (will not say 100%).
Still, I do like they way you are discussing things, but your view is pretty big time casual, without any believing in facts that are presented.
Just can’t stop thinking when we had discussion about will expansion come or not.
Oh boy, you defended your view so strongly, yet u were wrong so badly.

There will be some type of raids, I’ve been with anet for 10 years, but when we talk about challenge, that is not the type this game is, it doesn’t have real challenge, and it will not have real challenge (as Tera for example).
It will be challenging for casual players, newcomers in the mmo world, but for us veterans, I doubt it.

Which is interesting in itself, if you ask why people want challenge, what does come to mind? Why do people play it?

From your point of the view, it’s cuz of rewards.
And that is your whole argument, and that is where you are wrong.
Challenge in itself is a reward.
Anet will never ever put other rewards behind it (ones that would be better then doing casual things), being it skins or mats (there is nothing else to be rewards).

Anyway, I would LOVE for skins to be rewards, you know why?
Cuz I’m sick and tired of skins being in gem store, for what purpose? If we watch it from the side of the gamer:
So, casual players can put their wallets out, and give money for skins?
And for you, that is alright? (I hope it’s not)

But for a challenging content to have skins that is wrong? (your view)

If that is your view, you are not really a gamer, you are casual person who plays games for fun and nothing else (which is alright, but you aren’t gamer).

Yes, Anet got a bit greedy, so you are even right about that thing. Best skins are in gem store, and will be, they have to get money out of people.

(Or we have to grind gold to get gems)….mmm…grinding for a gold to get gems to get skins…that is so fun!

TLDR. Game will have some type of raids, but it will not be challenging enough for veteran players, cuz Anet will not do it (cuz of reward system).

EDIT. By the way Vayne, you don’t have to fear about the rewards, this game doesn’t have real rewards, there is no gear treadmill, there is nothing that makes you more powerful then other person. Rewards are cosmetic, some gold, and mats.
So there is really not a reason for you to be against raids. At all

Actually I never once said an expasnion wouldn’t come. I always said big projects were being worked on in the background and Anet said they didn’t know how they were going to deliver them. What I didn’t want to do, and I wear this fully, is to get the hopes up of every single person to expect an expansion when Anet never said, to that point that there’d be one.

In fact, most of what I’ve said has panned out. If you go point by point you’ll find I’m right far more often them I’m wrong. Not all the time, but far greater than the 50% mark.

Including what I said about expansions.

NoTrigger.8396:

Vayne.8563:

NoTrigger.8396:

Vayne.8563:

NoTrigger.8396:

Healix.5819:

NoTrigger.8396:

nexxe.7081:

Just look at Wildstar for example. Hardcore raiding game that is on life support. The majority didn’t want that so they left in droves.

this is bs. timetravel said statistics show that players who entered dungeons or raids in wildstar were more likely to stay.

They also said that ~60% of the player base played solo. WildStar’s ultimate failure was that they only focused on challenging group content.

they did not only focus on challenging group content. there is plenty of stuff to do for the casual player. more than enough tbh. most people who claim wildstar failed because of the challenging content didnt even make it to 50.

few days ago a guy on reddit wanted to tell me he leveled to 12 and the dungeons were too hard. funny, you cant even enter a dungeon at level 12

Funny that isn’t what the Wildstar devs said about it.

have you played the game? nope? ok thats all i need to know.
everything i said above is true.

I did play the game, but not for long. However, the devs did come out with a comment early on, when the game was leaking subscriptions. I’m paraphrasing here, but what they said was, oh we didn’t realize how many of you guys wanted to do solo stuff. It surprised us. However, we see now that we need this other stuff and we’ll work to get it in there.

Not sure why they’d lie.

and what exactly does that have to do with my statement? nothing.

Your statement gave a reason that the game didn’t do well but the devs gave a different reason. That’s what it has to do with your statement.

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

Just to be accurate, Boosters are not guaranteed. You can actually get 3 (or 4) items that do not include a Booster. =)

A booster is guaranteed. You get three items in each chest, and the first one, the one in the first slot is ALWAYS a booster of some kind.

Old news, OP and well on the way to being changed.

