Guild Wars 2

I tried to find a use for whirling axe before and I couldn’t find it practical outside of refilling Adrenaline or tagging mobs.

I didn’t notice the nerf that much. Only time I really noticed it is when I had condis on my character. The nerf is probably more noticeable in SPVP in wvw with the nerf to crit damage it was an overall buff.

I agree with this thread. GW2 is too forgiving.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

There’s a really easy way to measure this and you’re not doing it.

1) Untraited axe chain is one per 3.6s. You can test it if you want but that’s what it is.
2) Test actual traited attack chain speed by doing it and measuring it. No one cares about splitting startup and aftercast, just measure the whole thing.
3) Divide #1 by #2.

And that’ll give you your average DPS boost. So easy.

Thank you for finally showing us your math now we all know why you are wrong.

See attached screen shots. This was a recorded axe chain at 30FPS using fraps without DWA. Then the File was opened in sony VEGAS to count frame by frame and examine when frames happened. My axe chain starts at 0 It ends at 3.20 And that is being very generous. It is no where near 3.6 Now I know exactly why your math is wrong.

So judging by this I can back up the WIKI and say wiki is 100% correct the totally activation time of the axe chain without DWA is 3.15 with an after cast of .15 to .20 that makes me 100% certain that a arena net employee put that data in there because its right.

You know what that means? Means with DWA your axe chain is around 3 seconds after you added aftercast back to the equation.

Which means there is about a .15 difference between DWA and Non DWA.

And that .15 difference is your DPS Increase. I which I call very small. And its no where close to whatever % you think it is and its no wonder that pure GS destroys Pure AXE now this trait cant compensate.

So I guess I was wrong it maybe makes this trait a 4-5% DPS increase. If you can see it that way. I see it as totally meaningless.

After I tested how long it took to take down 10 Heavy golems with and without DWA and there was an average of 11 seconds no matter what happened. With DWA being only slightly faster but still and average of 11 secs. either way DWA or no DWA.

Thats the problem If you started with 3.6 and didn’t account for aftercast I can see why you and everyone else thinks its a 8-10% DPS increase it certainly does not work out that way with the proper numbers to start with.

Ya maybe.

Condition duration is capped at 100% vs targets with 0% condition defense.

So I mean If someone had -40% condition duration your condition duration vs them is capped at 140%. which would be 100.

However if your condition duration is 140% and your target is 0% your condition duration is not 140% it is only 100% capped.

Make any sense so thats why its not recommended to go overboard on condition duration becasue then all of your duration becomes useless to targets that have 0%..

Which is the majority of targets.

But hey If you want them to nerf this trait you are more than welcome to build a specific build that is only useful l for 8 seconds for a fraction on the players that you maybe fighting.

All while making sacrifices in other stats that would benefit you a lot more vs everyone else and vs warriors not during those 8 seconds.

You be the judge.

PS:

They will never change this trait back to how you want it. Becasue the orginal intention of this trait is condition immunity. It just wasn’t implemented very well to solve that problem. ANET knows what they did and they did it intentionally. So GL with that.

Ya so I ran that test and will upload the video later on average it made no difference. With DWA and without DWA heavy golems died in 11 seconds. I honestly think that most of you are on som kinda placebo effect becasue the skill is more responsive you you think it is so much better. From my testing this trait is a 3.6% DPS increase. Which is kinda funny that some people still think ANET would give them something really good.

Sure I will run the experiment tonight. The reason why I chose to do 30 secs originally is ANET has a habbit of reusing the same math or codes then implementing it in different ways.

I wanted to compare the stack 10% frenzy to Sigil of rage and to other skills that used the same math like last chance and frenzy. I saw a pattern in all these skills they all regulated the DPS by using differnce Cool downs with differnt durations but they all averaged out to be the same.

Which made me suspect that ANET used the same MATH but instead of like a 50% increase for 6 seconds with a 60 second cool down. Or 3 seconds at 50% CD with a 30 sec cooldown or 4 secs with a 40 sec cooldown.

They used the same math but instead of regulating it by giving it a long cool down they nerfed it to 10% and made it perm.

So using this trait in the same amout of time it would take one of those skills on Cool down equaled those skills in that time.

The problem I found with that ment if you wanted the same mialage out of this trait as you would get for lets say frenzy that would mean you needed to attack for 60 seconds.

Which means if this is in fact true you are better off using frenzy every 60 seoncds when the cool down is up than this trait.

Thats correct. The wiki would lead you to believe all there there is no citation to this.

That the total axe chain is 3.15 if you add up all of the activation times.

In practice the total time is more like 3.30 or 3.33 And the after cast is .15 to be very generous

Which is pretty significant. which means that DWA only reduces the axe chain to 3 seconds. Down from 3.15 A difference of .15 seconds. As the wiki would lead you to believe.

And when I compared the difference between DWA and NON DWA I saw a total difference between the two of 3.679% when just comparing 1 chain to the other chain.

Which made a lot of since. As after I had landed 3 chains I reached around the 10% mark which allowed me to land the 4th axe chain 10% faster. which happened between 9-10 seconds. Than I would of without the trait.

Cool I glad that you guys are in agreement that hypothetically its better.

I don’t think that I am right I know that am I am right. None of them have been able to provide any evidence that supports thier claims. Other than they just say this skill increases X amount of DPS. But have yet to provide proof that there math exists anywhere outside a calculater lol.

