Guild Wars 2

Windsagio.1340:

@Vayne, it does serve a purpose, it paints the setup in a negative moral light.

As I said, if every single MMORPG is painted in that light, is has no real meaning, unless you want to malign the genre as a whole.

But before we did that, it had a different meaning. It was about games that sold power more or less directly, not games that offered expansions.

They ARE two different things.

nexxe.7081:

CornBread.3268:

GW2 isn’t WoW. They give us new content CONSTANTLY! Guess how much of that content has been something that you had to buy… None of it. What’s the issue here? If you just love the game and want to support them, there is some really cool stuff in the gem store with no pay to win-ness to it. I say keep up the good work ANET. Y’all rock.

You’re right. It’s not WoW.

In almost all WoW expansions, you get new dungeons & raids, new pvp maps & modes, new continents & zones, new classes, new races, new crafting professions, new gear, new mounts & pets, new skills & talents, new game mechanics, new quests & stories, new arenas, etc. And this is just the expansions. After that, they constantly update the game throughout the expansion’s lifetime (the exception is WoD so far).

Just read each patch notes from patch 1.0 to patch 2.4, and you’ll realize how much they added in around 3 years: http://wow.gamepedia.com/Category:World_of_Warcraft_patches

And a few months after the expansion WoW lost 3 million people, all the people they’d gained, because that’s more than enough time to get through all the new content.

The wait between content releases in WoW is far far greater than the wait between content releases in Guild Wars 2. And regardless of anything, it doesn’t really matter how much WoW provides if you don’t like the game (which many don’t).

It’s not the blocking, that’s the problem. It’s when you go to invite someone to a guild, thinking you have and block them instead. Sometimes this can happen in the middle of a guild mission when someone asks for an invite. All things considered, you should get some kind of message that you’re blocking someone.

I can’t imagine why anyone feels this is unreasonable.

uhohhotdog.3598:

Vayne.8563:

uhohhotdog.3598:

Instead of living story they would be better off adding more dynamic events. Make them more detailed and longer chains.

I’m not sure that’s the way to go. I think dynamic events tend to be lost on people, because even though some people do like them (myself included) dynamic events don’t really offer progression. They cycle. They repeat over and over again.

What this game has really been missing is some form of progression. The only thing that kept some of us going is that the story was actually moving forward. It was progressing. I could see myself going somewhere.

That would be lost if you just added a bunch of dynamic events.

And historically, any time new events have been added to the world, they’ve been largely ignored, unless the living story has “encouraged” people to do them. Think of the toxic spore events, which were all added.

If they did them right they wouldn’t be ignored. The event chains need to be much longer and show some progression. And they need to not be undone completely overnight because no one was playing that map. For example when humans take over centaur camps they should actually construct human settlements rather than just have a few human npcs standing in a centaur camp. Get it to the point where you can do an event chain where you turn a centaur camp into an entire fort by doing events. That shows real progression in the world. Then the centaurs start using siege weapons to try to tear it down. Etc.

My point is, it’s not really progression if it repeats. They added two new zones filled to the brim with DE’s. Saying the should add DE’s is ignoring both Dry Top and Silverwastes which are chock full of them.

I think you’re using the term progression in place of persistent world. Persisting changes, don’t equal progression unless they’re permanent.

For example as you level to 80, each time you level, you gain a permanent level. You don’t go backwards. As you do your personal story, you don’t ever go backwards. You’re moving forward through the story.

But events cycle, it’s part of the nature of events. I’ve killed Tequatl and the Shatterer more times than I can count. If Anet adds another ten events like that, they’ll all become like Tequatl and the Shatterer.

Even long even chains like the Balthazar chain in Straits of Devestation (one of my favorite chains in the game), can’t be said to be progression because it’s only progression for X number of times. That’s why stuff like Zhaitan and the personal story is instanced. Because the world doesn’t progress but your story can.

I don’t believe that dynamic events, as nice as they would be (and again we have two new zones full of them) are going to offer the progression most people need to feel like they’re moving forward.

When we destroyed the Nightmare Tower, that was progression because the Nightmare tower no longer exists in the open world. The changes it made to Kessex Hills were both persistent and permanent. That’s the only real way to feel progression, at least for some of us.

uhohhotdog.3598:

Instead of living story they would be better off adding more dynamic events. Make them more detailed and longer chains.

I’m not sure that’s the way to go. I think dynamic events tend to be lost on people, because even though some people do like them (myself included) dynamic events don’t really offer progression. They cycle. They repeat over and over again.

What this game has really been missing is some form of progression. The only thing that kept some of us going is that the story was actually moving forward. It was progressing. I could see myself going somewhere.

That would be lost if you just added a bunch of dynamic events.

And historically, any time new events have been added to the world, they’ve been largely ignored, unless the living story has “encouraged” people to do them. Think of the toxic spore events, which were all added.

Actually, we’ve been getting small expansions all along, just not paying for them. Season 1 of the Living Story did have a lot of content. That content hasn’t remained in the game so people can say that it’s taken 3 years to make an expansion.

The problem is, Anet didn’t know they were going to have an expansion, probably until it was decided that the Living Story Season 1 had ultimately failed.

The only people who think we’re waiting 3 years for an expansion are people who aren’t actually paying attention to what’s been going on. Or people who decided there much be expansions and started counting from day 1 when no paid expansion was actually in the works.

Anet is trying different strategies to move the game forward, without raising the level cap or adding new tiers of gear. It is new and so it takes longer.

JoshuaRAWR.4653:

kittendragon.1832:

At least stop people from whispering me after they’ve already blocked me.

Unblocks
sends abuse
Reblocks
Unblocks
Sends abuse
reblocks

So just block them and be done with it. And screenshot the convo and report it.

The reason it’s needed is because there are options in the right pull down menu that you might use that are right next to block. A tiny tiny movement has you blocking someone instead of say inviting them to the guild. I’ve accidentally blocked friends and didn’t realize with with the current system.

No one is hating on you. You seem to be missing the point. You claim others don’t read your text, but you’re not reading theirs.

Pay to win has a negative connotation. It’s not an innocent description of something. By using P2W in your post, you trigger a response, because this is one of the least pay to win games most of us have ever played, certainly when it comes to MMORPGs. Even by your definition I can’t think of any MMORPG less pay to win than this one.

So you use what is essentially inflammatory and accusing language and they you try to hide behind a definition that most people don’t agree with, and then you claim people are hating on you.

The real issue here is that your definition of P2W servers no purpose, doesn’t agree with anyone else’s and accomplishes nothing, because it doesn’t segregate out the actual offenders. You cloud the issue.

But if you’re not going to respond again, the mods should probably close the thread anyway.

Tobias.8632:

Bit of a rant here. Just want to share my perspective on this and the living story in general.

I came back to the game for flame and frost, which was horrifically boring and involved mundane repetitive crap like running around pressing F on signposts for achievements, followed by farming an annoying and long dungeon for a 0.0001% chance of looting something I could sell on the TP for a bunch of gold. SAB was the one high point of an incredibly mediocre experience. Then there was secret of southsun, an update that was literally comprised of a crab toss minigame and again running around doing really boring trash content for achievements, so I’m like “I guess this is all the living story has to offer” and uninstalled GW2. Then apparently some really interesting stuff happened, so I reinstall the game, and I am greeted by Bazaar of the Four Winds, which involves yet again nothing but running around doing really boring trash content over and over again for achievements. Then comes cutthroat politics which involves yet again farming really boring trash content over and over again for voting tokens and also achievements. Please imagine I was screaming that last sentence, I would have typed it in all caps for emphasis but around here that gets your posts deleted.

So I uninstall GW2 again. I’ve been subscribed to the GW2 youtube channel the whole time and I see some videos about a tower of nightmares, but given my past experience I see nothing to suggest it involves any more then farming crappy content for achievements.

