Guild Wars 2

NoTrigger.8396:

Healix.5819:

NoTrigger.8396:

nexxe.7081:

Just look at Wildstar for example. Hardcore raiding game that is on life support. The majority didn’t want that so they left in droves.

this is bs. timetravel said statistics show that players who entered dungeons or raids in wildstar were more likely to stay.

They also said that ~60% of the player base played solo. WildStar’s ultimate failure was that they only focused on challenging group content.

they did not only focus on challenging group content. there is plenty of stuff to do for the casual player. more than enough tbh. most people who claim wildstar failed because of the challenging content didnt even make it to 50.

few days ago a guy on reddit wanted to tell me he leveled to 12 and the dungeons were too hard. funny, you cant even enter a dungeon at level 12

Funny that isn’t what the Wildstar devs said about it.

Tachenon.5270:

Vayne.8563:

That’s why I keep saying and that’s what you keep ignoring.

Will the NPE players stay for HoT?

Why wouldn’t they? I have NPE players in my guild who will.

Avipt.9632:

But from what ive understand, these World masterys or what they where called, seemed more gimicy or some fun little perk lite gliding or something, It didt feel like it had a real impact on your character in how you play him/her etc. Since we didt get more skill slots or whatever to spice things up im curious how this expansion is gonna feel like an expansion and not a big patch. I dunno i want to stick to this game so bad, but there i just that little thing that keeps me from playing long sessions :P

Masteries will absolutely open up more content. Opening more content is something to play for.

timmyf.1490:

Sure, Vayne, most of us get that there’s enough challenge in this game for many people. The problem is this: if you only play 5 hours a week, you still probably haven’t done all the content that exists NOW. So you don’t need more content, at least not as much as somebody who plays 30-40 hours and has mastered all the existing content.

The request for challenging content is coming from and meant for players who either invest a ton of time or are just naturally more skillful at games. They don’t have anything made for them, apart from maybe high level Fractals and a small handful of dungeon paths, and even those are too easy.

There is already a TON of easy and lightly challenging content in this game and very little challenging content. Forget build diversity, I want challenge diversity.

I agree with you. I want to do stuff more challenging than we have now as well. Not all the time, but some of the time. That’s not really my angle at all.

I’m just not sure I want that challenging content to be instanced. For example, I liked the Marionette fight better than I’ve liked any instance in the game.

Tachenon.5270:

Vayne.8563:

I’ve already told you and you’ve already ignored it. I know people who do like challenging content that were slow starters. I don’t care if you believe me or not, but it’s true.

What I think most people want is challenging content that they can beat without devoting their lives to it. Because everyone has different levels of skill. So what’s challenging to them may not be challenging to you.

Just because people have different levels of what they find challenging doesn’t mean they don’t want challenge. They may, however, not want YOUR challenge.

Challenge isn’t a objective, it’s subjective.

I don’t know who you’re responding to here, because you don’t seem to be responding to anything I’ve said. I’m not talking about what constitutes ‘challenging’ content, or what I personally find challenging, nor am I contesting your honesty. Where is that coming from?

I’ll try once more, even though I don’t know how I can make it any more plain than I already have.

Anet changed the starting part of the game in an attempt to retain more new players. They did this by simplifying things. This implies that the sort of player they want to retain likes simplified things.

Now, they’re talking about adding more ‘challenging’ content with HoT. Who is this ‘challenging’ content FOR? The new players retained by NPE? Those players for whom they expressly changed the starting part of the game? If those players stayed with the game because they liked the simplified content early on, does it follow that they — the majority, not just the handful of exceptions you know personally — will want ‘challenging’ content now? And if not, what happens then?

Are there enough old players left for HoT?

I disagree that simplifying the beginning of something means that people it’s done for like simplified things. I think that’s a generalization that’s NOT TRUE. My experience tells me it’s not. In spite of the fact that it take some people longer to get there, some of those people DO get there. At which point, those people will play harder content. But they can’t get there if they leave at the start.

You’re just making an assumption that people are used to this sort of game or MMOs and they can make the jump to it easily. Anet’s changes are more than just making the game easier. They’re slowing down the rate at which someone experiences new stuff, mostly the first time they play.

Now you’re right in that some of those people won’t want difficult content. But you can’t talk for all of those people. Some people who start off slow WILL end up playing difficult content.

That’s why I keep saying and that’s what you keep ignoring.

Tachenon.5270:

Vayne.8563:

Tachenon.5270:

Vayne.8563:

Tachenon.5270:

Perhaps anet should rescind the NPE to prepare new players for all this upcoming ‘challenging’ content. Otherwise, they are moving the game in opposing directions. If the early game is designed for people who are allegedly confused by things like feeding cows, and the end game is designed for people who like participating in ‘coordinated zergfests’, then where do the twain meet?

Is there some hidden correlation between entertaining cows and succeeding at Triple Trouble?

I didn’t realize those changes in the 1-15 zones negated anything that happens after. Hell if they play through the story, both Drytop and Silverwastes have their share of challenges that will teach players how to play.

Of course, that’s assuming people will learn how to play which doesn’t always happen.

The changes in the 1-15 zones were made specifically to negate something which allegedly came after, that being people not staying with the game, due, evidently, to those introductory portions being too confusing for many new players.

If anet felt it was necessary to simplify the introductory portions just to get people to keep playing, why would they think the people retained due to that simplification would want more ‘challenging’ content later on?

It’s called a learning curve for a reason. Some people take more time to invest and when they do they do want to go on…but they still need that time up front. I know this because I’ve seen it with people in my guild. Some of them take a very long time to get better at playing the game, but many of them (not all of them) do make that jump. And most of us will never be the solo dungeon crowd, but we can certainly play the game and become competent at it, even if it takes us longer.

The problem Anet had was that some people couldn’t get in at ground level, or didn’t stay long enough to think they could make that progress. There’s very little more frustrating to some people than not being able to start something at all. Sometimes people need that extra push.

