1) i love the combat system (there is class balancing issues but the fluidity of combat is what i like)
2) Anet Art Team is one of kind (music, concept art, map design, etc)
The outnumbered buff wouldnt be so useless if the ‘numbered’ server didn’t have easy access to bloodlust, which is like stack another food all together. Blackgate has all 3 garrisons and stonemist atm… vs. 5/6 sos and mag servers (both lost a fair amount of guilds before s1, and more fairweathers than either would like to admit after getting stomped so much)
I think 2nd and 3rd should get buffs and make 1st work for it if the score gets crazy(i’m sure BG would complain, yet enjoy actually having people come onto the map to fight, so long as the buff wasn’t outrageous) or specifically designed around outnumbered % resulting in a buff. That does solve ‘very little’ but its a step in the right direction that can be made easier than a complete revamp of wvw, or server merging. Can’t say it wont help out until bloodlust is dropped in favor of outnumbered and see how it goes.
Mag has not lost any guilds. we actually gained 2.
I think creating more maps but having a smaller population cap on each map would be idea, but thats where EotM makes it possible.
On Maguuma BL watching these AoN one trick ponies try to kill people lol.
I’m trying to care about a random BGer posting unsubstantiated dribble but it just isn’t working.
Someone help me out here, why should I be upset by this BG random of whom I’ve never heard of before?
If by 1 trick pony you mean single-minded in our ganking outnumbered BG players as they cross-map with one trick stun thief builds and zerker warriors, then yes, I suppose we can embrace that terminology.
Fixed that for yah! You’ve never heard of me because you’re tier 2.
Guess this guy got ganked by Ho or Conv. Tragic.
Don’t be silly, I’m from Blackgate, I never die. Had fun stopping a few AoN baddies from trying to kill unsuspecting rangers and the like though. There was one asura stun thief in particular that had incredible tunnel vision, and he kept coming back for more! #DonateBagsToBlackgate
how am i stun thief? thieves only have 1 stun. and its fun to see it take 3-4 + BG running around in circle for 10min to only maybe kill me.
It appears he’s from KnT, so who cares. KnT calling AoN bad makes me giggle.
Sword Dagger stealth daze + Steal daze, with all the other wonderful steal traits and CD reduce, sorry matey. I didn’t know I had to type your build out for you. I wouldn’t surprised if you were even running the duration sigils and runes, even after the patch which stopped your exploiting of a broken duration rounding.
KnT? They’re full of bads, don’t even.
you clearly dont know what i am running except for the weapon set i am using lol.
you talk big but nobody actually know who you are or what guild you are repping. pm me if you want to back up all that talk
Considering I killed your thief twice to your killing me 0 times yesterday in 1v1s, I feel I backed myself up sufficiently. Oh and I did it with a zerker rifle warrior. You should be embarrassed. Not only should a rifle warrior NEVER beat a thief, but you’re running a dueling spec, I’m running a zerg spec, and I still gave your little asura a good punting. Nobody on your dead Tier 2 server will know who I am, that’s correct. On the flip side, no one here has heard of you or your pony guild. Maybe you should just stick to ganking rangers and uplevels, leave the forums to those with the right to speak.
well seems like you coward out. got nothing else to add to this anymore good day
lol sure if you are too scared to back up those claims again than ok i understand. when you arent in range of your zerg/camp/tower i understand it can be frightening.
On Maguuma BL watching these AoN one trick ponies try to kill people lol.
I’m trying to care about a random BGer posting unsubstantiated dribble but it just isn’t working.
Someone help me out here, why should I be upset by this BG random of whom I’ve never heard of before?
If by 1 trick pony you mean single-minded in our ganking outnumbered BG players as they cross-map with one trick stun thief builds and zerker warriors, then yes, I suppose we can embrace that terminology.
Fixed that for yah! You’ve never heard of me because you’re tier 2.
Guess this guy got ganked by Ho or Conv. Tragic.
Don’t be silly, I’m from Blackgate, I never die. Had fun stopping a few AoN baddies from trying to kill unsuspecting rangers and the like though. There was one asura stun thief in particular that had incredible tunnel vision, and he kept coming back for more! #DonateBagsToBlackgate
how am i stun thief? thieves only have 1 stun. and its fun to see it take 3-4 + BG running around in circle for 10min to only maybe kill me.