Then I hear about the HoT expansion, reinstall the game, and find out not only did I miss out on actually interesting LS content, if I want to check it out I have to fork over a metric kittenton of my hard earned gold thanks to the ridiculously inflated gem exchange rates, or $25 of my real dollars.

Oh well, let’s see what there is to do in GW2 now it’s been out for over two years…. well, there’s an incredibly small zone called silverwastes that I can farm an event in. Aside from that it’s like I’ve time traveled back to 2012, I run CoF, I do some world bosses, that’s all there is. If only I could actually have gone back to 2012 I could leave myself a note reminding me which parts of the game to log in for.

Considering that I spent like $90 australian for the standard edition of this game back at launch, I really feel like anet owes me a lot. I overpaid considerably for a good MMO experience and they have thus far completely failed to deliver anything but disappointment to me personally. Inb4 next post dismisses this by spouting the word “entitlement”. You’re kitten right I’m entitled. Now I’m going to fork out a bunch more cash for the HoT expansion because it’s required to make necro, the one class I’ve been playing since launch, actually good.

Anet owes you nothing. You bought a game, you didn’t like what it offered and other people did. Try altering this diatribe to match any other genre.

I paid for a movie, and I didn’t like it. Sony owes me money.

I bought a book, I didn’t like it, the publisher owes me money.

You didn’t like what’s on offer and that’s okay. So you didn’t follow it or stay with it. No one owes you anything. You did receive what you paid for. That’s all. It happens.

It’s happened to all of us at one time or another. You didn’t HAVE TO uninstall the game. You chose to. You didn’t have to ignore the information that you could unlock these chapters for free. You chose to.

You’re entitled to what you got for the money. And blaming Anet because games cost more in Australia is pointless too. That has little to do with Anet and everything to do with the “Australia tax” which is pretty much universal. Sucks but there it is.

Neox.3497:

Vayne.8563:

Neox.3497:

Vayne.8563:

Neox.3497:

Vayne.8563:

Neox.3497:

Ephemiel.5694:

So every game that added classes or class specs to their expansions are P2W.

That is one very twisted way of looking at this. I honestly don’t think you get what P2W in.

Yes they are.

For me the slightest advantage is pay 2 win.

But I have no problem when it’s in an MMO.

This is the problem with language. We use words to communicate. When we start making up our own definition of words and then use it in a post we cease to communicate. That’s why I try to use grind and farm differently (because they originally were different things).

It’s okay to rewrite the definition of a word in your mind but when you then try to use it on a forum, well then it gets hairy.

By your definition every game that sells for money is pay to win, because you have to buy it to win it. Guild Wars 2 was pay to win because if you don’t spend money you can’t play the game.

The words pay to win were created to denote and tag a specific type of game. A game where without the cash shop, without continually spending money, you couldn’t compete with people. That’s what pay to win has meant.

As you keep trying to move the language bar, you help no one. If every game does this, isn’t nothing to comment on. You’ve changed the definition of the phrase and you expect others to now agree with your altered definition.

Language and communication don’t work that way. It’s okay for you to change the definition of word. It’s not okay to claim it’s the actual definition.

But GW2:HoT isn’t a game it’s an expansion.
You can see the expansion as an item in the cash shop (= only available with real cash) and surprise, surprise! It fits your definition of pay 2 win.

You clearly can’t see the difference between the intention of a word and the actual word. No it doesn’t fit my definition of pay to win at all.

Again, the term pay to win was created to identify a very specific type of game, not something every single game does. There would have been no purpose on that. You’re trying to use a technicality to cloud the actual meaning, which is what lawyers do.

If you define evil as being X and everyone is doing that one thing then everyone is evil. But if everyone is evil then evil loses all meaning. There is no evil without good. Without good, evil doesn’t exist. It can’t exist in a vacuum.

The term pay to win was designed to deal with a specific unethical practice of allowing people to buy power, consistently through cash shop sales. Anet is selling you an expansion but it’s not JUST power. They’re selling you an entirely new area of the game. They’re saying you, and anyone, can access this for a single one time price.

People aren’t usually buying an expansion to get more power. They’re buying an expansion to get more content. It’s like going on a plane and getting a free meal and then saying that I have an advantage because I’m getting more food than someone. The purpose isn’t to pedal power. They’re not trying to get rich off pedaling power. They’re very legitimately selling an expansion.

If you can’t see the difference between these situations, there really is nothing to talk about.

People have to learn that a game isn’t just “pay 2 win” or “not pay 2 win”. Every game is either “not pay 2 win” or has a certain grade of “pay 2 win”.
Most people simply say a game is either pay 2 win or not which is a bad way of thinking.
For me a game is either not pay 2 win, sligtly pay 2 win, a bit pay 2 win, a lot pay 2 win, extremply pay 2 win or a different “grade” which aren’t really defined.
This is something the cusumer has to decide.

Also just take this example: Imagine the Revenant would one hit everybody. Would the game still be not pay 2 win?

So in your estimation what MMORPG is not pay to win?

Well none that has an expansion with a new profession and/or skills that lets non-xpac people play vs xpac people. I’m not sure if there are such MMORPGs. So I guess there is none. Is that a problem?

/Edit: Or better MMORPGs GET pay 2 win when they introduce expansions. So there are MMORPGs that are not pay 2 win but not for a long time. (GW2 for example RIGHT NOW)

Sure it’s a problem. The words pay to win have a negative connotation. So, if you’re using them, you’re maligning a game. It’s saying something bad about it.

If all MMOs are doing it, then all are bad, but there’s be no point to bringing it up at all. It’s only worth mentioning if this MMO is doing something wrong by releasing an expansion. Most people don’t see to think they are. You seem to be the exception.

There’s no argument here. If everyone is pay to win then it’s a pointless discussion.

Jerus.4350:

Vayne.8563:

Neox.3497:

Vayne.8563:

Neox.3497:

Vayne.8563:

Neox.3497:

Ephemiel.5694:

So every game that added classes or class specs to their expansions are P2W.

That is one very twisted way of looking at this. I honestly don’t think you get what P2W in.

Yes they are.

For me the slightest advantage is pay 2 win.

But I have no problem when it’s in an MMO.

This is the problem with language. We use words to communicate. When we start making up our own definition of words and then use it in a post we cease to communicate. That’s why I try to use grind and farm differently (because they originally were different things).

It’s okay to rewrite the definition of a word in your mind but when you then try to use it on a forum, well then it gets hairy.

By your definition every game that sells for money is pay to win, because you have to buy it to win it. Guild Wars 2 was pay to win because if you don’t spend money you can’t play the game.

The words pay to win were created to denote and tag a specific type of game. A game where without the cash shop, without continually spending money, you couldn’t compete with people. That’s what pay to win has meant.

As you keep trying to move the language bar, you help no one. If every game does this, isn’t nothing to comment on. You’ve changed the definition of the phrase and you expect others to now agree with your altered definition.

Language and communication don’t work that way. It’s okay for you to change the definition of word. It’s not okay to claim it’s the actual definition.

But GW2:HoT isn’t a game it’s an expansion.
You can see the expansion as an item in the cash shop (= only available with real cash) and surprise, surprise! It fits your definition of pay 2 win.

You clearly can’t see the difference between the intention of a word and the actual word. No it doesn’t fit my definition of pay to win at all.

Again, the term pay to win was created to identify a very specific type of game, not something every single game does. There would have been no purpose on that. You’re trying to use a technicality to cloud the actual meaning, which is what lawyers do.

If you define evil as being X and everyone is doing that one thing then everyone is evil. But if everyone is evil then evil loses all meaning. There is no evil without good. Without good, evil doesn’t exist. It can’t exist in a vacuum.

The term pay to win was designed to deal with a specific unethical practice of allowing people to buy power, consistently through cash shop sales. Anet is selling you an expansion but it’s not JUST power. They’re selling you an entirely new area of the game. They’re saying you, and anyone, can access this for a single one time price.

