The fact is that thieves need stealth to stay alive.
I respectfuly disagree. DD helped me survive better that stealth.
DD is not Thief. Those who don’t own HoT cannot access DD at all.
Karl said this yesterday in the Ele forum.
Bam!
Thanks everyone in advance for your constructive feedback. Please keep in mind that we’re getting close to day zero and that the smaller the change, the more likely we’ll be able to discuss and action that feedback. This isn’t the end, however. We’ll continue to make changes, when necessary, after HoT releases, as well.Thanks!
-Karl
Well, Raiment of the Lich is actually very old, plus it really doesn’t look like a martial arts master outfit. The monk outfit would be a good bet if you really want to spend gems. I recommend either Human or Asura, as Human could be made to look like a Kungkittenmaster, and Asura because they have the best animations and feel very nimble.
True. I intentionally made each skill easy to implement as they should be able to reuse existing assets for that reason.
I wasn’t originally going to post this here, but…I changed my mind I guess. Copy pasta from my thread.
A lot of people are still saying they feel like the dodge selection should be baseline and toggled (some say out of combat some don’t) so we can get actual grandmasters. Here is what I think:
Create an F3 DD profession skill. The skill itself will change depending on which grandmaster you have selected, and should complement it’s associated dodge type. It will also have a pop up that allows you to switch grandmaster dodge selection while out of combat for convenience. Note: these aren’t dodges, and don’t use endurance, they just gain functionality based on endurance.
Lotus Training → F3: Poison Bomb Barrage
Cast time 3/4 second
Range 200 – 400 (randomized per bomb)
Field radius 120
Cooldown 15 seconds
Spin around, tossing bombs in all directions that leave behind a poisonous cloud for 5 seconds. Toss 2 bombs per full bar of endurance. Deals poison damage on impact and each field pulses poison every second.
Reasoning: It should provide an excellent set up for lotus whirl finishers, and help D/D condi as well. The poison duration from the skill itself should be minimal, as it’s meant to set up other skills, not melt things on its own.
Unhindered Combatant → F3: Bolt
Cast time 3/4 second
Range 400 per full bar of endurance (1200 max)
Cooldown 15 seconds
Dash to target area. Clear cripple and chill if you have at least one full bar of endurance, immobilize and slow if you have two, and stun if you have three.
Reasoning: To allow fast movement without using all of your endurance or initiative, and provide a means of skipping out on shortbow if desired.
Bounding Dodger → F3: Slam
Cast time 3/4 second
Range 600
Cooldown 15 seconds
Leap to the target area, dealing damage. Cripple targets if you have one full bar of endurance, immobilize if you have two, and knockdown if you have three.
Reasoning: Sets up further leaps from bound or vault that would otherwise be much harder to land.
If each dodge gave it’s own complementary profession mechanic like this, I can totally accept them as grandmasters.
A lot of people are still saying they feel like the dodge selection should be baseline and toggled (some say out of combat some don’t) so we can get actual grandmasters. Here is what I think:
Create an F3 DD profession skill. The skill itself will change depending on which grandmaster you have selected, and should complement it’s associated dodge type. It will also have a pop up that allows you to switch grandmaster dodge selection while out of combat for convenience. Note: these aren’t dodges, and don’t use endurance, they just gain functionality based on endurance.
Lotus Training -> F3: Poison Bomb Barrage
Cast time 3/4 second
Range 200 – 400 (randomized per bomb)
Field radius 100
Cooldown 15 seconds
Spin around, tossing bombs in all directions that leave behind a poisonous cloud for 4 seconds. Toss 2 bombs per full bar of endurance. Deals poison damage on impact and each field pulses poison every second.
Reasoning: It should provide an excellent set up for lotus whirl finishers, and help D/D condi as well. The poison duration from the skill itself should be minimal, as it’s meant to set up other skills, not melt things on its own.
Unhindered Combatant -> F3: Bolt
Cast time 3/4 second
Range 400 per full bar of endurance (1200 max)
Cooldown 15 seconds
Dash to target area. Clear cripple if you have at least one full bar of endurance, immobilize if you have two, and stun if you have three.
