Guild Wars 2

Jerus.4350:

Windsagio.1340:

most of the current content is already, well, trivial, so I expect ‘power creep’ to go along with them tuning the new content.

Very true, they really screwed up scaling last april with the ferocity patch. I still find Arah/Fractals pleasantly difficult such that if you screw up you’re punished. With the current changes though I can’t help but feel those things will just become boring even in PUGs (arah is already kinda boring in well organized groups if you do it regularly, need that added chaos from PUGs to keep it entertaining, IMO at least).

This always comes down to the fact that I think we’ll get fractal expansion and you don’t :p

most of the current content is already, well, trivial, so I expect ‘power creep’ to go along with them tuning the new content.

“leave your bubble”

heh

I always think positive, and think they’ll either buff the shouts or make them instant again (or at least some of htem), excluding the elite.

Jerus.4350:

But when paired with the pretty sweet might production they’ll be hitting like a truck in PVP and that’s all that matters right?

So you’re only allowed to mention pvp in these threads if you’re being sarcastic about it?

Well from the stream, their direct damage seems really strong in reaper, and they’re apparently reworking blood magic to give them more support traits.

Lendruil.9061:

Obtena.7952:

Windsagio.1340:

And there’s a tendency to massively over-analyze these things.

People going crazy over ‘selfish’ classes or not, its just not a meaningful problem in the vast majority of cases.

In the case here, looks like Reapers get a pretty big DD buff and some potentially interesting condition support (mostly in chill, weakness, some vuln).

On those shouts by the way, I hope they improve the condition uptime on them. less than 33% uptime (presuming full cooldown reduction) doesn’t seem great to me.

There is also a tendency to believe that something is crap because it’s not exactly how a player thinks it should be. People want to play an unselfish class, but demand it be necro. That’s not how game dev works people. If you want non-selfish classes, they exist, play them.

I’m actually a little jealous because of the approach Anet took to making Reaper have 3 themes in the single elite spec. That’s a pretty thoughful approach IMO.

So basically you are saying that people just should not play necros in dungeons?

no, I can’t speak for obtena, but we’re saying “If they’re not going for a record and they refuse you or hate on you (or you hate on yourself) for wanting to take your reaper into the dungeon, the problem is them.”

It’s not so bad. It’s never been so bad, but it’s actually much improved now

and again, 100% chill uptime. I might be fixating.

And there’s a tendency to massively over-analyze these things.

People going crazy over ‘selfish’ classes or not, its just not a meaningful problem in the vast majority of cases.

In the case here, looks like Reapers get a pretty big DD buff and some potentially interesting condition support (mostly in chill, weakness, some vuln).

On those shouts by the way, I hope they improve the condition uptime on them. less than 33% uptime (presuming full cooldown reduction) doesn’t seem great to me.

spoj.9672:

The thing is the wells still do more than the shouts for groups of trash. And the shouts are terrible for single targets. You would use 1 shout max with 2 wells for trash pulls. If the shouts had blast finishers they might be a little more favourable.

Man, wouldn’t that be great?

Hey anet! Put blast finishers on Necro shouts! Especially with the cast times, it solves so many problems!

(Just to be clear, because sometimes internest are hard to read. I’d seriously love and be excited seeing that buff)

I can think of a number of places where the trash are much harder than the boss (especially if you include trash that’s normally skipped)

Also seriously, those shouts aren’t so bad as all that. They’re many steps up from ranger shouts.

Edit: And you’re kind of wrong about scaling; all shouts scale effectiveness by number of targets. These just have a special case that they get some legit pretty nice bonuses in addition.

So yeah looks brutal for PvP, with the cooldown scaling thing (maxes at 35%) you have pretty good return on shouts in group combat — looks really terrible single target in general though.

Edit: If the effect on “NOTHING CAN SAVE YOU!” were shared, that’d be suuuuch a good group skill.

I’m pretty confident that they’re gonna nerf those DH longbow numbers though. Those were stupid :p

still can’t watch stream, but following updates. 100% chill uptime from GS autoattack is at least something unique to offer.

