No counterplay? You know you have your own weapon skills and whatnot, right? Also, Hardened Gates?
Finally, if they’re beating down your door with weapon skills, you have some time to call in help or figure out a solution to your problem… it’s not that hard. If it’s that they outnumber you by a lot, well, that’s a pretty good reason for them to win the fight, isn’t it?
Hardened gates used to be complete immunity, it’s something I thing they should go back to. Seen too much PvD as a “last resort” to take something they already heavily out man the defenders on and with the amount of healing revs and eles do they’re immune essentially to all damage except 3-4 super ACs which are rapidly destroyed now they can’t be put out of LoS.
Xstein pretty much sums it up. If you’re better than the average thief you will still be able to dodge the steal+precast BS but you will have a harder time vs them. Try to duo queue with someone on TS who you can ask to help you out when you get a thief on you.
Well… if the point of elite spec is to get a different use of a class, i dont see a prob with not having lots of heals and or condi cleanses… This spec could be focused on dmg and toughness instead of support…. that way tempest will still be extremely useful.
Still, there is no point on hanging on things that are not even confirmed.
The point of an elite spec (ideally) is to change how a class plays, but not necessarily changing what the class is already capable of doing. Focusing in two attunements in order to specialize would be the former, whereas something like dragonhunters would be the latter. If people want a lot of cleanses, they can take water or stick to tempest. It’s not like there are no options, there are just trade-offs, which a lot of people can’t handle because they just want a straight upgrade (in which case, again, stick to tempest).
Not entirely, you’ve set foot in WvW right? You can’t move from one objective to another without getting hit by 5 or 6 conditions and that’s just the power builds. You get a necro in range of you and you might as well stop to die faster, makes little difference if power or condi either.
Ele outside of bunker (so that’s your fire DD and FA builds) has a lot of issues with condition builds currently, smart cleansing will help you survive and get away but you’re going to have to be exceptional to win. You say it’s a trade off but it is a false choice if one of your 2 attunements and trait lines has to be water otherwise you get shafted by conditions.
I just hope the new utilities have more selfish cleanses and sustain and damage in traits allowing for a power damage spec.
I know why it was used, but that doesn’t change anything. It is still a weapon that was already used 100% of the time on thieves. Dev time would have been better spent making SB5 on thieves not so mandatory for them somehow (preferably by adding some of that mobility to other weapon sets somehow). As it stands though, that was a straight up buff to every thief, since every single one will still be running SB all the time
I think their time would have been better spent removing shortbow 5 from the game entirely. Then figure out wtf they want shortbow to be, a condi or a power weapon and roll with that. Right now it’s some weird hybrid that doesn’t really do any of it well but makes up for it all with an insane gtfo button.
Well besides the thief stealth there is this.
I typically see 10-11k and they’re marauder, that guy must have been berserker. Still it’s a bad joke when it reduces you to less than 50% in one hit and ooops, there goes the panic strike while still dazed and with poison and weakness on you.
If I can hit the thief on my new build then they will go 100-0 but the trouble is hitting them and I can’t have the daze mantra otherwise I have no cleanse.
Inb4 thief comes and says you should put on some toughness if you don’t want to be one shot.
I have to admit with the change you do a really weird animation and a long channeled melee attack for something that is very low damage.
I can confirm that you do gain 8 might and so do all swordsman you have out, why they gain 8 might is beyond me but there you go. If it was AoE might to players this would be a much better PvE attack however it’s low damage and incredibly long cast make it worthless in any form of PvP or WvW as a melee attack. That’s without mentioning that it’s counter intuitive to have an attack that can be cast at 1200 range but have a component that is melee range.
Swords are meant to be fairly quick weapons but this makes it feel as clunky as sword felt before the change to riposte.
The question is, can this joke of “balance” get any worse ?
Increased the cool down of continuum split by 50% in all game modes.
So, to move the conversation into a productive area, what would you rather see it changed to?
Just giving might to the mesmer enough with maybe a little tweaking to the attack or would you rather it gave something else? Should it be scrapped and remade?
What productive area are you imagining my friend? These patch notes are proof the “balance devs” (seriusly lol) don’t know how their GAME WORKS! Maybe lets start by teaching them the basic mechanics of every class and THEN offer suggestions of changes? At least this way we will have a bit more faith they will actually understand why we give them suggestions.
Well kitten talking the devs (who are likely new given the number of people that have left) isn’t going to accomplish anything. Highlighting an issue and making suggestions as to what you would like to see changed helps and they do read these forums every now and then for feedback. Especially after balance patches.
I agree it needed to be brought in line but then so did all the other +% food, including condition duration. Leaving out condition duration food was a bad idea and they really dropped the ball on that one.
Not sure if having lower damage across the board in raids is a bad thing, it’s already got a decent amount of wiggle room to not be too challenging to a decent group.
Most eles weren’t over 90% HP most of the time anyway, so I don’t think it’s that much of a nerf.
I dunno I manage to keep scholar up 85% of the time on average usually a bit higher. As for the topic, good ele’s (read: The ones that stay on ele because it’s actually their main and they actually play well) will still out perform most pugs it’s just it will likely be a lot easier to tell a good ele from a bad one.
The SWS nerf needed to have a nerf to condition builds, changing condition food to expertise as others have said on reddit and Nike in one of his vids would probably have been a good idea. To refund the DPS lost to raid groups they could re-instate might being 35 power and condition damage. No extra calculations, food is all brought in line and effective power should stay similar in PvE.
I feel the damage on the skills pretty much is there to prevent you casting it from stealth. In fact there’s been a lot of stealth gank hate recently and in this patch with tethering effectively keeping enemies revealed.