People aren’t usually buying an expansion to get more power. They’re buying an expansion to get more content. It’s like going on a plane and getting a free meal and then saying that I have an advantage because I’m getting more food than someone. The purpose isn’t to pedal power. They’re not trying to get rich off pedaling power. They’re very legitimately selling an expansion.

If you can’t see the difference between these situations, there really is nothing to talk about.

People have to learn that a game isn’t just “pay 2 win” or “not pay 2 win”. Every game is either “not pay 2 win” or has a certain grade of “pay 2 win”.
Most people simply say a game is either pay 2 win or not which is a bad way of thinking.
For me a game is either not pay 2 win, sligtly pay 2 win, a bit pay 2 win, a lot pay 2 win, extremply pay 2 win or a different “grade” which aren’t really defined.
This is something the cusumer has to decide.

Also just take this example: Imagine the Revenant would one hit everybody. Would the game still be not pay 2 win?

So in your estimation what MMORPG is not pay to win?

An MMO that is free, has no Gemstore, and basically makes no money?

Really this strict definition of P2W just detracts from the actual meaning. Degrees are important in definitions. There is a difference between good, better, and best.

P2W should be reserved for when a game goes beyond expecting expansion/DLC purchases to gain power, and move towards something beyond that.

I can at least understand boosters being called p2w, it’s hardly severe enough to be admonished, and considering you can get gems with gold, well, it’s not really p2w it all. But buying an expansion? No, that’s just expected.

This is my point, if every MMORPG is pay to win, than the words have no meaning at all. So let the OP suggest an MMO that’s not pay to win according to his definition. If he can’t, I’d say this is all null and void.

Neox.3497:

Vayne.8563:

Neox.3497:

Vayne.8563:

Neox.3497:

Ephemiel.5694:

So every game that added classes or class specs to their expansions are P2W.

That is one very twisted way of looking at this. I honestly don’t think you get what P2W in.

Yes they are.

For me the slightest advantage is pay 2 win.

But I have no problem when it’s in an MMO.

This is the problem with language. We use words to communicate. When we start making up our own definition of words and then use it in a post we cease to communicate. That’s why I try to use grind and farm differently (because they originally were different things).

It’s okay to rewrite the definition of a word in your mind but when you then try to use it on a forum, well then it gets hairy.

By your definition every game that sells for money is pay to win, because you have to buy it to win it. Guild Wars 2 was pay to win because if you don’t spend money you can’t play the game.

The words pay to win were created to denote and tag a specific type of game. A game where without the cash shop, without continually spending money, you couldn’t compete with people. That’s what pay to win has meant.

As you keep trying to move the language bar, you help no one. If every game does this, isn’t nothing to comment on. You’ve changed the definition of the phrase and you expect others to now agree with your altered definition.

Language and communication don’t work that way. It’s okay for you to change the definition of word. It’s not okay to claim it’s the actual definition.

But GW2:HoT isn’t a game it’s an expansion.
You can see the expansion as an item in the cash shop (= only available with real cash) and surprise, surprise! It fits your definition of pay 2 win.

You clearly can’t see the difference between the intention of a word and the actual word. No it doesn’t fit my definition of pay to win at all.

Again, the term pay to win was created to identify a very specific type of game, not something every single game does. There would have been no purpose on that. You’re trying to use a technicality to cloud the actual meaning, which is what lawyers do.

If you define evil as being X and everyone is doing that one thing then everyone is evil. But if everyone is evil then evil loses all meaning. There is no evil without good. Without good, evil doesn’t exist. It can’t exist in a vacuum.

The term pay to win was designed to deal with a specific unethical practice of allowing people to buy power, consistently through cash shop sales. Anet is selling you an expansion but it’s not JUST power. They’re selling you an entirely new area of the game. They’re saying you, and anyone, can access this for a single one time price.

People aren’t usually buying an expansion to get more power. They’re buying an expansion to get more content. It’s like going on a plane and getting a free meal and then saying that I have an advantage because I’m getting more food than someone. The purpose isn’t to pedal power. They’re not trying to get rich off pedaling power. They’re very legitimately selling an expansion.

If you can’t see the difference between these situations, there really is nothing to talk about.

People have to learn that a game isn’t just “pay 2 win” or “not pay 2 win”. Every game is either “not pay 2 win” or has a certain grade of “pay 2 win”.
Most people simply say a game is either pay 2 win or not which is a bad way of thinking.
For me a game is either not pay 2 win, sligtly pay 2 win, a bit pay 2 win, a lot pay 2 win, extremply pay 2 win or a different “grade” which aren’t really defined.
This is something the cusumer has to decide.

Also just take this example: Imagine the Revenant would one hit everybody. Would the game still be not pay 2 win?

So in your estimation what MMORPG is not pay to win?

I just got it yesterday but I was standing quite a ways back, actually outside where the ring of fire for the second phase. But I also had two guildies doing it with me, who already had their achievement.

Don’t know if that will help or not.

Zaklex.6308:

You do realize that ArenaNet has a marketing agreement with Overwolf, don’t you? That’s the big reason they went this route.

There’s definitely some kind of marketing agreement, but I don’t see how you can draw the conclusion that that’s why Anet went this way.

Guild Wars 1 didn’t have that sort of agreement and there were no mods allowed in Guild Wars 1 either.

It’s possibly they made the agreement, having nothing to do with why they went this way. After all, even if they don’t want mods, they’d still want to market their game, no?

Even if there were skills or builds in the expansion that would make you more powerful, the game still wouldn’t, in my opinion, be pay to win, even if you could massage the language to make it look that way.

Let’s say I saw a man attacking another man with a bat and I was strong and brave enough to take the bat away from him. It may very well be true that I “stole” the bat from him. But if he were to then post on a forum that I was a thief, that would be completely misleading.

Saying a game expansion is pay to win because it offers options or skills not in the base game is a similar form of misdirection. The words pay to win are there to indicate that company is doing something wrong.

I’m wondering if the OP could point out a single MMORPG that isn’t pay to win by his definition.

Neox.3497:

Vayne.8563:

Neox.3497:

Ephemiel.5694:

So every game that added classes or class specs to their expansions are P2W.

That is one very twisted way of looking at this. I honestly don’t think you get what P2W in.

Yes they are.

For me the slightest advantage is pay 2 win.

But I have no problem when it’s in an MMO.

This is the problem with language. We use words to communicate. When we start making up our own definition of words and then use it in a post we cease to communicate. That’s why I try to use grind and farm differently (because they originally were different things).

It’s okay to rewrite the definition of a word in your mind but when you then try to use it on a forum, well then it gets hairy.

By your definition every game that sells for money is pay to win, because you have to buy it to win it. Guild Wars 2 was pay to win because if you don’t spend money you can’t play the game.

The words pay to win were created to denote and tag a specific type of game. A game where without the cash shop, without continually spending money, you couldn’t compete with people. That’s what pay to win has meant.

As you keep trying to move the language bar, you help no one. If every game does this, isn’t nothing to comment on. You’ve changed the definition of the phrase and you expect others to now agree with your altered definition.

Language and communication don’t work that way. It’s okay for you to change the definition of word. It’s not okay to claim it’s the actual definition.

But GW2:HoT isn’t a game it’s an expansion.
You can see the expansion as an item in the cash shop (= only available with real cash) and surprise, surprise! It fits your definition of pay 2 win.

You clearly can’t see the difference between the intention of a word and the actual word. No it doesn’t fit my definition of pay to win at all.

Again, the term pay to win was created to identify a very specific type of game, not something every single game does. There would have been no purpose on that. You’re trying to use a technicality to cloud the actual meaning, which is what lawyers do.

If you define evil as being X and everyone is doing that one thing then everyone is evil. But if everyone is evil then evil loses all meaning. There is no evil without good. Without good, evil doesn’t exist. It can’t exist in a vacuum.

