Guild Wars 2

Banaghran.7510:

Imagine this discussion at the reception of a hotel, where one guest is trying to convince the other that the absence of soap and warm water was not so bad, because there still was electricity, the desk clerk smiling in the corner…

It’s a terrible analogy because soap and warm water are basics, where is legendary weapons are luxuries. More like if they said there was a massage room, and I wouldn’t have made use of it anyway, and they no longer offered it, even though it was still in the ad, That’s more what we’re dealing with here.

Comparing legendary weapons to soap and water isn’t really the same thing as comparing it to an exercise room, or a tennis court. I don’t go to a hotel to play tennis, but I do expect to shower.

Celtic Lady.3729:

Vayne.8563:

Celtic Lady.3729:

Vayne.8563:

Celtic Lady.3729:

Vayne.8563:

Celtic Lady.3729:

HoT was and continues to be only partially done so long as all the items they advertised as being a part of HoT have not been put into the game.

I’ll just leave this here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Disney_attractions_that_were_never_built

It’s not really the same situation and doesn’t alter my view that content already paid for should be provided.

It’s the same situation. Disney which is a themepark isntead of a themespark MMO talked about stuff they never delivered, for one reason or another.

Saying somethingt is partially completed, when it’s mostly completed is a different statement anyway. We’re not missing tons of stuff. We’re missing a couple of things out of a lot of things. And apparently the legendary fractal packpiece will be along any day, so we’ll be missing even less.

It’s not the same situation. There was a list of things we paid for from HoT. We paid for that list. The list that they chose to make and tell us was HoT was never fully delivered. Therefore, HoT is unfinished for what we paid for. The fact that they’re going to give more of the list, which is great, doesn’t change the fact that they’ve all but abandoned other items that we paid for. Until that list is in the game in its advertised entirety, HoT will be only partially completed.

Those who bought season passes at Disneyworld may have also paid for stuff they believed would be coming.

The problem is, with MMOs, you’re paying for access to areas. That’s what you’re paying for. Anyone who’s experienced with MMOs knows that stuff changes constantly, sometimes due to expected circumstances, some according to player commentary, some according to stuff that the company didn’t know.

Simply put if the company is going to put something in the game and not enough people are making use of it and it’s going to take a lot of development resources, canceling it is good business, even if a few players feel disenfranchised by it.

If we got 90% of the features listed on the box and then other things that weren’t listed, we’re getting value for money.

People still see buying an MMO is paying for a product, rather than a service, and they’re very different.

We were told we’d be able to craft precursors. Yes. Does everyone like the format that’s taken. No. But it’s all there.

Did Anet say we’d get new legedaries. Yes. Did they deliver some new legendaries, yes.

Did they also say over time we’d get more, yes. They did.

But We did get 3 legendaries and we’re getting a 4th now.

If you want to insist the expansion won’t be complete until the other 8 legendaries are in the game, sure, okay it won’t be complete. And TECHNICALLY that would make it a PARTIAL expansion.

But then if 90% of what is talked about is delivered, saying partial is still misleading.

It’s like saying I didn’t get hte radio I expected to get with my car, so I only got a partial car.

An expansion that’s always growing is always partial anyway. It’s the nature of the MMO beast.

If you paid for the radio, and they decided not to give it to you, then yes, you didn’t get the full sale. You got a partial sale, and most people wouldn’t be too happy to pay for features on their cars that they didn’t ever get after they’d already paid. Even making allowances for the difference in MMOs versus actual objects, they’ve given us a partial expansion so far.

They said that HoT would include 16 new legendaries. Until all 16 are in the game, it’s still partial even if most of it is there. They didn’t have to advertise 16 new legendaries. They could have advertised 4 new legendaries, but they didn’t. It was their choice to make that many legendaries part of the HoT pricing and advertisement.

But you still got a car, that’s the point. Legendaries don’t make up a significant percentage of the expansion. Saying you didn’t get a full expansion because you didn’t get a couple of features is a half truth. It’s technically true, but it’s also misleading.

For example, if you never ever had any intent to make a legendary weapon, then for every practical purpose, getting them or not getting them doesn’t change the expansion for you. For purposes of how it affects you’re game, you’re getting the exact same expansion.

I mean I got raids in this expansion and I don’t really do them, and I don’t enjoy them when I do them. Taking raids out of the game would improve the game for me. So even though technically I got what I paid for, so what? Getting what you paid for only matters if you want that thing. Otherwise it’s just a theoretical conversation about what I might not get next time.

There’s every chance that seeing a new legendary come out wouldn’t affect me, because I don’t like the look of most legendaries in the game. So let’s say they did come out with them. Going by what I know there’s only a 25-30 percent chance I would like each one. So if they came out with stuff I didn’t like how would that affect my game. In the car analogy, how would that affect my drive to work if I didn’t listen to the radio anyway?

The point is, while you’re technically correct in what you’re saying, for all practical purposes it doesn’t change the meaning of anything I’ve said. Those legendaries, had they been introduced, wouldn’t likely have affected my game much at all. And obviously what affects my game is mostly what I care about.

Celtic Lady.3729:

Vayne.8563:

Celtic Lady.3729:

Vayne.8563:

Celtic Lady.3729:

HoT was and continues to be only partially done so long as all the items they advertised as being a part of HoT have not been put into the game.

I’ll just leave this here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Disney_attractions_that_were_never_built

It’s not really the same situation and doesn’t alter my view that content already paid for should be provided.

It’s the same situation. Disney which is a themepark isntead of a themespark MMO talked about stuff they never delivered, for one reason or another.

Saying somethingt is partially completed, when it’s mostly completed is a different statement anyway. We’re not missing tons of stuff. We’re missing a couple of things out of a lot of things. And apparently the legendary fractal packpiece will be along any day, so we’ll be missing even less.

It’s not the same situation. There was a list of things we paid for from HoT. We paid for that list. The list that they chose to make and tell us was HoT was never fully delivered. Therefore, HoT is unfinished for what we paid for. The fact that they’re going to give more of the list, which is great, doesn’t change the fact that they’ve all but abandoned other items that we paid for. Until that list is in the game in its advertised entirety, HoT will be only partially completed.

Those who bought season passes at Disneyworld may have also paid for stuff they believed would be coming.

The problem is, with MMOs, you’re paying for access to areas. That’s what you’re paying for. Anyone who’s experienced with MMOs knows that stuff changes constantly, sometimes due to expected circumstances, some according to player commentary, some according to stuff that the company didn’t know.

Simply put if the company is going to put something in the game and not enough people are making use of it and it’s going to take a lot of development resources, canceling it is good business, even if a few players feel disenfranchised by it.

If we got 90% of the features listed on the box and then other things that weren’t listed, we’re getting value for money.

People still see buying an MMO is paying for a product, rather than a service, and they’re very different.

We were told we’d be able to craft precursors. Yes. Does everyone like the format that’s taken. No. But it’s all there.

Did Anet say we’d get new legedaries. Yes. Did they deliver some new legendaries, yes.

Did they also say over time we’d get more, yes. They did.

But We did get 3 legendaries and we’re getting a 4th now.

If you want to insist the expansion won’t be complete until the other 8 legendaries are in the game, sure, okay it won’t be complete. And TECHNICALLY that would make it a PARTIAL expansion.

