Guild Wars 2

It’s not mandatory, but you’d need a pretty good reason not to take it.
I have the same thing with 5 points in Virtues.

(Can’t quote): “You and your ideas… “toss in two Shouts and trait into “Shouts remove conditions” and you’re now removing a condition from everyone every ²⁶ seconds, not to mention you can pull all party conditions to yourself, then remove them with the trait plus your own soldier runes.””
This would be a build especially tailored to removing conditions, and even then conditions can be easily applied faster than they can be removed. So there’s one (maybe two) builds for Guardians that are good against conditions and it forces them in a role that not everyone enjoys.

Dravyn.4671:

Save Yourself should have kept the previous boon duration, but only awarded boons based on the amount of conditions you actually drew onto yourself. The original version of the skill was overpowered, the nerfed version of the skill is stupidly underpowered considering the conditions you draw onto yourself will outlast the boons you get.

They can’t make the skill like that. That would make it useless in solo-content, which just doesn’t do in this game.
An idea that has been floating around the forum is that the boon duration should be 4 or 5 seconds plus an additional second for each condition you pull to you.

Can we make a list of things that are affected if Retaliation would be removed? Just as a thought exercise?

DanH.5879:

I for one barely scratch a guardian (too much Toughness), and when he finally reaches 1/2 hp, uses heals to 100% ! And yes as a Thief I lost all my initiative all 15+ points.
Kill him if you can !,I have tried different builds, never won even 1 time, and no, it is not 100% skill….

Thieves aren’t very strong against Guardians (but from what I hear, they’re pretty good at plenty of other professions), but that doesn’t mean they can’t win. Also, it’s important to know what kind of Guardian you’re up against. Most Guardians seem to run a bunker build, since the rest is less effective.
In order to beat them, you’ll have to rely mostly on condition damage and other kinds of sustained damage. Burst isn’t very useful. Also, try to put Poison up once the Guardian starts losing health.

And you know what I find curious? That so many players come to this (sub)forum claiming we are overpowered, but no-one comes here asking for our weaknesses, or how to kill us.

Aegis is different, because it’s tied (mostly) to a Virtue.
But yeah, Retaliation should be actively controlled. (Although I could stomach the traits that tie it to Aegis.)
How I see Retaliation is: You see a big hit incoming (like say, you see a Warrior Bull Rushing in your direction). As a response to this, you activate a skill that grants you Retaliation. This gives you big flashy thorns around your character. A good Warrior will cancel the attack, a bad Warrior won’t. It opens more decision space for everyone involved.

In my opinion, the way Retaliation works and is implemented is wrong.
Retaliation should do the same damage as is incoming. It should also have a very clear visual.
It should also something that is more or less completely controlled by the player, so no Retaliation procs.

Guardians are strong, that’s true. But I wouldn’t call them overpowered. What profession do you play, and why do you have troubles defeating the Guardian?

@Toast:
1) My idea was to increase the projectile speed and give it a short cast-time. Weakness and Vulnerability could both fit, but my idea was to make the last one a projectile finisher.
2) This is obvious and it’s weird that it isn’t like this already.
3) This skill is perfectly fine and actually pretty powerful.

What the skill should have is a priority system:

1. Player in the user’s party
2. Player not in the user’s party
3. NPC
4. Pet
5. …
   So if you activate the skill, it check who is in range, then it ports you to the nearest player in your party in range with the lowest health. If no-one is in your party, it will port you to the player with the lowest health, etc.

The change to Line of Warding was to bring the skill in line with the tooltip. It was never intended to last that long.

Good post.
I never really noticed the issue of having low health (note that I don’t do dungeons). It’s just never an issue for me.
And it’s good that you point out our weakness to condition damage that comes with having a low health pool. It’s probably our greatest weakness, but we need weaknesses.

I’m just going to say it again: RIFLES!

But if the Scepter got improved, I’d be just as happy. (Okay, maybe slightly less happy.)

For open world PvE: Sword/Shield + Greatsword: Good and quick killing, but still able to have some clutch-support if needed. In groups I gravitate more towards the Hammer or the Mace.

For PvP I pretty much always use a Hammer. It’s such a great well-rounded weapon.