Dante.1763:

Vayne.8563:

Heroic fantasy usually makes me laugh. In Skyrim, though I never had a magic spell or used magic, I was still able to become leader of the magicians guild. lol

How? you have to use magic to get in to the mages college, dont you? and a few of the quests i swear require magic xD

You have to use a shout, but not a spell. I didn’t put points into any magic.

Some players are definitely taking a break. Not that many, if my guild is any real indication, but people in my guild play less hours than they used to, including me. Because I’ve done most of what I want to do. That means very little, because it’s happened in every MMO I’ve ever played. Eventually you end up waiting for content. Nothing to write home about.

The thing is, due to the new sales, and the number of new players who haven’t finished everything, there’s still plenty of in game traffic. My guild has a few people taking a break but more new members than people breaking.

ckotoc.5421:

Do you see whats the problem with gw2?You ask for something new that will give more options in game and ppl tell you to go play something else that already have it…

I see a problem with people who can’t see what other people are talking about.

I understand the arguments for more and more varied content, but if you don’t think that comes with a price tag, I’d say you’d be wrong.

The problem is many of us have played games with raids and we said what raiding has done to the game and the community. Now that MIGHT not happen here, depending on how raiding was implemented.

But I don’t know how you can blame people for experiencing something, deciding they don’t like its affect on the game or the community, and then saying so.

The problem is, people aren’t tolerant of what other people want.

All anyone can do is state what they want here. Those in favor of raids are free to state they want them. But they want to say other people aren’t free to state that they don’t.

Seems legit.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Vayne.8563:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Vayne.8563:

Black lion chests are no more exploitive than baseball cards used to be. Every year you’d buy packs of cards, over and over again to get the players you wanted. This type of thing isn’t new. It’s not just Guild Wars 2. It’s not just MMOs.

Companies have been plying this trade of getting people to buy random packs of things to get specific things for a long time.

The only real difference is the ease of access, since no one sold baseball cards in your house.

There’s more than one real difference.

Card packs, whether sport or collectible-game packs, contain cards. They’re all usable for the same thing. If you get a card you have no use for, you still have the potential to trade it to someone else for something you do want. With some cards, like MTG, you might be able to sell a card you don’t want, partially or completely defraying your expenses. Not true with BLC’s. You have to get quite lucky to get anything salable, as most of the items dropped are account bound. Also, if you do sell something, you’re getting gold, not money.

The third real difference, this one in ANet’s favor, is that you can obtain keys via play, and gold can be exchanged for gems to buy keys. Card packs do not allow for a similar option.

So, is random acquisition of a desired item, sight unseen, new in MMO’s? Nope, you’re right. But there’s more than just ease of access to consider when comparing.

Both card packs and virtual keys to open virtual chests exploit human weakness. I don’t support either (well, I haven’t with cards since I was a kid, and never did with chests in MMO’s). However, I believe that card packs offer more potential value than virtual chests, unless someone is inclined to buy the various fluff gewgaws that exist to allow the developer to give people something other than what they’re really after.

Many of the things you get from black lion chests can be traded though and in fact, people trade them for what they want. Everyone who buys keys to get weapons to sell on the trading post, is in fact trading their ticket scraps and tickets for gold. Which will in fact allow them to buy stuff they want. It’s not really any different than selling a baseball card. You can sell the minis for 2-3 gold each and save toward something you want too.

This is just a computerized update of what they did with baseball cards, and it’s been going on forever. I know because I know how much money as I kid I spent on not just sports cards, but collectible cards like wacky packs.

And now, of course, they have magic the gathering. Random chests have been around in one form or another for a long long time. Are there slight differences? Sure.

But it’s only because technology has moved on.

It’s like saying TV is more damaging now because it’s color.

Every time someone opens a card pack, they get cards. Every time someone opens a BLC, they do not get something that’s not account bound. The wiki page on the BLC, in fact, states that most items are account bound. I’ve only opened them with keys from story completion or the ultra rare key drop from a mob. With the exception of one dye drop and one mini, everything I’ve gotten has been account bound.