These guys sit there with there calculators with their fail formulas and keep saying welp it says this so it must be so then the rest of us sitting in game not being able to reproduce what they said. Enjoy your sigil of rage trait. Anyways I am done eff you alll.

except I never cheery picked durations to support my claims. I picked 100% becasue this trait increases aspd by 10%. Which is a reasonable thing to pick. Let me throw you a bone though since you still dont get it.

Show me a scenario that supports your claim that DWA allows you to land a big hit that you wouldn’t of otherwise been able to land without it…. As I have clearly shown anything under the 1st three chains is negligable.

And you say 10 chops but dont understand that chop is only the 1st skill in an axe chain.

DWA in 10 seconds.
Chop 1 hit
Double Chop 2 hits.
Triple chop 3 hits.
Chop 1 hit
Double Chop 2 hits.
Triple chop 3 hits.
Chop 1 hit
Double Chop 2 hits.
Triple chop 3 hits.
Chop

Non DWA in 10 secs
Chop 1 hit
Double Chop 2 hits.
Triple chop 3 hits.
Chop 1 hit
Double Chop 2 hits.
Triple chop 3 hits.
Chop 1 hit
Double Chop 2 hits.
Triple chop 3 hits.

Entire chain 6 hits. 1st hit does least amount of damage,
Since the very 1st hit is the 1st hit to be modified by 10% it sets tempo of all subsequent hits. Because each hit of the axe chain is an individual skill…….The whole axe chain is a chain that is tied together by aftercast inbetween they are held together by somthing called after cast. After cast doesn’t move. DWA modifies the entire chain as if it was 6 seperate skills lol Where each hit has an added after cast of a different amount attached to it. Thats why a 10% difference is a lot smaller than people think.

Thats why if you stop auto attacking in the middle of a chain and do not resume your chain resets and you have to start all over with chop.

That is why your guys math is wrong becasue you have averages but you don’t know the algebraic values of after cast so your calculations are wrong.
Edited for typos

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Uh that’s straight-up wrong.

Even if not all hits of the auto-chain do the same amount of damage. You don’t accumulate hits under the table until you reach an integer then you magically get an extra hit out of nowhere. Damage is averaged over time. There’s no such thing as “you only get a full DPS increase if the last hit connects”. At the 10-hit mark you’re not getting one extra hit’s worth of damage, you’re also that much further along in the chain which means you are going to hit the big final hit sooner. Thus, the average increase is 10%.

Look at it this way. If a mob needs 10 hits to kill and you attack at a rate of 1 per second, you need 10 seconds to kill the mob. If you attack at a rate of 1.1 per second, you only need 10 / 1.1 = 9.09 seconds to get 10 hits to kill the mob which is, surprise, 10% faster and thus 10% more DPS.

Your “you only get damage when you get an integer number” claim is almost as silly as your “your DPS doesn’t actually increase because RNG might cause you to deal less damage sometimes” argument. I don’t think you understand how averages work, you’re literally playing at understanding basic math which is really, really sad.

I pretty much through arguing with you your basically assuming the game works in a in certain way. Where I never assumed anything I recorded a video and ran a test then counted hits frame by frame under time lapse. In a controlled experiment.

You on the other hand came up with an assumption of how you believe trait worked and ran a mathematical equation based on how you believed the game mechanics worked.

We came with 2 seperate conclusions. Your conclusion came from averages because that’s all you had to work with was math.

My conclusion came from raw game data where I didn’t use any mathematical equations I visually observed what was happening and then I analyzed what happened from a recording.

So I believe my analysis to be more accurate than yours. You can believe what ever you want at this point I really don’t care. You can keep your averages I will keep my visual inspection.

I believe that this trait. Is the same DPS boost in 30 seconds as sigil of rage.

Sigil of rage gain quickness for 3 seconds cool down 30 seconds.
Where sigil of rage procs once every 30 seconds to give you a 50% ASPD boost.
Which then averages out to be the Same DPS this trait does in 30 seconds. That is essentially how lame this trait is. How many people do you know that think sigil of rage is awesome? I know none.

The difference is sigil of rage is a whole lot better if your only going to attack something of 5-10 seconds and thats it. This trait would take a whole 30 seconds to average out the same damage as a axe equipped with sigil of rage did in 30 seconds.

Ya I know my conclusions are hard to follow how exactly I came to them. There is a method to the madness as after counting hits frame by frame in my video that skill was actually chop of the 4th axe chain. So your DPS of 10 seconds is basically 3 axe Chains + chop. Your DPS without the trait in 10 seconds was 3 axe chains.

Your DPS in 5 seconds. Under both trait and non trait both builds could land the final double chop on the second chain in 6 seconds.

You think my math is mest up I do too but thats how it works. That makes your DPS in 30seconds X number of axe chains + three Chops. Not tripple chops just 3 regular normal chops that start at the beginning of your axe chains. Thats why I said its extreemly underwhelming.

Ya swords can do both physical condition and condition damage. Final thrust on a target that is lower than 50% HP is like landing eviscerate on a target with axes. Rip offhand does nice damage also when it crits.

There was a build posted ahwile back that was a power based sword/sword LB build for wvw. It worked well.