It was definitely a buff. Yeah, it should have been like that from the start, but when something gets improved, and isn’t a bug-fix, it’s a buff.

Skills should be the same in PvP and PvE if at all possible. As Zeph said, it could be a concern because one area gets shafted for another. But that is for the developers to figure out.
And to elaborate on what Zeph said: That way of handling isn’t inherently bad, but you should do it from the start. Either they completely overhaul the system, or they try to keep the abilities the same.

Animus.6073:

I’d even go as far as to suggest it gives +3 seconds to the boon duration per condition stripped but starts with a base of 0. So if you strip no conditions, you get no boons, if you strip 1, you get 3 seconds, if you strip 2 you get 6 seconds, so on and so forth.

It’s a good idea, if you could play “full support”. In a game where people don’t have dedicated roles, you can’t really have a skill that is only useful in group situations.

Svarty.8019:

Natas.1306:

You guys fail at guardian if you think renewed focus is not awesome.

It is awesome, but if you need the invulnerability, you’re going to die anyway. If 3s of invulnerability saves you, I’ll eat my hat.

You want some salt with that hat?
It’s not just three seconds of invulnerability, it also resets your Virtues.

Xethos.3179:

You’re on to something here. Why is it that they don’t remove retaliation from those abilities completely and keep their cooldowns and potency as it is? Retaliation is shared amongst all the other classes too so I doubt we can change the way it works. Every class would need to be adjusted

You don’t need to remove or completely change Retaliation. First of all give it a very clear graphical indication, so that your opponents know it’s up. This will do two things. First of all, it would make everyone who keeps attacking someone with Retaliation up a completely idiot who deserves to be mocked and it would make Retaliation more reactive. Instead of trying to keep it up, you’d activate it when you expect heavy damage is incoming.
Then you should also make Retaliation do the damage that is incoming, instead of scaling with Power. This makes it a lot more defensive and less attractive to damage builds.

@Eveningstar: In part our nerfs come down to bad testing during beta. Retaliation wasn’t tested enough, so it got nerfed. “Save Yourselves!” was added with one of the later BWEs, so it wasn’t tested enough.

Svarty.8019:

This is a preposterous statement for several reasons. Firstly, you claim to know the intent behind the Shouts despite not claiming to know the intent behind every skill. Frankly, the post smacks of hypocrisy before you even get to the point.

Secondly, you state that Shouts are defensive in nature. I disagree. It’s wholly subjective and basically, …your opinion. Ignoring the effects of the skills for a moment, Hold(ing) the Line or Stand(ing) Your Ground are hardly defensive things. They are offensive, allowing someone to remain the combat (hurting enemies) for longer.

1. I cannot know the intent, but I can guess or speculate about it. It’s not that hard. Unless Arenanet tells me what the intent is, everything I say is conjecture. That means that I can make an educated guess.
2. Holding the Line is pretty much making sure the enemy doesn’t get through and so is Standing Your Ground. The images I associate with those phrases are not offensive. They are groups of soldiers making sure the castle doesn’t fall, or making sure the enemy will not pass and burn their crops. Allowing someone to stay in combat longer is defensive.

Yeah, not a bad suggestion. It also puts more focus on the support-aspect of the Shout, which has been a bit neglected.

cannons.8109:

Guardians will never be viable at 1,200 range in PVP, and this is intentional.

I don’t really believe this. During the beta we got a range increase on the Scepter, the Staff and our off-hands. If Arenanet doesn’t want us to be viable at range they wouldn’t have increased the range on those weapons.

Feni.4306:

Hey look another dev, sure is a lot of them in this thread. I seriously love how you kids keep throwing around the word intended as if you created the class. Go on, explain to me why I was playing the class wrong and how YOU believe it should be played. After all, I’m only playing this game for your benefit.

I don’t know the exact intent behind every skill, nor do I claim to. It’s why I put “intent” between quotation marks, because it wasn’t the perfect word.
That being said, I suspect I’m right about the intent of “Save Yourselves!”. All Guardian Shouts are defensive in nature, so it’s not unassailable that this is also the case for “Save Yourselves!”. If people are using a skill that was designed (which I know, because more than any Shout, “Save Yourselves!” is group focused) around group support is used more often as an offensive tool, something went wrong.

