Guild Wars 2

Devata.6589:

In the end, what is most important about the grind discussion is that if people experience grind, that will likely be one of the biggest reasons to start disliking a game, making people feel bored by a game.

Grind might be a good way to keep people busy for a while when you would have a lack of content but eventually people will simply get burned out or bored by the game. Then you can make a beautiful world, come with a lot of great QoL improvements, have an ongoing story, be very innovative, fix huge issues like temporary content, have great animations, have a great movement system and have a lot of potential. (All things than you could apply to GW2).

When you end up with a game that many people consider boring (because of grind) people will not like is and walk away from the game. That is the main problem of the grind and is also why Anet should do something about it.

Except for those people who claim to like to grind.

Unequip it and then look at the options again.

Simzani.4318:

http://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/Employee-Review-ArenaNet-RVW4234884.htm

Some other reviews mention it too. Reviews mention that arenanet rarely hire and rely quasi-exclusively on contractors. I now wait for my posts to be moderated and my account banned, as usual when I mention those things.

If Arenanet rarely hire, how do they have 300 plus people working there?

Can’t argue about the QA but I’m pretty sure we’ve seen QA people on live streams. They may well hire addition QA outsourced but I’m sure they have their own people as well.

Simzani.4318:

It is not really a beta, it is more an advertising for their dlc. Don’t forget that it’s a ls season + feature pack, there is not many things to test. And don’t also forget that arenanet don’t have a qa team, it is outsourced.

It’s outsourced? Can you give me a source on that, because I believe it’s completely incorrect.

HawkMeister.4758:

ESO is NOT for the average GW2 player.
Plain & simple.
The art style is gothic/realistic, “mature” if you will, while GW2 is pretty much the exact opposite ( childish? :p ).

The PvE is more old fashioned thus structured and takes place INSIDE the actual world. Unlike GW2 chaotic and disjointed FAUX “living world”.
Come on, guys.
Nobody can be that stupid believing this living world crap after actually leveling in a map that has the event daily running.
And I hope nobody here seriously tries to argue with the failed Living Story as an example for a good “living world”.

I´m not arguing about the PvP part. Haven´t tried it in both games much
In GW2 the WuwWuw bored me to tears after a week, while I left ESO too early to get a good handle on it. But ESO at least had an actual PvP MAP instead of GW2´s Zerg racetracks. I could care less about eSports ( actually no I can´t ).

So those people saying the living world exists here are stupid? Okay then.

sorudo.9054:

maybe because you’re not a TES player?
i love ESO, the lore is interesting, the quests are dynamic, the world is alive all the time.
it even has a battle system that can be used by your self, unlike GW2 it’s not all autopilot.

it’s still to each their own but to say it’s a bad game shows ignorance, clearly there are plenty of ppl saying the exact same thing about GW2 and do like ESO.
i like both, GW2 for the fantasy settings and fast battles and ESO for the lush world and self control of battles.

if anything, GW2 is less what GW1 is while ESO is more so, based on player skill not time and gear.

You may be right, but I just don’t think ESO is that popular. At this moment the Elder Scrolls Online reddit has 160 people online compared to the Guild Wars 2 reddit which has 737 Online. Now of course reddit doesn’t mean everything, but when you realize that this game JUST went free to play, that’s a shockingly low turnout for their reddit.

Looking at this Xfire page http://classic.xfire.com/cms/stats/ we see that Guild Wars 2 is at the moment in the top ten, where as ESO isn’t even in the Top 20.

It might not be a bad game, but there is plenty about it that is problematical. Because if they could have kept charging a sub, they would have.

It may be that when the game is out on consoles it’ll do better, but it hasn’t really captured the public imagination, and considering that it should have soared, piggybacking off Skyrim was it did, well, it’s just a kitten ed shame.

The game felt completely generic to me, and even though quests were all voiced, most of the ones in the early going were so mundane, I can’t imagine how anyone stayed around long enough to find out if the game got better. I know I couldn’t.

ckotoc.5421:

Eso is buy to play now like gw2.

Not quite exactly like Guild Wars 2, there’s still an optional subscription.

Jerus.4350:

Dry top sucks except for karma, the idea that people haven’t heard of chest farming for months now… I mean you yourself felt the need to exaggerate to prove a pointabout it being a month… no, people have heard of chest farming, I’ve yet to encounter those who haven;t that arent extremely casual about playing. You say you have a gguild of 200, I’m in a guild of almost 400 and pretty sure all those that actually play have heard of it.

You’ve yet to hear of anyone. People still post questions about what it is, and those are people that visit forums. Sorry but you’re grossly overestimating the “average” player. It’s a pretty well known fact that most MMO players never visit forums much less post on them. We represent a small percentage of the player base.

There are people who entered the Silverwastes once, got owned by mordrem and never went back and they’ve posted here.

Not sure why you haven’t read any of those posts.

Jerus.4350:

Vayne.8563:

Vayne.8563:

<snip>

Zone doesn’t debunk the theory since the chest farm in the Silverwastes is a month old and dungeons have been around a while. There are people who don’t have a clue that the Silverwastes can give you money. A lot of people. I run into them all the time.

There are still people running around who think that four warriors and a mesmer are the ideal dungeon grouping.

More to the point, no one can say the dungeon running population hasn’t fallen off since the Silverwastes has become so profitable. I assume it has. I know people who used to run dungeons for money who now spend more time in the Silverwastes.

So unless you have evidence the dungeon running population hasn’t decreased, I’m not sure what your point is.

Really, a month old? hasn’t it been out since last year?

You’re telling me that these people in dungeons doing them daily are simply ignorant as to the possibility of chest farms… sorry, but that’s not only dumb but pretty offensive. The people who actually get good rewards from dungoens are the people who do a bit of research into the game and learn to do things with at least somewhat of a leaning towards optimisation, otherwise dungeons kinda suck. And they don’t bother to realize the amazing loot given for pretty much running in circles in SW, i find that hard to believe.

