Guys, we’re both classes that everybody loves to hate even when Guards and Eles are objectively stronger in every game mode. We gotta stick together against the unwashed “Nerf now!” hordes instead of fighting each other.
Generally I’d agree with you, though it’s hard to deny that Mesmer was overtuned with the spec update. If they give us thieves our evades back, buff meld with shadows, and improve our other weapon sets besides D/P, I will have no complaints.
Elite name: Nerf Bat
Weapon: Staff
Theme of spec: hitting people with your Nerf bat skills will diminish other classes ability to use core mechanics just like arena net has done to thief.
We need better weapon set definition (especially P/P), but I don’t like your recommended way of achieving it. What if I want to play condi D/D? Or zerk P/P? There are better ways to achieve balance than making it so cut and dry.
Shadow trap is definitely useful in PvP. Amazing amounts of might and mobility. I feel like that build still benefits more from D/P though if you need to chase or stealth for an approach. Sad reality of todays thief. :/
Hey all, so I’ve been testing a build lately, and I find it quite enjoyable. It started as a P/P vamp build, but it was a bit lacking, so I converted it into an almost meta build. For reference, I can down a zerk thief in one auto chain. No backstab, just autos.
Basically, you have less stealth and steal bonuses than the meta build, but a bunch of life steal, which adds to DPS pretty significantly besides the immob and reduced healing from the venoms. Those bonuses also get passed to anyone you choose to share with.
Sadly, it doesn’t help weapon diversity as D/P is still easily the best set we have. Still, it’s a mild change of pace, and I’ve always loved sharing.
Wait for the Dishonored system to come out. They should not only ding players who afk or disconnect, but also file false claims that put a burden on the reporting system.
Ooh, that sounds nice. Currently there’s no real way to retaliate unless you can report them back for verbal abuse or something depending on what they say.
I was playing some PvP testing an off meta build, and there was this Warrior who kept getting focused in hot join. He ended up doing a lot of running away. Problem was, I had basilisk and devourer venom, along with shadow shot and plenty of initiative. Well, because he couldn’t outrun me he decided I was using “speed hacks” and decided to report me. He also reported a necro for…I don’t even know what. Locust sig? I guess 25% movespeed is also speed hacking.
I’m not really worried, but really? What’s a thief to do in that situation? I said what skill I was using and even linked it, but naturally he wouldn’t have any of it.
I also play an Asuran thief, and I feel the same way. The problem is, no matter how terribly they nerf us or give our bread and butter to other classes, I can’t give up on my thief.
I’ve tried similar builds in the past. My only reasonable success was running some traps and devourer venom to keep people in the caltrops while I stacked more bleeds with db. Any one with common sense won’t stand in caltrops long enough for it to do more than tickle. I do like the idea of a low HP, high toughness and healing power build with SoM though. Just wish more of our options actually worked well.
Because of the delay with trapper runes, it doesn’t know you want to stop auto attacking. The only way around it is to turn off auto attacking (Ctrl right click the 1 skill) or drop your target. If you mash 1 for autos anyway, I recommend disabling the automatic skill use as you won’t really notice anything different besides not autoing when you don’t want to.
Try HiS for your heal if you need more stealth. On demand stealth, the timing works with trappers respite, and then you can take bountiful theft for boon rip and vigor that goes well with uncatchable.
Also, find some things you can whack with CnD for stealth in sPvP. Boxes, windows and walls in Khylo and energy platforms in skyhammer for example. Also, you have leeching venoms for a bit of sustain, and since you can’t burst like a power thief, it’s better to +1 and support more with condi, which makes sharing more valuable than SR.
Looks pretty good, but take Improv. Potent poison isn’t worth it and you can laugh maniacally when your steal recharges your venoms.
I’d grab venomous aura though, as you can then preload venoms with only a 2s downtime. Also, venoms are a bit lacking when used by yourself. I’d also consider deadly trapper along with needle trap util. That’s 10 stacks of might and vuln if both needle traps hit, besides the immob and poison. You may consider poison or general condi duration runes/sigils, but it’s up to you.
The AoE is caltrops, the tripwire immob is needle trap. Solution: use a stun/immob break and don’t stand in the caltrops. Also, if you have condi cleanse, he should be able to kill you with just a few bleeds and poison from those two skills.