But then if 90% of what is talked about is delivered, saying partial is still misleading.

It’s like saying I didn’t get hte radio I expected to get with my car, so I only got a partial car.

An expansion that’s always growing is always partial anyway. It’s the nature of the MMO beast.

Celtic Lady.3729:

Vayne.8563:

Celtic Lady.3729:

HoT was and continues to be only partially done so long as all the items they advertised as being a part of HoT have not been put into the game.

I’ll just leave this here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Disney_attractions_that_were_never_built

It’s not really the same situation and doesn’t alter my view that content already paid for should be provided.

It’s the same situation. Disney which is a themepark isntead of a themespark MMO talked about stuff they never delivered, for one reason or another.

Saying somethingt is partially completed, when it’s mostly completed is a different statement anyway. We’re not missing tons of stuff. We’re missing a couple of things out of a lot of things. And apparently the legendary fractal packpiece will be along any day, so we’ll be missing even less.

Celtic Lady.3729:

DaShi.1368:

The story is horrible. I can’t bear to go through it again. I’ve only sent one through.

Me, too. I’ve done the story partially on more than one character, but I’ve only finished it all the way through on my main. I didn’t like it. It felt rushed and didn’t have the proper emotion for the major things that happened. It had a contrived solution to a major problem that didn’t make logical sense and had no decent lead-up. And the final battle and victory didn’t feel epic at all, the way Zhaitan’s victory did.

And yet, one of the biggest complaints about the Zhaitan fight was how anticlimatic it was. I’ve seen far more complaints about Zhaitan being anticlimatic than about Mordremonth being anitcilimatic.

That’s not to say the Mordremoth fight isn’t buggy, because it is, but hitting 2 to kill Zhaitan in a minute or so is one of the biggest complaints about the original story.

Celtic Lady.3729:

HoT was and continues to be only partially done so long as all the items they advertised as being a part of HoT have not been put into the game.

I’ll just leave this here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Disney_attractions_that_were_never_built

Dante.1508:

Vayne.8563:

Dante.1508:

It really has very little value these days, for some unknown (to me) all loot was removed O.o
Its really very linear right through, it starts strong but progresses to trahearn and god awful Orr etc which is so draggy and a grind to play..

Honestly i’m not sure why it was never revamped, the loot removal was its death knell..

He’s talking about the expansion pac story not the personal story.

I see my apologies i thought i was in the GW2 general forum.

Well I interpreted the “For the expac…” to mean for the expac. I suppose he could have meant do the original story so that he could get to the expac story but that’s far from clear here.

Dante.1508:

wrathmagik.3518:

I really didn’t understand all the complaining about HOT until I played it.

I mean really, most times when people say things are “hard” (at least in my case) I can faceroll through it. I"m fairly good at games.

When I hit HOT with my other half in game, it didn’t even feel like the same game. Heres a few reasons why.

-Casual? Not anymore. Expect to die. ALOT.

-Exploration/hearts: Gone! As far as we’ve seen so far. Now you just usually get your face eaten by some rampaging champion plant dinasour.

-You can’t even take a minute to take in the scenery and enjoy the game without dying most of the time.

---

I am not saying HOT is bad. But is certainly doesn’t feel like the game I’ve enjoyed for years.

I hope the next expansion is nothing like HOT.

I haven’t tried it yet but this overly obsessive push to make everything super hard for the sake of it, isn’t fun at all, i do not need insane challenges in my gaming experience, i play games to relax not be assaulted by frustration..

This does not bode well with me if they are going this direction in the story, i’ll see how it plays out but i might just drop the game again, tired of getting killed pointlessly all the time.. in the name of “Challenge”.

If i wanted Dark Souls gameplay i’d play Dark Souls.

The story itself isn’t particularly hard. Traveling through the zones is harder…but it’s not as hard as some people make it out to be. We’ve seen more than one post of peoples scared of the new zones who tried it and wondered what the big deal was.

wrathmagik.3518:

Soooo this formula boils down to punishing early adopters and panders to people who will just simply wait and get things for free that other people paid for.

Early adopters of EVERY game are punished by this logic. I bought Guild Wars Prophecies, Factions and Nightfall and EotN when it came out. I paid $170 for it. If I waited long enough I could get it all for $40. I’m being punished? lol

Okay then.

And yet many people got to HoT content even solo and had little or no trouble. There have been harder areas in the game. Some of the achievements in Living Story Season 2 are quite hard. Triple Threat is quite hard. The TA Aetherblade path dungeon is pretty hard. High level fractals have existed for a long time.

The change in difficulty is greater to people who didn’t avail themselves of the game.

Also Frostgorge sound in the last zone to have hearts. None of the three end game zones in Orr have hearts at all. Southsun Cove didn’t have hearts. Drytop has no Hearts. Silverwastes has no hearts.

Which means the three last zones of the game, and every zone introduced since launch has no hearts. This stuff is already in the game. The same game you’ve been playing.

The problem is people avoided difficult content and expected level 80 content to be faceroll.

Most of the difficulty in HoT comes from knowing your enemy and thinking strategically. There are other areas in the game that demand this.

If all you’ve done is run the champ train in queensdale or if you’ve leveled mostly in an EoTm train, of course you’re going to be destroyed by things, The less harder content you’ve done, the more HoT will kill you but then many of us didn’t have those problems.

Thamriyell.5490:

Vayne.8563:

pickpocket.2071:

If I was you I would wait til it’s on sale for $10 or $20 hot was a massive disappointment for me, if you lik a lot of grind and no loot with no new armour than buy hot. Also be prepared for no new content til the next expansion, Because let’s be honest it’s been how many months since hot was released and still no living story 3. But don’t worry I’m sure it’ll be here promoted with the next expansion along with legendary weapons……..

Unless you count raid wings and the PvP tournament, and gliding in central Tyria and the Shatterer redesign, and a patch coming out like in five days with changes to a bunch of stuff. And there are new armor sets, just not many. New weapon sets too. In fact, the expansion was a massive disappointment to some people and a lot of fun for other people. Plenty of people have said they think it’s worth their $50.

Also, the LS should be coming out after the third raid wing. The third raid wing comes out, if it follows the other raid wings, in June, which would mean July for the Living Story.

Nah just be safe and get it on sale for $10 or $20. If you like it, then you get even greater value for it for less, which is a win. If you don’t , well at least you saved $30-40 on it, which is in a way also a win.

If you want to spend more money to support ANet, you can always just use the $30-40 you saved to get gems or something

See to me it’s not safe. The funnest time to play any expansion to me is when it releases at the moment of release. That’s worth $20 to me easily.

It’s like watching a movie. I can see a movie when it’s free on TV with commercials if I want, but if I like a series, I want to see it sooner. The sooner you see it, the more you pay for it.

So if you play zillions of games, sure, you can wait, it’s no big deal. But if you like this game, sitting around for six months to a year without being able to play the new content is unnecessarily punishing.

Ashen.2907:

Vayne.8563:

False advertisement law, however, is dependent on intent to deceive. If someone advertises something that’s supposed to be delivered over time and they reasonably try to deliver it and then the situation changes and they don’t, no court in the US anyway would say they were guilty of false advertising.

