Guild Wars 2

MrHeartless.9164:

Thread can be closed whenever, I’ve said my bit and noone has been able to tell me why this system exists outside the laughable reasons hashed out above.

System existed at first to equalize it so people who lived in the game couldn’t have everything right away super fast, while casual players would take years to get it. It equalized it a bit.

It’s now outlived its usefulness.

There’s a huge difference between the concepts not ENOUGH content and not enough content that I like.

But we still haven’t seen all the content so I still don’t know how anyone can know this.

Sure someone might be attached to the idea that an expansion must come with a new race, but that’s their own preconceptions and has nothing to do with the amount of content over all.

It’s a type of content they particularly want that’s missing, for which there have also been threads. This thread, however, is making a direct statement that we’re not getting enough and I don’t think anyone has enough information to make that determination.

phys.7689:

Vayne.8563:

This whole conversation is completely meaningless because everyone is using different definitions of what grind is. I don’t grind in this game. I don’t have to grind. I do a variety of activities and I can get what I want…I’ve done it all without grinding, including five legendaries. Yeah, it takes a lot longer my way, but it can be done.

if you dont feel there is any grind, then you really have nothing to add to the topic of how to ease, eliminate, or change it. Let the people feel it express their views, and possible solutions. It wont really effect you in any case.

I didn’t say I don’t feel there’s any grind, so why put words in my mouth. I simply said there’s no required grind and on top of that, I choose not to grind because I dislike it.

Nor can you say something will or won’t affect me, even if it doesn’t directly affect my play style. If people end up pressuring Anet to make the game less grindy and then people run out of stuff to do and leave the game that affects everyone.

There are people here who don’t understand that having long term goals you have to work towards are the only thing keeping some people in the game. Maybe not you. Maybe not all people, but some people.

You have to give enough people enough of what they want for the game to exist…or it will cease to exist at some point. I’d say that affects me.

Test.8734:

Vayne.8563:

This whole conversation is completely meaningless because everyone is using different definitions of what grind is. I don’t grind in this game. I don’t have to grind.

Just because you don’t call it grind, doesn’t mean it’s not grind. Your definition of grind is very… Colorful.

No, my definition of grind is not doing anything I don’t want to do at any time, even if it takes me longer to get stuff. I don’t do the same stuff over and over because it bores me to tears.

Devata.6589:

maddoctor.2738:

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

Grind is different from optional grind though. If you say have to grind to level, it’s different than if you don’t have to.

I even felt like I was grinding in Guild Wars 1, capping all the elite skills. But it wasn’t actually grind. I was killing different bosses in different areas all the time. It just felt like a grind. That was far more necessary from a gameplay perspective than the grind in this game.

No I don’t agree. I don’t think all grind is equal.

But what is optional.

Not all grind is equal. There is optional and required grind.

Optional Grind is grind that does not give you access to any type of content, only gives you some extra pretty skins.

Required grind is grind that prevents you from doing specific content before you finish it first.

Even if someone says they don’t do the content that requires the grind, maybe they don’t do it BECAUSE there is a grind involved? If there was no grind-gated content, maybe more people would actually play that type of content?

Even if you don’t play it, it’s still content that exists in the game and you can’t access before doing the mandatory grind for it.

“Not all grind is equal. There is optional and required grind.

Optional Grind is grind that does not give you access to any type of content, only gives you some extra pretty skins.”

It’s not all equal based on YOUR personal playstyle.

The grind for skins is for ME way, way, way worse then the grind for BiS gear that locks out the highest level raids as you see in games like WoW. Simply because hunting down skins is what I like to do and I don’t care for the highest level raids in WoW. Couldn’t care less about that and so couldn’t care less about BiS gear. Thats means to ME this grind is worse but to YOU that grind is worse.

So grind is only not equal depending on your personal play-style. There is NO general truth for what is worse.

Btw, you could just as well argue that in GW2 the content of hunting down kins is locked behind grind. I do not have access to that content.

Not to mention that in GW2 cosmetics is what it is all about while highest level raids is not. So basing it on the game the skin grind is maybe even worse then the BiS gear grind. Or other said, BiS gear in GW2 is the best skin, not the best stats.

“Even if someone says they don’t do the content that requires the grind, maybe they don’t do it BECAUSE there is a grind involved? ”
Thats possible. In GW2 I do not hunt down skins for that reason. While I would love to do that.

“If there was no grind-gated content, maybe more people would actually play that type of content?” Sure and so more people who play the game, so lets make that happen!

“Even if you don’t play it, it’s still content that exists in the game and you can’t access before doing the mandatory grind for it.”
Yeah just as you grind for skins in stead of hunting them down. Even if you don’t see it as an important element of this game.

So how do you go about making it so you can hunt them down. Give me a concrete example, because from my understanding, if they take away a grind and make it so you can just “hunt it down” you’ll attain it a lot faster, without grind. That leaves people with nothing to work towards at which point many people do leave games. Not to mention the obvious fact that once you have those skins without that grind what do you do then? Anet would have to make skins faster, or people would have nothing to do.

PorceleinEve.2973:

Astralporing.1957:

Have you? No? I thought so.

The opposite (believing something doesn’t exist simply because you haven’t seen it yet) is equally bad. And you are already making definite statements on the future expansion, while knowing that lot of things are not really revealed yet. I am amazed of the depth of knowledge that you (don’t) have.

But here’s the thing, i don’t need to have seen it. Since the default position is one of not acceptance without evidence. What you’re suggesting is equal to… “can you prove that vampires don’t exist? no? i thought so, therefor they exist”. I’m sorry to say this to ya, but it doesn’t work that way. We evaluate what we’ve seen and we make reasonable assumptions on the basis of that. And so far, all the assumptions made have been reasonable. I understand that you don’t like ‘em, or that you may even not aggree with them. But “shouting” as hard as you can "la la la la i can’t hear ya, we’ll all be amazed by the content that has not yet been revealed" is a bit shortsighted, in my opinion.

And not believing that something isn’t true untill the evidence comes up for it is NOT equally bad. Unless there are indications and logical arguments that can allow one to reasonably accept a hypothesis no, not accepting stuff on the basis of faith or wishfull thinking is not equally bad as accepting them. Sorry.

Not to mention that for some things we can make definitive statements. And the rest can be deduced by the evidence that’s been provided to us. I’m sorry you feel that they left out some of the most amazing features of their expansion for later, but they themselves have said that this is it. Every major feature has been already presented. And by major they even included stuff like one (1) pvp map. So the threshhold of “major” is very well bloody low already. Had they developed an amazing tech that would blow our minds, they’d showcase it already.

and trust me, should they reveal something amazing that would change the core game, i’d be the first to admit it. I love this game.

Bad argument is bad.

We haven’t seen it and you’re drawing the conclusion it’s more like a patch. That’s the conclusion you are drawing. Therefore you have to prove it. And you can’t because we haven’t seen it.

Try to remember, we’re responding to statements it’s more like a patch, which are unprovable, rather than we’re making the initial statement.

The only real answer is we need to wait and see.

PorceleinEve.2973:

Vayne.8563:

What makes you think that technology isn’t being fed back through the professions in specializations which they haven’t covered yet. It’s short sighted to think that new technology isn’t something moving forward that makes the game better, possibly much better?

With the ability to add better skills and more specializations this becomes almost a new game.

Some people can see it, some can’t.

What makes you think that it is? Have you seen it? Cause i always thought that the default position is to not accept something untill it is demonstrated that it is so (for example, untill someone proves that vampires exist, the default position is to assume that they don’t till the evidence says otherwise). I won’t assume that the new tech will move the game forward untill it actually happens, or untill i see a post from anet explaining how exactly the new tech is gonna provide us with that effect.