But stereotyping all people who start more slowly as people who’ll never want to do better is simply wrong. A percentage of people will get better if they’re allowed the opportunity to do so. Sometimes it means finding someone to show you the ropes or finding the right guild, but first you have to stay long enough for that to happen.

Challenging content is going to be different to everyone anyway, but there were plenty of people in my guild who couldn’t beat Lupi, who now go through him without dying.

It’s not about learning curves or about easing people into the game and watching them blossom into MMO wunderkinds joyfully soloing Tequatl later. It’s about what people want from the game. If people didn’t want any sort of challenge in the early stages (oh, I get it, I pick this food up, take it to the cow, and… ah hah!) then they probably won’t want it later.

Dramatization:

Anet: Here, new player, nice easy stuff! See how fun? Dance with the cows!
Player: Ooh! Ahh! Cows! I’m sticking with this game!

Later…

Anet: Hey, hey, we have some challenging HOT content for you!

I’ve already told you and you’ve already ignored it. I know people who do like challenging content that were slow starters. I don’t care if you believe me or not, but it’s true.

What I think most people want is challenging content that they can beat without devoting their lives to it. Because everyone has different levels of skill. So what’s challenging to them may not be challenging to you.

Just because people have different levels of what they find challenging doesn’t mean they don’t want challenge. They may, however, not want YOUR challenge.

Challenge isn’t a objective, it’s subjective.

Forum bug 1 – Vayne 0

Tachenon.5270:

Vayne.8563:

Tachenon.5270:

Perhaps anet should rescind the NPE to prepare new players for all this upcoming ‘challenging’ content. Otherwise, they are moving the game in opposing directions. If the early game is designed for people who are allegedly confused by things like feeding cows, and the end game is designed for people who like participating in ‘coordinated zergfests’, then where do the twain meet?

Is there some hidden correlation between entertaining cows and succeeding at Triple Trouble?

I didn’t realize those changes in the 1-15 zones negated anything that happens after. Hell if they play through the story, both Drytop and Silverwastes have their share of challenges that will teach players how to play.

Of course, that’s assuming people will learn how to play which doesn’t always happen.

The changes in the 1-15 zones were made specifically to negate something which allegedly came after, that being people not staying with the game, due, evidently, to those introductory portions being too confusing for many new players.

If anet felt it was necessary to simplify the introductory portions just to get people to keep playing, why would they think the people retained due to that simplification would want more ‘challenging’ content later on?

It’s called a learning curve for a reason. Some people take more time to invest and when they do they do want to go on…but they still need that time up front. I know this because I’ve seen it with people in my guild. Some of them take a very long time to get better at playing the game, but many of them (not all of them) do make that jump. And most of us will never be the solo dungeon crowd, but we can certainly play the game and become competent at it, even if it takes us longer.

The problem Anet had was that some people couldn’t get in at ground level, or didn’t stay long enough to think they could make that progress. There’s very little more frustrating to some people than not being able to start something at all. Sometimes people need that extra push.

But stereotyping all people who start more slowly as people who’ll never want to do better is simply wrong. A percentage of people will get better if they’re allowed the opportunity to do so. Sometimes it means finding someone to show you the ropes or finding the right guild, but first you have to stay long enough for that to happen.

Challenging content is going to be different to everyone anyway, but there were plenty of people in my guild who couldn’t beat Lupi, who now go through him without dying.

tovadaun.6304:

I don’t know if this has been brought up, there’s way too many pages to sift through…
I do not care for the new Personal Story Notification overriding all other Map Notifications.
I was lead to believe that completing the Personal Story was a choice, not a demand. However, if you do not complete the current chapter in your Personal story- at any level- the icon for the Personal story will override any and all compass guidance on your navigation. You no longer see if there’s a WP “over there” or undiscovered locations… Nothing. Just that blasted green warp star telling you to go do your PS.
Please, give a way to turn it off. Even if it’s on by default, I’m ok w that.
I have done all the Asura PS’s already, I don’t feel the need to do them again. Until I want to. Constantly pulling up my map every 2 seconds to look for the next WP while clearing- feels like it’s defeating the purpose of the compass in the first place (why even have the clutter if I just pull up my map every 2 seconds?).
Just my opinion.
Happy Day.

You can change this by going into options. On the first page of options you’ll see a box near the top called “content guide”. You can hide the personal story using that box and just use it for world completion.

Tachenon.5270:

Perhaps anet should rescind the NPE to prepare new players for all this upcoming ‘challenging’ content. Otherwise, they are moving the game in opposing directions. If the early game is designed for people who are allegedly confused by things like feeding cows, and the end game is designed for people who like participating in ‘coordinated zergfests’, then where do the twain meet?

Is there some hidden correlation between entertaining cows and succeeding at Triple Trouble?

I didn’t realize those changes in the 1-15 zones negated anything that happens after. Hell if they play through the story, both Drytop and Silverwastes have their share of challenges that will teach players how to play.

Of course, that’s assuming people will learn how to play which doesn’t always happen.

There won’t be any GvG in guild halls. That much we can deduce from what’s been said. But we know very little else about them. Anet will reveal them when they’ve scheduled the reveal and not before.

I have had quite a few people come back to the guild lately and they’ve all been happy they can jump right in and start playing.

Black lion chests are no more exploitive than baseball cards used to be. Every year you’d buy packs of cards, over and over again to get the players you wanted. This type of thing isn’t new. It’s not just Guild Wars 2. It’s not just MMOs.

Companies have been plying this trade of getting people to buy random packs of things to get specific things for a long time.

The only real difference is the ease of access, since no one sold baseball cards in your house.

This is why most people buy weapons when they are on sale for 1 ticket, which is how every weapon set is released at the start. It’s cheaper to just farm gold and buy the weapons off the TP though.

maddoctor.2738:

Vayne.8563:

@maddoctor

That doesn’t really address my concern. Essentially you’d be guaranteeing I’d have to either pug, or join a bigger guild. There’s no way I’d get 40 people in my guild on at the same time, all wanting to do a raid.

