As far as I’m concerned any situation where people from more than one server are placed together on the same side counts as mega-server – I’m not that fussed about the nuances of how they get grouped.
The whole aim of such a “mega-server” is to fill a map with players. Doing this across NA and across EU servers means some maps will be full and others will be less full. The full ones will zerg – what else can you do when the map has so many people on: as soon as one side groups up to gain an advantage the others must too.
The less populated maps might allow for roaming or small group combat but people joining for a big blob experience will either taxi out or quit to return later. So it is quite likely that low population maps will either close or fill up and blob. This is exactly what happens in EotM instances. I thought one of the issues the new Deserted Borderlands was designed to “fix” was blobbing… so surely going to a “mega-server” system that promotes this is crazy (Oh, I forgot we’re talking Anet here aren’t we. Would they really introduce a system that promotes blobbing on an unpopular map designed to prevent it? No, surely not.).
The day that WvW turns into an extended EotM will be a very sad one indeed.
Mega-server is not the way to go – look at the number of posts where people complain about being shunted from closing map to closing map as the population shifts, and now imagine you get the “map closing” message just after you’ve cleared a whole BL… I’ll bet a kitten or two you get dropped into a map that’s no longer all yours; it has to be this way because the new map will have a higher population and so there will have been more fighting over stuff. So all your previous effort is wasted – map closed: have a nice day. Mega-server also promotes blobbing simply because it ensures larger numbers of players in one place. It would make small groups and roaming a thing of the past, and yet there are many players who enjoy the smaller scale combat more than the titanic zerg clashes, and many others who would like a mix of the two play styles.
We need some form of PPT – many of the fights occur because of teams attacking and defending objectives. We also need PPS so stomps count. We need space for big battles, small fights and duels. We need strategically placed objectives to fight over too.
I’m sure I’ve seen all this before you know… when GW2 was originally launched.
Anet could achieve a quick and surprisingly easy fix for WvW and the population problems, and they could do it next week. All they have to do is disband the existing servers, make new ones (purely for WvW) and set a population cap higher than the lowest current population and lower than the highest. New server names and new server identities gives us the chance to spread our playing population out a bit in this brave “new” world. Yes, some servers would attract the larger guilds and there would be the opportunity to start population imbalance again, but it took us three years to get to the state we’re in today. Reset the servers, reset glicko scores to zero, bring back the Alpine maps and hey presto – you have WvW as it was three years ago; and you know what, despite a list of unfixed bugs that’s longer than my arm and some odd match ups or dubious events – most of the past three years were enjoyable. I reckon we’d have a year or maybe two before we reach this sort of situation again. I’d be happy enough to swap the “but it’s not new” feeling for a couple of years of fun…
And who knows by the time we get to this point again Anet might even have this (mythical?) WvW overhaul ready!
I understand and sympathise with the OP – but then I’m also on IoJ and have been since launch so I’ve ridden the same roller coaster ride over the past three years. I also freely admit I’ve spent less time in WvW since the new maps than I used to – a lot less, and this week has not been a good time to return.
This is definitely one week where an old fashioned Friday reset would have allowed us a weekend of hope and the fun of a new match up instead of spending Saturday looking at the continued crazy imbalance and wondering why we should bother.
I’ve seen walls that look solid once they’re down and you can just run through them. So could be a bug rather than a hack?
The WvW active population is at an all time low. There are many reasons for this, but this thread is not about the reasons people have left – there’s plenty of other posts that cover these and hopefully Anet are aware of the issues.
Instead I want to question how we can encourage new people to become involved in WvW in the hopes that Anet will read our ideas and have the sense to incorporate some or all of them in the “Big WvW Update”. With this in mind, please do not post about wanting old maps back or wanting things to return to how they were years ago – new players will not have experienced these things so it’s not relevant to this thread.
If WvW is to survive we need to recruit new players – and these will probably be either players new to GW2/HoT or players who play PvE and could be tempted to try WvW. So how do we get them involved? I’m happy to accept casual involvement here because today’s new casual player may well be tomorrow’s dedicated WvW player if they enjoy themselves enough.
Things we can do as a Community:
1. Welcome new players and be tolerant of their lack of knowledge and their mistakes. WvW has little direction or support for new players other than what we make ourselves.
2. Command – either informally within a party or with a Commander’s Tag. New players need help learning what to do and where to go. If someone takes on this role it may help prevent them leaving too soon. Just partying up with a player for an hour to get them started can be a massive help. Good pug Commanders are a keystone for encouraging a new player to stay.
I believe most of us do these things anyway, so perhaps the best we can do at the moment is to keep playing – even though many veterans are finding this harder to justify because of the feelings created by the combination of recent changes, the lack of past support and a vacuum of communication.
Other ideas for what we as a community can do are welcome!
What does Anet need to do?
Or should this be “Why are these players not already playing WvW?”
I suspect existing players don’t see WvW as fun or rewarding enough at the moment. New players probably see it as empty or confusing. Perhaps the following ideas may help:
1. Introduce WvW exclusive sets of Armour and Weapon skins for players to collect. These could be in several tiers in the same way that there are Cultural weapon/armour sets, and could unlock according to WvW level. They should only be obtained via WvW participation (perhaps badges of honour?), but should be usable as a skin anywhere.
2. Change WvW chest rewards to include wanted items/materials. Introducing materials and items that are relatively expensive on the Trading Post would encourage more players to venture into WvW, if only to farm at first. For example if Linen dropped from chests when you take a camp we’d see a lot more players capping camps for the loot. It would even be possible for Anet to use WvW drops to balance the TP simply by adding items or changing drop rates.
3. Make Memories of Battle account bound. Yes this means that any player wanting to craft a new Legendary would have to participate in WvW for a bit, but this is no different to locking away WvW Guild Upgrades behind PvE content is it. And who knows, maybe some of these players would continue playing in WvW…
4. Look at the new Deserted Borderlands map from the point of view of a NEW player. It’s not very easy to navigate around initially, and if a new player can’t easily navigate around the map they are not going to have fun, and will not want to stay learn the intricacies of the map. A new player will not want to spend 10 minutes lost and trying to work out how to get to a fight or objective – even veteran players who had more incentive to stay and play have been strongly deterred by this. These days companies understand that a good/successful website has to be easy to navigate and people need to be able to get where they want within a reasonably short amount of time: this is also true for WvW maps. Making navigation of the new maps easier and quicker would be a big improvement for new players.
Other ideas welcome here too!
Don’t understand why this double posted, and removing one posting deleted the other one too.
Apologies for any confusion caused. Will redo later.
WvW is at a record low for active population, and we all have ideas on what Anet needs to do to fix things from our own point of view. This thread is not about those ideas. If WvW is to survive however we also need to recruit more players. These new WvW players will either be new to GW2 (including HoT) or they may well be PvE players. So what do we need to do to get these new players into WvW?
I’ll put forward two key areas and some ideas, but I’m hoping that you can add constructively to the list, and that Anet will read what we write and have the sense to incorporate some or all of these ideas in the “Big WvW Update”. With this in mind, please don’t post about how wonderful the old maps were or ask for a return to the way things were last year – these players will not have experienced those things so it’s not helpful to the question asked.
What can we as an experienced WvW community do?
1. Welcome any new players and be tolerant of their lack of knowledge or mistakes – it’s likely that things will seem a little strange for them at first since WvW doesn’t have the NPC instructions that PvE has.
2. Command – either informally within a party or with a Commanders Tag. New players will need help working out what they are supposed to do.
