Guild Wars 2

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

Vayne.8563:

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

Siphaed.9235:

(entitlement much?)

Oh you are one of those people? Seriously do people even know what entitled means these days? Lately everyone who even dares to voice their opinions and criticize the game gets immediately accused of feeling entitled, seriously…. It’s so kitten infuriating. It’s used so often that I actually find it offensive.

This thread gives the perfect example, someone finds anet’s exposition “Underwhelming” and is immediately accused of feeling entitled. Seriously stop this nonsense already.

It’s called CRITICISM.

Siphaed.9235:

And, this also gives a bit more details on the insight to their Living World process and the game’s design strategy.

It showed us absolutely nothing… N-O-T-H-I-N-G (a pronoun denoting the absence of anything) that we didn’t know yet. (except for the short preview)

I wouldn’t have used the word entitled. I would use the word naive.

This wasn’t a presentation to Guild Wars 2 fans who haunt forums. It was a presentation to people who have might have never bought the game and who might want to at a convention.

Companies have target audiences for their messages. This forum was NOT the target audience of this presentation. Of course it was underwhelming. It wasn’t meant to give YOU information, it was meant to give information to people who knew nothing or next to nothing about the game.

So entitled is probably the wrong word. It doesn’t mean, however, that people that are complaining that a presentation to the general public doesn’t contain stuff for them are in the right.

That I can agree with. My main gripe with the presention was how they dodged almost every question.

They can’t answer questions on matters they haven’t decided on yet. They’re talking about stuff.

I have the same problem with my kids. Where are we going on vacation. Well, we haven’t decided. I can’t give you an answer…but nothing is off the table.

What else should I say? Disneyworld? I just don’t know.

I don’t think Anet has definite long term plans (which is part of their problem) and they certainly don’t want to talk about stuff early in case it changes. Have you ever seen how this community treats a change?

I have different conversations with friends.

What’s new in the game. The living story. This week we’re fighting T’quatl. It’s a pretty epic dragon battle. Next week, there’s a new dungeon path coming into the game.

It’s not about what’s gone, it’s about what’s coming. You’re always two weeks away from something new…and you never know what it’s going to be.

To me that’s a selling point.

The living story content, usually anyway, takes a day or two. You have two weeks to do it. If you’re really stressed about it, follow the Dulfy guide and it’s usually pretty fast.

But more, they’ve been tailoring the living story lately to have various goals. For example…I didn’t bother as much with the Queen’s Gauntlet and stayed with the Jubilee achievment. At the end I got the meta for the Queens’ Gauntlet too, without even facing Liadri.

They’re making it so that most people CAN get the achievements.

Most recently they have dailies that count to the meta.

It’s easier now to get the meta than it’s ever been.

Cactus.2710:

Vayne.8563:

Nice opinion piece…which is pretty much just that. A very long opinion piece, but you blow it at the end.

You say this could be avoided,. but you don’t really know that. It’s pure conjecture. I’m not sure you’d said anything here that hasn’t been said in countless threads.

LOL. Do you even read the stuff you post? If what he said has been stated previously in “countless threads”, maybe … just maybe … it goes beyond pure conjecture and maybe … just maybe … a lot of it could indeed have been avoided if ANet had just taken all that ’countless" feedback seriously.

Countless threads? You can’t count them? Are you sure?

More than a thousand threads? I’m sure you can count up to a thousand. It doesn’t even take that long.

Anet has metrics. Threads are very nice, but you know…they’re just that…threads. And people in those negative threads sometimes disagree with the threads.

And MMORPG forums are usually cesspools of complaint no matter how well a game is doing.

How many complaints are troll threads too, because I’ve seen a few of those (though I agree this one is not).

Complaints on forums are nothing to get excited about. They sure as hell don’t guarantee a majority opinion.

alcopaul.2156:

Vayne.8563:

alcopaul.2156:

Vayne.8563:

alcopaul.2156:

Vayne.8563:

alcopaul.2156:

why are you comparing A.NET manifesto to the Communist Manifesto? Communist manifesto is composed of utopic ideals. A.NET manifesto is not (basically saying that A.NET does not making grindy games). Proof that A.NET manifesto is not utopia is GW1 and A.NET didn’t live up to their manifesto in GW2.

No. I’m explaining what a manifesto IS. A statement of ideals. They had an ideal. They tried to live up to the ideal. The ideal went south when real life kicked in. I’m not sure why this is so hard to understand.

and im saying that the communist one is composed of utopian ideals and the a.net manifesto is composed of not utopian ideals..

You’d be wrong. The Anet manifesto is composed of utopian ideas for what an MMO should be. It’s all about context.

And then when you get into the world and it’s not the ideal, you’re disappointed.

it’s not utopian because a real life example that lived up to the manifesto has already been made and existing for more than half a decade already. Guild Wars 1.

The manifesto is to reaffirm their ascendancy from Guild Wars 1 legacy and continue that to Guild Wars 2.

Call it a utopian manifesto if there was no benchmark predecessor and Guild Wars 2 was started from this utopian ideal that they just recently crafted.

It was an MMO manifesto and Guild Wars 1 wasn’t an MMO.

They specifically said that all that we loved in GW1 will be in GW2. That is not utopia.

They implied that GW2 will not be grindy. Not utopia.

But i take it back. Since the manifesto isn’t concurrent with reality (e.g. guild wars 2 is grindy, they didn’t bring all that we loved in guild wars 1 in gw2), that makes the manifesto utopian itself. The Manifesto is INDEED a manifesto.

yeah you’re right, hats off to you.

No one, as far as I know, disageed with the Guild Wars 1 line being wrong. This is not Guild Wars 1. However, I think anyone who stopped to think about it would have seen marketing at work. Simply put, everything WHO loved in Guild Wars 1.