The term pay to win was designed to deal with a specific unethical practice of allowing people to buy power, consistently through cash shop sales. Anet is selling you an expansion but it’s not JUST power. They’re selling you an entirely new area of the game. They’re saying you, and anyone, can access this for a single one time price.

People aren’t usually buying an expansion to get more power. They’re buying an expansion to get more content. It’s like going on a plane and getting a free meal and then saying that I have an advantage because I’m getting more food than someone. The purpose isn’t to pedal power. They’re not trying to get rich off pedaling power. They’re very legitimately selling an expansion.

If you can’t see the difference between these situations, there really is nothing to talk about.

Zodian.6597:

Vayne.8563:

There are many people who had mods though. It’s not like if you start a mod thread you won’t find a lot of resistance. You make it sound like mods are the best thing since sliced bread. At best mods are a mixed bag that cause considerable problems in games.

Also allowing in game mods very often leads to better ways to bot.

mods/addons are an outlet for users to create the modular features that should be in the game, but were never added due to resource constraints and deadlines. I think in our case, at the very best, we’d have build templates, boss timers, an LFG tool, and a popper tutorial within 3 months of this game’s launch (if it shipped with addons support). I know we’d have these things because we built all of them into external community websites that worked and saw huge traffic. You can argue botting all day, but bots don’t scare off players nearly as fast as a lack of features/content does. And we know Anet already seems to have the tools and resources available to deal with bots, but they don’t have the resources to deal with the demand of modular features that this game sees when a significant amount of people are actually playing it.

By the same token in EVERY MMO forums I’ve ever been on, there’s been resistence to and argument about modding. Some people, like you, swear by it. Some people are equally resistant to it.

There are reasons I don’t like mods, having to do with how they almost completely destroyed my enjoyment of some games past. Basically once a mod becomes popular, developers need to take it into account when developing for it, even if I don’t want to use it. That means I’m handicapped by not using specific mods to do specific content.

Keeping control of the game to the devs isn’t always a bad idea. Mind you I have no problem with mods for single player games, but in MMOs, as I’ve already said, they’re a mixed bag at best.

There are many people who had mods though. It’s not like if you start a mod thread you won’t find a lot of resistance. You make it sound like mods are the best thing since sliced bread. At best mods are a mixed bag that cause considerable problems in games.

Also allowing in game mods very often leads to better ways to bot.

Neox.3497:

Ephemiel.5694:

So every game that added classes or class specs to their expansions are P2W.

That is one very twisted way of looking at this. I honestly don’t think you get what P2W in.

Yes they are.

For me the slightest advantage is pay 2 win.

But I have no problem when it’s in an MMO.

This is the problem with language. We use words to communicate. When we start making up our own definition of words and then use it in a post we cease to communicate. That’s why I try to use grind and farm differently (because they originally were different things).

It’s okay to rewrite the definition of a word in your mind but when you then try to use it on a forum, well then it gets hairy.

By your definition every game that sells for money is pay to win, because you have to buy it to win it. Guild Wars 2 was pay to win because if you don’t spend money you can’t play the game.

The words pay to win were created to denote and tag a specific type of game. A game where without the cash shop, without continually spending money, you couldn’t compete with people. That’s what pay to win has meant.

As you keep trying to move the language bar, you help no one. If every game does this, isn’t nothing to comment on. You’ve changed the definition of the phrase and you expect others to now agree with your altered definition.

Language and communication don’t work that way. It’s okay for you to change the definition of word. It’s not okay to claim it’s the actual definition.

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

@Devata

You almost got it now. You say, if we crunch numbers we’d get this as if it were some sort of fact. You’re the one claiming to know something definitively.

Where exactly do I say that is definitively?

This is your unedited paragraph:

“When you crunch the numbers (and that’s all we have to go on) you conclude that the expansion model would have made them more money, and the fact that even an announcement of an expansion increases income only backs that up.”

This is stated as a fact. The implication of crunching numbers allows you to “conclude”…there’s nothing TO conclude from the numbers posted. Crunching numbers is never about opinion. Crunching numbers is about doing something mathematical that leads to a conclusion.

You can’t crunch numbers and get any kind of conclusion from the numbers we have. It’s not possible.

More to the point, you keep bringing up Guild Wars 1 as an example of this working, without acknowledging that came out ten years ago, in a completely different market place.

It’s fine to have an opinion. Really, it’s great that you feel strongly. And your opinion might resonate more strongly if this game wasn’t actually successful. But saying it would be more successful your way is asking people to take a whole lot on faith.

Elthurien.8356:

Devata.6589:

It is nice to see that the HoT did manage to get numbers up again. It shows how people are more interested in expansions as in the Living Story approach as no LS was able to do that, while only the announcement of an expansion does. Of course also the sales will have helped a lot to attract new peoples and from existing players who did buy a second account.

At the same time I notice in game that many of the people who came back during the announcement already left again, coming back when HoT really gets released. So if HoT gets released in Q3 and there will be no special events until then I expect again lower income in Q2.

Big question is how HoT will be sold (I expect good, while not as good as it could have been because of some of the damage done) and how it performs the half a year after release (so basically Q4 or more Q1). That will be very important for the long-longevity for GW2. If with HoT they manage to get rid of the never ending grind, and get a fun game gain where collecting becomes fun game-play then this game might have a long life-spawn, if not, I expect it will scale down after that.

I’m a returning player (been afk 14 months until this week); the living story was a good concept, but the way it is interfaced is non-intuitive to returning players and to put it rather bluntly, I really don’t enjoy the way the personal story quests are implemented in GW2 compared to the standard MMO quest logs.

I love the way open world pve works in GW2, I love the renown tasks and the dynamic events, but I really don’t like the storyboard style of GW2 or the way it creates personal instances for you. I never really liked the NPC’s in the personal story either, it always seemed shallow to me, like a bad cartoon that makes you cringe every time someone speaks.

HoT expansion probably did grab my attention and pique my interest to come back for a look, but if the questing is going to be another story board style deal I probably wont buy it.

If you’re talking about two figures talking to each other against a backdrop, that ended with the personal story. Cut scenes now are quite different.

Sorry Jerus, but I can’t say that every game is about challenge, or challenge is what makes a game. You can play house as a kid and that’s a game, and it’s not about challenge. You can play a game of catch and that’s not challenging either. Some people play games to relax. In fact, just about every sport, as challenging as it is, also have people that play that sport just for fun.

I wonder how many people play Baseball competitive, as compared to how many people go and hit a ball around. They’re both games, but not everyone plays them competitively.

Many people play games to relax.

BrooksP.4318:

I don’t think the idea behind expansions+LS+gemstore is that terrible of an idea, at least from a business standpoint. However it doesn’t seem like Anet was prepared or set in a way to time it properly. It seems like their original model wasn’t working so they are rushing out HoT which seems to be too little too late. From what they’ve released so far a HoT style expansion should have came out a year or two ago. Now granted I haven’t really followed GW2 development or business strategy so unsure if intended or not, nor do I know how good/large their dev team is.

However doing expansions longterm, with LS as midterm, and gem store to fill the gaps isn’t a bad business model if they can keep it up. The only problem is the cost for the expansions/LS and the rate of development.

Releasing $30-$40 expansions each year will drive more players away then retain, it would have to be every 2-3 years. Depending on scale of the expansion. Living Story would have to be rolled into later expansions to avoid massive “catch up” costs for new players, and their cosmetic system needs to be more encouraging to use.

Though this is all speculation, hindsight, and personal opinion.

Anet was experimenting with different business models. It seemed they wanted to try something quite different, which was the first season of the Living World. Though a small percentage of players like it (I was among those), it had several flaws, at least one of them “fatal”. You couldn’t replay the content. This is why so little content seems to have been added to the game. One entire season of the Living Story has been and gone.

That left Anet with a dilemma. It’s my opinion that that was when the expansion became a necessity…not before that. I’m guessing that’s when work began in Earnest.

