I had fun for a few months too and I’m hoping the changes coming in April will give me some extra fun as well. Making it less grindy and better for people will less time won’t go amiss.
They can do it…. there are 3 new legendaries to prove it.
Sure they can, at the expanse of other things. You have no clue what’s going on at Anet. Right now, Anet has made a decision to set aside indefinitely working on further legendaries to end the content drought sooner.
If you took a poll and asked the player base as a whole, not just the guys on reddit, how that would go down, I’m relatively sure most players would approve. Legendary weapons aren’t content for everyone.
Of course they could make the legendary weapons…at the expanse of further delaying content. It’s a bad trade off in my opinion. And it’s still not a scam.
You playing less doesn’t make it a scam. It just makes it something you didn’t like.
It does when certain content was promised and was then paid for. Regardless whatever else has arrived on time, certain content was promised and advertised as being part of HoT, when any of the content that was a selling feature of said expansion is thrown away, that could be argued as a scam. People should not be asked to pay for content that isn’t fully realized or even off the drawing board that can change on a whim overnight.
I did not purchase HoT. I walked away from GW2 and Anet when they wanted money for an expansion that was filled with more promises than actual content. In checking back to see how it’s going, I do not regret my decision at all
I’ve since purchased a different MMO. Anet has tarnished their image for their next expansion already. Regardless what they do now, people will only remember the bad and cancelled content that was promised in a previously paid expansion.
A restaurant advertises a certain dish. For various reasons, months later, they can’t do that dish anymore. Doesn’t matter the reasons. That’s not a scam. Unless you can prove when Anet announced it they had no intention of doing it. Then it would be a scam.
Put it another way. If I go and say to you if you lend me $10 I"ll pay you back and you lend it to me, and then after you lend it to me, my wife divorces me and cleans out my bank account, I might not end up paying you back. But I wasn’t scamming you.
This is called kitten happens. People need to learn the difference.
Will you pre-order the next expansion? [Poll]
in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns
Posted by: Vayne.8563
Silly time to poll people after a major announcement when people are still angry. Some people will stay angry and some people won’t. So yeah….not really the time to post this sort of thing. I’d have waited at least a couple of weeks.
Timing is everything and to be honest I have no issue with OP’s timing. People are mad because of lack of Legendary’s (not me I’ll never invest the time for one) others because the same issues are still issues with game performances. (drops, glitching out doing stories, etc)
I (uh oh I’m about to get blistered) have no problem with letting Legendary’s take a back seat if they are going to fix the ongoing game issues.
Polls are a way for people to release their frustration (like your post about not getting a legendary or Ascended Armor can’t remember which one it was) and provides a little feedback to the developers.
Will they listen, only time will tell….. So I say go forward and make polls if it helps you cope!!!!! WooHoo lol
But the timing makes the poll useless if it gives a false positive.
Let’s say an election is 6 months out and someone takes a poll on who you would vote for, right after a specific scandal.
The poll will very likely not reflect the election results.
Some people will remain angry and some will cool down. So the poll’s results will be inaccurate. People mostly answer questions based on how they’re feeling when they answer a poll.
This poll has little value because if Anet said we have a new expansion for $1 and 12 maps, everyone would buy it.
You’re a bit late to the party with this. Presumably the spring expansion will fix some issues people have with the expansion, though not all of them.
Will you pre-order the next expansion? [Poll]
in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns
Posted by: Vayne.8563
There’s a new expansion coming? What announcement are we talking about?
During the Reddit AMA a lot of questions were answered including the breakdown of who is working on what in general turns. 70 people are working on the next expansion.
Will you pre-order the next expansion? [Poll]
in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns
Posted by: Vayne.8563
Why would anybody pre-order at this point? Beyond that, why would you buy the next expansion on release instead of waiting five months to find out how much of the promised content will actually be delivered and how much will be indefinitely suspended?
Continuity of experience. Many of us play to play with our guilds and I can assure you most of our guild will buy the next expansion. So why should the guild be divided? It’s like saying I go out with friends every week and they’re going to a new restaurant I don’t know if I’ll like or not. Do I not go?
$50 is like a night out, and the new expansion might be cheaper. Is it worth it for me to go hang out with my friends for another year in game.
Sure it is.
I bow to your expertise Vayne.
Everyone ignore my bait and switch comment and please substitute false advertising in its place.
Well if your’e going to complain, you might as well use the right complaint. It’s not like false advertising is noble, right?
There’s a lot wrong with this game right now. Even a white knight like me can see that. The decision to indefinitely delay something to get everything else working is always a crappy decision. But it’s a decision.
It’s the kind of thing that managers have to do from time to time. It’s not great for them and it’s not great for us, that’s my take on it.
I really want to see what the April and July updates bring , before I actually go running for my pitchfork.
Why can’t you unlock gliding? Go do a few events, use some buffs and you’ll have gliding in pretty much no time.
Bait and switch also has to do with the substituting of inferior goods than the one you bought. When parts are missing I would say that that makes the product inferior to the one advertised.
Dude I dealt with this as part of my livlihood. This isn’t some random comment. bait and switch always refers to two different products. You advertise one and try to SWITCH to a different product.
If someone says you’re going to get something and they give it to you with parts removed from it it’s NOT bait and switch. You repeating it doesn’t make it so. The legal dictionary is a far better judge of what bait and switch is than you are.
If they advertise a specific Sony TV and that TV doesnt’ come with something they said it would, that’s false advertising. If a retailer offers a Sony TV and when you come in they just have Samsung and they try to make you buy that and refuse to sell you the Sony, that’s bait and switch.
Bait = 3 new legendary weapons and will be releasing the remaining weapons in small groups at regular intervals until the full set of 16 is added to the game
Switch = We are “stretched too thin” and will have to put legendary weapons on indefinite hold. We do this so we can bring you living, breathing world that everyone can enjoy.
They are paying 70 employees to work on a future expansion. Why is Anet hiring 70 people to work on a future expansion when this one isn’t finished??? They don’t feel the need to make good on the selling points of their CURRENT expansion but they are quite content to leave the 70 employees of the NEW expansion untouched.
Why hasn’t the new expansion been indefinitely put on hold?
Bait and switch involves advertising one product and switching someone to a more expensive different product. That’s the legal definition.
I know what bait means and I know what switch means, but bait and switch as a term has a very specific legal definition, which I guess you’re happy to ignore.
That’s okay be me. But it doesn’t make the rest of your arguments look any stronger.
What’s wrong with say false advertising which is what you’re actually claiming.
Bait – something you put on a hook to catch fish.
Switch – Something you flick to turn on a light.
Bait and Switch – Something you click to turn on a worm.
Terms aren’t necessarily meant to be taken literally.
It was a scam from the first hype and this game will never recover, quit kidding yourselves.
I spent nearly 4k hours in this game, truly entertained. I don’t know what you are talking about.
How many hours in HoT ? Personally i spent 7000 hours in game, but only 4-5 hours
in HoT … so thats why HoT was a scam .. and in the end it was only ok because i
played the game for free so long .. so paying 100€ for HoT was more or less a
present to ANet for the good days in GW2 before HoT.
But I’ve put 200 hours into HoT, and I’ll be putting more after the new Xpac hits and more after the Living Story comes out again.
You playing less doesn’t make it a scam. It just makes it something you didn’t like.
I collect items for other collections. Lots of ascended items on offer.
Funny…. I didn’t know bait and switch was legal
You should look up bait and switch. It’s absolutely not applicable to what’s happening here. False advertising would be closer, but you’d need to prove intent to deceive. Good luck with that.
The expansion is fine except for WvW, which got pushed way back and legendary weapons, which are now put off indefinitely. There’s already an legendary backpack in the game via PvP and the Fractal one will probably be along shortly. The fractal leagues were pushed back too but I’m not thinking people really care about that.
If the WvW beta starts soon and if it’s a success that’s half the battle right there. A lot hinges on the WvW overhaul. Raids have been fairly well received, more work needs to be done on Fractals and my guess is they’ll revert or at least improve dungeon rewards.