Perhaps so, but a company in such a case could still face significant penalties imposed by the state for inaccurate representation of their product, even if there was no intent to deceive. I know that my company has paid quite a bit (as in millions of dollars) under those circumstances.

Keep in mind, also, that choosing to not expend the resources to deliver an advertised product because the company has chosen to spend them on a different product entirely might not be seen as reasonably trying to deliver the advertised product.

Actually, that’s not true at all. A company would not be imposed any penalty if they didn’t break the law. I don’t know where you’re getting that from.

The very MOST they would be required to do, by a court, is to refund the money for the purchase of the game, in in this case a portion of the money if the person played it.

In other words, if you join a health spa which advertises a certain machine and then they get rid of it 6 months into your contract, but you did other stuff in the spa, you’d not be entitled to anything.

I don’t know why you would think there would be penalties if no law had been broken.

Anet doesn’t have a PTS but we know that they have a server where people test stuff from things devs have said over the years (unless it’s changed). We have no info on it, such as who or how many, but we do know people do test stuff.

We even know of some guilds who tested raids before they were released, so players do test stuff.

Marius.3185:

I didn’t pay for gliding in open world. This is not an argument – I payed for content they promised so content they didn’t doesn’t affect my take on what they didn’t deliver.

I understand the difference between product and service, however that does not make anet immune to being called on it’s false advertisement. Advertisement made for Hot – the expansion in question. So yes – what I thought I was paying for and what I received are 2 different things so I have a right to declare myself unsatisfied just like you have a right to be satisfied.

And you do not have a right either to call others out because they feel like their maid should sweep the floors like she was paid for, not fix the kitten car. It may suit your fancy, but it really is this simple.

Also we’ll welcome you on the unsatisfied side once they scrap and delay features you care about and replace them with others you deem irrelevant. Because it will happen eventually if you (and apparently we should as well) accept this method

False advertisement law, however, is dependent on intent to deceive. If someone advertises something that’s supposed to be delivered over time and they reasonably try to deliver it and then the situation changes and they don’t, no court in the US anyway would say they were guilty of false advertising. Much like using the word lie, false advertising actually includes the intent to deceive customers.

Simple example, if a health spa advertises a certian pieces of equiptment, and no one uses it three months later and it’s taking up room, then they would be within their rights to replace that equipment with something that got used. And if someone tried to take them to court for false advetising, they’d lose, because they would show that the piece wasn’t used and it wasn’t a good value for most of their customers.

People who used other equpitment wouldn’t likely be entitled to a refund by law, unless they could somehow prove that they only ever used that one piece of equiptment and it still wouldn’t be considered false advertising.

You can talk about it all you want, but at the end of the day, there are laws that protect consumers and there are laws that protect businesses. Businesses often make business decisions that change the nature of their product.

An example of false advertising is when you advertise the strongest rope in the world and it’s not the strongest rope in the word. Not advertising content in an MMO that you start to deliver, see little interest, and change.

Pretty Pixie.8603:

Interesting to note that the only thing listed from HoT is gliding. Everything else was from before that.

At least one person shortly above you said HoT maps as his thing, so gliding isn’t the only thing.

Ellie.5913:

Vayne.8563:

Ellie.5913:

Eh hopefully something for people who don’t do fractals or raids….

They’re fixing some of the flaws that affect people with less time/casuals in the HoT maps. They’re making some changes to Fractals. They may be changing the dungeon rewards. That’s all the stuff we can expect in this update. That and the WvW changes anyway.

Eh nothing that would benefit me then, but if it helps others to enjoy the game better good

I also forget the scribing changes. This update is going to be really good for me, because though I enjoy HoT, it really is too grindy. Anet has acknowledged this. They said that they wanted people with different play styles, including people who have less time, to be able to play and enjoy HoT.

Presumably that means making it so you don’t have to complete metas to make progress, and possibly increasing loot/rewards for things other than just doing the meta. That’s my take on it anyway.

I’m pretty excited about it.

Ellie.5913:

Eh hopefully something for people who don’t do fractals or raids….

They’re fixing some of the flaws that affect people with less time/casuals in the HoT maps. They’re making some changes to Fractals. They may be changing the dungeon rewards. That’s all the stuff we can expect in this update. That and the WvW changes anyway.

pickpocket.2071:

If I was you I would wait til it’s on sale for $10 or $20 hot was a massive disappointment for me, if you lik a lot of grind and no loot with no new armour than buy hot. Also be prepared for no new content til the next expansion, Because let’s be honest it’s been how many months since hot was released and still no living story 3. But don’t worry I’m sure it’ll be here promoted with the next expansion along with legendary weapons……..

Unless you count raid wings and the PvP tournament, and gliding in central Tyria and the Shatterer redesign, and a patch coming out like in five days with changes to a bunch of stuff. And there are new armor sets, just not many. New weapon sets too. In fact, the expansion was a massive disappointment to some people and a lot of fun for other people. Plenty of people have said they think it’s worth their $50.

Also, the LS should be coming out after the third raid wing. The third raid wing comes out, if it follows the other raid wings, in June, which would mean July for the Living Story.

Redenaz.8631:

They’ve been surprisingly tight-lipped about what’s coming in the next patch. We know they’re going to be making a boatload of corrective changes (cheaper scribing, reversion to Alpine Borderlands, something to make HoT less time-intensive,) but it’s unknown whether there will be any new content, or even new non-content features, like the (pending) LFG tool update.

I want to be excited, but there’s not much to go on. I’m glad for the corrective changes, but it’s going to be a long time until next quarter, and LS3 doesn’t sound like it’ll start for a while yet.

Actually they said directly that Alpine Borderlands will NOT be coming in this patch.

Theories for the next patch. We know some changes are coming to WvW or a beta test of some kind. We know that scribing costs are changing. We know that changes are being made to the HOT zones to make them more appealing to people who can’t spend two hours to do a meta. We know there will be some changes to Fractals.

We have very little specifics. I don’t think we can expect new content but I bet there’s a boatload of changes to existing content to make it more accessible to more people.

Jayt.5690:

I guess it seems like a dumb question in hindsight but i guess i was wondering the same when i first got expansion. I was wondering if by getting HoT i now get better graphics or hotbar functions or something that adds to base game features or UI

There’s a lot of stuff you get with HoT that adds to the base game like gliding. And elite specializations. And a new profession to play. Access to all the guild hall features, like the arena and guild buffs.

Even something as simple as being able to pick up loot without spamming F is something you can only get if you get the expansion. You don’t get it automatically, it’s a mastery you have to level, but it’s only available to people who buy the expansion.

Ardenwolfe.8590:

Is it the end? It depends on who you ask. Right now, I’m one of those people who log in, do my dailies, and then log right back out to play something else.

Does that mean the game is dying?

In my book, that will be true when I, and many others, stop logging in at all. But, for now, we’re bored because we have nothing to do that interests us.

That will change when new updates and Living World returns. But, again for right now, there’s not much reason to stay in game for anything besides the dailies.

Hopefully, that will change come July or sooner.

Actually, that has changed already for people who play SAB and also for people who raid or even people who are participating in the PvP season.

This game has been ending since it started and it’s still not in trouble. Honestly people panic too much.