Edit: And now we can quit wrangling at each other and actually think about what the abilities are going to mean in dungeons

And that’s the problem. I don’t trust the community with design. It’s a hopeless concept, especially when we get to echochamber downplays.

You think you (or if you prefer ‘the community’) know(s) better and Anet is just being stubborn. This simply isn’t as likely as the idea that the community (or you) don’t have a holistic view of the class or of the design goals.

To answer your question: The disadvantages exist, they’re not nearly as meaningful as you feel they are, and the goals for the class aren’t what yours would be. A game designer has different priorities than a player.

spoj.9672:

Windsagio.1340:

spoj.9672:

Only if you can actually give a decent counter arguement or reason. Sadly you seem to fail at that most of the time.

My position on this would be to carry on about the narrowness of vision. You not liking my answers doesn’t mean they’re not good, which is a pretty important distinction.

You didnt counter my arguement. You just accused me of persecution and tried to justify their balance decisions by mentioning a completely unrelated and untrue statement that the other classes have barely changed aswell.

So lets hit this again. Maybe I misunderstood your argument.

My essential position is that Anet, and many players, have a different set of criteria than the dungeon does, and that (as the designer said) forums aren’t very trustworthy as they’re powered by pure concentrated tears.

In the specific of our discussion, probably communication breakdown, but..

spoj.9672:

Yeah i would love a reflect shout. Im just not optimistic. They have refused to give necro even a slight help with the core specs so its kind of hard to have faith in anything at this point.

spoj.9672:

Erm its hard to believe that with how things have been for the past 2.5 years.

spoj.9672:

tl;dr
We have good reasons to doubt anets intentions for the necro.

(bold and italics mine)

Sure SEEMS to read like a persecution complex, “doubt anets intentions” is pretty clear

First time I sold a fractal…

last thing the guy said to us:

“This wasn’t worth it”

I think he got a magi’s ring… for 24 gold.

I hate selling fractals (although my friends like to try it) because it feels to me like I’m cheating people. They’re so unlikely to get value, it’s not like dungeons where’ tis guaranteed progress.

spoj.9672:

Only if you can actually give a decent counter arguement or reason. Sadly you seem to fail at that most of the time.

My position on this would be to carry on about the narrowness of vision. You not liking my answers doesn’t mean they’re not good, which is a pretty important distinction.

Jerus.4350:

Windsagio.1340:

They’ve ‘ignored’ (to be read as ‘Not addressed in ways forumgoers like’) a huge number of things over the years, Necro hasn’t particularly stood out in this regard.

Classes simply haven’t changed that greatly over the life of the game (with a few bold exceptions). They’ve been tweaked up and down a few times, and there have been very few big things (notably some of the new trait 13’s), but that’s about it.

.This is one of those things where people keep telling each other something and as the snake eats it’s own tail, the story grows.

And this demonstrates why me and you can’t ever see quite eye to eye even if I enjoy our conversations

I simply can’t forgive them ignoring the fact that they designed this profession counter to their overall design (active defense being king). That’s not even to mention it’s lack of group synergy, and mediocre damage even in it’s top builds.

Us not seeing eye to eye is what makes the discusisons interesting and productive

Half-knowledge is many times more dangerous than no knowledge at all

They’ve ‘ignored’ (to be read as ‘Not addressed in ways forumgoers like’) a huge number of things over the years, Necro hasn’t particularly stood out in this regard.

Classes simply haven’t changed that greatly over the life of the game (with a few bold exceptions). They’ve been tweaked up and down a few times, and there have been very few big things (notably some of the new trait 13’s), but that’s about it.

.This is one of those things where people keep telling each other something and as the snake eats it’s own tail, the story grows.

no, seriously. I don’t wanna be duelling here, but that’s a pretty heavy persecution complex.