Once the living story hits (in July?) very few people will be worried about pushing legendary weapons back indefinitely. Some will, but not enough to affect numbers.
The real issue is that the company wasn’t running as well as it could and they need to get stuff running better sooner, rather than later. Mike O’Brien made a judgement call on what could be cut to make that happen. It was never going to please everyone. It’s definitely a controversial decision, but that doesn’t mean it was a bad one.
April patch should address some of the complaints about HoT (not all of them but some) and we move on from there. Based on how well that patch is received and what’s in it, we can go from there.
The expansion isn’t falling apart, because the stuff it’s missing won’t affect everyone, or even most people.
I really hope for the sake of the game that the WvW beta and the changes to the new zones soothe some ruffled feathers.
Will you pre-order the next expansion? [Poll]
in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns
Posted by: Vayne.8563
Silly time to poll people after a major announcement when people are still angry. Some people will stay angry and some people won’t. So yeah….not really the time to post this sort of thing. I’d have waited at least a couple of weeks.
I do not know, i have the feelling that the expansion was not ready.
Maybe it is just me, but:
Just one pvp map, ok we have the leagues…
The WvW disaster, and thats it…
The personal story is too short, and full of “We will explain you later”…
The masterys are useless in WvW…
The Raid was not avaliable at the begging…
No new Fractals…
Even gliding in all Tyria was after HoT…
Just three legendary weapons…
Ok, yes, the first day of Hot was great, no lag, no crashes, amazing.
I know Guild Wars 2 is a game that always is expanding, and i am love it, but i feel like i was cheated when i bougth the expansion.
I do not want a refound, i want to feel like the game is great again.
Or maybe, it is just me…
Sorry bad english, i am from spain.I’m still trying to figure out how things work in this game, but it’s becoming clear that ANet has a penchant for thinking BIG, but their resources are somewhat limited.
Take the HoT maps, for instance. I know they have their faults, but the complexity of the map designs are incredible! I can only imagine how much work must have gone into developing each one.
Today I learned a little more about the legendary items, and those seem to be the same way. At first I thought they were just fancy skins with the best stats available, but when I heard about the work that goes into designing the story and the journey to acquire these items, I immediately thought of the quality and depth of the HoT maps.
I really hope they can continue to produce that level of quality, but it seems as if they may be overreaching given their available resources. It’s a shame because things like these legendary items and the HoT maps are a huge draw to me – and I’m sure I’m not the only one!
More likely HoT wasn’t well received and they’re working overtime to fix and and until that fix is in and adjusted, they just don’t have the man power. I’m absolutely sure they expected HOT to get a better reception.
Once it didn’t and the fixing started, everything had to get pushed back.
This issue with legendary weapons is it’s one skin and if you don’t like it, you’re out of content. I didn’t like most of the original legendaries. I made 8 of the ones I liked. It’s just too hit and miss.
This is my argument. It’s not like any other requirement for anything else in the game, because raids DO take far far more effort than anything else in the game. And if you don’t enjoy them, then Anet is requiring you to not enjoy the game.
And yet I don’t enjoy them….ankitten ot required to do them.
You are not required to do them….unless you want legendary armor. This is the truth as we know it so far. There are people working on their legendary sets right now…I happen not to be one of them.
You don’t have to agree with I’m saying, but it doesn’t make it any less valid.
I’m working on it right now and I’m forced to “play” or “visit” the new PvE maps EVERY DAY. The raid part of the legendary armor seems to be the easier part. LOL.
But you aren’t forced to be working on them.
I read this as a tongue in cheek reply to those who say they are “forced” to do raids. Especially with the “LOL” art the end.
We’re not forced to do raids, nor play the game at all. But if the rewards that are new and good are mostly now hidden behind raids, that’s where the pressure is. I’ve left games in the past for just that reason.
Forced might be the wrong word, feel free to read it is strongly encouraged or guided by the push of the game company.
Try to put yourself in a casual players place. After the Winter update, we had two things on top of our screen on the right at the same time….PvP leagues and Raids. That’s what the game was giving us.
Are we “forced” to do it? No, not in the literal sense of the word force. It’s too bad people tend to take things literally the first time they read it, because no matter how many times you explain it afterwards, they continue to push their misinterpretation over the actual intended meaning. That’s sort of the whole point of explaining it.
To be clear in the cases where I’ve been using it forced means strongly incentivized. Pressured. Pushed in the direction of.
As I said. You are also “pushed in the direction” to play the PvE open world content if you want to get the legendary armor.
Legendary armor =/= raids.
Legendary armor = raids + open world
That’s how it is right now.
Yes and open world content, generally requires less prep. It doesn’t tend to require grouping (you can do just fine showing up 5 minutes before events. I’m saying that raids have a much higher barrier of entry than any other content in the game.
Most people think casuals make up the bulk of the Guild Wars 2 population. Until now casuals could get legendaries. Sure it would take more time. Sure there were still things that were frustrating, but for some people raids will NEVER happen. No matter how long they have, they will not be able to raid. But they will be able to participate in open world content.
I know people who raid thing everyone can raid…but it’s not true. The amount of hours, for example, you need to put in to world complete is huge. But the number of hours you have to put into world complete pretty much at one time, not so huge.
You don’t have the schedule you life around doing open world PvE content. You do, to to some degree have to schedule your life around raids.
Stat-swapping for ascended already exists…..
I think what’s meant is stat swapping out of combat, not running to the forge to change stats and running back. Crafting a stat change isn’t really the same that at all.
If you think that $50 is barely anything, I envy your life. For alot of people in the world, that’s all they have left at the end of a paycheck, -if that-.
And it has yet to go on sell officially despite it being half a year in. By the time they finally do put HoT on sale, it’ll be time for the next expo and they’ll be giving it away for free as part of that expo just like they did with the core game with HoT.
The PvP situation is identical to what happened with guilds: Adding required content in something that is supposed to be an optional purchase.
Except that it’s already been on sale at authorized dealers for $35 for at least a couple of months now.
If the argument is that “this is locked behind content I don’t want to play,” then this has been in the game for a long time: Since launch. Hall of Monument rewards are exclusive to people who haven’t played Guild Wars 1. You can’t actually ever earn this unless you pay real-life money for those games and purchase them.
Glorious Armor is exclusive to people who play sPvP. If you do not PvP, you will never get this armor. Season 1 had exclusive rewards which might not ever come back. The Green Skins for Super Adventure Box cannot be earned without playing Tribulation Mode. (If this content ever comes back…)
Ascended gear was first added to the game exclusively in Fractals. I played WvW pretty heavily and I knew many players upset by this. Other means of acquiring them were added inevitably.
The argument is skins are fine, as long as they don’t come with functionality. But what happens when functionality starts to change. It’s a different tier of gear, a different color. It’s not an ascended SKIN, it’s a legendary armor which guarantees top stats forever and lets you change stats.
Unique skins have always been in the game. Unique functionality, not so much. And you might argue those functions are no big deal. Maybe they are and maybe they’re not. But as a trend it’s alarming. Because the next functionality they lock behind specific content might very well be something major. It’s a bad thing to do generally.
Vayne you are right, but the Elite Spec are pretty close to pay to win if you ask me.
Okay I’ve said this many times and not a single person has been able to answer me.
Can you name ANY MMORPG, any at all, that isn’t pay to win if you count expansions. I ask this because I can’t. P2W was always mean to refer to cash shops, not expansions.
Take WoW as an example. WoW raises the level cap with every expansion. That is you become far more powerful each time an expansion comes out, including in PvP. This has been true in every MMO I’ve played.
Expansions are sold and people are expected to buy them to continue to playing the game, even in a subscription game.
Now in Guild Wars 2, there’s less P2W than any other MMO because they didn’t raise the level cap and you can still compete with some builds in PvP.
P2W was meant to denote games that sold power in the cash shop that you couldn’t get in game. It never covered an expansion to my knowledge.
If it did, even Guild Wars 1 was pay to win.
Actually you have been answered in the past when you made this point. It was also pointed out that the same wiki that you have used to support your definition of other MMO terms disagrees with your limited definition of pay to win.