The ability to add new skills? Please… I understand that many here have short memories but this is silly. They said we were gonna get an expansion’s worth of content via the living story. Didn’t happen. They said that they’ll be adding new skills into the game, in almost 3 years we got what? 2 new skills? 1? can’t remember cause they’re so many. If you think you’ll be getting new skills and specks left right and center you got another thing comming to ya. The next set of specs will come (if it comes) with the expansion after HoT. In another 3 years probably if you gyus are correct and they’ve been working on this for 2.5 years.

“Almost” an new game, exactly like the old… sorry if i’m not amazed by it all just yet.

Posts like this make me laugh.

Someone makes more or less definitive statements about how there’s no content in the new game or how it’s just a patch without ever seeing it, having played it, nor knowing everything about it. We still know very little. But I wasn’t the one who made the statement. I simply disagreed with a statement made by others.

But you’re applying this logic to me, when the original premise I’m responding to suffers the same exact issues. We have NOT seen it, you’re right.

So why do you condone judging it negatively not having seen it, and in what way is that not hypocritical?

This whole conversation is completely meaningless because everyone is using different definitions of what grind is. I don’t grind in this game. I don’t have to grind. I do a variety of activities and I can get what I want…I’ve done it all without grinding, including five legendaries. Yeah, it takes a lot longer my way, but it can be done.

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

Grind is different from optional grind though. If you say have to grind to level, it’s different than if you don’t have to.

I even felt like I was grinding in Guild Wars 1, capping all the elite skills. But it wasn’t actually grind. I was killing different bosses in different areas all the time. It just felt like a grind. That was far more necessary from a gameplay perspective than the grind in this game.

No I don’t agree. I don’t think all grind is equal.

But what is optional.

The so called ‘required’ grind in many other games like WoW was never required for me because I did not want to do the highest lever raids. So does then not make it optional?

Yes and no.. it was optional for me because I did feel the need to do those raids. I however do feel like getting those cosmetics so if I would want to do that in GW2 the grind is required for me.

It just depends on what you like to do if it’s option for your. However it’s both not ‘required’ in general.

So when you say that is required and this is not it only means you feel the need to be able to do those highest level raids while you do not feel the need to get the cosmetics. Thats person.

But for the people who like to hunt for the item, grind is grind.

If it’s gating content, it’s not optional to do content. Technically, you have to grind to do 50th level fractals here. However, you can still experience all fractals without doing the highest level of them without grinding.

And that’s all that’s really gated by gear here. Otherwise I can do every dungeon in the game, I can jump into WvW, I can PvP. This isn’t true of most games, and yes you do have to compare them because that’s what this conversation is really about.

Other games have required grinds because grinds gate content. Here, not so much.

Grind is different from optional grind though. If you say have to grind to level, it’s different than if you don’t have to.

I even felt like I was grinding in Guild Wars 1, capping all the elite skills. But it wasn’t actually grind. I was killing different bosses in different areas all the time. It just felt like a grind. That was far more necessary from a gameplay perspective than the grind in this game.

No I don’t agree. I don’t think all grind is equal.

Bubi.7942:

Not this again…

1. Post in that thread then if you want to continue it, why make a new one?
2. Grind for cosmetic items is optional
3. No, I did not read your post
4. /thread

That thread was closed.

Fernling.1729:

Vayne.8563:

Fernling.1729:

I actually liked Silverwastes for the first few hours. It got worse very quickly after that. Just like Drytop, silverwastes has to be my least favorite zones of the entire game.
The zone just feels like it was made to grind. There’s nothing of interest and almost zero replayability in terms of fun. Sure, it’s a great zone if you want to grind away for gold, but that’s about the only credit I will give it.

I want zones that are FUN to replay. I don’t want new spots to grind.

And that’s where opinion comes in because the Silverwastes is one of my favorite zones to replay. I like the fact that early on before you get close to a breech event, there’s some actual challenge in trying to take back forts and protect them. There are very few events in the game that are that hard, with that few people around.

I think I’m in a very small minority of people that don’t enjoy the zone. It always appears to be one of the most populated areas of the game. There’s just something about it that I don’t like.
It’s kind of funny because my favorite zone in the game is queensdale. Maybe because I’ve spent so much time there doing the old dailies or something. I really enjoy the conversations that happen in the zone as well. Helping new players and just kind of relaxing is always fun for me. Being in a guild by myself doesn’t give me many people to chat with.

And Queensdale is among my least favorite zones in the game. I feels really bland to me. It’s farmland. Not exciting. But there are a ton of people that love Queensdales because I know a lot of people that do.

Try zoning and coming back. Also what does the text say on your event tracker?

TeddieJ.2495:

I hate Drytop because you literally have to use WP to move between event..
In 1 hour i can waste about 25s just to tag event to get geodes.

Yes but in that same hour you should make a whole lot more than 25 silver. And in any zone that has a train you TP around anyway, so I’m not even sure why this is different. World boss chain, you’re constantly TPing. Every 15 minutes. The old Queensdale train, the Frostgorge Chain, you’re always TPing. Even in Orr if you’re farming champs, you’re going to have to TP.

The question isn’t how much you’re spending on waypoints, but how much you’re gaining by spending that. It’s just the cost of doing business.

I agree that afkers are one problem this game has that it needs a solution to at some point, if it’s going to go from being a good game to a great one. (my opinion only).

Test.8734:

Vayne.8563:

This is true of all new content. People flock to it, play it to death and it becomes a grind. Welcome to MMOs. You must be new here.

Actually, the only reason why “all new content” works like that is because players are willing to accept shallow content and play it regardless. The Silverwastes is the perfect example of this – it’s basically a non stop grind with a bit of eye candy, and nothing else. An incredibly lazy area when compared to any given zone seen on the original release of GW2, but filled with players because it has what can basically be summed up as a world boss that can be repeated many times per day.

If players actually demanded good, deep content, MMOs wouldn’t be basically big grinds. If players actually demanded gaming designers to be honest, we wouldn’t receive the lies they try to feed us. But as long as people are willing to settle for less, less is the best we will get.

In your opinion, which is certainly valid for you. I have an alternate opinion, which I’m sure doesn’t surprise you at all.

Players depending “good deep content” for whom? Like all players want the same type of deep content. That you know what players want. I got news for you.

You’re part of a demographic. You have no idea of the size of the demographic you’re a part of. Different demographics want different things. Players don’t necessarily settle for something just because they like it and you don’t. That’s a pretty self-centered way of looking at things.

Even from this thread, it’s quite easy to see that quite a lot of people enjoy the Silverwastes. Not just one or two, either. Your attempt to insult everyone by saying that they must not really have any standards if they don’t like what you like isn’t all that nice if you ask me.

Where as I am absolutely sure there are other people in your demographic who agree with you, I’m just as certain there are people in my demographic that agree with me.

It doesn’t invalidate your opinion…why are you trying to invalidate everyone else’s?

Fernling.1729:

I actually liked Silverwastes for the first few hours. It got worse very quickly after that. Just like Drytop, silverwastes has to be my least favorite zones of the entire game.
The zone just feels like it was made to grind. There’s nothing of interest and almost zero replayability in terms of fun. Sure, it’s a great zone if you want to grind away for gold, but that’s about the only credit I will give it.

I want zones that are FUN to replay. I don’t want new spots to grind.

And that’s where opinion comes in because the Silverwastes is one of my favorite zones to replay. I like the fact that early on before you get close to a breech event, there’s some actual challenge in trying to take back forts and protect them. There are very few events in the game that are that hard, with that few people around.

OP, I’m sure there are other people frustrated with inventory management. I don’t have a problem spending money on storage in the bank, because I spend it once and I’m still not paying a sub. If you really hate spending money you can always far the gold in game and buy the gems with that.