It appears he’s from KnT, so who cares. KnT calling AoN bad makes me giggle.
Sword Dagger stealth daze + Steal daze, with all the other wonderful steal traits and CD reduce, sorry matey. I didn’t know I had to type your build out for you. I wouldn’t surprised if you were even running the duration sigils and runes, even after the patch which stopped your exploiting of a broken duration rounding.
KnT? They’re full of bads, don’t even.
you clearly dont know what i am running except for the weapon set i am using lol.
you talk big but nobody actually know who you are or what guild you are repping. pm me if you want to back up all that talk
On Maguuma BL watching these AoN one trick ponies try to kill people lol.
I’m trying to care about a random BGer posting unsubstantiated dribble but it just isn’t working.
Someone help me out here, why should I be upset by this BG random of whom I’ve never heard of before?
If by 1 trick pony you mean single-minded in our ganking outnumbered BG players as they cross-map with one trick stun thief builds and zerker warriors, then yes, I suppose we can embrace that terminology.
Fixed that for yah! You’ve never heard of me because you’re tier 2.
Guess this guy got ganked by Ho or Conv. Tragic.
Don’t be silly, I’m from Blackgate, I never die. Had fun stopping a few AoN baddies from trying to kill unsuspecting rangers and the like though. There was one asura stun thief in particular that had incredible tunnel vision, and he kept coming back for more! #DonateBagsToBlackgate
how am i stun thief? thieves only have 1 stun. and its fun to see it take 3-4 + BG running around in circle for 10min to only maybe kill me.
From my Experience with Maguuma So Called Roamer’s is when its 1vs1 they start running for the hills or just run into they find guildies they turn on you right away once they out number you.
My Question back to BG Roamers, why do we only have to look for you next to your tower to find you? why are you not “roaming”?
AoN currently on mag run about 8-10
we are happy here, zerg chase us but that is to be expected and that is the difference between good roamers and bad. judging if you can handle the opposition in front of you
We don’t discuss population numbers as company policy. The first question is something we are going to be deciding based on the testing we will be doing. It is our initial design that the map is restricted to worlds from the same matchups, but we will evaluate that as we progress through the testing process to determine if that is the best version.
Can you say if it going to bigger or smaller than the current wvw map?
I would like to ask Anet a few questions concerning the population of this new map.
* I understand it is an overflow but are these overflow only populated with the 3 servers facing each other? Or is there a chance of us encountering and fighting other players from all 24 servers.
* What is the population cap to these maps?
side note: I would much rather see this map being an open brawl type map where there are NO Gates or siege weapon. nearly all servers except for the top 4 on NA will have atleast 1 map that has no queue or very little population. If they want to take down gates and capture a keep/tower/camp, they can always hop to those maps.
What you could add are open objectives where people run around and capture objective without having to deal with gates.
What is the size of the map? and is it only the 3 servers facing each other in WvW match up that will be playing against each other in this new map
(like can a tier 1 server find a tier 6 server in that wvw map and fight them?)
Venom having duration might sound good but in practice with venom share, it would be too strong. Think about having 5 ppl all with basilisk venom or devourer venom and tab targeting or aoeing the other team
we are talking about a 30 points traits + 1 elite skill + some other utility burned…. it has to be strong. Not being strong is as it is now, indeed it is hardly used.
Its a good idea but it would be too strong. i cannot imagine any guild raid not running it if it buffed to that. Simply put 4 condi necros with that thief in your 20 men raid and stack immobilize an than follow up with perma stun to the other team after their stability is down.
Lets not forget aoe attacks with venom affect everyone hit by the aoe so 1 well with devourer for 2 is the well + 2 second of immobilize inside the well for 5 ppl.
all those aoe skill will also become stun fields that you can not foresee.
I like the idea i really do but i wouldnt like being on the receiving end of it.
You expect this change to accomplish A —> release the profession from the mandatory 15points in CS trait line;
but I think it will actually accomplish B --> make deep critical builds less effective with a not needed nerf.
Make ICD reverse scaling with points spent will kill two birds with one stone.
General
I think thieves have little build diversity because of how some skills are designed.
Venoms:
Venomous Aura should not be put with Shadow’s Rejuvenation and it should have a much larger radius (like shouts) to be actually usable in combat
Venoms should last a given number of seconds – no charges.