WoW’s expansions add character levels. A character who advances in power level via an expansion in WoW is moving on to higher level content, perhaps including a higher PvP tier where characters at the old power cap are not expected to compete.
In GW2 buying and taking advantage of the supposed (Ihave not seen analysis that demonstrates that the elite specs are objectively more powerful so I say, “supposed.”) Power increase via the expansion remain at the same character level as, in direct competition with, those who do not. WoW attempts to seperate the old power level from the new while GW2 expects old, underpoered, chaacters to compete with the new power cap.
I am not claiming that HoT is pay to win because I dont know for a fact that the elite specs are more powerful. But, if they are, the expansion becomes something for which one pays real money for an advantage over those, with whom one is in direct competition, who do not.
And I’ve answered that. Since WoW does have PvP servers, if you happen to be on a PvP server, you are facing people who are higher level than you with no chance at all to beat them in open world PvP. Open World PvP is maps devoted to PvP that all levels can enter and fight on. Therefore WoW is pay to win.
The only way you can prove it’s not is if you can tell me that people that are level 80 can’t fight peopel that are level 70 that don’t have the expansion. But you can’t tell me that, because it’s not true. On a PvP server higher level players can beat up on lower level players, even if they haven’t bought the expansion. That’s the definition of pay to win you’re using, so if you’re using WoW you’re factually wrong.
There are other advantages people get, ev3en brought up in this very thread, a few posts above this one. You can go into higher zones, come back and PvP on your level 70 character that’s twinked out with better gear from having the expansion, again pay to win.
Saying people have answered it only works if the answers actually fits. Saying you’ve answered it and ignoring the places where WOW is pay to win (by this definition which I don’t agree with anyway) is pointless.
What about non PvP servers?
You can still PvP in the open world on PvE servers in Wow. It just doesn’t happen as often, and you have to get lucky or creative to create fights. Well, unless they’ve patched that out in the last 6 years.
I’d forgotten all about this. I remember being a newbie and WoW and getting slaughtered by higher level players in a PvE server. I had no idea what was going on. But you can flag yourself off on as a PvE player.
In know in Rift, I used to get pulled into PvP even on PvE servers accidentally. Hellling someone that was flagged for PvP would put you in PvP flagged mode and if you didn’t have better gear you were toast.
Vayne you are right, but the Elite Spec are pretty close to pay to win if you ask me.
Okay I’ve said this many times and not a single person has been able to answer me.
Can you name ANY MMORPG, any at all, that isn’t pay to win if you count expansions. I ask this because I can’t. P2W was always mean to refer to cash shops, not expansions.
Take WoW as an example. WoW raises the level cap with every expansion. That is you become far more powerful each time an expansion comes out, including in PvP. This has been true in every MMO I’ve played.
Expansions are sold and people are expected to buy them to continue to playing the game, even in a subscription game.
Now in Guild Wars 2, there’s less P2W than any other MMO because they didn’t raise the level cap and you can still compete with some builds in PvP.
P2W was meant to denote games that sold power in the cash shop that you couldn’t get in game. It never covered an expansion to my knowledge.
If it did, even Guild Wars 1 was pay to win.
Actually you have been answered in the past when you made this point. It was also pointed out that the same wiki that you have used to support your definition of other MMO terms disagrees with your limited definition of pay to win.
WoW’s expansions add character levels. A character who advances in power level via an expansion in WoW is moving on to higher level content, perhaps including a higher PvP tier where characters at the old power cap are not expected to compete.
In GW2 buying and taking advantage of the supposed (Ihave not seen analysis that demonstrates that the elite specs are objectively more powerful so I say, “supposed.”) Power increase via the expansion remain at the same character level as, in direct competition with, those who do not. WoW attempts to seperate the old power level from the new while GW2 expects old, underpoered, chaacters to compete with the new power cap.
I am not claiming that HoT is pay to win because I dont know for a fact that the elite specs are more powerful. But, if they are, the expansion becomes something for which one pays real money for an advantage over those, with whom one is in direct competition, who do not.
And I’ve answered that. Since WoW does have PvP servers, if you happen to be on a PvP server, you are facing people who are higher level than you with no chance at all to beat them in open world PvP. Open World PvP is maps devoted to PvP that all levels can enter and fight on. Therefore WoW is pay to win.
The only way you can prove it’s not is if you can tell me that people that are level 80 can’t fight peopel that are level 70 that don’t have the expansion. But you can’t tell me that, because it’s not true. On a PvP server higher level players can beat up on lower level players, even if they haven’t bought the expansion. That’s the definition of pay to win you’re using, so if you’re using WoW you’re factually wrong.
There are other advantages people get, ev3en brought up in this very thread, a few posts above this one. You can go into higher zones, come back and PvP on your level 70 character that’s twinked out with better gear from having the expansion, again pay to win.
Saying people have answered it only works if the answers actually fits. Saying you’ve answered it and ignoring the places where WOW is pay to win (by this definition which I don’t agree with anyway) is pointless.
What about non PvP servers?
But you can’t really take PvP servers out. Games were never pay to win in the non-competitive aspect, because you can’t win something that’s not competitive. No one every really said a game was pay to win, unless there were really hard raids and you needed to buy stuff from the cash shop to get through them. Again raids are considered competitive content. P2W almost never talks about PvE, because PvE isn’t really competitive on most games. That leaves PvP.
Now, on a PvE server, where you’re not PvPing, it’s hardly relevevant whether you have the power, unless you’re talking about the most competitive content. In Guild Wars 2, the most competitive content is raids. But you can’t raid unless you get the expansion so it sort of equals itself out.
But for PvP, that’s the thing. A game is generally considered pay to win if you get advantage over other players in PvP through CASH SHOP purchases. That’s ALWAYS been the definition.
On a PvE server, if you NEVER enter a PVP arena, WOW is not Pay to WIn and NEITHER is Guild Wars 2. Because on the PvE server, which is pretty much the entire open world, there’s no pay to win. Are you suggesting people can’t beat events in Orr or Southsun or the Silverwastes if they don’t buy HOT? That they need those elite specs to do that content?
So if you compare the open world in WOW to the open world in Guild Wars 2, Guild Wars 2 is not pay to win but WoW is because some of the servers DO have open world PvP. You’d compare that, mostly to WvW.
Do the elite specs give you some advantage in WvW. Sure, I guess they probably do. Does having a higher level give you some advantage in WoW in open world PvP? Sure it does. Far more advantage than WvW.
And to be clear, you can also get advantage in those PvP arenas capped at lower levels if you have an expansion in WoW, according to someone in this thread. There’s apparently some way to get gear that makes your level whatever stronger than it would be if you didn’t have the expansion, so yes, WoW would be considered pay to win if you include expansions, just like every other MMO I’ve ever played.
The short answer is, I’ve never ever played an MMO where buying the expansion didn’t give you an advantage in Power. In WoW you could often go back with better/newer gear and solo older dungeons, far more easily than you can here. Because gear means so much more in WoW. It’s far less dependent on player skill, and more dependent on gear numbers.
There really isn’t even a question to answer here. You get far more power and advantage from a WoW expansion that you do from Heart of Thorns.
This is my argument. It’s not like any other requirement for anything else in the game, because raids DO take far far more effort than anything else in the game. And if you don’t enjoy them, then Anet is requiring you to not enjoy the game.
And yet I don’t enjoy them….ankitten ot required to do them.
You are not required to do them….unless you want legendary armor. This is the truth as we know it so far. There are people working on their legendary sets right now…I happen not to be one of them.
You don’t have to agree with I’m saying, but it doesn’t make it any less valid.
I am not required to do them even if I want legendary armor. There are skins in the PvP rewards track that I want. I don’t like GW2’s sPvP desig and so do not want to participate.
Luckily I am not required to do PvP just because I want something associated with it.
I get that you want something that is gated behind content that you do not want to play. There have been rewards gated behind content that people, including myself, do not want to play since the game launched. This has been part of Anet’s design intention, decisions, and implementation since before the game launched, and was not a secret. Apparently, in the past, this did not seem to impact you (or at least not sufficiently to be worth complaint). Now it, apparently does, and is worth complaint. OK.