On my new account, I get different dailies than on my main account. The daily is based on what level you were at reset. If you level up after that, you don’t switch dailies.

PorceleinEve.2973:

Vayne.8563:

Several times during the video where they showed the revenant, they talked about skills that used new technology.

A lot of the basis for this expansion wasn’t designing a dungeon, it was designing a new system to move forward. Making and testing stuff like that that’s a lot more time than making a new dungeon.

To be clear, the game wasn’t working for a lot of people because there was no feeling of progression. This changes enough of the core game to make it feel like a different game.

I get you’d rather have a dungeon. Many people would rather have a better core game.

And if you think making changes like that to the core game doesn’t take more time than making some dungeons, I’m not sure what else to tell you.

Yeah, an amazing technology that applies only to the revenant and nobody else who also took ’em apparently 1.5 years to come up with. So much for the realistic approach huh?

If the absence of progression was the issue many folks have, then i’m sorry to say that the problem remains. We’re still lvl 80, we’re still grinding for ascended and legendary. The only progression you’ll be having is grinding events in a couple of jungle zones to gain enough xp to unlock abilities so you can explore a little more of the jungle zones. Where you’ll still be grinding even more events in them same zones to get to the next bit. You’ll gain abilities applicable not to your character as a whole but on a per zone/world area basis. Amazing upgrade to the problem of progression. Indeed you are right this changes the core game. From do anything to grind your kitten off in some jungle zones. But don’t you worry cause now you’ll have your mastery number showing up next to your name so everybody would know what a pro you are. You can explore 10% more of a zone. Bravo! True progression that one. Sorry for the rant, it’s not directed on you friend.

Anyways, back on track, no you don’t get it. I -personally- don’t want a dungeon, i never do ‘em, got burned years ago with raiding and now i never go near the stuff. I -personaly- don’t care much about fractals either. But that’s not the point. Others do, and an expansion should cater to them too. For me, i would totally settle with the ability to finally name my bloody pets. Cause that Juvenille title is making me nerd rage. Not nice. So you see, the expansion isn’t done for the benefit of some, but should cater for all the playerbase.

Adding grind, doesn’t change the core game. Hiding it behind abilities that are zone bound instead of character bound isn’t progression either. Imagine having to grind for the ability to use wp’s in every single zone. Wow progression! i can now tp to 4 more zones than i could one month ago. And in all honesty making changes like that don’t require as much time as you think it does. The only “progression” we’re getting are specializations, and we still don’t know much about ‘em, appart form the pr line of they’re almost like a secondary class with new class mechanics. Only we now know that that’s not happening much either. See the druid and his pets. So untill we get more info the jury is out on that one. But i wouldn’t hold my breath. And if you can stand here and tell me that what you’re seeing you feel like it’s the work that being produced after -supposedly- working on this for 2.5 years I don’t know what else to tell you…

What makes you think that technology isn’t being fed back through the professions in specializations which they haven’t covered yet. It’s short sighted to think that new technology isn’t something moving forward that makes the game better, possibly much better?

With the ability to add better skills and more specializations this becomes almost a new game.

Some people can see it, some can’t.

PorceleinEve.2973:

Mar.4839:

I just want to focus on the bolded part. I agree it’s not amazing design but honestly it’s entirely not feasible for them to create content at a pace that players won’t eat up within weeks if not a month. If there’s any developer who can create content faster than players can consume it please show me cuz I’d like to give props to that dev company. Even WoW with all the money it makes can’t churn out content that quickly. You have to gate things in order for their to be progression and for it to feel like you’re actively making progress towards something which in the end will feel like an achievement.

Now yes some people don’t find any fun in that at all (Why do I have to level up my glider to reach higher places, why can’t I just do that once I get my glider? Etc etc) these are valid arguments but again this is the surest way to prolong time for devs to create new content.

There are people working on creating their first legendaries still to this day, not because some crazy amount of player skill is involved but just because it involves a lot of grind. But I wager that a lot of those people will still feel like they achieved something worthwhile once they finally complete it.

So yes I agree that it’s not amazing design. But honestly, it works for me. It gives me enough of a sense of progression that I’m mighty excited to work through each tier of mastery and I know this will extend the amount of time I spend playing with GW2.

I think you misunderstood the point I was trying to make. I agree that content can’t be produced faster than it’s being consumed. that’s a fact of mmo life for me. All i’m saying is just don’t get your hopes up too much. Keep it real. Be logical and realistic. There won’t be any new tech to awe and woo us. Most likely the specializations won’t be almost like a new class. And although big, the zones, won’t be as big as we might have hoped. The jungle will be dense, and gaps will have to exist for the glider/mushroom mechanic to have any meaning. Revenant will be cool if not a bit constricted on it’s builds (i don’t mind that). And as long as the mastery grind isn’t totally ridiculous and we’ll end up forced to grind the same events on the same zones for what would feel like an eternity, that should be fun to.

Having said all that, i don’t feel that the players should provide them with excuses. We shouldn’t. We should demand the very best of them. Unless this expansion is free, or for 5 euros, they’re not doing us any favours. They’re selling us a product. And they need to know, and understand that this won’t fly for a second time. We get that their plan didn’t work out as they wanted to and they had to change it. We even support ‘em on their new plan. But if nobody speaks up, nobody criticizes what’s happening here, all expansions will be like that. If all we do is provide excuses for them to sell us expansion with less content, that’s what they’ll do. Don’t bet on their good graces. They need to know that this is a one time only deal the community is letting slide, cause we love the game and want the best for it. We’re spending our money and our time in this world. The next expansion, should be a proper one. They need to know that. They need to feel it. Us critisising the current expansion, is exactly that. Hope this helps

Several times during the video where they showed the revenant, they talked about skills that used new technology.

A lot of the basis for this expansion wasn’t designing a dungeon, it was designing a new system to move forward. Making and testing stuff like that that’s a lot more time than making a new dungeon.

To be clear, the game wasn’t working for a lot of people because there was no feeling of progression. This changes enough of the core game to make it feel like a different game.

I get you’d rather have a dungeon. Many people would rather have a better core game.

And if you think making changes like that to the core game doesn’t take more time than making some dungeons, I’m not sure what else to tell you.

Test.8734:

Vayne.8563:

He has no proof, he only twists a couple of odd lines here and there. Adds 2 and 2 and gets 22.

So you are saying I have no proof, while you have been unable to provide any evidence… And when I do show evidence (which again, is something you have failed to do all this time), you claim it doesn’t matter because it doesn’t agree with you.

Ironically, this…

Vayne.8563:

He’s made up his mind and nothing anyone can say will change that, even though it’s clearly based on bias and not evidence.

…Is exactly what you are doing.

The lie is out there, Vayne. You cannot hide it.

Actually it’s very easy to understand this,. but I’ll try again. I didn’t make a definitive statement. I didn’t say Anet lied or the manifesto was a lie. You made that definitive statement.

You have to prove a statement you made. I don’t have to prove something that I remember that disproves it. The burden of proof is on you. And you don’t have that proof.

And I’m pretty sure most people can see exactly what you’re doing.

If I’d made that statement first, without evidence to back it up, I’d feel I’d need a whole lot more evidence than you’re providing.

I’m thinking HoT is more geared toward zerg splitting, rather than encouraging zerging. A lot of the game has been moving in that direction.

I don’t see any reason for them to change that.

pdavis.8031:

Test.8734:

Vayne.8563:

I really do hope no one applies your standards to you in life, because they’re massively unfair.

Sorry, but using evidence to believe in things as opposed to believing in things based merely on hearsay is rather common in my life and in yours, it’s what we call “science”.

The lie won’t go away, no matter how often you try to ignore it. ArenaNet knew they were lying when they made a Manifesto with the opposite of what they had in the game.