Did everyone in Guild Wars 1 love the same stuff? There might be stuff I hated that you loved (I can almost guarantee that’s true).

By the same token, we KNEW, long before release, that skills would be tied to weapons and you’d have a lot less of them. That there would be no healers. This wasn’t something Anet kept a secret.

So if you loved healers and skill variety from Guild Wars 1, and you’re saying you didn’t know that wasn’t going to be in the game, I’d say you didn’t do any research at all, because Anet was very clear about what would and wouldn’t be in the game.

The Manifesto is a 5 minute video made 2 years before the game came out. You’d think that during those 2 years someone might have looked into the game a little more deeply.

darkace.8925:

Vayne.8563:

Or people would have viewed the manifesto in the light that I did when I first saw it, and expected what was possible within the context of both technology and what the players would allow/demand.

And you’re once again – for what feels like the thousandth time – making it sound like the players rose up in a unified rabble, pitchforks and torches brought to bear, and physically forced ArenaNet to abandon the ideals they had when they made this game. They didn’t. It’s on ArenaNet, not the players. They were faced with a choice, and they chose to go with “money > ideals” over “ideals > money”.

And before you drop your usual “they needed to make money or the game would have been shut down” reply (forgive me for the hyperbole), let me remind you that anything you say in this regard is purely speculative; none of us have any data to prove one decision or the other was better for the game’s long-term financial well-being.

Vayne.8563:

I still say that any one of you, given the same situation, might have ended up doing the very same things Anet did. It’s so easy to be a back seat developer.

Believe it or not, there actually are people in the industry who are interested in making fun games…games they themselves enjoy playing. ArenaNet used to be this way; that’s why vanilla GW2 is great. But I don’t think even you would argue the folks at ArenaNet consider breaking 150 pinatas, collecting 150 kites, riding in 30 balloons, finding 30 dragon scales scattered across three zones, or charging Quartz Crystals at a rate of one per day to be fun.

I didn’t say they needed the money or they’d be shut down. I said if you made a game, and people stopped playing it in numbers, keeping in mind that Anet has those numbers and YOU DO NOT, then you don’t know what you’d do, but I strongly suspect you’d try to save your game.

Do you know the numbers? You’re making it sound like Anet glibbly said, screw it, I’m making this change. I’m relatively sure it didn’t happen like that. There was no reason for that to happen.

They had a reason. You don’t have to accept it. It doesn’t make it untrue.

Xcom.1926:

MMOs are not for you. And yes when Anet said “Non-MMO players will like this MMO” they lied. It comes with everything from other MMOs. It has the grind, the dailies, gear progression etc.

I don’t like other MMOs and I like Guild Wars 2. There are others I know in the same boat. I’m not sure what that makes your statement, but I wouldn’t use the word lie, just because someone is mistaken.

alcopaul.2156:

Vayne.8563:

alcopaul.2156:

Vayne.8563:

alcopaul.2156:

why are you comparing A.NET manifesto to the Communist Manifesto? Communist manifesto is composed of utopic ideals. A.NET manifesto is not (basically saying that A.NET does not making grindy games). Proof that A.NET manifesto is not utopia is GW1 and A.NET didn’t live up to their manifesto in GW2.

No. I’m explaining what a manifesto IS. A statement of ideals. They had an ideal. They tried to live up to the ideal. The ideal went south when real life kicked in. I’m not sure why this is so hard to understand.

and im saying that the communist one is composed of utopian ideals and the a.net manifesto is composed of not utopian ideals..

You’d be wrong. The Anet manifesto is composed of utopian ideas for what an MMO should be. It’s all about context.

And then when you get into the world and it’s not the ideal, you’re disappointed.

it’s not utopian because a real life example that lived up to the manifesto has already been made and existing for more than half a decade already. Guild Wars 1.

The manifesto is to reaffirm their ascendancy from Guild Wars 1 legacy and continue that to Guild Wars 2.

Call it a utopian manifesto if there was no benchmark predecessor and Guild Wars 2 was started from this utopian ideal that they just recently crafted.

It was an MMO manifesto and Guild Wars 1 wasn’t an MMO.

champ.7021:

Vayne.8563:

I still say that any one of you, given the same situation, might have ended up doing the very same things Anet did. It’s so easy to be a back seat developer.

Its very difficult to prove this, since we dont know all of anet’s intentions. This is a very invalid assumption

Well, we either take their intention at face value or we don’t. I was born in a country where people were innocent until proven guilty. I’ve seen Anet launch a game that pretty much tallied with the manifesto, but ended up getting changed due to lack of participation on the side of players.

You can see whatever you want to see. It’s all perception.

Eurhetemec.9052:

Vayne.8563:

Dynamic events take a lot more work to create than traditional quests. How many events would Anet have to create to make all that happen?

A lot, sure, but wouldn’t that be worth it?

This isn’t something people are demanding, Vayne, this is something that would be nice for the future, nice for new areas and so on. I’d really like to see it.

Sure it’s something people are demanding. The question is how many people.

I’m in the boat with people who’d like this sort of thing…a lot. But I also realize that my play style is not as common as some others. For me to insist effort be put into something, I’d first have to believe the majority would want/benefit from it. I don’t really think that’s the case.

I’d love it if this game had no vertical progression, no grind and more open world content that makes you think…unfortunately, I don’t think the majority of players want that (even if the majority of people who post to forums do).

champ.7021:

maybe anet titled it a manifesto so that if they didnt follow up it didnt look so bad…. they could just point to communism and say “that didnt work out either!!!”

Or people would have viewed the manifesto in the light that I did when I first saw it, and expected what was possible within the context of both technology and what the players would allow/demand.

I still say that any one of you, given the same situation, might have ended up doing the very same things Anet did. It’s so easy to be a back seat developer.