Possibly they’re not designing to meet your specific needs as a speedrun/dungeon person, and there are some core issues that necros have with how the dungeon scene involved, but saying you ‘doubt their intentions’ is really far left field.

@Neox

Again, no. There’s so much level and asset work that has to go into an instance that simply doesn’t have to exist for a non-instanced encounter.

It’s a lazy/easy way to force difficulty by limiting numbers, that I’ll grant.

No, no we don’t.

spoj.9672:

Yeah i would love a reflect shout. Im just not optimistic. They have refused to give necro even a slight help with the core specs so its kind of hard to have faith in anything at this point.

Honestly though, that’s kind of a weird position. It’s not like they have a grudge against the class.

not that I want to set us up for dissapointment of course ><

Jerus.4350:

Lowish cooldown shout with a projectile reflect on it (similar to the Air Blast on engi FT) could pair it with a knockback or damage. Ideally 20ish second cooldown but goes down with every projectile or enemy it hits (they said the cooldown would work like that didn’t they?)

Yeah, they def. did (on the cooldowns).

… random thought, something you’re discussing using that new shockwave tech they were hyping so much when they did the Rev class description.
.

spoj.9672:

Windsagio.1340:

In you guys opinion, what kind of damage/debuffs/special would they need to put on the shouts to make them meaningful?

Something along the lines of reducing mobs armour (different to vuln). Unique effects. Or just make them really strong for damage and debuff conditions applied. So even if they arent anything especially unique they make up for it in raw power.

My immediate thoughts I admit were long chill/slows

Of course I would ><

Fractal content is likely, dungeon content really not.

In you guys opinion, what kind of damage/debuffs/special would they need to put on the shouts to make them meaningful?

Garth Thurgen.1380:

EcoRI.9273:

Currently as long as you have 1 guard,1ele,1thief,1warrior, dungeons will be fast regardless of what you bring as a 5th. Yes necros will be slower than everything else but by how much? Probably less than 10 seconds in a casual run compared to the other 2nd tier classes(mes,ranger,engi). And probably 30seconds compared to a second ele. A large part of dungeons in todays meta is really just running from point A to point B. DPS is hardly a huge factor as most of you think.

TL:DR necros are viable to bring to casual runs. Gimmick allows necros to be viable in record runs.

Do you really believe that all of the people (or at least most of them) complaining about Necros not being viable are doing so because it’s not viable in a record run? And especially ones that actually have the “meta shell” of the 1 Guard/1 Ele/1 Thief/1 Warrior?

While there are many irrelevant complaints towards the problems that necros have, as there are always people who strictly want to see their class be on top and don’t care about anything else, a fair amount of the complaints are done from people who want a good enough reason to log onto their Necro for serious-ish play. They aren’t the people that will ever do a speed run in real terms (only a pale shade of what is actually done), they’re the people who will just PUG up a dungeon and go from there. Their goal? Not to get banned (and while I’ve never actually seen it happen in my hundreds of runs, I’ve never played one of the classes that it would be a problem in), and to be a indisputable part of a team in terms of being relevant.

And you’re right about them being fine in a casual setting. It’s why I’ve never banned the thousands of Necros that I’ve seen in dungeon runs (the record for that being three Necros on a single team, with the other not-me person being a Ranger). However, that doesn’t change the perception of the class, nor does it change the fact that they’re the only class that doesn’t fill a relevant role in any dungeon composition. In this game, the meta is perception, and Necros are easily in the worst spot as is.

Let’s be frank though, it’s just a ‘thing’. Situation for necros is not nearly as bad as people let on, but it’s become accepted common knowledge that they’re worthless.

spoj.9672:

Windsagio.1340:

Another thought: We don’t know the heal yet (although the stream I can’t watch is going on right now so maybe we do), but from what I’ve heard it’s also a shout. That’s interesting.

On the shouts, as I Think more it’ll probably be teh third leg of a triangle.

Warrior shouts: Offensive buffs (mostly)
Guardian shouts: Defensive buffs (entirely)
Reaper shouts: Negative effect on enemies.

