Guild Wars 2

Going rifle and Pistol would have been a cool playing against type that is very in sync with the GW2 world.

Longbow is layering high fantasy on top of high fantasy.

lamest possible choice, so sad

segman.3560:

Windsagio.1340:

If you’re selling then that’s the end of the discussion. Arenanet has all but said that they don’t intervene on the behalf of path-sellers..

This is a lie.
They’ve said they don’t suport path selling however path stealing or happy kicks still can be reported.

However don’t count on any consequences here. I know at least 3 constant path stealers that run around in LA laughing at faces of cheated players.

#justarenanetthings

All but said.

You’re right they’ve never explicitly said they won’t punish people that steal paths, but it’s also reasonably clear how they treat it.

In this specific case, the OP made a bad mistake anyways, trying to sell a path when you can’t enforce a kick is honestly poor planning. What was going to happen if they just refused to pay?

In essence my position is this:

You cannot act as if path selling is a protected practice

This means that you have to take every means to protect yourself you can, it’s going to be very hard to convince them to act, and it’s going to take a particularly egregious case of abuse to get their attention.

I want to be careful about ‘blame the victim’, but there were so many ways he was asking for it on this one.

If you’re selling then that’s the end of the discussion. Arenanet has all but said that they don’t intervene on the behalf of path-sellers..

Dude’s trolling you guys.

That being said, there’s a point there. WE only hear one side of the story, and a massively undetailed part of that story too.

I didn’t see the screen, so we don’t even know if he was selling. Still, the situation seems a bit weird if we get right down to it, generally people don’t kick for no reason (even trolling sellers is a reason).

In short:

If he was selling paths he’s on his own, Anet is very clear on that.

If he wasn’t selling what led to the other folks kicking him?

Yeah you often do take skills your traits don’t help.

Do guardians without superior Aria and Pure of voice take “RETREAT!” ?

That one’s a very clear choice. They don’t want you to have ‘best of everything’ builds, so you ahve to choose shouts or symbols.

Actually haven’t seen much complaint about this lately, have the kick changes helped?

@OP, these are always he said/he said kinds of things, which is why Anet almost never takes action.

pay me no mind, preferred build shifts are always very interesting to me

I think that’s the funny thing. Everybody feels forced to some degree.

People don’t like to feel they’re forced to play ‘meta’ (they’re not actually being forced, but again perception).

‘Meta’ people don’t like the idea of people forcing changes on them (and reasonably).

With thought (and maybe this is obvious), that’s probably the key to the whole thing. Anti-meta ‘PHIW’ people feel that the current environment forces them to play ’zerk.

Because players aren’t game designers, they come up with all kinds of gameplay solutions to a problem that’s basically social.

Edit: That came out harsher than I meant.

Jerus.4350:

Windsagio.1340:

Stars.2179:

That symbolic avenger seems op, BUT some of the symbols the guardian place is pulsing which means it will interfere with ele’s fire field maybe they should clarify the mechanic of multiple fields. I don’t think it’s first in first out (the data we experimented on is pretty inconsistent). Or the meta might change to just having the warrior solo might stacking and forget about fire field hehehe.

This is kind of why we’re seeing more PSEA again, doesn’t care about field interactions.

If you’re talking about PVE stuff for dungeons and wht not, it’s also because Staff Ele is so powerful so it’s nice to take the might pressure off of them, plus PS is easier and often more consistent.

It’s changed substantially and fairly recently too, though.

It’s less word imo it’s tone.

“PHIW” is fine and descriptive, but you start using it as if it’s an insult we have the problem.

(Not that I’m super qualified to be the arbiter of taste)

Stars.2179:

That symbolic avenger seems op, BUT some of the symbols the guardian place is pulsing which means it will interfere with ele’s fire field maybe they should clarify the mechanic of multiple fields. I don’t think it’s first in first out (the data we experimented on is pretty inconsistent). Or the meta might change to just having the warrior solo might stacking and forget about fire field hehehe.

This is kind of why we’re seeing more PSEA again, doesn’t care about field interactions.

Iris Ng.9845:

The real question is…

Tormented shield or Chaos shield :’<

no crazy clock shield?

wauwi.9162:

Windsagio.1340:

There is the use of PHIW as a perjorative, of course.