Check out this thread His build was a little differnt than yours. I didn’t agree with all of his choices and he posted a video and his build.

See if this helps.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/warrior/New-Video-LB-SS-Power-build/first#post3661181

His build is at the top of that thread.

This is his video of sword sword power build roaming wvw.

Ya I think throw bolas incase they clear the bow immobilze then you still have some back up to land immobilze. You can also try taking 10 out of disapline and putting 10 in tactics for leg specialist so you have a 1 sec immobilize when you throw blade trail. That wouldn’t be enough to land 100 blades but it maybe enough preasure to force somone to use their condition clear. I would try adding thow bolas 1st and if that is not enough try adding specialist also then you have 3 immobilizes.

spvp is condition trash meta thats why.

It’s fine for 1v1. Mobile strikes works good for clearing immobilize. It does nothing for chill. So it will work good vs opponents who do not use chill. It will also work good against opponents who do not pack any condition clears. Mainly you are releying on that single immobilize to lock someone down.

Kick as you know is not a very good skill for going melee as it kicks the enemy out of melee range It will however serve 1 purpose of clearing immobilize.

You maybe able to use Kick in conjunction with a bow to keep an enemy at bay for a couple seconds otherwise the utility is not very helpful.

When using burst mastery with cleansing ire means that instead of reoving 3 conditions at full adrenaline you only remove 2.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Why would the DPS increase ramp up over time? Clearly you don’t understand math.

Because your spread sheet or whatever you used to calculate DPS clearly doesn’t contain variables for aftercast or you clearly don’t understand the aftercast game mechanics.

why would it ramp up or why would DPS differences start out small then end up larger.

With flat DPS increase like lets say sigil of force it adds a flat bonus to your damage. And your damage is consistently larger all of the time correct? That is a easy thing to calculate.

With a attack speed increase your damage increase is based on time how long it takes to do damage. If I said you do 1000 damage per hit it is how much damage you do in 10seconds you do 10,000 damage normally. Then said this trait is 10% faster. Then you would theoretically do 11,000 damage in 10 seconds.

No so fast. Because each hit in an axe chain does not do eqaul amounts of DPS. Not only does each hit of an axe chain not do equal DPS but each hit of seperate axe chains using the same skill chop of one chain and chop of another chain do not do equal DPS. Even if both hit are crits. So instead of 11,000 it is more like 10,100 or something. As an example of a single chop being a low damage skill.

Now we need to add after cast what If I told you that a hit takes 1 second to do but it has a .5 after cast. I remove 1/10 of the cast time I am at 1.4 seconds. Not .9 seconds.

Now lets add some things up

1.4X10=14
1.5X10=15
In 10 seconds you do 1 extra hit? Correct. Which equates into the DPS increase of whatever value that extra hit was lets say it was chop. So it equates into the lowest value we could possible add to an axe chain. Certainly not the highest valuse and absolutely not an average of 1/10 of what an entire axe chain is worth. It is worth whatever damage that one hit was.

Now lets say We want to measure the DPS increase in 5 seconds.

1.4×5=7
1.5×5=7.5

See you are looking at .5 less DPS in 5 seconds where in this case there is no such thing as a .5 A .5 = zero hits. There is not such thing as rounding UP you only round down. So there for yes a DPS increase but no measurable DPS increase. Where as if it was 10 seconds we can actually emasure that. Which turns out not to be anywhere close to the 10% that people said. Its maybe not even 5% but I have to run that math again.

Conclusion does that mean that a DPS increase is not there?
NO
Does it mean that the DPS increase is inconsequential under average circumstances given the margin of error and the margin of attack damage variation.
Yes.

Because warriors are easy to play and in pugs that means less chance there is a bad one statistically. Where as the level of bad warriors varies, a warrior can be bad but not that bad. Where as the level of bad insert other class here varies more where they can be either good or really bad.

Wethospu.6437:

Just because he can’t measure it doesn’t mean it wouldn’t exist.

Sure, it is hard to tell difference of one attack but if you see difference in 10 attacks you can assume that there is also a difference in one attack. If there wasn’t any difference in one attack then what would cause the difference for 10 attacks?

I think you just explained it clearly too many assumptions and blanket statements. saying that DWA is a flat out 7-8-9-10% DPS increase is not only an assumption its a blanket statement.

From my assessment it starts out at probably more like a 1-2% DPS increase which is very hard to measure as you say. Then eventually ends up more like a 5% DPS increase when certain criteria is met that those assumptions are based on.

See thats where I disagree with the rest of you. And the reason I won’t keep repeating is I counted the hits and I counted the time in between those hits. And I concluded that it was within a margin of randomization initially and within the margin of error later on. Because from my testing the DPS increase as it is stated initially isn
t enough to overcome a margin or randomization to definitively state that it is a 7-8% DPS increase since this skill cannot be calculated in the same way other DPS increases are calculated.. Later on I plan on demonstrating golems going down faster without DWA because of randomization.

I know we can for sure say a DPS increase is a DPS increase no matter how we try to rationalize it. I agree with you. But you also have to agree that a piece of poop is also a piece of poop no mater what color it is or how it smells.

Some players complain about warriors becasue basically this class is so easy to play.

Warriors just can press buttons and win so they say. Their sustain isn’t necessarily larger than other classes who have built for sustain. Often that leads to stalemates with the warrior. They can no longer kill the warrior and the warrior can no onger kill them.

