Guild Wars 2

MikaHR.1978:

Daywolf.2630:

Vayne.8563:

You say the instances in Guild Wars 1 exist before you enter them, but I’m thinking those instances are created for you, when you enter them.

Yes that’s correct. If initiated by a script (as is the usual way) that script is attached to a trigger, the player interacts with that trigger (e.g. an NPC) which starts an instance and puts the player into that instance. The instance was not active before, not persistent, but was created and filled with mobs and whatnot when the player triggered the instance to begin. Usually such instances carry an ID, such a instance 0, or instance 1, or 2, or 88, sometimes numerical from 0 to how ever many are allowable to be running at the same time. Such as in some server side game codes I’ve seen limited to 256 instances of a single type of zone. Like zone ID A33 – instance #24 etc.

So yes, they don’t exist until the player creates it. Then when a player starts the instance, everything begins from it’s starting place. Like if a monster was pathed to circle the zone endlessly, in a persistent zone it would always be circling the zone and you would never know where it exactly was when you entered that persistent zone. But in an instanced zone, as soon as you enter the zone, that monster is in it’s spawn location, because the zone started when the player entered, and will end when they leave. I’m not a big fan of instances, but if used sparingly, they can add variety to an mmo.

MikaHR.1978:

Wrong, publishers/developers now start to run away for being named MMO, so you have MMOs that are called “online persistant shooters” and such

MMOs as a genre are losing players. WoW lost 5 million players in short time. Did you see other MMOs grow by 5 million? Nope. And why? Because genre is going downhill and ANet certanly joined the band by their 180 turnaround.

Um no, there have been quite a few games passed off as mmo’s in recent years when they clearly were not. Even before mmo’s became popular, there was a huge debate over some mmo’s that were clearly not mmo’s.

As for the genre failing or whatnot, I’ve been playing mmo’s and working on such indie projects since loong before WoW came around. Those were good times, and quite happy mmo’s were below the radar much like MUD gaming. If all WoW players, those that mostly started and ended with WoW, left the genre to never come back, and WoW closed it’s doors, the genre would be better off, though the damage already done. It’s not the genre failing, just WoW, though I’m sure it will drag down it’s remaining clones with it. Riddance. But Blizzard will do something, they have been around even before some of their loyal playerbase were even born.

Not really. WoW brought many people to MMOs. Its MMO developers that failed to further popularize and evolve/revolve games so pretty much all AAA tiles are different skin of the same game. Every AAA MMO since WoW sold more and more….and lost more and more people,. And now WoW lost almost half of their players and where are they? Surely not playing MMOs, 7-8 million (over various MMOs) players would be quite noticable if they actually went to other MMOs.

GW2 had some fresh ideas, but 2 months after launch they decided they want to be more like WoW. I mean, didnt they get the memo or sumtin?

Your assumptions are baseless. For one thing, you say that WoW has lost half their player base…sure….it’s an 8 year old game. How many 8 year old games haven’t lost their player base? By percentage please.

I bet you less than 1% of 8 year old games have retained more than half their player base. A hell of a lot less than 1%. For every hundred games that have come out 8 years ago., how many have half their player base left? How many people are still playing other games that came out around the time of WoW. Even Guild Wars 1 has lost far more than half it’s player base.

So saying that WoW has lost half it’s player base over that time sounds more like a success story than a problem.

Any game that retains half it’s player base for 8 years is doing extremely well.

haviz.1340:

eisberg.2379:

ok, and? Has a persistent world, and has had one since day 1.

Gw1 had persistent great temple of balthazar.

In which you couldn’t use skills or fight, or play. It was a lobby. Not quite the same thing. All lobby games have lobbies, but you’re not playing the game in them. You’re gathering your group in them.

Skyline.3480:

Vayne.8563:

Anet saw people ignoring events, and they saw people complaining about the personal story and they came up with something else.

Instead of actually fixing those aspects they decided to take the cowards way out.

Funny comment. Fixing WHAT? Redoing the entire personal story after it’s unsuccessful? Rehiring all the voice actors? Making people wait 2 years? Seriously?

It’s all so easy when you’re not doing the work. How would you suggest they fix it? For one thing they’d have to change how people play and that can’t be done so easily.

Maybe they took the smart way out which is also the only way that would have worked. You can say it’s the easy way all you want. Changing direction and kitten ing off your core user base is never the easy way out for a business. It’s an act of desperation.

Skyline.3480:

Mike O’brien said:If you love MMO’s, you’ll want to check out Guild Wars 2, and if you hate MMO’s you’ll really want to check out Guild Wars 2.

Pardon me Mr O’brien, but I think what you meant to say was:

If you love MMO’s you’ll really want to check out GW2, and if you hate MMO’s you’ll really really want to stay the hell as far away from GW2 as possible.

I hate MMOs and like Guild Wars 2, so your statement is incorrect.

Pariah.8506:

Red Falcon.8257:

The original game launched in August was pretty much what was advertised,

Persistent world – nope

fully branching personalized storyline – nope

event system to get people playing together – nope, zerging isn’t playing together, it’s people doing their own thing who just happened to have the same target

‘When you look at the art in our game, you say “Wow that’s visually stunning, I’ve never seen anything like that before.” And then when you play the combat in our game, you say “Wow that’s incredible, I’ve never seen anything like that.
In most games you go out, and you have really fun tasks occasionally to do. And the rest of the game is this boring grind to get to the fun stuff. I swung a sword, I swung a sword again.’ – This contradicts itself really seeing how the game turned out
In the game world these horrible centaurs are standing around in a field and you get a quest step that says “Go kill ten centaurs”. We don’t think that’s OK. – Apparently, you do.

We don’t want to make the same MMO that everyone else is building – Haha, oh wow
in Guild Wars 2, it’s your world, it’s your story, you affect things around you in a very permanent way. ’ – It feel like I’m taking crazy pills reading this

You’re meeting new people, whom you will then see again. You’re rescuing a village that will stay rescued, then remember you – Unless I turn my back and the event comes rolling around again within 10 seconds. Dear fishermen of Viathan Lake, I think you should just relocate..

Ad I only pulled out the easy ones.

1. The world is persistent. How can you claim it’s not. That’s the most ridiculous thing said on these forums in a long time. Persistent means it persists, even if no players are on the map…which is the case. The world is persistent.

2. So what makes a storyline FULLY branching or not FULLY branching? Infinite choices? Did you really expect that. It’s a storyline that branches…and it branches quite a lot. I’m not sure why you think it doesn’t live up to that. Maybe you’re reading something into the idea besides that’s being said?

3. Zerging isn’t playing together? I don’t know. I’m playing with other people, even in a zerg. HOWEVER< some of us are in guilds and play with each other all the time doing events. Do you rez people when down in a zerg? Lots of people do. Maybe you don’t knwo what playing together means.

In fact, I’m not sure you’ve played this game at all.

runeblade.7514:

Colin Johanson: " We just want players to grind in Guild Wars 2. Everyone enjoys that. Everyone finds it fun."

Didn’t you read the manifesto? It clearly says that!

Didn’t you read the WHOLE manifesto? Because we have a term for taking a line out of a paragraph and trying to define it. It’s called taking something “out of context”. This is most often done by lawyers and politicians to change the definition of something said.

What Colin was saying was by no means clear, but it almost certainly doesn’t refer to gear grind. Because to most older MMO players, grinding meant one thing…grinding to level by killing mobs.

Many of the older MMOs had no way to level, because you’d run out of quests and you’d have to endlessly grind mobs to level. Everything else was farming. Gear grind wasn’t even talked about.

If you look at the rest of the paragraph, he’s talking about “fun things to do”. He’s talking about how in most games you have this “boring grind” to get to the fun stuff. There’s no actual mention of gear in the paragraph. It ends with the words “we want to change the way people view COMBAT”.

I understood what he meant the first time I saw it. Gear grind never entered my mind at all. You took it as gear grind, and that’s fine, but don’t take stuff out of context to prove a point.

Because you don’t really know that that’s how he meant it. It’s certainly not how I interpreted it.

And things said later when he talked about it, he would take about leveling up to get to raiding, which is why they put the Shadow Behemoth and big encounters like that in early zones. So you could have fun things to do without the grind of leveling.

I agree. I think this is a bad way to do business.

I agree and disagree. I love the idea in concept but there are a couple of flaws in this process.

First, if someone is on the gun and AFK you’re sunk, which means a lot of wasted time. And in a lot of cases, you’re completely dependent on strangers.

It’s a great feeling though when you win.

cesmode.4257:

I guess, by their logic, bigger is better. The more the merrier. Quantity over quality.

You keep repeating the words quantity over quality. And I’ll keep calling you on it. There are some quality things here we’ve NEVER seen in an MMO before, including overflow servers so you don’t wait in queues. That’s quality, not quantity.