Nice opinion piece…which is pretty much just that. A very long opinion piece, but you blow it at the end.

You say this could be avoided,. but you don’t really know that. It’s pure conjecture. I’m not sure you’d said anything here that hasn’t been said in countless threads.

alcopaul.2156:

Vayne.8563:

alcopaul.2156:

why are you comparing A.NET manifesto to the Communist Manifesto? Communist manifesto is composed of utopic ideals. A.NET manifesto is not (basically saying that A.NET does not making grindy games). Proof that A.NET manifesto is not utopia is GW1 and A.NET didn’t live up to their manifesto in GW2.

No. I’m explaining what a manifesto IS. A statement of ideals. They had an ideal. They tried to live up to the ideal. The ideal went south when real life kicked in. I’m not sure why this is so hard to understand.

and im saying that the communist one is composed of utopian ideals and the a.net manifesto is composed of not utopian ideals..

You’d be wrong. The Anet manifesto is composed of utopian ideas for what an MMO should be. It’s all about context.

And then when you get into the world and it’s not the ideal, you’re disappointed.

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

Siphaed.9235:

(entitlement much?)

Oh you are one of those people? Seriously do people even know what entitled means these days? Lately everyone who even dares to voice their opinions and criticize the game gets immediately accused of feeling entitled, seriously…. It’s so kitten infuriating. It’s used so often that I actually find it offensive.

This thread gives the perfect example, someone finds anet’s exposition “Underwhelming” and is immediately accused of feeling entitled. Seriously stop this nonsense already.

It’s called CRITICISM.

Siphaed.9235:

And, this also gives a bit more details on the insight to their Living World process and the game’s design strategy.

It showed us absolutely nothing… N-O-T-H-I-N-G (a pronoun denoting the absence of anything) that we didn’t know yet. (except for the short preview)

I wouldn’t have used the word entitled. I would use the word naive.

This wasn’t a presentation to Guild Wars 2 fans who haunt forums. It was a presentation to people who have might have never bought the game and who might want to at a convention.

Companies have target audiences for their messages. This forum was NOT the target audience of this presentation. Of course it was underwhelming. It wasn’t meant to give YOU information, it was meant to give information to people who knew nothing or next to nothing about the game.

So entitled is probably the wrong word. It doesn’t mean, however, that people that are complaining that a presentation to the general public doesn’t contain stuff for them are in the right.

alcopaul.2156:

why are you comparing A.NET manifesto to the Communist Manifesto? Communist manifesto is composed of utopic ideals. A.NET manifesto is not (basically saying that A.NET does not making grindy games). Proof that A.NET manifesto is not utopia is GW1 and A.NET didn’t live up to their manifesto in GW2.

No. I’m explaining what a manifesto IS. A statement of ideals. They had an ideal. They tried to live up to the ideal. The ideal went south when real life kicked in. I’m not sure why this is so hard to understand.

TooBz.3065:

@Vayne,

Sorry but I disagree with you. The game is about all the parts they’ve added to it. It’s about WvW, Fractals, Dungeons, Open world PvE, living story, tPvP, it’s now also about vertical progression.

It’s ok for someone who loves fractals to be upset that they get no love. If ANet added content specifically to woo some types of gamers, they should be expected to support those gamers.

But it’s not JUST about Fractals. That’s my point. It’s like my ex wife who was a very picky eater. No matter what restaurant we went to, she complained about the selection. The problem was very rarely the menu.

Anet didn’t make Fractals. They made Guild Wars 2 of which Fractals is a tiny, tiny part. And if people want to live in that tiny tiny part, that’s fine. But if they want the company to make the game so that they can never leave that tiny tiny part (Fractals isn’t WvW…it’s not an entire play style, it’s a single series of mini dungeons), then that’s their prerogative.

If it’s so painful, the people who ONLY play Fractals and want to do nothing else will leave. Most of those people have probably already left, anyway.

haviz.1340:

Vayne.8563:

A 40th level fractal isn’t significantly different from a 20th level fractal. The bosses have more health. The agony resistence goes up. It’s the same thing.

I wouldn’t call a 40th level fractal different from a 20th level fractal as far as content goes. Someone can see all the fractals, each individual one, and experience the idea of it by staying under level 20, or even under level 10.

Content is same but the difficulty level is higher. It’s like a version of hard mode from gw1. And it is significant different because at higher levels you actually have to use the thing between your ears. Spamming autoattacks doesn’t work so well.

They just get more challenging. If you want to do that stuff, get the gear to do it. If it’s too much work, don’t do it. Simple as that.

I want to get a gear. The problem is it requires from me to spend some quality time with the most brainless and mind-numbing activities I have ever seen in whole game industry. Simple as that.

It doesn’t take as long as you’re pretending it does. And you know, I’ve done fractals in the 20s. The kind of content you want really really isn’t what this game was about.

Hey, I want to repeat the same stupid crap over and over again, because it’s harder. Well you know…this game was supposed to be about a living breathing world. It’s not a raiding environment and was never really meant to be.

Because of players like you Anet is adding harder content, but it’s not necessary harder INSTANCED content? Why? Because instances aren’t IN the living breathing world.

I’m not saying you shouldn’t want the game you want…but I can’t think of what part of the advertising convinced you that this would be that game.

haviz.1340:

Galen Grey.4709:

can you do level 40 fractals in rares? Can you do level 10 fractals in rares yes!

why is that what does level 40 fractals have different then a level 10 fractal?

Mostly AR

I dont know whats so confusing about that? Arenanet said it from day 1. They dont want to do any content thats gated to players unless they have specific gear. That means that any content they release has to be done with any tier of gear you have which in turns it makes it very difficult to have really hard content. AR was the solution to that problem. And weather you like it or not that difficulty exists thanks to verticial progression of the Gear AR resistance compared to the fractal AR.