I think most people already do this. Perhaps the biggest improvement we can make for new players at present would be to continue to play, although for veteran players this can be harder to justify than it should be because of the feeling over recent changes and the vacuum of missing communication.
Other ideas welcome here… (but please not “Tell them to play Revenant” ! )
What does Anet need to do? Or perhaps – why are these players not already in WvW and what can Anet do to fix this?
1. Introduce WvW specific armour and weapon skins. Have whole collections of these like the cultural sets, that players can work towards gaining. To be account bound and only available via WvW play.
2. Alter WvW rewards to drop items that are comparatively expensive on the trading post. A good example would be linen. If WvW rewards gave Obsidian Shards, Crystalline Ore and other Ascended/Legendary crafting materials then PvE players would be more inclined to play for a bit… and a casual WvW player will become a more dedicated player if they enjoy their experience. Anet could easily use WvW to balance the TP simply by adding or changing the drop rate for materials in WvW chests.
3. Make Memories of Battle account bound. Yes this will force PvE players who want to make a new legendary to play WvW for a bit, but it’s no different to locking the WvW Guild Upgrades away behind PvE content is it. And who knows, some of the players may continue with WvW afterwards…
4. Look at the Deserted Borderlands in WvW through the eyes of a NEW player. It should be obvious that this WvW map is initially very confusing. If new players can’t find their way around in WvW easily then they are not going to have the dedication to stay learn the intricacies of the map… in fact many veteran players haven’t either. Companies understand that a good/successful website needs to be easy to navigate and get where you want to go within a reasonably short time: this is also true for WvW maps. Finding a way to make navigation easier and quicker would be a big improvement.
Other ideas welcome!
Hmm… hope this is helpful.
I’ve just finished the Hearts and Minds story. At the end, having (finally!) ranged Mordremoth down he lay there on the ground – zero hit points. Dead. No cut scene no fanfare or anything.
If this sounds familiar, read on…
It was only when I walked right up to him that I got a prompt to stomp him. This was what finished the episode and triggered the cut scene and rewards etc.
I know you’ve probably tried this, but thought I’d mention it just in case anyone hasn’t got close enough to see this prompt.
I’d really like to believe Zen Later, I really would. Unfortunately I’m old and cynical and have seen too much of human nature. I look forward to being proven wrong!
I can accept the idea of throwing away a match up every five or six weeks, although I would prefer to have fun every week of course. Unfortunately if you look at the glicko spread in NA you can see some clear gaps:
T1 and T2 are pretty close.
T3 and T4 are 170 000 glicko behind… that’s a massive gap.
T6 in NA has 100 000 glicko spread between the three servers, so does T7.
T8 starts at less than half the T1 glicko scores.
Matches across pairs of tiers may be viable but top to bottom differences are just too big. You can’t pitch a T1 server against a T8 server and expect the T8 players to suddenly improve (hint – it’s not player skill that has the major impact on glicko score). You also can’t expect T1 players to say “Hey, I paid for this game and want to enjoy it but you know what, let’s just have a week where only 10% of us play to make this fairer”.
I’ve seen what long term unbalanced match ups do to server pride. It’s not nice close up. Short term – say a week – that’s survivable, yes.
As for “And you never know, “lower tier” servers could end up learning a thing or two from better competition and get…better.” I can say from experience that yes, I did learn new things, new places to put siege for example. But the thing I learned most is outmanned 6 or more to one means you’re going to lose. I’m not sure how I could have “got better” learning this but I’m open to suggestions, even a year on… although I suppose I could have switched to PU mesmer?!
I would suggest that for NA servers (sorry – I have no experience on EU ones and can’t comment there) “this staleness has driven people to the top 3 servers” is in fact the reason why some match ups are so stale at the moment. Not sure how this is for the better though.
So here’s a positive and different thought. If you are on a higher tier NA server and you are fed up with the same match up over and over again – pick a server in the lower tiers (T5 to T8) and transfer. Bring a small number of people with you. Start commanding. Teach people. You get new match ups, new players and guilds to fight, and the satisfaction of watching your efforts bring a server up the ranks. What do you stand to lose? Just more stale and boring weeks…
And if a few of the guilds that band-wagoned up the tiers did this, moving to different servers, we’d have better population balance and probably a lot of fun too.
Whilst I have sympathy for the OP I am absolutely certain that random match ups are not the way to go. Let me recount a bit of history to explain…
Disclaimer: I’m on IoJ and can only comment from the point of view of my experience on my server.
A while back now we spent over 6 months facing pretty much the same servers in T3 NA so I understand the problems of repetitive match ups. The situation we faced back then was 4 servers with T2 glicko scores but only 3 spaces in T2. So one server was always put down in T3 and would spend the week absolutely flattening the other two servers there. I believe they did this to get a high enough score to get back into T2, it can’t have been that enjoyable for them and it certainly wasn’t for the rest of us.
The IoJ WvW guilds did the best they could for the first couple of months.
Then we did our best and complained a bit. You can read the forum posts if you look back far enough.
Then some of our WvW guilds and players transferred out to escape the boredom and frustration. It was, they felt, their only solution.
Finally we moved down the league and into lower tiers, dropping to T8 for a while before picking back up a bit. We’re still fairly low now just bobbing around in T6-T8 NA.
So back to the present day:
Having random match ups is a really bad idea. You’ll end up with top tier servers stomping lower tier servers for a week, or the top tier players will need to take time out to allow a more even match up and who is going to choose to do that?! Either way there’s no real fun for either side.
So while I sympathise with the OP, I have no sympathy with the situation itself since it is the result of the past actions of the servers involved.
The current population imbalance in the NA servers is the result of player choices and transfers. The persistent match ups are a result of the way scores are calculated and in particular the big differences that have opened up between some servers/tiers.
Perhaps one way to solve this is to reset the scores annually and start again. This might reduce the number of stale match ups and prevent six month long fixtures .
Another possible solution is to remove all the servers, create new ones with new names and effectively have a fresh start for both scores and population. Again, I suspect these would need resetting every year to prevent the situation we see today.
Random match ups are not the solution however since each server needs to face opponents of around the same level in order to get a decent challenge and maximum enjoyment. We are currently too spread out in NA for this to work.
(edited by Yuffi.2430)
Hmm… off-peak times (that’s 20 or so hours a day) and in the lower tiers (say the lower 5 or 6?) we don’t usually have “large blobs”. So while CrimsonNeonite is right – his post is true only for a small part of the WvW experience new players may meet, and to be honest, if you’ve already got big blobs you don’t need so many new or casual players.
I think Ins got it exactly right: “WvW needs to be easy to get into, fairly easy to learn and compete but hard to master.”
We need to get more people involved in the lower tiers and off-peak times. At the moment I suspect they either don’t see sufficient reward to play WvW or don’t enjoy it (and I suspect imbalance in match ups may play a part here). It’s been said before, and it’s still true – the new casual player is your potential WvW guild mate. If we can mentor them and help them, and they find it fun, we have another dedicated player.
It’s interesting to speculate, however does anyone really think Anet will hurry to introduce any new maps after the last one?
If each “borderlands” is a different map you risk the problem we already see – with players favouring one map to the exclusion of the others. Using the example suggested in the original post I would not be surprised to see queues for whichever BL is Alpine, maybe queues for EB and two empty new maps. How this will affect the match up scores is anybody’s guess.
Of course, Swagger may well reply saying that there need not be any servers disadvantaged because we’ll all be mega-server teams (I’m suggesting this response is likely based on his other posts and ideas – it is an assumption though and perhaps he’ll say no to mega-server after all).
However it could well be that what the OP really envisages is a 4 map EotM set up, which I suspect would please the WvW community about as much as the introduction of the Deserted Borderlands did.
