Guild Wars 2

@Ezrael, I think the problem was that very defensive Guardians were doing enough damage through Retaliation to warrant this change. It’s a weird place to nerf it, and I don’t think this change will actually change the way Guardians play in sPvP a lot.

Nope. You could just put it on cooldown the entire time.

Leeain: I know I don’t have any actual authority and you have no reason to listen to me, but if you word your ideas constructively, you’ll get better responses.
The change (it’s not a real nerf) was done to make Line of Warding the intended length. You could argue that this is a wrong direction to take, true.
I personally feel that the cooldown could be lower, since it’s slightly less useful than Ring of Warding.

The latter part of your post doesn’t make any sense at this point. You claim to see an evolution, while this is only our first data-point. Unless support-abilities get weaker in the future can you make such bold claims.
I’ve also taken the opportunity to rephrase your post, but keeping the message the same.

@SiNoS (quoting doesn’t work again): That’s the standard reaction to loss of power. It doesn’t matter that the power wasn’t intended.
And I can somewhat understand it. Line of Warding is a strong ability, especially in all kinds of PvP, but it has an adequately long cooldown and is tied to a weapon that is only brought to PvP by necessity that I think 8 seconds on Line of Warding is reasonable.
That being said, there are no “nerfs” in the patch notes that I find really bad. I’m a bit disheartened that our problems weren’t addressed, but those problems aren’t things you can quickly fix with a simple patch.

From what I understand, Guardians were doing quite some “passive” damage with Retaliation in PvP. And this was probably the most “passive” source of Retaliation.
That being said, it does seem to be a big jump. If this was beta, I’d say they did so they can bring it up a bit later, but on live servers, I’m not so sure about that.

Punny.9210:

Did you really expect to play ranged when you picked this class? Seriously.

It seems who play Scepter are those people that can’t play Melee… What a shame.

Just as we cycle through the same topics each 10 days, we have this every once in a while.
To answer your question: I didn’t specifically expect to play ranged with a Guardian, but I did expect to be at least somewhat adequate in every aspect of the game, including ranged combat. If Arenanet didn’t want us to fight (well) at range they shouldn’t have given us ranged abilities. That would be sloppy design. They also wouldn’t have said during the beta that the Guardian’s ranged capabilities were lacking and increase the range on them.

And I won’t even dignify the last part of your post with a reply.

This is a very reasonable suggestion, and could shift the meta-game of 8v8s somewhat.

Could we try and keep this thread about actual builds used in WvWvW? We already have enough threads about our performance in WvWvW and our ranged capabilities.

I must say I find myself weapon swapping rather often. In some builds because the skills on the different weapons complement each other and give me more tools for the same goal and in other builds because one weapon fills the holes of the other weapon.

If you get gear you already have, you can salvage it with a PvP Salvage Kit (100 glory or something), this will give you materials to use in the Mystic Forge in Lion’s Arch, which you can use to make gear you don’t already have.

Is this for 8v8?
Because raising the glory gained for a win would make unlucky auto-balances even worse. Maybe an incentive to stay in the map even when losing horribly should also be suggested?
Encouraging point defense would shift strategies in 8v8, but it might be hard to quantify the effort put in to defend a point. But I believe LoL has a pretty good system in place for it. Maybe someone who plays that could elaborate on it.

Judges.4527:

Seriously tho, shut the hell up. Guardians, as a class, are SO overpowered. Yeah they might have a weapon or two that’s not as hot, BUT ITS STILL playable.

I was beaten by a scepter guardian in sPVP tonight who still had full health when I beat him. I don’t suck, but necros do, and Guardians are OP.

I don’t mean to be rude, but Necromancers are on of the classes that can most easily defeat a Guardian.
Guardians aren’t so overpowered. They’re maybe a bit too strong at point defense, but that’s about it.
The Scepter is easy to avoid, even in sPvP, just by keeping a distance and changing direction often. And the Scepter issues aren’t that noticeable in sPvP, more in WvWvW.

I don’t think anyone is really against an extra ranged weapon for our profession, but that’s just no happening anytime soon.

Hammer is a good option for PvE, but since you don’t want Greatsword I’ll assume Hammer isn’t on the list either. Scepter is a pretty good PvE weapon, but pretty boring.

Shield is viable, by the way.

@Eveningstar: I agree, pretty much. I’ve also pointed out on occasion that support (or control) isn’t something you do exclusively, but rather something you do in between damage.
That being said, support is still a (sub-)role you can specialize in through traits and skills and something that (some) players enjoy doing (especially within the Guardian profession) and want to do well. But if you can’t see the difference you make, or don’t have a way of seeing your effectiveness, that diminishes the (sub-)role somewhat and makes it overall less fun to actually play.
Control has this problem less severely, because of the strong visual component of it.