Because “Save Yourselves!” got nerfed you can’t play properly anymore? Really?

As always, Eveningstart, you say exactly what I want to convey, only better.

This has been an issue since beta.
There have been plenty of suggestions from the community.
The one I liked most for the Scepter is:
Make the #1 skill a chain that ends in a projectile finisher.
Make the #2 skill a Symbol of some kind.

The Staff could use an overhaul.

wolfie.7296:

You can’t support in 1v1 situations which often arise.

All your support skills still help yourself. If I’m running my Shout-Bunker build, I use my Shouts for my own benefit first, and the benefit of my team second. It’s a good, high-survivability build that just gets stronger with other people around.

Brutaly.6257:

Arenanets own words:

“Guardians are devoted fighters who protect their allies and smite their enemies by drawing from the power of their virtues. True guardians are brilliant tacticians and selfless defenders who know when to sacrifice their own defenses to empower their allies to achieve victory.”

Stop the nonsense or reroll.

Arenanet also said that each profession should be able to fulfill each role adequately. If Guardians are being pigeonholed into a support role (by either other players or the developers) there is a problem.
Luckily, Guardians can do great damage as well.

wolfie.7296:

So we now have ‘Guardian players’ saying that Guardians shouldn’t be expected to defeat others in 1v1. With friends, proponents or advocates like these, you don’t need enemies.

Those players are misguided. Guardians can win in 1v1, and it’s not even that hard. They might have to work a little harder for their damage, but it’s not undoable.

As Wolfie says, Warriors have an easier time in bursting enemies down, but Guardians can do more/better sustained damage.

wolfie.7296:

Ynna.8769”

but mostly in capturing and holding points, which is a lot more important in sPvP.

This is what players do if they can’t win 1v1. They run around trying to simply gain points. That is not PvP.

I don’t run around. I pick a point, cap it and stay there. If I’m on a point, it will stay my point, unless you bring more people and even then it’ll be mine for a long time.
And I have no problem with beating people in 1v1. My most common build isn’t made for it, but I can still do it (it just takes a long time), but I’ve got a more roaming-oriented build that can easily take any other profession (although I have a few problems with Necromancers and Mesmers) and I can probably bring down two players if needed and if I play well.

I don’t want to call you a bad player, but if you can’t see how Guardians are good in PvP, I’m going to say the problem lies with you.

A Guardian can do good damage, but is more limited in options for doing so.
Warriors have great support, if they want to, but are a bit more limited than Guardians, and focus more on offensive support.

Other differences are, of course, the weapons they can use. Most notably the fact that Guardians aren’t that effective from ranged.

wolfie.7296:

Ynna.8769”

Because if 50% of your build’s power came from “Save Yourselves!” the nerf is perfectly justifiable.

Not at all. Why not look at Thieves and Warriors source of dps and their builds? Which are ok and you have not singled out.

I don’t play Thief or Warrior. I know the 100-blades combo, but that is so pathetically easy to avoid that it shouldn’t really be nerfed (and it consists of 3 or 4 skills).

wolfie.7296:

Ynna.8769”

You’re missing all the good Guardians who are owning in PvP. Guardians are really, really strong in sPvP (mostly because the focus on point-control)

They are “owning in PvP”. In what way? Killing 1v1?

Killing people (with the right build), but mostly in capturing and holding points, which is a lot more important in sPvP.

Ynna.8769:

Ynna.8769:

People who play Guardian seem to heavily underestimate the power of the Guardian.

Not all people!

Of course not everyone, but it seems to be all too common.

Vallenous.2179:

My build is seriously almost half as effective. I never complain, but I am just saying this was too much. If the traits worked as intended (tons of traits don’t work correctly), and we had more options with shouts and other builds, this would be less annoying, but to not fix bugs and introduce nerfs/changes is strange. There are numerous other nerfs that make more sense. After 25 Ranks in PVP, I will stick to PVE until trait and skill bugs are fixed. Hopefully the Guardian nerfs will be done by then.

[serious question] What was your build? And can’t you swap to a different Shout?
Because if 50% of your build’s power came from “Save Yourselves!” the nerf is perfectly justifiable.

wolfie.7296:

When fun is being taken out of a class that they invested plenty of time into building… Don’t complain about whining. People spent time in that class. I do not see Guardians cleaning up in PvP. Am I missing something?