Traps:
Triwire should work as “Line of Warding” (guardian’s staff wall) – once triggered, for a given time (5 seconds ?) it should knockdown every enemy that crosses it.
Needle Trap should affects up to 5 enemies in it’s radius.
There should be this trait: “Trapped Ground – traps use ground targeting”
Thank you.
Venom having duration might sound good but in practice with venom share, it would be too strong. Think about having 5 ppl all with basilisk venom or devourer venom and tab targeting or aoeing the other team
1) Hard To Catch is useless no matter where you put it. Tested it with stability and If you get hit by a disable skill with stab you get teleported.
+ its to a random location
2) Mesmer Staff 2 does the same thing as thief sword 2 except it has a low 10s cd
3)There is no reason to touch vigour when other class have perma vigour
4)No condi removal trait except in SA line and pain response. forcing us to go into SA for the condi removal in stealth
Hey Jon, can you comment on the possibility of changing Hard to Catch before dropping it down a tier?
Right now it’s just not a trait worth using, even in Master Tier. The fact that you can’t predict when it triggers means it is more likely to get you into trouble than out of it. A key example would be the trait triggering while you are in Shadow Refuge, moving you out of it and revealing you while before you may have just been knocked down or stunned. Another key example would be it moving you away from a downed target you are trying to stomp causing you to fail the stomp, even if you negated their disable with stability.
There’s also the fact that it doesn’t get rid of the disable used on you. If you’re stunned for 3 seconds, you’re going to be stunned for 3 seconds with or without the trait and will have to use a stun breaker regardless. The swiftness doesn’t help compensate for that either since you lose swiftness duration while you’re disabled as well. In it’s current state it is just not worth taking and moving it to Master tier isn’t going to change that.
1 more point, im pretty sure, but havent tested it in a while but if you do get disabled with this trait and have stability you still get teleported but you will have to test it out to find out
I’m not sure what you mean by instant, but this is currently the only instant weapon ability. We are not adding a HUGE cast time to this skill. This skill is going to have a 360 millisecond cast time. ~1/3 of a second.
Jon
You are wrong. Mesmer Staff 2 “Phase Retreat” does the exact same thing as Sword 2.
Our skill might,if you try to find an equivalent of initiative vs CD, than Sword might have a lower CD but to say no other weapon ability does this is tells me a lot about ANET.
On another note, if i was able to see all the stuns that are coming my way when i fight, than sure a 360 mili second cast time is more than enough but i have dodges for that (oh wait, thats being “tone” down) why would i burn initiative when i could use well timed dodges?
If you want to change this skill give us some sort of stability (adding stability on hard to catch fyi is not very useful cuze it will simply burn the up time of the stab to run back to the enemy) If i can do like so many other profession and run across kitten and stay in a fight “immune” to dmg and CC than ok take away our dodge and other skills you claim OP but by that point i might as well run warrior
As for gap closer, it is not a very good one if you compare it to shadow shot, it closes the gap but if they decide to keep backing off, than the skill becomes a crutch
With how Anet is currently changing thieves, I have little to no motivation to keep playing. If they decide to “tone” down certain ability, they should at least offer other option and change things up to allow us to discover new builds. but with the upcoming patch i can see none of that and it is making me really sad.
Shadow Arts V – Infusion of Shadow
Gain initiative when you enter stealth instead of gain it when using a skill that stealth you.
This is one of the best changes for the thief. I was waiting for it a long time. The change will prevent the perma invis thieves with dagger/pistol without hurting other builds that much.
This was a justified change that i think everyone would agree to.
Acrobatics X – Assassins Reward
Increased healing scaling by 35%. Moved to Grandmaster Tier.
I think this change has a good intention but will still be way less healing then the grandmaster trait in shadow arts.
On top of that the acrobatic trait line does not offer any good condition remove and the shadow arts trait line is far superior for survival because of the toughness and healing power.
Even a 100% increase in healing for this trait would make it less effecient then Shadow’s Rejuvenation with 50% stealth uptime. (50% stealth uptime is easy to achieve. Even without dagger/pistol).
I don’t think that this change will do much about the bad survivability the thief has.
If i didnt spec into SA for the Condi removal, any condi class would eat me alive. that is why i can not think of any alternative that is comparable to having 30 in SA and why i find s/p not as viable as s/d or d/p
If they offered other viable alternative to condi removal that didnt rely on stealth in the acro line, i might consider using assassin’s reward.