Reasoning: To allow fast movement without using all of your endurance or initiative, and provide a means of skipping out on shortbow if desired.
Bounding Dodger -> F3: Slam
Cast time 3/4 second
Range 600
Cooldown 15 seconds
Leap to the target area, dealing damage. Cripple targets if you have one full bar of endurance, immobilize if you have two, and knockdown if you have three.
Reasoning: Sets up further leaps from bound or vault that would otherwise be much harder to land.
If each dodge gave it’s own complementary profession mechanic like this, I can totally accept them as grandmasters.
(edited by Zodryn.4216)
MEGA HUGE BIG ISSUE:
class icon being a boot is really bugging me. It just doesn’t fit the theme (I know Hermes and whatnot, but he was not known for the thievery, but as a messenger boy). I really hope you don’t change it, and if you do, it’s something more sinister than a boot.Hermes is also the god of the Thieves. He was actually known for sometimes tricking others gods for the sake of humanity.
But it’s not the thief icon, it’s the daredevil icon. Also, when I think of Hermes, I think of the version from the Disney movie.
Shadow Trap needs to be changed to a teleport. Just like mesmer portal, you must physically be at the desired destination. Also, it only teleports one person while portal can teleport entire zergs. Straight line check is not acceptable on this skill, as it normally causes a five foot shadowstep into a wall rather than a much longer port. There is no reason for it to remain a shadowstep.
Edit: destroy shadow trap should be a teleport, while shadow pursuit should stay a shadow step to prevent things like breaking into keeps after your target steps on the trap and enters the keep.
(edited by Zodryn.4216)
Can we get a bug fix on Bound for the weekend?
It’s very hard to test since it interacts differently with fields than it will at launch. This is important since it heavily impacts P/P and S/P play.
Overall, it feels much smoother! I love dash, and I actually like all of the staff skills except the auto.
- Staff 4 could use a line field (dark or smoke) for more play options.
- I really like the new Distracting Dagger animation, but the daggers are too big (on Asura at least).
- It would be nice if Bound and Vault had a bit of height. It feels weird when it falls short due to higher terrain. Also, 100 extra range on Vault would be nice.
I already know dodge animations will be fixed and the heal cast will be reduced, so thanks in advance for that! I appreciate your hard work!
They changed bound to be a blast finisher rather than a leap finisher. It is nearly impossible to land in black powder if any of you were intending to use it as a heart seeker like skill.
That is a bug Karl addressed already.
@Ausfer, please read the OP. Everyone knows the animations are bad and we want them fixed. We don’t need to fill another thread with comments about that.
(edited by Zodryn.4216)
Is this a DD build or a Thief build?
I just came back because of the xpack, but I thought you had to have a staff to be a Daredevil.
If I am misunderstanding something could you please explain.
Thanks.
You can use staff, but you can also use any normal thief weapon. It would suck very badly if you could only use a single weapon when you take an elite spec.
Don’t you see how many times you have to tumble around and how much damage you’ve actually made?
Have you ever played an S/D thief before acro was gutted? That’s the playstyle. Always evading. And it does enough damage to have been meta right up there with D/P back in the day.
You’re not taking into the account the type of conditions you’re receiving. In my Reaper build, I can apply Blind, Bleed, Chill, Cripple, Fear, Burning without effort.
So I only need to worry about bleed and burn then. That makes it quite easy. I can basically ignore the others. Fear might make me blow a stun break though.
Isn’t that exactly what I’ve posted so far? Due to the cons of the OP’s build, he needs to play harder than he should and stay sober?
No, he just needs to not play like an idiot. Have you ever opened a fight by blowing all of your evades and other methods of survival? That’s what you’re expecting, and any thief worth his salt doesn’t play that way.
Ok, there’s the problem. Nobody is going to open by blowing all of their endurance. That would deal no damage and leave me open to attack. I’ll open from 1800 range with 2 and steal. After the steal daze wears off, I’ll use 3 to dodge your first attack and land my third hit (got off an auto while you were dazed). I’ll eat your second attack to land larcenous strike and then do another flanking strike, removing 1 condi. If you applied more, I’ll retreat with 2 removing another condi and then reengage with 2 or a dash or signet depending on my needs followed by another 3 chain which will remove another condi.