You don’t like the content so it’s not quality content. I can’t wait till you move to the next MMO at launch and find out how green the grass is.

generalraccoon.3857:

Vayne.8563:

Let’s take a look at Anet. They have two games. One of them is 8 years old and probably not a big cash cow. They have all their resources invested in this one high cost project. Five years of work, countless dollars, and this is their shot.

I don’t really see how your story can compare to this.

This isn’t selling out for a dollar. This is making a change for the betterment of your business and again…we don’t even know if the game would have been more successful if it went the other way. It could be dead by now, with half the staff laid off (which has clearly not happened).

Hi. I’m sorry to barge in the middle of this but I find myself asking a few things while reading these posts ( i do read em quite a bit but usually dont care to partake in it ) and was hoping for further clarification on this.

1. Did GW1 really didn’t make enough money? I was under the impression it did rather well. I played and enjoyed the Beta, but since i wasnt yet employed at the time, didnt buy the game, and wasnt deeply into MMOs)

2. And if so, is it true Anet might ..like… totally lose it, if they don’t get enough from GW2? (though I do read it sold quite well, Im hoping to know how else it can be in such dire straits?). Or is this speculative?

Thank you.

Guild Wars 1 definitely did well. But it didn’t do well in the sense of a game like WoW…it did well in the sense of a game that wasn’t WoW. They sold 7 million copies over 8 years. It’s pretty kitten good. But it’s also more niche. It didn’t reach or hold as many people over the course of time. It certainly had a following though. Those are the people who are the most hurt over the change in this games direction.

However, the staff of Guild Wars 1 was 50 and the staff of Guild Wars 2 is 300. It’s a much bigger staff and a much more ambitious project. The money Guild Wars 1 made wouldn’t come close to supporting what Anet wants to do with Guild Wars 2. So they have to appeal to a wider variety of players…become less niche OR appeal to many niches.

The problem is, Anet has no other games besides Guild Wars 1 and Guild Wars 2…and Guild Wars 1 is no longer being updated and it is no longer pulling in money for them. They’ve put all their eggs into this basket. They paid a dev team for five years to make this game, they moved to bigger headquarters, they’re STILL hiring more staff.

So yeah. This is make or break for Anet.

Buttercup.5871:

Ya’all missed the point of this update. It’s all green-ish.

If you want to show off your new special goodies from TA or Tequatl, you’ll surely want them to match the color of your armor. Mmmmm.

What a coincidence! You can now buy those in the gemstore! You’ll receive a[n unspecified]* chance to receive 1 of the 6 new green dyes from a loot table containing 25 dyes!

• PSA: the fact that the loot table contains 25 dyes, of which 6 are “special”, does not mean your chance is 6 in 25 to receive a special dye. It only means the loot table contains 25 dyes. It could well be that one of the six “special dyes” is set to drop 25% of the time, whereas the other five “special dyes” are set to drop 2% of the time.

Right because other than those special shades, I have no green dyes at all. In fact, green dyes are so hard to get, I might mortgage my house to get more green dyes.

/conspiracy theory

MikaHR.1978:

League of Legends
Counter-Strike Online

Yup, its not only MMOs they measure, as i suspected.

Yes, we are to believe 5 million just from WoW, but pretty much ALL AAA MMOs lost players, moved to some obsure F2P MMOs

oh wait, no they didnt, they moved to different GENRE

And you know this HOW?

Daywolf.2630:

Vayne.8563:

I don’t see anything unreasonable about that.

Just about ‘convenience’ to make your argument set it’s own bar. lol now it doesn’t count because it is a sandbox mmo as opposed to a themepark mmo. uh-huh…
wiggle-wiggle-wiggle-wiggle-wiggle

I don’t think you actually know much about the game you are talking about, sorry, not convinced there, and what your friends have said to you was probably rather vague if they even hardly played the game. Even the understanding of how a sandbox operates in general. It’s certainly far from all being player created content. Maybe you are thinking Second Life? I don’t see how it negates anything, and it certainly does not.

Speaking for myself, I have just one account (I play more than one mmo), and I know that “many” do not have multi accounts. That is mostly among nullsec sovereignty alliances, and then it’s not even a requirement. More so among those that fly either capital ships or mining platforms – but when you are in such an alliance, you can always get escorts and not required to do it all yourself. Even those ships are not really meant to be privately owned, but owned on the corporate level, so operations are not usually solo players using mufti-accounts. Shoot, I had more accounts in UO than I ever did in EVE. Even in some cases the escorts are often more corporate owned, such as scorpions used for transport purposes. So no, it’s far from “most” having 2 accounts or three accounts or whatnot. It’s just a normal mmo like any other. Doesn’t nullify my points made.

I’m trying to let you off the hook easy by saying it’s a good game,. but niche.

The entire number of people playin Eve right now at it’s maximum, after all these years, is under a sixth of the people who bought Guild Wars 2 accounts.

Guild Wars 2 peak concurrency was far more than double Eve’s peak concurrency. So if Eve is a success story, what does that make Guild Wars 2?

The truth is, we won’t know until Guild Wars 2 is four or five years old. If it’s still around and doing business, I suspect it will be a much bigger success story than Eve.

But all you’re really saying is Eve is doing great after ten years. Well…good for Eve.

And yes, I brought up the sandbox/themepark thing waaaaaaaaaaay earlier in this thread. If you don’t believe it, go look for yourself.

Someone else discounted it, because apparently they think sand boxes and theme park MMOs are the same genre, when in fact MMO isn’t even a genre.

It’s a small update, because on October 15th you’ll have a pretty big update, followed by the whole Halloween thing.

Do we know it will be removed?

darkace.8925:

knives.6345:

Sure they do. But if that will make profit go beyond the margin, they will change strategy – as with all other business out there.

Not everyone is so willing to throw artistic integrity aside in the quest for money. There’s a story I once heard (no clue if it’s actually true) about Guillermo del Toro pitching the idea of making a movie based on The Wind in the Willow, a childhood favorite of his. As the story goes, he met with studio executives and tells them his vision for what what he’d like the movie to be.

The executives – being experts in marketing and commercializing everything they touch – liked the idea, but thought the story was a bit antiquated. They asked if he’d be willing to “modernize” the story so that it would be better received – and thus more profitable – by today’s youth. They suggested things like making the Frog saying “hip” things, possibly rapping, and riding a skateboard. As the story goes, del Toro stood up, thanked them for their time, and walked out of the room. He’d rather not make the movie at all than something it was never supposed to be for the sake of “commercialization”.

Whether the story is actually true or not doesn’t matter. The point is too many people are too willing to give up what they dreamed of making in the name of money. Now I know it’s idealistic to say “artistic integrity matters more than commercialization” when it comes to the cooperate world, but just once I’d like to see someone actually fight that battle.

Now I’ll leave you all with a few lines from the great Tom Petty’s The Last DJ…

Well, you can’t turn him into a company man
You can’t turn him into a kitten
And the boys upstairs
Just don’t understand anymore

Well, the top brass don’t like him
Talking so much
And he won’t play what they say to play
And he don’t want to change
What don’t need to change

There goes the last DJ
Who plays what he wants to play
And says what he wants to say
Hey, hey, hey

Great story and it might be true, with one problem. People aren’t companies.

So how much of his money did del Toro invest in that? Because it’s very very easy to stand up for your principles when there’s nothing actually on the line. He’s going to work whether he takes that role or not. He can AFFORD to be picky. Not everyone is in that boat.

Let’s take a look at Anet. They have two games. One of them is 8 years old and probably not a big cash cow. They have all their resources invested in this one high cost project. Five years of work, countless dollars, and this is their shot.

I don’t really see how your story can compare to this.

This isn’t selling out for a dollar. This is making a change for the betterment of your business and again…we don’t even know if the game would have been more successful if it went the other way. It could be dead by now, with half the staff laid off (which has clearly not happened).

Daywolf.2630:

Vayne.8563:

Daywolf.2630:

Vayne.8563:

I’ve had people in my guild who played Eve completely and left over that debacle and didn’t return. Some of course did. But you insist I know nothing about something, because I don’t agree with you.

That’s like me saying you know nothing about Guild Wars 2 because you don’t agree with me. I didn’t say it, because I don’t think that way.

Some? Pretty much everyone returned, it was a protest quit, started out so. And really, many of those that “quit”, quit their alt accounts hehe. It was a message sent, and a message which in fact was received. Active accounts not only recovered, but surpassed the previous records.

But we are talking players that have been active for years, in a game that has increased it’s subscriber base consistently since launch ten years ago. GW2 is not old enough to be in that category, true loyalty has not been established yet. In fact I still have many players on my friends list that haven’t logged back into this game for over six months, and in a game that requires no subscription fee. I have new friends dropping out all the time, just unimpressed with the direction things have changed to. Oh and don’t get me started in on inactive guild lists.