The new attack probably needs an increase in vulnerability duration but now if you avoid the zerker you will probably be hit by the attack or vice versa at least from what I saw this evening.
Anyone know if it has a target limit on the attack? I was seeing loads of numbers when I cast it into a zerg last night and I know some of it was the zerker but makes me wonder if they forgot a target limit.
What I think is this is putting mesmer in a better position to move damage off phantasms and instead onto the attacks themselves. In this regard the boomerang attack I do like and would like if it did more damage at the cost of zerker doing less or non.
As far as the other phantasms are concerned I’ll pay closer attention and play with them on a golem or something where I can actually see what’s going on.
The nerf to Illusionary Reversion wasn’t needed. They could have just removed the second phantasm from Echo of Memory and then most of the “clone spam” would be immediately addressed without the need to drag other weapon sets through the gutter. This would also solve the issue with Chronophantasma as you would no longer have a single phantasm skill producing four illusions.
I agree, they could have reduced the shield recharge to be on par with other classes and removed the 2nd block to bring it in line while increasing the block duration.
For WvW.
I’m experimenting with Danger Time and Lost Time in combination with the change to Master of Fragmentation giving Mind Wrack a 25% crit chance. A lot of the time I’m using MW (I don’t usually stealth burst as I find it cheesy) on a slowed target even without shield phantasm and can keep very high uptime of it so I end up with +55% crit chance on them for guaranteed crits. The mirror blade crits most of the time too and with dom I can take a massive chunk off even heavy armour targets.
I combine it with torch and the pledge, no PU but I still get a decent low cool down on stealth skills, the important damage skills on GS and with a little extra condi cleanse. At the moment I’m very likely massively over capped on crits so will be swapping some pieces out possibly for valk or cavalier and obviously I’m running mantra of resolve as the other condi clear utilities aren’t up to snuff and I don’t like WoE if you have to heal in stealth.
On a side note I’ve found that the new iZerker animation looks weird and feels more clunky but the sword throw attack means the enemy will get hit by either the sword or the zerker a lot of the time. Synergises well with the dom line adding extra vuln, just a shame you can no longer cast phantasms from stealth anymore.
The biggest change for me is the removal of pulsing stab for high stacks instead, I can rip it and actually CC warriors, guards, rangers and necros in shroud knowing full well if I shatter on them they will likely be open to CC.
(edited by apharma.3741)
So, to move the conversation into a productive area, what would you rather see it changed to?
Just giving might to the mesmer enough with maybe a little tweaking to the attack or would you rather it gave something else? Should it be scrapped and remade?
Basically mesmer got dumped on in WvW roaming.
5 of anything even mesmers can pretty much force you to leave the area if they all focus you, even with pathetic auto attacks like the mesmer.
I’ll be honest and say I’ve not seen or run into it but if you trully can be invulnerable 100% of the time for 20s or more then it does need changing. Certainly that video shows they can essentially stomp and CC people with absolutely no counter untill they mess up the rotation and just like ghost thief being essentially being permanently while attacking this is just as bad.
You shouldn’t defend mechanics like this, yes it requires a lot of excellent co-ordination and timing to do but that shouldn’t be an excuse to let it fly and be invulnerable for minutes. It’s baffling how anyone can say ghost thief was a problem but this won’t become a problem when more people start using it.
It is not like that as far as I have been told and the guy who told me had played and told me about it approximately a year ago. You will have 2 elements only. Water line without water attunement is significantly weaker as the minors mostly don’t work and your choices on majors is severely limited with 1 in each tier being completely unusable without water attunement. This isn’t an issue on core or tempest as we don’t lose water but we will with the new elite spec.
FashionMage, sure burning/cleansing fire and magnetic wave are decent condition clears but I wouldn’t say ether renewal is a lot of the time unless ranged, far too interruptable. Also as above you will lose 2 elements, earth is a good pick especially if running sword/focus for the invuln and condi clear so may be there. Diamond skin is very hit and miss atm, tbh I rarely notice if I have it unless I’m running super bunky which you are likely not running if the elite spec is still a damage spec.
I guess we just have to wait and see but I still have some major concerns especially when you look at current damage specs and how much sustain/cleanses they have too.
Water line is the one line that realty dose not need to be in water to be that effective. Just having aura share or cantrips is enofe to run water line not having to be in the atument. Earth is the more need to be in earth to get the full effect same with fire to a point. Air and water are the lines that work well with other atuments.
If you look at the 3 minor traits, 2 of them require water attunement to be used and both contribute significantly to an eles sustain.
Let’s look at major traits.
Adept has 1 that requires water and 2 that don’t require water, ones synergizes well with a later trait the other stop drop and roll the ICD makes it arguably a bad trait that you shouldn’t pick it at all.
Master has 2 traits that require water to get the full use out of and the ever useful cantrip trait. Yes you can still get the scholar buff from aquamancer’s training but that isn’t a good reason to ever take it in WvW/PvP.
Grandmaster has 1 that requires water and 2 that have varying usefulness depending on the elite spec. Powerful auras isn’t amazing unless you really trick out auras to give boons and healing in tempest, given that tempest was an aura line it is very likely we will see less aura play in the new specialisation. Cleansing water is only useful without water attunement if you trait cantrip, get the only useful adept trait and possibly if you have another source of regen. Without water attunement the entire trait line becomes much less useful and if you don’t run 2 cantrips the cleansing power and especially the self sustain will be very poor.
Go through the rest of the trait lines, the only one that has anywhere near this level of tying into a specific attunement outside it’s minors is earth which has a pretty poor choice at master level. Every other trait line has 2 choices at each level that work irrespective of attunement taken.