Tofu: I think PPK has the potential to balance PPT scores a bit, after all PPK has the greatest impact on server score when there are most players on and PPT is probably the opposite.
Swagger: Clever – hadn’t seen that! All the same, I hope your prophecy is untrue – megaserver to the darkside belongs.
(edited by Yuffi.2430)
Just missed your last post. If you’ll stop talking about “night capping” which implies you are complaining about players taking stuff when you’re asleep then we can agree that the current scoring system is not ideal. Hopefully points per kill/stomp will help fix things since it strongly favours times with a lot of players on.
I still believe that there is no such thing as “night capping”. I’ve seen the charts and can re-do them with any time you want across the bottom. I stand by the point that the problem is people not being around to retake stuff – this is what lets the score build up to levels that you object to. I also note that this is NOT the case for every server… so I’m still not sure why it is considered a game wide problem.. but, meh, I’m not going to upset over it. You clearly feel strongly about it and you’re entitled to your opinion.
We’d be better moving on to look at ways we can encourage more players into WvW at all times rather then arguing about a problem that exists for some servers and not others.
Anyway, let’s chill, and play, and I hope you all have a good holiday.
I’m not trying to get at Dawdler or anyone else – he’s not the only person complaining about “night capping”. However I’ll say it again, because it’s true: the real complaint that people are making is that no-one from their own server is on to take stuff back. It’s that simple. So called “night capping” isn’t the problem, the problem is the lack of players on your own server to prevent the score building up. What I object to is the idea that somehow this needs Anet to “fix” the game for you.
I agree that a mega-server system would increase the per-map-population and smooth out time based population imbalance. Unfortunately it will also remove the traditional servers concept from WvW – something that many players do not want to see happen. Servers provide the sense of community that inspires players to play for objectives and for points. The whole “night capping” complaint is about servers (my server loses match ups because yours has more people on when we’re not playing).
EotM has always been mega-server and just look at it. It is hit and miss whether you get on a good map. K-training is rampant. No-one has Red/Blue/Green loyalty… they don’t care which side wins as long as they can still get points/rank/loot. I’m really not convinced that this is the way forwards for the WvW game mode.
I can see the point of objectives decaying to neutral without player interaction. I can see the point of boosting rewards to attract more players. I can see the point of making servers WvW only, renaming them (so there is a fresh start) and having fewer servers so the WvW population is more concentrated. But ultimately the situation we have now has been created by player choices – whether selecting an initial server to be with friends, moving server in search of what they want at the time, or staying put in a quieter server.
It is the variety of players in WvW that make population issues for any time zone so complex. We’re better off looking for positive solutions for all players rather than trying to penalise people because they play when we don’t.
A decent set of reward tracks would be good. How about ascended armour with WvW specific infusion slots? More varied WvW infusions. WvW specific skins. Just take the PvP reward tracks and fractal rewards and tweak those to have WvW based content.
I understand that WvW reward tracks might draw some people out of sPvP – hopefully those players who have just left WvW because they aren’t getting enough loot and don’t like the neglect here. If it brings in new players to farm all the better. Err, I mean new players farming rather than we farm the new players… mwahahaha
Seriously though we need something to make WvW seem more rewarding and more fun so we can increase the player base. Helping new players find their way around is the start to inviting them to join our WvW guilds and having more people on more often.
If reward tracks can start this then I think they’re a good idea.
I know this may sound sad, but I’d rather be running around launching upgrades than standing around waiting for a fight to appear.
I’ve bumped into more people to fight while running upgrades than I have by running to the nearest crossed swords…
Dawdler – you really don’t get it do you. There is no such thing as “night capping”. Players cap stuff when they are playing. Period. I accept that scoring based entirely on PPT can make your own efforts seem worth less.
Whilst I agree that it seems wrong for a small number of players to take an undefended objective, it’s the same result when a big blob to steam-rollers a smaller defending force. So the issue is that at times stuff doesn’t get flipped back soon enough…
So your real complaint is that no-one from your server is on to take it back.
The fact that people insist this must be a game wide problem and demand that it needs fixing is laughable.
Who said WvW had to be fair? Try talking to Eradon Terrace about fair (they’ve been stomped at the bottom of NA T8 for a very long time). Let’s face it, life isn’t fair either but we live with that fact.
One of the ideas Dayra linked to was based on objectives returning to neutral if not refreshed. This would be fairer, and tbh I’ve suggested something similar in the past myself ( link here. ) This would at least require player interaction to maintain possession of an objective although a sensible refresh time period would be needed. It’s not been popular as an idea so far, but it would help avoid unattended tick scoring.
I don’t know what the solution is for encouraging more players (at any times). However I suspect that WvW needs an image upgrade so it noticeably offers more rewards and more fun to new and casual players – both of these issues are outside the scope of this thread.
At the end of the day (pun intended) there is no such thing as “night capping”, there are only players on line playing when they can.
If you want to fix time imbalance you need to recruit more players into WvW – ideas for this are welcome. A return-to-neutral timer might also help.
Population issues are the result of three years of player choices. There are players who chose not to be in highly populated servers, and those who preferred the more populated servers. They are both valid points of view and neither should be more important than the other.
What we need are ideas that positively seek to encourage players to defend in the quieter times rather than requesting Anet penalise those who play at a time we don’t.
Logistically the original post is a really awkward idea. To work, you’d have to try to get your guild(s) and other friends to select the same time-servers you select – that would be complex to say the least. You’d end up with the same situation anyway, just on fewer servers total. Then you have the whole – stop, save the score and who owns what, then virtual-shutdown (real servers don’t turn off) then start a new instance and everyone loads in at once… ouch.
I understand the point of the idea but it would be way harder to implement than megaserver, and that’s an awful idea too (EotM everyone?).
Every server has the same global player base to recruit from. Any time based population imbalance is caused by player choice. This happens. Anasau had it right in his post – most of WvW play time is NOT what gets labelled as Prime Time. So why should this count for less? Is it because there are fewer people on or because it seems unfair that those who do play for what is actually most of the game time have an impact that is directly related to the duration of this time?
PPT should not be the only score system – I agree with this. Points per stomp should count too. I’m happy with PPK instead of PPS if it awards one set of server points on the defeat of a player, but not if it gives points for everyone who tapped the downed player.
Scaling PPT to population is not a good idea. There are fewer players at non prime times so rather than encouraging more people into WvW let’s tell them they are less important and give them less reason to play…. If you think that players will come to believe they should log in more to make a difference then you need to look at the number of players who don’t WvW on Saturday anymore “because there’s no point, the match is already decided”.
Then there’s the problem of scaling. If you scale according to individual map population you simply reward the servers that blob up to outnumber and raize a whole map. Or are you proposing this on a total population of all maps and all servers within the match up… so when we’re outnumbered that’s fine but when the stampeding hoard logs off those of us left shouldn’t have full credit for retaking stuff.
I’m with Dewolfe on this one. Players contribute equally all of the time. If a player isn’t there for my server, whatever the time is, then the opponents would have, and should have, an advantage. I may not like this, but that’s life.
Ultimately, the hardcore WvW players will play until they quit GW2. What we need for WvW population is to attract more of the casual players, pugs and PvE and PvP players. They need a reason to play WvW whatever time they are on. At present they don’t want to for whatever reasons, so we can’t encourage them and train them and invite them to our guilds. To me addressing this is far more important than complaining that you play while I’m asleep.