My guild has as much traffic now as it did a year ago and more traffic than it did two years ago.

battledrone.8315:

Obtena.7952:

battledrone.8315:

Obtena.7952:

battledrone.8315:

Obtena.7952:

battledrone.8315:

Obtena.7952:

No one should have bought HoT thinking it was ‘done’. That’s not even the nature of most MMO expansions. They get tweaked, bugfixed, adjusted, added to … lots of time.

It’s pretty hard to compare almost anything Anet does to other MMO’s because GW2 does quite a few things off the beaten path. I get the feeling that Anet goes out of their way to deliver not-typical game mechanics and features.

when i buy a product, i expect the main features to be functional..they werent
if they had put more of that creative energy into some ordinary (casual) zones,
they wouldnt be in this situation
SPECIAL content for SPECIAL users will give you a SPECIAL playerbase
SPECIAL doesnt work very well if you want money from ORDINARY players

Then your expectations aren’t aligned to most of what the MMO industry delivers and especially to how Anet has demonstrated over the last 3 years how they operate. Anet delivers content in chunks. The expansion was no different, except you actually paid for these chunks. You still weren’t going to get them all at once on release day and IIRC, Anet was pretty clear about that so stop pretending that your expectations trump Anet’s content delivery process.

1: the quality was much lower, than in any previous content
2: if you try to tell a paying customers, that he is wrong, he will prolly just leave, and take his business somewhere else

Those things might be true, but that changes nothing I’ve said. Your first point is a matter of opinion and is debateable, your second is just a truth of any market where vendors compete for share. Neither of them changes the idea that players that invent what Anet should do are going to be disappointed (unreasonably so) when Anet doesn’t deliver those to the expectations of those player’s made up fantasies.

Furthermore, if you think players are going to leave because of Anet’s approach to developing an MMO, they aren’t likely to find solace anywhere else; As I’ve stated, Anet’s approach doesn’t differ too much from anyone else’s. Let the players go where they want, but they aren’t likely to find a dev that acts a whole lot differently. MMO’s change, sometimes good or not good. That’s not unique to GW2. Good Luck.

opinion? debateable? how many of the core maps has shut down, and transferred players to a fresh one, with no progression?
how many of the core maps have buggy boss fights?
if the core game had HoT quality from start, this game would had tanked so hard

Your singular example is again, not changing anything I’ve said here. Maps closing inadvertently are bugs. All MMO’s have them. I’ve played lots of buggy games with bugs that persist for years. If you think that players are going to leave because of bugs in GW2, then they are going to be continually and equally disappointed in any other MMO they play to replace GW2 that releases new content. They all have bugs too. Good Luck.

first it was “opinion and debateable”, now “it doesnt matter, because everybody is
doing it”
yea…whatever

It’s not really debatable. This game launched with so many bugs, it was terrifying. Bugs that prevented personal story progress, sometimes for months. Many, many bugged dynamic events. Bugs in dungeons, some to this day. Bugs in so many aspects of the game. Hell culling in WvW made it so you often couldn’t see people attacking you until you were already dead. This game has always always always had bugs…but so have other MMOs I’ve played.

There were two week long episodes of LS season 1 that were bugged for achievments for the first four days. This isn’t something new and different. If anything HoT was less bugged than GW 2 at release.

The megaserver bugs are indeed serious. I’m hoping we see some fixes to the megaserver in the big patch this month and we know other fixes are coming.

But saying bugs are this thing that came with HoT and are somehow more than before is pretty much sheer fantasy.

Sure in other games, you’d make a new character, join a different guild, and your guild wouldn’t know, because you’re not automatically even on a friend’s list with an account, just a character.

I belonged to multiple guilds in Rift and no one even knew. All I had to do was change characters.

Most MMOs allow you to be in multiple guilds anyway. The difference is, here it’s out in the open.

Manasa Devi.7958:

I found Glint’s Lair nice to look at, but terrible to play through. Too many fights where you’re not fighting but manipulating the surroundings.

I was thinking of things like the 2 completely different fights against the Shadow of the Dragon, the teragriff boss, the stealth mission.

The HoT instances have nothing interesting going for them by way of mechanics, apart from the final one. And on top of that they have the temerity to actually call the parts where we’re just moving from one point of the map to the next part of the map “story chapters”. Ridiculous.

Yeah I don’t think I’m much of a mechanics guy. I don’t generally enjoy boss fights. That’s probably one of the main reasons why a lot of the stuff that appeals to other people doesn’t appeal to me. I’d rather feel like I’m immersed in a war zone than fight a giant boss.

To me, I feel like most of the new stories are “bigger” in scope, like the original Guild Wars 1 missions and they feel a lot more like the GW 1 missions. That’s huge for me.

Manasa Devi.7958:

I find it kind of sad that the actual gameplay of the HoT story instances is far less interesting than what was offered in the LS2 story instances. Only the final one comes anywhere close to LS2.

I actually liked the HoT story instances better than the large bulk of Living Story Season 2 instances. They felt different to me. I’m not really sure how to explain it.

It’s like the LS Season 2 felt more follow the numbers. They didn’t feel as cohesive to me, possibly just because there were long breaks between them.

I didn’t particularly like the layout of Glint’s Lair, for example. Boss fight, after boss fight after boss fight. That’s not that interesting to me.

I’d probably that I approach the game from a completely different direction than you.

battledrone.8315:

Ardid.7203:

I confess these threads are funny to me, because in the end, putting the focus on quantity is badly missing the point.

4 maps may sound little to some people, but I do prefer Verdant Brink to almost every other map I have ever known in any MMO. Auric Basin alone makes whole other MMOs pale IMHO, no matter if those have 20 or 50 maps of dull and mass produced “content”.

Some may say HoT is grindy. I’ll say it IS grindier than basic GW2. Yet HoT is still less grindy than any other option in the market.

My point is, even if the next expansion of “That oher MMORPG” features 5 or 6 times the content in HoT, I still wouldn’t buy it. Because those other games doesn’t offer anything even close to what GW2 gives me.

Good or bad when compared to what we wish the game to be, this MMORPG is still funnier, prettier, more interesting and more innovative (Lore, Art and Gameplay-wise) than any other I know.

Feel free to give examples to contradict me. I would love to try another MMORPGs with a quality comparable to GW2.

STOs last expansion had more content, way less grind, and it was FREE
it was pretty buggy, same as HoT

It’s also a six year old game with relatively few players that sells ships in the cash shop that are as powerful as anything you can get in game. Really isn’t pay to win, as far as I can tell, because you can beat content on ships that aren’t as powerful anyway, but it’s a different system altogether. I’m pretty sure, for example, that it’s easier to make content for Star Trek Online compared to Guild Wars 2.

That’s the issue with comparing games. Maybe when Guild Wars 2 is another 3 years old their expansions will be free too. Or maybe their expansions take a lot more manpower and time to create and they can’t be free.

And maybe Guild Wars 2 has virtually nothing like the ship selling that goes on to feed the game.

You have to look at the whole picture, not just details. Very often it’s hard to draw direct comparisons.

battledrone.8315:

Obtena.7952:

battledrone.8315:

Obtena.7952:

battledrone.8315:

Obtena.7952:

No one should have bought HoT thinking it was ‘done’. That’s not even the nature of most MMO expansions. They get tweaked, bugfixed, adjusted, added to … lots of time.