This would be a deal breaker, for me at least.

Isn’t this how it is done with TT, VW, Tequatl etc? If they make these “raids” like an instanced version of TT then there shouldn’t be a problem, you will only need to join the TS of gw2community (or a similar one) and follow their lead in the raid.

That’s why I’m asking for a large upper limit and not something like 10 or even 20, so it’s more open and we won’t have “looking for zerker” posts about it.

I doubt their “raids” will be like the raids of other MMORPGs it’s Anet we are talking about. I hope they reveal how they are going to work as soon as possible so we can all see what their vision is like.

I honestly can’t see this stuff being instanced, but I guess we’ll see soon enough. I prefer it not instanced though. As it stands right now, I don’t have to join a big guild to be on a server with a big guild and yes, I’m not pugging. No one can tell me to leave..or at least, no one can enforce it.

@maddoctor

That doesn’t really address my concern. Essentially you’d be guaranteeing I’d have to either pug, or join a bigger guild. There’s no way I’d get 40 people in my guild on at the same time, all wanting to do a raid.

This would be a deal breaker, for me at least.

The thing you’re looking for is masteries. They give you more and better skills. It’s something to play for besides higher stats (and I think it’s better than higher stats).

Fernling.1729:

CodeHavoc.7926:

Valento.9852:

Teq and TT can’t be considered challenging, all it takes is a crap load of players (WAY more than raids, mind you).

It took nearly a month to figure out the mechanics to Teq since no one knew how to dodge the waves properly, the poison pools at the time pretty much two shotted you without the help of turrets, and there was a limited time to even kill him, even when there was 100 people FULLY participating. Go back in the forums far enough and you’ll see some players at the time crying for a nerf. Not too sure on TT since my server seems to be the least organized for that.

If I remember correctly, Tequatl was defeated in less than 24 hours after the update. That doesn’t speak challenging to me.

It was more than 24 hours. And it was defeated by a group of 150 organized players that were all on voice chat. For weeks after, servers still failed Tequatl regularly.

aceboogie.4031:

I agree with almost everything you said. unfortunately the care-bears rule this forum so you wont get many like ourselves.

What people don’t understand is most of what you said is easily manageable but having an option to opt out.

Anet could make 1 new map pk enabled so the people that want no competition can not zone there. Also true for the world chat…just turn it off duh.

GvG should’ve been a thing in September 2012 . No clue why its not…

The reason the OP and most like myself that agree don’t GO TO ANOTHER GAME is that most of gw2 is great, the fight mechanics is why i stay, it would be phenomenal to put it to more use in a pk map.

Lastly most people that feel like this likely left already bc of all this and having all new content taken away bc they were special events that the lore wont allow back.

I see. So I should turn off map chat and not get event notifications because some people want to act like children? No, I think that’s probably not right.

And no, carebears don’t rule this forum…carebears rule this game. Proud to be a carebear. If it means that I’m a nice guy, who would rather play cooperatively with people than beat the hell out of them, sure I’ll wear it. Happy to.

The PvE in this game was designed to be cooperative. As for changing things not affecting us, well, it does affect us. Because all those other games have options to turn off PvP and whatnot and they all still suck because design decisions are made around that open world PvP that affect everyone.

And since I don’t need my PvE being affected by open world PvP (there’s already too many PvE changes that have been dictated by PvP), then I’m happy to not have it at all.

Saying something won’t affect other people doesn’t mean it won’t.

cranos.5913:

Vayne.8563:

Way to ignore what people fear about raids. I won’t repeat it, because I’ve said it already, but this is pretty disingenuous. If you think raids don’t affect a game, it means you like them. I’ve left every raiding game, because raids spill over into other areas of the game, particularly when it comes to rewards.

Sometimes the truth hurts.

Anet is notoriously bad for rewards. At best the raids would have unique skins, at worst a couple of gold. If you fear the name raid so much, let’s call it a dungeon and oh look, you can already see what kind of rewards those get. Maybe that’s putting it a bit too simplistic but people thinking “gear grind” or other obvious rewards from other games have nothing to fear in the first place. They won’t do it, they won’t even raise the level cap, so it’s all just wild speculation based on absolutely nothing.

Well there’s a difference between a raid and a dungeon. Getting 5 people together for a dungeon is a lot easier than getting 20 people together for a raid, or even 10. So now, you take every medium sized guild and pretty much tell them to pug. Which is bad because not everyone wants to or likes to pug. So it forces people into bigger guilds if they want that skin.

The problem is finding people that play casually, that aren’t competitive elitists to do that content. The harder the content, the harder it is for people to find reasonable people to work with them to do it. You just get people who want to get it done faster and faster. It definitely divides the playerbase into have and have nots.

I wonder if you even realize how many people in other games raided for the rewards, even though they really didn’t like it.

Dinks.2478:

There are basically two opinions here.

1. I want raids, it will benefit me and harm nobody else who doesn’t want them.

2. I don’t want raids, I hope the people that do want them don’t get them even though it doesn’t have anything to do with me and I can simply not do them and continue doing the stuff I do enjoy.

1 just wants content they would enjoy more and 2 just wants to be selfish jerks.

Way to ignore what people fear about raids. I won’t repeat it, because I’ve said it already, but this is pretty disingenuous. If you think raids don’t affect a game, it means you like them. I’ve left every raiding game, because raids spill over into other areas of the game, particularly when it comes to rewards.

Sometimes the truth hurts.

Valento.9852:

Vayne.8563:

Valento.9852:

Vayne.8563:

Valento.9852:

Vayne.8563:

Valento.9852:

Vayne.8563:

Sure it’s feasible. Let’s hope they don’t hide all the best skins behind raiding though, or people like me will feel we have to raid to play the game, to get those skins, the one thing we didn’t have to do before.

Raiding people don’t just want challenge, they want reward for challenge…at least many of them have asked for that. Start gating skins behind the hardest content in the game and people will want the “best” or coolest looking skins. And if you don’t want to raid you then have to choose to raid, or not have those skins.