This is what has me worried, that as it is now people will feel forced to take water line for cleanses and sustain and thus be forced to always run water attunement to get good benefits in the new elite spec.
- Increase the CD on Headbutt by 5-10s (start with 5s)
- Decrease the power scaling on Headbutt (from 3x to 2x)
- Decrease the range of Arc Divider (from 450 to 150-180)
- Count primal bursts as 1 bar of adren rather than 3
I think Arc Divider range reduction to 150-180 is excessive drop. If you are also considering other nerfs i think 240 is a good start.
Also not sure i agree with the Primal burst counting as 1 bar. I mean do we really want to make condition cleansing even harder than it is right now with all the condi cancer in wvw? Maybe make it count as 1 bar for Adrenal Health purposes?
I’d rather they made Adrenal Health last 10 sec instead of 15sec, This combined with Arc Divider range nerf would make landing the Burst even harder and more important and will punish you for missing it. Right now with 15s you can miss your burst several times and still keep 100% uptime.
I agree with Choppy tbh, though I’d start off with making primal bursts count as being 2 bars instead of 1, as you say it would make warrior incredibly weak vs condi otherwise.
I don’t agree with nerfing the duration of adrenal healing as it hurts core warrior which adrenal healing is much more balanced on as well as possibly making it worthless on new specialisations. When a specialisation is what’s too strong with something you should reduce the specialisation not reduce the core function (unless multiple specialisations are an issue) as we rapidly end up at a balance point where traits and utilities are garbage except with 1 build.
1vs1 a skilled thief will always win
uhhh only if you count running away a win. In duels, thieves are marginal at best.
thieves are terrible. They STILL get rekt by bearbow power rangers if there is equal player skill. And bearbow power ranger has been around since launch, and it STILL works against thieves… just a testament as to how little has improved for the thief
Those are some pretty terrible thieves.
Not really. power Bearbow vs thief has always been “first to hit”. Ranger has zero defense, but brutal DPS. Thief has better defense, but terrible HP pool… so its litterally like a PvE matchup. Brutal damage vs low sustain.
And just like with a PvE boss, if you dont take it out before it manages to land a hit, you’re in big trouble.The issue with ranger is that unlike PvE, its hard to just “run away” or hide from the DPS, as the pet will keep harassing you and keep you in combat, wether you want it or not.
Whenever i try play as power ranger, the characters i fear the least is necros/reapers and thieves. Mesmers used to be ezmode too, but they have gotten some good adjustments over the past year or so. Warriors are still a wildcard, often ezmode, but sometimes they can be hard to deal with.As normal, guardian is a PITA due to their constant heal, block and protection spam. Other rangers aren’t that hard. tempest can be a pain too, due to blocks and bursts.
If you still think rangers, even bearbows, are weak, you are wrong. They are kittenedly strong for a build that has been around since launch. Recently i have been testing this setup
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vNAQNBjYDVkQF4axyeg5E8OeJvlbXAIBA/Wzr/VA-TlCBQBS4CAwhjAAAeAAKU9H9pZoRKBziyPDpDoI7PshDCQAAEAH9oH9oH9otzduzduzdWIgRLAAIts fun. Not productive, but fun….
I don’t think you can ignore bearbows especially marauder/zerk mix as those longbows hurt but generally the bear isn’t a high threat pet and it’s utility is kind of meh. The reason I said they must have been bad thieves is that they can interrupt your skills fairly easily and so long as they close the gap on you when you’re in bow they will bring you down pretty fast. Though protective ward will need to be cleansed they can effectively take off 50%-75% of your health in the first attack, your heal is on a 1s cast which is easy to predict and interrupt, a quick shadowstep and you’re down after that.
Yes strength of the pack can give stab but still 1s cast, they either interrupt the heal or the elite, end result is the same.
It’s more that thief can essentially wear you down without druid unless you are significantly better than the thief, it’s the same reason I say only bad thieves lose to FA eles. The thief shouldn’t lose as they have all the tools to win and short of being hit by a fairly well telegraphed burst they haven’t too much to worry about. Druid is a different story though as they have a lot more sustain.
If you haven’t played the newest living story go do that then click spoiler.
So I was playing the story with my elementalist and suddenly Balthazar appears and as I fight off his waves of minions I attunement to fire and tell them all to “feel the fires of Balthazar”. Little inappropriate maybe?
Next up is time to fight Balthazar or rather his dogs….
….the same dogs I can summon with my racial elite after telling his dogs to “feel the fires of Balthazar” again.
Thankfully I didn’t ask Balthazar for his help when summoning the dogs, would have got a bit weirder.
So any chance there’s going to be a change to some of these lines while you have the voice actors/actresses in for recording the XPac?
Top Priority: Actually change the meta.
Last patch did pretty much nothing, that was 6 months ago, no sign of a patch and we got 6 months probably till next XPac. Who’s guessing we may have this meta till then?
(edited by apharma.3741)
Basically he hit you with a mirror blade mind wrack combo and you did nothing to prevent it. Mind you it could have come from stealth and there’s little you can do if he literally ran out of the portal at SM in stealth as you ran past. Possibly using mirror images to give full clone number and I would say dueling for fury as every single clone crit so almost certainly used dueling for fury.
You know it’s not the shameless streamer above because like all Americans he has to announce to the world he’s going to burst you by summoning iZerker from stealth before immediately mirror blading. This isn’t 2014 , this shouldn’t work on anything that isn’t a potato, especially at the ranges he does it at.