It’s pretty hard to compare almost anything Anet does to other MMO’s because GW2 does quite a few things off the beaten path. I get the feeling that Anet goes out of their way to deliver not-typical game mechanics and features.

when i buy a product, i expect the main features to be functional..they werent
if they had put more of that creative energy into some ordinary (casual) zones,
they wouldnt be in this situation
SPECIAL content for SPECIAL users will give you a SPECIAL playerbase
SPECIAL doesnt work very well if you want money from ORDINARY players

Then your expectations aren’t aligned to most of what the MMO industry delivers and especially to how Anet has demonstrated over the last 3 years how they operate. Anet delivers content in chunks. The expansion was no different, except you actually paid for these chunks. You still weren’t going to get them all at once on release day and IIRC, Anet was pretty clear about that so stop pretending that your expectations trump Anet’s content delivery process.

1: the quality was much lower, than in any previous content
2: if you try to tell a paying customers, that he is wrong, he will prolly just leave, and take his business somewhere else

Those things might be true, but that changes nothing I’ve said. Your first point is a matter of opinion and is debateable, your second is just a truth of any market where vendors compete for share. Neither of them changes the idea that players that invent what Anet should do are going to be disappointed (unreasonably so) when Anet doesn’t deliver those to the expectations of those player’s made up fantasies.

Furthermore, if you think players are going to leave because of Anet’s approach to developing an MMO, they aren’t likely to find solace anywhere else; As I’ve stated, Anet’s approach doesn’t differ too much from anyone else’s. Let the players go where they want, but they aren’t likely to find a dev that acts a whole lot differently. MMO’s change, sometimes good or not good. That’s not unique to GW2. Good Luck.

opinion? debateable? how many of the core maps has shut down, and transferred players to a fresh one, with no progression?
how many of the core maps have buggy boss fights?
if the core game had HoT quality from start, this game would had tanked so hard

Core maps have always had buggy fights in one way or another. Ogre Wars would like to have a word with you.

Dante.1508:

It really has very little value these days, for some unknown (to me) all loot was removed O.o
Its really very linear right through, it starts strong but progresses to trahearn and god awful Orr etc which is so draggy and a grind to play..

Honestly i’m not sure why it was never revamped, the loot removal was its death knell..

He’s talking about the expansion pac story not the personal story.

Maximillian Greil.1965:

Vayne.8563:

Maximillian Greil.1965:

Consistency in a product. When you buy coca cola, you get coca cola. If you buy it again you get coca cola. Sometimes, they have different flavors. If you buy vanilla coke, it tastes like vanilla coke. Point is, coke never discontinues classic coke. They add flavors, and they give what’s advertised, but the core product doesn’t change.

Let me explain what is wanted: If something is advertised, we want what’s advertised. They need to seriously think about weather they should advertise what they can’t make. They also need a core product that is consistent. Core Guild Wars 2 hasn’t had any updates to what the base of it is.

Now while this is being done, we ALSO want new stuff. What is wanted is both, not one or the other. Is this unreasonable? maybe, but it’s what was advertised.

I think you should say I instead of we.

Raids were advertised, but I think it’s obvious many people don’t want them in the game at all.

I don’t think anyone would complain that raids were in the game if they also delivered on everything else.

But since part of the problem seems to deal with resources, and we’re not getting everything, that becomes a valid complaint. Id’ rather have legendary weapons in the game than raids.

battledrone.8315:

FrizzFreston.5290:

The Ventari Ele.5812:

lol, I remember when HoT was announced and they were giving us a little details on what was coming.

A lot of us were asking where is all the content?! Surely this isnt it
And as usual the fanboys all rose up saying Anet wouldnt give us all the details, there was obviously a tonne more in the expansion, and other things would be released throughout the year.

Now that they know there isnt any more stuff, they only thing these fanboys can say now is “either buy it or dont buy it”

I still wouldnt call HoT a half an expansion, call it what it is, DLC! A small update charged at unreasonable prices!

The problem is that it’s obviously a fundamental expansion with alot of tech that usually takes the most time to produce, that will carry on for years and future expansions to come. This doesn’t give the content creators alot of time to create actual content being held back by that, even more so with all the bugs and miscalculations coming from said new features. Hence the first quarter patch didn’t add much content either. And the next focusses on rebalancing HoT, scribe and whatever else.

All the while, as a player, you have fairly little play space that actually has said new tech.
So, the price might be “worth it” in terms of things added to the game, except to your average gamer this really means very little, as there’s “not enough content”(subjectively) using the new systems.

Though some great content has come from HoT. Forexample, the guild hall has festival decorations added which are deemed really amazing by some, which, by a stretch, are actually part of HoT. Obviously any future updates could be explained as not part of the HoT package, but the causal relation is there.

okay, but while they are making their new systems, many players are leaving
so, who will those new systems benefit?
meanwhile, they have a unique underwater system, that they never use for anything
gliding is very disappointing IMO

Many players have always left. Some have come back. Leaving an MMO is a rule not an exception. They’re making these things for people who stay and come back obviously.

My method usually involves getting on maps earlier, particularly something like dragon stand. Get there early, and join a commander on a closing map. Usually the commander moves themselves to group 2, so everyone can easily join on him when the map closes.

That usually means a new map, so it won’t close, and enough people to get the job done. I don’t think that’s ever failed for me.

DaShi.1368:

System redesign = grind.

According to some people, leveling equals a grind. I don’t particularly agree, but there are people who do. There are definitely people who see the new system is a grind. There are definitely people who don’t see it as a grind.

You can get everything unlocked super fast by grinding, or you can take your time and not grind and get stuff unlocked.

Not everyone shares the same opinion on what grind is.

DaShi.1368:

Vayne.8563:

Ardenwolfe.8590:

The Ventari Ele.5812:

lol, I remember when HoT was announced and they were giving us a little details on what was coming.

A lot of us were asking where is all the content?! Surely this isnt it
And as usual the fanboys all rose up saying Anet wouldnt give us all the details, there was obviously a tonne more in the expansion, and other things would be released throughout the year.

Now that they know there isnt any more stuff, they only thing these fanboys can say now is “either buy it or dont buy it”

I still wouldnt call HoT a half an expansion, call it what it is, DLC! A small update charged at unreasonable prices!

Bam. +1

And yet I never said buy it or don’t buy it. Most DLCs aren’t four zones and a new class and a new PvP type and a new map for WvW and precursor crafting and guild halls. Like it or not all that stuff was added, plus the story, elite speicalizations, and a completely changed Fractal system, plus masteries including gliding.

You can call it a small DLC but it doesn’t make it a small DLC.

This isn’t reasonable by any standard I know of.

At least we all agree that it’s closer to DLC than an expansion.

I don’t know how you got that from what I said, because I didn’t say it, or imply it and I disagree with it. I don’t see it as a small DLC or closer to a DLC than an expansion.

I do consider it an expansion that’s lighter on content and heavier on system redesign, which oddly is what we were told we’d be getting.

Ardenwolfe.8590:

The Ventari Ele.5812:

lol, I remember when HoT was announced and they were giving us a little details on what was coming.