You’re missing all the good Guardians who are owning in PvP. Guardians are really, really strong in sPvP (mostly because the focus on point-control) and in 8v8 I’m always top-defender or top-assaulter. In tPvP I generally defend one point, and can often do that the entire game without dying once.
But yeah, it’s never fun when your favored profession gets nerfed. People can and probably should complain that. But they should do it constructively. 90% of people who are complaining are whining, claiming Arenanet hates Guardians or saying they’ll reroll. I haven’t seen anyone explaining why the change completely made their build unplayable or why having 18 seconds of all boons in the game isn’t overpowered.

Brutaly.6257:

The Greatsword didn’t affect many builds? Are we playing the same game? I would say Greatsword is/was the dominant weapon and hence needed a nerf. It was overpowered in some aspects. Its a totally different issues if the nerf solved those issues though.

Whether the Greatsword needed change (and whether the changes we got were a good idea) is very debatable. What can be said is that the Greatsword got rather boring because of the change and lost a lot of it’s potential, without losing too much power.

No. The Guardian is not support only. Everyone who genuinely believes that is misguided and doesn’t know the full potential of the profession. Guardians can be powerful in every aspect of the game, they just have an easier time focusing on support.
And as Ganzo says, this game doesn’t support the idea of “support only”. Some people would like it, but that would require remaking the game from scratch.

The Shout was never used for the “intended” purpose. Guardian’s Shouts are defensive and are used for upping the survivability of the team, not for becoming an offensive powerhouse every minute.
I don’t know why the Shout was nerfed and I would like to know. But the sky isn’t falling.

If you choose Guardian and think it is able to actively pwn a fight you have got to the wrong class.

The guardian maxim is always react, defend, and outlast. Otherwise what would be the difference between them and Warriors anyway…

Wrong. Guardians can be very strong offensively. They don’t have a lot of options for that, but they can do it. And if they couldn’t, that would be faulty design.
The difference between Guardians and Warriors are plentiful (offensive vs. defensive Shouts, aesthetics, weapons, focus on control/damage vs focus on support/control…)

• We programmed a system where anyone who claims they’ll reroll will have the relevant character automatically deleted.
• Anyone who complains without being constructive about any weapon, will be barred from using that weapon.
• The same is true for any Heal, Utility or Elite skill.

This is how Renewed Focus should have been baseline. This is a good improvement to pretty much every build I use.

The build probably works. I would make a few small changes. I would consider swapping out “Stand Your Ground!” for a Signet or a Meditation, depending on how much your getting use out of the Stability.
In the Radiance-line, I’d change your second Major trait to either Inscribed Removal or Blind Exposure. Generally speaking, if you’re dropping that low on HP, you don’t need the extra damage.

You can 1v2 on a Guardian (and probably on other professions), but it takes some real effort and generally isn’t worth it.

Edit: The link doesn’t work because of a forum quirk, but if you copy and paste it, you get to the build.

I didn’t use “Save Yourselves!” enough to have an opinion on it, but 5 seconds of every boon still seems quite good to me. Because let’s be honest. You didn’t use it to help your allies, you used to kill things faster.

Also, the community is indeed deteriorating. We get the same threads complaining about the same issues with alarming regularity. People who play Guardian seem to heavily underestimate the power of the Guardian.

This was a much needed change. Being able to move during Renewed Focus makes it a lot more useful.

UnderworldSkull: It’s not like it’s hard or anything.

Both Shield and Focus have their strengths. Give them both a try and see what works best for your playstyle.

Our actual health pool is on the low side. Our effective health is more than sufficient.

Earlier suggestions were: “Move It!” and “Follow Me!”

This has been suggested at least three times already.

My very favorite utility is Judge’s Intervention, but I don’t often play builds that can make good use of it.

Haette.2701:

Does Resolve eventually start healing for a noticeable amount, or is it trait-proc fodder? My guardian is still pretty low-level and the heal is just disappointingly pathetic.

Unless you trait or gear heavily for it, activating Resolve isn’t really worth it. The little ticks do make a difference.