IMO Anet is taking a huge gamble, and I can’t say they will be the better off for it in the long run. I have both games installed (I usually play 2 mmo’s), but I’m less certain how long GW2 will remain installed the way things have been going. I’ve never uninstalled the other, though I was part of that protest quit, respectively. Such a thing won’t work here, and I doubt I’d try if it could work, there in no built up loyalty either way, not to them and not to us, obviously. Went through the same thing with SWG, they wanted new/different players, reaching out to some other group of players they didn’t even have yet, invented the full-surprise NGE update and hemorrhaged accounts to never return. Many of use then found EVE, the obvious replacement, and CCP has been good to us.

Some people stopped and never went back and other people left because they felt the game later on had become a full time job. But more to the point, most players that start playing Eve don’t continue playing Eve. It really and truly is a niche game. It survives on subscriptions, not on numbers. If it didn’t have a monthly fee, it would be quite dead.

How many Eve players have more than one account, do you know? Do most players have two accounts? If not what percentage does.

There aren’t half a million people playing Eve, there are half a million subscribers, which is another matter entirely. And it’s still a game that’s a sandbox. Most of the content is made by the playerbase..rather than CCP.

So now you are saying it doesn’t count because it’s a “niche game”? One of the top 10 largest in the industry. And even though I was there and involved in the protest I don’t know what was really going on …despite the recovery and growth as soon as the issue was resolved? So what, is WoW the only game we can use as an example here since it is the ‘popular’ (well marketed) game and all mmo’s quiver in it’s shadow?

Meanwhile EVE continues to consistently grow (what other mmo’s have ever done that?) over the long-run, and continues to win major industry awards to this day. It’s probably one of the few games I would bet on still being around in another 10 years (then – it being 20 years old). More developers should follow CCP as an example of developer – community relations. Not “great” but good, as I used good as the descriptive word to rate their dev vs. player relationship. Still a better example than any other game I can think of.

Yes, Eve consistently grows and I’m sure it’s a fine game…not very good for casuals, mind you, but a fine game.

The issue is, subscriptions in Eve don’t equal number of people playing, because many people have multiple accounts. People I know who play do. And some of those accounts aren’t paid for in cash, they’re paid for by playing the game. It’s a very tricky thing to try to pin down what’s going on there.

But I’m not discounting Eve because it’s a niche game. I’m discounting Eve because it’s a sand box game, and Guild Wars 2 isn’t.

See in Guild Wars 2, pretty much ALL the content is made by Anet. In Eve, much of the content, if not most of the content is player made. And while that has advantages, I just don’t see how anyone can, in good faith, compare the games anyway. I said this earlier in this thread.

Theme park MMOs are substantially different from sand box MMOs. You can use Eve as an example all you want, but it won’t change that Guild Wars 2 is a theme park MMO and follows all the hallmarks of that. It should be compared to other themepark MMOs.

I don’t see anything unreasonable about that.

TooBz.3065:

Vayne.8563:

Smith.1826:

Vayne.8563:

Smith.1826:

Vayne.8563:

Chuo.4238:

Vayne.8563:

Chuo.4238:

With all this arguing about MMO X vs MMO Y I think we’re losing sight of the point that ArenaNet kittened off a whole bunch of people with this Ascended gear – both in principle (prefer skill-based vs gear-based) and in practice (don’t like grinding mats/crafting/whatever in order to prepare to have fun).

I can say that many players who get kittened off at one game go find another.

Yep. Many players. And many players have stayed. This has been my point all along.

No one knows how many people would have left if Anet stayed the course. It’s not possible to know.

In your mind you believe Anet is losing more players than they’re keeping. I don’t believe that’s true…and I’m pretty sure Anet doesn’t either. A dev has told me concurrency numbers are on the rise and have been for some time.

I agree you were screwed over by the changes…but that doesn’t make them bad changes. They’re just changes that don’t work for people who share your sentiments.

I don’t know if they’re losing more than they’re gaining or not. I do know they lost me. So if anyone’s keeping track of numbers, they can add +1 to the tally.

I was getting away from that losing vs gaining argument, not adding to it. How ’bout we get back on topic?

Edit: And Vayne, stop putting words in my mouth. You do that virtually every time you quote someone. It’s no wonder people get on your case so much.

You said “many players get kittened off”..and while that’s no doubt true, if those players are a minority, then your point is moot.

What’s his point? I thought the extent of what he was saying was just that he and some other players were upset with the direction of the game.

It’s not just that some players are kittened off and it’s not about one post. The faction that is kittened off are saying (including Chuo) that this was a huge portion of the player base. It wasn’t just like her and a couple of friends. It was a lot of people.

Alright. But is that what he said right there? I could only gather from that post that he and other people are upset with the game.

What he said right there is no different than what he said in countless other threads. People are mad. We’ve known those people were mad since last November. They’ve been made since then…at a game they’re disappointed in.

The direction of the game changed…no one denies it. Ten months on and they’re still mad. They come to the forums of this game to complain about ascended gear..that was announced last November. You’d think by now they’d have figured out that the game has changed, it’s not for them, and they’d find a game that was.

Because saying OMFG there’s vertical progression in the game for ten months solves what? Is Anet going to stop and take it all out tomorrow?

I don’t like the vertical progression either. I’m not in complete disagreement with what’s being said. The only difference is, I’m not taking the inclusion of vertical progression as a personal attack. Anet saw a problem, Anet moved to fix the problem. I don’t agree it was the best solution by ten months on? I think people would have moved on by now, instead of hanging around to complain on a forum over a change that was announced so long ago.

Even I think the game is too grindy. So?

I think, at least for me (as one of those who has been complaining about this for a long time (maybe not quite November)) I think I remain with the game due to a lack of a better alternatives (if someone has one, please PM me, I know you can’t post one) but at the same time I remain deeply disappointed in this direction.

Once the new MMOs come out next year you will see a drop off in complaints.

I can’t wait, actually…because I know what happens. SWToR was once one of those new MMOs. TSW was. Hell, Neverwinter was a new MMO, people talked about it and now I hear nothing about it.

Everyone talks up the next big MMO and has been for years..but there hasn’t been a next big MMO because it’s easier to say what you’re going to do than to accomplish doing it.

There are too many people who want too many conflicting things. You can’t please everyone (and you need to to have a blockbuster) or you remain niche. I don’t see any new MMO having less problems implementing change than Guild Wars 2 has had.

But I’ll be happy when those people who aren’t happy find something they’re happy with.

Erick Alastor.3917:

Vayne.8563:

Guild Wars 2 isn’t instanced though. It’s zoned, but the zones are open. That means anyone can freely enter them if there’s room.

In other words, if you enter an instance in Guild Wars 1 by yourself, no one else can EVER enter your instance. It’s done. It’s not open world.

In Guild Wars 2, if you leave divinity’s reach by yourself, other people can follow you out. That makes it, in the language that has evolved around MMOs anyway, NOT an instance.

Ok saying zoned is more correct.
The fact remains that in GW1 every specific area was accessible to all, whether you were there or not, so the world was persistent, and outposts were the connection points where were concentrated most of the social interactions.

To Daywolf.2630
It’s not just a marketing move, today mmo have nothing to do with the technology behind them or “where you put your players” they are all about interactions/partecipation/growth.

Unfortunately this sector rely too much on the last one of those points, influencing the behavior of the players in a pavlovian way.

In order to communicate, people have to define terms. Every definition of an MMORPG I’ve ever seen involves an open world…meaning a world that anyone can join random strangers in, without grouping before hand.

You say the instances in Guild Wars 1 exist before you enter them, but I’m thinking those instances are created for you, when you enter them. That’s why when two of us are in LA and I’m up to the War in Krtya content and someone else isn’t, when we go through the gate we get completely different zones. Mine are filled with high level and high functioning White Mantle, and someone else gets ettins and fire imps.

The zone is there for you only and you alone. If you enter alone, you remain alone.

And again, after years of playing MMOs, talking about MMOs with other people, reading about MMOs, this seems to be how most people define them. If you have a different defintion, it doesn’t really help you communicate with others.

Nuka Cola.8520:

Vayne.8563:

Nuka Cola.8520:

Vorch.2985:

Nuka Cola.8520:

Vayne.8563:

Nuka Cola.8520:

At this point no1 but Vayne is happy with the direction gw2 is taking. For casuals its getting too grindy, for ‘hardcore’ audience there’s absolutely nothing to do but wvw (who the F wastes time on old boring dungeons to gain 1g per run lolz). So, anet, what’s up? Where you going with this game? Can i please have my original gw1 team back and send the current team to build Zerg Wars 2: Facebook Edition?