I see. I’ve been arguing this whole time with someone who has no clue how fractals works. Kudos to you. AR is the least what makes levels 40 and 10 different.

A 40th level fractal isn’t significantly different from a 20th level fractal. The bosses have more health. The agony resistence goes up. It’s the same thing.

I wouldn’t call a 40th level fractal different from a 20th level fractal as far as content goes. Someone can see all the fractals, each individual one, and experience the idea of it by staying under level 20, or even under level 10.

They just get more challenging. If you want to do that stuff, get the gear to do it. If it’s too much work, don’t do it. Simple as that.

haviz.1340:

Galen Grey.4709:

But I am sorry you’re not the only player in the game and for sure they shouldnt design the game based on your likes and nothing else.

do you think the game would benefit if they remove everything except for fractals? cause I Sure wouldnt even though thats what interests you.

I’m sorry but dungeon/fractal runners had no meaningful content since last November. And I don’t ask dear anet to design game around me but with consideration of me and other like-minded individuals. Right now, there is only one group of players that’s being considered. Other groups like dungeon/fractal runners and pvp players are either completely or mostly ignored. I’m sure people like you enjoy what anet does but it doesn’t satisfy other people.

People who don’t consider temporary content content are simply wrong. The content may not still be here, but there has been more than one temporary dungeon in that time frame and they’ve been around for a couple of weeks at a time.

You don’t have the content NOW, but you have had the content.

And people who limit themselves to one content type are never going to have enough content no matter what.

haviz.1340:

The idea that you have 153 pages of white knighting every stupid design decision of our dear developers is at least amusing to me.

Glad I’m entertaining you. But where you see a stupid design decision, I see other things. Sometimes it’s a compromise and sometimes it’s a design decision that annoys a certain percentage of the playerbase while catering to another. Gamers are very self-centered. Everything that doesn’t fit their play style is a stupid decision and everything that fits their play style is brilliant.

I sincerely doubt any developer could make decisions that a percentage of their player base wouldn’t find stupid.

haviz.1340:

TheDaiBish.9735:

Ascended gear is required for higher level Fractals. There’s nothing stopping players who don’t want Ascended from actually experiencing the different Fractals.

Why fractal runners are forced to chop down wood in orr to be able to run higher levels? Does that make any sense to you? If ascended gear is only required for fractals it should be obtainable only in fractals or at least also in fractals. Weapon boxes are not something anyone with more brain cells than amoeba would consider a solution.

It makes sense to me. Because people who do nothing but run dungeons, pretty much don’t contribute to the game Anet was trying to design with a living breathing world. The fractals were a bone thrown to grinders, like ascended weapons, nothing more.

The idea that you can just seclude yourself in a fractal and do nothing else ever and expect to progress is ludicrous.

I like this game but I’m ONLY going to do a fractal.

Anyway, a high level fractal runner can run all the fractals they want, get the money to buy mats and never chop down anything.

They’d just need to run a lot more fractals.

There’s a woman in my guild. She doesn’t like jumping puzzles, dungeons or PvP…then complains she doesn’t have enough money for repairs and waypoint costs. I don’t say anything to her (because she’s very nice) but to me, it makes no sense.

The game is a game, with goals. If you want the goals, you play the game. Playing one aspect of the game isn’t really playing the game.

Dynamic events take a lot more work to create than traditional quests. How many events would Anet have to create to make all that happen?

Farran.3607:

I never understood the obsession with mounts.

Ok, so you have a large cat you can ride on while I have the basic horse or something. So?

To me, mounts are another way to customize your character and differentiate. Some of my characters would want a more graceful mount, some a more powerful/scary looking mount. It’s like a new outfit. I don’t care about getting around…I care about what mount my character would choose.

And, of course, it’s another thing to collect. Sorta like big minis. lol

I’m not a hipster. I’ve played many other MMOs and generally don’t like them…some right away, some over time. Even Guild Wars 2 is an MMO I might not like over time, but so far I can live with the changes being made.

The thing is, if something in another MMO ruined that MMO for me, why would I want it here? If something draws the type of player to the MMO I don’t enjoy playing with…why would I want it here.

It hardly makes me a hipster.

champ.7021:

Yeah ive kind of moved to your side of the argument that we shouldnt keep bringing up the manifesto because thats stupid as kitten. But that doesnt mean we shouldnt ask for less gear grind we should just stop saying Anet lied because if you say that they are less likely to listen and even less likely to change because that would prove they were lying.

The whole communist thing was me nickel and diming

I would go into it more but that would be for another time. I know cuba has problems but i think there are many good aspects to it. I havent looked into it that much recently that documentary was a couple years old, but i think that it showed a much needed perspective of cuba as most American articles and such, although not entirely wrong, usually paint a negative picture of it.

I agree with you. I WANT people to ask for less gear grind. I just want them to stop using the manifesto as the reason to ask for it. Each year that passes makes it less and less of an argument.

Make GOOD arguments for less gear grind. Say it’s not fun. Say it’s not good for people who are casual. Say that it’s making the game more like work and you don’t enjoy it. And that if it becomes too much work you’ll leave.

That’s how I feel. I understand why they did it, but I want it contained. I don’t want more of it.

I could live with this game if this is the highest tier of gear we get. Beyond that…I don’t know.

champ.7021:

Vayne.8563:

Did the Communist Manifesto live up to what Karl Marx wrote?

Yes the communist manifesto lived up to what karl marx wrote…because he wrote it lol
im guessing you were trying to say “did communism/communists live up to karl marx’s ideals” the answer is no because his ideology (although the communist manifesto is titled communist) was actually marxism, while communism was more of an oligarchical marxism (in a way or rather a monarchy) and they didnt fully get rid of classes.
Also you shouldnt judge communism solely on SU and other countries. In cuba it actually works quite well although they claim they are socialist. I forget the name of this documentary but oliver stone went to talk to castro and some of the things you see are quite unexpected, in a good way.