Yeah, they’re kind of the exact opposite, of what’s know as the “elitist”.

How would you call an awfully geared player, who’s still knowledgable in the ways of the dungeon runner?

Why is someone playing how they want bad?

My playstyle or your playstyle isn’t some kind of moral absolute.

There is the use of PHIW as a perjorative, of course.

Zeal and Honor might (imo) be two of the strongest lines they showed.

Yeah the aegis talents are iffy, the symbols are so good I’m worried they’ll get nerfed.

To my experience starting as the ‘right’ class helps a lot with that ><

And again, many people choose to not join groups that say ‘zerk only ping’ not because they’re not zerk but for similar association reasons.

That part works well except for a few people that get mad on a conceptual level.

Jerus.4350:

Welcome to the Dungeon subforum Windsagio, where you might see some things as completely inappropriate, well, that’s just the way we roll here

haha touche’!

The circle of hate is now complete!

Well it’s not a comparison I’d be comfortable making, and that’s probably saying something ><

EcoRI.9273:

Wasn’t that the very same excuse white supremacist store owners used against black people when they refuse to service them?

Ok seriously dude, that’s kitten’d up.

@Harper

1) It’s a lot about how you do it. I’ve seen polite kicks, I’ve seen silent kicks, I’ve seen angry/mocking kicks. Of course some people are going to flip out no matter what, such is the internet.

2) This conflict is almost exclusively a forum thing. There’s a small number (as mentioned above) that get all ants-in-the-pants on it in game, but it’s really a metaconflict.

Edit: And in the forum side, there’s plenty of people that do vocally and aggressively look down on these people.

Edit2: I haven’t actually managed to get kicked from a group, dunno how I’d react (the one thing I do know is that it wouldn’t be by harassing the person that kicked me)

It’s all perspective. Assume that the other side (whether you’re PHIW or ‘meta’) knows how to play and knows what they’re doing and why.

If their playstyles don’t match, don’t play with them, but don’t call them bad for playign differently.

This is the entire core of the hate, and yeah it’s mutual.

Again, if you want to talk about me, take it to PMs.

I can, and am willing to play, but am also trying to be good.

given the way it will work now I’d be shocked if it didn’t remember how you had a specialization mapped out now. It’s a much easier set of data to save.

depends so much on the groups, maybe the definition of ‘high’ changes… the only places where I get a lot of ‘annoying/lazy’ in fractal pugs (say post-30) is people wanting to cheeze mossman, people being scared of Mai, and the terror that is a true pug molten duo.

spoj.9672:

I was speaking of your general style of posts. You always seem to pop up and start instigating this same discussion. And the suckers we are cant seem to resist the temptation to respond.

I’m certainly not intentionally instigating, I’ll cop to being stubborn at trying to get my point across though.

Edit: I love talking about me, but it’s not totally on point to the thread :p pm me if you’d like to go over it more

spoj.9672:

Windsagio.1340:

maha.7902:

Windsagio.1340:

In general, this thread is a ‘why do they hate us?’

I find in my own life that the most common answer to that question is ’it’s because I’m being obnoxious’.

That’s the thing I’d like to have folks get out of this. As easy as it is to look outward and blame/insult others it’s much more useful, if you actually care about fixing the situation, to look inwards

so what was it you were trying to say about the people in the guild I’m in again?

I regret the reference, don’t wanna get into a flame war.

Hard to believe with how obnoxious you are and how you always seem to pop out of nowhere to bring these issues up. :>

Calling people out by name or by group is a whole different thing tho, no? I’d edit it out but the post has already been quoted and referenced.

(I know you’re largely kidding, but you know how it is ><)

This stuff is important though. I do high fractals a lot, so I end up having to interact with a lot of this stuff, and the attitudes effect me personally.

I think there’s 2 other things;

1) General ease: Maximum optimization isn’t even remotely required for essentially all content (even the hardest stuff we have) so people can’t grok why it’s being required of them. Edit: And they feel it is being required.

2) This is pretty subjective, but it seems like the people taking part in these discussions have a very high % of former raid players on each side. The ‘embittered refugree’ sense is real, and nothing makes you hate like burning out from a raid experience.

maha.7902:

Windsagio.1340:

In general, this thread is a ‘why do they hate us?’

