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In addition to that, let players chip in for upgrades. A lot of players paying a few silver is easier than one player paying some gold.
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I like the Sword as it is, but I can understand who people would like a Symbol on it.
Here’s another idea for the Scepter: In addition to making Smite a Symbol (or a combo field of some kind), make the first attack a projectile finisher. Boom. Scepter is now a great support weapon.
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Here’s the build I use (roughly, I’m going from memory here, I don’t have my computer with me).
I’m going for full defensive stats to make sure I don’t die from average damage.
The Sword is there for damage, blinding and some protection from ranged attacks. The Shield offers me Toughness and the downright amazing Shield of Absorption, which I use to knock people of points and some healing.
The Hammer is mostly used for keeping people off points and otherwise occupied.
I use shouts because I generally like the idea, and relatively low cooldown Regeneration, Protection and Stability is pretty good.
I find Sanctuary very useful for defending points. It’s again something to keep people occupied.
I don’t really try to kill people, just keep them busy and off the point. I can easily survive any one player, and two players can be kept busy for at least a couple of minutes (two players are also harder to scare off).
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Bow probably looked more visually appealing.
Alternate hypothesis: Somewhere in the development of the game, Guardians actually had a bow (or Spirit Weapons worked like the conjured weapons of the Elementalist) and it was removed for some reason.
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Fixed it for you and you are wrong. Wrong.
Guardians are only at a severe disadvantage in one area of the game and that is big WvWvW battles. That does not mean the profession is broken.
A profession can has troubles without being broken.
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First of, no-one will ask you if you tried the Scepter. Despite the overall “okayness” of it, it’s not a popular weapon.
On to your build: Ditch Two-Handed Mastery if you’re only using the Staff (and you even admit to not using it that much). You’re group is probably better of with you taking Battle Presence, although other options are also a possibility.
I also wouldn’t take Healing Breeze, especially not since you’re going to stick in melee range. Signet of Resolve is a popular option, but Shelter might also work for you (it certainly has a “tanky” feel).
You say you don’t like the Staff, only using it for Line of Warding. Why not try the Hammer. It has a Ward (Circle of Warding), just like the Staff and also a Symbol in addition to some fine damage.
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Oh heaven (because what I actually wanted to say got censored without possibly being offensive to anyone except people who’ll take offense at anything), I forgot that one…
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Carsormyr, I don’t think anyone is claiming that Guardians are bad in 1v1 or even 1v2. (Probably someone is, but that’s not the point.)
In small fights, Guardians are amazing. But in zergs and sieges, we really can’t do that much. In melee you get killed if you’re not playing smart and are lucky. At range our playstyle isn’t interesting and not very effective.
So, do tell (genuine inquiry) how Guardians can be very effective in sieges. (And with very effective I mean both actual effectiveness in defeating the enemy and getting proper rewards for it.)
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1. I personally don’t like the Spirit Weapons, but they’re pretty effective. I’ve recently tested Consecrations, and they worked great, if a bit long on the cooldowns.
2. Guardians can do great damage, but your options aren’t that big. Also, burst damage in nearly non-existent, but sustained damage is more than adequate. Can’t really say if they’re better than Elementalists, as I don’t play one.
3. It’s doable. You’d just have to be smart with your cooldowns.
4. Yes, never had any problems with soloing 1v1 fights.
5. Not there yet, so I can’t really comment on it.
If your plan is to do damage don’t go guardian.
Shut up you.
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Changing the name on “Retreat!” has already been suggested multiple times, because it’s used for so much more than retreating (including leading a charge).
Previous suggestions have been: “Follow me!”, “Make Haste!” or “Move it!”
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@Zsymon:
“Do either of you even use the hammer as a main weapon?”
Yes. In every type of content. The “issue” you described is more or less non-existent. If you use the third chain attack, the animation follows your target and tries to land your symbol right on it.
The damage on the Hammer is good. Not Greatsword-amazing, but close.
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To people saying a Longbow/Shortbow/Pistol/Rifle doesn’t fit the Guardian: I haven’t heard a single compelling argument for that case. Just saying it doesn’t feel/look right doesn’t do it.
Guardians are divine (okay, their powers doesn’t actually come from Gods, but the archetype is there) warriors. They’re not priests or clerics. They’re fighters. Sure, they adapted their fighting style(s) to protect allies, but in the end of the day, they’re still trained to make sure the enemy has regret their choice to wake up today. They’re soldiers at heart, and they will learn to use a Bow or a Rifle if need be, because it will help them protect their allies and fight the good fight.