1vs1 a skilled thief will always win
uhhh only if you count running away a win. In duels, thieves are marginal at best.
thieves are terrible. They STILL get rekt by bearbow power rangers if there is equal player skill. And bearbow power ranger has been around since launch, and it STILL works against thieves… just a testament as to how little has improved for the thief
Those are some pretty terrible thieves.
I’d be okay with this if it wasn’t for the Revenant part. We’ve already go that. Why lose the other two elements? That’s disappointing.
Because trade-offs are a good thing?
Some ppl just want pure power creep or p2w like tempest give use in hot.
Core ele and tempest need to stay viable compared to the next elite spec. or the next elite spec. will become the only real chose to play in gw2.
Yeah I also believe in trade offs and think it’s fine. One thing I am concerned about is condi cleanse and health regeneration as it is so closely tied to water attunement/water trait line. In this regard I can understand a lot of reluctance in losing access to half your elements but I guess we cross that bridge when we get to it.
Well earth has some clears as well as fire so water not the end all be all for condil clear for ele.
What we are talking about is being two atuments at the same time so you do not lose the lines (most of the lines for ele / utility where the healing and clears comes from not the weapons or even being in that atument) you just get different effects and you lost 2 swaps. Think of it like taking 4 swaps into 2 but the 2 are (i guess stronger).
Its just if they make the fusion to powerful there going to be a problem with core ele for sure and tempest may fall behind too. This was a problem with HoT and more then likely will be with this next expansion.
You’re not thinking it through too much, yes the earth line has good removal via diamond skin mostly and some reduction in geomancer’s training. However the majority of the condition clearing and healing is tied to the water trait line, in particular attuning to water whether as a direct effect or for getting regen/water skills/evasive arcana.
The way the elite spec looks to work is you pick 2 attunements in a similar fashion to how revs pick legends and you swap between them. What’s going on with the utilities in this revision is anybodies guess but I had heard it was a case of say you pick fire and earth then your weapon skills will be fire when in fire attunement but your utilities are enhanced in some way by earth attunement.
However as I mentioned earlier the plans for ele originally were incredibly complex to the point I laughed at the guy and said it would be changed a lot. It has likely been revised significantly since then and could still be different from the leak we saw at the end of it all.
To clarify I’m worried as it may make water almost mandatory in attunement pick as any other combination of attunements outside of PvE will not have much or any cleanses or sustain at all. I’m not about to say it will suck but I am worried.
Even you where talking about atuments not lines water atument on ele realty dose not have that much clear build in to there weapons most of ele clear is coming from there line and utility. Water line being super useful is not going away as long as condi is the meta.
I think the though is your still going to be all 4 atuments its just the 4 will become 2. So water/fire will be one atument and air/ earth would be the other on these lines. We do not know how that would effect the trait lines.
It is not like that as far as I have been told and the guy who told me had played and told me about it approximately a year ago. You will have 2 elements only. Water line without water attunement is significantly weaker as the minors mostly don’t work and your choices on majors is severely limited with 1 in each tier being completely unusable without water attunement. This isn’t an issue on core or tempest as we don’t lose water but we will with the new elite spec.
FashionMage, sure burning/cleansing fire and magnetic wave are decent condition clears but I wouldn’t say ether renewal is a lot of the time unless ranged, far too interruptable. Also as above you will lose 2 elements, earth is a good pick especially if running sword/focus for the invuln and condi clear so may be there. Diamond skin is very hit and miss atm, tbh I rarely notice if I have it unless I’m running super bunky which you are likely not running if the elite spec is still a damage spec.
I guess we just have to wait and see but I still have some major concerns especially when you look at current damage specs and how much sustain/cleanses they have too.
Still here after 6 months…
And the other 12 year old in this story posted the tale on the forums.
At least provide cream of you’re gonna burn someone like this, enjoy the upvote.
If we are looking at the entire game mode from bottom to top it’s hands down Guardian/Dragon Hunter. As someone accurately said they’re a force multiplier for themselves in zergs and form the backbones and entire basis of large scale combat.
Roaming they aren’t too shabby either, yes other builds are better but with a rune that gives 25% movement speed and sword they can do a decent amount of kiting vs their counters. The only classes that have teleports to match JI and symbol of blades in kiting are thief, mesmer and rev, 2 of which the DH has a favourable fight against.
Honourable mention to warrior though as it’s better in smaller scale but not quite as good in large scale as guards.
Who’s Zinn?
What’s a MOX?
I’d be okay with this if it wasn’t for the Revenant part. We’ve already go that. Why lose the other two elements? That’s disappointing.
Because trade-offs are a good thing?
Some ppl just want pure power creep or p2w like tempest give use in hot.
Core ele and tempest need to stay viable compared to the next elite spec. or the next elite spec. will become the only real chose to play in gw2.
Yeah I also believe in trade offs and think it’s fine. One thing I am concerned about is condi cleanse and health regeneration as it is so closely tied to water attunement/water trait line. In this regard I can understand a lot of reluctance in losing access to half your elements but I guess we cross that bridge when we get to it.
Well earth has some clears as well as fire so water not the end all be all for condil clear for ele.
What we are talking about is being two atuments at the same time so you do not lose the lines (most of the lines for ele / utility where the healing and clears comes from not the weapons or even being in that atument) you just get different effects and you lost 2 swaps. Think of it like taking 4 swaps into 2 but the 2 are (i guess stronger).
Its just if they make the fusion to powerful there going to be a problem with core ele for sure and tempest may fall behind too. This was a problem with HoT and more then likely will be with this next expansion.