This is a huge change that will make thieves way more vulnerable to disables. It feels like the plan is to make the trait Hard to catch more attractive. But the random teleport can put you in a way worse position then you were before.
I think the change to shadow return is reasonable. However it needs some other tools for the thief to survive better to compensate this.
I would trade Shadow return for stability or If they made it so that larcenous strike steal stability first, it would reward thieves for smart play and with the current form of flanking strike/larcenous strike (1 boon and high ini cost) its not that good of a skill considering that guardians eles have 4+ boons up all the time. We have to spam and go through a bunch of “trash” boons before getting the one that matters regen/protection/stability/might.
Pistol Whip
Reduced the after cast on the first half of this skill by .25 seconds.
A change that was needed to make at least the first 1 or 2 attacks after the stun hit. It will help a bit, but to use it effective in pvp you would immobilize the target anyways.
Main problem i have with S/P is the lack of stealth. its a good set but lacks stealth for the condi removal that x/D or D/P have access to.
Why must the warrior be punished every time the classes are reworked? Anet says we dont mind the war doing great dps and control but not both?? The warrior hasnt had great dps since 2012 (430+ days & 2.5k+ hours played on war here). And the last bit of any decent dps build on war went out the window when zerk power + heightend focus got moved from adept to grandmaster!! And a burst on cd? Its an adrenaline based skill! Ha, the thing is warrior is well a warrior, please stop making them flower holders. If you want to nerf dps chars then take the theifs 13k backstab ability away, after all you took wars 13k eviscerate away (we couldnt get away with it either because we cant do it invisible). Please pick on another class for once?
lol thieves can only get 13k backstab on glass cannon and if they trait 30 in DA and Crit Strike. so its not like that build is viable in most scenario
was that last night? lol you should know by now that mag cares little about taking kitten. last night all we did was run with about 10-15 and hit jq and tc where ever we could.
I must disagree with the vigour change for thieves. Thieves are supposed to be the most mobile class in gw2. We should be able to dodge more and evade more than other classes.
I cant say that the Shadow Return nerf isnt justified, but Mesmers have Phase Retreat that is similar to Shadow Return. And if you are trying to justify the nerf by “buffing” Acro, than i think you dont think you have a good understanding of your Acro trait.
1) Hard to Catch is a terrible trait that send you to random location and it doesnt even break the stun/knockback/etc.
2) Assassin’s Retreat is junk
3) Assassins Reward heal is increased to 100hp/initiative with 300 healing power which is something I plan on testing but it seems viable option instead of Pain Response but doesnt justify a change to vigour or Shadow Return
I think the Critical strike line can be reworked considering that only Furious Retaliation and Side Strike are worth taking for non signet builds and Signet of Power and Signet Use are the other two trait that are worth taking in that trait line
To Recap: If there is one thing you should not touch is Vigour.
(but if this is going to be like Flanking Strike change than I wasted my time typing this)
It’s Tuesday and this match is already a non-stop PvD blob train. Props to Mag for still somewhat trying to play the game; this whole league has been an complete culmination of fail.
Im disappointed in SoS if this is how your server feels. If you came to gold league with that mind set than you should have stayed in silver league.
I use Target nearest to target the nearest foe.
the point im trying to make is that it is not as efficient as they may made it out to be. and that it can use some improvement
make it like overflow where anyone from any server can join in. To balance it out make it so that when you join that overflow, you are assigned the same colour your WvW match up is currently assigned.
Hi, is anyone else having issues with the new targeting system?
Most of the time I use nearest target key is to target the nearest target and not the player or champ that i am not even in range of.
If they wanted to implement this than i think they should give it its own unique hot key and allow us to decide if we want to use it or not.
In theory it is awesome since most of the time i dont want to target pets but when fighting a fully upgraded camp with 1 guy sitting behind the npc not doing anything, I would prefer killing the npc first than deal with him later.
Same with soloing towers. I want to target and kill the vets before killing champ therefore target the closest vet and not auto lock on the champ.
1) Anti-blobbing (20-30 is as big as it should get)
2) Reward in general (but most players in wvw do it not for rewards)
3) Asian server/league ( it is not their fault that they “night” cap everything but if they had their own league it would balance NA match up better.)