I don’t agree with the concept of posting on behalf of everyone, but I actually agree with Roxybudgy. The top tier servers were open last time I looked so there has been at least a very recent chance to transfer up if you wanted to – and if you didn’t that’s fine too.
Like many GW2 veterans, I’ve been playing since the original beta. I’ve always stayed with the server I joined originally – this was my choice to make. IoJ has been up and down over those years and currently we’re in T7. That’s WvW for you. I’ve had plenty of opportunity to transfer to another server if I wished.
Why do people keep assuming that somehow I will enjoy WvW more if I’m forced to move to a server with a much higher population? Am I not allowed to enjoy what I do at the moment?
I also disagree with some of the original idea as posted.
Why should top tier servers get first pick – so their guilds can stay together. Ok – what about the 480 person guild I’m with? They don’t all do WvW and those that do are scattered across several servers so we don’t get the chance to fight together. Are we somehow second rate players who don’t deserve the chance to work together simply because of this?
Here’s an alternative solution – take the population of the top two tiers and spread them across the bottom six – we’ll have more balanced numbers then surely. Do I want this to happen – no. It would kitten off a lot of people and I don’t think they should be forced to move if they don’t want to… so why is this somehow considered an acceptable solution for people in the lower tiers then?
</rant><oh, hang on… there’s more…>
Oh and night capping – there’s no such thing. The Earth is round, it’s always day somewhere (on half of it actually!) so there’s always players sleeping and others playing. That’s geography. It’s been like this since before we were born and it hasn’t changed yet. Live with it.
Merging servers won’t suddenly make players able to play at times they can’t already. The OP is assuming that somehow all the non NA players will want to be spread across the servers evenly whilst the top tier NA guilds all get to stay together… Why should non NA players, or those who do shift work, or work odd hours, not want to stay on a server together with their friends (who probably play at similar times….)
Server imbalance is a problem created by players. If we really wanted to solve it we’d have spread ourselves out already and sorted it. Instead most people want things “fixed” so they can continue to play as they already do (provided the fix only affects other people).
I’m sorry if this comes across too strongly, I have no intention to offend others. I do however feel passionately about the wrongness of the arrogance that declares that only huge fights are good fights and people should only play at certain times. I have seen much in WvW that I respect (some examples stated in this earlier thread ) and I will stand up for these players where I think it’s necessary. This is one of those times.
The idea of renaming and restarting the servers (probably with fewer) is worth discussion, but should be approached carefully. WvW means many different things to different players and that makes it harder to achieve a solution everyone will accept. None of us have the right to simply tell the others YOU MUST PLAY THE WAY I SAY – unless, perhaps, you are Anet.
I have to say I like this idea – especially since I also suggested this a while back too although the thread is currently 25 pages back!
I still think it’s worth looking at, and I wonder if it would actually be easier to do than expected – there must be a gliding enabled switch in our profiles somewhere since I can’t use my glider in non-HoT maps so just turn this on for everyone in WvW… simples!
Even if only HoT owners can glide making the gliders targetable with damage coming off the glide endurance bar would allow non-HoT players to enjoy shooting them down.
A permanent updraft over keeps would keep aerial attackers out (or at least make it very hard to drop in undamaged), or give a 1 second on-landing skill lock penalty. I’d be happy enough with flak turrets instead.
I would really like to see Commanders given the option to designate Lieutenants or Squad leaders for each separate squad. This could be limited to players who have a Commander tag.
I envisage these Squad Leaders being able to display a tag (either their own commander tag without making new squads or a new specific tag). They should be able to issue squad commands and have some of the functionality that a commander has. When a commander leaves the squad the Lieutenants should be the priority choice for tagging up to take over.
This should allow experienced Commanders to help more within the main squad group, provide better support if the Commander leaves (or is killed and has to run back!), and should allow squad groups to function more independently under a Commanders direction.
Changes seem to be a decent step in the right direction – but the most important thing for me is that finally someone from Anet has posted in WvW forum.
Gaile – thanks for letting us know and seeking feedback. I hope this signals a change in policy for WvW and in future there will be more of these “here’s what we want to bring in, what do you think?” posts. In cases like this your player base represent many many hours of play whether casual or hardcore and whilst you’ll never get 100% agreement, that combined experience can help review ideas in a way that would take the development team months to do.
I like the suggestion (somewhere in here) of reviewing any changes after a trial period too. This is no different to doing regular balance reviews.
One point I’d like clarified though – camps upgrading. They don’t need dolyaks to arrive so will they just auto-upgrade on a timer (no change) or will they require human interaction (my favoured choice)? It does make a difference for single roamers, and leaving us to start camp upgrades would not be a bad thing imho.
This is a nostalgic post, and is probably not constructive, but the sentiment is true.
Losing easy-to-build Guild Catas has hit lower population servers and small groups the hardest, at a time when they actually need more encouragement to continue playing.
Now for the long narrative bit you don’t really need to read to understand the above point, but I’ve included it anyway for those people who like to read these things
It’s taken me a while to realise the full impact of changing the supply needed to build a guild cata.
Previously I could +5 the nearest camp, go to a tower, drop a guild cata and tag up. With a brief supply run to finish it, I either had built the cata myself or I had player support, or both. Job done. Next. Occasionally, in a moment of enthusiasm, I’d set a cata going against a keep. It even worked once: it was sooo nice to whisper the Commander in EB and invite the team over to finish capping Bay. To be honest though, keeps were rarely undefended because opponents wanted to retain their way-points and hard earned upgrades.
Now, my catapults sit silent. Three or four non-simple runs is too much. No cata means no tower cap, no fighting the defenders who appeared, no fun, no points, and ultimately fewer players.
Now I know you’re going to say there should be more people, or that when you play there’s always enough people on to build all the siege you need. I’m sure you’re right, especially for top servers at peak population times – neither of which describes the majority of the WvW space-time continuum…
Guess I’ll just have to go back to feeling old and grumpy.
Now listen up you young ’uns – when I was your age things were so much better! We had real WvW with real catapults, and real fights and none of these new fangled tactics things you keep going on about. Why, I remember the time when we…. …. …. (fades into long and exciting but probably inaccurate narrative).
I would guess OP is either in one of the remaining active WvW guilds or a high population server (or both).
Let me point out what fighting on THREE maps means to a small group on a low population server… the new maps that you say provide a superior play style of fighting have divided our small team into three – or we have to give up on our “corner” in one or more maps if we want to have better numbers.
Before: Assume we have six dedicated defenders. I’m using six because that was roughly my experience, sometimes it was fewer, rarely more. On one map we used to roam around and scout and upgrade stuff, or sit in an objective and upgrade stuff. When an opposing group came into the map we rallied together to make our defense – six people could defend a keep or tower fairly well.
Now: Let’s say we still have six defenders who play. We don’t have anything to upgrade so there’s nothing constructive to pass the time while you wait – sentry duty is short fights with long spells of boredom in between. Who wants to play a game just to be bored? The six defenders either have to split between three maps – that’s only two players per map – or stay on one and give up two thirds of our territory. How is this situation superior?! Defenders are divided and attackers are complaining that there’s no defenders to fight – it’s obvious why!
Sadly there’s a lot of good points raised in this thread.
I’ve been a casual player(limited by RL commitments not a lack of enthusiasm for GW2) since the original Beta tests. As someone who has variable playing time available and often at off-peak hours, my WvW experience has been mostly solo or small groups. I’m happy with this really, as I find zergs tend towards “spam 1 and tag as many targets as possible”. My play tended to be defensive, upgrading and scouting, with occasionally tagging up to recover my home BL. My friends list is mostly other players who do the same and we would help each other.