If I get a bit low, withdraw. If I run out of endurance, I can remove a condi and refill endurance with a signet. I’m not saying I would never have conditions, but evades both prevent them being applied in the first place and remove ones that get through, and this build has a lot of evade access.
Naturally, you will smash a thief who mashes dodge until they’re out of endurance then mashes 3 until out of initiative. Good players time their skills and dodges so that they are effective though. That is true of any class, actually.
(edited by Zodryn.4216)
Update: BWE is LIVE! Have fun out there!
Please refrain from hateful comments, unproductive statements like “Staff sucks, gg” etc. Also, they already know we want new staff animations. No need to continue beating that dead horse. Also, keep in mind that the dodge animations are currently “stubs” or placeholders.
The final BWE is nearly here. The purpose of this topic is to provide feedback on thief/daredevil throughout the weekend. If Karl/another dev would like to chime in here and there, I know we’d all really appreciate it. Please share your experiences and thoughts on:
- Practicality of skills. Is a certain skill reliable? Does it do enough damage or perform it’s function well? How’s the cast time?
- Trait synergy and effectiveness. Do traits work well with each other and with traits from other lines? Do they perform well in practice, not just on paper? Do they define builds well?
- Does daredevil feel unique from thief (given that acro has changed, please avoid comparing to pre June thief)? Can you create fun and useful builds with the tools it provides?
- How does thief (not daredevil) fare against daredevil and other classes introduced in HoT. Keep in mind, all elites and even base specs have received significant changes since the last BWE. Please give feedback based on this weekend and not past experiences.
- State one thing you really like about daredevil.
- State one thing you dislike/want changed about daredevil.
- Any other thoughts that don’t fit in the above sections.
(edited by Zodryn.4216)
Sword 3 is a dodge and attack, so yes you can deal damage while removing conditions with evades, even without lotus or bound.
Um, no. Sword 3 will not trigger Unhindered Combatant’s condition removal since it is not a Dodge. You’ll know when you used a dodge is when you dashed instead. Only then the condition removal from UC will trigger.
Keep in mind that “evade” means that you are evading an attack, but like I said in my first post, I can deny you that removal by not attacking you instead I’ll just load you up with conditions.
Sword 2 is a spammable gap closer, plus we have steal, and this build runs inf signet. That’s 2700 range if you want to go overboard. Chill will not keep me from getting close.
Did you even bother reading what I’ve posted?
So ok, you got close, then all you do is dodge because as soon as I hit, you get a condition.
Yes dash itself does no damage, but neither does a normal dodge. Are you never going to dodge on your reaper because it doesn’t do damage?
The point is, Thief relies on stealth and dodge to survive while other professions do not. And while you’re trying to survive, you deal no damage.
Of course not. You’ll use it as needed for damage mitigation. You’re not going to lose because you dodge your opponents attack. Nobody ever said the build consists of dashing all of the time.
If you want to remove the conditions then you have to. I can apply the conditions faster than you can remove them and you’re only real option is to run away.
Ok, I see where our disconnect is. You are under the impression you can somehow load someone up with conditions without ever hitting them. Please tell me what skills you’re using. Weapon skills, shouts, wells, corruptions etc. can all be evaded by either dodges, weapon evades, or utility evades. Also, other evades (read: sword 3) are just as effective at removing damaging condis as dash will be (provided you’re using a skill that’s evadable, which you must be to do any damage, condi or otherwise). Dash just has the benefit of also removing any inhibiting condi.
Yes vs necromancer this build will struggle, but in all honesty the amount of reveal from other classes means using SA trait line and focusing defense around stealth may be futile, if necromancer and maybe D/P thief are the counters to this i prefer that to playing a stealth orientated build and getting revealed by revenants, engineers, rangers.. Everything has a counter against it, just a matter of which has the least lol.