There certainly are people who run dungeons with the old meta in mind, that only strengthens my thought that people would rather run dungeons than farm boring content.

This is a game, people seek a certain level of entertainment out of it. Mindlessly picking up loot isn’t something I consider fun, I much rather have to work a little for my rewards. I can’t help but feel these people think the same. The idea that people havne’t heard of SW chest farming just seems so ridiculous that I’m astonished to see it used as an argument. It;s literally free loot, who doesn’t talk about it? Visit the forums once a month and you’ve surely seen it. Watch Map chat in Lions Arch and you’ve heard of it. Go do Living Story, the lifeblood of the game, and you’ve encountered it. It’s just an absurdity I can’t agree with, not for those farming gold. The casual player, sure, maybe, but they’re not going to be ever present on any demographic as you’d of had to be living in a cave (the real world) for the last couple months to not have heard of it.

LMAO! Offensive. Have you looked at the player base?

You think everyone is on the forums, researching the game like it’s a second career. There are many who are just creatures of habit and do what they always did. Not a few. Many. Most? I don’t know that but I know many from long experience.

There are people playing this game who haven’t been to Drytop yet.

Devildoc.6721:

Ardenwolfe.8590:

It took me two beta trials to know ESO’s fate. It’s also the first game, I did not buy after I tried the beta when the game went live. Ever.

The fate was going the same business model as GW2.

It’s also changed in massive ways.

The last patch log was 80 pages long.

It’s very rare a game gets a second chance. I mean it has happened, but there are many MMOs that have made huge improvements after launch that people gave up on anyway.

Final Fantasy XIV was an exception but most MMOs don’t get that luxury. ESO has the console advantage, but even with that, I think for many that ship has sailed. It doesn’t really help that Archeage and Wildstar both had bad launches. I’m always going to play an MMO, but that’s not true for most people. Many people walk away from the genre.

I know this is annoying as hell but if you zone with them both in your inventory, they’ll stack afterwards. It’s one of the bugs they haven’t yet fixed.

For those who don’t know, stress tests are there to test server loads. Stress tests can be unpredictable because they try to overload the server intentionally. So you might get disconnects or you might get extreme lag. It’s happened in every stress test I’ve been part of.

Obtena.7952:

^^ Ha, that’s a new one I haven’t heard .. “You’re not really playing, you’re grinding”.

Fundamentally, I think the difference is that whatever it is, people have the choice to do something they like and get rewarded for it. If people are playing and choosing to not like it, that is 100% their own fault.

In order to be grinding you have to have some kind of goal in mind. While I have numerous long term goals in the back of my mind, that’s where they stay. When I’m playing I’m sort of like a skritt. Ooooo that looks fun. Shiny! I start doing one thing and by the end of an hour I’ve done ten other things, but not the thing I set out to do.

psizone.8437:

Ouch, I bought ESO just ahead of its re-release and I’m loving it.

It’s a mad cross between Skyrim and Morrowind and my nostalgia is going overboard with it and I’m thoroughly enjoying it.

That said, I’m enjoying it as an Elder Scrolls game first, rather than an MMO and Guild Wars is still my main game that I play daily for hours on end during my main gaming hours.

I don’t think it’s particularly fair to ridicule a game in another games main forum considering the people here (myself included) are Guild Wars 2 fans, it’s a little biassed and it wouldn’t be nice to turn fans of both franchises off from purchasing the game if they read this.

I’m an elder scrolls fan too, and desperately wanted to like that game. Hell there are people who come here and ridicule Guild Wars 2. What wouldn’t be fair would be going to ESO’s site and ridiculing it.

Just wait till you have a stack and sell them on the TP.

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

tfcgeneralkmk.9508:

Satenia.9025:

Vayne.8563:

snip

The game is out for approximately 2.5 years. Which means you average a legendary every half a year. While I do not doubt that you do indeed engage in the activities you just described, you might want to consider how much of your game time is truly spent on it and how much you are actually engaged in the carrot-chasing.

As far as I’m aware, fooling around hearts and climbing mountains does not magically shower you in wealth. If it indeed did, a forum reader or two might be interested to learn more – including myself.

not hearts per say but just running around higher level zones doing events can get you quite a good amount of money usually particularly ones in ORR or SW where you can get decent silk drops/turn ins

I play a lot. But that doesn’t mean I’m chasing carrots. You’re so bent on the carrot that’s what you focus on. My focus is on my guild and helping people. That’s what I focus on.

It’s true that often people need a fifth for a dungeon, or need help leveling in fractals and sometimes, often even, I’m the person helping. But I’m running that dungeon or that fractal to help a guildie. I do get rewards, because that game gives them to me, but my reward is spending time with friends in game.

I’ve run the Silverwastes with the guild, because I have fun spending time with my guild. I’m not really sure what you’re having trouble understanding here.

As I go along, I pick up stuff, I get gold, sometimes good drops. I did have a couple of VERY lucky drops along the way which really helped. One of them was a precusor. I sell a lot of stuff on the trading post. And I gather everything. You might consider that grinding, but I find it relaxing. Just running around gathering stuff at night while I can’t sleep, doing events, often in early zones.

For example I spent a lot of time in Diessa Plateau because I enjoy the zone. I like it. It’s fun for me even after a couple of years. And between iron and softwood there’s plenty of money to make just mining and gathering. If you consider that grind, well, I don’t.

In this thread you also said many of your guild-members did grind all the time.

So it seems you basically help them our grinding, only you don’t qualify it as grinding but helping out those guild-members? That makes it a little understandable. But trust me, if you avoid the grindy content because you dislike it, you will not make the gold by just playing to buy all those items.