A lot of us were asking where is all the content?! Surely this isnt it
And as usual the fanboys all rose up saying Anet wouldnt give us all the details, there was obviously a tonne more in the expansion, and other things would be released throughout the year.

Now that they know there isnt any more stuff, they only thing these fanboys can say now is “either buy it or dont buy it”

I still wouldnt call HoT a half an expansion, call it what it is, DLC! A small update charged at unreasonable prices!

Bam. +1

And yet I never said buy it or don’t buy it. Most DLCs aren’t four zones and a new class and a new PvP type and a new map for WvW and precursor crafting and guild halls. Like it or not all that stuff was added, plus the story, elite speicalizations, and a completely changed Fractal system, plus masteries including gliding.

You can call it a small DLC but it doesn’t make it a small DLC.

This isn’t reasonable by any standard I know of.

Might help people if you explained why you feel that way. It’s sort of hard to respond to the little information you’ve put here.

Hero points can be done on multiple characters. Matstery points can not. So if you do something that gives you a hero point on a character, and then you do it on another character, you get another hero point.

Mastery points don’t work this way. You need to research and find out exactly what you need to do to get more mastery points. For example completing each chapter of the story in HOT gives you a mastery point. Completely all the achievements for each chapter gives you a second mastery point per chapter.

Every single adventure gives you a mastery point for attaining silver and another for attaining gold. You don’t need all of them to max out but some are rather easy to get silver, and couple are relatively easy to get gold.

Also, there are some changes coming to HoT that might affect adventures soon, sometime this month.

Maximillian Greil.1965:

Consistency in a product. When you buy coca cola, you get coca cola. If you buy it again you get coca cola. Sometimes, they have different flavors. If you buy vanilla coke, it tastes like vanilla coke. Point is, coke never discontinues classic coke. They add flavors, and they give what’s advertised, but the core product doesn’t change.

Let me explain what is wanted: If something is advertised, we want what’s advertised. They need to seriously think about weather they should advertise what they can’t make. They also need a core product that is consistent. Core Guild Wars 2 hasn’t had any updates to what the base of it is.

Now while this is being done, we ALSO want new stuff. What is wanted is both, not one or the other. Is this unreasonable? maybe, but it’s what was advertised.

I think you should say I instead of we.

Raids were advertised, but I think it’s obvious many people don’t want them in the game at all.

DaShi.1368:

Vayne.8563:

DaShi.1368:

Vayne.8563:

The only way what you’re saying makes sense is if you know the percentage of people that normally prepurchase anyway. Do you?

And neither do you. Now, I’m making no claim about the accuracy of the poll. I’m merely stating that it would be disingenuous to cite one part of the poll while calling the part disagreed with fundamentally wrong.

The prepurchase contingent is higher than I thought it would be.

I think so too. Some people may have been trying to counter the results.

Nah, it’s not disingeuous by a long shot.

Simple example. If I say I believe most people hate something and I see a poll that shows a better than expected result, that’s all I’m saying here. I’m not saying the poll is accurate.

I said I don’t believe it’s a good time to poll that and I stand by that assessement. I think the number of people voting would logically be more against it, because people are angry.

That’s ALL I said. I didn’t say the poll itself is a bad poll, I questioned the timing of the poll. And within that context I still saw a higher percentage of people who would preorder than I expected.

There’s nothing disingenuous about that.

Questioning whether the poll can deliver accurate results is saying that the poll is not good. Accuracy is the key component of any polling. Any question to accuracy requires some doubt of the results. Cherry picking those same results to push an agenda is disingenuous. Your example is not saying what you think it is.

The poll is not the be all end all of anything. I cited it as a single example. My opinion of casuals who don’t follow the game vs hard core who do is pretty well established on these forums.

Even without the poll, my understanding of the situation doesn’t change. A small percentage of people post outrage and say it’s the end of the world and at the end of the day it amounts to very little because a decent percentage of the playerbase simply don’t follow the game closely.

The poll changes nothing about what I said, whether it’s accurate, inaccurate or anything else.

And still none of this talks to the question of the topic. Is the expansion half done. I say it’s more like 85% done, but you know, it’s fine. People can keep bandying this 50% figure about, but where’s the evidence?

DaShi.1368:

Vayne.8563:

The only way what you’re saying makes sense is if you know the percentage of people that normally prepurchase anyway. Do you?

And neither do you. Now, I’m making no claim about the accuracy of the poll. I’m merely stating that it would be disingenuous to cite one part of the poll while calling the part disagreed with fundamentally wrong.

The prepurchase contingent is higher than I thought it would be.

I think so too. Some people may have been trying to counter the results.

Nah, it’s not disingeuous by a long shot.

Simple example. If I say I believe most people hate something and I see a poll that shows a better than expected result, that’s all I’m saying here. I’m not saying the poll is accurate.

I said I don’t believe it’s a good time to poll that and I stand by that assessement. I think the number of people voting would logically be more against it, because people are angry.

That’s ALL I said. I didn’t say the poll itself is a bad poll, I questioned the timing of the poll. And within that context I still saw a higher percentage of people who would preorder than I expected.

There’s nothing disingenuous about that.

DaShi.1368:

The poll overwhelming shows that people are not planning on prepurchasing. If you are going to accept that third who still will, you have to accept the rest. You can’t just cherry pick the results and say that anything different is wrong. Well you can, but that would be dishonest.

The only way what you’re saying makes sense is if you know the percentage of people that normally prepurchase anyway. Do you?

The prepurchase contingent is higher than I thought it would be.

DaShi.1368:

Vayne.8563:

Obtena.7952:

Good analogy and excellent explanation. Unfortunately, I don’t think it will affect many people’s stand on the issue.

You’re certainly entitled to that opinion. I don’t think most people have a stand. Even after the announcement a poll here showed a third of the players here will preorder the next expansion. Considering we’re more likely to follow the game than more casual players, I think many people probably don’t have a stand at all. Some do, certainly but maybe not as many as you’d think if you were one of those people.

Wait, you attack the poll as incredible, but then cite it as a source here. So only the part that you agree with is right? I agree that many people don’t have a leg to stand on, just not the same people as you believe.

I said it’s a bad time to do the poll and STILL it’s showing a third of the people will preorder. I think it’ll be higher than that.

That’s the point isn’kitten The poll was put out at a time when people were the most salty and it still shows that a large number of people would prepurchase. It doesn’t make the poll good, but it certainly is something you can make a point with. If anything the poll is slanted against what I’m saying due to timing and STILL it shows it’s not as big a deal as some people are thinking.

So yes, I have no trouble reffering to that poll because if it’s inaccurate, it’s inaccurate favoring those against me.

Sird.4536:

Vayne.8563:

Obtena.7952:

I consider that an irrelevant comparison. When I pay for GW2, I pay for a service. When I buy something at a store, I get an item.

When I don’t get an item, I don’t get it. When I get partial service, I still got something. It’s also handled differently by the vendor as well. In this case, I feel that my $50, even with the partial service, was more than the value I paid for the service. I see why people don’t understand or want to ignore that difference. Makes them look more like the victim.

To me, it’s more like a cable service. It’s advertised with 110 specific channels and maybe I get 107 channels, but the three channels I’m not getting are three channels that don’t interest me.

Because there’s so many other channels, it’s not an issue for me.