You’re not thinking it through too much, yes the earth line has good removal via diamond skin mostly and some reduction in geomancer’s training. However the majority of the condition clearing and healing is tied to the water trait line, in particular attuning to water whether as a direct effect or for getting regen/water skills/evasive arcana.
The way the elite spec looks to work is you pick 2 attunements in a similar fashion to how revs pick legends and you swap between them. What’s going on with the utilities in this revision is anybodies guess but I had heard it was a case of say you pick fire and earth then your weapon skills will be fire when in fire attunement but your utilities are enhanced in some way by earth attunement.
However as I mentioned earlier the plans for ele originally were incredibly complex to the point I laughed at the guy and said it would be changed a lot. It has likely been revised significantly since then and could still be different from the leak we saw at the end of it all.
To clarify I’m worried as it may make water almost mandatory in attunement pick as any other combination of attunements outside of PvE will not have much or any cleanses or sustain at all. I’m not about to say it will suck but I am worried.
(edited by apharma.3741)
We get more condi.
@op
l2p
Savage!
Edit: Thrag has good advice, I think you should listen to him as well as the excellent necro above.
For solo roaming I’d list it as follows:
DP Thief/Daredevil: So long as you don’t over commit the only thing that should kill you is another thief or being 100-0 from stealth by something like an all in power shatter mesmer.
Condi core mesmer: Has lots of stealth, cleanses, good protection uptime, tons of kiting potential and applies anti combat conditions. The weakness is you aren’t very mobile and if you get revealed at the wrong time you may very well be a goner.
Wanderer/commander Druid: Can be tanky, very resilient to conditions, direct damage and can kite the apocalypse if played well. Not as bursty as other options and can get boring but it’s a very good all round roamer and if you kite well you should always get away except vs thief as you get 3s stealth+superspeed. A little more useful in team fights than the above if your solo exploits suddenly escalate.
Marauder/wanderer mix Scrapper: With durability runes and muscles gnashblade you’re very tanky with high boon uptime and if running elixir S and stealth gyro (which you should because they’re great) you have all the stealth needed to escape most situations. They are less mobile than the above but a lot more useful when a solo fight becomes a team fight and have excellent abilities that scale much better when more people get involved. You also have lots of options to adjust for a situation, if you can see a bunch known for high conditions you can run elixir C or purge gyro using stealth in between recharge to avoid conditions.
Honestly though I would say I enjoy scrapper more than the others as I don’t really enjoy the play style or in the case of thief I don’t like being the apex predator that is so completely better at getting away and chasing. SpellOfIniquity pretty accurately described all the classes but if you ever solve your issue of condition clearing with rev (condition removal sigils) then they could be a good roamer too as they only lack stealth.
I was just rely pointing out that everything that the guy is saying thieves don’t have they actually have plenty of with the exception of boons. It’s kinda like the thieves that champion the class and say it has no passives but conveniently forget about acro, panic strikes and a fair number of other very passive traits.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stun_break
Thieves have 2. Shadow return doesn’t really constitute a third, considering the likelyhood of a thief not-using it AND getting stunned again within the 10 seconds makes this 2nd half of the skill irrelevant to our conversation.The builds that people incessantly whine about mostly do not incorporate Acro. You conveniently forgot that these “thief champions” talk about passive defenses, not offenses, so…lose the panic strikes. Please elaborate on these “fair number of other very passive traits” – please keep in mind that the imaginary defender of your pre-rebuttle would 100% be specifying passive defenses.
Yes but bandits defence is on such a low cool down that it makes it much stronger than most classes stunbreaks especially when traited. You don’t need 3 stun breaks (especially if on 30-40s) if you have one on a 12s CD which also blocks, shadowstep is just an exceptionally good skill no thief would be without, however it is still a stunbreak and so you can’t simply discount it because the use of its 2nd break likely won’t be used.
Actually these champions of the class say no passives, they do not distinguish between offensive, defensive or build and all types are bad for the game in large amounts. Heck most thieves don’t even realise how the minors in DA force cleanses out if the opponent wants to counter attack or heal as the minors make sure sure the target is poisoned and weakened, the weakness being a passive trait for when you inflict poison.
As for not taking acro, that’s the player choice but we saw what it could do with daredevil, there’s plenty of videos around of troll daredevils. That DD condi daredevil, the vault spam with a 250ms window to interrupt all used acro making it as resilient as other classes that took thier equivalent trait line. The point is thief has just as many of these passive defences and some passive offences as every other class with the former in acro and most of the latter in DA and trickery.
You’re really, really, reeeeeeeaaaaally stretching for validation to your incredibly generalized claims. As for these minor passives you’re trying real hard to press for – you might as well incorporate every profession into your argument, because by your logic, “10% greatsword damage and shorter cooldowns forces people to press their heal sooner” falls into the same realm of logic as “forcing people to cleanse due to DA poison trait”…
I’ll reiterate, “The builds that people incessantly whine about mostly do not incorporate Acro.” At first you didn’t seem the type of person who thinks Thieves can trait 4 lines at once, but…its sounding more and more like that’s your mindset. :\
Still doesn’t change that acro has tons of passive defences, pretty much the same as most classes and yet you hear thieves complaining so much about passives. I also didn’t say anything or imply that thieves pack all of this into one super build, I was only pointing out that thief has a similar number of passives as every other class.
I notice you jump on one sentence and make your entire post about it instead of all the rest, you made a claim that thieves have less stun breaks, boons and condition clears. The reality is they have the absolute best control condition clearing in the game atm and some exceptional stunbreaks, the change to SoA means they aren’t extraordinarily weak vs condi. I agreed they don’t have access to a wide variety of boons (obviously we don’t count consume plasma) but I also pointed out most classes except maybe war and necro will be 2 hit in equal gear.