You still haven’t answered my questions….

He hasn’t answer any questions because he has no answers. He’s made up his mind and nothing anyone can say will change that, even though it’s clearly based on bias and not evidence.

He has no proof, he only twists a couple of odd lines here and there. Adds 2 and 2 and gets 22.

Lying implies intent, and he can’t prove intent. All he wants to do is malign.

Mudran.8105:

I think I can understand what OP meant. It is not lazy – it is just fast made zone none paid for. This is that kind of quality you get when it is for free.

Sadly the latest zones of Orr (even though it was meant as RP horrible zone) pushed the barriers too far away. Every new zone just copy from that and it is carried on and on.

So the company created something that turned against them in the end. If they would make Orr more spooky, mysterious and chilly instead annoying horrible and slaughtering, they would have more free hands to do more creative staff later on. I really hope they will see it one day how big mistake it was and how it mislead the original concept of this otherwise great game.

I think you grossly underestimate the amount of work that went into the Silverwastes. I’m assuming you didn’t do the jumpinp puzzle.

Test.8734:

Vayne.8563:

I don’t care if you remember it. I remember it. Other people in my guild remember it. And whether you believe me or not, it’s not my responsibility to back up what I say. You don’t have to believe it.

So your arguments are basically that….

• ArenaNet said what you claim they said, but it just happens to be that you don’t have any evidence of it and you don’t want to try looking for it, despite how, in your own words, it’s something ArenaNet would have "said at numerous conventions” and thus should be easy to find.

• A lot of people you know (friends/guild mates/fellow editors) remember the same thing you do, but it just happens to be that they are not part of this discussion.

• The real, tangible evidence proving you wrong, both from the time of the Manifesto and from right now, just happen to not matter.

Real smooth.

Vayne, you shouldn’t eat the lie, those things can cause indigestion. And a big fat lie like the Manifesto, well…

My argument is, you have no evidence of a lie and you’ve ignored other possible explanations for the situation because you personally don’t believe them. You claim that Anet said ascended items were always going to be in the game, but you didn’t say any specifiics about how those items were to be attains, so we don’t know if they’d be grindy. You offered to response to that.

The distance in time between the manifesto and the release of the game was well over a year. Things change in that time frame.

You have zero proof of the intentions of the people at the time of the manifesto and yet you still insist it’s a lie.

I really do hope no one applies your standards to you in life, because they’re massively unfair.

abbetd.5912:

Ayrilana.1396:

His complaint is likely coming from those who AFK at forts during defend events and also during VW after they’ve tagged enough to get credit. All these players then do is scale up the event making the active players work even more.

Events dynamically scale based on the number of active participants though. If people are not taking any action, the game detects a decrease in participation and scales down.

But if your heal is on autocast and your pet is killing stuff you are scaling up the event.

Devata.6589:

Aidenwolf.5964:

Ranael.6423:

Sorry but when you raise a reputation in WoW to get a mini that you “hunt” by doing the same daily quest everyday for more than a month you call it a farm but doing so in GW2 you call it a grind…
Did you grind or hunt Mawdrey? Did you grind or hunt your Ascended gear?

Anyway you will reject that comment saying I just debate the semantic.

Mawdrey was a massive grind…. Are you saying otherwise? Good luck with Foxfires post nerf. Of course I bought half of mine on the TP as it’s nearly impossible to gather them on your own due to RNG.

And this is exactly why things are a grind. Because this is true for most items you might like.

Actually I never bought a foxfire cluster and I made Mawdrey. It’s designed so that you only need 4 foxfire clusters a day, because you can only make 1 plant food a day. The difference was, I didn’t really need mawdrey TODAY.

If you want mawdrey fast, you pay to get mawdrey fast. If you hang out in high level zones anyway, which I often do, and you cut all the trees you find there, you’ll easily get 2 foxfire clusters a day and several times I got more than four.

So sometimes I skipped a day and made my plant food the next day. Maybe at the end it took me 30-40% longer to make Mawdrey.

But I do have Mawdrey and I didn’t grind. If you have no patience, buying is an option. If you have patience, Mawdrey isn’t a problem.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Mea.5491:

CMM.6712:

Mea.5491:

GrandmaFunk.3052:

Focusing on the “fastest way to level” is the best way to ruin the game for yourself.

Fast leveling means we get through the crappy NPE quickly which actually ruins the game experience for most of us…

I do not agree with your assessment here, and reject your usage of “us”

I said most of us…

That’s still probably inaccurate, although I don’t have the data to back it up.

For what it’s worth, among people with whom I’ve discussed the NPE, everyone wishes it was the original system, especially since the gating goes away quickly and the rewards are much better. (That said, people are very unhappy with trait unlocks, which pre-dated the NPE and dislike the hack/slash changes to the personal story — and fortunately the latter is going to be fixed soon.)

I’ve never counted the trait changes as part of the NPE either and I’ve seen very very few people in my guild who have any real problem with the NPE…and many of us level alts.

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

I would talk about WoW a lot less, if you haven’t played it. There are things in WoW you can only get from the cash shop and there’s NO OPTION to grind for those things. You can only buy them cash.

And like the stuff in the Guild Wars 2 cash shop, they’re cosmetic.

For the rest of the stuff, you can farm for stuff, or you can buy it, or you can just play the game casually and not have to buy everything that comes out. If you make the game all about acquisition and nothing else, sure you’ll probably end up grinding.

Glad I don’t play that way.

“I would talk about WoW a lot less, if you haven’t played it. There are things in WoW you can only get from the cash shop and there’s NO OPTION to grind for those things. You can only buy them cash.”

I did play it and yes there are a few of those items (so little that in a list of about 300 mounts I wanted to hunt down, only 10 where not possible because they were in the cash-shop or on a card game or something like that). Still the majority I can hunt down in the world, while the majority in GW2 I can only grind for. Really I rather have a few items I can’t get at all (without buying) and by far most that I can hunt down in the world. Then to be able to get them almost all but by far most only by grinding (or by buying) and a small number I can directly hunt down in the world.

This is because I want to have fun in the game, and I don’t consider grinding boring, not fun.

“or you can just play the game casually and not have to buy everything that comes out.” Oow I am not talking about all. Just once in a few a new thing gets added that you might like. It would still be out of reach with ‘casual’ playing.

“If you make the game all about acquisition and nothing else, sure you’ll probably end up grinding.” Well for me an MMORPG is for a large part about that yes, not only but a large part. I like the hunt. Not a problem in most MMO’s, in fact it’s a lot of fun, but in GW2 that’s just a boring grind. Nice for you, you don’t play that way but many do.. Why do you think Anet does focus so much on cosmetics? Because it knows people like that. But then they also decide to monetize that hoping people with spend cash on it instead of playing for it resulting in people grinding for it but the hunt for it is dead.

Irrelevant though. If you wanted a sparkle pony you had to buy it with cash. It was your only option. Period. End of story. Done.

Guild Wars 2 at least gives you two options for cash shop stuff.

Anyway I think your entire outlook on this whole not just grind situation but game situation is completely unrealistic. I truly believe the game you think they could make can’t be made today with today’s market situation.

“Irrelevant though. If you wanted a sparkle pony you had to buy it with cash. It was your only option. Period. End of story. Done.” We are talking about playing the game in general (and how that feels grindy to many people), not about how to get one specific item. So sorry but the only thing irrelevant here is this statement of yours.

“Guild Wars 2 at least gives you two options for cash shop stuff.” Grind (the problem we talk about) and cash. And it puts most new stuff in the in the cash-shop resulting for a big part of the grind we see. Yes.

“I truly believe the game you think they could make can’t be made today with today’s market situation.” Are you now saying.. “yeah it’s bad, but better is not possible”?, I think it is and I have seen better examples of things like hunting down items vs grind in other games.

