Guild Wars 2

It is the Friday after the new patch which dealt directly with WvW. Give it time, today is the peak day for WvW for a lot of guilds. It will get better this weekend and next week.

Vayne.8563:

So many people aren’t in guilds it’s not funny. You see it on the forums all the time. People have trouble with pugs, I suggest joining a guild and people say they don’t want to. They don’t have time or they don’t like people, or they like to meet random people. I don’t get it.

I’d say a much larger percentage of people in this game don’t have a guild than you’d think. which is why it worked.

Vayne, I’ve never agreed with you more…

Ah, I misread the OP then. I thought you were asking for better rewards in the form of better gear. If that is not the case, then I agree that the rewards in this game are largely not scaled correctly to the content, especially in terms of difficulty to reward.

I would love to see more of the weapon skins be found in specific geographic locations and drop more frequently, but, unlike in GW1 where the req would be different, have them be different in blue, green, gold or exotic. Although one set back is that it is largely inconsequential due to transmutation crystals.

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

Agony resistance doesn’t create gating problems like a gear treadmill will. Also, agony resistance doesn’t really satisfy the gear treadmill person like the OP. Remember, the OP is asking for MORE vertical progression – not saying that what we have is good enough.

And as I’ve said before the top percentage of people who MUST HAVE better stats will leave, but it’s not necessarily a huge percentage. Some will stay…and that’s the point.

I’m good with that, I think we are agreeing here. We just like to argue too much to realize it.

Agony resistance doesn’t create gating problems like a gear treadmill will. Also, agony resistance doesn’t really satisfy the gear treadmill person like the OP. Remember, the OP is asking for MORE vertical progression – not saying that what we have is good enough.

Let me ask you this, what do the people do when they get the max gear they want? Inevitably, many will fly through the content to get the gear and then say, “what next?” And then we have the same cycle of either ANet adds the gear and they stay or they don’t add the gear and they leave, or they realize that the gear they have is sufficient and they stay. In any case, the gear itself isn’t the thing that is keeping them playing the game, it is the thing that is making them leave the game. Well, why not just say, cya later? I mean, unless you are going to implement a giant gear treadmill, what’s the point of trying to appease those people? I admit that ascended gear really isn’t that bad – but I don’t think this game should take it to one extreme or the other, which is what the OP is kind of saying.

I don’t know what you are trying to say there.

Believe, me, I understand that getting rewards is fun for a lot of people, but it doesn’t provide a meaningful game experience for long. Just like chocolate won’t substitute for sex for long.

I mean, do you honestly think the people that log in just for doing the dailies and farming world boss gold chests are really going to be around for a long time? Probably not.

Hawkian.6580:

clay.7849:

Then give us stuff that will make me want to purchase gems. Like I said, I haven’t purchased gems because of RNG – same with you. So, the smart people aren’t purchasing gems. How is that helping their bottom line?

Is this a serious contention or are you being coy? I’d imagine it is helping their bottom line because the dollars of the impatient and unintelligent are of equivalent value to “smart people” dollars.

edit: To be clear, I’m not saying that people spending money on Gems to try for the skins right now are by definition unintelligent and/or impatient (okay, maybe impatient). I was just adopting the counterpoint to clay’s premise for the sake of argument.

We honestly don’t know. I can’t imagine that there are people out there that are dropping huge dollars on this game just for the chance of getting a skin. If there are, then perhaps I am just naive. Again, I know that we don’t know this, but doesn’t it seem like it would be a heck of a lot easier – and also better for the community – if skins were just available in the cash shop?

Of course, then it would take away from the “rareness” of the skin and would possibly drop the perceived “coolness” or worth of the item.

I dunno, I just can’t get my head around the fact that people spend large amounts of money for Black Lion Keys which is worse than playing the Mystic Toilet.

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

kRiza krimos.1637:

ASB.4295:

clay.7849:

Well, the idea that you need new items to overcome new challenges is something that is largely in your head.

That’s the thing, isn’t it? It’s not a real progression, but an illusory one. Whether encounters truly become more difficult or are just a are of numbers however is largely irrelevant. What most people crave is not a specific kind of progression, but the feeling of having progressed. Even if it’s just an illusory number, better gear is far superior at creating the feeling of “getting somewhere” with your playtime for many many people than, compared to say, the mastery of a new mob mechanic. Production costs for vertical progression is also a hell of a lot lower than trying to implement new mechanics. Most people don’t care how they improve, for them all that matters is the good feeling they get once in a while in the back of their head when the game tells them they improved themselves. +5 power triggers that feeling a lot more reliably than anything else.

Following that logic, people that wants good feeling you get after having sex could just eat bunch of chocholate for same effect (science proved this).
Only now they have good feeling and they are also fat kittens. Translate this into feeling people get from carrots on treadmill, and money they wasted over years to have a bite of that carrot. At least GW2 is honest about this, since they are not after you monthly chip so they dont have to be that prostitute that stuff you with chocholate saying that your having great sex for your money.

Sorry, but if you’ve ever had sex and had chocolate, you would know the difference. Just because the same neurotransmitters may get released, doesn’t mean they feel the same.

That is just a bad analogy. Chocolate has never made me orgasm.

You need to get some better chocolate.

Or you need to find a girlfriend?

I have a girlfriend. (My wife is furious).

I hope one of them is better than chocolate.

Not at my age.

Your age or their age?

Mine. They’re so going to close this thread. lol

Lol. Hopefully.

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

kRiza krimos.1637:

ASB.4295:

clay.7849:

Well, the idea that you need new items to overcome new challenges is something that is largely in your head.