Yeah, stealthless is the only way that’s why the build has cons. Having cons doesn’t necessarily means it’s a bad build, it’s just that you have to play harder and sober.
So basically you’re saying everyone is screwed by Reaper, because if it gives a daredevil serious trouble even with good condi removal and practical immunity to inhibiting conditions, where does that leave everyone else?
Reaper will screw everyone, yes, that’s why you need other ways to deal with the situation.
He’ll be evading constantly (removing 1 condi each time) AND dealing damage with sword 3. If you do manage to land some nasty conditions, he has plenty of options including dodging. You are acting like dodging is a bad thing.
It is. The more you dodge, the less damage you make….it’s an undeniable fact.
Sure, dodging isn’t dealing damage, but we can just mix occasional dodges with weapon evades.
Lotus Training and Bounding is your only choice if you want to maintain DPS while dodging, but of course, you’ll lose the chill removal on dodge.
Also, chill doesn’t affect our weapon skills, so if we don’t want to cleanse it with a dodge, we can keep attacking with little consequence.
Not if you can’t get in melee range. Are you then going for a shoot-out against other professions who out-ranged you by 300 range?
You have no stealth, thus any profession can keep you in a distance. And if you manage to get closer, all you will be doing is dodging and evading…until you die or run away (if you can).
BWE 3 is Holloween for Thieves.
Sword 3 is a dodge and attack, so yes you can deal damage while removing conditions with evades, even without lotus or bound. Sword 2 is a spammable gap closer, plus we have steal, and this build runs inf signet. That’s 2700 range if you want to go overboard. Chill will not keep me from getting close. Yes dash itself does no damage, but neither does a normal dodge. Are you never going to dodge on your reaper because it doesn’t do damage? Of course not. You’ll use it as needed for damage mitigation. You’re not going to lose because you dodge your opponents attack. Nobody ever said the build consists of dashing all of the time.
The only reason I’m ok with daredevil is that we finally get a leap with staff. Otherwise, the DD traitline should have been acro in the June patch, and our elite spec should have been something different. The only way I can see to remedy this is to make acro something new and unique (so DD is basically an old spec and a new acro gives us a different way to play).
Ok so say i was overloaded with conditions i have a 24 second recharge on signet of endurance that clears all and replenishes all endurance.
Ok say that wasn’t enough the enemy saved some condi burst applied more even if i went in for damage by dodging and using sword 3 i will be stripping a couple of condis while dealing damage – this is without using my heal.
Say the fight is going utter kittens i can always shadow step and cure 3 condis and use dodges for swiftness and get the out of there.
In my honest opinion conditions will not be an issue to this build with the D/P meta build at the moment we deal with conditions through stealth which removes 1 every 4 seconds ( we don’t deal damage – this also prolongs the fight ) then we burst in and out the same principle applied with sword 2 (or steal or signet or shadow step ) in burst with sword 3 couple of auto come out cleanse, rinse and repeat – after every successful dodge we get a 10% damage bonus on top of having 70% crit chance and abou 235% crit damage and 3k power, a solid health pool and good plentiful conditions cleanse and a means of mobility.
I’m speaking from the perspective of a Reaper and I’m telling you, my Reaper build will give your Thief build so much problem. Unlike stealth, where it’s harder to stack conditions, your build is a static target.
That is all.
So basically you’re saying everyone is screwed by Reaper, because if it gives a daredevil serious trouble even with good condi removal and practical immunity to inhibiting conditions, where does that leave everyone else? He’ll be evading constantly (removing 1 condi each time) AND dealing damage with sword 3. If you do manage to land some nasty conditions, he has plenty of options including dodging. You are acting like dodging is a bad thing. Sure, dodging isn’t dealing damage, but we can just mix occasional dodges with weapon evades. Also, chill doesn’t affect our weapon skills, so if we don’t want to cleanse it with a dodge, we can keep attacking with little consequence.
S/P and P/P should be less forgiving than D/D. P/P has terrible damage mitigation and no stealth. S/P damage is near impossible to hit with and has no stealth.