Welcome to the club. A message with the club secret handshake and decoder ring is on the way.
As long as Legendary has been set up with features that non-legendary armor does have, as long as stats sets are locked behind one content type that MOST PLAYERS will never access, this game has steered from it’s original course.
You may not think it’s a big deal but this is a lot more than me just wanting something I’ll never have. This is a change of direction from a game that allowed people to work slowly toward something casually, to a game that doesn’t allow people to work slowly toward something.
Today it’s legendary armor and new stat sets for jewelry. But if you’re willing to lock that behind raids today, what happens in the future as more raids are created.
It’s always fun to try to turn an argument into well I want stuff to, so you’re not a special snowflake, but this situation doesn’t actually exist anywhere else in the game. You can get fractal weapon skins only in fractals for example….but fractals take almost no time to play today and more than that, they’re simply skins. They offer no functionality that you can’t get outside of Fractals.
Legendary armor, and ascended stat sets locked behind raids do in fact offer you something you can’t get anywhere else. And the time/cost/effort of doing raids is really different than anything else in the game.
As an example, you can lose in PvP over and over and still further a reward track. You don’t have to get to diamond league even to get a legendary backpack. You can play a PvP match in roughly 15 minutes, so if you’re patient, over time, you can get that legendary backpack. Of course, you can also get a legendary backpack from fractals, even if it’s not in the game yet. It will be soon enough.
Locking any tier of content with features behind the aspect of the game that takes the most time and preparation is only going to serve to alienate people who don’t have the time to spend banging away at something, particularly if not everyone enjoys it.
You can say this is about greed or entitlement and you would be wrong. It’s about a decision Anet made that I’m pretty sure is bad for the game.
If this was only about skins or minis, I’d have no problem with it.
Actually I don’t believe HoT was ever supposed to be a 100% product any more than Guild Wars 2 was at launch.
Do you think Guild Wars 2 launched with everything it was supposed to launch with. Hell the trading post didn’t work at launch. The guesting feature, supposed to be in the game didn’t work at launch or for months after.
Fractals didn’t come in at launch or ascended gear, but anyone who thinks they made and tested Fractals in 3 months or so is fooling themselves. That was stuff they were working on before launch that didn’t make it into launch. It was already likely almost finished and being tested on launch day.
Hell, even Arah story mode dungeon felt like they simple ran out of time for it. But a lot of really cool stuff came later.
This expansion feels a lot like the first expansion. It needs a boatload of tweaks, but stuff is starting to come. The raids that came shortly after launch, has now had a second raid wing, and my guess is in another two months or so they’ll have the third.
After that Living Story Season 3 comes in and I have pretty high expectations from it, because I like the method of telling stories I saw in HoT more than I liked the way the story was told in Season 2.
And a lot of this expansion was rewriting the way the game works. Masteries and elite specializations took time to create, but they’re in the game now and Anet won’t have to create them again.
Yes, I think this expansion wasn’t 100%, just as I felt the core game wasn’t 100%.
I’m not sure I care, because I’ve always felt like I was buying a season pass, as well as an expansion.
Vayne you are right, but the Elite Spec are pretty close to pay to win if you ask me.
Okay I’ve said this many times and not a single person has been able to answer me.
Can you name ANY MMORPG, any at all, that isn’t pay to win if you count expansions. I ask this because I can’t. P2W was always mean to refer to cash shops, not expansions.
Take WoW as an example. WoW raises the level cap with every expansion. That is you become far more powerful each time an expansion comes out, including in PvP. This has been true in every MMO I’ve played.
Expansions are sold and people are expected to buy them to continue to playing the game, even in a subscription game.
Now in Guild Wars 2, there’s less P2W than any other MMO because they didn’t raise the level cap and you can still compete with some builds in PvP.
P2W was meant to denote games that sold power in the cash shop that you couldn’t get in game. It never covered an expansion to my knowledge.
If it did, even Guild Wars 1 was pay to win.
Actually you have been answered in the past when you made this point. It was also pointed out that the same wiki that you have used to support your definition of other MMO terms disagrees with your limited definition of pay to win.
WoW’s expansions add character levels. A character who advances in power level via an expansion in WoW is moving on to higher level content, perhaps including a higher PvP tier where characters at the old power cap are not expected to compete.
In GW2 buying and taking advantage of the supposed (Ihave not seen analysis that demonstrates that the elite specs are objectively more powerful so I say, “supposed.”) Power increase via the expansion remain at the same character level as, in direct competition with, those who do not. WoW attempts to seperate the old power level from the new while GW2 expects old, underpoered, chaacters to compete with the new power cap.
I am not claiming that HoT is pay to win because I dont know for a fact that the elite specs are more powerful. But, if they are, the expansion becomes something for which one pays real money for an advantage over those, with whom one is in direct competition, who do not.
And I’ve answered that. Since WoW does have PvP servers, if you happen to be on a PvP server, you are facing people who are higher level than you with no chance at all to beat them in open world PvP. Open World PvP is maps devoted to PvP that all levels can enter and fight on. Therefore WoW is pay to win.
The only way you can prove it’s not is if you can tell me that people that are level 80 can’t fight peopel that are level 70 that don’t have the expansion. But you can’t tell me that, because it’s not true. On a PvP server higher level players can beat up on lower level players, even if they haven’t bought the expansion. That’s the definition of pay to win you’re using, so if you’re using WoW you’re factually wrong.
There are other advantages people get, ev3en brought up in this very thread, a few posts above this one. You can go into higher zones, come back and PvP on your level 70 character that’s twinked out with better gear from having the expansion, again pay to win.
Saying people have answered it only works if the answers actually fits. Saying you’ve answered it and ignoring the places where WOW is pay to win (by this definition which I don’t agree with anyway) is pointless.
Holy kitten. What have I done? lool
Eh don’t feel bad, this is just the state that the game has degenerated to. ANET built a community up that was used to faceroll easy content and now that they put interesting rewards behind content that may require a tiny bit of time investment or skill, they’re up in arms. They’ll nerf it though or provide an alternate, long as heck material Timegated route though. That I have no doubt.
I am getting sick of the attitude that all raids take is a little bit of effort and that if someone can’t beat a raid, it just means that they are unwilling to put in effort.
I have been practicing since the raid came out, and I haven’t beaten VG yet, but I hope to one day. But please don’t tell me that it only takes a tiny bit of time investment or skill because I’ve put in more than that.
Then again, Dark Souls taught me that there isn’t anything that a gamer won’t call easy.
This is my argument. It’s not like any other requirement for anything else in the game, because raids DO take far far more effort than anything else in the game. And if you don’t enjoy them, then Anet is requiring you to not enjoy the game.
If you’re enjoying the raiding you’re doing, that’s fine. If you like that kind of banging your head against the wall until you get something done, good for you.
But I don’t enjoy that style of play. Particularly because my home situation requires me to be on call a lot and I don’t always get to sit and do what I want for an hour at a time, or two.
There are a whole lot of people who work, want to come home and relax who play this game. And none of them should get rewards locked behind raids for what reason.
Keep in mind there really was nothing like this in Guild Wars 1 at all. If you couldn’t get through DOA you could still buy a tormented weapon.
Any of the armors you could work on a bit at a time. You could be ectos or obby shards for the hardest armor to get in the game.
Making this beyond the reach of most of the population is a bad move for the game in general. And don’t tell me everyone can do it. Even though I could do it, and I KNOW I could do it, it would involve me doing something I didnt’ enjoy for hours and hours on end. What kind of game is that? Why would I play it? Why would I want to buy gems in it? Why would I want to buy expansions?
This really makes no sense to me. If I don’t want to participate in certain content such as PvP, or adventures, or open world events, why should I expect to receive the rewards for doing so?
I can certainly understand the argument that mandatory/necessary rewards such as masteries should not be locked behind niche content. In fact, I definitely have a bit of a gripe about masteries being locked behind adventures as I find this content extremely tedious and have no interest in participating.
Having said that, I don’t view legendary armor as mandatory content. There is no justification for making every legendary item attainable by all content pathways. Raids should have exclusive items, as should PvP, as should adventures, open world achievements, and so on. As long as they are all equivalent, ANet stays true to the original intent.