No one but Vayne is happy with the direction this game is taking. Really? No one. How about Vayne’s wife. There’s two right there. Immediately, you’re mistaken. What about some of Vayne’s guildies. We do have 120 people in the guild and most of them seem to be happy with the game.

What you’re really saying is players who want what you want aren’t happy. Players who want very specific things may not be happy. But for people who do a bit of everything, I’m not so sure that there’s much of a problem.

Absolutely no one but you, im sorry. Its just impossible to like their direction you know why? Because it leads nowhere else but gem store. Do you buy games to wait twice a month new gem store items as ‘new content’ while nothing worth mentioning is added to pvp/pve? They’re adding nothing else but items to their shop and a generic quest for 120 brand new hot n exciting achievements with every single patch for how many months now? I don’t even know anymore and don’t care. What do you think will be added next patch? I’ll use my crystal ball, gimme a sec!!! at least 10 new n hawt gem store garbage, generic quest that makes you WP across the map, ~20 new achievements and some crappy weapon skins. This is your next patch, enjoy.

I like the game and the GENERAL direction.

Most people on the forums, even the angry ones, like the game.

However, every patch is not for everyone. Those who the patch did not appeal to tend to get upset.

And I like how you say nothing worth mentioning is added to PvE/PvP. Short of scrapping both modes and starting over, I don’t think anything added would appeal to you.

Just as nothing can make Vayne truly upset, nothing can make Nuka Cola truly happy.

I love watching you two quote each other, btw.

i just want my gw1 team back, they build content for players to play instead of creating gem store overpriced items for players to buy, go in LA and spam flute or Boom Box. Nothing changes with every patch, its the same kind of copy/pasted content over n over again. If i wasn’t happy three months ago because anet was on a jumping puzzle rampage spam with gem store items as ‘content’, how am i supposed to be happy when its the same thing in September 2013? They don’t improve but stay below average while milking everyone with gem store

You’re saying the T’quatl update changed nothing? Really?

Why don’t you go play Guild Wars 1 with your old team?

Yeah teq changed something? like what? all i see is overflow fails that can’t drop his HP below 70% most of the times and after ~3 minutes of fighting teq everyone is just starting to swap overflows hoping to find one that isn’t braindead. Teq changed nothing else but bring a time sink to the ultimate money sink game. Teq changed something lol you’re funny. GW1 is dead, if it was rebuilt on a new engine i wouldn’t be talking to you right now but play the game cuz it had something gw2 doesn’t know or have seen,,,,,,,,, gameplay.

Well, if people are failing Tequatl then I’d say that something HAS changed, since no one used to fail. Imagine that, people asked for harder content and Anet gave them harder content….and some people seem to like him.

I see flaws in how it’s laid out, but I have all the achievements I’ve we’ve beat him like three times, most recently earlier today.

Nuka Cola.8520:

Vorch.2985:

Nuka Cola.8520:

Vayne.8563:

Nuka Cola.8520:

At this point no1 but Vayne is happy with the direction gw2 is taking. For casuals its getting too grindy, for ‘hardcore’ audience there’s absolutely nothing to do but wvw (who the F wastes time on old boring dungeons to gain 1g per run lolz). So, anet, what’s up? Where you going with this game? Can i please have my original gw1 team back and send the current team to build Zerg Wars 2: Facebook Edition?

No one but Vayne is happy with the direction this game is taking. Really? No one. How about Vayne’s wife. There’s two right there. Immediately, you’re mistaken. What about some of Vayne’s guildies. We do have 120 people in the guild and most of them seem to be happy with the game.

What you’re really saying is players who want what you want aren’t happy. Players who want very specific things may not be happy. But for people who do a bit of everything, I’m not so sure that there’s much of a problem.

Absolutely no one but you, im sorry. Its just impossible to like their direction you know why? Because it leads nowhere else but gem store. Do you buy games to wait twice a month new gem store items as ‘new content’ while nothing worth mentioning is added to pvp/pve? They’re adding nothing else but items to their shop and a generic quest for 120 brand new hot n exciting achievements with every single patch for how many months now? I don’t even know anymore and don’t care. What do you think will be added next patch? I’ll use my crystal ball, gimme a sec!!! at least 10 new n hawt gem store garbage, generic quest that makes you WP across the map, ~20 new achievements and some crappy weapon skins. This is your next patch, enjoy.

I like the game and the GENERAL direction.

Most people on the forums, even the angry ones, like the game.

However, every patch is not for everyone. Those who the patch did not appeal to tend to get upset.

And I like how you say nothing worth mentioning is added to PvE/PvP. Short of scrapping both modes and starting over, I don’t think anything added would appeal to you.

Just as nothing can make Vayne truly upset, nothing can make Nuka Cola truly happy.

I love watching you two quote each other, btw.

i just want my gw1 team back, they build content for players to play instead of creating gem store overpriced items for players to buy, go in LA and spam flute or Boom Box. Nothing changes with every patch, its the same kind of copy/pasted content over n over again. If i wasn’t happy three months ago because anet was on a jumping puzzle rampage spam with gem store items as ‘content’, how am i supposed to be happy when its the same thing in September 2013? They don’t improve but stay below average while milking everyone with gem store

You’re saying the T’quatl update changed nothing? Really?

Why don’t you go play Guild Wars 1 with your old team?

MikaHR.1978:

Vayne.8563:

MikaHR.1978:

Vayne.8563:

MikaHR.1978:

Vayne.8563:

Tom Gore.4035:

MikaHR.1978:

there was multiple elses that “offered same kind of experience”. And EvE kept growing.

WoW and GW2 keep shrinking.

Oh really? Can you list a few, just for my amusement?

Yep, WoW is down to 14 times the entire user base of Eve, assuming that everyone who has a subscription is an individual, something I know that’s not true. Guild Wars 2 probably has more players than Eve too…but that is harder to prove.

Of course, if I can’t prove something, I at least admit it.

Yup, WoW lost “only” 5 million players. Is that bragging rights or what.

And how many players did Eve gain in that time period? How do you know they’re players and not just people with second and third accounts?

Oh, right, you don’t.

I’m not sure WoW ever had a population as low as Eve does at its height…and I don’t even like WoW and wouldn’t give that game the time of day. I think Eve is a much better game. But it’s clearly niche.

Ahahahahha, yes, EvE is a giant conspiracy where people pay for 10 accounts just to give larger sub numbers ROFL

Keep it coming bro

EvE is one of the rare games that arent ashamed of the numbers and you can track concurrency and they regualry publish sub numbers. But then its the only growing MMO, what numbers has ANet gave us? Eh, some lunch and thats IT. Oh yes, they said occasionaly they see raised numbers, but since you yourself stronly argued all they say is BS, well, thats BS too.

Yep, I’ve seen the concurrency figures of Eve. Rather low, those. I guess a niche game is going to have that.

This is where you enormous lack of experience in MMOs shows. Sorry dude, but educate yourself first.

Yes everyone here is reading this thread and can make their own judgement on which of the two of us are inexperienced.

MikaHR.1978:

Vayne.8563:

MikaHR.1978:

Vayne.8563:

Tom Gore.4035:

MikaHR.1978:

there was multiple elses that “offered same kind of experience”. And EvE kept growing.

WoW and GW2 keep shrinking.

Oh really? Can you list a few, just for my amusement?

Yep, WoW is down to 14 times the entire user base of Eve, assuming that everyone who has a subscription is an individual, something I know that’s not true. Guild Wars 2 probably has more players than Eve too…but that is harder to prove.

Of course, if I can’t prove something, I at least admit it.

Yup, WoW lost “only” 5 million players. Is that bragging rights or what.

And how many players did Eve gain in that time period? How do you know they’re players and not just people with second and third accounts?

Oh, right, you don’t.

I’m not sure WoW ever had a population as low as Eve does at its height…and I don’t even like WoW and wouldn’t give that game the time of day. I think Eve is a much better game. But it’s clearly niche.

Ahahahahha, yes, EvE is a giant conspiracy where people pay for 10 accounts just to give larger sub numbers ROFL

Keep it coming bro

EvE is one of the rare games that arent ashamed of the numbers and you can track concurrency and they regualry publish sub numbers. But then its the only growing MMO, what numbers has ANet gave us? Eh, some lunch and thats IT. Oh yes, they said occasionaly they see raised numbers, but since you yourself stronly argued all they say is BS, well, thats BS too.

Yep, I’ve seen the concurrency figures of Eve. Rather low, those. I guess a niche game is going to have that.

cesmode.4257:

MrRuin.9740:

And you wonder why Anet won’t give a straight answer about a lot of things. I don’t know about Anet, but I know I’m tired of seeing the kittening thing.
It’s one thing to lobby for a change in the gamestate or help shape and push it in a direction that you would like or feel that it would be better, its another to cling to this one kittening statement and whip it out like its the golden law every week.

You can bet if Anet learned anything from the Manifesto…its to not have one out there and to say as little as possible because this is what happens.