Because lower skill players have issues with stealth. “Omg perma stealth thief 20k backstab and resets with full hp any time I hit him.”
You remove 1 condi on evade, but remove every inhibiting condi on dodge whether it was an evade or not.
Every dodge removes chill bro, and so does withdraw.
No thanks. It shouldn’t take gutting our mobility to improve other aspects of our class. That is one of the primary draws of thief imo. If I didn’t care about mobility, I’d be playing a different class.
I vote for a silhouette of a bike jump across a canyon, Evel Knievel style…
More Cons:
- Load you up with conditions and watch you die. Since you rely on evade for condition removal, I won’t even attack you.
- Bleed, Chill and Cripple will be the easiest conditions to apply and you’d be wasting precious endurance and initiatives just to remove them.
- While dodging and evading, you’re not doing DPS.
- Confusion will cut your DPS.
- Chill will screw you over big time due to your stun breaks’ long CD.EDIT:
Suggestions:
Bountiful Theft -> Trickster (when you evade with Withdraw, you remove 2 conditions due to EA)
Shadowstep -> Scorpion Wire (condition remover)It’s not a bad build, just need to watch out for these Cons. Hopefully your 16k HP is enough to buy you time while you’re fully loaded with conditions. Have fun in BWE.
This build should not have condi issues. Three stun breaks, immob and inhib cleanse on heal and dodge, general condi cleanse on sword 2, shadow step, signet, and successful evade. How do you figure he will have condi problems?
I see no vitriol in the OP. I don’t really expect to get them no matter how we ask though.
I agree 100% with these updates to thief, but let’s not forget bringing back the original Feline’s Grace. I miss my endurance gain on dodge! (Even if it had to be a selected trait)
Agreed. I doubt it’ll happen though. They should at least give us some natural vigor (like ranger) in acro that stacks with normal vigor.
It’s duct taped to the underside of the table.
Actually, if ricochet allowed a bounce it always went to the maximum number of targets. The chance didn’t reset per bounce. Crit chance is separate though. The trade off for easier multitarget hits compared to AoE is the 250% cap vs 500% of AoE. Original ricochet could sometimes give 400% though if you were lucky.
Edit: also do you wonder why P/P wasn’t meta even when ricochet was available? Because it’s really not as good as you make it seem on paper. It does a lot of damage, but one dodge or block mitigates a huge amount of your dps and prevents bouncing. Also in a realistic scenario you don’t hit 14k on every unload. More like 7-9k depending on your target.
Edit 2: you mention that ricochet would be mandatory if it existed. Well, you’re absolutely right, which is why so many people are bummed that it’s gone. It wasn’t an auto win trait, it was necessary to make any kind of contribution on P/P. It was also fun. For this reason, I support making it baseline, BUT I want to be able to choose the trait so I can decide whether to have shadow shot bounce or not.
(edited by Zodryn.4216)
I should note I could see a split of say 75%, 50% and 25% when traited into my proposed Ricochet-lite working well, but I’d rather foster good reasonable discussion with starting at a reasonable point and debating it than requesting something outright broken and then being surprised the answer is just “no”.
I agree we should ask for reasonable changes, but ricochet is not at all unreasonable. Here’s why:
I just spent awhile testing the limits of unload in PVP. Zerk, scholar, force, starting from maximum initiative for lead attacks, executioner, all ferocity boosts in CS, signet for bonus power. No fire sigils etc. as I’m just interesting in the raw damage from unload itself. After hundreds of tests, the best unload I got was 14186 damage against a light golem. Usually it was closer to 10k. According to the wiki, they have 14k hp, but somehow it still had an invisible sliver of health left and took one auto to kill it.