Dungeons weren’t quite as bad, and still some people had problems with that. Of course, now there’s a PvP track that allows you to get dungeon rewards, so you at least have another option. But raiders also tend to want exclusive, unique rewards. Then you end up again with the haves and have nots. If the haves happen to be a smaller group, and the have nots is a much bigger group. you’ll end up kittening off your core players.

It doesn’t HAVE TO happen like that, but it sure could. And from what I’ve seen of what raiders want reward wise, that’s where the problem lies.

Yeah, could, you must agree that’s on ANet hands though.

As is whether or not they make raids. That’s also in their hands.

That was not the point of my posts, my point is that the excuses given for not implementing raids are too much biased and anticipated, and are a pure contradiction to ANet core philosophies about gear treadmill and making something mandatory. People shouldn’t be questioning these two points and basing their opinions on them (which they are doing).

And the point of my posts are that the raid “lobby” is so loud and so insistent that it can affect the direction of games, or at very least convince other people that they’re some sort of huge majority…which I don’t think they are.

Nothing I say will stop Anet from making raids if that’s what they want to do. But my comfort levels would go down if raiding was introduced. It would certainly have to be done carefully. I think we might be seeing a completely new type of raid, and as such, maybe it doesn’t need to be called a raid.

That would solve a lot of problems.

Vayne, I just don’t get why your comfort levels would go down and why the name kind of bother you, and the others for that matter. I too think it’s not major priority, what I can’t digest is the way people perceive their introduction and constantly retaliate with (excuse me the word) nosense excuses. Most of the times they’re not even constructive. IMO if you don’t like certain stuff and aren’t going to critique in a constructive way, then you shouldn’t be babbling for refusal at all.

Call it however you want, just don’t deny people aren’t requesting, and don’t judge beforehand stating it’s bad before knowing how ANet will implement their raids. Things that didn’t quite work well and fell into oblivion or were removed from the game include: Raid on the Capricon pvp map, Obsidian Sanctum (few uses), and current trait system. The devs are bold enough to try and remake stuff, or remove them if they don’t feel it’s right, they’re not afraid to try, and they will, given certain constraints.

I couldn’t disagree with this more. People say don’t introduce mounts. Don’t introduce open world PvP. Don’t introduce this, don’t introduce that. Everyone who pays for this game has a right to say what they want the devs to be working on and NO ONE shouldn’t be telling them that they are wrong for exercising that right.

That said, a person’s comfort zone, for many, is key to the success of the game, whether that’s fair or not fair. I don’t play games with open world PvP because I don’t like design decisions made around it, which DO affect my game.

I’ve never EVER played a game with raids where the raids didn’t have some affect on me, thus I have every right to say I don’t want them here.

They can say whatever they want, fine, just don’t be alarmed when shallow posts from people with nonsense reasons are completely ignored.

I’m not the one who generally gets alarmed at decisions made by Anet. I take things pretty much in stride. I lobby for what I want, and if I get it, I get it, if I don’t, I get that other people wanted other stuff.

But sometimes people call posts shallow and and reasons nonsense when they’re not. You may not agree or understand them, but it doesn’t make them invalid.

evilunderling.9265:

Vayne.8563:

I agree some of what you said. But I think there are ways to deal with the zerg mentality without actually making raids. In some ways, it’s already been done in parts of the game.

To a point, it is something you can avoid with content design, yes. But if your content designer also has to also work around a whole bunch of extra problems because the content in question isn’t instanced, that is itself is going to affect the quality of the content they design.

I strongly suspect Anet doesn’t want to add a lot fo instanced content to this game. I guess we’ll soon see if I’m right or not.

Valento.9852:

Vayne.8563:

Valento.9852:

Vayne.8563:

Valento.9852:

Vayne.8563:

Sure it’s feasible. Let’s hope they don’t hide all the best skins behind raiding though, or people like me will feel we have to raid to play the game, to get those skins, the one thing we didn’t have to do before.

Raiding people don’t just want challenge, they want reward for challenge…at least many of them have asked for that. Start gating skins behind the hardest content in the game and people will want the “best” or coolest looking skins. And if you don’t want to raid you then have to choose to raid, or not have those skins.

Dungeons weren’t quite as bad, and still some people had problems with that. Of course, now there’s a PvP track that allows you to get dungeon rewards, so you at least have another option. But raiders also tend to want exclusive, unique rewards. Then you end up again with the haves and have nots. If the haves happen to be a smaller group, and the have nots is a much bigger group. you’ll end up kittening off your core players.

It doesn’t HAVE TO happen like that, but it sure could. And from what I’ve seen of what raiders want reward wise, that’s where the problem lies.

Yeah, could, you must agree that’s on ANet hands though.

As is whether or not they make raids. That’s also in their hands.

That was not the point of my posts, my point is that the excuses given for not implementing raids are too much biased and anticipated, and are a pure contradiction to ANet core philosophies about gear treadmill and making something mandatory. People shouldn’t be questioning these two points and basing their opinions on them (which they are doing).

And the point of my posts are that the raid “lobby” is so loud and so insistent that it can affect the direction of games, or at very least convince other people that they’re some sort of huge majority…which I don’t think they are.

Nothing I say will stop Anet from making raids if that’s what they want to do. But my comfort levels would go down if raiding was introduced. It would certainly have to be done carefully. I think we might be seeing a completely new type of raid, and as such, maybe it doesn’t need to be called a raid.

That would solve a lot of problems.

Vayne, I just don’t get why your comfort levels would go down and why the name kind of bother you, and the others for that matter. I too think it’s not major priority, what I can’t digest is the way people perceive their introduction and constantly retaliate with (excuse me the word) nosense excuses. Most of the times they’re not even constructive. IMO if you don’t like certain stuff and aren’t going to critique in a constructive way, then you shouldn’t be babbling for refusal at all.