I can’t think of one game that Ive played in the last 10 years that had as bold of a mission statement as Arenanet’s manifesto. Developers don’t do that. They don’t sit in front of camera and make bold claims about what their game will be, wont be, etc. And then later on when things aren’t working out, they claim that we ‘mis understood’.

I remember Rift devs making some pretty bold claims. Maybe you weren’t listening?

MikaHR.1978:

Vayne.8563:

Tom Gore.4035:

MikaHR.1978:

there was multiple elses that “offered same kind of experience”. And EvE kept growing.

WoW and GW2 keep shrinking.

Oh really? Can you list a few, just for my amusement?

Yep, WoW is down to 14 times the entire user base of Eve, assuming that everyone who has a subscription is an individual, something I know that’s not true. Guild Wars 2 probably has more players than Eve too…but that is harder to prove.

Of course, if I can’t prove something, I at least admit it.

Yup, WoW lost “only” 5 million players. Is that bragging rights or what.

And how many players did Eve gain in that time period? How do you know they’re players and not just people with second and third accounts?

Oh, right, you don’t.

I’m not sure WoW ever had a population as low as Eve does at its height…and I don’t even like WoW and wouldn’t give that game the time of day. I think Eve is a much better game. But it’s clearly niche.

Nuka Cola.8520:

Vayne.8563:

Nuka Cola.8520:

At this point no1 but Vayne is happy with the direction gw2 is taking. For casuals its getting too grindy, for ‘hardcore’ audience there’s absolutely nothing to do but wvw (who the F wastes time on old boring dungeons to gain 1g per run lolz). So, anet, what’s up? Where you going with this game? Can i please have my original gw1 team back and send the current team to build Zerg Wars 2: Facebook Edition?

No one but Vayne is happy with the direction this game is taking. Really? No one. How about Vayne’s wife. There’s two right there. Immediately, you’re mistaken. What about some of Vayne’s guildies. We do have 120 people in the guild and most of them seem to be happy with the game.

What you’re really saying is players who want what you want aren’t happy. Players who want very specific things may not be happy. But for people who do a bit of everything, I’m not so sure that there’s much of a problem.

Absolutely no one but you, im sorry. Its just impossible to like their direction you know why? Because it leads nowhere else but gem store. Do you buy games to wait twice a month new gem store items as ‘new content’ while nothing worth mentioning is added to pvp/pve? They’re adding nothing else but items to their shop and a generic quest for 120 brand new hot n exciting achievements with every single patch for how many months now? I don’t even know anymore and don’t care. What do you think will be added next patch? I’ll use my crystal ball, gimme a sec!!! at least 10 new n hawt gem store garbage, generic quest that makes you WP across the map, ~20 new achievements and some crappy weapon skins. This is your next patch, enjoy.

I don’t recall buying any gems to fight T’quatl, which I think is an epic open world battle. There are definitely some problems with the battle, but that’s the same with newly released raids in most games.

The increase in the difficulty of the other world bosses, while relatively minor, is pretty cool. I went down twice and died yesterday at the fire elemental. True I wasn’t on an 80th level character, but the idea that that could actually happen tickled me.

I ran Sanctum Sprint today, several times, because I enjoy it and you know, I don’t remember buying any gems for that either.

Tom Gore.4035:

MikaHR.1978:

there was multiple elses that “offered same kind of experience”. And EvE kept growing.

WoW and GW2 keep shrinking.

Oh really? Can you list a few, just for my amusement?

Yep, WoW is down to 14 times the entire user base of Eve, assuming that everyone who has a subscription is an individual, something I know that’s not true. Guild Wars 2 probably has more players than Eve too…but that is harder to prove.

Of course, if I can’t prove something, I at least admit it.

eisberg.2379:

MikaHR.1978:

pay per hour is not a sub.

And thats Blizzards payment model in China. They lump it in with subs.

Pay per Hour certainly is a sub, it is nothing more than a smaller version of Paying Per Month. Paying a sub with in game money, which Eve does, is not a sub though /rolleyes

Eve has 3 players each with 165,000 accounts. lol

Nuka Cola.8520:

At this point no1 but Vayne is happy with the direction gw2 is taking. For casuals its getting too grindy, for ‘hardcore’ audience there’s absolutely nothing to do but wvw (who the F wastes time on old boring dungeons to gain 1g per run lolz). So, anet, what’s up? Where you going with this game? Can i please have my original gw1 team back and send the current team to build Zerg Wars 2: Facebook Edition?

No one but Vayne is happy with the direction this game is taking. Really? No one. How about Vayne’s wife. There’s two right there. Immediately, you’re mistaken. What about some of Vayne’s guildies. We do have 120 people in the guild and most of them seem to be happy with the game.

What you’re really saying is players who want what you want aren’t happy. Players who want very specific things may not be happy. But for people who do a bit of everything, I’m not so sure that there’s much of a problem.

Eurhetemec.9052:

knives.6345:

Oh god. The manifesto again.

The game needs to evolve people. There is a market of MMO’s out there that is called “competition”. ANet needs to compete with them.

If people are getting bored of the manifesto-based content – ANet needs to deviate to continue the game, to keep more players interested and make profit (yes, ANet is a company whose primary goal is to make money – they are not a charity created to cheer people up)

If you will argue that people like the manifesto more – my only response is, “just because you’re the loudest, doesn’t mean you’re the majority”.

If people are bored of the manifesto-based content.

Well, they aren’t. That’s the thing.

The non-manifesto, anti-manifesto content is what people are complaining about.

You’re claiming people aren’t bored of dynamic events and personal stories? Ummmm, I’ve read otherwise on these forums. There’s a lot of stuff in the manifesto that didn’t live up to expectations, which you can clearly here from many of these threads.

Anet saw people ignoring events, and they saw people complaining about the personal story and they came up with something else.

Keep in mind all the stuff in the manifesto was how the game basically started and people were walking away fairly quickly…much more quickly than they are now from what I can see anyway.

MikaHR.1978:

Zanthrax.6538:

Im so shocked at how many people are so ill informed, assuming that they will add more tiers of gear the grind is insane they are caving to the 1%‘ers aka hardcore players….when they don’t realise everything they are saying is false and to be brutally honest those vocal forum complainers are the 1%’ers -_-

You are shocked at how you yourself are so ill informed

READ MY SIG

And the best they told was “we HOPE we wont add new tier” rofl

Anyway, you dont even need new tier for endless gear grind, they already have boatload of grind in this tier, dont worry, youll et new gear to grind every few months.

Because they’ve added so many new tiers in the year the game was out…oh wait…

darkace.8925:

Vayne.8563:

Sure they wanted to be a unique snowflake. I want to run the three minute mile. Reality has other plans.

You can’t change the genre more than players will allow you to change it. Anet didn’t count on that.

You keep implying they had no choice but to change course; that they were faced with the choice of selling out or shutting down. You keep implying that they wanted to blaze a new path for the genre, but the world refused to let them do so. You don’t know that they weren’t making plenty of money and just wanted that extra bit more anymore that we don’t know that they weren’t making enough money to stay the course. So can we please drop the “it’s our fault, not theirs” routine?

I’ve actually never said they had no choice. I’ve said THEY BELIEVED they had no choice. There’s a big difference.

I think it could have worked in different ways, but the risk would have been higher. Unfortunately, I don’t feel it’s my place to tell someone who invested millions of dollars into a project how that project needs to be run to take care of business. I either like the product, or I don’t. If I don’t, I walk away.

But I don’t judge, because I’ve been in business and I’ve been forced to make changes I absolutely hated. Some of them stick in my throat to this day.

It’s POSSIBLE they could have done other things, but they didn’t and we’ll never know. But I can’t think of anything they could have done with less associated risk, that’s all.

Erick Alastor.3917:

Vayne.8563:

Ashen.2907:

Vayne.8563:

Except that long before Guild Wars 1, players were playing with hundreds of people at the same time, so Guild Wars 1’s 12 player instances (and there were only two of those, most of the game was 8 player), couldn’t be considered massively multiplayer.

Your personal experience doesn’t change what the industry defines itself but what’s out on the market.

I mean WoW with it’s open world released before Guild Wars 1 did, and beyond that, Everquest, DAoC and others released before.

So a zone with less than 12 people (for what its worth you could potentially have as many as 24 people in one instance in GW1-not counting towns and outposts) in it is no longer an MMO ?

Where is the exact number of people required for something to be considered an MMO listed ? I think that you will find that the industry does not define itself in this regard.

A game’s release date, you mention WoW, EQ, and DAoC is not a number of players or a definition of a word (massive).

A company can call their product anything they like. They can even claim that it is not “X” if they like. That decision has no bearing on what the product actually is. If ANet opted to claim that GW1 was not a PC Fantasy computer game but rather a suped up digital adding machine pseudo medieval world simulator…it would be no less a PC fantasy computer game.