They were always working on stuff in the background anyway, some of which would have been released with an expansion, if they had decided to go that route. Obviously, once the decision was made, much of that stuff would have to be held back.

I’m pretty sure if Season 1 had worked, Anet wouldn’t be here now. Again, just an opinion.

@Devata

You almost got it now. You say, if we crunch numbers we’d get this as if it were some sort of fact. You’re the one claiming to know something definitively.

Yes, my answers are on the forums are we generally don’t. It’s opinion. It’s guessing. And I wouldn’t mind (and don’t mind) when you express those opinions as opinions. But when you make some sort of claim that if you crunched the numbers, you’d get this, that’s just fantasy. Saying so doesn’t make it so.

Who’s more reasonable? The person who says something as a fact that’s absolutely unprovable, or the person who calls them on it?

Guild Wars 2 is one of the more successful MMORPGs on the market right now. It’s more successful than just about every other western MMO. In fact, I can’t think of a Western MMO in the last five years that is as successful.

You’re saying they’re be more successful, with no real evidence, fueled by this cash shop vendetta you’ve got going. Almost every thread you enter eventually turns into a cash shop attack, or a condemnation of a successful business model. Anet has now produced back to back successful games, probably two more games than you’ve produced.

Sure I call people when they make definitive statements that are simply opinions. That is, as you’ve said, my right.

This game is successful. There’s no way to tell it would be more successful, but in my opinion, if the system had been working as well as you think, Anet would have stuck with it. They didn’t.

Perhaps you can think of a compelling reason why Anet would abandon it if it were actually working?

Fenrir, you’re right…and you’re wrong. You’re right in saying that anyone can go to the end of the game, skip pretty much everything and do it all at 80. The problem is, how does a new player KNOW that that’s what they’re “supposed to do”.

If you do no storymode dungeon at all leveling, but you do do the personal story, the last step of that story is the last story mode dungeon. The final chapter. During which, if you have the cut scene, someone is thanking you for something you haven’t really done.

Sure once you know the whole situation you can make intelligent decisions, but the game wasn’t designed for you to do this. It sends you at mail at level 30 that you can do this dungeon. You can’t expect new players to completely ignore what the game is telling them.

The problem is, it doesn’t matter what you, or I, or anyone on the forums think. We’re still a minority of the playerbase. Most people aren’t hanging out here or on the wiki. They’re in game playing, getting their information FROM playing.

And to those people, if they can’t get a group for their dungeon, they’ll miss it and just do the story….which ends in a dungeon…the last dungeon.

Some might say this is badly designed. You’re right when you say there’s a workaround. But by the time most players discover that, it’s already too late.

In Guild Wars 2 people tend to play specific professions for their flavor. There were already complaints by people about the Dragon Hunter not feeling like it fit the guardian. Just because you’d be happy with something that completely changes the established look and feel of a profession, doesn’t mean that most fans would be happy or go along with it.

I know when I play a necro, I play it because I want something dark and foreboding. When I play a guardian I want something along different lines.

I don’t know that I’d ever want to use what you’re suggesting on a necro because it would destroy my interpretation of the character I’ve spent this long developing.

@Devata

When you crunch the numbers? How? With what? Which numbers are you talking about.

The tiny bit of info we get from quarterly reports are just that. Tiny bits of info. We don’t have enough info to crunch the numbers and, more importantly, we have zero info on what would actually have happened if this had been done differently.

You’re so vested in your specific point of view, this anti-cash shop agenda, you don’t have the ability to admit it’s not possible to know that it would have been better your way. There’s no way anyone can know.

There is a possibility what you’ve been saying is correct but it’s just that. A possibility. But when you start throwing around sentences like: “When you crunch the numbers (and that’s all we have to go on) you conclude that the expansion model would have made them more money, and the fact that even an announcement of an expansion increases income only backs that up”…

I have to question everything else you say because it should be obvious we don’t have the numbers TO crunch. You’re making a whole bunch of assumptions starting with a specific prejudice. It’s like when politicians make a budget and overestimate income so they can spend more.

There’s simply no way to know. I wish you’d stop trying to make it sound like you have some mathematical proof of something when such proof is an impossibility.

I still maintain that a focus on the open world is exclusive to Guild Wars 2, at least in the sense of a modern MMO. Other MMOs may have an open world, but they don’t focus on it. Rift is another example of a game that has an open world, but it was just a way to get people into raids and dungeons. The more time and energy that a game company puts into dungeons and raids, the worse it is for people who don’t care about that stuff. But it’s not just the time invested.

Hard, competitive PvP and raiding and dungeon speed running all over something in common. They bring a group of people to MMOs that play competitively, instead of cooperatively. Most games doesn’t have truly cooperative PvE. Guild Wars 2 does. Even that has changed a bit, since some of the harder events that have come out pressure some players to yell at other players who are afk, not as good, don’t know what to do, don’t listen in map chat or whatever. I find these things make the game less fun to play. Not the people who are bad at the game but the drama that goes on when a good player feels the need to berate people they see as not pulling their weight. It takes the game down a notch for me. So the whole dungeon thing isn’t just let’s have everything. Because I’m not interested in everything. There are plenty of games that do have dungeons and center around them. I believe the success of this game is going to be focusing on what other games aren’t providing.

As for progression being a good or bad thing, you’re thinking of progression in any one way. I consider story progression progression as well. If I’m progressing through a story that’s progression too. So the type of progression I crave is not stat or power progression. But I still want to see myself moving forward somehow.

Most MMOs, in order to progress the stories, you have to play the dungeons and eventually raid. Not all but all the ones I’ve tried…and I’ve tried plenty.

Jerus.4350:

Vayne.8563:

Jerus.4350:

Vayne.8563:

Jerus.4350:

snip

Sure, except that every MMO I’ve played has ceased to satisfy me because of their focus. I believe that GW 2 has evolved to provide what the other MMOs don’t focus on. And sure it would be nice if Anet could provide everything, but I wouldn’t want to take away work from one thing to bring in something other games are doing fine.

I’m thinking Anet is trying to strengthen what makes this game different.

Ehh, EQ would (and still does I believe) put out about 12 open world zones with each expansion, this is where most people spend most of their time. In those they’ll have 1-3 group instances which only a handful get their own art, most are simply cutouts of the open world areas. Then on top they’ll have 1 raid per zone and a final raid zone only for raids, again most raids are done in instanced versions of the open world.

They put out a lot more content than GW2 (old graphics I’m sure are much cheaper/easier), but the point is they give a little bit of everything, and cut corners by doubling up on art.

Imagine if they took the Glint’s Lair zone and reworked it into a fractal/dungeon, no need for art time, big dip in resource costs. They could do the same with a cutout of the Maze portion of SW. I imagine they could have reworked all of Silverwastes into a Borderlands option for WvW as well, and maybe even found a portion to make a new PVP map out of.

This is the type of stuff I’d like to see. And GW2 is not the only game to have a focus on open world

It may not be the ONLY game to focus on the open world, but it’s surely the only themepark MMO that’s not centered on open world PvP combat that I’ve played. See I’m a PvE’er. I want a PvE MMO that focuses on the open world. I haven’t found many.

EQ isn’t focused on the open world. You can’t get max anything from the open world. The best gear isn’t from the open world. Eventually most people are funneled into dungeons and raiding. At least that’s how it was when I looked at it.

But who cares about best gear when the gear you can get accomplishes the goal just fine. In fact one of my big issues with the game was that getting raid geared trivialized the open world (which even as a raider was where I spent most of my time). Raid geared groups would pull half a zone and slaughter it just to keep entertained. And, it wasn’t “ohh they can get so many more rewards” it was more “man this is lame.”