Call it however you want, just don’t deny people aren’t requesting, and don’t judge beforehand stating it’s bad before knowing how ANet will implement their raids. Things that didn’t quite work well and fell into oblivion or were removed from the game include: Raid on the Capricon pvp map, Obsidian Sanctum (few uses), and current trait system. The devs are bold enough to try and remake stuff, or remove them if they don’t feel it’s right, they’re not afraid to try, and they will, given certain constraints.

I couldn’t disagree with this more. People say don’t introduce mounts. Don’t introduce open world PvP. Don’t introduce this, don’t introduce that. Everyone who pays for this game has a right to say what they want the devs to be working on and NO ONE shouldn’t be telling them that they are wrong for exercising that right.

That said, a person’s comfort zone, for many, is key to the success of the game, whether that’s fair or not fair. I don’t play games with open world PvP because I don’t like design decisions made around it, which DO affect my game.

I’ve never EVER played a game with raids where the raids didn’t have some affect on me, thus I have every right to say I don’t want them here.

I’d call them elite missions.

evilunderling.9265:

Vayne.8563:

It amazes me how people only see things from one point of view and seem incapable of seeing how others can for a different one, even though this view is shared by so many. So maybe, just maybe, there’s a reason for it.

Many people holding a view does not make that view correct. And not everything is a matter of perspective.

Any piece of content attempted with more than a certain critical mass of players will degrade into something that players cannot engage with or appreciate. The sheer mass of players will make meaningful participation difficult thanks to things like culling, framerate drops, skill lag, and things being obscured by players, numbers, and particle effects. At the same time, the sheer mass of players also eliminates both the social and gameplay pressures that would require those players to actually try.

So something has to stop such a critical mass of players from attempting any piece of content worthy of appreciation. And from this, it follows that true instanced raids really are critical. Nobody to date has found a way to do this, without violating the spirit of GW2 with mechanics like friendly fire, kill-stealing, and competition for loot.

As for rewards, engaging with content has to be more rewarding than not engaging with content, otherwise people won’t engage with the content, in which case it might as well not exist. That’s why instanced PvE content is a good idea in the first place.

I agree some of what you said. But I think there are ways to deal with the zerg mentality without actually making raids. In some ways, it’s already been done in parts of the game.

The other thing is that you say that just because a mass of people believes something doesn’t make it right. That’s true. It doesn’t make them wrong either.

And right or wrong, if a mass of people believe something, if enough believe it, whether they’re right or wrong it can still affect the game.

Valento.9852:

Vayne.8563:

Valento.9852:

Vayne.8563:

Sure it’s feasible. Let’s hope they don’t hide all the best skins behind raiding though, or people like me will feel we have to raid to play the game, to get those skins, the one thing we didn’t have to do before.

Raiding people don’t just want challenge, they want reward for challenge…at least many of them have asked for that. Start gating skins behind the hardest content in the game and people will want the “best” or coolest looking skins. And if you don’t want to raid you then have to choose to raid, or not have those skins.

Dungeons weren’t quite as bad, and still some people had problems with that. Of course, now there’s a PvP track that allows you to get dungeon rewards, so you at least have another option. But raiders also tend to want exclusive, unique rewards. Then you end up again with the haves and have nots. If the haves happen to be a smaller group, and the have nots is a much bigger group. you’ll end up kittening off your core players.

It doesn’t HAVE TO happen like that, but it sure could. And from what I’ve seen of what raiders want reward wise, that’s where the problem lies.

Yeah, could, you must agree that’s on ANet hands though.

As is whether or not they make raids. That’s also in their hands.

That was not the point of my posts, my point is that the excuses given for not implementing raids are too much biased and anticipated, and are a pure contradiction to ANet core philosophies about gear treadmill and making something mandatory. People shouldn’t be questioning these two points and basing their opinions on them (which they are doing).

And the point of my posts are that the raid “lobby” is so loud and so insistent that it can affect the direction of games, or at very least convince other people that they’re some sort of huge majority…which I don’t think they are.

Nothing I say will stop Anet from making raids if that’s what they want to do. But my comfort levels would go down if raiding was introduced. It would certainly have to be done carefully. I think we might be seeing a completely new type of raid, and as such, maybe it doesn’t need to be called a raid.

That would solve a lot of problems.

Valento.9852:

Vayne.8563:

Valento.9852:

You guys dictate your opinions by the World of Warcraft definition of raids. Raids, in GW2 terms, will not:

• Have gear treadmill: This has been clarified since launch, with the manifesto.
• Be mandatory: Apart from the current means we have to gear up, no further methods are needed. You can get exotics with dungeons and other various contents, ascended with fractals, world bosses, and other stuff.

When we have these two points perfectly clarified (i.e. GW2-style raids), then what are raids for? Re: Difficult instanced content long requested/asked, in a more closed environment to reproduce experiences old-school MMO players miss. What would the rewards be? Re: Skins, be it grindy or not, simply skins. Skins don’t make one more powerful than someone else, so it is perfectly feasible.

Sure it’s feasible. Let’s hope they don’t hide all the best skins behind raiding though, or people like me will feel we have to raid to play the game, to get those skins, the one thing we didn’t have to do before.

Raiding people don’t just want challenge, they want reward for challenge…at least many of them have asked for that. Start gating skins behind the hardest content in the game and people will want the “best” or coolest looking skins. And if you don’t want to raid you then have to choose to raid, or not have those skins.

Dungeons weren’t quite as bad, and still some people had problems with that. Of course, now there’s a PvP track that allows you to get dungeon rewards, so you at least have another option. But raiders also tend to want exclusive, unique rewards. Then you end up again with the haves and have nots. If the haves happen to be a smaller group, and the have nots is a much bigger group. you’ll end up kittening off your core players.

It doesn’t HAVE TO happen like that, but it sure could. And from what I’ve seen of what raiders want reward wise, that’s where the problem lies.

Yeah, could, you must agree that’s on ANet hands though.

As is whether or not they make raids. That’s also in their hands.