It’s not how many people are in the zone. The zone is instanced.

The first time I played Guild Wars 1, I kept walking up to NPCs in the “world” and trying to talk to them. Like in chat. Because I wasn’t used to not having players in the world.

In an MMO the world is open. Anyone can wander in. You don’t form a party and go out into your own instance. That’s what a dungeon is in a typical MMO.

It’s less about the number of players and more about the world being open to anyone who wants to enter it.

Guild Wars 1 was a lobby game. You formed your party in an outpost (lobby), then you entered an instance that no one else but your party could enter.

No one I know would call that an MMO.

If it as nothing to do with numbers, even GW2 is istanced, but the cap is higher…
so GW2 is not an mmorpg…
Do you see now why I said that the only meter to define an mmorpg is the interaction between a lot of people? :O

No one you know would call that an MMO? (I have to post it again .-.)

Guild Wars 2 isn’t instanced though. It’s zoned, but the zones are open. That means anyone can freely enter them if there’s room.

In other words, if you enter an instance in Guild Wars 1 by yourself, no one else can EVER enter your instance. It’s done. It’s not open world.

In Guild Wars 2, if you leave divinities reach by yourself, other people can follow you out. That makes it, in the language that has evolved around MMOs anyway, NOT an instance.

Nikaido.3457:

Vayne.8563:

Oh they’re loud. Squeaky wheel gets the grease, but it doesn’t make them right.

Not nearly as loud as one particular individual in this thread. Most of them will quit arguing in this subsect, just like all the others you have interacted with in your 152 pages of insanity.

You really shouldn’t bring up loudness because you are a true, massive army of loudspeakers all by yourself.

Who knows who are the minority or majority, but in terms of loudness, what you call loudness is the opinion of a truly diverse group of people who come to and leave this forum, while your loudness is a massive forum spam of epic proportions.

I’ll post a screenshot of my friendlist once prime time hits just like the others because a list of offline players speaks more than any words we could put in that thread.

Sure, I’m one of the few voices supporting the game who haven’t left in annoyance at the negativity that has become rampant here. We don’t have hundreds of people complaining about the game constantly and loudly, we have a dozen. And yes, that means if most people aren’t replying to them, and I am, I’m loud. But I’m just calling BS BS, that’s all.

People who claim to have a majority when they don’t know should be challenged. I’m not sure why that should bother you.

xephire.8324:

Vayne.8563:

Chuo.4238:

xephire.8324:

haviz.1340:

Nikaido.3457:

It is rude but it’s also almost impossible not to when you’re in front of someone who has a 151 pages history of vehemently arguing in any thread showing any sort of criticism against anet. (what the f..? I don’t think anyone else in this whole thread has a comparable amount/omnipresence. Paid PR or you just don’t like this game as much as you pretend to and spend more time on forums than actually playing or doing other stuff in your life?)

I don’t think it’s possible to read the general discussion subsection for more than a week without developing a distaste for the One Man PR Army you represent.

+9001

Liked +10000000

+ one more…151 pages of discussion derailment, lawyering, and quibbling. Does it for free, too. It’d be nice to just be able to have a discussion, comparison, and contrast of a few things around here without having to deal with that. Reminds me of my teenage nephew.

And yea, I’m tired enough of it that I’m actually starting to say things about it…

See I’m in the same boat as you. I’m tired of seeing posts that talk about the game in absolute terms that are simple opinions of a group of people who may or may not be a vast minority. No one really knows. Oh they’re loud. Squeaky wheel gets the grease, but it doesn’t make them right.

You can complain about me all you like, but I’m not breaking rules by contradicting people who just want to bash a game they’re no longer playing or interested in.

If you’re tired of seeing those post why don’t you retire from reading them XD

He was complaining about my posts, and that’s okay, but when I do the same it’s not. Your double standard is showing.

Chuo.4238:

xephire.8324:

haviz.1340:

Nikaido.3457:

It is rude but it’s also almost impossible not to when you’re in front of someone who has a 151 pages history of vehemently arguing in any thread showing any sort of criticism against anet. (what the f..? I don’t think anyone else in this whole thread has a comparable amount/omnipresence. Paid PR or you just don’t like this game as much as you pretend to and spend more time on forums than actually playing or doing other stuff in your life?)

I don’t think it’s possible to read the general discussion subsection for more than a week without developing a distaste for the One Man PR Army you represent.

+9001

Liked +10000000

+ one more…151 pages of discussion derailment, lawyering, and quibbling. Does it for free, too. It’d be nice to just be able to have a discussion, comparison, and contrast of a few things around here without having to deal with that. Reminds me of my teenage nephew.

And yea, I’m tired enough of it that I’m actually starting to say things about it…

See I’m in the same boat as you. I’m tired of seeing posts that talk about the game in absolute terms that are simple opinions of a group of people who may or may not be a vast minority. No one really knows. Oh they’re loud. Squeaky wheel gets the grease, but it doesn’t make them right.

You can complain about me all you like, but I’m not breaking rules by contradicting people who just want to bash a game they’re no longer playing or interested in.

xephire.8324:

What proof do you have that 100% of your friends that said they are not coming back came back.

See I didn’t say 100% of my friends said they weren’t coming back. But I don’t need proof of something that happened TO ME. I’m relating MY experience.

Saying that any group is a majority is no longer talking for just you. You’re talking for everyone. You’re making a definitive statement.

Let’s say I said I once visited Florida, which I did. I don’t need to prove it, and I don’t care if you believe me.

But if I tell you most people who live in Michigan have visited Florida, I’d have to produce evidence because I’m making a statement which has no actual witnesses.

See you can say you don’t believe I visited Florida and that’s fine. But you’d have to call me an liar (which is also fine).

But you can’t call me a liar if I say that most people from Michigan have been to Florida, because I might well believe it. Still I’d need evidence to back it up.

Ashen.2907:

Vayne.8563:

Except that long before Guild Wars 1, players were playing with hundreds of people at the same time, so Guild Wars 1’s 12 player instances (and there were only two of those, most of the game was 8 player), couldn’t be considered massively multiplayer.

Your personal experience doesn’t change what the industry defines itself but what’s out on the market.

I mean WoW with it’s open world released before Guild Wars 1 did, and beyond that, Everquest, DAoC and others released before.

So a zone with less than 12 people (for what its worth you could potentially have as many as 24 people in one instance in GW1-not counting towns and outposts) in it is no longer an MMO ?

Where is the exact number of people required for something to be considered an MMO listed ? I think that you will find that the industry does not define itself in this regard.

A game’s release date, you mention WoW, EQ, and DAoC is not a number of players or a definition of a word (massive).

A company can call their product anything they like. They can even claim that it is not “X” if they like. That decision has no bearing on what the product actually is. If ANet opted to claim that GW1 was not a PC Fantasy computer game but rather a suped up digital adding machine pseudo medieval world simulator…it would be no less a PC fantasy computer game.

It’s not how many people are in the zone. The zone is instanced.

The first time I played Guild Wars 1, I kept walking up to NPCs in the “world” and trying to talk to them. Like in chat. Because I wasn’t used to not having players in the world.

In an MMO the world is open. Anyone can wander in. You don’t form a party and go out into your own instance. That’s what a dungeon is in a typical MMO.

It’s less about the number of players and more about the world being open to anyone who wants to enter it.

Guild Wars 1 was a lobby game. You formed your party in an outpost (lobby), then you entered an instance that no one else but your party could enter.

No one I know would call that an MMO.

MikaHR.1978:

Galen Grey.4709:

MikaHR.1978:

So, now a year later…endgame is: same dungeon runs, same running around orr doing event chains, and addition of champ trains. And for what? Gear that noone needs for anything (apparently) BUT with addition that imbalances whole game even more (sans sPvP) because of higher stats and no content that requires higher stats.

Nice going Vayne, youve proven the point all by yourself.

That exactly the point. The game was designed from day 1 to let players play whatever they choose to play. Any zone is open to any player at max level, mini games, jumping puzzles, secret events, WvW, new content every 2 weeks, There is more content then anyone can possibly consume. Yet those same players complained that there was nothing to do other then run dungeons and do event chains because that was the most rewarding content and they refused to play anything but the most rewarding content.

Which is ironic because some players complain this game is turning into WoW when I am sad to say the problem is players refuse to play this game in a different way then they play WoW thats problem right there. Thats whats creating these issues right there. Ohh I have to have BiS at any costs and as quickly as possible even though the game tries really hard to ensure BiS is not needed any entirely optional just like cosmetic armor is. Why should I play in Lornar’s Pass, I make more money in Orr. Play Mini games? whats the point? Jumping puzzles? not enough reward based on effort required etc.. etc..