The expac launch removed the reasons I played in WvW and stole my hard earned +5 claiming. I didn’t see either of these coming – in fact I felt disappointed because the implication was that my +5 claiming would be available as a permanent bonus.
I also feel that the way-pointing in the new map has destroyed the feeling of “home” and for me it’s no longer a borderlands but simply another EB map. Again this is something I didn’t anticipate – I thought the new maps would work the same way as the old ones, after all that had been ok for 3 years.
Looking at the future there are rumours that Anet are working on a major update for WvW, but there seems to be no official news or community consultation. I’d like to believe the best and make positive predictions but I’m no longer sure that will happen. I get the impression that the people making the decisions don’t actually understand WvW and are either afraid to ask for help or just choose not to. That’s a real shame and a problem – WvW is a fantastic game mode and was the end game for me.
Overall I’ve gone from having fun to feeling excited about new content to feeling lost and now slightly worried because they’re threatening more new content. This doesn’t do much to encourage my participation or spending.
I think this thread belongs here since Guild Halls were introduced with HoT.
Can someone explain why the Guild Hall arena doesn’t have PvP and WvW modes?
At the moment I can enter the arena with guild mates and we can test out PvE builds. When I was asked about joining one of the Guild PvP teams I thought we could practice against each other and learn how to build and play a team together – but I can’t select PvP mode when I start the arena instance. Do I really have to make/buy all the stuff I use for PvP?? I’m not even sure it would work anyway as some of the stats are different in there.
It’s the same for WvW – I have a separate build but would have to manually swap things around to practice in the arena.
My PvP builds and WvW builds must be saved on my account somewhere. The Guild arena should give the choice of PvE, PvP or WvW mode when the instance is activated. The arena should then be governed by the game rules for that mode – so my existing PvP build is already equipped when I enter a PvP arena, and I can’t use food buffs.
Without this functionality – what’s the point of the arena? WvW and PvP are the player competitive game modes. Why would I want to only test my PvE build against other players?
Even PvE mode could use some work. It would be more useful if it gave the option of spawning world boss NPCs to fight – so i can practice in a team or solo against different world bosses. That would be a proper PvE test.
Ok – worst case scenario – assume megaserver or alliances goes ahead (I know some of you actually want this, but I don’t and there is a point to this that still matters to you).
TLDR: Anet – if you go with Alliances or Megaserver for WvW you need to provide us with an in game voice comms function that auto-assigns players to the correct channels.
Here’s why:
With the current Server system IoJ has a server wide TeamSpeak that all guilds can use. We verify players are actually on our server before allowing them out of the lobby. I suspect all servers have a system something like this.
If we have guild alliances, the guilds in your alliance may be from different servers – so you need an alliance TS. Oh, and you might change alliances, so player loyalty needs to be checked each time a match up occurs. What about the players in more than one guild? It’s unlikely each of their guilds will be in the same alliance…
OK, megaserver then. We need Green, Red, Blue TS servers capable of taking everyone who plays and uses TS… Again there is the issue of guilds/players changing sides particularly at the start of match ups. This is a lot of work.
I’m not even thinking about spying – just making sure I can talk to the people I’m supposed to be playing with.
Currently the funding for TS servers comes from players who care enough about their server to help crowd fund voice comms for it. I don’t see Megaserver generating the same level of loyalty or feeling of ownership. Alliances might, but players may be in several alliances, so any loyalty may be divided.
So if Anet creates this problem the least they can do is provide a solution too – an in game voice comms function that assigns WvW players to the correct channel as they change guilds/factions etc. This can be developed in house, or contracted out, but must be integrated into the game to allow auto allocation of channels.
That is exactly the point: the “home” borderlands is no longer mine. What we have is EB version 2. I’m willing to bet that this has happened because someone looked at EB and said “look at all the epic fights there – that’s what we need more of…” and kinda missed the point of the home borderlands.
There were a number of players who played to defend their borderlands against invaders. If they wanted to play in an EB style map they would go to EB. I’m basing this statement on my personal experience and the 150 or so replies in Archonwing’s sticky about constructive feedback. I know it’s not everyone, and that’s fine, but it is a fair number of people and removing their game play isn’t fine.
One of the problems we have is the players who like EB already play there – why should they come to a map they don’t know as well? For the borderlands players – we’ve been transferred to EB style play. Period.
The new system has killed variety – you can play EB style on one central map, or you can play EB style on three identical maps where the only change is who gets North. The T0 east/west keep waypoints provide an advantage attackers did not previously have – a foothold in my borderlands that the home team now can’t have access to. I can imagine players asking: “what is there to defend? Why should I bother?” and so they don’t.
Making upgrades zero cost to players but manually activated, and returning the keep waypoints to who ever owns the keep at T3 would go a long way to restoring some feeling of a “home” borderlands. However to build for the future, why not drop towers and camps into existing maps. It wouldn’t take much work, especially if some of the ruined castles around the game are given temporary fortifications (perhaps dependant on the supply collected there like we see in HoT) and it would extend the “story” behind WvW and give us more variety. Something new without losing what was good… isn’t that worth a thought?
I quite like some sort of lore or back story to my games, as long as it doesn’t get in the way too much. The point of a borderlands is that it is your border and beyond it are untamed expanses and enemy hordes…
Assuming a three server match up as we have at the moment, we could have a combination of maps that cater for different play styles. Just select the map you want from the WvW screen.
3 Borderlands maps, one per server. Smallest map.
3 Region maps eg City, Rural, Tundra. Intermediate size map.
1 Central battleground. Largest map.
Borderlands are the edge of our home server territory – so you’d expect supply camps, a couple of towers and a large keep (Garrison) protecting a citadel. There should be spawn points for attacking forces, and intermediate objectives to defend/capture. The old Alpine BL map did this pretty well, so something similar but a bit smaller.
The Borderlands maps should be server based and cater for small groups/roamers being able to defend against small or large groups. Taking a complete, defended borderlands should be difficult (with appropriate rewards).
Region maps are the land just beyond the borderlands – untamed as yet. These could be pieces of Tyria – existing map sections. I thought a City, a rural area and a tundra would give variety. Imagine 3 groups fighting for domination in Divinity’s Reach or Ebonhawk, or battling over the rolling hills in Kessex, or fighting amid the desolation of Frost Gorge. I’d be happy to see diffrent bits of Tyria on rotation.
These regions could be alliance or multiserver – the spawns being Red, Green and Blue so there is always some action regardless of server population. The map would be aimed at skirmishes between small to medium groups with objectives to take that give some bonus/support in the home borderlands (thinking along the lines of the Ogres in EB) perhaps in the form of improved defensive/offensive capabilities (eg Ogre NPCs to support BL guards or raiders).
The central battleground would be like EB with a large objective in the centre. It should cater for large group battles with open areas and towers and keeps. This map is the fourth “country” we’re all fighting over, and should give rewards as such – maybe more resources, more ppt or better magic find/loot (or all three) as you control more of it.
I think this should cover most WvW styles. Small GvG in the Region maps but scope for roamers too. Zergs and strong keeps in the battlegrounds with space for epic battles and rewards to suit yet a role for scouts, and finally defenders solo, group or zerging in the home borderlands as the need calls.
Server play is retained and made meaningful, but with the option of alliance or megaserver approach for the Region areas – sort of bringing a relevant version of EotM into real WvW.
If this sounds a bit like what we already had that’s no coincidence. WvW has actually been pretty good for the last 3 years, and the basic ideas would still work.
So:
1 – Would this sort of combination work for a wide enough variety of players?
2 – Which bits of Tyria would be worth turning into WvW regions?