Devata I’ve always said it’s not possible, it’s not something I suddenly thought.

We could go back to our discussion from months ago and I told you even then that the entire industry has changed and the amount of work to make a game today is greater than years ago and the amount of money it takes is greater and the competition is greater. You seemed to be locked in time, if Guild Wars 1 could do it it could work now. I don’t believe it today and I didn’t believe it six months ago.

But the more posts you make on the topic, the more justified I feel in that belief.

We’ll know more when it’s in game from the patch notes.

Cherokeewill.7504:

This is also one of the reasons I disliked playing LS2 on my Asura. There was no sense of animosity from any Sylvari I met along the way and there should have been something considering what we witnessed with Vorpp. It seems odd to have a story so rooted in racial identity with no nod to the complexities of race relations in Tyria. Anet has done such a good job with humans and Charr in Ascalon that I felt this aspect of the story very lacking.

It’s a bit different with Sylvari though, because they’re only a 25 year old race and not every Sylvari would have known about that. Some would through the dream, but many wouldn’t.

It’s not like Sylvari are born young and go to school for 12 years before they go out into the world and learn what’s what. Many are naive or lack knowledge, because they just know what they know from the dream.

And even with knowledge, many don’t know how to react. I mean Trahearne probably wouldn’t judge all Asura by what those people did 20 years ago. And Caithe has her own stuff to deal with.

I’m pretty sure the Nightmare Court is far worse to her than any Asuran.

Many.8419:

Start giving numbers or stop assuming anything. You have no idea how many ppl play dungeons or pvp or open world or wvw. I don’t know either. But I don’t assume your content is less important than my content. All of you against dungeons are using an argument ‘shut up, you’re too little to demand’ which is a hilarious attitude.

I’m voicing my need for new dungeons. I can see I am not alone. This is not a new feature, we already have dungeons. Why can’t we have some more? Dungeoneers don’t want to make this game a dungeon crawler but after almost 3 years some fixes to dungeons and a couple of new ones isnt too much to ask I think.

Unless a red post shows up with DETAILED DATA about dungeon participation and reasoning why we don’t matter to them. With such info proven by numbers I can discuss. Everything else is just pure assumption from dungeon haters spreading misinformation and bad mouthing dungeoneers.

P.S. Call Robert Hrouda. He can show you how to handle dungeons and community with respect.

I actually assume that if a company stops supporting something they have a good reason for doing so. If they continue to support something they have a good reason for doing so.

I’m not making up numbers, I’m watching the companies behavior and drawing conclusions. And also using what I know from other MMOs to guide those conclusions.

Sure it’s a guess, but it’s an educated one. Whether you agree or not, that’s the conclusion I’ve come to.

Test.8734:

PorceleinEve.2973:

If they have been working on this for years, it’s bloody amazing they haven’t got a betah yet, and some of the specializations and the revenant details are not final yet. Realistically speaking they haven’t been working on this for years. Cause they wanted the living story to be their thing. And it just didn’t work out for them. China didn’t go as stellar as they hoped either. That’s why we’re getting this living story + feature patch “expansion” now. I mean truly, if all we get is 3 to 4 new zones, a new class and masteries after 2.5 years of development, we’re pretty much doomed. 2,5 years and they couldn’t add a dungeon? Some new fractals? A new race? Fix underwater combat? or add the ability to have skills/traits templates? Hell not even the ability for rangers to perma name their pets! I think it’s time we faced the reality of our situation. This is a filler expansion while they’ll start working on a proper one later on. We’ll get stelar quality living story content for the price of an expansion and a possibly cool (i most certainly hope so) feature patch. And that’s ok.

Very well said. It’s obvious that ArenaNet has not been working on HoT for years now. The expansion is likely the result of panic after the China release underperformed, delivering little more than an upped version of the living world.

But they did develop new technology just for this expansion and that technology, upon which the expansion is based, could have easily taken a year by itself.

If that’s the case then the stuff that depends on that technology started later than the rest of it, and still isn’t finished.

We don’t know how much new tech was designed for this, but we know there IS new tech.

And that’s the problem with making assumptions. And expansion can take two years before it gets to beta if you have to redesign the base game to accomodate it.

LucosTheDutch.4819:

Vayne.8563:

LucosTheDutch.4819:

Vayne.8563:

LucosTheDutch.4819:

Aidenwolf.5964:

LucosTheDutch.4819:

You’re right Test. But this horse has been beaten to death over and over and it doesn’t seem like Vayne wants to listen to reason.

I have another topic to discuss about regarding grind:

Would you guys be okay with grind if the content you’re grinding was more difficult, engaging or interesting? People seem to enjoy grinding the bejesus out of the Silverwastes map. Could it be because the Silverwastes is a more challenging map that also has a purpose and a bit of variety to it? I think so.

I personally don’t think GW2 is more grindy than other MMOs, but it feels like GW2 is more grindy because GW2’s content is limited, stale, predictable and too easy. What do you think?

You continue to assert that the manifesto didn’t reference gear grind. Colin specified in this very post that in fact gear was exactly what the manifesto meant. You’re stuck in a loop while the actual clarification you say is somewhere in cyber space that backs your claims is in fact on page 4 of this post and refutes your claims. Colin stated that the manifesto against grind did in fact mean gear grind. You’re not arguing semantics you’re arguing against confirmed fact.

I think you quoted the wrong person here friend. :P I’m not Vayne.

It’s okay, I’m ignoring the lot of you now anyway. Since you have pretty much called my a liar, saying that what I said couldn’t be said and since I don’t have time these days to look through hours and hours of four year old videos, it’s easier just to move on.

Hope someone does take the time to do that and proves what I’m saying, but it really doesn’t matter.

I’m not calling you a liar, unless you’d argue that the manifesto specifically states that gear grind is not a part of the no-grind philosophy (because that would be a lie). I’m just saying that the post you make are completely irrelevant and you keep this discussion going in circles instead of moving forward to more relevant topics regarding grind in GW2.

Seriously, whenever I read a post from you or anyone else about the semantics of the manifesto I’m yelling “O MY GOD WHO THE HELL CARES?” to my screen (well, not really, but I yell it in my mind).

There is a person in this thread who said Anet lied. That Colin lied. Everyone is a liar. You may think that behavior is acceptable, but I don’t. If you guys want to believe what you think the manifesto said despite what Anet said about it around the time it was made, that’s fine. I don’t care.

If you want to malign people who are hard working developers on the flimiest of evidence that would be laughed out of any court of law, that’s another story.

You guys want to talk about grind, surely you can do it without directly attacking people.

You’re barking up the wrong tree here mate. I never called Anet or Colin a liar and I never attacked either of them.

I am, however, unhappy with the direction Anet took GW2 in and I am here to discuss the grind we have in GW2 and who the game feels so grindy and how Anet could potentially solve this feeling. I am not here to discuss semantics or irrelevant details about what has or has not been written in the manifesto.

I never replied to you till you attacked me. Read through Test’s posts. It was him calling people a liar that pulled me into this to this degree. I responded to him, you responded to me.

At that point, since I’m defending against him I also have to defend against you. If you want to support those kind of allegations, go ahead. But if you respond to me, you can bet I’ll respond to you.

As I said many times, there were changes in the game. It’s obvious there were. I don’t believe most of those changes were intended from the days of the manifesto, I believe they resulted from something else completely.

I still think that it’s easy to tell people they were wrong to add ascended gear without having all the fact, and none of us have those facts.

But the facts we do have are definitely being twisted by someone who is out to malign the company. And I’m not really okay with that.