Let me ask you this… why are playing amasing around running dungeons, Orr event farming or champion trains? is it because its the only content the game offers? hmm nope definitely not the case. Its because people don’t care about the content they care about the rewards. So really what do you expect Arenanet to do if players are tying their hands up ? Would removing these rewards satisfy those players you’re speaking off yourself you think?

They did the best possible thing they could do. Give them the rewards they crave, make them take long to get to keep them happy for as long as possible by providing them a goal they can work towards and make these rewards entirely optional so that players who enjoy content rather then rewards would not have to give up the content they enjoy to get those rewards further more make sure that playing enough of any content will get you those rewards anyway in the long run. What could they possibly do thats better then what they did really?

Quite contrary, ANet tied their own hands up by caving in to small vocal whiney minority. Now that they started gear grind treadmill they have to deal with its consequences, and guess what – dealing with that same consequences is what gear grind treadmill games have been (unsuccessfully) dealing with since EQ. Furthermore, GW2 wasnt even designed for gear treadmill which will make it even worse.

And, one big big point: people who whined about no endgame STILL have no endgame, just new tier of gear for sake of new tier of gear.

What proof do you have that this is a minority? All you can safely say is that they are a minority of people who post to forums (if that). But you can’t even know they’re a majority of people who lurk.

This is the kind of statement you’re prone to making. You call people minorities without a shred of evidence that they are a minority.

haviz.1340:

knives.6345:

Oh god. The manifesto again.

The game needs to evolve people. There is a market of MMO’s out there that is called “competition”. ANet needs to compete with them.

If people are getting bored of the manifesto-based content – ANet needs to deviate to continue the game, to keep more players interested and make profit (yes, ANet is a company whose primary goal is to make money – they are not a charity created to cheer people up)

If you will argue that people like the manifesto more – my only response is, “just because you’re the loudest, doesn’t mean you’re the majority”.

I thought anet had wanted to be an unique snowflake.

Sure they wanted to be a unique snowflake. I want to run the three minute mile. Reality has other plans.

You can’t change the genre more than players will allow you to change it. Anet didn’t count on that.

MikaHR.1978:

Vayne.8563:

MikaHR.1978:

Vayne.8563:

Erick Alastor.3917:

Vayne.8563:

Nope, the forum went belly up, so there’s nothing there anymore. It was gw2forum.com though, if you’re interested. And I don’t really care if you believe me or not. Your belief is not required to make something true or not true. There were enough people on these forums to remember how many threads there were about nothing to do at 80. I’m not making it up and if you don’t want to believe me, that’s perfectly fine. I’m happy with that.

No, I won’t show a friends list screenshot, because there are people in these forums immature enough to harass my friends. I’ve already been annoyed in game by people on these forums (which is fine because they’re annoying me, not anyone else). I wouldn’t subject anyone else on my friends list to some of the people who post here.

Again, if you don’t believe me, it doesn’t matter. It doesn’t change the truth one iota.

Indeed my belief is not required, but showing proofs of what you say it’s another matter if you want to clarify your point of view to the readers.
I don’t know anything about your forum, but I remember that in this forum there were VP whiners, but also a lot of people that suggested them to change their minds because this was not a WoW clone.
And about your friendlist, do as I did, no one can be arrassed in that way

First of all, the same sorts of things you see on this forum, you see on other forums. Just look at Guild Wars 2 guru if you don’t believe me. There’s negativity on forums everywhere…in most MMOs, not just Guild Wars 2.

But people really were complaining about not having anything to do. The legendary wasn’t worth going for, because it was too much of a grind for the average person, and they’d hit level 80 run some dungeons and that was it.

Remember back then there were no guaranteed daily rares from world bosses, dungeons didn’t drop the same kind of loot, even, there were no Scarlet invasions. End game back then if you were a PvE’er were dungeon runs (fractals didn’t exist either) and running around Orr doing the event chains.

For a lot of people, they were farming, but for what? They already had the highest stats…and not everyone cares about skins (my sons for example).

So, now a year later…endgame is: same dungeon runs, same running around orr doing event chains, and addition of champ trains. And for what? Gear that noone needs for anything (apparently) BUT with addition that imbalances whole game even more (sans sPvP) because of higher stats.

Nice going Vayne, youve proven the point all by yourself.

For a guy who thought he knew what this game was about (and a guy who loves quoting devs), why don’t you quote the bits about Guild Wars 2 not having an end game? Oh I see, you conveniently forget to quote the stuff that proves you wrong. I get it.

The game was advertising as having no end game and devs said directly what you’d be doing at level cap is pretty much the same stuff you’d be doing while leveling.

I didn’t just prove my point. I proved you only listen to what the devs say when they don’t deliver on their “promises”. But you ignore their promises if it suits your convenience to do so.

Ahahahahahahhahahah

I didnt mentioned endgame YOU did, and you explained quite nicely how GW2 didnt and doesnt have and endgame, and that new tier of gear is still not an endgame and therefore people you mentioned that whined about endgame STILL dont have an endgame but your plain ignorance prevents you from admitting it.

Oh, and its YOU who keep repeating that developers say a lot of stuff and that its all BS and nothing they say matters tiny bit.

Did anyone every tell you laughing at people is rude? Just curious.

You contradict yourself with almost every post and then try to pin that on me. Having fun?

Erick Alastor.3917:

Vayne.8563:

No one is saying that Guild Wars 2 isn’t a true MMO. All I’m saying is Guild Wars 1 wasn’t a true MMO. Anet has acknowledged that themselves, so if you want to argue, feel free to argue with them.

I don’t know anyone who would say Guild Wars 2 wasn’t a true MMO.

Indeed no one is saying that, I’m saying that GW1 was an mmo as well no matter how much devs deny it
You can say that GW1 was less similar to WoW/WoW clones, but this dosn’t make it less mmo than them.

Well you can make your own definitions of you like…no one will stop you. I think it’s not only the devs who defined the game that way. Many people from actual MMOs came to Guild Wars 1 and said it wasn’t an MMO. You may not agree with those people, but they were there. I’m one of them. I played WoW, before I played Guild Wars 1 and it sure wasn’t an MMO to me, long before I heard what the devs said.

Chuo.4238:

I think people are starting to wake up about GW2 and quality gameplay, and whether or not the two go together…

See, this is the type of stuff you post that’s simply indefensible. People are starting to wake up…

You don’t like the game PERSONALLY. Some other people don’t like the game.

There have also been threads praising the T’quatl encounter and threads praising the Queen’s Guantlet and even threads praising the Scarlet invasions.

Sure some people don’t like the direction the game is taking. But there’s no way in Sam’s Heaven you can tell me that what you said here isn’t implying that there’s an overall shortage of quality and most people are noticing it.

Because plenty of people seem to be enjoying the game.

MikaHR.1978:

Vayne.8563:

Erick Alastor.3917:

Vayne.8563:

Nope, the forum went belly up, so there’s nothing there anymore. It was gw2forum.com though, if you’re interested. And I don’t really care if you believe me or not. Your belief is not required to make something true or not true. There were enough people on these forums to remember how many threads there were about nothing to do at 80. I’m not making it up and if you don’t want to believe me, that’s perfectly fine. I’m happy with that.

No, I won’t show a friends list screenshot, because there are people in these forums immature enough to harass my friends. I’ve already been annoyed in game by people on these forums (which is fine because they’re annoying me, not anyone else). I wouldn’t subject anyone else on my friends list to some of the people who post here.

Again, if you don’t believe me, it doesn’t matter. It doesn’t change the truth one iota.

Indeed my belief is not required, but showing proofs of what you say it’s another matter if you want to clarify your point of view to the readers.
I don’t know anything about your forum, but I remember that in this forum there were VP whiners, but also a lot of people that suggested them to change their minds because this was not a WoW clone.
And about your friendlist, do as I did, no one can be arrassed in that way

First of all, the same sorts of things you see on this forum, you see on other forums. Just look at Guild Wars 2 guru if you don’t believe me. There’s negativity on forums everywhere…in most MMOs, not just Guild Wars 2.

But people really were complaining about not having anything to do. The legendary wasn’t worth going for, because it was too much of a grind for the average person, and they’d hit level 80 run some dungeons and that was it.

Remember back then there were no guaranteed daily rares from world bosses, dungeons didn’t drop the same kind of loot, even, there were no Scarlet invasions. End game back then if you were a PvE’er were dungeon runs (fractals didn’t exist either) and running around Orr doing the event chains.

For a lot of people, they were farming, but for what? They already had the highest stats…and not everyone cares about skins (my sons for example).

So, now a year later…endgame is: same dungeon runs, same running around orr doing event chains, and addition of champ trains. And for what? Gear that noone needs for anything (apparently) BUT with addition that imbalances whole game even more (sans sPvP) because of higher stats.

Nice going Vayne, youve proven the point all by yourself.