Also, if someone’s objective in opening a chest is a ticket to get a weapon skin, they win. Saying that they can trade the weapon skin for gold is kind of off given the thread topic.

Except most of the stuff that’s account bound, is largely worthless and wouldn’t sell anyway. Boosters are account bound. They’d be worth next to nothing. Most of the minis aren’t, they’re worth something. Largely speaking, the stuff worth actual money, for the most part, can be sold, and that’s what people buy it for.

Boosters are guaranteed and always account bound. Everyone knows that. People that buy keys know they automatically get one account bound booster. It’s not the start of the show. Other account bound things include bank express, repair cannister, other keys (which allow you to open more chests).

Saying most things are account bound in this case is a bit misleading because that stuff that is is mostly (again mostly) worthless anyway.

The stuff you want, again for the most part, can either be sold directly (like nodes) or parlayed into something which can be sold, like black lion ticket scraps.

Heroic fantasy usually makes me laugh. In Skyrim, though I never had a magic spell or used magic, I was still able to become leader of the magicians guild. lol

I don’t believe that instanced content is really the goal of the company.

DarkOcean.8746:

Vayne.8563:

DarkOcean.8746:

Vayne.8563:

DarkOcean.8746:

Vayne.8563:

Because it takes time to mobilize people and they didn’t have enough time to get enough people. They just barely caught both guys in the act. If you know about stuff early enough you can rally your forces. If you have to run out the door NOW, by the time your rally them it’s too late.

One me was enough to save the orphanage. One Logan, or Anise, or, pretty much, anyone should have been enough to save the hospital (or vice versa).

One Luke Skywalker was what it took to destroy the death star, but no one else could have done it. Welcome to heroic fantasy.

Our characters are mere peasants compared to the other powers at work in the Guild Wars universe, though. We’re very novice (maybe adept) level. It’s a game and fantasy (obviously), but surely there would have been another intervening factor such an actual situation like this presented itself within the confines and parameters of this universe.

What? I don’t know about you, I was the Hero of Shamoor. When Luke Skywalker destroyed the deathstar, he’d yet to train with Yoda. Just saying.

Maybe :p Try taking on Jennah, Logan, Eir, Trahearne, or most other actual threats by yourself and see what happens.

The only time I ever found Logan useful, actually useful, was in the story mode of CoF.

DarkOcean.8746:

Vayne.8563:

DarkOcean.8746:

Vayne.8563:

Because it takes time to mobilize people and they didn’t have enough time to get enough people. They just barely caught both guys in the act. If you know about stuff early enough you can rally your forces. If you have to run out the door NOW, by the time your rally them it’s too late.

One me was enough to save the orphanage. One Logan, or Anise, or, pretty much, anyone should have been enough to save the hospital (or vice versa).

One Luke Skywalker was what it took to destroy the death star, but no one else could have done it. Welcome to heroic fantasy.

Our characters are mere peasants compared to the other powers at work in the Guild Wars universe, though. We’re very novice (maybe adept) level. It’s a game and fantasy (obviously), but surely there would have been another intervening factor such an actual situation like this presented itself within the confines and parameters of this universe.

What? I don’t know about you, I was the Hero of Shamoor. When Luke Skywalker destroyed the deathstar, he’d yet to train with Yoda. Just saying.

I think the OP should receive some sort of compensation. By the same token it won’t be a legendary or a precursor or anything close. And I don’t think the OP should expect that.

NoTrigger.8396:

Vayne.8563:

NoTrigger.8396:

Healix.5819:

NoTrigger.8396:

nexxe.7081:

Just look at Wildstar for example. Hardcore raiding game that is on life support. The majority didn’t want that so they left in droves.

this is bs. timetravel said statistics show that players who entered dungeons or raids in wildstar were more likely to stay.

They also said that ~60% of the player base played solo. WildStar’s ultimate failure was that they only focused on challenging group content.

they did not only focus on challenging group content. there is plenty of stuff to do for the casual player. more than enough tbh. most people who claim wildstar failed because of the challenging content didnt even make it to 50.

few days ago a guy on reddit wanted to tell me he leveled to 12 and the dungeons were too hard. funny, you cant even enter a dungeon at level 12

Funny that isn’t what the Wildstar devs said about it.

have you played the game? nope? ok thats all i need to know.
everything i said above is true.