So “Play the way you want” and earn the money along the way is just simply not how it works. In fact what I liked a lot was defending in WvW at some point I had to stop buying upgrades simply because I would run out of money. So that was not chancing items or whatever, just “playing the way I want” and that did not make me gold but it cost me gold. JP’s didn’t make me a lot of gold and so only guild-missions or the moment I did run with a group to take another keep did make me the money (And they while the group moved on to the next keep I stayed to build it up).

Now even when I did stop with buying those expensive upgrades the money I made was not close to enough to buy what I would like. (not to mention that still I would prefer the hunt).

Thats just the reality for most people. If you don’t like the grindy content (Like brainlessly running with some group doing the same thing over and over again) or doing dungeons every day then you will not make the money you need along the way.

Bad conclusion is bad. First of all, I don’t think I said many of my guildies grind, but surely some of them do. However, they don’t need help to grind. So if someone needs help with a dungeon and I help them, I’m not going to run that dungeon 12 times in a row.

And no one needs help running around the Silverwastes shovel train, or any train for that matter. If someone is grinding EoTM, they won’t be grinding it with me.

However people do need help sometimes with personal story chapters for which I get no reward at all, and I still help them.

No, I really am just playing. That’s all I’m doing. As much as you’d like to believe otherwise.

And you know, I tend to hang out with other guildies I play with regularly who don’t grind either. We just do what we feel like at a given time. There are more of us out there than you think.

I just told my wife to check her mail. I didn’t get one but she did. I couldn’t do it that day anyway, because I’ll be travelling.

Jerus.4350:

Vayne.8563:

Also, how many people do dungeons to make money and nothing else. They don’t care about dungeons or challenges. They care about quick loot? Because if you give those same players a non-dungeon way to make loot, if it’s more efficient, they’re there. By leaving dungeons one of the more profitable things in the game, Anet has skewed dungeon numbers to be higher than they would be.

While I don’t disagree that dungeon runners are not a large part of the population I disagree highly with this entire paragraph.

My response can raelly be summed up with one word… Silverwastes.

Chest farming is insane gold, you really need to be extremely fast in dungeons to equal the amount of gold you can get from chest farms. The effort it takes in dungeons is far and above the effort it takes to chest farm. The effort for reward scale is insanely skewed, and the overall rewards are still at best equal if you’re one of those speed run dungeon crews.

Doesn’t that one zone debunk your entire theory in that paragraph?

I think the reason many people opt to run dungeons instaed of chest farming is because of the entertainment value. While many call dungeons boring and what not, it’s still more fun to run that years old content than it is to run circles and open chests.

And that’s why I think dungeons can contribute to the game even if the people who thrive in them is small. It’s something to mix stuff up. Diversity is key in an MMO, people will get burned out on a singular activity so you want to give them something else to do in this game so they aren’t going to another game.

A dungeon should provide 2 things to a game. A new game mode like I said above promoting diversity of content. And it should also challenge players, while open world content can be made challenging, most challenges can be overcome with numbers, and that’s what we see in this game a lot. I commend ANet for their scaling system, it was a great attempt to solve that issue, but fact remains it simply didn’t work in most cases. And with the megaserver you can’t really even try many things with low numbers anymore. Instances provide a solution to that issue and why they are so well suited for the challenging content.

To end, I’d point out ANets focus on realy driving home that they are putting in challenging content. There’s obviously a desire for this. However, realistically, anything really challenging will likely be done maybe once for an achievement by most and then abandoned to a small portion of the population… just like dungeons. Is it “worth their time”? Well, YES, it is, but numerically you’d have to answer no, but providing that bar for people to find a way to get over is something that promotes deeper play and mastery of the game, it motivates people, and that’s a good thing. That’s why there should be challenges, and the paragraph above this is why there should be instances… and well… basically dungeons.

Zone doesn’t debunk the theory since the chest farm in the Silverwastes is a month old and dungeons have been around a while. There are people who don’t have a clue that the Silverwastes can give you money. A lot of people. I run into them all the time.

There are still people running around who think that four warriors and a mesmer are the ideal dungeon grouping.

More to the point, no one can say the dungeon running population hasn’t fallen off since the Silverwastes has become so profitable. I assume it has. I know people who used to run dungeons for money who now spend more time in the Silverwastes.

So unless you have evidence the dungeon running population hasn’t decreased, I’m not sure what your point is.

Customer service with any company is usually a mixed bag. That’s because there are lots of representatives and there are lots of tickets.

I know that if I do 100 things a day 2 or 3 of them are going to be wrong, because no one is perfect. That’s true of anyone.

So if you have a bad experience, CS is bad, and if you have good experience CS is good…however it’s doubtful anyone person has enough experience to really say. It’s like trying to figure out if the ecto salvage rate has changed. You’d need to know the results of thousands of tickets to really judge if it’s good or bad.

I have issues with games that charge a sub for months when the game is barely worth playing and then, after building up a lot of money, expect me to support them when they’re free to play.

It’s like saying, okay play me now after I’ve ripped off everyone else. It doesn’t sit well with me.

But I also wanted to like ESO can it felt far too generic for me. It also felt like I was playing a much older game. And I hate phasing because I really do want to quest with other people.

Okay Anet, drop all the shows you’ve been running to and doing, because this guy wants info and wants it now.

Do you have any idea of how much prep time is involved for each show? How much travel? How much work? Do you have a clue what is involved in what Anet is doing for the game at Pax South, Pax East and Rezt? I’m guessing not.

Within a short time we’ll be in beta, but asking for stuff now when so many employees were in England at a show all last weekend is just bad.

I mean you might have even noticed there was this big patch and it launched with some bugs. What is really different if you know something today, or in a week, if the game won’t be here for months?