Anyway let’s move the topic back on track. What do you find are broken mechanics in WvW roaming? I think good contenders are boon spam and how much sustain some specs have without investing in healing power.
Just to remind everyone the three dodges is part of the daredevil line, they can regen a lot of endurance with acro but they don’t get the special dodges or extra one and cannot use daredevil with the new line.
I would think the new style will enhance a more ranged style of combat maybe enhancing a one shot or set up for a kill style. This could benefit a number of weapon sets where you take advantage of situations and set ups.
I was just rely pointing out that everything that the guy is saying thieves don’t have they actually have plenty of with the exception of boons. It’s kinda like the thieves that champion the class and say it has no passives but conveniently forget about acro, panic strikes and a fair number of other very passive traits.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stun_break
Thieves have 2. Shadow return doesn’t really constitute a third, considering the likelyhood of a thief not-using it AND getting stunned again within the 10 seconds makes this 2nd half of the skill irrelevant to our conversation.The builds that people incessantly whine about mostly do not incorporate Acro. You conveniently forgot that these “thief champions” talk about passive defenses, not offenses, so…lose the panic strikes. Please elaborate on these “fair number of other very passive traits” – please keep in mind that the imaginary defender of your pre-rebuttle would 100% be specifying passive defenses.
Yes but bandits defence is on such a low cool down that it makes it much stronger than most classes stunbreaks especially when traited. You don’t need 3 stun breaks (especially if on 30-40s) if you have one on a 12s CD which also blocks, shadowstep is just an exceptionally good skill no thief would be without, however it is still a stunbreak and so you can’t simply discount it because the use of its 2nd break likely won’t be used.
Actually these champions of the class say no passives, they do not distinguish between offensive, defensive or build and all types are bad for the game in large amounts. Heck most thieves don’t even realise how the minors in DA force cleanses out if the opponent wants to counter attack or heal as the minors make sure sure the target is poisoned and weakened, the weakness being a passive trait for when you inflict poison.
As for not taking acro, that’s the player choice but we saw what it could do with daredevil, there’s plenty of videos around of troll daredevils. That DD condi daredevil, the vault spam with a 250ms window to interrupt all used acro making it as resilient as other classes that took thier equivalent trait line. The point is thief has just as many of these passive defences and some passive offences as every other class with the former in acro and most of the latter in DA and trickery.
I suspect if that is the case we will see thief hunters and everyone will deliberately bleed out, seige and corpse jump every thief they see….
….so not too much different now for some I guess
I’d be okay with this if it wasn’t for the Revenant part. We’ve already go that. Why lose the other two elements? That’s disappointing.
Because trade-offs are a good thing?
Some ppl just want pure power creep or p2w like tempest give use in hot.
Core ele and tempest need to stay viable compared to the next elite spec. or the next elite spec. will become the only real chose to play in gw2.
Yeah I also believe in trade offs and think it’s fine. One thing I am concerned about is condi cleanse and health regeneration as it is so closely tied to water attunement/water trait line. In this regard I can understand a lot of reluctance in losing access to half your elements but I guess we cross that bridge when we get to it.
Transfer to EU, judging by the forums NA is populated mostly by the age group you wish to avoid. Not saying EU doesn’t have it’s childish players but on the whole you don’t run into it much…Except JS and BB, those guys are very salty kids.
If that was true then you would not have wardrobes because at a point you simply look like every one because ppl can save there skins.
Its a game get over your self your not doing any thing to make your self better by playing it your playing it for fun. If you want to do something of real skill you need to do it out side of a mmorpg. Achievement is time + item in an mmorpg and nothing more. That why ppl play more pvp aimed games and why things like wvw and spvp are a great deal more skill base then pve ever will be because its not about the items or even the skins its about beating a human with a real brain not an ai with what could be said to be dumber then a rock.
If any thing legendary armor should be giving to every one as well as a wepon of every type because that the type of game GW2 is an active combat mmorpg where the ability to time and dodge is more important then gear score and level. Where every one should be given the same level of gear from the start so you don’t have ppl who are only relaying on there gear to win them fights (and they do as things stand).
Locking off legendary armor effect (not skins) is saying that only some ppl can be stronger then others though gear and gear alone not skill.
Look other rpg games vs ai ppl tend to hate the end games because they become to easy in that as you progress though the game you become stronger but that means the game becomes easier. So if your skillful and you get the best items your skillfulness means nothing because your gear and level takes over for the end fight. The effects of legendary armor have and have nots is a big differences for wvw and pve due to fexabitly to changes up after a fight for the next. The person with legendary armor dose not need to change up there game play all that much they just need to swap there gear out with a different combo. The player with out legendary armor needs to “get good” and must play with what they have as a set and gear level.
Simply put by getting legendary armor you do not need to be as skillful as the player with out and in a way it becomes a handicap. In a way legendary skins are more showing that “yes i got this but i need this to play this game and i cant play with out it.”
Salty much?
You imply I haven’t gone out and achieved something irl, I have, I have a master’s, a decent job that lets me work the hours I want, when I want and pays significantly better than average so I’m not really left wanting for anything. Just because I also like to achieve and earn things in my down time doesn’t make it not fun nor does it make it wrong. I also had to put together a raid group, lead them and teach them about mechanics, I got some help but that journey from WvW players that don’t care about PvE rotations to full clears is an accomplishment.
Like I say there’s no way to link skill to accomplishment in WvW as what is earnable by that skillful roamer is much more easily farmed by a blob pressing 1. Just because you think something should be rewarded it doesn’t mean it can be rewarded, this is the fundamental difference between WvW and PvE.