Valento.9852:

You guys dictate your opinions by the World of Warcraft definition of raids. Raids, in GW2 terms, will not:

• Have gear treadmill: This has been clarified since launch, with the manifesto.
• Be mandatory: Apart from the current means we have to gear up, no further methods are needed. You can get exotics with dungeons and other various contents, ascended with fractals, world bosses, and other stuff.

When we have these two points perfectly clarified (i.e. GW2-style raids), then what are raids for? Re: Difficult instanced content long requested/asked, in a more closed environment to reproduce experiences old-school MMO players miss. What would the rewards be? Re: Skins, be it grindy or not, simply skins. Skins don’t make one more powerful than someone else, so it is perfectly feasible.

Sure it’s feasible. Let’s hope they don’t hide all the best skins behind raiding though, or people like me will feel we have to raid to play the game, to get those skins, the one thing we didn’t have to do before.

Raiding people don’t just want challenge, they want reward for challenge…at least many of them have asked for that. Start gating skins behind the hardest content in the game and people will want the “best” or coolest looking skins. And if you don’t want to raid you then have to choose to raid, or not have those skins.

Dungeons weren’t quite as bad, and still some people had problems with that. Of course, now there’s a PvP track that allows you to get dungeon rewards, so you at least have another option. But raiders also tend to want exclusive, unique rewards. Then you end up again with the haves and have nots. If the haves happen to be a smaller group, and the have nots is a much bigger group. you’ll end up kittening off your core players.

It doesn’t HAVE TO happen like that, but it sure could. And from what I’ve seen of what raiders want reward wise, that’s where the problem lies.

Valento.9852:

It’s astonishing how afraid people are from raids, giving every sort of excuse: it will steal resources from doing other content, it will diminish player base, it will create elitism, it doesn’t fit the game because philosophy is casual-friendly (wtf?), we have “great” world bosses which are difficult already (w.t.f.?), it will require too much time spent to complete, just a minority is asking for it, it is not “needed”, etc. Seriously? Is it that hard to understand that it’s OPTIONAL? You don’t have to do? I don’t sPvP, I’m not forced to do it, and yet they’re constantly spending resources on that to make it more attractive, if you compare to PvE and WvW there aren’t as many players playing it, and yet they keep on refining it because they believe in e-sport and that game mode. For Jesus Christ’s sake, just STOP thinking the world revolves around yourselves and be a little less egoistics.

It amazes me how people only see things from one point of view and seem incapable of seeing how others can for a different one, even though this view is shared by so many. So maybe, just maybe, there’s a reason for it.

Perhaps we’ve all played raid-centric games and we’ve seen where that’s led in those games, and so we have a bad taste in our mouths. Rift was a game that initially had some promise, but everything funneled you into raiding. You couldn’t even finish the main quest line of the game without doing a raid.

The currency in that game that came from the open world was capped and many of us had reached the cap. Why? Because raids held sway in that game. DO you know how many games there are where the only way to get the best gear is to raid?

So maybe we’re tired of those type of games and have reason to not want that type of game here. A company that tries to focus on too many things, ends up doing none of them well. Anet should focus on the differences between this game and others, not the stuff that other games have that are already done well elsewhere. It’s a better business strategy.

People are resistant to raids for no reason. Many of us have played games centered around raids and they don’t fit our play style. And if you put enough emphasis on stuff like raids, you attract the raiders, who are the loudest segment of most MMO population. They continually put pressure on the devs to make more raids. To make harder raids. To increase the rewards for raids.

For some of us, this isn’t our first rodeo and the opinions we’ve developed come from playing other games that do it other ways. That’s why these opinions exist. It might not happen here, but I don’t see how anyone could guarantee it won’t.

Daywolf.2630:

Vayne.8563:

It’s not really a generational change, so much as a situational one. .

eh not really, industry leading periodicals published on gamasutra and such linked/supported GDC sites for many years on marketing practices (monetization) pretty much favor targeting millinials for RMT. Pretty much since cartoony WoW, most every drop of development has revolved around milking them specifically for their easy money /emote evil grin. Duh? Like… what eeverrrr… /emote roles eyes.

Really doesn’t change what I said. That it to say, they’re targeting the millennials because they now play. They probably weren’t, wouldn’t have been playing, at least not enough of them, if the industry hadn’t changed in the first place. It’s a chicken and egg thing.

When it was a very niche market, there was less point in milking it. There were already too many barriers to entry.

Daywolf.2630:

Lindelle.3718:

Isnt it funny how the MMO players have aged with the genre? Ive spoken to plenty of people, and of course myself, that feel the same. Hardcore MMOs were a blast back in the day, I could game all day and night. I still recall those days fondly but in reality, just cant do it anymore, which is why I love this game (though, a bit more tougher pve and instanced content would be nice.) I played Archeage its first few months, and while I had a lot of fun for a while, just not something I can maintain anymore, so I came back here. I love how easy that is to do in this, and even if I play another MMO in the future I know Ive always got this one! I guess it was kind of proof of owning a pair of ruby-tinted glasses.

Hmm? no idea what you are talking about. Back in the day, early EQ etc, I was the raid leader for my guild (played UO too where I was the events officer for 3rd largest ranked guild, global, first three years). We had people in the 20’s, 30’s, 40’s, 50’s and even 60’s. Maybe even 70’s, but that generation was more modest (much like my parents were). Many of these players came from MUDs, pure massively multiplayer online role-play game experience. I think it’s more a generational thing, and why so may genX’ers, baby boombers and wwii gens dog on millennials /shrugs (I like some). And sadly, RMT item shops target them and revolve game development on how they can pull millennials into spending tons of cash (and they DO!) cha-ching. [Repent, the end is nigh].

Not all of course, like in this other mmo I play, Mills show to be able to be truly hard-core. I’m just a genX ‘core’ player myself. I really believe it’s generational though, much study into mmo development (and practiced on the indie side) and studying the uhh AAA marketing side of mmo’s. It can be truly diabolical. We old folk play just as much, just maybe not your games. Like lol? what’s that…? hah

I don’t think it’s a generational thing at all. I was one of the people who, though older, would have played the hell out of that hard core stuff back then. I could even see myself doing that sort of thing now. No, I don’t believe the difference is in generation.