In Cuba it doesn’t really work quite well, I’ve read quite a bit about Cuba and there are many issues, including their recent push to become more capitilist and relaxing some of their laws. Interesting article about it recently in Time Magazine.

And yes, you phrased it better than I did. Karl Marx wrote something idealistic that can’t exist in the real world. The Anet devs had some issues getting their stuff to work in the real world.

It was three years ago, deal with it.

If you’re focused on getting skins, the Living Story looks like an excuse to add stuff to the gem shop. If you’re not focused on skins, the Living Story is a way to get achievement points, which some people like to get and others don’t.

I don’t do all the LS, because if I did, I’d go crazy. I do the stuff I want to do. I wanted to do T’quatl and I did him. I don’t see any tie in between T’quatl in the gem store, unless you want to count the minis that don’t even count to your mini achievement. Big deal. Doesn’t seem like I have to buy that stuff to enjoy the game. If Anet wants to put it out and people do buy it, it funds that game. How does that affect my game play.

But I didn’t end up killing Liadri. That was too solo for my game play style. I didn’t want to sit there and bang my head against the wall to complain. I’d rather do dungeons or temples or whatever with the guild.

LS isn’t you do it or you don’t. It’s a range of options and you can do the parts that interest you.

I don’t know, I’ve never seen ANY manifesto, by ANYONE that has been lived up to. Ever.

A manifesto is more than just a statement of intent. It’s a statement of ideals. Did the Communist Manifesto live up to what Karl Marx wrote?

It’s something you strive for, not something you necessarily attain. They started working from this basis that this is what we want to do. This is what we want to accomplish. That’s what a manifesto is.

You don’t necessarily attain it. All these quibbles like a people calling out a fully branching personal storyline. Compared to other MMOs when the manifesto was made, that was accomplished. Unless you’re saying that in WoW your human warrior has a different story than my human warrior.

This whole nickle and diming word for word in a manifesto is not only pointless, but counterproductive.

Ideals don’t always work so well in the real world. Sometimes, you have to compromise to stay in business. Anet felt they had to. If you don’t feel they had to you should invest your millions of dollars and your five years into a game and see how you react when people stop playing it, which was what was happening last November.

It was too early for them to be losing the numbers they were losing BEFORE the advent of ascended gear.

They made a compromise that many hated and many left. But I’m sure in their mind, they believed they saved the game. Because if only those people who left ended up staying, the game wouldn’t have been as successful…or so Anet believes (and they probably have better evidence than we do).

I don’t know how anyone can see this as a casually or easily made decision. Sure they didn’t get to do what they wanted to do. That’s life. There are a lot of times that’s happened to me in life as well.

And as long as it’s your millions of dollars and five years on the line, it’s easy to judge.

The game is fun, but has a lot of unnecessary frustrations too. I really wish someone would explain to devs that unnecessary frustration due to lack of thought process causes less people to play you’re game.

I’m still having fun…but I could be having a lot more fun. lol

Pariah.8506:

Draknar.5748:

How can I decrease my fun factor to a more appropriate level, more in-line with the forums’ viewpoints,

You can go play Anet’s previous game and realise what could have been.

I played Guild Wars 1 for five years. It was a great game. In many ways, it was a better game than Guild Wars 2.

And in many ways Guild Wars 2 is a better game than Guild Wars 1.

I know a lot of Guild Wars 1 players have these rose colored glasses, but you know, I felt like I was this ranger, exploring the wild, and I’d come up to a log look at it mournfully, knowing I couldn’t step over it and I had to turn around. Some ranger I was.

Guild Wars 1 was a great game…but it had its deficiencies too. Frankly, if I never sell anything in Spamadan again, it’ll be too soon.

cesmode.4257:

Just an observation before we I continue responding in the thread:

Vayne, you must wake up in the morning, eat your wheaties, drink some gatorade and then whip up some of that ‘vayne-forumposting’ milkshake for the road, man. Hahaha, you are relentless! Its admirable.

The changes I make in the open world are hardly persistant. Yay, I collected destroyer eggs for some Charr in some zone. Great…now what? I notice nothing is different around me.

You’re missing the point….which Rift would prove. If you don’t take back an outpost, that waypoint remains contested. That’s not the case in Rift. If an invasion in Rift takes over an outpost, all by itself, it evaoporates in an hour or so. At least it did when I played. It was like it never happened.

Contrast that to what Guild Wars 2 is doing. You’ve never gone to a map and seen every waypoint contested?

Those changes are NOT permanent, but they are definitely persistent.

MikaHR.1978:

Daywolf.2630:

Vayne.8563:

You say MMOs are a service. I say they’re a form of entertainment. You think you’re more right than I am? People play MMOs to be served, or to be entertained.

Neither, really, but you are much closer. Technically, it’s considered under the category of printed matter such as books are. If you ever got into starting a software business, publishing software, aspects of development, to deal with governments and international protection laws, an MMORPG or any and all software is basically handled as a book.

You were closer to that early on, I wouldn’t use the term ‘entertainment’, I’ve seen mmo projects that were purely edgumicational (hehe). I mean like books are of all sorts, for entertainment and others for educational reasons etc. This is especially true in some small indie projects as well as to well known government agencies (e.g. NASA). But the uniting factor is code, which is printed matter, and thus falls into the category in which books dwell.

Try to play a GW2 without NCSoft providing a service.

Then come back and claim its like a book.

NCSoft is selling you a service.

Its on customer to decide is the service worth paying for or not. And by trends customers dont really find MMOs worth paying for to use it. Yes, it IS entertainment, but seems what MMOs provide entertain less and less people, and even less people want to pay for it.