Sure I could go and demand the channels I’m missing, but if I’m not going to watch them it’s not worth my time.

On the other hand, if one of those channels was a channel I wanted specifically, sure I’d be angry and complain.

It all depends on your focus.

At the end of the day, with 80 channels, I’d have plenty to watch, so it doesn’t matter if there are 20 channels I’m not getting. Yes, it’s nice to see that I’m getting 100 channels but at the end of the day it’s not going to make a difference to me, one way or another.

What about if those 3 channels were the only channels you wanted to watch but in order to do so you had to buy the other 107. I don’t care for the 107 other channels, sure it’s nice, my main point of ordering was the 3. Then what?

Then you’ll cancel your subscription with that cable provider and you’ll move onto a cable provider that offers you what you want.

And in many cases, including mine, there isn’t a “cable provider” right now that comes even close to offering me what this one does. That’s the problem.

I’m not into open world PvP, in fact, I dislike it. I’m not particularly into dungeons or raids. I want a game focused on the open world, without open world PvP. I’m not sure where you think I’ll find that provider.

Those that want something else will leave and they’ll be replaced by people who want what this provider has to offer. I’m not saying that you shouldn’t be upset, or annoyed, or angry.

I’m saying half an expansion is hyperbole. There are things missing, but it’s still more than half an expansion.

Obtena.7952:

Good analogy and excellent explanation. Unfortunately, I don’t think it will affect many people’s stand on the issue.

You’re certainly entitled to that opinion. I don’t think most people have a stand. Even after the announcement a poll here showed a third of the players here will preorder the next expansion. Considering we’re more likely to follow the game than more casual players, I think many people probably don’t have a stand at all. Some do, certainly but maybe not as many as you’d think if you were one of those people.

Tigaseye.2047:

Vayne.8563:

Tigaseye.2047:

Vayne.8563:

Guhracie.3419:

Vayne.8563:

Healix.5819:

Behellagh.1468:

1) There was simply no reason for Level 500 Food and Jewelry. It was the presumption of the players that these crafts would go to 500.

“We’ll expand all crafting professions to allow them to reach a new milestone: 500 points!” (2013)

There’s also the Xunlai Ingot

From the same article:

“As always, the content above is subject to change as we test and iterate on these systems.”

Changing your mind on doing something isn’t quite the same as not finishing it. For example we were going to put a shed in our back yard, but we decided on a gazebo instead.

They probably did some tests, and figured the time, energy and expense to level it wouldn’t be worth it, so they changed their minds about doing it.

You’re making a completely different argument than that quote was meant to express. Context matters. If you read it, Behellagh said that the players made the presumption that the two crafts would be expanded to 500. The quote shows that it was not an assumption made by the players, but it was based on actual information given by ANET.

Also, anyone who is using the “And you wonder why ANET doesn’t communicate with players” argument: Yeah, it’s super unreasonable to expect that people mean what they say. Why is it that in this format, it’s suddenly inappropriate to use official communication as a fact of intention? This is on the same level as politicians who make stupid statements and then say, “That was not intended to be a factual statement.”

You say things like that, and then you turn around and act like anyone who questions the various development plans that are currently “on the table” are people who just want to complain about everything and if ANET says they’re doing something, then they’re doing it and that’s that.

How do you even live with that kind of cognitive dissonance going on? It boggles the mind.

I live with it quite easily because I know the company is doing stuff that I like. I was told straight out we wouldn’t have gliding in core Tyria, but we do.

I find that adds to my game a lot more than more raids being out, or even more legendary weapons. It’s something I use frequently.

That’s how I live with it. I don’t get everything I want, and sometimes I don’t even get everything mentioned, but I get other stuff I didn’t expect to get.

Thing is, while I personally agree with you that gliding in Central Tyria is a far more fun and useful addition than more Legendaries I won’t make, I have to recognise that; a) that is a totally subjective opinion, on my behalf and b) they did, specifically, promise people the legendaries, in their marketing materials.

So, while we may be happy, in this instance, that doesn’t make it an OK thing for companies to do, in general.

…and in fact, if other types of companies did something like it, they would be in big trouble.

For example, if you bought a vacuum cleaner and they (intentionally) delivered a lawn mower, while you might be happy, as you happened to need a lawn mower even more than you did a vacuum cleaner (and felt it was worth more), that wouldn’t make it OK, if other people who bought the vacuum cleaner didn’t happen to agree with you.

…and OK, you could say that they are only changing a part of the vacuum cleaner, but even that isn’t really OK.

For example, if you ordered a vacuum cleaner that used bags and they sent you a bagless one instead, you would be under no obligation to accept that change, even if they (and some other people) viewed it as an improvement.

You are supposed to get exactly what you ordered; not a different thing, even if it could be viewed as better.

That’s kind of how trade works.

These analogies, everyone single one of them is pointless for a lot of reasons. Guild Wars 2 isn’t a vacuum cleaner. A court would have to determine if it’s a product or a service and both products and services come under different laws.

The whole false advertising commentary, at least in the states, presupposes intention to deceive by the company who creates the advertisement. That has to be proven in court and so far, no one can prove that intention to deceive exists. Laws exist to protect consumers, but laws also exist to protect companies.

If Anet had every intention of doing something and they say they’re going to do it and they don’t, then we have to actually prove they knew before they said they were going to do it that they couldn’t do it at that time. If no one has proven that, then it’s not false advertising. Nor is it a vacuum.

What you’re paying for when you purchase an MMO is access to an account and a world. That’s what you pay for. The specific nature of what you get in that work is determined by a lot of different factors, including fan pressure.

Simple example, HOT was advertised with a new WvW zone. That zone WAS delivered and many people, I’m sure most people, didn’t like the zone. So if Anet brings back the old zone due to player pressure, and that zone isn’t here anymore, they’re not actually false advertising, or breaking a promise. They made the zone and players asked for the old zone back.

In effect, the new “promised” zone won’t be here, but it’s still not false advertising.

All this comparing HoT to a vacuum cleaner is pointless. One thing is a service and one thing is a product. They follow different laws.

What you’re really paying for is a game key.

A better analogy would be buying a season ticket to a theme park based on the idea that one ride would be available and then finding out they weren’t going to finish it due to reasons.

In the mean time though, you’ve gone to the park and ridden other rides and seen other shows. That’s the best analogy for an MMO, particularly a theme park MMO.

You may not like this, but this is by far the best anology. A theme park isn’t a vacuum cleaner and sometimes planned things don’t happen. You could try to sue the theme park, and you could even ask for a refund. The problem is you’ve already used part of the product.

If you can PROVE that you bought this only because of one feature, and you never entered the park and did other stuff, or you can prove the theme park never had any intention of adding the attraction, you’d be right.

In this case those, with Anet furnishing 25% of the content listed, you’d have a very hard time proving in court that they didn’t intend to go further.

All they’d have to say is we did start providing this content and it proved unpopular with the percentage of the playerbase, so to give people more content they did want, we changed tracks.

And that would be enough to quash anything you could prove in court.

Well, while that may, or may not, be true legally speaking*, that is almost certainly not how most customers will view the situation.

…and how people view the situation is almost as important as whether they do, or do not, currently have a legal claim to compensation.

The more people lose faith and trust in the games industry, the fewer customers it will retain.