Anet’s not hiding anything big, but they didn’t release much detail on stuff they’ve announced yet. Expecting more will probably end up in disappointment.

metaldude.4132:

Yargesh.4965:

Change meant things did not stay the same.
pong gave you two paddles and a ball.

Thus being the grandfather of nowaday gaming <3

There was no ping in pong.

Dye Seeds. That is all.

rotten.9753:

Vayne.8563:

A lotro dev talked about raids in Lotro when Lotro stopped supporting raiding.. He said only 10% of the population ever raided in Lotro, since the beginning. He also said that the same demographic accounts for 50% of the forum posts.

Raids aren’t even close to dungeons. There’s no organization needed to complete almost any dungeon in this game (except aetherpath, this in conjunction with rng rewards and its length is most likely the reason of its failure) and you only need 4 more people.

So why did Anet stop supporting them? What’s your theory?

zaw.6741:

and ill keep on saying that the older content gets, the lower interest in it…
would you rather watch 100th time a great 10/10 movie, or prefer 1st time some good 8/10 one?
if so few players were interested in this kind of content, why are there so many topics about dungs/fotm on the forum? ppl asking for tweaks/improvements/new content?

If people played the dungeons a lot originally and stopped, Anet would have known people were into dungeons. Obviously they would know how many people ever did dungeons. I would.

What makes you think that Anet hasn’t thought about that, considering how obvious it is. The Lotro raiding quote I gave said that 10% of the playerbase raided from the game’s launch, not recently. It is entirely possible that raiders and dungeon runners are a small part of the percentage.

In fact, there might be more people soloing than running dungeons.

Knighthonor.4061:

lighter.2708:

TheDaiBish.9735:

For example, ‘challenging group content’ could mean anything from Fractals and open world events to dungeons and raids

you over think too much, when anet say something, they mean it,

Manifesto say hi.

Remember when they said you won’t kill the same boss twice and that events don’t repeat? Anet has a way of saying something that really isn’t how things are.

They never said that. If that’s what you gout out of the manifesto, you weren’t paying attention. Several times now over the last couple of years the clarification of the manifesto was posted. And you guys keep saying stuff like this.

Anet added a new dungeon path and I’m pretty sure most players have never beaten it. I’m talking about the Aetherblade path of course. Annecdotally, I have a guild that now has over 200 people, with over 100 people logging in every week. Less than twenty people in the guild run dungeons at all, let alone regularly. We have four groups of people who do dungeons. I do dungeons but I wouldn’t care if I ever did one again. It’s not my thing.

The problem with liking and focusing on something is you assume that most people will feel the same. It’s not true. It’s never been true.

A lotro dev talked about raids in Lotro when Lotro stopped supporting raiding.. He said only 10% of the population ever raided in Lotro, since the beginning. He also said that the same demographic accounts for 50% of the forum posts.

Also, how many people do dungeons to make money and nothing else. They don’t care about dungeons or challenges. They care about quick loot? Because if you give those same players a non-dungeon way to make loot, if it’s more efficient, they’re there. By leaving dungeons one of the more profitable things in the game, Anet has skewed dungeon numbers to be higher than they would be.

tfcgeneralkmk.9508:

Satenia.9025:

Vayne.8563:

I return to those zones because I enjoy going there. I think they’re pretty, or fun, or I go to do an event I used to enjoy doing, or find an event I’ve never seen.

Every time I pass through zones, I find stuff I never noticed before, or noticed once but don’t remember. That’s why I go back to old zones.

And of course, I’m in those zones when we do guild missions, I’m in those zones for jumping puzzles. I’m in those zones because guildies are in those zones and I’m hanging out with them.

Your focus is the carrot, so you assume the only reason anyone would ever go to a zone is for the carrot. kittenumption is bad.

I often wander around just TO wander around because I enjoy wandering around. Sometimes I just like to try to climb mountains, not because there’s a chest up there, or because there’s a reward up there. Just to see if I can do it.

I don’t know why you think I return to zones for world bosses, since the world boss train feels a whole lot like grind to me and as already mentioned, I tend not to do that.

The game is out for approximately 2.5 years. Which means you average a legendary every half a year. While I do not doubt that you do indeed engage in the activities you just described, you might want to consider how much of your game time is truly spent on it and how much you are actually engaged in the carrot-chasing.

As far as I’m aware, fooling around hearts and climbing mountains does not magically shower you in wealth. If it indeed did, a forum reader or two might be interested to learn more – including myself.

not hearts per say but just running around higher level zones doing events can get you quite a good amount of money usually particularly ones in ORR or SW where you can get decent silk drops/turn ins

I play a lot. But that doesn’t mean I’m chasing carrots. You’re so bent on the carrot that’s what you focus on. My focus is on my guild and helping people. That’s what I focus on.

It’s true that often people need a fifth for a dungeon, or need help leveling in fractals and sometimes, often even, I’m the person helping. But I’m running that dungeon or that fractal to help a guildie. I do get rewards, because that game gives them to me, but my reward is spending time with friends in game.

I’ve run the Silverwastes with the guild, because I have fun spending time with my guild. I’m not really sure what you’re having trouble understanding here.

As I go along, I pick up stuff, I get gold, sometimes good drops. I did have a couple of VERY lucky drops along the way which really helped. One of them was a precusor. I sell a lot of stuff on the trading post. And I gather everything. You might consider that grinding, but I find it relaxing. Just running around gathering stuff at night while I can’t sleep, doing events, often in early zones.

For example I spent a lot of time in Diessa Plateau because I enjoy the zone. I like it. It’s fun for me even after a couple of years. And between iron and softwood there’s plenty of money to make just mining and gathering. If you consider that grind, well, I don’t.

I hope I never win this game. Because then I’m done with it. There’s always something for me to do, even if it’s just playing with the guild. I guess it did happen with Guild Wars 1, but that was only after a couple of years of no updates. And I still went back to do the Winds of Change.