Its not a matter of what legally that falls under but from business point of view.

Generally, legislation on online, well, anything is very poor, thats why you have them make you sign legally non valid contract (as an example of legislation). But its slowly cathcing up, as now i can sell my account and ANet/NCSoft cant do anything but throw a warm smile at me.

Try to read a book without a publisher providing the service of printing it. And it’s not just a book. Many books are parts of a series, which has continually be published in order for you to keep reading it. The publishing industry has provided a service, look at that.

Fiction, in particular, is still considered a form of entertainment. That’s why big, multimedia entertainment conglomerates (like Sony and Virgin) have been buying up publishing companies. To add to their entertainment portfolio.

Sony also provides people with games. I’m pretty sure it sees those games as a form of entertainment.

You say I’m making less and less sense. I’m so glad there are other people here reading this stuff besides just you.

Pariah.8506:

Vayne.8563:

Branching doesn’t imply anything other than your story changes…

Ok, and how does your story change? Tonn still dies, an enemy mesmer still infiltrates the ranks and the Krait Orb is still retrieved by an unknown force which is apparently as competent as you.

And don’t bring WoW or other RPGs into this, this isn’t about them. This is about what Anet devs said about their game that turned out to be completely untrue, something that can basically be considered false advertising.

It IS about them. You’re not looking at the big picture, only the tiny sliver you want to look at.

Anet made a manifesto that talked about how they want to change the MMO genre. At the point it came out, no MMO really had a personal story. Certainly not a branching one. That’s what Anet did. It moved that aspect further. SWTOR of course did the same thing (possibly much better, but there were plenty of the same complaints in SWToR I’ve heard from people about the story not changing anything in the world).

The point is, the manifesto was showing how Anet was changing the genre. That changed the genre. that’s it.

One of the biggest misconceptions was covered in the clarification posted 3 days after the manifesto was released. Colin was talking about dynamic events and Ree was talking about the personal story. Anet said this loudly and clearly. The link to this is somewhere earlier in the thread.

So Colin was staying stuff you did in the world changed the world (which it does, just not permanently. The changes you make in the open world are persistent but not permanent. By the same token, Ree was talking about the personal story. Yes, the editing to make it look nice and artsy screwed the message a little which is WHY they came out with a clarification.

Now this is the key bit. If everyone’s personal story actually changed the world, think about it, how could that even work in an MMO? I mean I kill a guy and he’s dead for everyone, so you get a different guy? Who has the resources to do something like that? It’s not plausible nor is it reasonable to expect.

The story is going to be the same for everyone because everyone has to end up at the same place. This is how most RPGs work. You end up at the last boss, who you kill. I’m not sure why you expected anything else.

Pariah.8506:

Vayne.8563:

Branching doesn’t mean infinite branching. Even at the end, the story branches. One person decides to go one way and one person decides to go another way. The simplest example is the conversation you have with the one tree. Depending on how that conversation goes, you get one of three different endings.

I’d call that branching by any definition I know.

I have six characters that have finished their personal story completely and I still find personal stories at the end I hadn’t done.

And do tell, what is the consequence of that “choice”?

Branching doesn’t imply anything other than your story changes…which…get this…is different from any MMO that existed prior to that happening. In WoW all human warriors have the same story.

Anyone who didn’t know that all roads led to Zhaitan…well I don’t even know what to say to that.

Most RPGs have one ending, no matter how many roads they have to get there.

Though it doesn’t say so, I’m relatively sure they’re temporary. They probably tie into Halloween which is at the end of next month.

I’m debating between another ascended weapon, or working on a legendary. The problem is the precusor I got is for an underwater weapon…which I’m not going to use as often…but I still like it.

I want to get my huntsman and my artificer crafting to 500, too.

They took it out of EB and made it its own instance so that people in the puzzle aren’t taking up a much needed slot on EB. That was the reason for the change. Which means, the waypoint can’t be in EB, because EB is now another zone.

darkace.8925:

Vayne.8563:

Nope. it’s pretty clear TO YOU. There are people in this thread who have said it’s mostly accurate.

It’s funny how this entire generation grew up with what computer companies say and do, and they STILL don’t get it. Companies make their games sound good. Your job as a consumer is to see what they’re actually saying, instead of what you want to hear.

Most people seem to be lousy at this. You should spend some time watching the show The Gruen Transfer. They talk about stuff like this all the time.

In a general sense, I agree with you. In this case, though (not just the Manifesto, but all of the pre-release propaganda) I think most people would have felt the developers were genuine and passionate about their vision. I’m a guy who can separate the hype from the substance, but even I was caught off guard when things changed directions so quickly after launch.

If you think, really think, a game like this could have been created at all without vision and passion, I’d say you’re wrong.

Vision and passion do NOT preclude compromise.

Maybe it was my time in the publishing industry that has me seeing this differently but I’ve seen publishers and editors make authors change things they were passionate about. Authors are pretty much at the mercy of publishing houses, unless they’re like Stephen King or someone. Then they get a say…but most authors don’t. Authors are a dime a dozen. Slots to publish their work are few and far between. If a publisher wants something changed, you change it.

Does that mean you lack passion about your work or you’re somehow a sell out.

I can think of something I wrote that I had to change that I felt very strongly about. I could have never sold it at all and kept it as it was. It would have been pure, but no one would have ever seen it.

You can be passionate and still compromise. These things aren’t mutually exclusive.

cesmode.4257:

Have No Faith In Me.1840:

Guild Wars 2 takes everything you love about Guild Wars 1

This is the only bit I have a problem with. Because nothing from GW1 exists in GW2.

If anything, the things they did take from Gw1, which were perfectly done, have been done terribly in gw2, like the targeting system (it is garbage in gw2)

RIP GW1, you will be sorely missed.