For a guy who thought he knew what this game was about (and a guy who loves quoting devs), why don’t you quote the bits about Guild Wars 2 not having an end game? Oh I see, you conveniently forget to quote the stuff that proves you wrong. I get it.

The game was advertising as having no end game and devs said directly what you’d be doing at level cap is pretty much the same stuff you’d be doing while leveling.

I didn’t just prove my point. I proved you only listen to what the devs say when they don’t deliver on their “promises”. But you ignore their promises if it suits your convenience to do so.

haviz.1340:

Vayne.8563:

First of all, the same sorts of things you see on this forum, you see on other forums. Just look at Guild Wars 2 guru if you don’t believe me. There’s negativity on forums everywhere…in most MMOs, not just Guild Wars 2.

But people really were complaining about not having anything to do. The legendary wasn’t worth going for, because it was too much of a grind for the average person, and they’d hit level 80 run some dungeons and that was it.

Remember back then there were no guaranteed daily rares from world bosses, dungeons didn’t drop the same kind of loot, even, there were no Scarlet invasions. End game back then if you were a PvE’er were dungeon runs (fractals didn’t exist either) and running around Orr doing the event chains.

For a lot of people, they were farming, but for what? They already had the highest stats…and not everyone cares about skins (my sons for example).

Is it better now? You have to run like a mindless drone jumping from temple to temple, chop some saplings, use epic crafting station and then what exactly? There’s no content so why did anet in its infinite wisdom give us gear grind without a meaningful content? Is that some kind of ultimate “innovation” of stupidity in design?

The problem with stuff like this is to define meaningful content. People usually call dungeons or raids meaningful content. There’s a whole lot of people who consider dungeons and raids meaningless content, myself included. I don’t care for dungeons, I don’t care about dungeons. To me the content they’ve included is MORE meaningful than the content you want.

This is all about killing stuff on a screen and getting rewarded for it. At the end of the day, that’s all most MMOs are. So you like your killing in an instance, with all sorts of like tricks that make it “hard”., and I like my killing in the open world.

The difference is, I don’t go around posting about how your content is meaningless, while you claim my content is.

Erick Alastor.3917:

Vayne.8563:

Nope, the forum went belly up, so there’s nothing there anymore. It was gw2forum.com though, if you’re interested. And I don’t really care if you believe me or not. Your belief is not required to make something true or not true. There were enough people on these forums to remember how many threads there were about nothing to do at 80. I’m not making it up and if you don’t want to believe me, that’s perfectly fine. I’m happy with that.

No, I won’t show a friends list screenshot, because there are people in these forums immature enough to harass my friends. I’ve already been annoyed in game by people on these forums (which is fine because they’re annoying me, not anyone else). I wouldn’t subject anyone else on my friends list to some of the people who post here.

Again, if you don’t believe me, it doesn’t matter. It doesn’t change the truth one iota.

Indeed my belief is not required, but showing proofs of what you say it’s another matter if you want to clarify your point of view to the readers.
I don’t know anything about your forum, but I remember that in this forum there were VP whiners, but also a lot of people that suggested them to change their minds because this was not a WoW clone.
And about your friendlist, do as I did, no one can be arrassed in that way

First of all, the same sorts of things you see on this forum, you see on other forums. Just look at Guild Wars 2 guru if you don’t believe me. There’s negativity on forums everywhere…in most MMOs, not just Guild Wars 2.

But people really were complaining about not having anything to do. The legendary wasn’t worth going for, because it was too much of a grind for the average person, and they’d hit level 80 run some dungeons and that was it.

Remember back then there were no guaranteed daily rares from world bosses, dungeons didn’t drop the same kind of loot, even, there were no Scarlet invasions. End game back then if you were a PvE’er were dungeon runs (fractals didn’t exist either) and running around Orr doing the event chains.

For a lot of people, they were farming, but for what? They already had the highest stats…and not everyone cares about skins (my sons for example).

Erick Alastor.3917:

Vayne.8563:

It has to do with the absence of a persistent world…at least that’s how most of the MMO sites define it, and it’s the definition I’ve been working with for a long time. A lobby game isn’t an MMORPG to many, many people. It’s a lobby game.

In order to really be a MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER RPG it has to allow massive amounts of people to play together at the same time. Twelve isn’t that massive.

Untrue, due to its changing nature all we can say about a mmorpg is that, in order to be such, a lot of players need just to interact together, and this was possible even in gw1.
Then you can argue as much as you like, but facts shows that here in gw2 you can have events like tequila where even if a lot of players are virtually in the same place spamming skills they are literally in a non-lieu.
Where is the community here?
A right running in circle in frostgorge.

“Just to remember:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XePbxNS78AY”

No one is saying that Guild Wars 2 isn’t a true MMO. All I’m saying is Guild Wars 1 wasn’t a true MMO. Anet has acknowledged that themselves, so if you want to argue, feel free to argue with them.

I don’t know anyone who would say Guild Wars 2 wasn’t a true MMO.

Ashen.2907:

Vayne.8563:

Ashen.2907:

Erick Alastor.3917:

fellyn.5083:

So sorry. We’ll use Anets definition.

GW1 was one of if not the first b2p CORPG games in the NA market.

And who cares anyways? It’s a game that a lot of people play(ed) online with other people.

This time I’m with fellyn, CORPG is just a silly acronym that anet invented to justify the supposed impossibility to reply GW1 experience with GW2.
Why is GW1 a CORPG and Vindictus an MMORPG?
Bullkitten, corpg simply don’t exist.
If we have to take in consideration the definition of CORPG then even GW2 is a CORPG, we have instanced areas, the world is not fully open and we have overflows, how many people have to fight together in the same zone to be called MMORPG? No one knows, because no one setted such number.

Agreed.

Anet’s top guy could choose to call his new kitten, “Puppy,” and it would still be a cat.

It has to do with the absence of a persistent world…at least that’s how most of the MMO sites define it, and it’s the definition I’ve been working with for a long time. A lobby game isn’t an MMORPG to many, many people. It’s a lobby game.

In order to really be a MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER RPG it has to allow massive amounts of people to play together at the same time. Twelve isn’t that massive.

In order for something to define something else the first something itself must be defined. If the number of players defines (or is a defining aspect) of the genre then the number must be defined exactly. It is not and so that aspect does not define the genre.

When I played GW1 it allowed me to play with 1100% more people than I had ever played with in a PC game. It seemed pretty massive to me. I have played other games (COH for example) where I could not find more than one or two other people in game. I don’t think that it stopped being an MMORPG just because multiplayer options were limited. Interesting thought. Would some servers of an MMORPG stop being MMORPGs while others retained that label due to population levels and the inability of some servers, or even certain time periods, to provide massive multiplayer experiences ? Can a game be both an MMORPG and not an MMORPG at the same time ?

Except that long before Guild Wars 1, players were playing with hundreds of people at the same time, so Guild Wars 1’s 12 player instances (and there were only two of those, most of the game was 8 player), couldn’t be considered massively multiplayer.

Your personal experience doesn’t change what the industry defines itself but what’s out on the market.

I mean WoW with it’s open world released before Guild Wars 1 did, and beyond that, Everquest, DAoC and others released before.

Guild Wars 1 was unique in that it was a multiplayer game that didn’t charge a monthly fee, but you couldn’t compare it to existing MMOs. In fact, those with background in MMOs often tried the game, and left because it was instanced. If it’s all instanced, than it’s not a true MMO.

Depends on who you ask….it helps to get the highest level gear you can find. The cheapest way to do this is to get daily laurels, and save them up along with WvW badges, so you can get them from the armorsmith/weaponsmith in WvW, but it’ll take a while.

Ashen.2907:

Erick Alastor.3917:

fellyn.5083:

So sorry. We’ll use Anets definition.

GW1 was one of if not the first b2p CORPG games in the NA market.

And who cares anyways? It’s a game that a lot of people play(ed) online with other people.

This time I’m with fellyn, CORPG is just a silly acronym that anet invented to justify the supposed impossibility to reply GW1 experience with GW2.
Why is GW1 a CORPG and Vindictus an MMORPG?
Bullkitten, corpg simply don’t exist.
If we have to take in consideration the definition of CORPG then even GW2 is a CORPG, we have instanced areas, the world is not fully open and we have overflows, how many people have to fight together in the same zone to be called MMORPG? No one knows, because no one setted such number.

Agreed.

Anet’s top guy could choose to call his new kitten, “Puppy,” and it would still be a cat.

It has to do with the absence of a persistent world…at least that’s how most of the MMO sites define it, and it’s the definition I’ve been working with for a long time. A lobby game isn’t an MMORPG to many, many people. It’s a lobby game.

In order to really be a MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER RPG it has to allow massive amounts of people to play together at the same time. Twelve isn’t that massive.