Acro used to supplement D/D condi, P/P (no other form of mitigation), S/D, P/D if running caltrops on dodge. Now it is just good for mitigating cc, which we could previously condi cleanse in stealth for, withdraw, shadow step, IR etc. The fact that evades were cut in half impacts much more than S/D
I also run different runes, and my traits are a bit different. Still, it’s D/P burst or nothing. I’ve tried D/D, S/D and P/P since patch and while they’re all fun, they are just a bit behind the curve.
Keep in mind, 10s CD doesn’t mean you get it every ten seconds. It’s on heal, so every 15 seconds at best (nobody traits signet cooldown, and then why would you use SoM every time it’s off CD), which is 20% immob uptime IF they don’t dodge through it, which happens often. You also don’t get the might if they dodge.
Is it just me or is dueling as a thief mostly pointless? If they are squishy, you can burst them down in 2 seconds, but if they have any decent survivability, bursting becomes ineffective. We can’t really build bruiser either as we still die too fast. Basically, if I know my enemy is even a bit tanky, regardless of class, it’s not worth engaging by myself. I can only +1 and decap/cap. Unless I’m fighting another thief, in which case it’s usually easy prey.
It was 10s when the 23rd patch hit, then almost immediately changed to 30s with no warning or reason. It’s not like our traps are that good anyway, I think it was uncalled for.
Yeah, we can definitely do some amazing burst. I always run Shadow Trap in PVP, though I don’t combo it with steal to initiate. Sounds like an interesting idea. The main issue is that most classes will pop some kind of invuln, block, or otherwise amazing survival skill and heal through most damage following the initial burst. If I can’t down someone within one second, chances are the fight will last much longer than it should.
Thief will get Greatsword and can Backstab for 12k – 15k ish CONFIRMED!
Stealth skill – Huge Backstab: instantly kill your target. Becomes Huge Backsweep if you are shorter than your target, in which case cut off their legs, permanently removing their ability to move.
It’s not that we’re special, look at what we currently get for missing steal: a couple of boons. Is that really that unreasonable? Take that away and we have no swiftness access when roaming the world (nobody takes acro and it barely gives any swiftness anyway). Comparatively, it barely does anything while cleansing ire could save your life by removing large stacks of 3 different damaging condis by swinging at air. From a balance perspective, there is no reason to nerf steal by granting boons only if it hits.
It really doesn’t promote unskillful play, it promotes different uses for our class mechanic. If you needed that heal from mug and miss, you will die, regardless of whether you just got some swiftness out of it. But how often do I miss steal? Not that often. How often do I use it as a support for my teammates? Much more often. I can sacrifice the primary function of steal along with many secondary effects to buff my teammates on our way to an objective, gain a couple seconds of stealth etc. It’s more about using it in a different scenario entirely than about failing to hit someone. And you lose much more than half of it’s functionality if you choose to use it with no target.
Also, if you try steal something, you will get an adrenaline rush even if you totally fail. Even the anticipation causes that, it’s not “woohoo, swiping at midair is thrilling.” If you don’t actually steal from someone, you don’t get any items from them, no boon rip, poison, weakness, damage or healing. That makes total sense, but many of the other buffs logically make sense to have applied.
I view the steal skill as a multifaceted thing. There’s the teleport where you basically jump someone and take their stuff, which is all it does baseline, and if you miss it you don’t get their stuff. Then there’s the thief’s slightly neurotic quirks that gives them certain effects when they steal or think/plan to steal. Example: thrill of the crime. The thief gets swiftness might and fury because he gets a thrill when he steals, or when he even thinks about stealing, therefore it procs with no target.
In that regard it’s just like a warrior using a shout or a guard using a virtue, but it’s about our obsession with taking things from people. Preparing for it (hidden thief), getting an adrenaline boost when doing/thinking of it (thrill of the crime).