MrRuin.9740:

Vayne.8563:

snip

So maybe it’s not brainwashing in a literal sense, but it is a form of programming. There’s an old saying, if all you have is a hammer everything looks like a nail. There are many times I’ve seen people come to this game from other games and walk away because this game doesn’t have mounts, or raids, or end game as they’ve learned to define it.

But I’ve also seen some of those same people come back and “get it” the second time they’ve come. It’s not insulting to people or it shouldn’t be, to point out that every MMORPG, at least every western one, for the last five years has tried to emulate WoW. That’s pretty much common knowledge. They’re not called WoW clones for nothing.

If you don’t think that sort of constant repetition has an effect on how people perceive things, I don’t really know what to say. Where you see condescending, I’m just using words which you can take at face value or you can read into it. We’re all programmed by experience.

Some people have made up their mind about me long ago and anything I say will go through that veil of thinking one way. It’s a bit like programming. Like people who claim I only say positive things. It’s not true. You guys really have no clue about me.

But a lot of what I say is just balanced. If people are calling this the worst page in the history of mankind, I think a bit of balance is justified. If you don’t like it, don’t reply. If you do reply, I’m going to answer you.

I’ve seen you on both sides of the fence, when Anet has done something that was not well received. I never said you hadn’t. You are usually on the frontlines of defense, which in itself is not a bad thing. Some people on the other side who attack everything Anet does do take things to the extreme sometimes and the forums should not be a wholly negative place.

However….

Vayne.8563:

If all you want is raids and gear grind, yes, you should just quit. That’s because you’ve bought into the rhetoric of an industry that has brainwashed people to make everything about upgrading stats.

If you just want a raid with gear, there are lots of choices out there for you. But if you can overcome that mindset, there’s a lot of choices here for you too.

This kind of talk voids your arguments in defense of GW2, IMO. While this is trying to speak positive of GW2, the attitude is still overly negative because someone simply doesn’t “get it”.
It’s one thing to tell someone they’ve come to the wrong game and that there’s other choices. With the sea of MMO’s out there, it’s a lot easier to find one that suits your preferences than hope one changes to fit them. But, its entirely another to insult them by telling them they’ve bought into a brain washing industry and must overcome a certain mindset to enjoy GW2.
Talk about blanket terms, then lump everyone that may actually like raids and min/max stat creeps for a slight edge in other MMO’s as being a brainwashed sheep. Because believe it or not, some people do like it. Some people love the stat crawls and numbers game of having slightly higher stats. Not because they’ve bought into anything, but because they actually prefer it.
Oh, I know you can say to read deeper and between the lines, but most ways you slice it, talking to people like that is insulting.

What I said here is true. People have bought into that. It’s an opinion. It voids nothing. It’s not even disrepectful to say that someone bought into it. People buy into all sorts of things. You have an opinion and you’re entitled to it, but it doesn’t void my opinion.

My opinion is the popularity of WoW so damaged MMO space that MMOs may never recover. That’s just an opinion, but it’s mine. I believe, really believe, WoW did more to turn people away from MMOs than it did to sell them to the public. Sure there were 12.4 million WoW subscriptions at one point, but that’s only a small percentage of gamers over all. And for each person who loves WoW, I’m convinced another was driven away from MMOs because of it and games that copied it. I believe people who come to any other game and expect WoW"s features have bought into the rhetoric.

Not sure why you think that’s condescending. It’s my opinion and I’m entitled to it. Trying to make it something it’s not invalidates pretty much everything you’ve said.

Satenia.9025:

Vayne.8563:

I did what I want when I wanted. I never ran a dungeon to get a legendary. I ran dungeons to help guildies and incidentally got the tokens I needed for a legendary. I jump into PvP or WvW when I feel like it, not for a specific reward. The reward was incidental to me.

Once I had enough of the rewards I got incidentally I had enough to get a legendary. I had enough badges of honor, even though I wasn’t doing anything for badges of honor.

Simplest example is map completion. I don’t complete maps because I want world complete. I simply do stuff that happens to be around as I’m running past it. It’s there, it’s XP and it requires no effort. I might go into a zone 20 times and not complete it, and suddenly, I look up and I need like a vista and a couple of points of interest.

Grind implies intention. I very rarely do anything for the reward it gives me, unless you’re counting fun or helping a guildie as a reward.

To me, this sounds like the common delusion about what the carrot dangling in front of your face is all about.

Let’s look at your simple example of world completion: Why would you repeatedly return to the same zone on the same character over an extended amount of time? Encounters such as world bosses which encourage such behaviour are limited to certain spots. You don’t magically complete a heart on the other side of the map because of that. Just like you don’t magically complete a large majority of the hearts by “running past them”. As a matter of fact, you seek them out on purpose, you stop, you engage in that activity in a repetitive manner and then move on. You are as such guided by rewards, even if you keep telling yourself that this is “all fun”.

This remains the same for all kind of content: You may tell yourself that you have fun doing that dungeon for the 101th time because you’re helping out a guildie this time, but in truth the game-related rewards attached to the activity influence your decision-making and willingness to be helpful.

Your intention is there, it may not be as bluntly as “I want that legendary now”, but it still affects what you do. Do you stick around and keep doing hearts-related activities once the heart itself is completed because they are so much fun? Do you keep running the same dungeon paths or world bosses past the extra daily reward because they are so much fun? The carrot usually takes you elsewhere…

I return to those zones because I enjoy going there. I think they’re pretty, or fun, or I go to do an event I used to enjoy doing, or find an event I’ve never seen.

Every time I pass through zones, I find stuff I never noticed before, or noticed once but don’t remember. That’s why I go back to old zones.

And of course, I’m in those zones when we do guild missions, I’m in those zones for jumping puzzles. I’m in those zones because guildies are in those zones and I’m hanging out with them.