That is the point I was trying to make.

Not whether someone (in some undisclosed location) could, or could not, successfully sue Anet over this, at the current time, or not.

But sure, let’s go with the theme park analogy.

Let’s say someone bought a season ticket, for a theme park, on the advertised promise of a new ride, which was due to be opened at some point during the season.

Then, when they had got the ticket and had visited the park a few times, on the offchance the ride had opened (because, for some reason, the park simply refused to provide a specific opening date, or time) and had, perhaps, had to hang around the park waiting, they had then finally found out there was, in fact, going to be no new ride.

Or, not the specific ride advertised, anyway.

It wouldn’t really matter if they had tried to fill their time while waiting and/or had tried to console themselves, after they had found out there would be no new ride after all, by using some of the other attractions, would it?

Almost anyone would, after all – I certainly think it’s fair to say the “reasonable man” would.

They would still have been severely misled by an advertising flyer and would have made that purchase, mainly for a specific thing, which then wasn’t delivered.

Therefore, I think they would almost certainly be entitled to a refund (in the UK, at least).

I don’t really think the intention to add the ride, or not, would matter either.

If you promise a specific thing, to customers (or potential customers), you are supposed to deliver it; not just intend to deliver it and then change your mind (even if it’s for good reason).

…and this applies to services, too.

I provide services, with my business and I can’t just decide that I won’t provide the ordered service, for whatever reason, or that I will give the client some other service, instead.

If I can’t, or don’t want to, provide the specific service, I have to refund them.

…and OK, they are paying for a specific service, as opposed to a “theme park” of services, with me, but still.

Yes, things can change in games and adjustments may need to be made, but if that is the type of industry you find yourself in, you should either try to promise less (or sound far less definite, in your advertising), or be prepared to refund disappointed customers, from time to time.

Not that I’m saying, for one moment, I think everyone should ask for a refund, if they have used and enjoyed other aspects of the xpac.

I hope most people will be fair about the situation.

My point is, that I think they (reasonably) could, in the UK at least, if they wanted to and that is not a situation a company should put itself in.

*As you say, a lot of that probably depends on the customer’s location.

For example, I live in the UK and the British government were talking about making video games viewed (legally) like any other product and subject to the same consumer laws.

Not sure if that has been implemented yet(?), these things often take a while and I haven’t been following it avidly enough, but still.

I’m not convinced that taking away legendaries will affect most players and I don’t really believe most players are making a list and checking it twice. I don’t think most players are so vested in that feature that it’s going to tear down people’s confidence.

I do believe people who were already doubting will take this much harder than people who just log in and play the game without doing a lot of research, without following every feature.

There are people in my guild who don’t even know legendaries were cancelled yet. Most players aren’t following the game closely in any kind of detail…in my opinion anyway.

This isn’t like the amusement park guaranteed space mountain and then didn’t build it. To some legendaries are a major major feature and to some it’s a non-feature, that was 25% delivered anyway.

My wife made the staff. She’s not looking forward to making another of the new legendaries anyway, because they’re so costly. So she’s not particularly sad that they’re not bringing out more legendaries.

The question is how big a feature was this, for how many people. I think there’s a very loud minority screaming about this, but I don’t think this is a major percentage of the playerbase.

Will some people see that badly? Sure they will.

And many won’t as well. But I think a whole lot of people see the content drought badly, in comparison anyway. That has to be the main priority.

We don’t know because those areas have been cut off from us. We know that Cathan fell under the influence of the Ministry of Purity and expelled the nonhuman races. We know that Elona is cut off by Palawa Joko. They’re cut off in lore.

I would surpise me if Anet didn’t have more lore coming that ties into the old game. A lot of things in game hint at it.

It’s just that games today take far longer to create than games ten years ago.

Guild Wars 1 was completely instanced and it’s easier to tell a story in an instanced game,because you control everything.

If you come out of a story mission in Fort Ranik, the events surrounding Fort Ranik can support the story, because it’s instanced.

But Guild Wars 2 is different. You have an instance which is completely different for people in different stories, and then you have a zone which depending on when you arrive there has it’s own internal architecture.

For example, if you’re doing the human story centered around your parents, there’s nothing in the zone that’s specifically about that. Because the zone isn’t instanced.

In Guild Wars 1 there was no real reason to go back to zones either, at least in normal mode. Those times were passed. But because zones were instanced you could change a zone so people who completed the story would get the War in Kryta content. You just can’t do that with an open world, at least not easily.

You couldn’t start a character in Prophecies and at level 2 jump into Factions. You had to get them to a certain point in the story. But that also meant if you started a Factions character and your friend started a Prophecies character, you couldn’t hook up. There are advantages and disadvantges to both types of storytelling.

Ashen.2907:

Vayne.8563:

Obtena.7952:

I consider that an irrelevant comparison. When I pay for GW2, I pay for a service. When I buy something at a store, I get an item.

When I don’t get an item, I don’t get it. When I get partial service, I still got something. It’s also handled differently by the vendor as well. In this case, I feel that my $50, even with the partial service, was more than the value I paid for the service. I see why people don’t understand or want to ignore that difference. Makes them look more like the victim.

To me, it’s more like a cable service. It’s advertised with 110 specific channels and maybe I get 107 channels, but the three channels I’m not getting are three channels that don’t interest me.

Because there’s so many other channels, it’s not an issue for me.

Sure I could go and demand the channels I’m missing, but if I’m not going to watch them it’s not worth my time.

On the other hand, if one of those channels was a channel I wanted specifically, sure I’d be angry and complain.

It all depends on your focus.

At the end of the day, with 80 channels, I’d have plenty to watch, so it doesn’t matter if there are 20 channels I’m not getting. Yes, it’s nice to see that I’m getting 100 channels but at the end of the day it’s not going to make a difference to me, one way or another.

I like this analogy. Captures my take on the situations as well. Some people really wanted the missing channels, others never intended to watch them in the first place. In either case the service provider is failing to provide the promised service. It just doesn’t matter to some customers.

My concern is the idea of setting a precedent where Anet feels that they can opt to not provide advertised and paid for aspects of future expansions because many people did not care this time. I do not care about legendaries per se, but might very well be affected next time.

In a sense that precedent exists. As long as people view MMOs as games that are products rather than access to a service, they’re fooling themselves. This is always been the case with MMOs.

How many MMOs started as a sub game and then went free to play and completely changed the nature of the game? A lot of people who loved Lotro before it went free to play, disliked it after.

During the months leading up to the free to play, people have spent $150 to pay a sub they could have just waited for and not paid at all, at least in theory. People here are complaining about 75% of the legendaries Anet was going to release over time. It’s a small percentage of what was described as part of the product…but it’s a service.

You are paying for a game key to have an account in an online space. Changing things is always something a company can do, and so is closing it (look at City of Heroes and Warhammer). Look at Star Wars Galaxies after a huge change that completely destroyed the game.

No one asked for that change, but those changes were made.

Saying something is coming and then seeing people not using it and changing what you’re offering is part and parcel of any service industry.

It’s not a precedent. It’s always been the case that companies who provide content and change the content they provide.

Free to play players can’t talk in map chat and they can’t even whsiper you more than once every 30 seconds if they’re not on your friend’s list.