LucosTheDutch.4819:

Vayne.8563:

LucosTheDutch.4819:

Aidenwolf.5964:

LucosTheDutch.4819:

You’re right Test. But this horse has been beaten to death over and over and it doesn’t seem like Vayne wants to listen to reason.

I have another topic to discuss about regarding grind:

Would you guys be okay with grind if the content you’re grinding was more difficult, engaging or interesting? People seem to enjoy grinding the bejesus out of the Silverwastes map. Could it be because the Silverwastes is a more challenging map that also has a purpose and a bit of variety to it? I think so.

I personally don’t think GW2 is more grindy than other MMOs, but it feels like GW2 is more grindy because GW2’s content is limited, stale, predictable and too easy. What do you think?

You continue to assert that the manifesto didn’t reference gear grind. Colin specified in this very post that in fact gear was exactly what the manifesto meant. You’re stuck in a loop while the actual clarification you say is somewhere in cyber space that backs your claims is in fact on page 4 of this post and refutes your claims. Colin stated that the manifesto against grind did in fact mean gear grind. You’re not arguing semantics you’re arguing against confirmed fact.

I think you quoted the wrong person here friend. :P I’m not Vayne.

It’s okay, I’m ignoring the lot of you now anyway. Since you have pretty much called my a liar, saying that what I said couldn’t be said and since I don’t have time these days to look through hours and hours of four year old videos, it’s easier just to move on.

Hope someone does take the time to do that and proves what I’m saying, but it really doesn’t matter.

I’m not calling you a liar, unless you’d argue that the manifesto specifically states that gear grind is not a part of the no-grind philosophy (because that would be a lie). I’m just saying that the post you make are completely irrelevant and you keep this discussion going in circles instead of moving forward to more relevant topics regarding grind in GW2.

Seriously, whenever I read a post from you or anyone else about the semantics of the manifesto I’m yelling “O MY GOD WHO THE HELL CARES?” to my screen (well, not really, but I yell it in my mind).

There is a person in this thread who said Anet lied. That Colin lied. Everyone is a liar. You may think that behavior is acceptable, but I don’t. If you guys want to believe what you think the manifesto said despite what Anet said about it around the time it was made, that’s fine. I don’t care.

If you want to malign people who are hard working developers on the flimiest of evidence that would be laughed out of any court of law, that’s another story.

You guys want to talk about grind, surely you can do it without directly attacking people.

Many.8419:

The amount of bias from dungeon haters is beyond ridiculous.

‘toxic’ can be told about every part of this game, because haters like to be oversensitive and make singular examples a general rule. This is like racism works you know.

And to those saying dungeons are a tiny part – I find my dungeon group faster than pvp match. So unless you have numbers providing proof to your semantics plz stop jumping to conclusions.

Dungeoneers want to have fan within our community. If you like open world, more power to ya. We don’t want to play with each other anyway. The reason between dungeon haters and dungeoneers is we don’t mind you having your open world fun but you are negating our right to have fun with our community. This is example of hypocricy and toxic behaviour.

If dungeons are such a major part of the game, why is Anet not paying them any attention? I’m curious.

Seems they talk a lot about PvP and have a PvP show, even. And they do run WvW tournaments, and they’re adding a new map and making changes. If so many people were running dungeons by percentage, why wouldn’t Anet support them more?

It’s true that there may be enough people to have a relatively small dungeon community and still not have to wait long for dungeon queues, but you know, it’s only five guys at a time. And some guys spam dungeons, so they keep going in, keeping the pool alive.

I’m guessing that only a small percentage of the playerbase regularly does dungeons. I sort of suspect that the living world wouldn’t be the living world if everyone were ignoring it and doing dungeons.

LucosTheDutch.4819:

Aidenwolf.5964:

LucosTheDutch.4819:

You’re right Test. But this horse has been beaten to death over and over and it doesn’t seem like Vayne wants to listen to reason.

I have another topic to discuss about regarding grind:

Would you guys be okay with grind if the content you’re grinding was more difficult, engaging or interesting? People seem to enjoy grinding the bejesus out of the Silverwastes map. Could it be because the Silverwastes is a more challenging map that also has a purpose and a bit of variety to it? I think so.

I personally don’t think GW2 is more grindy than other MMOs, but it feels like GW2 is more grindy because GW2’s content is limited, stale, predictable and too easy. What do you think?

You continue to assert that the manifesto didn’t reference gear grind. Colin specified in this very post that in fact gear was exactly what the manifesto meant. You’re stuck in a loop while the actual clarification you say is somewhere in cyber space that backs your claims is in fact on page 4 of this post and refutes your claims. Colin stated that the manifesto against grind did in fact mean gear grind. You’re not arguing semantics you’re arguing against confirmed fact.

I think you quoted the wrong person here friend. :P I’m not Vayne.

It’s okay, I’m ignoring the lot of you now anyway. Since you have pretty much called my a liar, saying that what I said couldn’t be said and since I don’t have time these days to look through hours and hours of four year old videos, it’s easier just to move on.

Hope someone does take the time to do that and proves what I’m saying, but it really doesn’t matter.

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

I would talk about WoW a lot less, if you haven’t played it. There are things in WoW you can only get from the cash shop and there’s NO OPTION to grind for those things. You can only buy them cash.

And like the stuff in the Guild Wars 2 cash shop, they’re cosmetic.

For the rest of the stuff, you can farm for stuff, or you can buy it, or you can just play the game casually and not have to buy everything that comes out. If you make the game all about acquisition and nothing else, sure you’ll probably end up grinding.

Glad I don’t play that way.

“I would talk about WoW a lot less, if you haven’t played it. There are things in WoW you can only get from the cash shop and there’s NO OPTION to grind for those things. You can only buy them cash.”

I did play it and yes there are a few of those items (so little that in a list of about 300 mounts I wanted to hunt down, only 10 where not possible because they were in the cash-shop or on a card game or something like that). Still the majority I can hunt down in the world, while the majority in GW2 I can only grind for. Really I rather have a few items I can’t get at all (without buying) and by far most that I can hunt down in the world. Then to be able to get them almost all but by far most only by grinding (or by buying) and a small number I can directly hunt down in the world.

This is because I want to have fun in the game, and I don’t consider grinding boring, not fun.

“or you can just play the game casually and not have to buy everything that comes out.” Oow I am not talking about all. Just once in a few a new thing gets added that you might like. It would still be out of reach with ‘casual’ playing.

“If you make the game all about acquisition and nothing else, sure you’ll probably end up grinding.” Well for me an MMORPG is for a large part about that yes, not only but a large part. I like the hunt. Not a problem in most MMO’s, in fact it’s a lot of fun, but in GW2 that’s just a boring grind. Nice for you, you don’t play that way but many do.. Why do you think Anet does focus so much on cosmetics? Because it knows people like that. But then they also decide to monetize that hoping people with spend cash on it instead of playing for it resulting in people grinding for it but the hunt for it is dead.

Irrelevant though. If you wanted a sparkle pony you had to buy it with cash. It was your only option. Period. End of story. Done.

Guild Wars 2 at least gives you two options for cash shop stuff.

Anyway I think your entire outlook on this whole not just grind situation but game situation is completely unrealistic. I truly believe the game you think they could make can’t be made today with today’s market situation.

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

~

“You can be as sarcastic as you like. People have always grinded in games including Guild Wars 1. Guild Wars 1 was filled with things to grind for..but you didn’t have to. That’s the trade off.”

You did not have to.. the most bad excuse ever if it comes to grind. But sure your right. If I want the flying carpet in WoW I can do a craft for it, if I want a mini in that game most of them I can earn with quest or as a drop from a dungeon or get with a craft.

In GW2 if I want to hunt down such things I have 2 options buy them (what is not playing) or grind gold. So in order to get them I have to grind!