Your focus is the carrot, so you assume the only reason anyone would ever go to a zone is for the carrot. kittenumption is bad.

I often wander around just TO wander around because I enjoy wandering around. Sometimes I just like to try to climb mountains, not because there’s a chest up there, or because there’s a reward up there. Just to see if I can do it.

I don’t know why you think I return to zones for world bosses, since the world boss train feels a whole lot like grind to me and as already mentioned, I tend not to do that.

Lifestealer.4910:

I like how no matter how awful the patches are, there will always be sympathizers trying to defend Arenanet. This patch broke so many things which is quite laughable and sad really. Even Blizzard has higher standard than this kitten.

I like how no matter how unreasonable someone’s expectations are, they still try to justify them by using hyperbole.

You used the word laughable and sad. I agree completely.

Shadowmoon.7986:

Clearly this last update ran into just push it out and patch it later syndrome. I suspect this was so they can remain on their gem store schedule (noticed how 2 weeks worth of item were push out in 2 days). This really show where Anets priority are, they are not here to make a good stable game, they are here to suck money out of the gemstore.
HoT will be the same, the starting areas will be polished, the end game buggy as hell, but don’t worry the gem store will be 100% tested and working.

I think it had more to do with what competitors are doing than what gem stores are doing. Are you suggesting they can’t update the gemstore without making a whole patch?

/conspiracy theory

Satenia.9025:

Well, after a couple of days, my GW1 legacy is still in ruins, I’m hearing even stranger voices than normal and the pet is refusing to behave. To me, these things matter because I cannot really avoid them. If an activity doesn’t work, I can do another… but the current bugs affecting me are universal.

Sure, I’m confident that everything will be resolved in time, but what I’m not so confident about anymore is the quality of the updates. Hopefully, this turns out to be some kind of wake-up call though.

Vayne.8563:

I’m not congratulating them for fixing what they broke. I’m offering some balance on a forum that has over-reacted for ages, using hyperbole like a sword. It’s a silly think for someone to say this is the worst patch in the history of mankind, so pointing out that much of what was wrong is fixed in two days would seem warranted.

It’s called being reasonable.

Since this is only a balancing act, shouldn’t your thread be removed as well then? :P

One thread may have been removed, but the amount of vitriol in general is still way out of proportion. Or do you think this forum is mostly a positive happy place?

Order weapons aren’t even max weapons, so I’m not sure what you’re worried about.

I actually agree with Many. I don’t see anything wrong with this guy’s post. He is aggrieved, wrongly or rightly, by the number of bugs in the patch. He’s made a decision to take a break. Fair enough.

I’m not sure what posting it here adds to the conversation, but it’s certainly his right to post it.

creepa.7829:

so stats do not matter ? because i was told warrior wants power

It may be true that a warrior want’s power. That can matter. But the order you chose has nothing to do with power. You won’t get any more power choosing vigil over choosing order of whispers. You get the same power either way.

Orders affect your story, not your stats.

Satenia.9025:

Olvendred.3027:

You’re confusing “large/time-consuming task” with “grind.” Simply because it takes a long time to get all the requirements for something, doesn’t mean that doing so is a grind… unless you play in a grindy manner.

No I don’t. If you have to complete something 500 times, if you do it 500 times in 1 day or once a day over 500 days is not relevant. You still did a repetition. All examples I listed qualify as such.

I did what I want when I wanted. I never ran a dungeon to get a legendary. I ran dungeons to help guildies and incidentally got the tokens I needed for a legendary. I jump into PvP or WvW when I feel like it, not for a specific reward. The reward was incidental to me.

Once I had enough of the rewards I got incidentally I had enough to get a legendary. I had enough badges of honor, even though I wasn’t doing anything for badges of honor.

Simplest example is map completion. I don’t complete maps because I want world complete. I simply do stuff that happens to be around as I’m running past it. It’s there, it’s XP and it requires no effort. I might go into a zone 20 times and not complete it, and suddenly, I look up and I need like a vista and a couple of points of interest.

Grind implies intention. I very rarely do anything for the reward it gives me, unless you’re counting fun or helping a guildie as a reward.

serenke.4806:

Wait a second. Now we are congratulating them for fixing quickly what they broke?
It took them mere days to fix these bugs yet there are hundreds of reported bugs that they just cannot fix because of lack of manpower? They have a totally inept (or non-existing) QA team so we get to test run every patch. That seems to be their m.o.

Patching these bugs is the very least we can expect.
Yeah i know everyone is on the “you are entitled if you expect no bugs” train lately. But let me ask, how can they delay a patch by almost a week claiming it needs more testing and then release a trainwreck like this? The HoM bug, the voices from across the map, and i don’t know how many more. Most of these would never pass a QA test because if a tester is in a zone for a few minutes, they WILL hear the random voices unless the test never took place.

But let’s sit in a circle, hold hands, sing kumbaya and praise ANet for trying to salvage what’s left of their reputation.

I have never complained about these things before because of the same old reasons: no software is bug free, no patch is bug free, they cannot test it on every PC, the sunflare activity was way too strong during patching, Colin’s dog ate the balance team’s proposal so they had to improvise… etc.

But if you start patting them on then back for releasing a buggy pile of code and then hotfixing, then all i can think of is the stockholm syndrome.

I’m not congratulating them for fixing what they broke. I’m offering some balance on a forum that has over-reacted for ages, using hyperbole like a sword. It’s a silly think for someone to say this is the worst patch in the history of mankind, so pointing out that much of what was wrong is fixed in two days would seem warranted.

It’s called being reasonable.

MrRuin.9740:

Vayne.8563:

Ark.9586:

Vayne.8563:

kindofabuzz.9357:

King Noob IV.3560:

why the hell do I see ppl keeping crying about anet this company kittening rocks

Just because you didn’t have any bugs doesn’t mean others didn’t.