If that means I have to participate in undesirable content if I want to get a specific legendary skin, then so be it. That doesn’t mean I’m being forced to do anything.
Finally, I recognize that the time frame matters. If raids have access to the only legendary armor pieces for a significant period of time, that isn’t really fair to those who don’t raid. But what do you propose we do? It is not acceptable in my mind to grant exclusive raid legendaries for non-raid content just as it would be inappropriate to provide PvP legendaries for open-world content. But they do need to provide reward paths to suit various types of players. Based on what I’ve heard of this game’s history, it’s only fair.
I’ve said it numerous times in numerous threads. This isn’t that hard a matter.
If you’re going to lock legendary armor behind raids, make it sellable. If not, use a really cool awesome skin for raids and give the functionality to a cheaper looking lengedary for different content.
I’m not asking for something faceroll easy. Or cheap. I’m asking to add another goal for me to work toward without investing huge amounts of time in something I’m not enjoying.
I’m not sure why people find this so unreasonable.
This is my argument. It’s not like any other requirement for anything else in the game, because raids DO take far far more effort than anything else in the game. And if you don’t enjoy them, then Anet is requiring you to not enjoy the game.
And yet I don’t enjoy them….ankitten ot required to do them.
You are not required to do them….unless you want legendary armor. This is the truth as we know it so far. There are people working on their legendary sets right now…I happen not to be one of them.
You don’t have to agree with I’m saying, but it doesn’t make it any less valid.
I’m working on it right now and I’m forced to “play” or “visit” the new PvE maps EVERY DAY. The raid part of the legendary armor seems to be the easier part. LOL.
But you aren’t forced to be working on them.
I read this as a tongue in cheek reply to those who say they are “forced” to do raids. Especially with the “LOL” art the end.
We’re not forced to do raids, nor play the game at all. But if the rewards that are new and good are mostly now hidden behind raids, that’s where the pressure is. I’ve left games in the past for just that reason.
Forced might be the wrong word, feel free to read it is strongly encouraged or guided by the push of the game company.
Try to put yourself in a casual players place. After the Winter update, we had two things on top of our screen on the right at the same time….PvP leagues and Raids. That’s what the game was giving us.
Are we “forced” to do it? No, not in the literal sense of the word force. It’s too bad people tend to take things literally the first time they read it, because no matter how many times you explain it afterwards, they continue to push their misinterpretation over the actual intended meaning. That’s sort of the whole point of explaining it.
To be clear in the cases where I’ve been using it forced means strongly incentivized. Pressured. Pushed in the direction of.
The NPE is done and dusted. It’s not going to be changed now, and there’s little reason to change it. Most of the stuff people complained about has been fixed and that stuff that hasn’t been fixed isn’t likely to be fixed.
There’s too much to do to go back and fix every individual thing that a group of people don’t like. This is a ship that has sailed long ago. Hard to believe anyone necroed a thread on an update that most people have since accepted.
And yes, I really do believe most people don’t even think about this anymore.
How many topics need to be done about raids and legendary armour lol
This topic isn’t really about raids and legendary armor. It’s about the background some of us having coming to this game. Raids are certainly a part of that discussion and once people start attacking that one point, of course I’m going to defend it.
But this is more about people on the forum who come from different backgrounds slinging mud at each other without trying to understand where the other people come from.
I get why people like raids, I get why people like PvP. I also get why I don’t like either. This isn’t about just raids, or just PvP. And if people would stop attacking those smaller points, the thread would be about what I’d intended it to be about.
I don’t say you shouldn’t like raids, and I don’t say you shouldn’t like PvP. But Anet needs to understand too that some of us come here for very different reasons, and we want them to think about that when they make decisions moving forward that affect everyone.
The content drought that’s going on right now is really only a content drought if you don’t like PvP or you don’t like raiding. Otherwise, it’s not a content drought at all. And some people think we just just shut up and raid or shut up and PvP.
Well I’ve tried both. I’ve put hours into raids already, and haven’t really enjoyed it. And I’ve put hours into PvP, which I continue to do, because I can do it in small doses, but it’s beginning to sour me on the game as a whole. I’m not having fun.
But it’s not because I’m lazy. It’s not because I want to press 1 and win. And it’s not because I’m entitled. That’s the main thing I hope people take away from this thread.
I’m not having fun because I don’t enjoy those activities, and I know for a fact, I’m not alone. The idea that specific rewards are placed behind content I don’t enjoy is a sort of like adding insult to injury. In and of itself it’s not important.
But then my group of people went from getting upgrades every two weeks to getting upgrades four times a year and that’s a fairly big change.
Why is anyone surprised there’d be some sort of backlash?
In an attempt to be constructive, what do you actually want? What is your “list of demands?”
If you want more pve content, like living world, then I am 100% on board. If you want more map events, like the destruction of lions arch, then I’m 100% on board. This kind of content is way overdue.
I think you start to lose people when you ask for access or easier access to certain skins. That’s where “entitled” or “press 1 to receive loot” gets thrown around. Guild wars 2 end game rewards are all about skins, since there is no gear treadmill. Exclusive skins can serve as an adequate reward for content.
Every area of the game has some exclusive skins tied to it. Ambrite collection. Chak collection. Wvw armor. Guild armor. Fractal weapons. Glorious armor. Pvp backpiece. Christmas and Halloween skins. And more and more …
This could be the “problem” you’re railing against. But I haven’t seen this sort of backlash since raids. I truly think it’s the content drought. And I agree that’s a problem.
I’m not asking for EASIER anything. I’m asking for different. And again, if you add functionality it’s no longer just a skin and that’s a fact.
Sure I’d like more to do. And if I had stuff to do, this post probably wouldn’t have been made. But I don’t and it has.
There’s a very real perception from causal players that this game is moving in a direction they don’t like. I mean I’m not the first or only guy talking about this. Some are playing less, like me. Some are leaving.
But organizing 10 people to do something, or having to be there on a schedule was not something I signed up for when I bought this game and until now I haven’t needed to do that.
Now I do. The game has changed. It has become less casual to me. And that is a problem for me, whether you think I’m just asking for easy rewards or not.
If they continue to bang rewards behind raids, people will start to think this game isn’t for them, because they didn’t have that barrier before. People will become disenfranchised, fair or unfair.
I’m also on board with a different method to acquire (different) legendary armor. Eventually. Apparently legendary items take a long time to develop. Only 3 new weapons so far. Fractal legendary not complete. Raid legendary not complete. I’d rather have legendary armor behind raids, for the time being, than not have it at all. And I do think it’s a proper prestige award for the content. I know we disagree on the value of changing stats on legendaries. (Again, it’s mostly useless as long as runes and sigils are in play).
I also agree that 30 minute causal content is really lacking right now. I think this is where we find common ground. Sometimes, I don’t want to play for long periods of time. What are my choices? HOT map metas? Too long. Dungeons? Not really after the nerf. Fractals? A swamp snore fest. Really only pvp, which doesn’t help much for pve players.
Like you said, it’s ok for people to like raids, as I do. But I think it’s ok for raids to have exclusive rewards, including legendaries. I also think raids get a lot of unjustified flak, because they are very polished for the content they offer. I don’t think raids are endemic of the problem. The content drought is the problem.
I wouldn’t are if I didn’t get a legendary skin at all. If I could upgrade an ascended item so that it could switch stats without changing skins, I’d probably be happy. I’m happy for raids to have their minipets. and their special skins. But once you add functionality to it, it’s a very least a slippery slope. And I feel the same about stat sets.
I’m sure over time this will all blow over, but in the mean time, there are people frustrated with the game at the moment. I mean, people usually identify me as a white knight. I’m not prone to complain about this game.
But I’m also sure that Anet is working on stuff that will be for me again.
I’m pretty sure anyone who’s played WoW, and takes an honest look at the situation, knows for a fact that a higher level is more power and you need to buy an expansion to get that power.
By that definition just about every MMO is pay to win, which is why that’s not the definition.