This to me sounds like balance. These people don’t want balance though they want to kill the warrior with 100% success rate. So they complain that warriors are too hard for them to kill. And they complain that they have to make too many sacrifices to sustain and warriors don’t.

They fail to realize though that warriors have no choice but to build for sustain and they do. They have the choice damage or sustain. The only choice warriors have is defense and then build the rest into damage.

So these people want to nerf that defense and nerf the damage too till eventually warriors are free kills again for them. In all fairness there are a few things that I agree are too strong and could be toned down slightly. However I do not agree with this warrior witch hunt as there are far more broken things found on other classes that have been totally ignored.

Long bows are better in spvp than wvw. Since in wvw you can just walk or dodge out of the fire field. In spvp if the firefield in on a point thats kinda hard to do. As bad as rifles are I’ve allways found them to be superior in wvw because of killshot and volly on unsuspecting players.

S/sh + LB becasue shields have saved my life so many times when I am alone and warhorns have saved me none. shield stun + final thrust works good for landing it.

I would go GS/Sword+shield though since I know it doesn’t work great but I know it works for roaming.

your trait allocation is fine for swords. I’ve experimented many times to try and squeeze more DPS out of pure sword and havnt been able to without going 6 at least in arms and 6 in str.

Your build is fine you don’t need mobile strikes with those runes and that food though so either change that trait to something else or allocate that point into another tree.

almost anything works in a zerg ball. your success as a zerg ball rests mostly on the commander, your groups numbers, and how well you group moves as a unit. Less to do with individual skill other than just knowing not to over extend. Ferocity nerf had no effect on zerg balls. The same thing that has always worked with them still works today.

Use the 2nd one Flissy posted or use the Phalanx str build for pugs.

The builds that people keep linking to by nike are for speed runs with preformed groups and are based on a specific group composition with players running other builds that will synergize with it.

These builds simply are not optimal for Pug groups and solo. Because all the calculations that were done on them are based under a lot of assumptions that are only present in preformed groups that do speed runs and I would go as far to be based on DnT speed runs where specific other classes doing there job and doing it well. Lastly they are based on you as a player playing perfectly where you don’t mess up any of your rotations, ever go down, or have to dodge out of a fight.

If that describes you congratulations you fall into the 1% category of the GW2 community if not than chances are you are an average joe like the rest of us and just need a build that is going to work for you under any scenario that you throw at it.

This is where we differ in opinion. I think people don’t really understand how it works.

Sorry for my bad paint skills. Once DWA has been given a significant amount of time the pink line that represents the DPS difference moves slightly but its only after “Damage over time” not “Damage per seconds.” you hits become slightly faster but the time in between those hits never changes. The after cast speed never changes. So the white lines remain the same. The only thing that eventually changes over time to make a measurable difference is the pink line.

And my gripe with it is initially it makes little difference trait or no trait. For the 1st couple axe chains it is not a real measurable DPS increase. After the 3rd AXE chain you will have hit the target 1 more time with a single chop skill than you would of without the trait.

And where that comes into play is usually I need to dodge after the 1st couple of axe chains. Which then resets any DPS increase this skill would of given. Or a trash mob dies in under 2 axe chains. OR I am in PVP where I would be lucky to get a single axe chain off if any. Or I am running GS/AXE-Mace solo and my weapon swap is on Cool down before 3 axe chains ever occur. In which case Maybe I could land 100 blades which would be more damage than that single chop would provide otherwise.

Conclusion:

The trait makes a measurable DOT or damage over time increase. But without give time GW2 has too many complex variables including minimum and maximum weapon damage where your damage is inconsistent enough where not given enough time I could probably make a video where DWA loses to a non traited DWA if my crits were lucky.

Warrior Feedback.

Strength

Burst Precision: Burst skills have a 100% chance to critically hit.

Sigil of Intelligence is better than this trait. Any build can use sigil of intelligence There is not point in using this trait for any build. 6 point investment is too high. This should be either a 2 point investment or a minor trait.

Arms

Dual Wield Agility: Your attack speed is increased by 10% when wielding a sword, axe, or mace in your offhand.

This trait is extremely underwhelming. DPS Tests have shown this trait will only increase DPS after 9 seconds of Auto attacking with AXEs for example. Which will simply equate into being able to start a 4th axe chain slightly faster than an un-traited axe chain. There are 10 point trait investments that add more DPS than this trait.

If a trait is a grandmaster trait it should be a lot better than this. Either buff the trait to 20% or make it a master teir trait. Even as a master tier trait It would still be underwhelming.

Defense

Rousing Resilience: Gain up to 1000 toughness when you break out of a stun, based on your level.
This trait has zero practical value. It should be deleted from the game.

Tactics

Phalanx Strength: When you grant yourself might, you grant 6 seconds of might to nearby allies as well.

This trait is awesome love it. Good job on this one. Give the person who thought this one up a raise.

Discipline

Brawler’s Recovery: Removes 1 stack of blindness when you swap weapons.
An interesting trait on paper. In reality there is no practical way this opens up warrior build diversity. The trait costs too much and it does too little. Doesn’t solve the issues it was intended to solve. Or those issues do not exist to begin with.

robertul.3679:

This shows warriors are still hung up on the old “meta” of “4 zerks”. Grasping for every single % and arguing with passion about it. They do stack eles in record runs where warrior is merely bannerbot but in their heart they dream about the ever increasing number of 100b now that the new metas have killed it. Also pure axe is like super boring.