It doesn’t matter whether I have bugs or I don’t have bugs. What matters is that bugs happen and bugs get fixed. That’s what matters.

And sometimes bugs inconvenience us for days on end. That happens too.

It’s hardly unique and hardly the end of the world. Have a little balance.

There are still tons of bugs that have been around since launch, reported hundreds of times, and with no response from Anet.

Glorifying them is no better than shaming them imo.

I’d like to see where you’ve seen me “glorifying Anet”. I’d like a specific example, please. Anywhere where I’ve said this is the best game ever, or even anything close.

There’s a huge difference between responding to posts that vilify, and putting someone on a pedestal.

There was a thread on this forum saying that this was the worst patch in the history of mankind. Aside from that being a totally silly thing to say, it’s more or less what I’m responding to.

I’d love to see this glorification you’re talking about. I’m recommending some common sense and balance.

If common sense and balance is going to come into play, can you balance the love of Anet with the condescension of other people? There are other threads where you talk down to people and outright call them closed minded, brainwashed and allude to their stupidity because they don’t fully embrace Anets vision of an MMO endgame.
Its basically how you got the reputation you have, because its one thing to defend a brand name or to praise a dev team for fixes (which they probably don’t hear enough when its deserved, I’ll give you that), but its entirely another to have it on such a pedestal that you insult others intelligence for not feeling the same way.

The reputation I have is with some people and I have a lot of people who like what I have to say as well. The problem is one person sees talking down and another person doesn’t. I don’t usually talk down to anyone and if that’s what you’re getting from what I’m saying, you’re most likely misintpreting it. Take the whole brainwashing thing.

Human beings form expectations based on habits. We all do. Years and years of the same thing over and over again, create an expectation in a large percentage of people. This is something that has been shown over and over again and pretty much any psychologist will back it up.

So maybe it’s not brainwashing in a literal sense, but it is a form of programming. There’s an old saying, if all you have is a hammer everything looks like a nail. There are many times I’ve seen people come to this game from other games and walk away because this game doesn’t have mounts, or raids, or end game as they’ve learned to define it.

But I’ve also seen some of those same people come back and “get it” the second time they’ve come. It’s not insulting to people or it shouldn’t be, to point out that every MMORPG, at least every western one, for the last five years has tried to emulate WoW. That’s pretty much common knowledge. They’re not called WoW clones for nothing.

If you don’t think that sort of constant repetition has an effect on how people perceive things, I don’t really know what to say. Where you see condescending, I’m just using words which you can take at face value or you can read into it. We’re all programmed by experience.

Some people have made up their mind about me long ago and anything I say will go through that veil of thinking one way. It’s a bit like programming. Like people who claim I only say positive things. It’s not true. You guys really have no clue about me.

But a lot of what I say is just balanced. If people are calling this the worst page in the history of mankind, I think a bit of balance is justified. If you don’t like it, don’t reply. If you do reply, I’m going to answer you.

phys.7689:

Olvendred.3027:

phys.7689:

Vayne.8563:

phys.7689:

Styxx.1564:

Humans are quick to forget the amazing time they spend, and always whine about the few moments where things don’t go their way. It’s universal.

Most whiners have probably over 1000h of playtime, but that’s irrelevant.
Bugs now! Anet sucks!

its more like how did they not see this bug, we noticed it within 10 seconds.
they need a PTR, it would benefit their style and reduce predictable bugs on live greatly.

As I’ve said before, Rift had a PTR and plenty of bugs got through and every single patch required multiple down times to correct those bugs, PTR and all.

The problem is test servers are never identical to the main server and never end up with the same traffic.

not all bugs are related to traffic. messing up post processing effects, not related to traffic, skill/traits not working as advertised, not related to traffic, achievement errors, not related to traffic.

I have participated in a ptr, and if you saw the releases before PTR, you would realize how useful the ptr was So many bugs/bad implementations/errors never reach the users on the main server, with just a few dedicated ptr people.

Rift may have been bad it, but most likely the amount of issues before the ptr people got to it, was huge as compared to what you got

to be clear PTR doesnt eliminate all bugs, it reduces bugs. Thats all any quality control in any system can do. perfection is not the goal, less bugs/errors/bad implementations is the goal.

A PTR is a method of quality assurance, but by no means the only one. Anet uses a different method, and each methods has its own pros and cons. To say that a PTR is better, simply because it detects bugs, is misleading, because a patch would be released to the PTR at a considerably earlier stage of development, than a patch going into the live game from Anet. Participants in a PTR get to see bugs and resolve them, because that’s what they’re there for.

the methods they are using are passing by too many obvious bugs. If that wasnt the case, i might not suggest it. But if these bugs are hard to find with automation, or whatever other techniques they are using, then maybe they need to add a ptr to the quality control.

Ptr has the added advantage of being a testing ground for ideas as well. They refined some implementations greatly based on feedback on the ptr i participated in.

I don’t think the method they’re using is at fault here. I think it’s the schedule they’re using. And since fans are so demanding of new stuff, it’s a tough balance. There really is pressure to get stuff out.

DanielIsAwesome.6039:

weskay.9217:

The moniker “season three” hasn’t been confirmed. What has been confirmed though is that there will not be any new story content if you do not purchase the Heart of Thorns expansion. So should there be a season three of the Living Story, it will continue in the Heart of Thorns expansion which Randulf briefly mentioned.

Do you have a source for that, Weskay?

It was said by Colin Johansen during an interview and it makes sense. Heart of Thorns takes up the story where the Living Story Season 2 ended. How would it make sense to have a season 3 that didn’t require Hot?

phys.7689:

Vayne.8563:

phys.7689:

Styxx.1564:

Humans are quick to forget the amazing time they spend, and always whine about the few moments where things don’t go their way. It’s universal.