I will say that the general player who were in open world hated my groups because as a raider we did lockdown half the open world. If we had multiple groups in the zone we basically locked it all down and they had no room to play. Again one of those issues with open world, but the stigma wasn’t as much about “kitten those raiders getting everything” as much as “this is pretty stupid that raiders don’t have their own zone to play in that’s fit for them.” Which they actually did for a few expansions until it became too much of a burden on the development.

I don’t meant to paint EQ as perfection, but Open World was where pretty much everyone spent most of their play time. Though as I said before, it wasn’t everyone’s focus, everybody loved different play types and kept playing for their particular preferences. That game also killed PVP by about 4 years in through poor choices and the refusal to split PVP and PVE skills/effects, a mistake I think this game is making as well but in reverse.

No one cares about the best gear if there are other ways to progression. Now I didn’t play EQ when it first came out, because I knew myself. I was working, had a family and couldn’t afford to addict myself to a game like that. So I passed it by.

By the time I started playing MMOs, WoW was the one people were playing but I’ve since tried many others.

In most games stats on gear IS progression. In most games that’s how you move your character forward. Most games didn’t downlevel you. Most games didn’t encourage you to go back to old zones. Most games didn’t give you a progression path that didn’t force you into instances. That’s just the way it is.

By the time I looked at EQ it was too dated to interest me, but EQ 2 was horrid. Guild Wars 2 is the first game to check most (but not all) of my boxes.

If I game were to come along to check more of my boxes, I’d be happy to play it…but I don’t see anything coming down the pike that particularly interests me.

Jerus.4350:

Vayne.8563:

Jerus.4350:

That’s why they should do it all A little flavor in different directions.

And I don’t think people are one dimensional either. Just because I enjoy dungeons the most doesn’t mean I don’t enjoy the fact that there is a ton of other content available. I’ve done all the LS stuff, not all the achievements though because I find many of them boring and I don’t care about AP and not overly fond of the rewards. And that also why I think metrics are tricky and misleading, because I’ll show up on the metrics for a lot of stuff, but if it weren’t for dungeons I wouldn’t have even bought the game much less still be around.

That’s what makes MMOs so great though, the vast gameplay. Every solid MMO I’ve played has their PVP with different types even, and their open world PVE stuff as well as instanced PVE stuff for more of a challenge, some large scale, some meant to solo. Just a diverse set of options that keeps people logging in and playing because even if they get bored of whawt they’re doing right then, they have options within the same game.

Sure, except that every MMO I’ve played has ceased to satisfy me because of their focus. I believe that GW 2 has evolved to provide what the other MMOs don’t focus on. And sure it would be nice if Anet could provide everything, but I wouldn’t want to take away work from one thing to bring in something other games are doing fine.

I’m thinking Anet is trying to strengthen what makes this game different.

Ehh, EQ would (and still does I believe) put out about 12 open world zones with each expansion, this is where most people spend most of their time. In those they’ll have 1-3 group instances which only a handful get their own art, most are simply cutouts of the open world areas. Then on top they’ll have 1 raid per zone and a final raid zone only for raids, again most raids are done in instanced versions of the open world.

They put out a lot more content than GW2 (old graphics I’m sure are much cheaper/easier), but the point is they give a little bit of everything, and cut corners by doubling up on art.

Imagine if they took the Glint’s Lair zone and reworked it into a fractal/dungeon, no need for art time, big dip in resource costs. They could do the same with a cutout of the Maze portion of SW. I imagine they could have reworked all of Silverwastes into a Borderlands option for WvW as well, and maybe even found a portion to make a new PVP map out of.

This is the type of stuff I’d like to see. And GW2 is not the only game to have a focus on open world

It may not be the ONLY game to focus on the open world, but it’s surely the only themepark MMO that’s not centered on open world PvP combat that I’ve played. See I’m a PvE’er. I want a PvE MMO that focuses on the open world. I haven’t found many.

EQ isn’t focused on the open world. You can’t get max anything from the open world. The best gear isn’t from the open world. Eventually most people are funneled into dungeons and raiding. At least that’s how it was when I looked at it.

Jerus.4350:

That’s why they should do it all A little flavor in different directions.

And I don’t think people are one dimensional either. Just because I enjoy dungeons the most doesn’t mean I don’t enjoy the fact that there is a ton of other content available. I’ve done all the LS stuff, not all the achievements though because I find many of them boring and I don’t care about AP and not overly fond of the rewards. And that also why I think metrics are tricky and misleading, because I’ll show up on the metrics for a lot of stuff, but if it weren’t for dungeons I wouldn’t have even bought the game much less still be around.

That’s what makes MMOs so great though, the vast gameplay. Every solid MMO I’ve played has their PVP with different types even, and their open world PVE stuff as well as instanced PVE stuff for more of a challenge, some large scale, some meant to solo. Just a diverse set of options that keeps people logging in and playing because even if they get bored of whawt they’re doing right then, they have options within the same game.

Sure, except that every MMO I’ve played has ceased to satisfy me because of their focus. I believe that GW 2 has evolved to provide what the other MMOs don’t focus on. And sure it would be nice if Anet could provide everything, but I wouldn’t want to take away work from one thing to bring in something other games are doing fine.

I’m thinking Anet is trying to strengthen what makes this game different.

DragonflyDusk.6582:

Malediktus.9250:

Its not elitisism, its a valid option if you are too lazy to make a group.

maha.7902:

Kal Spiro.9745:

Malediktus.9250:

They are already soloable, just takes some effort instead of steamrolling.

They are not soloable to the vast majority of players. Take your elitism somewhere else.

how is anything what malediktus said elitist?

how is “story mode dungeons are soloable, there’s just some effort involved” elitist in any way?

or are you just throwing the “e” word at any post you dislike?

Let’s all just all just through sweeping generalizations out there at each other.

Also, Kal Spiro has contested a few posts already, but because he used “elitist” once, apparently he’s out to get everyone that disagrees with him? Let’s not go down this road, it leads to nowhere.

Anyways, I would like to be able to actually see my character in story dungeon cutscenes, but unless I enter the dungeon first I can’t. And if more than one person in the group is in this situation some one is getting the short end of the stick. I personally like playing in groups, but some adjustment to this would be nice, like rotating who’s talking in each speaking part or something.

This was actually my biggest problem with Arah storymode. It’s the last step of the personal story (if you exclude the epilogue) and only 20% of the party gets to see themselves in the cut scenes.

It’s the only time in the personal story you’re required to group up at all, and it’s not only unfair, but it’s annoying to see another character, possibly a complete stranger, being thanked by Destiny’s Edge for bringing them together. It’s just bad.

maha.7902:

Kal Spiro.9745:

Malediktus.9250:

They are already soloable, just takes some effort instead of steamrolling.

They are not soloable to the vast majority of players. Take your elitism somewhere else.

how is anything what malediktus said elitist?

how is “story mode dungeons are soloable, there’s just some effort involved” elitist in any way?

or are you just throwing the “e” word at any post you dislike?

Elitist might be the wrong word, but the sentiment that the poster is attempting is valid. I can do a dungeon so everyone should be able to do one is just a terrible attitude. I can write a novel, so everyone should be able to and I have no sympathy for those who can’t.

Story mode dungeons are part of the story and you shouldn’t need to be a "good’ MMO player to experience the story. Yes, they’re not part of your personal story, but they surely are part of the story of the game. They teach you who the iconics are and how they relate to each other.

Solo players are left out of that (and there are more of them out there that most MMO players suspect). And many solo players are also people who don’t know metas, or stacking or LOS because they have less ways to learn that stuff and less ways to need that stuff.

There should be hard content in games that people need to group together to do, but it shouldn’t be something that is part of the story. Just my opinion of course.

Or people can I don’t know, find casual groups that don’t insist on the meta. Because I’ve run hundreds of dungeons and never once has anyone said I need to change weapons or I can’t use a weapon.

Maybe because I run with my guild. But on the few times I made ads on the LFG tool, I wrote casual run, all professions welcome. And no one ever complained about a profession or a build either.