RIP GW2 August 2012 through November 2012. You will be sorely missed.

Because the game is dead. Good try.

Pariah.8506:

Vayne.8563:

Pariah.8506:

Red Falcon.8257:

The original game launched in August was pretty much what was advertised,

Persistent world – nope

fully branching personalized storyline – nope

event system to get people playing together – nope, zerging isn’t playing together, it’s people doing their own thing who just happened to have the same target

‘When you look at the art in our game, you say “Wow that’s visually stunning, I’ve never seen anything like that before.” And then when you play the combat in our game, you say “Wow that’s incredible, I’ve never seen anything like that.
In most games you go out, and you have really fun tasks occasionally to do. And the rest of the game is this boring grind to get to the fun stuff. I swung a sword, I swung a sword again.’ – This contradicts itself really seeing how the game turned out
In the game world these horrible centaurs are standing around in a field and you get a quest step that says “Go kill ten centaurs”. We don’t think that’s OK. – Apparently, you do.

We don’t want to make the same MMO that everyone else is building – Haha, oh wow
in Guild Wars 2, it’s your world, it’s your story, you affect things around you in a very permanent way. ’ – It feel like I’m taking crazy pills reading this

You’re meeting new people, whom you will then see again. You’re rescuing a village that will stay rescued, then remember you – Unless I turn my back and the event comes rolling around again within 10 seconds. Dear fishermen of Viathan Lake, I think you should just relocate..

Ad I only pulled out the easy ones.

3. Zerging isn’t playing together? I don’t know. I’m playing with other people, even in a zerg. HOWEVER< some of us are in guilds and play with each other all the time doing events. Do you rez people when down in a zerg? Lots of people do. Maybe you don’t knwo what playing together means.

In fact, I’m not sure you’ve played this game at all.

You run up to something and attack it, another person does the same. After it is dead you both go your separate ways without ever having to say a word. Is that playing together in your book? There is negligible actual interaction between players, whether the DPS other people do comes from actual players or from bots or simply out of the sky doesn’t matter. There is no difference between a player DPSing alongside you and an AI filling the player’s place as a DPS dealer.

Vayne.8563:

2. So what makes a storyline FULLY branching or not FULLY branching? Infinite choices? Did you really expect that. It’s a storyline that branches…and it branches quite a lot. I’m not sure why you think it doesn’t live up to that. Maybe you’re reading something into the idea besides that’s being said?

The story didn’t branch out, it converged. It would not have been so if us clicking different things in dialogue options wouldn’t have been promptly forgotten by every character in the game. A Sylvari will have exactly the same dialogue as another character when talking to the Pale Tree about the vision of Orr, your sparring partner and warband your Charr has constructed will quickly be left behind and never ever be relevant or involved again and it doesn’t matter if you’ve helped Crarys and Taegwin with the mirror or Orr in the past, both them and you will be struck by amnesia and act like you’ve never met before should you meet again.
Every so often your character will start with an entirely clean slate disregarding anything they’ve done in the past. And so at those points the story doesn’t branch but converge any and all “choices” – be they made during character creation or later – into one and the same unaltered and unaffected outcome.

Branching doesn’t mean infinite branching. Even at the end, the story branches. One person decides to go one way and one person decides to go another way. The simplest example is the conversation you have with the one tree. Depending on how that conversation goes, you get one of three different endings.

I’d call that branching by any definition I know.

I have six characters that have finished their personal story completely and I still find personal stories at the end I hadn’t done.

Chuo.4238:

ArenaNet is never, ever going to live this down, it appears. And rightly so. I hope people keep shoving the manifesto back in ArenaNet’s face for as long as it takes.

You can quibble all you want – it’s pretty clear that the spirit of the Manifesto is nothing close to what got delivered in GW2.

Nope. it’s pretty clear TO YOU. There are people in this thread who have said it’s mostly accurate.

It’s funny how this entire generation grew up with what computer companies say and do, and they STILL don’t get it. Companies make their games sound good. Your job as a consumer is to see what they’re actually saying, instead of what you want to hear.

Most people seem to be lousy at this. You should spend some time watching the show The Gruen Transfer. They talk about stuff like this all the time.

Balkanwarrior.5132:

Vayne.8563:

xephire.8324:

Vayne.8563:

Skan.5301:

Spiral Architect.6540:

Skan.5301:

inb4 the list comes in showing how it’s actually brand new and not the same as previous content updates.

I’m sure there’s an alarm (with a flashing red light) going off in Vayne’s office about now.

He must be having Internet issues. He’s usually on every thread to lawyer it in case there’s any resistance. I fully expected him to already be here with a boatload of kitten to throw at us.

Nah, nothing you’ve said so far is convincing enough to reply to. Sorry to waste your time.

You just replied…

Sure, but I didn’t reply to their comments about Guild Wars 2. I replied to their comments about me not commenting about their comments. lol

Yeah cause replying just for the sake of protecting dat forum rep is worthy of your time.

Some would say I was enjoying the banter. I don’t care enough about my “rep” to go out of my way to defend it. It’s quite clear that a percentage of forum dwellers don’t like me, and I’m fine with that. Being disliked isn’t the worst thing that can happen to someone in life.

MikaHR.1978:

Vayne.8563:

MikaHR.1978:

Vayne.8563:

champ.7021:

lol i like how vayne says percentages please, then goes on to say “i bet you less than 1%”…
anyways i liked that visual representation mika

I worked in retail, managing a computer store for a long time. The number of games that still have half their user base 8 years on is well well well under 1%. If you don’t believe me, do it this way. Hundreds of games come out every year. Every single year. Eight years on, most games have been long abandoned.

You can check the facts about this if you like but this isn’t quoting a figure. This is just basic common sense.