I think the difference is in the sheer number of people playing. Back in the old days of UO and EQ, those games were very very niche. Only a tiny percentage of people back then would have identified themselves as MMO players. When you have a small niche like that you tend to capture the most dedicated people, because it’s harder to find, harder to get into and anyone who stayed long enough to get into it, was almost hard core just by being there.

As you increase the circle of people joining, as you remove the barriers to entry (which is better for business) you invite players that don’t have as much vested. It’s the same in the publishing industry.

When I started writing, the publishing industry was print only. You had to submit manuscripts through mail. There was nothing to speak of online and there was really no epublishing. The authors back then were hard core. You sort of had to be to get published. You’d have to sit through hundreds of rejection slips, wait forever to hear back and just keep writing and hoping.

Today, with the advent of epublishing, the entry to the industry is very easy. It’s cheap to set up an epublisher, you almost need no money to do it. You need very little money to publish someone’s book, so you can risk more on books that are less likely to sell or sell to a smaller niche. You even can open a publishing company if you know nothing about writing or publishing. The writers today are more spoiled, less hard core, and think they’re published, even if they’re published by someone who’ll literally publish anything.

It’s not really a generational change, so much as a situational one. The games were dumbed down to attract more people and when they did, it’s logical those people would be less vested. They didn’t have to go through what you did to hit max level or be successful in the game.

Neox.3497:

The problem with “events only” maps is that you have no response of “accomplishment”. In maps with hearts you do every heart, skill challenge, vista and point of interest and “complete” the map.
Imagine every map had only events and no hearts at all. Most players would probably just walk to every skill challenge, vista and point of interest and mostly only do the events on the way, especially when they reached max level. And that would be way too fast.

There would still be people farming these events for loot or for others reasons but that’s not the main thing most players do on the (classic) PvE maps.

I think anet should add some sort of “check mark” to every event and/or event chain if done and show it on the map somehow for the new “no hearts” maps.
So people are able to play through all the content without missing anything if they want and be able to see it.

I mean who doesn’t like to see a 100% done bar after all that “work”? ;D

I get a response though in maps like Drytop. By pushing the event so that it’s at a higher tier, that’s definitely a response. To me it’s a much better response than looking at a heart that involved gathering or killing something very easy and saying oh, look I did that.

It’s the difference between crossing off something on a shopping list, or a christmas list. lol

I’m not sure the OP is actually complaining, so much as asking a question. I can see how it can come off as a complaint, but I chose not to take it that way.

I think you have the wrong question, OP. The question is why has it taken the MMO genre so long to make obvious changes that would support a percentage of the MMO genre. Surely on almost every MMO forum I’ve been on, there have been fights between the hard core people and the “carebears”. And there are always a lot of the latter. Like me.

Other games never supported me and this one does. Why did Anet design a game that no one else designed? Because they saw the niche and entered it, because that’s what smart businesses do. They see something missing and fill that need.

At least it’s a lot smarter than making the same game as everyone else and then having to split their player base infinitely with people providing a very similar product. I’m here because no other MMO gives me what this game gives me.

Diovid.9506:

MashMash.1645:

ShelBlackblood.7826:

Hi there,
I try to keep it short this time!
So after Southsun Cove, Dry Top and the Silverwastes, with the last two being literally a prelude to HoT, I wanted to ask if this is the “future” of how all lvl 80 maps will be like in HoT. Heart Quests are pretty dead by now and we get decreasingly Vistas + Skill Point challenges. It’s all about rushing between Dynamic Events.

The beta map was rather confusing and felt a bit like a less optimal Silverwaste copy. And since the events on the map are essential to unlock masteries; I can’t see all my 8 characters + the revenant to grind events all day long right now. Maybe I will do that with 2 characters, but that’s all the event grind I might want to do, seeing how slow the EXP gain was during those 2 hours.

So… no more “classic but likable” heart quests in the future…?

Masteries are account wide aren’t they? Do on one character, unlocks for all yeah?

Mastery points are account wide. I’m not sure about the actual masteries.

I’m pretty sure masteries are account wide.

CureForLiving.5360:

ColinJohanson.2394:

Simply put: we haven’t announced it yet – when we’re ready to show everything about our plans for challenging content for HoT, we’ll announce it.

Though it isn’t the “challenging content” feature discussed in our announcement – I will add we want our open world content experience to be more challenging as well just in general.

That’s slightly confusing.
So from what I understand: There is challenging content coming. But it’s different challenging content than the challenging content that was announced. So there’s more than one type of challenging content coming? But besides these types of challenging content you’re also looking at harder open world content?
So there’s at least 3 types of challenging content coming, and 1 of them is open world content (possibly)?

They announced everything at one time, but they went into detail on none of it. They’re been slowly releasing the detail. They have yet to release the detail on the special challenging content they were talking about.

People are saying the wyverns are the challenging content or the new AI is the challenging content they were talking about. It’s not.

Thanks for that Colin. I said earlier that you haven’t talked about it yet, but apparently some people didn’t believe me. Good to see a red post here.

penelopehannibal.8947:

Cuddy.6247:

That’s ten hours a day…

Seeing some of the numbers in this thread, does this seriously not bother some of you guys? Because if I looked back on two years and noticed I logged 10 hours a day on a computer game I’d probably throw myself off the nearest bridge.

Cuddy.6247:

Maybe I’m just old-fashioned but being plugged-in for most, if not all, of your free time just seems like you’re avoiding the awkwardness that can come with real life, spontaneous interaction.

Thank you for your wavering concern regarding the amount of hours I’ve spent on Guild Wars 2, and of course, for the state of my mental health.

If it’s really important to you that I must clarify why I’ve managed to spend so much time in the game without throwing myself off a bridge, it is because I am a full-time carer for my disabled wife who needs my care during the day as she suffers from more than one disability.