I find in my own life that the most common answer to that question is ’it’s because I’m being obnoxious’.

That’s the thing I’d like to have folks get out of this. As easy as it is to look outward and blame/insult others it’s much more useful, if you actually care about fixing the situation, to look inwards

so what was it you were trying to say about the people in the guild I’m in again?

I regret the reference, don’t wanna get into a flame war.

In general, this thread is a ‘why do they hate us?’

I find in my own life that the most common answer to that question is ’it’s because I’m being obnoxious’.

That’s the thing I’d like to have folks get out of this. As easy as it is to look outward and blame/insult others it’s much more useful, if you actually care about fixing the situation, to look inwards

Jerus.4350:

Windsagio.1340:

I think it’s wrong to post your style unless you’re insisting on it.

Do you feel there’s anything wrong with insisting?

Personally I was banned from posting LFGs in my old group for a reason, I never posted “right” I’ve always played under the pretense that if you can’t carry someone who isn’t good, then you’re no good, but I have no qualms about those who do insist upon whatever requirements they see fit, I just don’t take part in the quelling.

I actually like when dungeons take a bit longer to kill things, which is why I don’t do dungeons much anymore and prefer fractals. Though there is that satisfaction of things just going smoothly. As my grandpa used to say “I love when it just cinches” when things just go right, ahh, such a refreshing feeling. Did an Arah p2 the other day with someone who frequents this forum in a PUG, other than one little hiccup on my part (my weapon swap didn’t trigger and I didn’t get the shortbow blast in my black powder) it was awesome. It does get boring when you run with that efficiency all the time though, at least IMO.

Na, be clear on what you demand if you have demands. I might disagree with your (again general ‘you’) way of thinking about the game, but its up to you to maximize your fun.

Plus, it’s a filter that goes both ways. If you don’t like meta-mongers it lets you avid something you think is going to be a negative experience anyways.

Posting your build without an intent to filter others seems to me to just lead to more isolation and segmantation.

I think it’s wrong to post your style unless you’re insisting on it.

actually this is adry socket, sorry ><

Let’s all be good people!

2 kinds of props:

“I hope people look cool! or I hope people are impressed by my playing!”

vs.

“I’m better than all the casuals and bads for doing this.”

And on one hand there’s no reason to believe that dungeon people are part 2, but then again DnT exists.

Edit: It’s back to the same old thing. More from other MMOs than from GW2 per se, people (probably unfairly) connote a very negative experience and POV with the dungeon/progress crowd. It’s not uncalledfor, especially in vertical progression games.

I have to say, fishing for props seem’s a pretty big motivator for some of the segments of players (maybe all of them, that’s part of dress-up wars as well).

GW2 does an excellent job of making their content accessible.

it’s not really taking it super seriously, but it’s part of the culture, (I know, I know, my other name is Mr. Buzz Killington)

Jerus.4350:

I agree, cause I can go to general discussion and find the exact same thing going the other way

Thing is when I go in game, I find it to be much more pleasant than the forums where people seem to become a bit more of extremists in an attempt to “shout louder to win the argument”.

That links to my point though. It’s not ‘oh you guys are especially jerky’ but rather ‘on the forums there’s a culture of mutual hostility and hate’