4) New Map
5) balance between different professions for WvW
Hi, with the league approaching and many servers are restructuring, please consider any other server but Maguuma to transfer to if your guild mainly play during NA prime time.
Our NA population is already saturated and have no need for more big NA guilds.
On the other hand if you are Oceanic/SEA or Euro, you are always welcome since we have barely anything during those time zone.
The general consensus of our server (SoS) is that we will be happy for Mag to get 6th and be steam rolled and curbed stomped and swirlied every week. We don’t want it. We aren’t going to throw matches, but we’re sure as hell happy to let Mag gain points through currently blowing out their weaker opponents this week, to get blown out in future weeks.
We had a nice big talk about it in EB tonight before JQ dominated all 4 maps again.
No it is not the general consensus, are you even apart of the internal SoS community, ie get on ts3, forums? The consensus is we play how we always have we’re not going to tank just to get to silver league. We have a oceanic population that will be pvdooring every week if that happens that would be horrible, on the other hand we aren’t going to stress ourselves and push us into gold league because of rng it may not happen.
At the moment Maguuma is feeding on Dragonbrands bloated rating, we all know ehmry gives up as soon as the weekend end so the score is no suprise to anyone.
To be honest it feels like the SoS community is pretty split on whether or not gold league would be good for the server. It’s a bit of a catch-22 for now, because unless SoS magically regains a strong NA presence one side of the world is going to be suffering. . While it is true that our Oceanic population would have a challenge in gold, I feel like the NA population would be pretty screwed in the long run.
Either way, SoS loses.
It’s the same in reverse for us. Our night time will be very sad in gold tier but NA will be very sad in silver tier. In essence, lol leagues
also our night time commander is used to the giant blob of 80 and only having 20…
Ya’ll sound surprised. Did I not mention we couldn’t even get back Hills from like four of you armed with AC’s Monday morning? On top of that, you guys took Bay with like five plus a single omega. Expect much the same through the rest of the week.
My suggestion to you Mags would be to get whatever achievements you want to get now in PvE while you can. You’re going gold and you’re not going to have such an opportunity again for quite a while I suspect. A break for you before your inevitable destruction, less curb-stompage for us. Everyone is happy.
lol once league start everyone will stop playing for ppt lol its gonna be do w/e you want time.
now is the time to play wvw to get as many rating as possible
Mag and SoS are now 9.8 points apart. It is getting very close.
To be honest, Mag is probably going to pull ahead of us this week. I don’t see us gaining any more points than we have right now (I think all of ours are being pulled from FA ).
Maguuma is typically a pushover during the weekends and EBay doesn’t play past Sunday; so if they have racked up this much by Monday morning, their decent daytime presence is going to wrack up a huge lead by Friday.
Probably won’t be more than 10 points apart by Friday but they’ll either pull even or slightly ahead.
Mag weekend and oceanic presence grew 2 if not 3 time its usual #.
same ppl just longer playing hours
with the upcoming leauge being 3 tiers instead of 2, 3 servers decided to fight for the last spot in gold tier.
I would like to hear everyone,especially current and past opponents, opinion on who they think can PPT their way to Gold League between SoS, Mag, and SBI.
If they want to take the buff away they have to split up.
Total points at the end of the week are almost totally decided by coverage.
Coverage means server 1 has more and larger zergs, and… wait for it, more and better roamers.
The Bloodlust control points are decided most of the time by roamer type players who prefer that kind of spvp type play on an open map.
Maybe occasionally a zerg will stop doing a karma train and wipe a few Bloodlust control points, but day in and day out, those are decided by the roamer population of each world.
If your words has better coverage, that coverage extends to roamers and roamers decide bloodlust points.
pfft yeah like roamers enjoy having a their 40 men zerg righ around the corner stealing their fun or having opposing 40 men zerg ambushing poor roamers
well it looks like there will be some competition for the last spot of gold tier between sbi sos and mag cuze i know most mag would rather have to fight blobs than not fight at all.
Hey DevonCarver, us bottom tiered server would like for you and your WvW decision buddies to join us over the next course of 7 weeks of WvW fun.
And I mean for you guys to actually participate. Not looking at stats and numbers from data collection. Join one server, a week and actively participate
Then actually get back to us with a written report on how fun it is
Sincerely
All bottom tiered servers that has kittenised by league
I will be on NSP throughout the duration of the season. And I will be getting the meta achievement.