Honestly it has far less to do with arguing over percentages. And more to do with making sure ANET knows this trait is bad. Explaining to everyone how underwhelming this trait really is. So people do not unknowingly think it is better than what it really is because they didn’t independently test it for themselves. And even if they did test it didn’t test it extensively enough to know that they may have been attacking slightly faster but not necessarily doing more damage because of after cast.

I think if the trait was a 20% aspd bonus it would be really decent for a 6 point investment. Most people around now were not around when frenzy was a 100% aspd boost. what we have now as frenzy a 50% boost is a mere shadow of what the original game mechanics were. What we have here 1/10 of original frenzy. And some people went ape crap over it like it was the best thing that ever graced the face of this earth.

As it stands now there are 2 point investments that equate into more DPS than this trait does. And that shouldn’t be so. If you drop 6 points on something it better be worth it. ANET thinks by inserting things into skill trees that are not worth 6 points they are improving their game. And wonder why people complain all the time. And its not a warrior specific debate, other classes got more useless stuff than this.

I really could care less about pug zerk metas or pro speed run metas. Its all PVE carebear stuff to me. My only problem is when sheepish people blindly follow. Or people who ignore common sense because they can’t seem to grapse things don’t work in game like the work on paper.

What I run is similar. But has a different twist and is much much cheaper.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fJEQNAR5ejMdU2ZVIOewJaAlgCbofBnn5AoA0lFA-T1SBABlqWhxPAAzUCOwRA4KlGdpM7GVVA5gAgiuBe2fAgLAQAAEA25R35R35RLFwSKjA-w

Ok yeah you are right your talking about two separate things though. Let me explain. What works in SPVP doesn’t work in PVE. And in WvW what works well there doesn’t necessarily work as well in SPVP for various reasons.

Hambow is one of the best builds for SPVP because of the AOE mainly and condition removal synergy or Cleansing IRE and Bows F1. The control on the hammer helps lock down people its not there as much for DPS as it is for locking them down. This is all optimal for holding a point where you need to stand in a circle.

GS/LB works well too but you basically reley on immobilizing the player then weapon swapping to land 100 blades. This isn’t really reliable and its only good for kill bad players in my honest opinion. This might work ok in Hot join.

Niether one of those builds works exceptionally well in WvW. They both can work but there are other options that work a lot better becasue wvw uses PVE gear and you have the stat spread to use other builds that are more viable in open world combat that is not about holding points and more about mobility and ganging people or zerging where individual skill means nothing and builds mean even less.

The longbow/GS could work just Fine in PVE if you just want to camp the GS and use the longbow as a utility weapon though. If you are set on using bows pick that build.

And yes the might stacking build is the META for running in pug groups. Which is the majority of the groups that you will find yourself in unless you are in a PVE guild that runs a meta. In which case eles can stack might and warriors can focous on DPS.

Where your critical chance is high enough to land 100% crits or high enough to reliably land both arrows of Auto attack on Longbow constantly that Auto attack of long bow is better than the auto attack of riffle.

Your critical damage modifies 2 hits on the bow vs 1 hit on the rifle so the AA damage of the bow is better.

To make your build better if you really want to go down this path of bows and swords is use rampager and not rabid. BOWs and swords are hybrid weapons and if you want the most possible damage out of them both you have to go Hybrid build.

You need power, precision, crit damage, and condition damage. Flissys reply to you was mean but he she is right about one thing with using bows you should be running support.

That means runnign both the banner of DIS and Str Traited banners for cool down reduce and Phalanx str. You should also be using empower allies for 150 power to each person. Use the might on crit sigils in your weapons and sigil of battle for might on swap.

Then at least the support you provide to the group can overcome the DPS loss that running this build brings to the group.

You said that I wasn’t around when such and such happened. What difference does it make if I was or wasn’t and how do you know who is around and who isn’t. I wasn’t even talking about strifes build however you assumed I was. I was talking about how we get to point a to point b. Why is it that eventially people settle on the “best” build. Its never because one person says something is best. Its because something just is and that doesn’t have everything to do with damage as much as it has to do with it working.

I suppose now that we can change traits whenever we wantt the argument can be made that builds don’t have to work great, they just need to work for the content they are designed for and thats it. Well thats great.

Lastly I could care less about impressing anyone, I don’t even care if I am liked. Maybe you think that I think I am a pro or something lol. Don’t try and get into my head becasue you wouldn’t like what you find there. And the last thing I would ever want to be labled as is pro pver in GW2. That is ultimately what people argue over is PVE in GW2 give me a break man. Maybe PVE matters to some people a lot more than others that’s fine to me. For now on I will let them argue over what build kills AI that just sits there and takes it or is highly predictable to the point were there is a guide on how to beat every encounter with 100% success rate and you can do it even if you are bad..

Tree.3916:

edit: you weren’t around when strife created the 20/25/0/10/15 original gs+axe build, but I was.

Strife didn’t create that build though and nike didn’t create the 30/25 build either. Being an advocate for a build is one thing creating is another thing, You cant compare the two builds. One build is based on Berserkers power and heightened focus being a 10 point investment. The other is post nerf based on nerfed /buffed zerkers power in the 30 point posistion. Its not even a fair comparison they are builds based on what was availible at the time.