I will add this to the bug list. I recommend saving it for when you down the warrior in the meantime. They usually ignore the reflect and die in seconds. Of course it still sucks if you get ganked and need to dodge away…
That’s kind of the idea. You have to realize, Steal is an instant cast ability. That means if you do happen to miss, either the enemy got EXTREMELY lucky, or you made a fairly substantial mistake. Where as, say, for Warriors, Eviscerate has like a 300 lunge and if it misses you lose all of your adrenaline, you don’t cleanse conditions, you don’t get your 20% damage boost from the strength trait. That’s how it should be. That’s risk for reward. Being rewarded for a miss does the game no good and doesn’t push people to play better and watch for opportunities. The game needs to move more in that direction, not gain easier hand outs.
Again, not picking on thieves, it’s just relevant. All classes should be treated this way.
They still lunge though and maybe do some cleave if the main target blocked. Or take shattering as an example. If the Mesmers target dodges, it doesn’t affect him, but it’s AoE so maybe it’ll hit someone else. Furthermore, you can easily summon more clones and do a different shatter.
With your recommendation for steal if you miss you would do exactly nothing and get a 20s cooldown out of it. There are Mesmer skills that won’t even let you cast them without a target. If steal was to really do absolutely nothing without a target, it shouldn’t let you cast it without one.
If you ask me, none of them should. Skills should have to physically land to do what you’d expect, just like Cleansing ire, for example, if you ask me. This goes for anything, though. (Mesmer shatter blind, any others that proc regardless of hitting or not that are based on offensive abilities.)
On the other hand, it goes on full cooldown with no target, which would be extremely punishing if it did absolutely nothing and you use it just after that Mesmer stealths. This doesn’t affect other classes as much if they just miss one skill, but when you miss out on damage, heal, poison, weakness, boon rip, vigor, swiftness, might, fury, possible skill recharge etc. with the click of one button when you somehow lose target (stealth or other issues) that really sucks. I agree with OP, or if they decide to make it proc nothing, then it shouldn’t go on recharge, it should just say “no valid target.”
Updated with a reported SR bug in another topic, could use some clarification. Does it prevent you from restealthing even though the reveal debuff isn’t shown? And has it happened with anything other than SR?
Edit: Also categorized bugs and listed in order of importance within each category and changed some wording. Obviously some will be more or less important depending on your play style, but it should hopefully help readability.
Added all of the above. I will organize the list later with most prominent bugs that hurt our viability or make something OP consistently towards the top, and things that are minor or unlikely to occur towards the bottom.
- Shadow Shot second half can be cancel with Stow/Draw Weapons and esc allowing you to remain in stealth
P/D Shadow Strike casted with jump does not teleport you back.
S/D Infiltrator Strike casted with jump replaces shadow return ontop of you.
Those have always been that way. Shadow shot only has a strike on the dagger hit after teleporting, so if you cancel it with something (even a different attack, not just weapon stow) it naturally deals no damage, but still ports you and consumes initiative.
Edit for clarity: It isn’t a bug, if they wanted it changed they’d need to add a strike to the pistol shot. Hopefully they don’t since thief really doesn’t need less options at this point. The jumping tricks are arguably unintended, but again, the options are welcome. Neither are serious exploits like ele canceling dagger 1 for massive heals.
The jumping tricks also give less used weapon sets more options, and have been there since launch I believe, so I doubt they’ll be changed. Think of them as a feature. I’ll add the other bugs you mentioned though. Thanks!
Heart Seeker: while under the effects of quickness, the leap distance is significantly reduced (quickness may be affecting other classes leaps as well, but I haven’t checked)
Trappers Respite: when traited for trap cooldown reduction, the needle trap on heal displays 24s in the tool tip, but there is a second icd that stays at 30s
This post highlighted all the advantages jade wind has over bv but none of the advantages bv has over jade wind. If your gonna compare two abilities give the complete context please.
Basilisk venom has
1. Two chances to proc on enemies (less chance to be avoided)
2. Is no where near as telegraphed as jade winds
3. Can be proc from a multitude of ranges in a multitude of ways.
The overall utility of basilisk venom is far greater then jade winds hence why it is given a lot of disadvantages. Also on top of the fact that basilisk venom exist on a class that can 100-0 almost any squishy/low health target in that basilisk venom time window with mug from 1200 range.
Also the two abilities don’t even function or occupy the same game play space beyond they both stun(turn people to stone thematically). Jade winds is an aoe wombo combo ability with a large windup time similar to reaper’s chilled to the bone. Basilisk venom is single target focus and can function with no cast time if preset which is the advantage/disadvantage of venoms.