Too bad the devs don’t seem to care at all about fixing the range issue on guardians, all they care about is making dungeons impossible and
ruining any sort of ability to farm with diminished rewardsYou can’t be serious.
I fear the worst: that he’s not.
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I pretty much stack Power and Precision at level 40. So far I didn’t find my survivability lacking due to our skills, so I’m just focusing on damage.
I’m probably going to go for a more +healing set in the future, for better support.
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I still like my idea. Make Smite into a Symbol of some kind.
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No spell works by targeting an ally. You can’t expect Orb of Light to do so.
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Yeah, the thing with WvWvW is that you’ll get burned down _fast_when you enter melee range. It’s not that the Greatsword is bad for support (it’s better than most people expect), it’s just that being in melee range isn’t generally a desirable state in WvWvW.
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Oh the “hammer love” changes already happened? Why didn’t they fix the only major problem hammer had?
Probably because they don’t really see it as an issue. Because it’s not really an issue.
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It would probably work. I find the Greatsword an odd choice here, but no reason why it wouldn’t work. (And definitely carry a Staff with you to swap when needed.)
I would take a different heal. Healing Breeze isn’t going to do what you want it to do when you’re in melee range and to paraphrase an old truism: you do zero support when you’re dead. Shelter is pretty good in WvWvW, since it blocks pretty much everything.
Also consider taking Purity in the Valor line. You can’t really go wrong with passive condition removal.
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@Marlafox: You can’t really change Banish because of how useful it is in sPvP and PvE. Making it a knock-down would change the use of it entirely.
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Staff/Scepter/Torch/Virtues/Consecrations. Wards and Consecrations are game-changers. people, please don’t try to “heal”. Try to prevent damage, cleanse conditions, or boon your mates.
Where did you get the idea that people were trying to just heal? Most people here know what support is. And it doesn’t matter how varied you do it, the end-reward is the same.
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Look, as I explained (to you even) in the Guardian thread: I love myself some supporting. It’s the greatest joy I can experience in a multiplayer game. I actually don’t really like dealing damage, at all. Don’t know why, just how it is.
But if you look at the game (and the way the rewards are set up) and how the skills are set up, you’re not exactly encouraged to focus purely on support/control (we should probably see them as one thing for this discussion). You have “support-oriented” weapons, but there’s not a single weapon focusing solely on support. You’ll always have a damage option available. It’s why a lot of damage skills have support/control baked into them (or why support/control skills have a damage component, if you will).
If you read the articles Arenanet wrote before the launch, you’ll notice they talk about how people didn’t actually enjoy healing, or about flexibility, or self-reliance. They don’t seem to see support as a distinct role. More as something that helps you reach a goal in a different way than dealing damage.
I, of course, don’t know the actual reasoning or opinions of the Arenanet-team on this (and I’d really like to know), but looking at the way the game is designed, I feel safe to say that playing strictly support isn’t intended by design.
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As I’ve said on the Guardian forum, support and/or control are meant (in Guild Wars 2) to be done alongside dealing damage. You’re not really supposed to go full support. You’re meant to weave in support into/in between your damage abilities.
Whether or not this is a desirable state is a different discussion.
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While I enjoy the mental image of a blind Pikachu in front of a computer (I’m so going to take that picture tomorrow), the rest of your post isn’t really accurate.
So far, I’ve found myself caring uncharacteristically little about PvE in the game. So I’m hardly considering solo PvE (I’ll admit to my lack of knowledge about dungeons).
I’m talking mostly about (s)PvP. I also find it difficult to believe what you say about dungeons, since it’s not backed up by anything I’ve read. (Incidentally, to anyone reading this, could you back Kidel’s opinion up? I’m just generally curious.)
And did you actually play during beta? Because the people who claimed the Guardian was “godly and almighty” were:
- The same (type of) people who’re calling for Guardian nerfs.
- People who only thought about Tome of Courage.
- People who didn’t do WvWvW.
- People who only did Open World PvE (or sPvP in BWE1).
- People who didn’t actually play the beta.
- … (I’m probably missing a few, but you get the general idea)
The rest of us were on the forums, asking for more ranged, more rewards for support, asking for more mobility on our abilities (we were rooted in place for more than we are now)… Just as we’re still doing.
The Guardian did start out strong. Too strong. We did get a few noteworthy nerfs in beta because (and remember this) beta is for balancing. We’re a lot more balanced then we were at the first beta. We’re not as weak as you think we are.