I don’t think the idea is to convert players to a different style – that’s not something I would support!
A good map should have areas/incentives for each play style.
There needs to be:
> purpose for scouts and roamers,
> something meaningful solo players can achieve,
> space and incentive for groups to gather for large fights – whether in the open field or outside a keep for example,
> some way for new players to jump right in and quickly learn the ropes,
> enough complexity/variety for the veteran players to enjoy,
> several viable strategies for defending/attacking
The real challenge is to design a map that can allow all of this, and the more people with different play styles who contribute the more chance we have of developing something that is an acceptable compromise.
We have more people who can suggest ideas than there are devs at Anet, and we have more WvW experience between us, so let’s try to help them and make WvW a better place for us all.
Then the question is why do they rep other guilds?
I am a member of four guilds (although I admit one is very very small), and I appreciate the different levels fo support each has to offer. My main guild is mostly PvX with some WvW action (no, I know that’s not a dedicated WvW guild and it doesn’t matter – what I do is what matters). I am also a member of a smaller more dedicated WvW guild. I’m really grateful to both – they both support me with help if I call out and both allow me access to resources I wouldn’t have on my own. Before the guild cata nerf my PvX guild missions were my best source of cheap guild catas. I’m just sorry that new players will bot know why this was important.
One of the good things about HoT is the fact that I can now see Guild chat for each guild I belong to and so I can respond to call outs from any. Sadly I get less of these at the moment, but that’s a topic for another thread.
I would whole heartedly agree – join a guild or two – you have nothing to lose and everything to gain.
In my opinion a fundamental issue with the new maps is the auto-upgrades. This has caused two issues:
1. When I played on the old maps (lower tier, quiet times usually) there would be a few dedicated players either roaming to flip recently lost camps or checking on upgrade progress. I enjoyed being part of this. It meant a lot of running around but that was ok because you could see opponents coming a way off and report their location (scouting) or just run the direct route between places and start the next upgrade.
The problem is this is no longer a viable play style as far as I can see, and these players were the dedicated people who spent hours in game and would call for help if an enemy group turned up.
2. With auto-upgrades there is no need to have players on the map to progress the state of the map. Players now know this so why bother staying to defend an upgrade? For attackers (or flipping stuff back) it means unless you can get to the objective before the first auto-upgrade completes your job is made much harder. Again this has had a much bigger impact on roamers, small groups and for times of lower map population (most of the 24 hours that WvW is available for).
If I had to summarise it I would say that someone set out to produce a map that would provide a more intricate game play for larger groups and a higher level of map population, and completely missed the quieter stuff that goes on in the background.
As a final point, the side keep waypoints are designated for nearest spawn use. This makes every map like EB. You can’t take these keeps to gain a faster response time to an incoming threat, at best now you can take the keep to deny your opponent a waypoint – that’s a very different feeling. Personally I preferred the diversity of play that EB and 3 BL maps gave rather than having the four EB style maps we have now, so for me this waypoint allocation is also something that went wrong: spreading any defenders between 3 maps and making my home borderlands feel much less home like.
I know this is just my opinion, but I hope it helps answer your question.
Lol – glad you feel so confident Swagger, and I hope you have a good time – seriously.
However please show some respect and don’t tell me what I will enjoy or not enjoy.
I do know I’m not sure I can learn to love something I don’t want and would not play. I suspect I may not be alone in this feeling.
Why not do both?
I personally don’t want an alliance or megaserver situation but I understand why it’s being suggested. So why not:
1. Keep EotM – it servers it’s purpose.
2. Keep EB as a central map for all 3 servers in a match up.
3. Restore Alpine (or new simple map) as server home borderlands (three maps just as normal).
4. Use Desert map with it’s current waypoint ownership for colour alliance play (with three maps, one for each colour alliance).
Everyone gets a chance to choose. See how it goes, and review after 3 months…
There is already a megaserver WvW map. It’s called Edge of the Mists. I’m quite happy for other people to go play there if they want to – I’ve even been there a couple of times myself…
BUT
I like playing in a small group that can make a difference and where personal skill matters more in a fight than sheer numbers.
I like roaming and upgrading things.
I enjoy solo or party scouting.
I want to be able to choose a map that will allow me to do the things I enjoy. I have EotM for k-train, EB for big fights, and I used to have home borderlands for small group work. See, there used to be something to suit all play styles.
If I wanted to be on a server that queues for WvW then I would have transferred to a higher tier one. Indeed, now they are all open I have another chance to do so – but I don’t want to.
I will not presume to tell anyone else on this forum how they should play WvW. Stop trying to force me to fit into what you want.
Let me keep my choices.
There’s something in the water… er future… maybe…?
Just to set the record straight – I’m a part time optimist and want to believe some of what I’ve read: All these hints and screenshots and quotes – WvW is getting better and some sort of major improvement is being worked on.
So, Anet – with the release of HoT you gave us snippets of what was to come – the odd screen image here, a hint there, a brief summary of the new specialisations and a little preview of new masteries.
And now there is something being developed for WvW… so go on, tease me, please! You know you want to!
The layout of the original maps was right. Each server had their home borderlands and we all had an equal footing on a central map we could fight over. Home borderlands should be easy to defend (and therefore much harder to conquer). This is fair because it’s the same for each server. I’m not the only person who remembers the ebb and flow of colour in EB while my home BL was defended and kept the “right” colour by the efforts of a number of dedicated home BL players.
The new WP layout changes all this dramatically. We now have 4 EB style setups. This has alienated many who enjoyed defending their home BL and spreads those who seek the ebb and flow of battle across 4 maps. This is a quite a shift in philosophy and I don’t like the fact it effectively removed a play style that I know some people enjoyed.
Having a WP on each home BL is not the same at all. Any players who want to defend are now spread across three maps instead of being concentrated on one. I know TeamSpeak spans map boundaries but map chat doesn’t, and it’s not uncommon for TS to have separate channels for different maps anyway.
Before the new waypoint changes you knew a home borderlands would be defended (with extreme prejudice) and if you did manage to take a foothold and even get a WP in a T3 keep it really felt like an achievement.
My home BL should belong to my server. It does not have to be equally accessible to my opponents – they have their own. The waypoints in my home BL should be mine and give me faster access around my home map. If you can take them from me then you’re doing well and deserve them.
In short, I believe the changes to WP ownership has turned the borderlands into EBmk2. This has adversely affected a number of players and the way the map is played. No-one should have an automatic right to a WP in my home – they should earn this by conquest (which is what WvW is about anyway).
It’s good to hear that Anet are talking to, or will be talking to, some selected WvW commanders but this also worries me.
I understand that probably people can’t be named, no problems there, but look at the current Desert Borderlands: if you wanted a map that was good for large group epic fights then it’s actually not bad at all. What has killed it however is the fact that it’s not easy to learn your way round from the start and many of the roamers and small groups feel they can’t or don’t want to face T3 upgrade stuff all the time. It seems to be the quiet time players and smaller groups who have seen the biggest impact of the change.
If you go by numbers then reset onwards for 2 hours is a lot of players – and it’s about big fights. The other 22 hours are a bit quieter… and we need WvW to work then too.
If you go by numbers then the top tiers make up perhaps the majority of WvW players – and those players are on those servers for the big fights. The other 5 or 6 tiers are a bit quieter and we need WvW to work for them too…
Either way, if the conversations between chosen players and Anet don’t include some people who understand the smaller scale of play for non-prime time and lower tier servers, I fear we’re going to face the same situation we have now.
I think it’s looking good.