Wafflesomg.4820:

The real question though is: Do you enjoy it?

I don’t think that’s the real questions. Enjoyment and effectiveness are two wildly different things.
And it is indeed quite impossible to see how well you’re doing at support or control or compare effectiveness of certain support strategies.

So we are going to rehash the same topics every ten days or so?
In all seriousness, the chances of it happening anytime soon are minimal. If we get increased range capabilities, it’s more likely that the Scepter will change than that we’re getting a new weapon.

Zingery, you’re talking strictly WvWvW, right?
And even then, calling them completely useless is overly pessimistic, to say the least.

I personally preferred Focus, because the #4 ability strikes me as a bit more useful, utility-wise.

Am I the only one who rread: “I can’t see the difference between a real Mesmer and his/her clones,” as: “Clone AI passes the Turing Test?”
It’s not that hard to see, really and people already pointed out several ways.

Edit: I know there’s a typo in the post (two "r"’s), but it got censored otherwise.

I find the #5 skill more fitting for a shield than the #4. It reminds me of 300, where they all raise their shields to stop the rain of arrows.

“Shield is awful and whoever says otherwise, simply hasn’t tested the Focus or never played with the Shield.”
Played with both Shield and Focus roughly an equal amount of time. Did some Torch, but not very much. Still love the Shield, especially in sPvP. The #4 skill isn’t the best thing ever, but it works well enough. The #5 is just so amazingly good in sPvP.

We’re better at starting combos than we are at finishing them, but in my opinion, that’s okay. Combos are nice to have when soloing, but really shine in groups, where you probably have more people with good finishers.

Voltric.6920:

They’re the perfect class for manning siege weapons(great for getting bags of loot).

While I’m willing to accept that you find the Guardian perfectly viable in WvWvW, I dislike this bit. A profession shouldn’t need siege weapons in order to do good at WvWvW.

And I’m glad your build works out for you (this is me being honest), but outside of that particular playstyle (which I assume is rather hard to pull of in the really big fights), there’s not much a Guardian can do and get rewarded.

kousei.5914:

I have told my guildies many times that I wish the orb on #1 was faster and that #2 was a symbol. Other than that, it’s a good weapon.
Honestly, I really only want #2 to be a symbol so I can get the symbol traits (larger, longer, etc) to work with it :P

Stop stealing my ideas
I really don’t get why people are hating so much on the Scepter as a Guardian weapon. The Guardian is somewhat of a middle ground between mage and fighter, so it stands to reason that it uses weapons of both archetypes.

@Voltric (Why can’t I quote half the time?): It’s true that support (and control) is something you have to do in between damage in this game. This is true for every profession. Not everyone enjoys that as much as hanging back and being pure support, but that’s just the way it is.
Front line support can be effective and enjoyable, but it’s not really for me (and I especially dislike it in big zerg events, where you need near perfect play to pull it off).
So, bottom line, I agree with you, but I’d like to make two things clear.
1) If you’re doing support for 50% of the time (imaginary number) and you get Silver, you would have probably gotten Gold if you went full damage. Going full damage makes less of an impact on the overall battle, but gets rewarded more. That’s what’s annoying people to a big extent.
2) I started to play a Guardian because Arenanet said it was going to be the profession that would push the same buttons as dedicated healers for people who enjoy that. Fighting in the front line, occasionally doing bits of support in between damage, doesn’t really do that for me. I still like it, but I don’t love it. (Weirdly, this is less the case in sPvP.)

I’m currently level 50 with a support build (which I probably should swap out, because the group events seem to happen less and less). It’s perfectly doable. Just swap to more damaging weapons (Such as Greatsword) and maybe swap the major traits around a bit if needed.

I don’t think it’s a discussion worth having until something along the lines actually gets announced. And that probably won’t be soon. It’s more likely to see the Scepter changed than us getting a new weapon.

And: “Rifles!”

I somewhat agree. I often sacrifice personal gain (points) for more chance of a team victory, but it is hardly rewarding.

@killbill: I, personally, don’t mind helping other peoples. In fact, I love it. It’s why I rolled a Guardian and why I try to be helpful on the forums. If people ask what they’re looking for (for example: “Defensive Greatsword build”, or something), I’ll point them in the right direction, but I won’t make a build for them. Learning how your traits work is a big part in mastering the profession.
If they post a build, I’ll look at it and try to see what works and what doesn’t and maybe even post a modified build myself.

It’s annoying, yeah. I hate ending up 2v5 when things aren’t going so well.
Maybe a better way would be encouraging people to stay, rather than discouraging to leave?

It’s mostly in issue in 5v5. In 8v8 I don’t really mind. I approach that like I approach my TF2 games. Casual fun regardless of which team I’m on.