Not sure what stream you are referring to because the specs are previewed on friday.

kitten, misread the news item.

Another thought: We don’t know the heal yet (although the stream I can’t watch is going on right now so maybe we do), but from what I’ve heard it’s also a shout. That’s interesting.

On the shouts, as I Think more it’ll probably be teh third leg of a triangle.

Warrior shouts: Offensive buffs (mostly)
Guardian shouts: Defensive buffs (entirely)
Reaper shouts: Negative effect on enemies.

just wait, all their utility shouts are blast finishers!

On the reaper, we also haven’t seen 4 of their weapon buttons, their heal, 2 of their utilities, or their elite

— or their traits. This might be a little early to declare :p

Rising Dusk.2408:

Windsagio.1340:

This is why I get so salty on these ‘meta’ discussions. All this back and forth and complaining when it really won’t matter unless you’re speedrunning.

That’s a common misconception. It matters even more in non-speedrun contexts. If your entire team is running around in full clerics gear, your own ability to support them offfensively/defensively and provide massive DPS gains for the team are critical. It’s even more important than when you’re in a full meta group where each personal improvement is only a marginal team improvement.

Hell, it matters even more in open world where your ability to self-boost is critical because no one else will help you.

I am going to let this go because we don’t need another “WHAT IS META WAAH META” thread, but I’m letting it go with the note that I deeply disagree :p

Edited to say : “What Jerus said below is right on”

This is why I get so salty on these ‘meta’ discussions. All this back and forth and complaining when it really won’t matter unless you’re speedrunning.

Looks like Reaper gets good, meaningful DD, and it looks interesting to play.

Also “You have a new entire skill that didn’t exist before, and aren’t giving up a skill in return”

Avol.9761:

Ok look, if a another player gets more abilities than me as a guardian, because he bought heart of thorns, and i still have the standard abilities, than the player who bought heart of thorns has a better variety of ways to defeat me, plus he is automatically more versatile than i am. So that is pay to win my friend, paying for more abilitties and a better class set, is pay to win. Screw that, i regret buying this game.

Back the old question: When has buying an expansion in an MMO become an undue burden?

Yes he is probably stronger than you. The elite specs so far are pretty powerful.

So what? That’s how MMO expansions work. And trying to frame it in catchphrases doesn’t cover that truth.

Brother Grimm.5176:

One possibility is that PvP WILL allow for use of the Elite Spec line even if you don’t purchase HoT (to keep the playing field even). Face it, the code has to be in the game for you to play against it in PvP, so what’s the harm in allowing PvP players (that they are trying to increase) get a free “taste” of HoT?

Not saying it’s gong to happen, but it would certainly remove any “NOT FAIR” and “PAY 2 WIN” whining that could crop up in PvP discussions.

The harm is they want people to pay, and then pvp players would have no reason to buy the xpac.

MiniEquine.6014:

Aggrostemma.1703:

I think the biggest question is:

Can we buy the HoT from the gem store or not?

If the answer is yes than everybody has access to it so we cannot even talk about the P2W situation. In the case the answer is actually no… It’s a different story.

The answer is no, and it really doesn’t change anything. Everyone will have access to it for the same price (This is the important part). The only people that claim GW2 is P2W are those that are not yet aware of the difference between P2W content and B2P Expansion content.

or people who want to argue a moral position that they shouldn’t have to pay.

I don’t think anyones objecting to selling this time, it’s more who’d buy?

I guess people have a looooot of money though so…

I’ve been in groups that do that, it always annoys the hell out of me. Super easy on jade especially.

The problem I have is that it’s such a bad investment for buyers. What they’re selling is a RNG roll for an ascended box or a fractal weapon, but both times I saw it people spent ~10g for… some empyrial fragments and a crappy ring.

Palador.2170:

Tacit Ronin.2097:

I really don’t get the hate for Caithe though?

It’s mostly because she makes horrible, HORRIBLE choices, and she’s constantly forgiven for it. The game makes us forgive her, too. We don’t get a choice in the matter.