How about this Devon, how about you play on a server that didn’t just conveniently get placed at the top of the Bronze League. How about we pick a server for you. Hmmm how about Isle Of Janthir, or Devona’s Rest? How about you and the developers actually swallow the pill you make us take for WvW?
have yo not seen the wvw stream today? they arent pvpers. more of a hold capture point type.
during that stream and with the ppl they had, if i saw an orange sword my first reaction would be to kill that. they instead decided to take a tower.
their vision of wvw is different than many poster on the forums.
well if they throw it i would love to steal as many points as possible to make it to the gold league. and i know if mag took ppt srs we can beat sos. sorry anyone below rank 7 you guys just dont field enough for a fun time in wvw
Fact is no major WvW guilds have transferred to Magumma in months. People are being kind when they say we did considered Magumma BUT NO GO.
I mean, admittedly, they were here for less than a month, but we did have Agg transfer over.
Before that, BURN/GOAT I think were the most recent. Worm and aZn are relatively new, too, I think.
But we don’t really recruit. A few other guilds have talked to me about transferring over, but generally we want them to transfer to servers around us so we can fight them, not superstack.
Uhm whenever i get pm about transfer to mag for NA timezone, i usually refer them to other server such as SoS that are lacking NA so Im not bored. Also when Agg was on Mag, nice ppl, but god was it hard to find fights. with Agg/Ark/VR/Pyro running around with our pubbies on top of that it was nearly impossible to find fights
Maybe Sol is the 1 zerg-bot that didn’t get banned in The Great Cleansing of Kaineng.
You know what’s better than rubber banding via zerg recruiting of terribads that quit from boredom or hop to the next bandwagon so they can queue v 5 in T5-8 on their way back up again? Everything.
Edit: Oh look, CNB ran off to join the night crew of SoS. Blobbers gonna blob.
I would go along the lines of : " It’s not as good as the other server choices at the moment " Look at the leaderboards and analyse the upcoming league system.
I disabled cookies tracking ; they are bad.
Idk, I think Mag is a good choice. We’ve performed extremely consistently in WvW over the past 6 months and our community is very solid. The only thing we lack is SEA/Oceanic.
Honestly, I think your Pvkitten turns some people away.
Also, there isn’t a real compelling reason to join. “Maguuma, kings of the NA only servers” doesn’t really grab attention.
Cut to last week when you had BP saying they thought SBI could beat you….
We love you guys on SoS, but don’t expect anyone else to come to that conclusion.
you do realize that nobody on mag play for ppt anymore. if we did, i think mag vs sos score would be a lot closer than previous match up. Most of our match between our 2 server a lot of our NA population simply logs off cuze there is not enough ppl to fight.
Personally i hope mag get stuck with the higher tiers. currently i know some of the wvw veterans on my server have be pveing/playing other games till we get a server where there is a more target rich environment.
25 Magoombers try to ambush four of us by hiding behind a hill. Of course, some of their name tags stick out around the hill so we see them and the ambush fails. They chase us across the zone, failing to kill any of us with their 25.
That infuriates them so much that they chase us all the way into the legendary guards to try to kill us. Many of them die. They stay and fight for awhile, but slowly start losing people. Eventually they give up and we kill the ones too slow to pull out with the rest of their zerg.
So talked to a Maguuma person, I’m going to assume this is how the whole server thinks of open field fighting.
accurate
also, ebay, come be the try hards to our slacker. we need each other.
Ebay NA + Maguuma NA = Pretty dominant NA against T1. But only if they coordinated via voip like Mags used to do so well. (no offense, I dont know if you are still at the level you were 6 months ago.)
We are totally worse than we were 6 months ago. The people who used to defend have burned out or been alienated with the direction of WvW development. It’s pretty obvious that if you aren’t on the WXP treadmill you are doing it wrong. Attrition means less and less people show up every day. Bloodlust worked in my case for about 3 days until the novelty of new toys wore off.
ERR, I MEAN MAGUUMA IS THE BEST.
most of us stop caring with defending. PPT is for meh. the only time we really defend is when we fight oceanic zergs
servers should not be able to hold the orbs if they do not own all 3 objectives.
if a server caps 3/5 and get the orb buff than leaves, and lose 1 of the 3, they should lose the buff.