And don’t assume I have not been around. I have been around since BWE and Id be willing to wager I have more time logged on my warrior than anyone you know.

As you refer to something as being “significantly” different better or what have you is far fetched to say the least. A better word for what you consider “significantly” half the time is minute as in fractionally tiny or in some cases non existent outside of a vacuum chamber.

Ya thats why I thik NIKE was right the 1st time with the 6/5/0/0/15

GS/AXE-MACE becasue in those situations where you cannont land 100 blades or WWA it is better to weapon swap and use axe.

Trust me I understand peoples desire to change the meta a really do. Its stale and we got a few new traits and runes and sigils as well as a crit damage nerf. So people want to explore and see if they can come up with somthing better.

The thing is this debate is very old. What do you think we were debating before we settled on 30/25/0/0/15 We debated the same thing. So why are we debating it again just for the sake of change?

Honestly if somthing is not broken there is no need to fix it. None of the changes we got other that runes, sigils and a crit damage nerf changed warriors. None of the master traits beside Phalanx strength opened any new viable builds.

Tree.3916:

This was already settled in the dungeon forums with video evidence. You’re late to the party again. No one posts legit theorycraft in profession forums.

I’m interested in what this party is you keep talking about? Who if your idea of posting theory on forums is a party I think we are never going to agree on anything. Your right it has been settled thats why people are not recommending it. Which I agree with you however don’t? Because you don’t post anything to any forums that help anyone just troll comments based on your low understanding of how things work in reality half the time.

“TheoryCraft” I am not interested in theory’s based on certain things to be optimal. Or based on hypothetical scenarios. In which under those the theorys work. I am intrested in what happens all of the time in real world. A theory is just a theory until its been debunked.

I saw this too and I believe the math is correct but the assumptions the math based on are not. Just like the math was correct about DWA but the assumptions based on the math were wrong. They didn’t take into account of aftercast mainly and a 10% aspd bonus is not enough to overcome aftercast quickly. Where it only becomes better DPS given time to overcome aftercast. Which in practical use doesn’t happen often enough to justify using the trait.
As you can see the hits are faster but the time in between hits are not faster.

The reason I disagree with the data is mainly for the solo warrior but also under other circumstances where 10% of your DPS relies on bleeding to be on the mob. Warrior has a trait that will proc bleeding on crit but from my testing it is unreliable. So no all of your hits will always be modified by 10%

I also don’t see much point to go 30 into arms for a pure GS build other than the 50 precision and the 40 precision per signet. Doing so is under the assumption that you do not reach 100% crit chance with fury which I think that assumption is incorrect.

A lot of these math equations do not take RNG into account for example you may have 95 Crit chance or 100 crit chance in a small sample size the DPS will be no differ because the chance of a non crit getting through is extremely low. Low enough that it doesn’t make a huge difference.

your using the most optimal build for solo. You need sigil of str on your water weapon and 1 in a great sword you use just for stacking. Once you have 25 stacks swap the stacking weapon for a great sword with force+accuracy ot force+night if its night times other wise thats the most optimal solo open world build you have there.

wrong forum but its a pretty decent good ranger build I have to admit.

Its ok.

15 char.

I would go for inspiring banners over the self empower for 1%. I think the Down time of not having a banner out will make the party DPS lower. And I would use the empower allies 150 power trait over the warhorn one. Other party members can handle condition removal.

Those 2 changes would help your party more. For solo it doesn’t make a difference. What you have there will work fine for that.

For solo though you may want to consider the old 6/5/0/0/3 build…And trait signets. Traited signet of rage + untrated warhorn still generates perma swiftness if that is what you are after. And honestly you shouldn’t need a lot of condition removal for killing trash mobs solo.

TBH the builds are very close to each other in terms of DPS. Maybe if the GS would have crit more it would of been closer. That being said there were a few Axe hits that did not crit as well. This is spvp mind you.

Its close enough that it really doesn’t make a difference. However I beleive that if the Axe had the same 10 stacks of vuln generated from other party members there would be no question which one is faster.

There is no point in Dual GS for battle swapping since GS gets might on crit. Whirlwind attack does super nice damage. However I feel that unless you are whirl winding into a wall or whirl winding while chasin to generate extra hits Its not worth it as you will spend a couple seconds just getting back into positions to resume AA Time lost.

The Axes use might on Crit sigil and sigil of battle. And use Versatile power minor trait as well.

The reason why I didn’t test the other GS camping build is becasue I don’t see how it has more DPS than this one I could be wrong about that. And if so in that case I need to do another test. Mainly because I dont see how the 6 crit damage of the 0/6/0/6/2
equated into more DPS than 200 power. But if that is true I don’t se how 0/6/0/6/2 would be better than 0/5/0/6/3

It also wouldn’t be a fair comparison since the 0/5 0/6 builds require bleeding for their 10% damage and warrior precise strikes is not reliable enough to keep a constant bleed on the target.

Regardless of that The Axe build has more power and crit damage than both of those builds with a difference of what 5% damage. from attack of oppertunity=10% /Dual wield passive =5%

wads.5730:

Warlord.9074:

kowolo.7619:

Warlord.9074:

Wethospu.6437:

DPS isn’t same thing as “how many hits you get”. It’s average damage per second. In other words, total damage per total time.