Honestly feels like people saw jade winds and went their ability turns ppl to stone wait ours does that du fuq.
True BV has some advantages, but the fact remains it’s a 1s single target stun and it’s an elite skill. How would you feel if mesmers moa elite turned them into a moa for 1 second, but had a 40s cooldown? It just doesn’t feel like an elite skill, it’d be fine as a normal utility.
I haven’t had that issue. If anyone can reproduce it I’ll add it to the list.
it happens. quite a bit, you use 6 initiative on sb #5 and the animation and cast time and all come through, the arrow lands, you dont get ported. (cant get it on video as shadow play doesnt work for me)
btw: please add any bug that gets listed down here to your original an first post, maybe make the names of the skills/traits that are bugged fat, maybe a dev will stumble over it… dem hopes
I have had that happen, but I know why. As the arrow travels if you move to a place where it would return a pathing error, it won’t port you. It does suck. I’ve been updating the op with after each comment, but I’ll bold each skill for ease of reading. Thanks for the suggestion.
I’m not the one arguing that they’ll replace guardian, and I don’t think they’ll replace thief, but if Anet makes them strong enough in each respective legend, they can emulate various classes and swap on the fly. They may not match a guard for durability, but if they can compete with a S/D thiefs dps by using Shiro and then come even a bit close to guardian sustain by swapping to Jalis, things will be pretty interesting.
Chilled to the bone! (Reaper) – stun 2 seconds, chill for 12 seconds, resistance 2 seconds
Jade Winds – stun 3 seconds
Jade Winds – Radius: 600, blockable, easy to evade
Basilisk Venom – The venom is still used if an attack is blocked, evaded, obstructed, negated by Blind, or if the target has Invulnerability or Defiance.
Plus Thief can use Basilisk Venom while in stealth and unload all its initiative on the enemy.
You forgot to mention that CttB has a 120 second cooldown. However, without the snide comments, you do have a point. BV does not cost initiative, and that alone IMO is the only advantage BV has over JW. Is that a big enough advantage? That I am not sure about. Would you want to have a more powerful BV at the cost of some initiative?
Also initiative burst with 2s of stun = insta kill on every class in the game. Nice job balancing.
Thief with stealth, initiative and a 2s stun is really OP. I think that even tank builds would have problems surviving.
You get a lesser stun because you already have too many toys.
Insta kill on every class? Really? First it’s usually 1s stun because it doesn’t stack, second it can be avoided easily (unless you don’t know how to evade), third even if it succeeds, you can stun break out of it, and fourth no class with decent health and defenses will get insta killed. So basically only other thieves will die, as everyone else has higher health and armor, blocks invuln etc.
Haha…just pray Anet doesn’t realize that 3s stun on 5 targets with no cooldown is insane. It forces the entire enemy team to either blow a defensive cooldown or dodge and can be used multiple times in a row (run with two revenants for max lol, perma team stun). Comparatively, BV is single target 1s stun on a 40s cooldown that’s blockable. Oh no, how will you survive that…/sarcasm
Or to walk out of it?
Jade Winds has a huge green telegraph and a long animation.
Plus you can’t spam it. It’s 50 energy, you can use it twice in a row, then once every 10 seconds. But if you do it you can’t do anything else. Not even use weaponskills except auto attack.
If it becomes op then they can simply add some cooldown, but I don’t think that’s the case.
Overall Revenant is a seriously underpowered class atm. Way inferior to Guardian, but also inferior to Thief.
Using a 3 second aoe stun twice in a row is powerful even if it uses all of your energy. With two coordinated revenants on your team the best case scenario will allow you to keep a whole team stunned while your party cleans up. It doesn’t matter if you can only auto or that you can’t spam it more than twice in a row, it is still very powerful. Note that I’m not asking for a nerf, but it is certainly stronger than many other cc skills as it stands.
Also, if you’re woried about the cast time, just have a mesmer or thief stealth you so you can pop it unseen.
They already got amazing buffs after the revenant weekend. It seems like they really want all aspects of the class to be viable. Comparatively, we’ve barely heard anything from the devs about thief since last month. Don’t laugh too soon.