Sometimes I have to walk away from the game to administer her medication, so there is some AFK time there. Some nights during the week, I engage in RP with my guild mates. Mostly Wednesdays, Fridays and Sundays.

Also, on a Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday, my guild and some of our friends hang out in Divinity’s Reach listening to one of our guild member’s radio shows.

As for actual gameplay, I first spent a lot of time levelling alts, then after so many I decided to see how many I can get to 100% map completion. I’ve done eight so far, working on character No. 9.

Some people choose to play and interact with video games instead of watching TV all day. Not everyone is a Game of Thrones fan!!!

I hope this puts to one side some of your concerns, and that I can assure you that both my mental and my physical conditions are at the moment, quite stable and I have no plans in the near future to go throw myself off a bridge.

You’re not alone, and you shouldn’t listen to the naysayers. Those who have never experienced it have no idea and shouldn’t judge.

We all do what we have to to get through the night.

Some of us understand that. Those that don’t understand shouldn’t be talking.

Tachenon.5270:

Vayne.8563:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Dondarrion.2748:

Kind of early to complain about lack of challenging HoT content when the expansion isn’t live yet, no???

Kind of too late to complain about it once the expansion launches and it isn’t there, no???

No. lol

If it’s not there now, it’s not likely to be there at launch. But since we haven’t seen what it is yet, it’s too early to start complaining.

Think of it this way. I tell you I’m going to cook you a seven course meal. I tell you about soup and appetizer. What do you think I’ll see if you tell me the dessert is too sweet, before I even tell you what it is?

If I tell you I don’t want crème brûlée for dessert and that what I’d really like to have is banana pudding, what do you think I’ll see if you serve crème brûlée?

If you said it after it was already all but made, it’s what you’d be getting. It’s hardly like Anet is going to scrap the entire beta at this point because this guy wants harder content, particularly when they haven’t discussed the harder content.

And saying you want harder content isn’t at all specific. Saying you want an instanced raid is more specific, but that’s very unlikely to happen, and not at all likely if it’s not already being worked on.

Cuddy.6247:

ozmaniandevil.6805:

it is quite possible that people who suffer from physical or mental disabilities play these kinds of games a lot.

Which changes what, exactly? Homes to the disabled just end up feeling like gilded cages. No medical professional who values their career or knowledge would suggest that disabled people shouldn’t live socially constructive lives.

And if that person suffers agorophobia? Unless you’re a doctor, you probably shouldn’t comment on what is healthy for other people, or even what doctors would say.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Dondarrion.2748:

Kind of early to complain about lack of challenging HoT content when the expansion isn’t live yet, no???

Kind of too late to complain about it once the expansion launches and it isn’t there, no???

No. lol

If it’s not there now, it’s not likely to be there at launch. But since we haven’t seen what it is yet, it’s too early to start complaining.

Think of it this way. I tell you I’m going to cook you a seven course meal. I tell you about soup and appetizer. What do you think I’ll see if you tell me the dessert is too sweet, before I even tell you what it is?

Test.8734:

Vayne.8563:

Test.8734:

Vayne.8563:

I have waaaaaaay more hours logged than you OP. But you know, I’m nuts. lol

I remember this:

Vayne.8563:

3335 Hours over the past 9 months.

Let me guess: around 11.850 hours by now?

10,154. Obviously, even though I’m often logged in, I’m not actively playing during all that time.

I’m surprised that so many people from that topic are still around.

I’m not really. If you like the game, you like the game. It hasn’t really substantially changed. And there’s no other MMORPG out there that gives me what I get from this game. If there had been, it might have been a different story.

Test.8734:

Vayne.8563:

I have waaaaaaay more hours logged than you OP. But you know, I’m nuts. lol

I remember this:

Vayne.8563:

3335 Hours over the past 9 months.

Let me guess: around 11.850 hours by now?

10,154. Obviously, even though I’m often logged in, I’m not actively playing during all that time.

Anyone else here break 10,000 hours? lol

Black Lion Chests are there to exploit a segment of the population that likes to gamble. And I’m not necessarily using exploit in a negative term here, though certainly it can be construed that way.

There are people out there who love to “take a flutter” as we say downunder. There’s a guy in my guild who buys keys every single month. I don’t know how many. I mean he’s single and he’s working and he’s happy, so who am I to judge?

The thing I like about them is that there’s nothing in them I need to play the game. They can be easily ignored. After all, I already have enough weapon skins to choke a dinosaur.

I have waaaaaaay more hours logged than you OP. But you know, I’m nuts. lol

DarksunG.9537:

Vayne.8563:

Whether you call this an expansion or not is largely irrelevant.

Very untrue. How people label the product is a quick way for people to categorize their impression on the amount of content, the quality of content, how many if any features are added & the expected cost. It’s a quick way to encapsulate your opinion on the entire thing. You’re just getting semantic for the sake of argument.

What you call something isn’t what it is. It’s LARGELY irrelevant. That’s not the same as completely irrelevant. You can call a horse a table, but the moment you try to eat dinner on it, you’re in for a rough time.

This is an expansion because Anet calls it one. It fundamentally changes the game. I needs to provide enough content timewise to compete with other expansions. This isn’t just a single storyline that is being added to an already existing game. It’s a fundamental change of some of the game’s basics. You have to be pretty uncharitable to call this just a DLC and I don’t think most people will.

And it would certainly help if we had this conversation after we had the rest of the detail and not before.

Hylek are based and modeled after real life frogs. These frogs aren’t cartoony at all. The problem here is a lack of biological information, not a graphic style. One of the new races is modeled after tree frogs and the other is modeled after bull frogs. Both are well done from that perspective.

Tree frogs look more gangly than other frogs and have a bigger head.

Must we go through this every time a retailer enters a placeholder date. Until Anet provides a release date NO ONE knows. Not Amazaon, not EBgames, no one. Placeholder dates are meaningless, and have always been meaningless.