In the sylvari personal story, there’s also a couple of points (depending on the path you take) where you’re going to leave someone alive, and she jumps in and kills them rather than let them return to the Nightmare Court. No mercy at all.

While I’ve not read the book that covers it, I believe she also was the one that gathered Destiny’s Edge and set them off to KILL Glint. Glint herself had to convince them to side with her against the real threat.

She took part in the slaughter of a tribe of centaurs that were just protecting another sylvari. And then, to protect a secret, she killed that sylvari rather than the one that was intending to torture the secret out of her. Kill the innocent, spare the guilty.

And now? She kept that secret from everyone, even Trahearne, who NEEDED to know it. Hundreds are dead, and the Pact is in ruins. And of the Pact sylvari, the dead may be the lucky ones. Caithe, meanwhile, has stolen the one object that might save us and run off with it. Even the Pale Tree is upset over this, and if we hadn’t been off chasing after Caithe to get the egg back, we could have been at Trahearne’s side to give advice during the assault.

A lot of us fear that the game will once again force us to forgive Caithe, and we don’t want to. Had she been honest with us and Trahearne, the Pact would be intact, the sylvari would’t be seen as pre-corrupted traitors, and we’d be well on our way to dealing with Mordremoth. Forget Scarlet, Caithe is his most loyal agent.

This.

People find Trahearne annoying because it feels like you do the work and he does the credit (note I don’t particularly agree with this)

Caithe on the other hand, does horrible things at every turn and is celebrated for it.

People have said people are talking about a meteor shower nerf, does that count?

Jerus.4350:

Windsagio.1340:

Jerus.4350:

We’ll see ont he fractal bit, my hopes aren’t very high with the level of power creep we’re seeing.

I think you’re overselling the power creep a little.

They could as simple as raw-scale the crap out of post-50 and power creep would be the least of our problems.

I don’t think so at all. Guard will be able to maintain the support it has while gaining a huge amount of damage. Engi will be able to raise it’s support a ton while likely increasing it’s damage a little. Ele will get slightly better damage with staff, though it’s support options will drop a tad, but staff is already the go to with such high damage. Warrior is just going to be amazing damage while providing 25stacks of might. Only Guardian in that set have we seen the Elite specialization which if goes unchanged will be even more damage on top. Thief is also going to see a boost if the traits go live as is.

But yeah, if we get post 50 fractals that may help, but have they confirmed that? I may have missed it but wasn’t aware of any confirmation on what is to happen with fractals other than specializations, which again I worry will just result in some power creep.

But, you do know me, pessimistic to the end so maybe I am, but everything I’ve seen has pushed me in that direction, it’s not completely unfounded pessimism.

I’m 50/50 on this one:

But first some bookkeeping: They’ve said nothing about fractals beyond the fact that there’s an entire branch of masteries tied to fractals. Still, it reads like an easy win to me, so I’m expecting substantially extended fractals — with one of the mastery tracks involving additional AR so we can get around the equipment track. They also fit the new progression model with masteries quite well.

~~~

On the power creep. I think you’re right, they’ll trivialize current group content, and (possibly) excepting fractals, that content wont’ get buffed. To me that always read as the plan, so I’m relatively cool with it.

The question is what the new content is…. and that’s a HUGE quesiton mark.

It could relate to some of the chronomaner tricks mentioned above, “Use gravity well, drop chronomancer, quick swap to mass haste”

I’d agree it’s more likely to work with virtues /class abilities than with skills tho

Jerus.4350:

We’ll see ont he fractal bit, my hopes aren’t very high with the level of power creep we’re seeing.

I think you’re overselling the power creep a little.

They could as simple as raw-scale the crap out of post-50 and power creep would be the least of our problems.

and put it in an overflow popup.

With the skills, I suspect it will switch but leave on cooldown, like (sometimes) happens when you go into and out of water.

What we can’t do is get the sides out of dungeons and fractals ><