Make your own group and try it yourself. There are as many people out there that don’t like the meta as those who like it. They just often do dungeons with their casual guilds.

phys.7689:

Vayne.8563:

As I see it, there are two things a lot of people here seem to be ignoring. Yes, the uptrend in sales over last quarter is marginal, but last quarter was also the Christmas season which means beating it in the next quarter can be misleading. Most games don’t beat the Christmas quarter at all, because ‘tis the season’.

And let’s not forget, a lot of the sales we’ve seen are at 25% of the price of the game that originally launched 2.5 years ago. In order for a sale today to match a single sale, two-four copies would have had to been sold. So that 3% is pretty kitten ed good.

Without new content it’s even more surprising, since we are in a content drought.

Six million dollars a month is pretty good for a 2.5 year old game, particularly one that’s not had an expansion.

Now, some people in this thread have drawn the conclusion that the expansion path, instead of the cash shop path, is THE way to go, because sales have tapered and the expansion is bringing more cash in…even just the expectation of the expansion.

This is a bad conclusion to draw. No one is saying that the expansion isn’t something you should have in addition to a subscription or cash shop. The expansion is obviously going to bring in more numbers.

However when Guild Wars 1 managed this with just an expansion every year, the entire complexion of the genre was different. Competition was minimal. Guild Wars was the only MMO type game at the time without a sub. There was very little competitive. More to the point, the entire industry has changed back then. Games cost more to make. Shelf space for computer games back then was how they sold. That’s not true anymore. Shelf space for computer games has gotten smaller and smaller over the years. Having that boxed product for a computer game at this point only minimally affects sales.

At the end of the day this game is successful in sea of games that have been less successful. Even Blade and Soul which made more money this quarter, reached that height by releasing the game is a brand new area.

Some people are arguing the game would be MORE successful if it was done differently, but no one knows. And that it’s successful at all in this climate is telling.

the last xmas quarter was a record low, i would hope they could outperform that.

It’s still Christmas, there were still sales. I’m not really sure why anyone things a game that gets older and older with no expansion is going to keep out performing itself.

It doesn’t work with almost anything. Books, movies, games on the whole, the vast vast majority of them, make less money as time goes on. That’s normal.

So yeah, a quarter on, out performing the previous quarter is a good thing.

Maybe it’s because I was in the publishing industry for so long that it seems very natural for books, games, or any type of entertainment to go down in revenue as the months and years ago on. It’s accounted for in business plans. The only thing that matters is whether the expectations of the business plan is met, not what a bunch of people on forum’s think.

From what we’ve seen from investor reports, Guild Wars 2 has always met or exceeded expectations, which means saying any quarter was the slowest is almost irrelevant even if it is true. What’s relevant is that according to the business plan put forward before launch, the game is meeting or exceed expectations.

If it weren’t, we’d have seen layoffs.

Jerus.4350:

Vayne.8563:

Dungeons never really interested me. I play MMOs because they are massively multiplayer and dungeons aren’t. It’s a different thought process.

I have beaten every dungeon in the game and if dungeons were introduced, I’m sure I’d play them. But at the end of the day, the very thing that makes an MMO an MMO is the persistent world. Almost every MMO I’ve played prior to this has been centered around dungeons.

I’m really happy to find at least one MMO centered around the open world.

There’s a reason they’re centered around dungeons, open world content has major flaws (zerging and conflicting player goals/competition being the main ones).

If ANet had a solution for those problem I’d be right there with you, but so far they’ve failed to make any real headway on either.

It certainly is the open world that makes an MMO an MMO. Large scale events, an expansive world, all cool things. But when it comes to the content that you want to push your players with, it simply can’t be open world… unless ANet has come up with some new never before tried idea to implement this “challenging group content.” I can’t help but feel it’s goign to be another TT or VW, which just doesn’t live up to that title.

I don’t know about this. The marionette fight did push players. Admittedly it’s harder to find that balance in the open world and it’s more frustrating for some people because you have to depend on strangers.

On the other hand, I have many of the same problems with instances in games. I hate pugging because there are enough bad eggs in the community to ruin my enjoyment of games. I’d prefer to run dungeons with my guild.

You’ll find a whole lot of people who have, and have always had, problems with instanced content.

My biggest problem with it is that it’s always the same and unchanging. Even in Guild Wars 1, when I walked into the “open world”, I knew exactly what would spawn where. When I did vanquishes repeatedly there were no surprises.

The first season of the Living Story, which a lot of people complained about, changed the open world.

So I’d say that there’s a division in the playerbase on many levels here. For example, some people only care or mostly care about being challenged. I don’t think that’s the largest percentage of the player base, but those players are there. If that’s your main concern, it’s something that’s harder to do in the open world.

However, there are a lot of players (not sure again how many, but a lot since I have a guild full of them) that don’t play for challenge. They play for experience and exploration and hanging out with friends.

Some people like to solo (a lot more than most think) and those people generally don’t prefer dungeons.

Start adding the groups together and I wonder if there are more people who like/play dungeons, or more people who avoid them?

I don’t have a direct answer, but again, the open world in this game, though less challenging, is infinitely more entertaining to me than any of the dungeons.

As I see it, there are two things a lot of people here seem to be ignoring. Yes, the uptrend in sales over last quarter is marginal, but last quarter was also the Christmas season which means beating it in the next quarter can be misleading. Most games don’t beat the Christmas quarter at all, because ‘tis the season’.

And let’s not forget, a lot of the sales we’ve seen are at 25% of the price of the game that originally launched 2.5 years ago. In order for a sale today to match a single sale, two-four copies would have had to been sold. So that 3% is pretty kitten ed good.

Without new content it’s even more surprising, since we are in a content drought.

Six million dollars a month is pretty good for a 2.5 year old game, particularly one that’s not had an expansion.

Now, some people in this thread have drawn the conclusion that the expansion path, instead of the cash shop path, is THE way to go, because sales have tapered and the expansion is bringing more cash in…even just the expectation of the expansion.

This is a bad conclusion to draw. No one is saying that the expansion isn’t something you should have in addition to a subscription or cash shop. The expansion is obviously going to bring in more numbers.

However when Guild Wars 1 managed this with just an expansion every year, the entire complexion of the genre was different. Competition was minimal. Guild Wars was the only MMO type game at the time without a sub. There was very little competitive. More to the point, the entire industry has changed back then. Games cost more to make. Shelf space for computer games back then was how they sold. That’s not true anymore. Shelf space for computer games has gotten smaller and smaller over the years. Having that boxed product for a computer game at this point only minimally affects sales.

At the end of the day this game is successful in sea of games that have been less successful. Even Blade and Soul which made more money this quarter, reached that height by releasing the game is a brand new area.

Some people are arguing the game would be MORE successful if it was done differently, but no one knows. And that it’s successful at all in this climate is telling.

Dungeons never really interested me. I play MMOs because they are massively multiplayer and dungeons aren’t. It’s a different thought process.

I have beaten every dungeon in the game and if dungeons were introduced, I’m sure I’d play them. But at the end of the day, the very thing that makes an MMO an MMO is the persistent world. Almost every MMO I’ve played prior to this has been centered around dungeons.

I’m really happy to find at least one MMO centered around the open world.

nexxe.7081:

Vayne.8563:

I’ve been watching this debate with some interest. Like many of you, I wish there were more content in the game. By the same token, I think those who think 2 week updates and an expansion can be maintained at the same time are fooling themselves.

Players believed their “A team” was working on the expansion for 2 years now, while the other teams were working on the living story. If this was so, the expansion would’ve been in beta already.

By your logic, they weren’t working on an expansion this whole time. So which was it? An expansion being worked on for 2 years, or was it shortly after Season 2 started? We just don’t know. That blows the whole theory apart if you’re correct.

In my opinion, they announced HoT way too early, and now all the hype it generated is deflated, and it’s causing the playerbase to get anxious without any content in the interim period.