Every time someone posts ‘people hate what they don’t understand’ they’re making it worse by reinforcing the hostility and condescension — while the PHIW people are saying the same thing.

~~~

So maybe the answer is ‘people hate min-maxing in gw2 because forums make us evil’?

Jerus.4350:

Why do I feel like this is going to end how most of the discussions go Wind? Jerks are jerks, and they ruin it for everyone on both sides of the table.

Well…

“People hate what they don’t understand…”

“Instead of improving and climbing upwards to new heights, people often prefer to drag others down to their level.”

“I am kinda thinking that we ended up with all the players who couldn’t/wouldn’t make it in other MMOs here.”

“because filthy casuals dont wanna learn the tells of about 200 unique bosses and would rather survive by sacrificing damage than memorizing when to dodge
and there are oh so many filthy casuals”

It’s an inherent issue in this discussion that people are like this consistently. As long as the predominance of answers are on these lines, there’s no room for discussion or understanding.

It’s not just ‘some bad apples’ there’s an inherent adversarial attitude that is fostered and relished.

Demonizing those ‘others’ is a major part of the problem.

spoj.9672:

In fairness noone likes carrying deadweights that dont even communicate. I believe most of the exclusivity and toxicity comes from bad experiences with players like that.

For sure. The issue is always that you remember the worst – from either side.

Jerus.4350:

Being anti Elitist I can totally understand. Being Anti mathematical objective facts just seems so wrong to me.

Except it also comes down to priorities. Sometimes the time savings is minimal, so theres an easy element of ‘why do you care so much about something so minor?’

The main reason, I’ve usually felt, is that people are aggressive and nasty about pushing min/max attitudes and are severely exclusionary.

It’s not necessarily rational, but nobody likes being excluded, and double nobody likes being insulted (being called bad, foolish, etc) for not playing to some Type-A personality’s version of the game.

This is an excellent example of entitled gamers borrowing offense.

You yourself admit you have 80s that could do it and qualify, but you choose to complain. This is the problem

(I may be a little drunk posting)

Also, it is more restrictive. The meta-conversation is whether being more restrictive is automatically bad or not.

As J said, they’ve asked for real feedback, let’s work to get specific lines fixed up so each one has the most interesting possible choices at each tier.

I’ve never felt HM fit in that tree anyways, feels ‘off’ to me ><

I want to dig through a tree for analycrit, but works killing me too much forr anything in-depth

Dadnir.5038:

Windsagio.1340:

Was deciding which off the many threads to put this in, this wone will do.

DIfferent builds aren’t diverse builds

Adding Bolt to the Heart and Vital striking and stone splinters didn’t change the way you played, they just increased damage (the limitations weren’t meaningful),

Taking all 3 symbol traits in the guardian Honor line, was meaningfully playstyle defining, and it required you downgrade your GM trait to master… So they made it so the ‘play defining trait’ is the grandmaster in the tree. Similarly in the same tree if you wanted to do shouts.

Almost all the ‘diversity’ people are complaining about is minor damage optimizations and nothing that speaks to the real play style.

In fact, that’s my challenge.

Present a play style that’s lost with this change NOT a specific build, but a way of playing.

I honestly can’t think of any.

Ok Let’s see what we got :

An AA tanking gardian lose either heal/defensive symbole for sustain which are in Honor or pure blind defensive power by spamming F1 in radiance or easy boon generation which is in Virtue. Overall it’s a net loss in survivability because you need this minor trait to survive and this is 4 different traitline.

Playing a tanky Necromancer based spectral, WH and siphon. I had a build that needed curse, Death magic, blood magic and soul reaping. A build really effective that didn’t care about bad GM trait. Now, I can stretch it in whatever way I want, I can gain meaning full buff here and there but whatever I do, I still have a net loss in survivability. (I could even say that these changes shut down any hope for necromancer’s siphon to have any usefullness ever, people tried and tried again it’s impossible DS hurt siphons and with these change DS will remain whatever elite specializations they can add)

Lot’s of mesmers builds are shaken to their very core because deceptive evasion is becoming a GM trait which will result in a net loss of dps, survivability and support.

I think it’s already enough for the challenge.

There is one more thing. This system, with the traits as they’ve been presented lock down a lot of prefession into their own weakness without any hope that a specialization may correct any of them.

The most meaningfull exemple being the necromancer which starve to be free from the shackles that come along with DS. DS prevent any buff to siphon and at the same time DS prevent siphon to be effective. DS prevent any new defensives means to appear because DS is supposed to be the defensive mean (with it’s strengh and flaw). DS prevent any new support because it’s also supposed to be the support mean. Each and every trait that are scattered in all necromancer’s traitline are Nails on it’s own coffin preventing him to see the light of an evolution.

And it will be the same for every other profession, this system only allow poor addition like the underwater DS that can’t even work with some of the necromancer’s DS traits.

You’re wrong in the first case, pure tank guardian is fine with these changes, blind isn’t a necessary part of your tank build if you play/are built right and your team plays right

Can’t speak for necros, I know they’re pretty unhappy (beyond normal new change levels), gonna look into it now ><.

Trajan.4953:

It really does seem like A-net is missing a huge opportunity here.

Let’s be frank though, how’s it monetize compared to its cost?