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Not everyone cares about sPvP, I certainly don’t because I cannot use my equipment there and instead have to use some stupid preset items there and have less skills to choose from.
I can certainly understand not caring about sPvP. Guild Wars 2 is the first game where PvP is a major draw for me.
I don’t know what you mean by “use some stupid preset items [and] have less skills to choose from”. You know you can change your gear (both armor and weapons) and apart from the racial skills, all the skills are the same as in PvE.
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Guardian doesn’t need a powerup, it needs a FIX.
I’m going to keep it short, because it’s late and I’m ill and tired:
“Guardians are not broken and you should stop pretending they are.”
Guardians have flaws, yes. But no to the point that they’re completely unplayable (like you’re pretending they are). There’s a reason that Guardians are more feared in sPvP than Necromancers, and it’s not our HP-pool.
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I never had any real problems with Thieves. They come in, seem to blow all their damage skills (which I don’t really have a problem surviving most of the time) and then I smack them around a bit with my Hammer. When they enter stealth I either AoE smack the ground or switch to my Sword/Shield and use Shield of Judgment. Most of my fights against Thieves end up with them dead, or running away.
Mesmers are tougher. The amount of Conditions they can put up in a short time can easily overpower even a defensive Guardian. The Moa ability can also be hard to recuperate from.
Try to keep the conditions on you to a minimum (this is probably the weakness of my build) or counter them with boons of your own. Phantasms and, especially, Clones can be a pain as well. Try to figure out who’s the real Mesmer (it’s usually the one moving or using interesting abilities) and pummel him/her as much as possible. Do try to use AoE while doing so (even the #1 attack from the Sword can be good enough) because the Clones can rack up damage pretty quick, but die easily.
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“Guardian has been nerfed too much.”
You keep saying that, but apart from WvWvW, Guardians are doing fine. In multiple situations, with different builds.
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@ Ynna
“Our lowest HP pool is mitigated by our innate defenses.”AHAHAHAH
In most situations, my statements holds true. A WvWvW zerg is inherently unbalanced. You could be a Vitality based Warrior and still die from something stupid.
I did not claim that Guardians didn’t have any problems. At all. I try to acknowledge problems, even if I’m not experiencing them myself. Guardians have problems in WvWvW.
Our healthpool isn’t a problem.
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I can’t check, since I don’t have my PC here today, but I’ve been using a lot of Toughness, and you’re survivability noticeably rises.
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I’m not really keen on using the words “spirit” and “fantastic” in the same sentence. Post. Whatever. I fought a 3 spirit weapon guardian the other day and won every time.
I’m not a big fan of the Spirit Weapons, but they are pretty effective when traiting for them.
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drwookie: I understand completely. Coming from someone who completely loves pure support in any game (my favorite achievement I ever got was “First Do No Harm” on Team Fortress 2, rewarding you for not killing people at all, and still being top player).
It’s just something Guild Wars 2 seems to not cater to. Support or Control are things you do in addition to damage. That being said, I think you can do damage around 50% of the time and still get gold (at least in Dynamic Events).
And I haven’t played WAR, so I don’t know how support works, but in WoW Discipline Priests got hated for a long time because their absorbs didn’t show up on any meters/combat log. With Guild Wars 2 support, it might have a similar issue. Maybe Arenanet doesn’t have a system handy for calculating support rewards, and even if they do they can only check healing done and boons given (and maybe successfully applied non-damage conditions). This still leaves out: combo fields, combo finishers, well places Lines and Circles of Warding, Shield of Absorption…
And then you’d need to be able to compare all that with the damage and support of other players.
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ShadowbaneX, (mind if I call you Shadowbane or Shadow in the future, the X sounds funny in my had?) I understood what you meant. What I said was in addition to that. Calculating “support done” or “control done” isn’t that easy, but it might also not be something Arenanet is very interested in doing. And it’s not just the healing done. How do you calculate the effectiveness of a well-placed Line of Warding or Shield of Absorption? The effectiveness of your combo-field placement? It’s a similar problem to how I see myself doing support. It’s not that I don’t enjoy it, it’s that I have trouble seeing how well I’m doing.
@drwookie: The idea is that everyone is responsible for him(her)self. In that philosophy, no-one is 100% pure DPS, because you have to (at least) heal yourself. And the weapons generally have some variation outside of pure damage on them.
Support and control (in what I understand about the Guild Wars 2 philosophy) are secondary to damage. Something you do together with hitting enemies.
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- If you see Aegis up, use a weaker ability.
- If you can, keep your distance. The Guardian’s best ranged skill is Wall of Reflection, so even if he has a Scepter, you’ll come on top (Scepter can easily be evaded by running around and switching direction often.)