The phrase was created so players could tell the difference between legitimate MMOs and ones who sold power in the cash shop. Five years ago, no one ever claimed any expansion was P2W and it only makes sense of you interpret it literally.
It’s talking about games where you literally buy power in the cash shop. Stats. Advantage in combat. Those are pay to win games. Games that keep requiring cash flow in order to progress. Maple story. Runequest.
Games like Guild Wars 2 or WoW don’t belong in that conversation. They come out with expansions and you buy them to continue playing.
Anyone who thinks you can just keep playing WOW and the expansion makes no difference is fooling themselves. Anyone trying to say that expansions are pay to win are interpreting pay to win differently than it was interpreted in years before.
If you want to move the goal posts, then you have to move it for every game, and every MMORPG is pay to win.
People who claim expansions are pay to win are simply misusing the term. The problem is people who weren’t there when the term was invented try to use the term literally. Unfortunately there are many terms in English you can’t take literally.
Pay to win was usually meant to denote games that offered microtransactions that provided power. If you can buy somethign that makes you more powerful, particularly if you cant’ earn it in game as well, it’s a pay to win game.
Expansions were never considered pay to win and I can’t think of any expansion in any MMORPG that didn’t increase the power of the game. Most games that comes through leveling.
If anything this game is less pay to win, since PvP is normalized here.
I think you misunderstand their use of pay to win, the elite specs have pretty much dominated every game-mode, there is no balance with elite specs and non-elite specs. If you don’t buy HoT you can’t compete in any part of the game.
Completely irrelevant to what I said. Name ANY MMORPG that’s not pay to win by that defintion. WoW is pay to win. They’re all pay to win if you count expansions.
You are simply using the words literally and ignoring the meaning that was assigned to those words when they were first used.
If every single MMO is pay to win, then there’s nothing to talk about.
um no, other MMOs aren’t pay to win by that definition. I’ve played WoW and didn’t get the next expansion, I stayed relevant in the content that came out prior to that expansion. I could still PvP at the previous max level and be competitive, I could still run all the same content and be good. You’re wrong and clearly have no clue what pay to win means or perhaps you are one of the people who enjoys pay to win, which is fine. But it shouldn’t be in this game.
Are you saying that when you PvP in WoW gear doesn’t matter, and you can be 10 levels lower and still beat guys 10 levels higher than you?
I am saying that in WoW if I am level 70 and a new expansion comes out I can continue playing at level 70 with other people at level 70 and not have to worry about having to pay for an expansion to enjoy content I already own.
Okay hypthetical.
You’re level 70 in WoW. You can still fight other level 70s. But at any time a guy with a level 80 can come by on a PvP server and waste you, am I correct?
You’re saying because WOW raised the level cap and this game didn’t, it’s not pay to win. In WoW, if someone bought the expansion, and you didn’t and they leveled their character, they would kill you, pretty much automatically. Much more automatically then they did here. They paid for the expansion and they could win. That’s how you’re using the definition. You can’t have it both ways.
Either people who buy the expansion are more powerful than you are or they’re not.
The power different in WoW was much greater. Here if you’re better, you really can win. That would be a lot harder in WoW, particularly once those guys geared up.
I repeat, P2W was never about expansions. It never referred to expansions. Five years ago, no one ever claimed an expansion was pay to win because people were more powerful.
The term was invented to differentation games like Runes of Magic, or Maple Story from legit games. For example, in Black Desert right now, there are outfits in the store you can by for $29 bucks. Some give you stats. Some allow you to hide your name tag from enemies. That would be a classic example of pay to win.
Buying power through microtransactions, not expansions.
Incorrect, GW2 doesn’t have PvP servers, you can’t compare apples to oranges. A fair comparison would be GW2 vs WoWs PvE servers.
More importantly, no the term was invented when 3 words were put together into a sentence and they make a coherent statement of paying to win or winning by payment.
Guild Wars 2 has WvW. But you have to admit, people have more power in WoW if they buy the expansion even in PvP. That’s the very definition of pay to win you’re using.
WoW PvP doesn’t work that way, it works in scales of 1-9 and 10s. Or at least it did last time I played. So a level 71 who bought the next expansion wouldn’t be playing against a level 70 who did not.
WvW is also unbalanced by elite specs, Trust me I know. I have HoT I have the elite specs and I would never run a non-elite spec build ever again thats how unbalanced it is.
But WoW still has open world servers. You can’t say, well excluding that it’s not pay to win.
If you are on a PVP server, and you don’t get the expansion you’re going to lose, pretty much automatically to a higher player. People on those servers would have every right to call that pay to win.
Here, even playing without elite stats, I’ve won PvP matches. I’ve even beaten some people with elite specs. Sometimes it’s a rock paper scissors thing.
Expansions were never before part of the P2W equation. No one talked about it years ago. It’s a perpertually shifting goal post because people don’t remember the original conversation and they’re talking the words literally.
Fact: WoW has PVP servers.
Fact; If you have a higher level, which you can only get with an expansion you can kill another player quite easily.
Fact: By your definition WoW is pay to win.
You simply have to look at the definition of pay to win and you have to apply it equally to each game, not compare the features of each game.
If there is a server on WoW, an area in which you have more power, then WoW is pay to win…by your definition.
How many topics need to be done about raids and legendary armour lol
This topic isn’t really about raids and legendary armor. It’s about the background some of us having coming to this game. Raids are certainly a part of that discussion and once people start attacking that one point, of course I’m going to defend it.
But this is more about people on the forum who come from different backgrounds slinging mud at each other without trying to understand where the other people come from.
I get why people like raids, I get why people like PvP. I also get why I don’t like either. This isn’t about just raids, or just PvP. And if people would stop attacking those smaller points, the thread would be about what I’d intended it to be about.
I don’t say you shouldn’t like raids, and I don’t say you shouldn’t like PvP. But Anet needs to understand too that some of us come here for very different reasons, and we want them to think about that when they make decisions moving forward that affect everyone.
The content drought that’s going on right now is really only a content drought if you don’t like PvP or you don’t like raiding. Otherwise, it’s not a content drought at all. And some people think we just just shut up and raid or shut up and PvP.
Well I’ve tried both. I’ve put hours into raids already, and haven’t really enjoyed it. And I’ve put hours into PvP, which I continue to do, because I can do it in small doses, but it’s beginning to sour me on the game as a whole. I’m not having fun.
But it’s not because I’m lazy. It’s not because I want to press 1 and win. And it’s not because I’m entitled. That’s the main thing I hope people take away from this thread.
I’m not having fun because I don’t enjoy those activities, and I know for a fact, I’m not alone. The idea that specific rewards are placed behind content I don’t enjoy is a sort of like adding insult to injury. In and of itself it’s not important.
But then my group of people went from getting upgrades every two weeks to getting upgrades four times a year and that’s a fairly big change.
Why is anyone surprised there’d be some sort of backlash?
In an attempt to be constructive, what do you actually want? What is your “list of demands?”
If you want more pve content, like living world, then I am 100% on board. If you want more map events, like the destruction of lions arch, then I’m 100% on board. This kind of content is way overdue.
I think you start to lose people when you ask for access or easier access to certain skins. That’s where “entitled” or “press 1 to receive loot” gets thrown around. Guild wars 2 end game rewards are all about skins, since there is no gear treadmill. Exclusive skins can serve as an adequate reward for content.
Every area of the game has some exclusive skins tied to it. Ambrite collection. Chak collection. Wvw armor. Guild armor. Fractal weapons. Glorious armor. Pvp backpiece. Christmas and Halloween skins. And more and more …
This could be the “problem” you’re railing against. But I haven’t seen this sort of backlash since raids. I truly think it’s the content drought. And I agree that’s a problem.
I’m not asking for EASIER anything. I’m asking for different. And again, if you add functionality it’s no longer just a skin and that’s a fact.
Sure I’d like more to do. And if I had stuff to do, this post probably wouldn’t have been made. But I don’t and it has.
There’s a very real perception from causal players that this game is moving in a direction they don’t like. I mean I’m not the first or only guy talking about this. Some are playing less, like me. Some are leaving.