The same is true in book sales and movie sales. Most books sell 90% of all the copies they’ll ever sell in the first three months. The other 10% of sales are sold over the rest of their lifetime.

Except MMOs are not book but a service.

With your extensive expereience its a wonder you dont now the difference.

MMOs are a form of entertainment. Books are a form of entertainment. Do some research, just for once, and figure it out. Look at ALL the MMOs that are out for 8 years. Every one of them.

Now list ALL the MMOs that have 50% of their userbase left.

I’ll wait here.

So you DONT know difference between a book and a service.

ROFL

And – EvE, i kinda wonder you havent picked that up yet, 10 years and GROWING. No worries, it will sink in one day. There are more but its irrelevant.

What IS relevant that all games YOU think of are EQ/WoW copies, with same results as EQ/WoW.

Keep it coming bro!

But you better wait there rofl

Okay Eve is growing. You’ve named one MMO. Now how many MMOs have existed in that time period.

I think you’ll agree that most of them, practically all of them, have decreased significantly in playerbase 8 years after launch. DAoC, very popular, but with an extremely diminished playerbase 8 years after launch. The player base was well under half what it was during it’s height.

The fact is, you make up stuff and call them facts.

You say MMOs are a service. I say they’re a form of entertainment. You think you’re more right than I am? People play MMOs to be served, or to be entertained.

I think you just like to argue with me because you think it annoys me.

tigirius.9014:

According to some, it’s about getting that new weapon skin, backpack and mini to tide us over until they add some other major ui update or dungeon.

Do you deny that some people love and even live for achievement points? To them this is content. I’m guessing there are more people out there like that then is immediately apparent.

xephire.8324:

Vayne.8563:

Skan.5301:

Spiral Architect.6540:

Skan.5301:

inb4 the list comes in showing how it’s actually brand new and not the same as previous content updates.

I’m sure there’s an alarm (with a flashing red light) going off in Vayne’s office about now.

He must be having Internet issues. He’s usually on every thread to lawyer it in case there’s any resistance. I fully expected him to already be here with a boatload of kitten to throw at us.

Nah, nothing you’ve said so far is convincing enough to reply to. Sorry to waste your time.

You just replied…

Sure, but I didn’t reply to their comments about Guild Wars 2. I replied to their comments about me not commenting about their comments. lol

MikaHR.1978:

Vayne.8563:

champ.7021:

lol i like how vayne says percentages please, then goes on to say “i bet you less than 1%”…
anyways i liked that visual representation mika

I worked in retail, managing a computer store for a long time. The number of games that still have half their user base 8 years on is well well well under 1%. If you don’t believe me, do it this way. Hundreds of games come out every year. Every single year. Eight years on, most games have been long abandoned.

You can check the facts about this if you like but this isn’t quoting a figure. This is just basic common sense.

The same is true in book sales and movie sales. Most books sell 90% of all the copies they’ll ever sell in the first three months. The other 10% of sales are sold over the rest of their lifetime.

Except MMOs are not book but a service.

With your extensive expereience its a wonder you dont now the difference.

MMOs are a form of entertainment. Books are a form of entertainment. Do some research, just for once, and figure it out. Look at ALL the MMOs that are out for 8 years. Every one of them.

Now list ALL the MMOs that have 50% of their userbase left.

I’ll wait here.

haviz.1340:

Vayne.8563:

In which you couldn’t use skills or fight, or play. It was a lobby. Not quite the same thing. All lobby games have lobbies, but you’re not playing the game in them. You’re gathering your group in them.

How’s that relevant? You’re gathering groups in LA as well.

The point remains.

The world persists whether you enter it or not. If you enter the world, you’re not alone there if someone else enters it. You own a dungeon instance if you enter the dungeon. You don’t own a Queensdale instance if you enter Queensdale. It was already there, and therefore, it is persistent. That’s what the word means.

So, Guild Wars 1, zone created for you when you leave an outpost. Not persistent.
Guild Wars 2, zones created which anyone can enter. Persistent.

champ.7021:

lol i like how vayne says percentages please, then goes on to say “i bet you less than 1%”…
anyways i liked that visual representation mika

I worked in retail, managing a computer store for a long time. The number of games that still have half their user base 8 years on is well well well under 1%. If you don’t believe me, do it this way. Hundreds of games come out every year. Every single year. Eight years on, most games have been long abandoned.

You can check the facts about this if you like but this isn’t quoting a figure. This is just basic common sense.

The same is true in book sales and movie sales. Most books sell 90% of all the copies they’ll ever sell in the first three months. The other 10% of sales are sold over the rest of their lifetime.

Skan.5301:

Spiral Architect.6540:

Skan.5301:

inb4 the list comes in showing how it’s actually brand new and not the same as previous content updates.

I’m sure there’s an alarm (with a flashing red light) going off in Vayne’s office about now.

He must be having Internet issues. He’s usually on every thread to lawyer it in case there’s any resistance. I fully expected him to already be here with a boatload of kitten to throw at us.

Nah, nothing you’ve said so far is convincing enough to reply to. Sorry to waste your time.

The living world is really just content releases every two weeks, with an associated set of achievements. Those who like achievement hunting, as a rule, like the living world and those who dont’ like it, don’t like the living world.

Different months have different things.

The biggest objection most people have to the living world is that the content is temporary, which is understandable. It puts pressure on people to log in, which is the point. And despite the opposition, it seems to be working. People seem to be logging in to play.

Is it good? It’s a mixed bag. Different months have different events that are very different. This month, for example, is my least favorite in a long time (but some people seem to like it).

Some of the content is instanced, some of the content is open world, there’s usually a mix.

Right now you have SAB, which is instanced, and the whole Tequatl fight revamp, which is open world.

I like the Teq fight a whole lot more than I like SAB.