I was thinking about the tower in the centre. I imagined a tall tapering tower with a largish flat platform on top (like a light house with a helipad). I would put two stairs spiralling up the outside on opposite sides of the tower (DNA double helix style). This would allow people to race to the top, or if you’re on top to run away down the other side…
I would have three platforms partway up the tower. These would be open internal flat floors designed so the stairs run past outside and you can step “inside” onto the floor area. This would allow some interesting fighting as control of these levels would affect movement on the stairs, but you could stealth past if you wanted to.
I’d have the lowest one fairly plain for a fighting area. The middle one would have a claiming console (commune style like tranquillity in PvP?) or Lord to fight and defeat to claim the tower. The top level would house the waypoint.
The very top external platform would have an interact that allows players to claim a single use glider function that would work for ANY player. This would allow you to glide from the tower downwards until your gliding endurance bar runs out. Ideally this would have a range that puts you very close to (but not inside) a key objective.
Why? The tower becomes strategic because the quickest path between any two points is a straight line and gliding would allow this.
The waypoint should be in the level below so players can’t just spawn and glide off – a brief run up the stairs (internal or external) gives a short time for an opponent to attack.
I don’t think gliding would unbalance the map too much – after all you can’t attack when gliding, and any roamer worth their pay should spot an incoming glider zerg… The advantage would be about being able to take a quicker direct line route to objectives (probably the 4 towers and two side keeps – I’d have the home garrison equivalent keep higher up, but you could land close to a southern gate maybe?). The map design so far seems to have a roughly circular separation of locations from the central tower so this could even work.
Anyway, I’d best stop here before I get too carried away here and end up with something too complex or unbalanced! Would it work? Don’t know, what do you think?
Would it be fun? Yes (IMHO).
Would it be fun for more than 5 minutes? Now that’s the tricky question…
Thanks – I’m aware of Archonwing’s sticky and have posted there. However he is asking very different questions as I’m sure you know having read both.
This thread is not asking for recommended changes to the new maps, but asks instead what features do we as a WvW community think make a good map to play in – in other words what should Anet include in order to make any map we can all enjoy. They have had a try themselves with the Desert Borderlands and given the number of posts about it I thought it may be worth giving them some help in a positive way.
Despite the title, Archonwing’s thread is mainly asking about the impact of the new BL on players: probably so Anet can realise how what they have done has affected the people who play in WvW. The only overlap is where he asks “How can the new BL be improved”. This is not the same as “What features make a good BL map and why?”: firstly because I’m not suggesting we limit ourselves to using the new map as a starting point if we don’t want to, and secondly because I’m inviting people to explain why they think a particular feature is needed (so the devs can understand the reasons for any suggestions).
Hopefully this helps clear up why I thought this is worth a different thread.
TDLR: The two threads ask different things for different reasons.
Thanks for the replies. One of the critical things seems to be to keep a range of objectives and events so all players have something they can do.
Are there any other things a good BL map needs?
What features does a good borderlands map need?
Rather than asking someone to guess what we want in a good borderlands map we can help by putting forward constructive ideas. Please keep to listing features and explaining why you think they are needed – this is NOT about existing maps. Also please remember that we may have differing opinions of what is needed – that’s ok: the purpose of this thread is to give Anet a better idea of everything our community thinks a good map requires. So make suggestions and explain them and we can hope they pick the good ones.
I have a few ideas to get us started but it’s not perfect. Please add your ideas too.
Keeps
Should be worth defending or attacking so must have some strategic value. Way points should be an upgrade and should be useable by whoever holds the keep. Keeps should be the hardest objectives to take on a map.
Towers
Towers need a strategic value, either because they provide support or refuge for an attacking force or because they provide a defensive role. Towers should be able to be taken by a standard party of 5 players.
Camps
Need to have value for defenders (supply for upgrades/repairs) as well as attacking teams (supply for siege).
Sentries
I like the idea of sentries “spotting” players and want to keep this. Sentries should be veterans that a moderately skilled player can solo. I’d put sentries on the easy routes between objectives, particularly at junctions. Perhaps sentries could have a talk-to interaction to give players directions to nearby places?
Terrain
Happy with a variety of terrain so no personal preference here as long as I can get from A to B and can see a reasonable distance. The terrain should give a variety of open spaces near key objectives such as keeps where large fights can occur, and in other places choke points to help prevent blob rule. I’d like to see some environmental things – I miss the houses and villagers (and chickens) we used to defend in the North of the old maps, and they provided relevant cover for sneaking about or chasing people round.
Routes
There should be one easy “pug” route to each objective so inexperienced players or people new to the map can easily move around. There should be other routes that are less obvious and provide some benefit, for example less chance of being spotted, or easier to defend if you’re being pursued.
Other features
Upgrades should follow a set pattern but require human interaction at each location for each step. An empty BL should not upgrade itself. Upgrades should take time and require a proportion of the supply held in the objective (denying supply to places under siege is a valid strategy and rightly requires the defenders to make tactical choices).
Yaks and sentries should drop materials for WvW guild upgrades so roamers, small and big guilds alike can collect these in WvW.
I know different people have different play styles and want different things from WvW. I’ve stayed with the same NA server (IoJ) on the roller coast ride of the last three years. That’s my choice and is due to the feeling of belonging – server pride I guess. We’re currently in the lower tiers, and have been as far down as the bottom (T8). While I enjoy an occasional big fight (usually in EB) I personally find there is more fun to be had in small group battles and I enjoy being able to make a difference to the outcome of things.
I wish people would stop trying to tell me that my server must be merged with several others for my own good. I like the variety I have at the moment (or had pre-HoT) and forcing changes on me because it doesn’t match your own idea of what WvW should be is plain wrong.
I notice these solutions are always “merge the bottom tiers”. How come no one suggests forcibly moving half the top tier players down into the lower servers – that would even out WvW population wouldn’kitten Problem solved: but probably not in an acceptable way!
Edit: Lol – seriously? Even with a space? OK.
Last paragraph should ready without the kitten: “… that would even out WvW population would it not?”…
(edited by Yuffi.2430)
I logged into WvW for the first time after the latest patch and find that my home BL no longer feels like home. Take a close look – the keeps and waypoint ownership now make it very like EB… and this worries me.
EB is a good middle ground to play in – there are some good fights there, but I would always defend my home BL first before checking into EB. If my BL was all the right colour I’d go to EB, if it wasn’t I would try to make it the right colour first, including tagging up if necessary to do this.
Lately EB has been the place where a lot of the veteran WvW players have been going to play, perhaps shunning the complexity of the new Desert map. Please, please someone tell me this is a bad dream and Anet have NOT thought – “Oh, people seem to like EB, so we’ll make ALL the maps like that and that will ensure players flood into the new maps”.
That home borderlands was my home (think about the meaning of that “home” word) and I, like many other players, took pride in defending it for my server. At least with a home BL we had somewhere that was ours and we would defend it to the death (or multiple deaths if out numbered!).
Is this just anther step towards some form of megaserver WvW ? We already have this in EotM – and we know how most WvW players view that!
Do Anet really not understand that we need both home maps to defend AND jointly owned maps to fight over? The old “home maps with EB in the middle” set up did this did this well, so why change it?
I’ve posted this idea in a different thread (with a more boring title) but it may be worth repeating here too.
How about making yaks and sentries drop WvW guild upgrade materials? Even one or two random items per kill selected from the list of stuff that WvW guild upgrades need would help. It should be as simple as altering the loot tables… I would keep it to sentries and yaks because roamers and big groups alike can take these. I’d do this for all BL maps and maybe EB but not Eotm (that’s too K-train anyway).