Suppose they wanted to allow you to earn legendary armour in WvW.
Do they put it behind reward tracks? Then it’s just a test of time. Play WvW long enough, get legendary armour.
Do they make it require badges of honour? Then it will go those with the most kills – those that blob up and press 1. Run with the zerg, get legendary armour.
Do they tie it to server victory? PPT hard enough / stack server coverage well enough – get legendary armour?
I can see arguments for all of these options, or some combination of them, but none of them are very appealing. They reward the worst parts of WvW and are not skill-based.
what?
does pve raid involve any skill ?
OkYes. A bad group is going to struggle, a lot. Skill definitely shows; not everyone can tank, heal, or DPS as effectively as others.
WvW progress can be made by blobbing and pressing 1. You won’t make any progress in raids if you did that.
Why should some ppl not get legendary armor though i still do not get your basic argument. Why should any thing be locked behind any wall other then time when we are playing a “GAME” for fun and not for work.
In wvw you show off your skill by playing with skill there no skin or banana sticker on your chest to say your better then others. This is a game and asking ppl to have skill to get items is silly.
As a reward for doing something ANet considers worthy of the skill required to get it. Look at it the other way, if your use of skill is not rewarded then what is the point in playing? Sure I can brag and say I’ve killed every boss, defeated every challenge the game has to offer but without something linked to it then it has a lot less value and less point to keep going.
ANet chose legendary armour for raids, this happened 2 years ago, I think you have all had time to come to terms with that.
I know someone is just itching for that “but roaming requires much skill” remark. Yes to be successful it does however there is no way you could implement any system for WvW that would reward that skillful play without massively rewarding karma training and blobbing. You know, the guards that literally run around pressing 1 and will even run up to downed enemies and just keep pressing 1 because they’re kittening morons who don’t even know how to stomp.
For the general section here’s some advise
When a thief backs off, run in the opposite direction so they have to expend initiative or cool downs to re-engage. If you have a non damaging condition on you make sure to cleanse it as it can stop you getting ooc but the thief can get ooc.
@Orpheal, in my experience thief players are usually the ones that do that kind of stuff like jumping on corpses, spamming laugh emote and throwing seige. Not all thieves do but it’s more common with them and anyone else running cheesy low risk builds.
Check out Terrisimo’s stream, she is one incredibly salty thief especially when running a stealth camping build or one shot and run build. If you see the YouTube video they all cut out the saltiness to make out she isn’t but the stream shows it very well.
Easy answer:
Thief in general. Best mobility in the game (with stun break), condition cleanse, self buffs, high damage and permanent access to stealth. In pvp only half as powerful because the stats are capped. Needs to happen in wvw too.Doesn’t every other profession have (more) stun breaks, condi cleanse, (more) self boons, but can also survive being hit by 2 skills?
The answer is yes, please pick something actually broken.
Daredevil has I believe the 2nd lowest cool down stun break in the game (not counting revs due to energy/traiting) and certainly one of the lowest cool down blocks in the game. It also generally has the lowest cool down on their heals while also being nearly completely immune to chill, cripple and immobilise which are massive problems for other classes. They also enjoy some pretty decent condition cleansing since SoA was buffed to 3 conditions but the endurance regen wasn’t nerfed like it was in PvP.
There’s also very few classes that can survive 2 hits if they run zerk and obviously didn’t use any skills, that’s without mentioning most thieves use enough marauder to hit 16k health which most classes try to get for roaming. I think only warriors can really survive 2 hits from anything that would down a thief. Certainly everything that would down a thief in 2 hits would down an equally geared ele, guard, mesmer, ranger, engy and rev assuming no passive trait proc’d, which is possible if you go from above the health threshold to downed.
I agree though, they should pick things that are actually broken like stealth, like the excessive mobility some classes have and the excessive regen some classes have.
It’s hard to even 2 hit a thief there’s days because of marurder gear as a thief unless you invest in utility skills you can pre cast from steal. Engies laugh at a thief open spike, so do druids, dh, ele too depending on build… If they are fresh air bust then yeah it will sting them a lot and a power shatter mesmer can suffer too. The fact is, every build I have come across if they are built for roaming can easily counter Presure a thief if they are compitent enough and have experienced playing s thief. But s lot of people don’t and instead rant on the forums about them. Been playing scrapper and tempest for a good month or so and I have yet to find a thief where they total shut me down, yeah I lost a few because I am Un experienced on the newer class’s but I sure wasn’t helpless at all.
I was just rely pointing out that everything that the guy is saying thieves don’t have they actually have plenty of with the exception of boons. It’s kinda like the thieves that champion the class and say it has no passives but conveniently forget about acro, panic strikes and a fair number of other very passive traits.
Yeah a scrapper should never really get burst down by a thief as they usually have protection on CC which reduces the burst substantially. Ele it can be tricky as they have low base health and instead rely more on regening health than completely avoid being hit. A thief should never lose to FA ele, at all, ever and is the only instance I would say that thief player should gitgud. A DD ele built like Sevens can go down very fast if caught unaware but a quick shocking aura or ring of fire into fire grab can knock off over half a thieves health.
Power shatter I tend to find depends on if you can CC the thief long enough to get a burst off, if you can’t then it will usually be GG. Given I see bandits defence a lot with thieves it means they usually have a stunbreak ready and proceed to dodge away 3 times, stealth for a while till mesmer wastes its cool downs then BS, auto till dead.
Anyway what are you playing for tempest, a variant on Sevens builds or the meta?
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Yeah agreed, this entire request makes no sense and especially not for the reasons given.