DWA keeps your total damage same but decreases total time, even with one hit.

Ya total damage time in 9 secs was the same. with and without the trait thats what I am arguing. DWA doesn’t do more damage in the same time until the 10% increase has time to equate into more DPS.

The whole point is it takes more time for DWA to show real world increases. So under less time no real world increases happen. And if DWA isn’t given the time to equate into more hits in the same time by using off hand skills or stop attacking then the trait helped you none.

Logic fail.

Assuming without DWA 1 atk per 1 sec, and with DWA 1 atk per 0.9 sec. In a given interval of 5 seconds, they both hit 5 times and thus do the same damage.

However, let’s say a mob dies in five hits. Without DWA it will take 5 seconds to kill, with DWA it will take 4.5 seconds to kill. Hence 10% faster, and DWA increases your dps by 10%.

DWA doesn’t boost attack speed high enough for point 5 seconds less in 5 attacks. The whole axe chain is 6 hits. Its only about .5 seconds faster after about 17 hits. Which is the whole point of the thread.

he was making an example of why your logic fails. the point is yes, it’s the same number of attacks, but one is completed faster than the other, no matter how long you count for. therefore it’s a dps increase no matter what time frame you want to consider.

My logic is perfectly sound because the trait doesn’t boost the speed of aftercast. And that is the hindrance. The trait has to overcome the aftercast effect before it starts to shine and it takes longer than kittens. But I am done posting in this thread. The info is out there now. If you guys want to use it go for it.

Burr is right.

15 char

IMO the only good grandmaster trait we got was the might sharing trait. All other traits are either not needed or underwhelming.

kowolo.7619:

Warlord.9074:

Wethospu.6437:

DPS isn’t same thing as “how many hits you get”. It’s average damage per second. In other words, total damage per total time.

DWA keeps your total damage same but decreases total time, even with one hit.

Ya total damage time in 9 secs was the same. with and without the trait thats what I am arguing. DWA doesn’t do more damage in the same time until the 10% increase has time to equate into more DPS.

The whole point is it takes more time for DWA to show real world increases. So under less time no real world increases happen. And if DWA isn’t given the time to equate into more hits in the same time by using off hand skills or stop attacking then the trait helped you none.

Logic fail.

Assuming without DWA 1 atk per 1 sec, and with DWA 1 atk per 0.9 sec. In a given interval of 5 seconds, they both hit 5 times and thus do the same damage.

However, let’s say a mob dies in five hits. Without DWA it will take 5 seconds to kill, with DWA it will take 4.5 seconds to kill. Hence 10% faster, and DWA increases your dps by 10%.

DWA doesn’t boost attack speed high enough for point 5 seconds less in 5 attacks. The whole axe chain is 6 hits. Its only about .5 seconds faster after about 17 hits. Which is the whole point of the thread.

2/0/0/30/30

Video here

DEKeyzToChaos.7381:

Tremor and Impale-Rip are both DPS increases in melee. Granted, it’s often wiser to use Tremor for the CC, but a 2x(0.8) coefficient for an investment of 0.8 seconds without DWA is worth nothing.

Impale-Rip takes a bit more finesse to see the value. Let’s assume a 6/5/0/0/3 GS+A/M setup in a fully buffed environment since taking DWA benefits Rip-Impale more than the auto.

• Axe Auto DPS: 10606.7 (1.39 coeff per second)
• Impale-Rip Direct DPS: 9818.2 (1.29 coeff per second)

Now we can’t just Impale-Rip, Impale-Rip. Let’s just look at how much damage that axe auto does over the 1.75 seconds of the I-R animation.

• Axe Auto average Damage: 18561
• I-R Damage: 17181

Yes, I just multiplied by 1.75 so no surprise Axe still wins. But Impale also applies 2 stacks of torment with a base 12 second duration and adds an additional stack for each second until your Rip up to a total of 5 stacks. With 6 points in Strength, that’s a 12*1.3 = 15.6 duration, but since conditions tick once per second it’s really only 15 seconds.

Torment applies 31.875+(.0375*Condition Damage) damage per stack per second. Since we assume full might and banners and 5 in Arms, that means we have 1295 Condition Damage. Surprised? Yeah, you have almost as much Condition Damage than someone wearing full Dire gear (albeit unbuffed). So for the fully buffed 6/5/0/0/3 warrior, Torment does 80 damage per stack per second. Waiting a whole auto attack chain until you Rip means you apply 3 additional stacks for a total of 5 stacks of Torment.

• Axe Auto average damage: 18561 (over 1.75 seconds)
• I-R damage: 17181+ 80*(5*15) = 23181 (from 1.75 seconds of character effort)

And, I-R surpasses average axe auto damage after 18 ticks of torment, which you achieve 5 seconds after your impale – not a very long time at all. Any additional ticks after that is a DPS gain. For different builds, the condition damage and duration will vary a bit, but not to the point that you’re going to have to wait like 10 seconds to see the benefit from I-R. 6/6, for example, has even more condition damage and speeds up I-R more than the axe auto.

To the above poster who said leaving Torment on a target for 5 seconds you realize torment doesn’t tick twice unless the target is moving…If you are stacking the mob isn’t moving thus it stationary only is 1 tick per sec. That and besided the 300 Condition damage from traits warriors have no other condition damage.