Doing this would give all guilds a chance to obtain the materials they need for the guild WvW upgrades from within WvW itself. It would give roamers a purpose again – either gathering mats or denying mats to another server. Protecting yaks and sentries would become meaningful again. I think it would also allow small guilds to play in WvW and not have to PvE grind simply to recover our stolen upgrades (I’m fairly sure “stolen” is the right word here). I know it’s not as good as simply reinstating the original buffs we had, but assuming Anet won’t back down (which would cause a LOT of complaints from larger WvW and PvX guilds who have already sunk gold and time into trying to recover buffs), perhaps this idea would be better than the current situation. What do you think?
I also feel that auto upgrading is a problem and would really like to see upgrades as free (no cost to player) but manually activated because I think few people would bother to stay to upgrade in enemy borderlands and small guilds/roamers would find more T1 structures to take. Not sure if this is an issue for bigger WvW guilds though: at the moment I think larger groups can do pretty much whatever they want (except find another blob to fight perhaps).
I have a simple idea to bring people back into the new WvW Desert BL maps. I think it should be easy enough to implement and will help players and WvW guilds of all sizes.
Solution:
Make yaks and sentries drop WvW guild upgrade materials. One(?) random item per kill selected from the list of stuff that WvW guild upgrades need. It could be as simple as altering the loot tables…
Why:
Keep it to sentries and yaks – roamers and big groups alike can take these.
It doesn’t matter if it’s across all WvW maps (but preferably not EotM that’s too K-train anyway) – people will start to come back to farm the yaks and sentries for their upgrades. It gives roamers a purpose again. We might even get PvE farmers too. It really doesn’t matter provided it brings people into the maps. It would also start to supply some of the WvW upgrade materials (Heavy Supply bags for example) that guilds sorely need, and WvW guilds could get this part of their Guild Hall upgrades from their preferred game mode. It would help us get back to the bonuses we had pre-HoT.
I suspect you will end up with people spawn camping yaks and sentries. On the other hand this won’t be too safe as other players will know where these points are and it will lead to both small and large fights (and complaints but at least people will be in the map and fighting like they are supposed to!).
This ^ is not constructive – and that’s the problem right there.
Whether I like the new maps or not, someone (or more likely a team of people) has spent a long time making them, and that effort alone deserves some respect. The maps must have taken quite a time to make, and pre-HoT there were many posts complaining that Anet were ignoring WvW and demanding something new to make it more exciting. Desert BL is new and is an attempt to provide something a bit different, so you can’t really say Anet never listened before!
As I understand it, the point of this thread is to try to get a feel for what we think has changed and how it has affected us – it is an attempt to understand what happened and why Anet’s vision of the new map is different to that of many of the WvW players who have posted here.
This thread is a quiet place of reason not a toxic rant. In my experience quiet reason gets listened to more than ranting – so feel free to answer the OP questions, and add your voice in a positive way.
Typical hour:
Defensive play, mainly in the home BL. I play at non prime time and so played to solo roaming or in a small group, mainly because there are far fewer people on at this time. A typical hour would have been running around the home BL upgrading anything we hold – aiming to get waypoints in Hills and Bay for mobility when the prime timers wake up, checking on the progress of upgrades and retaking anything we’ve lost that I can cope with. I would often be solo, or temporarily join with another player. Guild catas were great for this because 2 of us could build one cata quickly to retake a tower.
I don’t have the skill or reflexes to take a fully upgraded camp solo, or to take a keep without help, so I would use map chat to request support. I had built my personal guild up to the level required to +5 things, allowing me to repair defences or build siege faster. If the home BL needed a commander for a major clean up I’d tag up. With experienced players around we’d often just sort things ourselves. I would also go raiding in opposing BL maps, and if I could find a few like minded people I was happy to run/command in a small group (usually party sized) and flip anything we could cope with.
EB:
Played occasionally in EB, but would often prefer to run support in home BL or havoc in an opponent’s BL. Would always respond however to a call for help from EB if I could.
New BL:
I have spent perhaps an hour in there since launch. That’s not enough time to learn my way around properly, and since the map feels much harder to traverse I don’t feel motivated to stay and learn it. There’s no need for me to start any upgrades and I can’t solo the upgraded stuff in opposing BLs. The only thing I can do seems to be to re-flip camps if I can catch them before they upgrade.
Times:
A group of us from my main guild (450+ PvX group) took a keep because we were in a BL for a Guild mission camp capture and hold and decided to do the daily which was keep capture. There was one defender who had little choice but to stand and watch as we got lost exploring his keep. It took us ages to get through the gates with a steady stream of people running supply for what seemed like ever more paper rams. The fight against the Lord was short and brutal. What I really noticed was the contrast between what a large group could achieve with little WvW experience against what I could now do when solo or in a small group. It was, to be honest, disheartening because I’m not a blobbing sort of player, but it looks like the way things are going.
Loot:
Laughable. WvW has never given enough loot. I’ve spent hundreds of gold over the years upgrading stuff and that pretty much all had to come from PvE play. WvW wasn’t self sustaining, and still isn’t. No wonder we have statements like “people who are into WvW are heavily into PvE too”. For me it used to be a mix, with WvW becoming the end game I preferred and could only afford because of my time in PvE – a bit like retiring and now being able to afford to do what I really wanted to. The new changes finally allow WvW armor to be salvaged – but at a poor rate. The only really good thing about the new changes seems to be that I no longer have to pay to get upgrades started.
How has the new map impacted my WvW time?
I have spent much less time in WvW since the changes. There’s almost a sense of despair really. There’s nothing I can do against fully upgraded locations, yak slapping has lost its benefits, I’m not needed for upgrades and when I do venture in to scout, there’s no one around. The biggest difference I see is on my friends list. As a roamer I built up a list of people who I knew I could rely on, including Commanders and other roamers – the sort of people who you can whisper and say “Hills is nearly fully upgraded and we need help defending it” and they would turn up either solo or with a group behind them. Most of these people now are showing on my friends list as not in WvW. Many are, I guess, trying to regain the guild bonuses they used to have before the update and so are facing the PvE grind. Some seem to have swapped WvW fights for PvP. These were the reliable players I could count on, and now, like me, they seem to have stepped away at least for a while…
I find the new maps, and that goes for PvE as well as WvW, to be frustrating. I really dislike being unable to get from A to B when I can see where I need to be on the minimap and can’t get there because there’s a big chasm or cliff in the way and I have to find a way around. I wouldn’t be the first person to think the new maps were designed with gliding in mind. My real life situation means I don’t get long hours to play, and I feel I’m spending so much time trying to get to places now instead of actually playing. I don’t mind investing time in the game when I can, but I do want to get player satisfaction from the time I get in GW2 and this is sadly lacking at the moment.
Where would you find me in GW2?
Sometimes in HoT. Occasionally in Tyria. Occasionally in PvP. Occasionally in WvW. However the time I spend in any of these is slowly reducing, and I feel that’s a shame after 3 years of loyal play. Looking at the long term view of making more challenging content that requires more players and more group coordination, I can see this fits less and less with my game experience when I can play. I have really enjoyed WvW in the past and had looked forward to playing WvW after HoT. I’d read that guild bonuses would become permanent (yes! – no need to queue +5 supply and no more buying influence for my personal guild to fund it!) and that upgrades would become free (I could keep some of my hard earned gold!). What I got was not what I hoped for.
Things that really affected my WvW experience:
Change in supply cost for guild catas.
Complexity of the new maps (in particular the verticality and the loss of waypoints in the lower keeps).
Automatic upgrades – everything is usually at full strength when I log in.