Then you say.. but you do not need the items. Sure, in WoW in order to do the highest level raids you need to grind for gear (or at least so they told me, I did never try that). But of course that would then also not be valid because you do not have to do the highest level raids.

So if I would be to follow this logic grind is always optional, it’s only not optional IF you want something. In GW2 it’s not optional IF you want to collect cosmetics, in WoW it’s not optional IF you want to do highest level raids and because it’s an IF it does not could. So the term grind is a fantasy word, it does not exist (in games). At least by following this “you don’t have to, so it does not count” logic.

Now back to reality, I never said people should not be allowed to grind or games may not allow for grind. The problem here is that it’s the only option IF you want something (like cosmetics) while the game-play of hunting then down in the world has been replaced by the grind. Now you might not consider it grind because it’s optional but that does not change the fact that for other people it does matter. And maybe enough to matter for the game as a whole.

“There is ZERO percent chance that a game company can make content fast enough for people to keep playing it without something to work towards.”

While false (I still play Wolfenstein:ET and in fact prefer the original maps.. A game out of development for what.. 10 years?) but irrelevant because it’s great what you say.. I want to work towards things.. I want to work towards those cosmetics by hunting them down, not by grinding some currency for them. So the goals Anet creates would still be the same, the way to achieve the goal however would be another mechanic then grind (or buy).

“You have to have long term goals. You want to call that grinding, you’re perfectly entitled to.” No I don’t consider any long term goal grinding, I consider grinding for gold to get almost any item (long term or short term) grinding.

“But you can work on the same goals slowly without grinding too. That then becomes a choice.” Not true, they will add new items faster than you would ever earn the stuff by normal playing (depending on your playstyle) plus that because other people grind, prices will go up meaning those who don’t will always be behind (you want item x, cost 5 gold, you get 5 gold by now it cost 6 gold, you got 6 gold it cost 6,1 and then the next step you manage to get it, meanwhile 5 new items you like were added.).

“But if I were in a game where the only gear better than mine was in a specific dungeon, to get that gear I’d have to run that dungeon repeatedly, which to me IS grind. There is no other option but to run that dungeon.” But that is only IF you want that better gear, so it’s optional, That then becomes a choice. So no grind if I follow what you did say before.

“Someone who likes to hang out in Queensdale can level to 80 in Queensdale. Do you know how few MMOs that’s true of?” Not sure how that is relevant.

I would talk about WoW a lot less, if you haven’t played it. There are things in WoW you can only get from the cash shop and there’s NO OPTION to grind for those things. You can only buy them cash.

And like the stuff in the Guild Wars 2 cash shop, they’re cosmetic.

For the rest of the stuff, you can farm for stuff, or you can buy it, or you can just play the game casually and not have to buy everything that comes out. If you make the game all about acquisition and nothing else, sure you’ll probably end up grinding.

Glad I don’t play that way.

Devata.6589:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

Coffee.7058:

Celtic Lady.3729:

Oh, okay. lol I didn’t realize there are many trains left in the game. The only one that comes to mind atm is the Frostgorge Champ train.

Silverwaste, you have to logout and in a few times to get one or use group finder, but that is usually empty for myself.

The world boss train is still run too.

People grinding using the boss train, frostgorge champ train, EotM train and Silverwaist train. This mainly to be able to buy the (not required) items they want. But people who complain about the game being grindy are out of their mind, there is no grind because there are multiple choices of grind so all the grind does not count as grind.

Yeah makes sense. [/sarcasm]

Surely you realize it’s also likely they grind doing that because there’s literally (not practically, literally) nothing else to be doing once you’ve had a turn at everything else. Or, to be blunt, anything they care to be doing.

Sort of like how people would “grind” things in GW1 because it was potentially lucrative. Or fun, but since having fun is forbidden . . .

Sure, so people grind because there is nothing else to do. But then my request would still be the same. Let me hunt down items directly instead of having only the grind option for them. Then there would be stuff to do, hunting down items.

But you can hunt down items right now. You don’t have to buy collections off the TP, you can do the events and kill the bosses that drop those items, which is exactly what you’re asking for.

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

Coffee.7058:

Celtic Lady.3729:

Oh, okay. lol I didn’t realize there are many trains left in the game. The only one that comes to mind atm is the Frostgorge Champ train.

Silverwaste, you have to logout and in a few times to get one or use group finder, but that is usually empty for myself.

The world boss train is still run too.

People grinding using the boss train, frostgorge champ train, EotM train and Silverwaist train. This mainly to be able to buy the (not required) items they want. But people who complain about the game being grindy are out of their mind, there is no grind because there are multiple choices of grind so all the grind does not count as grind.

Yeah makes sense. [/sarcasm]

You can be as sarcastic as you like. People have always grinded in games including Guild Wars 1. Guild Wars 1 was filled with things to grind for..but you didn’t have to. That’s the trade off.

There is ZERO percent chance that a game company can make content fast enough for people to keep playing it without something to work towards. You have to have long term goals. You want to call that grinding, you’re perfectly entitled to.

But you can work on the same goals slowly without grinding too. That then becomes a choice.

But if I were in a game where the only gear better than mine was in a specific dungeon, to get that gear I’d have to run that dungeon repeatedly, which to me IS grind. There is no other option but to run that dungeon.

Someone who likes to hang out in Queensdale can level to 80 in Queensdale. Do you know how few MMOs that’s true of?

petespri.6548:

Well you can’t both be right.

I remember them saying that you.would be.equal at.cap with no grind.

Colin confirmed that they changed their minds. I still am upset over it, but it isn’t my.call… But it does give me pause on.the expansion.

The game has definitely changed direction. There’s no question about that. Because games do evolve and some things people think will work won’t work. Rift had to change direction, Wildstar had to change direction and probably did too late…if games don’t evolve they die.

Inevitably they lose people in that process…but that’s what happens to MMOs. Anet lost a lot of people when they came out with ascended gear, but they also gained some, and kept some.

Was it a bad gamble? Maybe. I don’t know how we’ll ever know for sure.

Aidenwolf.5964:

Vayne.8563:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Vayne.8563:

Sorry Tobias, I’m not arguing semantics at all. I said Anet said something which I know for a fact they said. That’s not a semantic argument. I simply won’t trawl through dozens of four year old videos to find the proof.

But that’s not a semantic argument. Anet did use the Shadow Behemoth as a specific example of what they meant when they were talking about not grinding to get to the fun stuff. They said you get the fun stuff throughout the game. It’s not like other games where you have to grind to level before you get to the fun stuff.

I’m sure I’m not the only guy who remembers, but how is that a semantic argument. Test is claiming it never happened. He’s wrong.

Oh, Vayne, my friend . . . there’s not the semantics being argued. And you’re losing yourself in the inconsequential bits of the argument by being just constantly distracted by remembering the Manifesto and other interviews and all that. They’re not important at all.

No, the heart of the matter is the semantics around the topic of “grind”. See, that’s where all the argument is springing from. Some people feel there is grind which is unavoidable, and some others . . . like myself . . . feel the grind exists but is unimportant to the game – a postscript, something to do while waiting for something else to do.

(Why else does Fractals exist other than sheer busywork?)

Whatever the Manifesto said is irrelevant. Even Colin, straight up, admitted there was a problem with how to acquire Ascended Gear. But also that he felt it didn’t betray the design ideals they developed under. I sort of agree. It’s grindy as Grenth’s molars. It’s also entirely unnecessary to see every aspect of the game.

But what I think doesn’t really matter either. It’s a distracting set of thoughts which basically draws away from the heart of the issue.

People feel there is grind. Others disagree on whether it matters, and thus it descends into semantics with tons of side-shows.

Honestly? I just want people to stop trying to make me ashamed for liking the game.