Formula is

(0.0375 * Condition Damage) + 31.875 per stack per second at level 80

.0375X300=11.25+31.875 per stack=43.125×5=215.625 Assuming the target is not moving. 215.625 X 5 seconds =1078.125 That still makes I+R less than a full axe chain by your math. And even if the target moved enough to make it equal it begs the question why its a waste of time. And in the point is wasting time doing this.

I don’t want to pick on you because I think you have been fair and down to earth so far. But my argument with your statement is pretty much the same as trees Its using a theoretical circumstance to argue that if the target would be moving then rip isnt a waste of time for saying that rip is better DPS than axe chain.

Tree.3916:

Warlord.9074:

Tree.3916:

Warlord.9074:

Not trolling the difference between me and other is i tested it and made a video to prove it. while other just read something on a forum and or did a pen and paper math calculation and believed it. They trust whatever NIKE says on the other forum.

Nike is a lot smarter than you, though. You’ll have to trust me on that one. And he did test it. And he did provide video. You just aren’t looking in the right places where intelligent conversation happens. And he did conclude it’s a 7.3% dps increase for auto attacks and 8.2% for a real rotation.

So again, you’re late to the party. Also again, congrats on verifying the conclusions the dungeon community figured out 30 minutes after the patch came out.

The whole point is it takes more time for DWA to show real world increases. So under less time no real world increases happen.

In 9 seconds a 7.2% dps modifier would show roughly similar dps increases. What you miss is that you can, in fact, measure the extra hits.

For example, let’s take a 9 second window per your example.

The normal axe auto attack takes 3.6 seconds to channel. You would get 2 full chains off and then a chop and a double chop.

The DWA axe auto takes 3.24 seconds. You would get two full chain and then the first hit of triple chop. UH OH.

In 9 seconds the non-DWA build does 13.5 coefficients. The DWA build does 14.2.

13.5/14.2 = 5%. So even in your tiny 9 second sample it has a 5% advantage in dps. Since it caps out at about 8.2% it really doesn’t take long to ramp up to that.

See ya.

Yea well my video proves that is not true. Count the hits. You don’t get an extra hit until 10s. So that makes me smarter than u and nike. You are not listening because you cant admit that the game doesnt work the same as pen and paper. ANd in a 9 sec window both builds do the same number of hits. Other than a Boss any mob dies in under this. That makes this trait only a small DPS increase for boss fights when you attack longer than 9 secs on AA chain at any given time. If for any reason u use any other skill or stop the trait doesnt amount to a DPS increase because of the time wasted while performing other actions.

in 9 secs both builds do 17 hits. Between 9-10 seconds or at 10 seconds DWA will land the 18th the final tripple chop slightly faster and then land chop. However both builds can land 3 full axe chains in 10s.

As far as intelligent conversations there is none here because its easier for you to not admit you are wrong. I am not the one that has the burdon of proof its those who make the claims that something is better to prove.

Fact is both builds can land the final tripple chop in 10s with the DWA landing the final one slightly faster. Then is able to land chop faster than the other build.

Basically you are arguing that DWA lands chop faster in 10secs. And calling that a 10% DPS increase. Which clearly using a small sample of 10 secs a single chop does not amount to even a 7% increase It maybe a 1-2% increase and that is only if the sample size is 10secs not less than that.

You are most certainly wrong. DWA, at 9 seconds exactly, gets an extra hit. At 9.5 it doesn’t. But you didn’t say 9.5. You said 9 seconds. Sorry to tell you that.

Heck, it gets an extra hit at 3.25 seconds. At 3.25 seconds its 5% ahead on dps already. Is it any wonder why you are not understanding this? You don’t seem to understand that if you arbitrarily stop at the clock at some specific times you can cherry pick the results you want.

So far in this thread you picked 30 seconds and 9 seconds. I showed it is a significant dps increase for both those windows. But hey, keep cherry picking time frames and you might actually find one that supports your thesis. Maybe.

If I were you though, I would work on understanding the game and game mechanics than being concerned about who you’re smarter than or not, as the case is.

You are not sorry about anything. Why should I or anyone take someone seriously that talks like that. I am maintaining they both can land the final triple chop in 10s.. I’m fairly certain normal mobs die before this ever happens so why are you still arguing? Good day sir. You whole argument is based on theoretical circumstances and under those circumstances you are right. No matter what you say doesn’t make those theoretical circumstances a reality. Unless you can provide an encounter where your math adds up to be right other than a boss fight lets just agree to disagree. Because the simple fact is 99% of the time this trait does nothing and you know it. That is why you are wrong and I am right.

In the average party this build is the king. Both of those builds you guys posted are based on camping on GS. I think that if you use FGJ and the might on weapon swap sigil that you can maintain 25 stacks without camping on GS. And have better overall DPS while AA with a AXE while 100blades is on cooldown.

Pre fight might stacking is simple. Cast SOR and FGJ for a total of 11 might stacks. Then your party instantly has 11 stacks before a fight. Use 100 blades and they have17-18 stacks. Now weapon swap for another 3 stacks you are now at 21 stacks. You can use a might on hit sigil on your axe/mace or axe/sword to generate the reamining might stacks to 25.