There’s more to the expansion than the expansion itself. Some things from the expansion are being introduced before the expansion, which was also stuff being worked on.

Nothing you’ve said blows apart my theory because there’s nothing really specific in the theory.

Anet said they’ve been working on big projects in the background all along. I believe that. We’ve seen some of them. Anet also said they didn’t know how those things would be delivered.

For example the specialization system is actually coming before the expansion but it still takes people to work on it. Only the elite specializations are coming with the expansion.

You should spend less time trying to disprove me (because I’m making extremely general statements that really can’t be disproved) and more time paying attention to what I’m replying to, because usually that’s why I post. I reply to people who say there’s no expansion being worked on.

There were several side projects also worked on at the same time. Now, the team that has been doing Living Story might be needed for other things, like the new story that’s coming in the expansion.

So I don’t really know what you’re on about.

Edit: The announcement of Hot might have been for any number of reasons, including annoucing it before ESO went free to play or because there was so much pressure from the fan base to announce SOMETHING.

We’ll never really know any of this stuff. It’s ALL just speculation unless Anet tells us.

Rauderi.8706:

Vayne.8563:

I did a poll on reddit a long time back. It seems that far more people who started the game as a Sylvari liked Trahearne than people who started the game as other races. This is because he was there pretty much from the beginning and we knew who he was. His entrance into the story for other races is relatively abrupt.

I started as a Sylvari and so have no problem with Trahearne. My only real issue with him was when he said “this won’t end well” and they’ve removed that from the game.

That actually baffles me. Playing through the Sylvari storyline, a lot of people had a disjointed experience:

• Help get Caladbolg back. Somewhat meet Trahearne.
• dotdotdot, join Order.
• Meet Trahearne again.
• “Hey Trahearne! I remember you! I got you Caladbolg!”
• “Hi. I am pleased to meet you.” As if it were his first time.

It’s jarring and disappointing, as if Trahearne couldn’t be bothered to remember the character who did the Pale Tree a huge favor.

Well there are three starter storylines and at least one of them, Trahearne is there very early like level 3. At any rate, the poll probably didn’t have enough respondents to say for sure, but the amount of people who disliked Trahearne who weren’t Sylvari at the start of play was considerably higher…like night and day higher.

According to the OP, Guild Wars 1 was pay to win because as you bought expansions you got more/better/different elites, not to mention classes. And according to the OP, WoW, Lotro and most MMOs are pay to win, even the subscription ones, because they all sell expansions, without which you can’t reach level cap. According the OP, only a free to play game could be truly free from pay to win because any other game you have to buy to win.

I don’t think the OP knows what pay to win means.

I’ve been watching this debate with some interest. Like many of you, I wish there were more content in the game. By the same token, I think those who think 2 week updates and an expansion can be maintained at the same time are fooling themselves. Particularly those who compare Guild Wars 2 with Guild Wars 1. They’re completely different games. MMOs are not lobby games. Games that are pathed are easier to right anyway. And everyone knows the number of people who are going to show up at each encounter.

Propechies had 209 quests and 25 missions. That was prophecies. Guild Wars 2 had 1500 dynamic events at launch. If you add all the quests together from all four Guild Wars 1 products, you still have more dynamic events at launch than Guild Wars 1 had quests. So comparing these games is pointless. Not to mention, many will say having more programmers slows things down, rather than speeds it up.

From my point of view, the only reasonable thing people ask for is the content that was previously cyclical. I’m not sure why Anet can’t open SAB or the Queen’s Pavillion, I have no idea, but I’m firmly against them opening the Bazaare of the Four Winds. That ship has sailed (literally). Without spoilers, the game’s story simply doesn’t permit that to happen.

Orimidu.9604:

All good points. Thanks for the input, guys. I think at the MINIMUM, they could add some new conversation dialogue between NPCs in the outposts. Something that starts with “With Zhaitan gone, what happens now?” and the conversations providing extra lore to the ongoing Orr events. It would be rather simple for ANet to record some conversations and slap them in a patch—the only trigger to activate them would be completion of Victory or Death.

Ideally, some new events to reflect the passage of time would go in. But this will likely not happen.

The problem is, Zhaitan isn’t gone for new players. They’d have to at least phase that dialogue. Is the amount of work it would take to accomplish that really worth Anet’s time?

I’m thinking it won’t happen because time right now is budgeted to the expansion and getting that ready. MMOs are almost always better off moving forward than changing what they have.

I did a poll on reddit a long time back. It seems that far more people who started the game as a Sylvari liked Trahearne than people who started the game as other races. This is because he was there pretty much from the beginning and we knew who he was. His entrance into the story for other races is relatively abrupt.

I started as a Sylvari and so have no problem with Trahearne. My only real issue with him was when he said “this won’t end well” and they’ve removed that from the game.

Neural.1824:

nexxe.7081:

Alexander.9810:

• The fact that you have not committed to a release date for HoT and still hype it up while it’s in early beta shows that you guys do not have the confidence to set a date, do not have enough staff to have that confidence, and will probably release the expansion “unfinished,” which might be a subjective word to you, but, again, FFXIV Heavensward will be a “finished” product. They’ve already gone into detail about what you’ll be getting, a lot more than your cute little “we’re nowhere done yet, even though it’s been 3 years to work on an expansion, but here’s where we think we are and where we think we’re going.”

This is the only part i agree with, but the rest of your post is biased, or unworthy of replying to.

It’s really astonishing that Anet hyped an expansion, with nothing else to do in between.

They get everyone hyped, with no release date in sight. Do they really think people are going to wait? The hype for HoT is dead now. It might be alive within the community, but i’m talking about outside of it. They should have kept interest in the game with upcoming content updates after the HoT announcement, but they failed at that. it’s going to be almost 6 months since the announcement, with nothing to look forward to. GW2 is so boring right now.

I think this ties in with his commentary about Anet being short staffed. Everyone is, apparently, working on HoT right now, so everything else is virtually ignored unless it’s a raging fire. Maybe if NCSoft wasn’t siphoning off all the profit to appease Nexon there could be more devs.

To appease Nexon. You’re apparently not following this game at all, are you? Anet would do NOTHING to appease Nexon. They’ve never done anything TO appease Nexon. Nexon doesn’t like how the game is run and wants changes and Anet refused to make those changes.

A bit more reality and a bit less conspiracy theory is needed on this forum.

moony.5780:

@lordkrall

I played it even more than 3 years to be accurate..bcs i played it in the first beta.

i wanted to write this..but i though people know the beta started 3 years ago …so i would look stupid^^

But the betas were beta weekends and only added all up a few days to your play time. Just saying.

rapthorne.7345:

I’m hoping festival of the four winds, which the wiki said was may last year

Of all the possible things to hope for, that’s the most hopeless. The festival of the four winds was what happened when the Zephyrites visited Kryta to trade. Due to events in the Living Story, that’s just not a possibility.

It would pretty much break the game’s story.

This has been brought up before on these forums, many times. Many, many times. There are usually a couple of people who agree that downlevelng is not a good thing, but a boatload of posters who think it’s a great thing. I’m one of those latter posters.

One of the things I can’t stand about most MMOs is that I’m stuck in a few end game zones and that’s basically it. In Guild Wars 2, I can go anywhere. The world is my oyster. Downleveling is truly one of the better features of this game, and without it, I don’t know how likely I am to stay.

What’s the point of creating an entire world and wasting most of it? It never made sense to me before and it doesn’t make sense to me now.

Tried FF XIV, thought the community sucked. Just my experience. I’m sure there are nice people playing.

As for anything else, that old style, quest hub, static quest thing was unplayable for me. And if this game had a trinity I’d never do a dungeon again.

Anet didn’t give a release date for the original Guild Wars 2 even after they started the preordering process. It has nothing to do with confidence. kittenumption is bad.