If ricochet always bounced to three targets and dealt 50% to each extra target, in the absolute best case possible (all bullets hit everyone and every single one crits) that’s:
14186 + ( 7093 * 3 ) = 35465 damage total vs 4 targets
A lot, right? Well, now let’s look at another skill. I ran the same set up to test mind wrack. Zerk, scholar etc. with mental anguish and compounding power. Second try mind wrack destroyed the light golem, or about 14k. It consistently did around 12k. This can hit 5 targets, so absolute best case that’s:
14k * 5 = 70k damage total vs 5 targets
They each have advantages and disadvantages. Mind wrack is harder to hit the maximum amount of targets with, but it has twice the damage potential in a single use and can be instantaneous if set up right, so it’s harder to dodge or react to. Unload has no cooldown, and can be cast 3 times plus 1 per five seconds if initiative is full to start. To keep the maximum damage potential per unload, though, you need to use it once per 5 seconds. It’s also very easy to react to and dodge, block or what have you to mitigate the damage.
Many other AoE skills could also be looked at for comparison. A lot of classes have great 1v1 damage, but can also pressure whole groups because most of that damage is AoE. I don’t really see how ricochet is any different. We keep good single target damage, while gaining decent team fight pressure. If it’s really too strong, you can just reduce the damage on the bounces until it’s reasonable. You don’t need to also take away the single target damage.
/End rant
I’d repost it in here, but might get yelled at for doing so, so instead have a permalink to other post (was in there as Karl has posted in there).
Basically a justification for just removing Ankle Shots as a trait and replacing it with a toned down/altered Ricochet-lite that has 2 guaranteed bounces and always divides the current single target damage between 3 targets (even if there’s only one), given the objection doesn’t seem to be random targets, just RNG number of bounces based on other skills still in the game.
The trait would then be a case of letting people choose between having a weaker per target AoE pistol set for 3 targets that also lets D/P multi shadow step on 3 again (with reduced damage), multi headshot (again reduced damage) etc or to take Practiced Tolerance for increased single target pistol for burst damage, which is currently the no-brainer option anyway…..
It might however require Pistol 2 to be reworked for balance, but I don’t think many people are a fan of it as is.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/So-the-Pistol-wasn-t-buffed/first#post5548907
What in the world? Why should we get our damage reduced 66% vs single targets just so it can bounce? Make it deal 100% to first target and 50% on bounces. That makes it similar to old ricochet without rng. Compared to other class AoE abilities, it’s definitely not overpowered. Certainly not enough to warrant dealing 33% damage to each target and hitting like a wet noodle.
I don’t think they’d let us remove reveal and get stealth on dodge, so here’s a change to the flitting shadows suggested trait:
Dodging extends the duration of stealth by 2 seconds and reduces the duration of reveal by 2 seconds.
Pistol 2 should have a short evade like staff 3 to help with survivability and distancing if you get jumped (which is easy for people to do since we only have 900 range)
Hold on, I found out what the boot is for!
I just hope Karl says “Hey guys, we fixed that bug because we’re giving you 1200 range baseline! Enjoy.”
FYI the damage increases weren’t part of a re-work of pistols or anything (something I’ve discussed in the past). We realize it still needs some work to get it to where we want, but we wanted to get it closer to being to that point with these changes. We’ll be looking at pistols more in-depth in the future.
-Karl
Thanks for the response!
I can hear it now.
“Alright so we’ve got the initial drafts for the elite specialization icons in. You’ll see we gave Chronomancer a clock, pretty clever huh? Dragonhunter is an arrowhead, cause they get bows I guess. Berserker is a sword! On fire! Because fire things! We went with a swirly thing for Tempest because they spin around when they’re doing that lame overload thing… And there’s the others. What do you think guys?”
“What about Daredevil?”
“What about what?”
“Daredevil. The elite spec for thief?”
“Oh! Right! That thing… well… Thieves move about a bunch, how about a shoe? It shows how much they move around!”
“But other classes move around too…”
“We’ll slap a wing on it.”
“Perfect, push it.”
Haha. I also find it funny that Reaper is a hooded figure that would seem to actually match thief (similar to our forum icon).
They are in alphabetical order. Seriously?
Edit: I don’t mean to sound like I’m complaining exactly. The icon isn’t awful but I just don’t get it. It doesn’t convey evasiveness, martial arts, staff mastery, or being a fearless daredevil. It conveys being fast, which is not unique to daredevil (i.e. base thief is already fast).