But organizing 10 people to do something, or having to be there on a schedule was not something I signed up for when I bought this game and until now I haven’t needed to do that.
Now I do. The game has changed. It has become less casual to me. And that is a problem for me, whether you think I’m just asking for easy rewards or not.
If they continue to bang rewards behind raids, people will start to think this game isn’t for them, because they didn’t have that barrier before. People will become disenfranchised, fair or unfair.
Ultimately, legendary items are a prestige skin with the same stats as ascended. Personally, I would be ok if, eventually, there’s an alternate method to get legendary armor. Just like, eventually, we’ll be able to get the legendary backpiece from fractals. But beating raids is a prestige accomplishment. And legendary armor is an appropriate prestige award.
And that’s the problem. I don’t see any prestige here. I just see people that like one type of gameplay being treated better than people that prefer to have fun in different ways.
The legendary armor is not really a mark of prestige. It’s a mark that raiders are Anet’s preferred players. That Anet thinks that a huge majority of players that are supporting this game financially are second category citizens.
And considering that those second category citizens were the original target group for this game, while the raids were something lot of the players escaped from, you can guess how many people take that message very, very badly.You’re doing your side no favors by advancing this argument. Please explain how legendary items are not prestige, when they have the same stats as ascended, and generally require a large amount of effort to acquire.
You can only get the new legendary weapons through HOT maps. Does that make everyone else a second class citizen? You can only get the pvp legendary through pvp. Does that make everyone else a second class citizen? You can only the legendary fractal backpiece through fractals. Does that make everyone else a second class citizen?
I get that you’ve run out of things to do in this game. So you want to go for legendary armor. But, really, it is a prestige item. Don’t blame raids for the current content drought.
That’s the difference between you and me. I’m not trying to do any side any favors. I’m talking about how I feel.
People who claim expansions are pay to win are simply misusing the term. The problem is people who weren’t there when the term was invented try to use the term literally. Unfortunately there are many terms in English you can’t take literally.
Pay to win was usually meant to denote games that offered microtransactions that provided power. If you can buy somethign that makes you more powerful, particularly if you cant’ earn it in game as well, it’s a pay to win game.
Expansions were never considered pay to win and I can’t think of any expansion in any MMORPG that didn’t increase the power of the game. Most games that comes through leveling.
If anything this game is less pay to win, since PvP is normalized here.
I think you misunderstand their use of pay to win, the elite specs have pretty much dominated every game-mode, there is no balance with elite specs and non-elite specs. If you don’t buy HoT you can’t compete in any part of the game.
Completely irrelevant to what I said. Name ANY MMORPG that’s not pay to win by that defintion. WoW is pay to win. They’re all pay to win if you count expansions.
You are simply using the words literally and ignoring the meaning that was assigned to those words when they were first used.
If every single MMO is pay to win, then there’s nothing to talk about.
um no, other MMOs aren’t pay to win by that definition. I’ve played WoW and didn’t get the next expansion, I stayed relevant in the content that came out prior to that expansion. I could still PvP at the previous max level and be competitive, I could still run all the same content and be good. You’re wrong and clearly have no clue what pay to win means or perhaps you are one of the people who enjoys pay to win, which is fine. But it shouldn’t be in this game.
Are you saying that when you PvP in WoW gear doesn’t matter, and you can be 10 levels lower and still beat guys 10 levels higher than you?
I am saying that in WoW if I am level 70 and a new expansion comes out I can continue playing at level 70 with other people at level 70 and not have to worry about having to pay for an expansion to enjoy content I already own.
Okay hypthetical.
You’re level 70 in WoW. You can still fight other level 70s. But at any time a guy with a level 80 can come by on a PvP server and waste you, am I correct?
You’re saying because WOW raised the level cap and this game didn’t, it’s not pay to win. In WoW, if someone bought the expansion, and you didn’t and they leveled their character, they would kill you, pretty much automatically. Much more automatically then they did here. They paid for the expansion and they could win. That’s how you’re using the definition. You can’t have it both ways.
Either people who buy the expansion are more powerful than you are or they’re not.
The power different in WoW was much greater. Here if you’re better, you really can win. That would be a lot harder in WoW, particularly once those guys geared up.
I repeat, P2W was never about expansions. It never referred to expansions. Five years ago, no one ever claimed an expansion was pay to win because people were more powerful.
The term was invented to differentation games like Runes of Magic, or Maple Story from legit games. For example, in Black Desert right now, there are outfits in the store you can by for $29 bucks. Some give you stats. Some allow you to hide your name tag from enemies. That would be a classic example of pay to win.
Buying power through microtransactions, not expansions.
Incorrect, GW2 doesn’t have PvP servers, you can’t compare apples to oranges. A fair comparison would be GW2 vs WoWs PvE servers.
More importantly, no the term was invented when 3 words were put together into a sentence and they make a coherent statement of paying to win or winning by payment.
Guild Wars 2 has WvW. But you have to admit, people have more power in WoW if they buy the expansion even in PvP. That’s the very definition of pay to win you’re using.
People who claim expansions are pay to win are simply misusing the term. The problem is people who weren’t there when the term was invented try to use the term literally. Unfortunately there are many terms in English you can’t take literally.
Pay to win was usually meant to denote games that offered microtransactions that provided power. If you can buy somethign that makes you more powerful, particularly if you cant’ earn it in game as well, it’s a pay to win game.
Expansions were never considered pay to win and I can’t think of any expansion in any MMORPG that didn’t increase the power of the game. Most games that comes through leveling.
If anything this game is less pay to win, since PvP is normalized here.
I think you misunderstand their use of pay to win, the elite specs have pretty much dominated every game-mode, there is no balance with elite specs and non-elite specs. If you don’t buy HoT you can’t compete in any part of the game.
Completely irrelevant to what I said. Name ANY MMORPG that’s not pay to win by that defintion. WoW is pay to win. They’re all pay to win if you count expansions.
You are simply using the words literally and ignoring the meaning that was assigned to those words when they were first used.
If every single MMO is pay to win, then there’s nothing to talk about.
um no, other MMOs aren’t pay to win by that definition. I’ve played WoW and didn’t get the next expansion, I stayed relevant in the content that came out prior to that expansion. I could still PvP at the previous max level and be competitive, I could still run all the same content and be good. You’re wrong and clearly have no clue what pay to win means or perhaps you are one of the people who enjoys pay to win, which is fine. But it shouldn’t be in this game.
Are you saying that when you PvP in WoW gear doesn’t matter, and you can be 10 levels lower and still beat guys 10 levels higher than you?
I am saying that in WoW if I am level 70 and a new expansion comes out I can continue playing at level 70 with other people at level 70 and not have to worry about having to pay for an expansion to enjoy content I already own.
Okay hypthetical.
You’re level 70 in WoW. You can still fight other level 70s. But at any time a guy with a level 80 can come by on a PvP server and waste you, am I correct?
You’re saying because WOW raised the level cap and this game didn’t, it’s not pay to win. In WoW, if someone bought the expansion, and you didn’t and they leveled their character, they would kill you, pretty much automatically. Much more automatically then they did here. They paid for the expansion and they could win. That’s how you’re using the definition. You can’t have it both ways.
Either people who buy the expansion are more powerful than you are or they’re not.
The power different in WoW was much greater. Here if you’re better, you really can win. That would be a lot harder in WoW, particularly once those guys geared up.
I repeat, P2W was never about expansions. It never referred to expansions. Five years ago, no one ever claimed an expansion was pay to win because people were more powerful.
The term was invented to differentation games like Runes of Magic, or Maple Story from legit games. For example, in Black Desert right now, there are outfits in the store you can by for $29 bucks. Some give you stats. Some allow you to hide your name tag from enemies. That would be a classic example of pay to win.
Buying power through microtransactions, not expansions.
People who claim expansions are pay to win are simply misusing the term. The problem is people who weren’t there when the term was invented try to use the term literally. Unfortunately there are many terms in English you can’t take literally.
Pay to win was usually meant to denote games that offered microtransactions that provided power. If you can buy somethign that makes you more powerful, particularly if you cant’ earn it in game as well, it’s a pay to win game.