See when I see fans say someone is lying, and there are other explanations available, I want to make sure those other explanations are in plain site. Sure, the grind conversation is not furthered by this, nor is it furthered by calling people liars. I’m not even sure why that’s allowed, because it’s maligning something.

If what I say is true (and it is) then the definition of grind gets further enhancement from what was said back then. I mean you can hardly discuss grind without discussing what grind is and means.

Anet was pretty kitten ed clear back then, and just because some people don’t remember it, doesn’t mean it wasn’t said.

So yeah, maybe it is a distraction from the main argument, but knowing that that was at least part of what Anet meant, because they said so BACK THEN, does change the complexion of the argument.

You have the time to continually post saying you’re right but refuse to spend any of your time to Google and link this empirical data that proves your veracity and cements your forum supremacy? I’ve followed GW2 as long as you have if not longer and I recall the no grind interviews and my take away was always that GW2 was a game where everyone was equal at cap, no gear grind, it was about skill. I’ll put my memory against anyones.

I don’t care if you remember it. I remember it. Other people in my guild remember it. And whether you believe me or not, it’s not my responsibility to back up what I say. You don’t have to believe it.

If I remember seeing a ride at Disneyworld and I express my recollection, that’s it. That’s how I recall it. I don’t go through old tapes because your belief doesn’t make something true or not true.

If it was text and not videos, I’d go through it, because search functions make that easy, but contrary to popular belief, I don’t have blocks of time to sit down and watch videos to find it.

But my recollection of the event isn’t wrong. I don’t care if you remember it or not…it absolutely happens.

Maybe after I’ve finished moving, and then my trip which will take me away for six weeks, I MIGHT have time to look for those videos, but not now. All I do now is answer some posts while taking a break from packing up my house.

You can call me a liar if you want, but you’d be wrong.

Monoman.2068:

Well I only care about my necromancer and ranger and making builds for the two. My ranger is solid but I’m interested in the necromancer specialization. So I’ll only be getting the expansion if the necromancer specialization is interesting enough and if the revenant has access to 100% mobility in some form without traveler runes.

Speaking of specializations, I’m assuming they will rear their heads in pvp zones which sounds like a recipe for disaster.

@Vayne: They probably call it a feature pack by comparison to other mmo’s because anets definition of a feature pack is usually mediocre at best.

Pretty sure that the revenant doesn’t have out of combat speed boost, at least according to one of the interviews.

As for what they have in other games, it’s hardly relevant, because without raising the level cap and a new tier of gear, it’s just a bunch of zones you play through to get to the last zone in most games, and you never go back to those zones again. And that’s what the problem has always been.

The only thing that should really be compared is how long you can play the expansion without getting through all the content. It takes a month or two to get done with a WoW expansion pretty much completely.

We certainly don’t get a month or two out of feature packs.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Vayne.8563:

Sorry Tobias, I’m not arguing semantics at all. I said Anet said something which I know for a fact they said. That’s not a semantic argument. I simply won’t trawl through dozens of four year old videos to find the proof.

But that’s not a semantic argument. Anet did use the Shadow Behemoth as a specific example of what they meant when they were talking about not grinding to get to the fun stuff. They said you get the fun stuff throughout the game. It’s not like other games where you have to grind to level before you get to the fun stuff.

I’m sure I’m not the only guy who remembers, but how is that a semantic argument. Test is claiming it never happened. He’s wrong.

Oh, Vayne, my friend . . . there’s not the semantics being argued. And you’re losing yourself in the inconsequential bits of the argument by being just constantly distracted by remembering the Manifesto and other interviews and all that. They’re not important at all.

No, the heart of the matter is the semantics around the topic of “grind”. See, that’s where all the argument is springing from. Some people feel there is grind which is unavoidable, and some others . . . like myself . . . feel the grind exists but is unimportant to the game – a postscript, something to do while waiting for something else to do.

(Why else does Fractals exist other than sheer busywork?)

Whatever the Manifesto said is irrelevant. Even Colin, straight up, admitted there was a problem with how to acquire Ascended Gear. But also that he felt it didn’t betray the design ideals they developed under. I sort of agree. It’s grindy as Grenth’s molars. It’s also entirely unnecessary to see every aspect of the game.

But what I think doesn’t really matter either. It’s a distracting set of thoughts which basically draws away from the heart of the issue.

People feel there is grind. Others disagree on whether it matters, and thus it descends into semantics with tons of side-shows.

Honestly? I just want people to stop trying to make me ashamed for liking the game.

See when I see fans say someone is lying, and there are other explanations available, I want to make sure those other explanations are in plain site. Sure, the grind conversation is not furthered by this, nor is it furthered by calling people liars. I’m not even sure why that’s allowed, because it’s maligning something.

If what I say is true (and it is) then the definition of grind gets further enhancement from what was said back then. I mean you can hardly discuss grind without discussing what grind is and means.

Anet was pretty kitten ed clear back then, and just because some people don’t remember it, doesn’t mean it wasn’t said.

So yeah, maybe it is a distraction from the main argument, but knowing that that was at least part of what Anet meant, because they said so BACK THEN, does change the complexion of the argument.

Okay I don’t get those who call HoT a feature pack. Aside from giving us a whole new story (which I assume won’t be just a chapter) and a new profession, it’s also giving us new specializations which comes with the use of a new weapon, new elite skill, new healing skill, new utility skill and new traits for each profession via the specialization. Guild Halls and harder content (which they’ve hardly touched on yet). New technology for skills. You call that a feature pack?

Okay then.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

LucosTheDutch.4819:

Guys honest question: why are we still replying to Vayne?

This is a good question. Considering neither of you or Vayne have decided to stake out a common ground to talk about, there’s not really a discussion here. Just a war over semantics.

(Which is incredibly amusing to watch. I made caramel popcorn just to eat while I watch.)

Sorry Tobias, I’m not arguing semantics at all. I said Anet said something which I know for a fact they said. That’s not a semantic argument. I simply won’t trawl through dozens of four year old videos to find the proof.

But that’s not a semantic argument. Anet did use the Shadow Behemoth as a specific example of what they meant when they were talking about not grinding to get to the fun stuff. They said you get the fun stuff throughout the game. It’s not like other games where you have to grind to level before you get to the fun stuff.

I’m sure I’m not the only guy who remembers, but how is that a semantic argument. Test is claiming it never happened. He’s wrong.

Test.8734:

Vayne.8563:

So you discount every single thing said at numerous conventions at the time about the manifesto. k, then.

We can let each person reading decide if that makes sense or not.

It doesn’t make any sense.

And it’s exactly what you are doing.

You love to dodge this, so I’ll mention it again – you have no proof of what you are talking about. Your “every single thing said at numerous conventions at the time” supporting your claims has never been given a link. And do you know why? Because it doesn’t exist.

What does exist is the Manifesto. What does exist is the written Manifesto, where ArenaNet talks about grinding for rewards, and never about grinding to level up.

The “I’m an editor so I know what I’m talking about” claim is the kind of assumption you were so heavily maligning some posts ago. The evidence, meanwhile, proves you wrong.

I’m sure other people can back me up that that was what was said. Me not providing a link because I don’t want to troll through countless videos made four years ago does not equate something not being said. In fact there are many many times in the past were I didn’t bother looking for a link the people denied were true and someone else provided the link.

And you know, it matters not even a jot whether you personally believe it or not, it happened.

But four year old videos are harder to dig up than five minute old quotes. I spent enough of my life having to research for professional purposes so that doing so in my free time doesn’t appeal to me.

People DO remember, and I’m not alone and if people really care they can look for the original games con and pax panels, I’m sure they’re up somewhere.

But me not wanting to troll through old videos doesn’t mean something didn’t happen. Whether you believe it or not is competely 100% irrelevant to it happening.