(edited by Zodryn.4216)
I now realize they weren’t rushed when they barely had anything for thief in the patch preview stream. That really was all they had. :/
Piercing is better than nothing but can’t we just have Ricochet back? Just lower damage per bounce and make it always bounce.
Thief is still fun, but simple fixes that we need get ignored patch after patch. It’s like the Metroid Prime: Federation Force reveal every patch. That wasn’t at all what we asked for.
Piercing is horrible. Any height difference makes it worthless (shoot into the sky or ground instead of the next target). Ricochet was reliable and great for tagging.
Also, try fighting a burst mesmer, then post a 1 second combat log and I think you’ll find similar numbers.
No condi cleanse eh? You could have at least dodged part of the sneak attack, mitigating at least half of that damage since the venoms would be wasted without applying any condi stacks.
None of the changes today make anything more usable. Daredevil will help certain weapon sets, but not everyone will have HoT. What are vanilla thieves supposed to do?
D/D
Got nothing, it should have better evade on 3, torment on 4, and blind on CnD. Dagger training still sucks.
P/P
Even more mashing 3. Now with less range and still no method of survival.
S/D
Still in poor shape since we have poor dodge access.
S/P
…does that even exist anymore?
Acro is still dead, and 4s swiftness isn’t going to convince me to take it over any other traitline.
And how in the world do you fix Magnet and ignore Scorpion Wire?
Stealth attacks being unblockable would make sense, and be less over the top. How does an engi block a backstab from an unseen opponent by holding up a shield in front of him?
1) If he uses f2 in reaction to you stealthing, there is going to be at least a 2 second window during which you can simply walk out of range. If the pet in question is a bird, f2 cannot be used at all, because he can’t see you to target you.
2) Again, only if you stay next to the pet for at least 2 seconds and only if the pet is not a bird. Try playing ranger and see how long the delay is between hitting f2 and your pet actually using it. It’s an enormous delay.
3) This is the only scenario you listed that is at all realistic. However, given the times involved, you’re still more likely to be hit by the taunt after backstab lands unless the ranger is blocking (and if the ranger is blocking, you’d probably be hammered out of taunt range by counterattack anyway).
1) You have to sit in SR for 4 seconds, and the taunt radius takes up exactly the entire field if it’s in the middle. this means either get taunted and revealed, or walk out of SR and get revealed. I actually feel like this is the most realistic scenario as 3 is a totally random chance that you get taunted without it being intentional.
2) Fair enough. Though the ranger could cast it as you cast CnD and the taunt would hit almost immediately and would work with birds.
3) Also fair. Still happens on occasion though.
(edited by Zodryn.4216)
We don’t usually use pistol 4 daze to set up anything as it’s too short. It’s usually used to interrupt things like heals, high damage attacks with obvious tells etc. If we spam it we’ll run out of initiative fast and not be able to do much damage. If you get hit by basilisk venom, you may want to stun break that.
If the taunt hits you while you’re in stealth, you screwed up. Bad. You made a major mistake, and so you get punished for it, as with any major mistake. You would have had to stay within melee range of the pet when it (obviously) isn’t even following you.
Ok, so let’s consider some scenarios.
1) You’re low on hp while fighting a ranger and drop SR to try and reset. Naturally, his pet was right next to you before you stealthed, because it was attacking you. The ranger uses f2, and the taunt has 240 radius and can’t be dodged.
2) P/D, to ensure you land CnD, you use it on the rangers pet since you anticipate the ranger would evade/block it. This usually works well, but this time the ranger presses f2, and again, you are right next to the pet.
3) You jump in to +1 against a ranger to help your warrior friend. You approached in stealth and you are about to backstab the ranger, but the pet just used his f2 and since the pet was right next to the ranger (attacking the warrior in melee range), you get taunted.
It happens. Again, I agree it’s not that big of a deal compared to an engi who can reveal for 8s by flailing with a flamethrower, but it still doesn’t change the fact that taunt can work as a reveal. I never said it was op or that it even happens often, but it can happen and it’s something I have to watch for as many rangers run that trait.