I’m guessing maybe they mean in combat but you can’t (or shouldn’t be able to) stat swap mid combat.
Easy answer:
Thief in general. Best mobility in the game (with stun break), condition cleanse, self buffs, high damage and permanent access to stealth. In pvp only half as powerful because the stats are capped. Needs to happen in wvw too.Doesn’t every other profession have (more) stun breaks, condi cleanse, (more) self boons, but can also survive being hit by 2 skills?
The answer is yes, please pick something actually broken.
Daredevil has I believe the 2nd lowest cool down stun break in the game (not counting revs due to energy/traiting) and certainly one of the lowest cool down blocks in the game. It also generally has the lowest cool down on their heals while also being nearly completely immune to chill, cripple and immobilise which are massive problems for other classes. They also enjoy some pretty decent condition cleansing since SoA was buffed to 3 conditions but the endurance regen wasn’t nerfed like it was in PvP.
There’s also very few classes that can survive 2 hits if they run zerk and obviously didn’t use any skills, that’s without mentioning most thieves use enough marauder to hit 16k health which most classes try to get for roaming. I think only warriors can really survive 2 hits from anything that would down a thief. Certainly everything that would down a thief in 2 hits would down an equally geared ele, guard, mesmer, ranger, engy and rev assuming no passive trait proc’d, which is possible if you go from above the health threshold to downed.
I agree though, they should pick things that are actually broken like stealth, like the excessive mobility some classes have and the excessive regen some classes have.
So a question to any hipsters out there running baseline mesmer. How frustrating is it to shatter and people just carry on doing everything they do and your clones never reach the target?
At the moment either swiftness access should be massively reduced or swiftness should be baseline for shatters as they simply do not hit if they aren’t detonated directly on the target.
As for the OP your problem isn’t the superspeed your problem is that you aren’t denying the shield phantasms most likely. Without shield phantasms mesmer runs out of clones a lot faster and so shatters less often giving you less to dodge. Use an unblockable blind/CC or dodge the summon of the phantasm and try not to hit the block of the shield to trigger a second use.
(edited by apharma.3741)
I don’t entirely agree Cyninja, you should always take moa on escort for the wargs….
Joking aside I usually take GW for sloth as we don’t lack the CC mostly and it’s useful to throw on slublings near the end to give you some respite when people don’t rotate as quick as they should and some go down.
I also sometimes use it on gorseval for the adds so they get constantly CC’d when pulled in. Your reasons are not wrong just saying I sometimes take GW for add control as we have a few people in my group who seem to always be in the wrong place getting hit by a lot of that stuff.
Oh absolutely, if that works for you go fot it. That’s the reason I tried to give a brief overview what the 3 elites are good for and which criteria are important when you decide to pick one.
The reason I was slightly ticked at Asgard Ragna.8165 was he picked 1 quote from person A and half a quote from me and decided to go with explaining why Moa is a must pick for mesmer. It’s not, it’s a high value pick on many fights (very very high value on some making it “must use”) but you always have opportunity costs with mesmer elites which gets dictated by the boss and group composition and ability of your raid.
Yeah, I think people rely on Moa too much as well. What happens if mesmer is in a different role of say DPS or doesn’t use chrono and blurred inscriptions? Suddenly you might have 1 moa every 3 minutes, that’s twice in a fight, maybe 3 times, same would be true of time warp and no gravity well.
I guess right now we can only hope new specialisations make a power DPS role needed so blurred inscriptions is taken and Moa is somewhat useful on a 144s CD. That or we get an elite that’s more useful than Moa and quickness is covered by another class/classes.
I see what you mean about Asgard’s post.
You can do it for power, by giving something a low base coefficient and a high scaling for power. However, that just encourages people to run builds with both power and condition damage (and expertise if they can squeeze it in).
No you can’t, the damage calculation is weapon strength*power*coefficient of the skill including auto attacks/armour.
Skills do not have a basic damage number that factors into it, it is entirely a derived value.
rune wise: legendary armor is in the 2k-3k gold ballpark. if you buy 2k gold worth of runes you bet you can swap them often enough. so huh?
How many ascended sets would i get for 2-3k gold with even better skins?
Purely crafting you are looking anything from 250-350g (so 9-10sets) but there’s ways to reduce the cost like with doing fractals and getting the pages and crafting the mark for about 15g.
There’s also the aspect of being able to stat swap so you could craft a few sets of armour and stat swap them when you settle on a new build that you test with exotics first. The difference between exotic and ascended is a couple of percent, less than 5 I know but not the exact figure, either way it won’t make a big difference in WvW. When you factor that in how much exotic/ascended armour and rune combos could you try with 2-3k gold?
Exactly. Thats the reason im not bothered with raids to get gears as i can get the same in less time and less money.
Yeah I hear you on that. Legendary armour is convenient but basically all I’ve actually done with it is delete my other 2 sets of armour and keep the runes saving 10 squares of inventory space. I guess I can also play condi ele more easily now without having to swap class and steal the ascended armour from them but it’s purely convenience at that point.
@Baldrick It depends on what you do, if you karma train with a blue tag like certain national servers then you could get levels very quickly. If you only roam and never cap stuff or like some GvG guilds deliberately avoiding any form of PPT then they go up a lot slower. I personally do a mix to experience different aspects but mostly do small group roaming with PPT as a means to fights or getting blobbed down when the 5 guys we killed call for help from the 30 man zerg.
I honestly don’t know how long it would take to max it all out as they changed it a while back and I suddenly went from a few things left to max out to all done. Perhaps the wiki might help with saying how many points you need.
(edited by apharma.3741)