Expansions were never considered pay to win and I can’t think of any expansion in any MMORPG that didn’t increase the power of the game. Most games that comes through leveling.
If anything this game is less pay to win, since PvP is normalized here.
I think you misunderstand their use of pay to win, the elite specs have pretty much dominated every game-mode, there is no balance with elite specs and non-elite specs. If you don’t buy HoT you can’t compete in any part of the game.
Completely irrelevant to what I said. Name ANY MMORPG that’s not pay to win by that defintion. WoW is pay to win. They’re all pay to win if you count expansions.
You are simply using the words literally and ignoring the meaning that was assigned to those words when they were first used.
If every single MMO is pay to win, then there’s nothing to talk about.
um no, other MMOs aren’t pay to win by that definition. I’ve played WoW and didn’t get the next expansion, I stayed relevant in the content that came out prior to that expansion. I could still PvP at the previous max level and be competitive, I could still run all the same content and be good. You’re wrong and clearly have no clue what pay to win means or perhaps you are one of the people who enjoys pay to win, which is fine. But it shouldn’t be in this game.
Are you saying that when you PvP in WoW gear doesn’t matter, and you can be 10 levels lower and still beat guys 10 levels higher than you?
People who claim expansions are pay to win are simply misusing the term. The problem is people who weren’t there when the term was invented try to use the term literally. Unfortunately there are many terms in English you can’t take literally.
Pay to win was usually meant to denote games that offered microtransactions that provided power. If you can buy somethign that makes you more powerful, particularly if you cant’ earn it in game as well, it’s a pay to win game.
Expansions were never considered pay to win and I can’t think of any expansion in any MMORPG that didn’t increase the power of the game. Most games that comes through leveling.
If anything this game is less pay to win, since PvP is normalized here.
I think you misunderstand their use of pay to win, the elite specs have pretty much dominated every game-mode, there is no balance with elite specs and non-elite specs. If you don’t buy HoT you can’t compete in any part of the game.
Completely irrelevant to what I said. Name ANY MMORPG that’s not pay to win by that defintion. WoW is pay to win. They’re all pay to win if you count expansions.
You are simply using the words literally and ignoring the meaning that was assigned to those words when they were first used.
If every single MMO is pay to win, then there’s nothing to talk about.
MMOs should take a page from Minecraft, no missions, quests, objectives or story. Just a open world for you to explore and build stuff. Don’t give players content, give them the tools so they make their own content.
I would end GW2 with a dragons wiping the everything. Then in GW3, each race has to rebuild their empires, the entire Tyria is free for all. Old alliances between races have broken down, they now compete with each other over land and resources. Players can build structures anywhere, from small cottages by single players, to megacities by thousands of players that act as social hubs.
Some structures will perish but some may survive years of RvR conflict, and players in three years time still hangout in a city made by XYZ guild at launch.
What you’re describing is a sandbox MMO. What we’re playing is a themepark MMO. You’d probably be happier with a sandbox.
The problem for me is most sandboxes are about open world PvP and that’s just not my thing.
Not worth $50 for vets , suggesting new model
in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns
Posted by: Vayne.8563
I enjoy playing from the first moments of a new expansion, figuring out stuff with people for the first time. That’s easily worth $10-15 dollars to me. I suspect most people feel that way too.
The reason henchmen won’t happen has nothing to do with easy and everything to do with lag. If they can only support 150ish players on a map now, and you start adding henchmen, it’ll be harder and harder to get into servers with friends and guildies. And it would increase lag as well.
Vayne you are right, but the Elite Spec are pretty close to pay to win if you ask me.
Okay I’ve said this many times and not a single person has been able to answer me.
Can you name ANY MMORPG, any at all, that isn’t pay to win if you count expansions. I ask this because I can’t. P2W was always mean to refer to cash shops, not expansions.
Take WoW as an example. WoW raises the level cap with every expansion. That is you become far more powerful each time an expansion comes out, including in PvP. This has been true in every MMO I’ve played.
Expansions are sold and people are expected to buy them to continue to playing the game, even in a subscription game.
Now in Guild Wars 2, there’s less P2W than any other MMO because they didn’t raise the level cap and you can still compete with some builds in PvP.
P2W was meant to denote games that sold power in the cash shop that you couldn’t get in game. It never covered an expansion to my knowledge.
If it did, even Guild Wars 1 was pay to win.
At some point in time, I do wonder when this discussion became about legendary armor, instead of about then nature of raiding in MMOs as a whole.
That may be partially my fault and I apologize.
The OP does talk about so much more and I was hoping to get discussion going on making your characters more personalized to instill more personality to your character besides the whole skin-race that results in most people settling on a look like their wardrobe projectile vomitted on their character model.
ArenaNet did away with the “RPG” personality element (Heart, Crown, Fist) a long time ago and it ain’t coming back—in it’s previous form or an updated one.
My characters all have personality but the game, as it’s laid out, really doesn’t support it well. The stories that you create are often at odds with the story the game lays out for you and that’s a problem for me. So within the boundaries of the game, I do the best I can. Different characters will make different choices based on who they are. What order will they join? What mission will they choose? How will they look? What minipet will be theirs. That sort of thing.
But I have well over 30 characters and that only goes so far.
The only way HoT is p2w is when it comes to pvp but that is where it ends. In a dungeon or fractal a f2p can do just as well as a b2p user.
That’s not correct for fractals. Without HoT your agony resistance stops at 100ish. With HoT 150ish. That’s a HUGE gap.
Which has nothing to do with pay to win unless running high level fractals makes you more powerful. Are there even any rewards you can’t get from a 70th level fractal that you can get from a 100th level?
My heart is with the people of Belgium. I was in NYC during 9/11 and I understand the raw pain and the damage caused by these attacks. There is nothing anyone can say to take away the pain, but know that the rest of the world stands with you at this time. The people of Belgium do not suffer alone. I weep with you.
This is my argument. It’s not like any other requirement for anything else in the game, because raids DO take far far more effort than anything else in the game. And if you don’t enjoy them, then Anet is requiring you to not enjoy the game.
And yet I don’t enjoy them….ankitten ot required to do them.
You are not required to do them….unless you want legendary armor. This is the truth as we know it so far. There are people working on their legendary sets right now…I happen not to be one of them.
You don’t have to agree with I’m saying, but it doesn’t make it any less valid.
My guild runs events in all the zones from time to time. Having someone that knows the stuff to show you is the best way to learn in my opinion.
How many topics need to be done about raids and legendary armour lol
This topic isn’t really about raids and legendary armor. It’s about the background some of us having coming to this game. Raids are certainly a part of that discussion and once people start attacking that one point, of course I’m going to defend it.
But this is more about people on the forum who come from different backgrounds slinging mud at each other without trying to understand where the other people come from.
I get why people like raids, I get why people like PvP. I also get why I don’t like either. This isn’t about just raids, or just PvP. And if people would stop attacking those smaller points, the thread would be about what I’d intended it to be about.
I don’t say you shouldn’t like raids, and I don’t say you shouldn’t like PvP. But Anet needs to understand too that some of us come here for very different reasons, and we want them to think about that when they make decisions moving forward that affect everyone.
The content drought that’s going on right now is really only a content drought if you don’t like PvP or you don’t like raiding. Otherwise, it’s not a content drought at all. And some people think we just just shut up and raid or shut up and PvP.
Well I’ve tried both. I’ve put hours into raids already, and haven’t really enjoyed it. And I’ve put hours into PvP, which I continue to do, because I can do it in small doses, but it’s beginning to sour me on the game as a whole. I’m not having fun.
But it’s not because I’m lazy. It’s not because I want to press 1 and win. And it’s not because I’m entitled. That’s the main thing I hope people take away from this thread.
I’m not having fun because I don’t enjoy those activities, and I know for a fact, I’m not alone. The idea that specific rewards are placed behind content I don’t enjoy is a sort of like adding insult to injury. In and of itself it’s not important.
But then my group of people went from getting upgrades every two weeks to getting upgrades four times a year and that’s a fairly big change.
Why is anyone surprised there’d be some sort of backlash?