- Start slowly. Just keep up steady damage, forcing the Guardian to use his defensive abilities. Then, start nuking him down.
- Run away when you’re losing. Depending on the build the Guardian won’t be able to catch up to you.
- Apply conditions liberally. Guardians don’t really have problems with direct damage, but damage over time is a bit of a weakness.
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I guess in Anet’s case, it’s much easier to calculate amount of damage done vs health healed, damage negated, etc.
Also noteworthy is that Arenanet wants offense to be better (or more rewarding) than defense, in the end.
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Ynna do you even play Guardian or you simply like to be against common sense?
No, I enjoy wasting my time arguing with people about something I don’t play.
That was sarcasm.
Five seconds Protection, to a cone in front of you, on a 30 seconds CD and a 4 seconds bubble with ridiculous knockback on a 40 seconds CD. Do you think the shield is really viable? Common sense, please.
I mostly play sPvP (for some reason) and I would use the Shield even if it only had Shield of Absorption. Even without the heal. As I’ve said before, the Shield could stand some improvement, but it’s not as horrible as people make it sound.
And I’ve been mostly vocal about people claiming that our Shield doesn’t block.
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It does seem to have some trouble with the Z-axis and WvWvW gates.
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They just need to make Scepter’s hadoken fly faster.
Yeah, of course changing the Scepter a little bit would be enough. But really, who doesn’t want new goodies to play with?
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Keelin said what I wanted to say.
If Guardians were really intended to be frontline fighters or mid-range support, we wouldn’t have gotten 1200 range on the Scepter or the Staff. Arenanet wouldn’t have said “It’s a concern but this close to release we can’t implement a new weapon.” They would have said: “Yeah, that’s just how the Guardian has to play. Deal with it.”
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I’d have to agree that shields not blocking doesn’t fit the use of the item. The reason shields exist anywhere in history is to block potential harm. Yes I know, shields can be used offensively to bash or push, but you get shot at, slashed at, stabbed at, and attacked far more often than strictly attacking with it.
I don’t understand. How is the Shield not blocking potential harm? The whole Protection-boon is build around preventing damage (33% of it) and Shield of Absorption is preventing in two ways: by blocking projectiles and knocking back enemies.
You know what you should complain about? The Mace being able to block.
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@Eveningstar: If I remember correctly, it was BWE2. In the third we got the range increase on our weapons.
And the rest of your post is something I find myself agreeing with. I’d rather like to see a decent ranged option for the Guardian (Rifle!), but it’s probably not needed for a big part of the content.
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Guardians have WAY too much survivability. This is a joke, and I expect Guardians to get nerfed big time. Guardians are near unkillable and in tournaments, you cannot spend precious time 1v1ing a stupid Guardian on their point because you will likely never kill him and you’re just wasting your time letting the other team win because the Guardian will keep it capped.
Here are a couple of tips:
- Bring to players with a damage focused build. Start hitting the Guardian about a bit until he has used his heal and most other defensive options. Then burn the redacted out of him.
- Keep a distance and shoot the Guardian with one of your ranged weapons. Even in the case he’s packing a Scepter, you will be at an advantage and the Guardian either has to leave his point (giving you to opportunity to cap it) or die slowly.
- Just use pushes and other forced movement to get the Guardian of the point.
- On Battle for Kyhlo: just trebuchet the Guardian to death.
A defensive Guardian will never kill you, unless you let him. Use that knowledge to your advantage.
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Corsix: The problem with new weapons isn’t that they have to make a new weapon. The weapons are already in the game and we could just use the existing bows or rifles. The problem is that they have to: concept new skills, make animations for them, test them out, make sure they’re balanced with all the other skills and maybe make sure we have traits supporting it.
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Guardians are magic knights. bows and guns are not the tools of magic knights.
Says who?
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Nope. I think the lack of ranged options on Guardian might be by design, and for that reason, I want it to stay that way.
If it is by design, it’s bad design.
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I’m currently testing a build with two-handed weapons and Spirit Weapons although it is a bit of a hybrid between damage and support.
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I’ll say it once again: Rifles!
Or just change the Scepter.
@Shimond: What is it about Guardians that should prevent them from being viable at range?
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The hitbox for each race is the same.
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Supposedly, they work, but are just not reflected in any tooltips.
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I use Shelter mainly. Signet of Resolve is good as well.
I dislike Healing Breeze because it’s a cone-skill, which doesn’t suit a melee playstyle.
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