Most whiners have probably over 1000h of playtime, but that’s irrelevant.
Bugs now! Anet sucks!

its more like how did they not see this bug, we noticed it within 10 seconds.
they need a PTR, it would benefit their style and reduce predictable bugs on live greatly.

As I’ve said before, Rift had a PTR and plenty of bugs got through and every single patch required multiple down times to correct those bugs, PTR and all.

The problem is test servers are never identical to the main server and never end up with the same traffic.

not all bugs are related to traffic. messing up post processing effects, not related to traffic, skill/traits not working as advertised, not related to traffic, achievement errors, not related to traffic.

I have participated in a ptr, and if you saw the releases before PTR, you would realize how useful the ptr was So many bugs/bad implementations/errors never reach the users on the main server, with just a few dedicated ptr people.

Rift may have been bad it, but most likely the amount of issues before the ptr people got to it, was huge as compared to what you got

to be clear PTR doesnt eliminate all bugs, it reduces bugs. Thats all any quality control in any system can do. perfection is not the goal, less bugs/errors/bad implementations is the goal.

You can not use a blanket approach to all situations and all companies though. I don’t believe the PTR was helpful to Rift and I think in Guild Wars 2 it would be even worse. There are so many things in Guild Wars 2 that require a lot of people just to see if they work.

Take the Teq bug that happened. On a test server it’s unlikely enough people could have pushed the event far enough for it to have bugged. More importantly there are other issues with builds related to economy.

And the publishing schedule here is pretty intense as well. How much time do you think there’d be for a test server to even test it.

You might argue updates come out too fast, and you know, I’d agree but there are a whole bunch of people that go a month without an update and they’re climbing the walls. You see it here all the time.

This game is unlike others I’ve played, possibly because Anet set that ridiculous 2 week tempo during season 1 of the living story. Maybe if they wouldn’t have done that things would be different now, but many in this game seem unable to wait even for the amount of time between updates now.

What you’re proposing increases the length of time between updates.

I’m not thinking that would work well in this situation. I remember Rift coming out with a PvP change that was so bad, it pretty much killed PvP there and four days later they had to revert the change completely, and issue an apology…and it was on the PTS.

I get that you believe it would help. Maybe it some games it would. In my opinion, here it would just muddy the waters, adding another layer of complexity that would do more harm than good.

phys.7689:

Styxx.1564:

Humans are quick to forget the amazing time they spend, and always whine about the few moments where things don’t go their way. It’s universal.

Most whiners have probably over 1000h of playtime, but that’s irrelevant.
Bugs now! Anet sucks!

its more like how did they not see this bug, we noticed it within 10 seconds.
they need a PTR, it would benefit their style and reduce predictable bugs on live greatly.

As I’ve said before, Rift had a PTR and plenty of bugs got through and every single patch required multiple down times to correct those bugs, PTR and all.

The problem is test servers are never identical to the main server and never end up with the same traffic.

ZeftheWicked.3076:

Perhaps you need to reevaluate what expansion is about. If you think about adding very little, even if that little is of high quality, then you’re doing it wrong.

And Courtyard is screaming for addition of at least one or better yet two good deathmatch maps.

I don’t need to reevaluate anything since I’m not the one with a problem. If you think it’s not enough, what do you think will happen.

It’s not like another PvP map is going to magically appear in time for launch.

ZeftheWicked.3076:

How can I not call it a barren wasteland in terms of HoT content for spvp?
Right now spvp has 7 maps. HoT brings us…one. Sure it may be a new type of map, but that doesn’t change the fact is a one single, lonely map!
A tiny map at that, since it’s for spvp.

Compare that to new WvW map which is huge and easily has the same amount of content, if not more then the alpine borderlands had. Now that’s what i call an expansion worthy upgrade.

So if I look at it from birds view:

1 WvW – rougly same amount of new as we had of old.
2. spvp – 20% new compared to old and i’m being generous here (1/7 is not 20%, but it’s a new game mode, so i added few % for fairness).
3. PvE – too little info to tell.

That’s my main reason for my request for reviewers to tackle each game mode separately in their final grade for the expansion.

First of all, it’s not a tiny map and it isn’t just a map, it’s a whole new format, which is more than just a tiny map. And there are many PvP games with relatively few maps that do quite well if the map is good enough.

But this map is more. This map is a throw back to a different style of gaming that will be played differently.

There are no other specifics about PvP because they’ve only gone into main features, but you can expect balance, the specializations and the new profession will likely completely rewrite the PvP meta, and that’s something most actual PvPers are probably looking forward to. Shaking up the meta.

Along with a new control effect and new conditions.

Perhaps you need to reevaluate what PvP is. If you think it’s only about new maps you’re doing it wrong.

These episodes are not being removed. This is permanent content. You can only play them at level 80 no matter when you buy them.

Whether they’re worth playing or not depends on the player. I enjoy story in general and while this isn’t Shakespeare it gives me a context for what I’m doing and what’s going on generally. I like that.

I don’t think it’s worth it for the rewards unless you happen to be an achievement point hunter.

Pretty much what it costs in WoW, and that game also has a monthly subscription, and around what it costs in most of the games I’ve played.

I think the idea is to inhibit server hopping for WvW purposes.

Knighthonor.4061:

*Raid Dungeons
*Ground Mounts
*Trinity in PvP
*Arial Combat
*WvW gets EOTM features and new features
*EOTM cycles the current map as well as the EB map.
*New Mobile Siege weapons
*Weapon Size slider to make weapons larger for bigger races, mainly 1 handers.

Prepare to be dissatisfied. Good thing the OP asked for little things. lol

For myself, I’d like to see out of the way stuff that isn’t so easy to find, like the basilisk cave in Gendarran Fields. There’s a chest there, but most people have never seen it. It’s not something you’d really get to unless you were trying or someone showed it to you.