There don’t seem to be any traits in your link, making it hard to comment on the actual build.
The weapons and utilities are okay, but this might change depending on the traits you take.

That’s true Rainshine, but it’s pretty hard to make a really bad build without trying.
I understand Maximilious’ concerns, and I make a point of it of never giving builds, only critiquing builds people already made.

Yes, this works. I even think they’re on the same timer.

You sure have a lot of traits invested in support for wanting to focus on damage.
And consider the Hammer instead of the Sword+Torch. Goes better with your traits and provides a great mix of damage and support/control.

Chaz.1835:

I feel that the main weakness of our class is our low HP pool, we can do massive damage with Greatswords or Hammers in PvP but nowhere near as high as a Warrior with nowhere near the HP. I thought we were supposed to be some sort of magic knight hybrid? So why do we not have a happy in between when it comes to base vitality?

As I said before (probably in another thread). Of all the issues the Guardian has, the healthpool isn’t really the problem.

“Faster” than what?

I’ve already posted somewhere what I think.

1. Faster projectile speed with slower casting speed. Make this a projectile finisher.
2. Turn it into a Symbol.
3. Stays the same.

@shedim: I don’t think this will happen, nor do I think there’s that much support for it in the community.

Rainshine.5493:

I’ve used Line of Warding a lot too in both PvE and WvW, and that has its uses … I’d prefer it be insta-cast and non ground targetable if there has to be a choice between the two, though.

It used to be like that in one of the Beta weekends. Trust me, the way it is now is better.

Zsymon.8457:

It really makes no sense for a profession named “guardian”, a melee class with heavy armor, to have the lowest possible health pool of the game, I can’t imagine what they were thinking when they made that decision[…] People who cry “It’s all fine,” are usually the ones who stabled their guardian long ago.

First of, I play my Guardian almost exclusively.

The name “Guardian” implies nothing about the healthpool.
And no-one is crying “It’s all fine.” People are explaining why you’re mistaken. Guardian has problems, the healthpool isn’t one.

It’s not a full DPS game, but damage is purposely made stronger than support and control. Support and control are things you should in between damage.
I understand what you’re saying (Really, I do. I play a supportive role in any multiplayer game I play, both on- and offline.) But that’s not the game Arenanet made and neither is it the game they advertised.
As much as I hate the phrase, and rally against it: maybe the game just isn’t for you.

About line of warding…
There are a lot of skills who have ground target and instant cast… Why not this?
Cause is “supportive”?

Because it’s a stupidly powerful ability when used right. And it’s not actually support. In the terms of Arenanet, it’s control.

I like Shelter, since I can hold it of a bit longer, since I won’t take damage during the cast time, but Signet of Resolve is probably better.

Leeain.2431:

In my opinion Staff should be FULL supportive, no damage…
If you want damage just go Greatsword.

Staff is good for healer and supportive player. Not for “wanna be DPS”.

Pure support/healing goes against everything Arenanet wants in the game and doesn’t really work in terms of rewards.

Leeain.2431:

Line of Warding
5° skill should be the strongest one. See the Shield, or the others weapon. All the weapon are like this, but not the Staff. The Staff got low performance for a big cooldown.

Line of Warding is an incredibly strong skill. Guardians are the only ones who can physically affect the battle. And as I said before in this thread, either we get cast while moving, ground targetable or instant cast, but we can only have one.

@Aramanth: You came in with the wrong expectations. One of the first thing people generally learned about Guild Wars 2 was that traditional roles (tank & healer) didn’t exist.
That being said, you “tank” to some degree, by controlling enemies or preventing damage.
And we do that better than Warriors. Don’t be mistaken by our relatively low native health.
And there are already multiple viable builds floating around the forum.

I’d actually like to make a “revive-focused” build in WvWvW with runes of Mercy and Protective Reviver and the other revive-trait. Maybe take Signet of Mercy as well.

How is playing the Guardian different from beta? Most changes made since then are actually improvements to the profession.

Arkiels.9016:

I find Guardians to be overpowered in WvWvW. That’s the beauty of opinions, everyone’s is different. Go for a survivability, control, retribution build and you can really eat up a zerg.

You really find the too strong in WvWvW? Or are just proving a point?

So you made a thread to say that Guardians are bad in WvWvW? Couldn’t you just state that in one of the threads about WvWvW?

@Chii:
1) Scepter buff would indeed be enough. It would keep our ranged options very limited, but improve things a lot. And I’m not sure if buff is the right word for it. Change might be better.
2) I don’t understand this, actually. How does a Scepter not fit a Guardian?
3) I’d kill puppies for a Longbow as a ranged support weapon.

There isn’t one best build.
If you want to kill players, Greatsword would probably be your best bet.
There’s a build I’m currently tested posted in a thread about PvP on the second page.