I did play the game, but not for long. However, the devs did come out with a comment early on, when the game was leaking subscriptions. I’m paraphrasing here, but what they said was, oh we didn’t realize how many of you guys wanted to do solo stuff. It surprised us. However, we see now that we need this other stuff and we’ll work to get it in there.

Not sure why they’d lie.

DarkOcean.8746:

Vayne.8563:

Because it takes time to mobilize people and they didn’t have enough time to get enough people. They just barely caught both guys in the act. If you know about stuff early enough you can rally your forces. If you have to run out the door NOW, by the time your rally them it’s too late.

One me was enough to save the orphanage. One Logan, or Anise, or, pretty much, anyone should have been enough to save the hospital (or vice versa).

One Luke Skywalker was what it took to destroy the death star, but no one else could have done it. Welcome to heroic fantasy.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Vayne.8563:

Black lion chests are no more exploitive than baseball cards used to be. Every year you’d buy packs of cards, over and over again to get the players you wanted. This type of thing isn’t new. It’s not just Guild Wars 2. It’s not just MMOs.

Companies have been plying this trade of getting people to buy random packs of things to get specific things for a long time.

The only real difference is the ease of access, since no one sold baseball cards in your house.

There’s more than one real difference.

Card packs, whether sport or collectible-game packs, contain cards. They’re all usable for the same thing. If you get a card you have no use for, you still have the potential to trade it to someone else for something you do want. With some cards, like MTG, you might be able to sell a card you don’t want, partially or completely defraying your expenses. Not true with BLC’s. You have to get quite lucky to get anything salable, as most of the items dropped are account bound. Also, if you do sell something, you’re getting gold, not money.

The third real difference, this one in ANet’s favor, is that you can obtain keys via play, and gold can be exchanged for gems to buy keys. Card packs do not allow for a similar option.

So, is random acquisition of a desired item, sight unseen, new in MMO’s? Nope, you’re right. But there’s more than just ease of access to consider when comparing.

Both card packs and virtual keys to open virtual chests exploit human weakness. I don’t support either (well, I haven’t with cards since I was a kid, and never did with chests in MMO’s). However, I believe that card packs offer more potential value than virtual chests, unless someone is inclined to buy the various fluff gewgaws that exist to allow the developer to give people something other than what they’re really after.

Many of the things you get from black lion chests can be traded though and in fact, people trade them for what they want. Everyone who buys keys to get weapons to sell on the trading post, is in fact trading their ticket scraps and tickets for gold. Which will in fact allow them to buy stuff they want. It’s not really any different than selling a baseball card. You can sell the minis for 2-3 gold each and save toward something you want too.

This is just a computerized update of what they did with baseball cards, and it’s been going on forever. I know because I know how much money as I kid I spent on not just sports cards, but collectible cards like wacky packs.

And now, of course, they have magic the gathering. Random chests have been around in one form or another for a long long time. Are there slight differences? Sure.

But it’s only because technology has moved on.

It’s like saying TV is more damaging now because it’s color.

Because it takes time to mobilize people and they didn’t have enough time to get enough people. They just barely caught both guys in the act. If you know about stuff early enough you can rally your forces. If you have to run out the door NOW, by the time your rally them it’s too late.

They are doing something. They’re making an expansion. Most games have a large downturn in population before an expansion and it picks up after the expansion launches. Anyway I’m sure Anet knows this and has plans for other stuff.

For example I expect a lot of people to log in Tuesday for the open beta of the new PvP type.

I stopped reading after the completely ridiculous concept about races. Now OP this may come as a shock to you, but there are people out there complaining that there are no new races in HoT. It’s an actual complaint. Thus some people must want new races and a new race would solve at least some of THEIR problems. Here’s how I read your post.

I don’t think this stuff is important, it won’t fix it for me, so therefore it solves nothing.

This is my answer to your post. It solves nothing for you. There are several things in HoT that will solve things for me, and for other players I’ve talked to as well.

People should learn to talk for themselves.