That’s the thing, isn’t it? It’s not a real progression, but an illusory one. Whether encounters truly become more difficult or are just a are of numbers however is largely irrelevant. What most people crave is not a specific kind of progression, but the feeling of having progressed. Even if it’s just an illusory number, better gear is far superior at creating the feeling of “getting somewhere” with your playtime for many many people than, compared to say, the mastery of a new mob mechanic. Production costs for vertical progression is also a hell of a lot lower than trying to implement new mechanics. Most people don’t care how they improve, for them all that matters is the good feeling they get once in a while in the back of their head when the game tells them they improved themselves. +5 power triggers that feeling a lot more reliably than anything else.

Following that logic, people that wants good feeling you get after having sex could just eat bunch of chocholate for same effect (science proved this).
Only now they have good feeling and they are also fat kittens. Translate this into feeling people get from carrots on treadmill, and money they wasted over years to have a bite of that carrot. At least GW2 is honest about this, since they are not after you monthly chip so they dont have to be that prostitute that stuff you with chocholate saying that your having great sex for your money.

Sorry, but if you’ve ever had sex and had chocolate, you would know the difference. Just because the same neurotransmitters may get released, doesn’t mean they feel the same.

That is just a bad analogy. Chocolate has never made me orgasm.

You need to get some better chocolate.

Or you need to find a girlfriend?

I have a girlfriend. (My wife is furious).

I hope one of them is better than chocolate.

Not at my age.

Your age or their age?

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

kRiza krimos.1637:

ASB.4295:

clay.7849:

Well, the idea that you need new items to overcome new challenges is something that is largely in your head.

That’s the thing, isn’t it? It’s not a real progression, but an illusory one. Whether encounters truly become more difficult or are just a are of numbers however is largely irrelevant. What most people crave is not a specific kind of progression, but the feeling of having progressed. Even if it’s just an illusory number, better gear is far superior at creating the feeling of “getting somewhere” with your playtime for many many people than, compared to say, the mastery of a new mob mechanic. Production costs for vertical progression is also a hell of a lot lower than trying to implement new mechanics. Most people don’t care how they improve, for them all that matters is the good feeling they get once in a while in the back of their head when the game tells them they improved themselves. +5 power triggers that feeling a lot more reliably than anything else.

Following that logic, people that wants good feeling you get after having sex could just eat bunch of chocholate for same effect (science proved this).
Only now they have good feeling and they are also fat kittens. Translate this into feeling people get from carrots on treadmill, and money they wasted over years to have a bite of that carrot. At least GW2 is honest about this, since they are not after you monthly chip so they dont have to be that prostitute that stuff you with chocholate saying that your having great sex for your money.

Sorry, but if you’ve ever had sex and had chocolate, you would know the difference. Just because the same neurotransmitters may get released, doesn’t mean they feel the same.

That is just a bad analogy. Chocolate has never made me orgasm.

You need to get some better chocolate.

Or you need to find a girlfriend?

I have a girlfriend. (My wife is furious).

I hope one of them is better than chocolate.

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

kRiza krimos.1637:

ASB.4295:

clay.7849:

Well, the idea that you need new items to overcome new challenges is something that is largely in your head.

That’s the thing, isn’t it? It’s not a real progression, but an illusory one. Whether encounters truly become more difficult or are just a are of numbers however is largely irrelevant. What most people crave is not a specific kind of progression, but the feeling of having progressed. Even if it’s just an illusory number, better gear is far superior at creating the feeling of “getting somewhere” with your playtime for many many people than, compared to say, the mastery of a new mob mechanic. Production costs for vertical progression is also a hell of a lot lower than trying to implement new mechanics. Most people don’t care how they improve, for them all that matters is the good feeling they get once in a while in the back of their head when the game tells them they improved themselves. +5 power triggers that feeling a lot more reliably than anything else.

Following that logic, people that wants good feeling you get after having sex could just eat bunch of chocholate for same effect (science proved this).
Only now they have good feeling and they are also fat kittens. Translate this into feeling people get from carrots on treadmill, and money they wasted over years to have a bite of that carrot. At least GW2 is honest about this, since they are not after you monthly chip so they dont have to be that prostitute that stuff you with chocholate saying that your having great sex for your money.

Sorry, but if you’ve ever had sex and had chocolate, you would know the difference. Just because the same neurotransmitters may get released, doesn’t mean they feel the same.

That is just a bad analogy. Chocolate has never made me orgasm.

You need to get some better chocolate.

Or you need to find a girlfriend?

Vayne.8563:

Actually I don’t argue against people who say reasonable things. I argue against the unreasonable…which I find to be quite reasonable.

So it is unreasonable for GW1 players to think GW2 isn’t a good game?

Not to mention the fact that you said specifically that the only reason you argue that the game is so good is because the majority of the forum is negative and if it was more positive you would be more negative. That is the exact definition of playing devil’s advocate, which itself is an unreasonable position to take.

kRiza krimos.1637:

ASB.4295:

clay.7849:

Well, the idea that you need new items to overcome new challenges is something that is largely in your head.

That’s the thing, isn’t it? It’s not a real progression, but an illusory one. Whether encounters truly become more difficult or are just a are of numbers however is largely irrelevant. What most people crave is not a specific kind of progression, but the feeling of having progressed. Even if it’s just an illusory number, better gear is far superior at creating the feeling of “getting somewhere” with your playtime for many many people than, compared to say, the mastery of a new mob mechanic. Production costs for vertical progression is also a hell of a lot lower than trying to implement new mechanics. Most people don’t care how they improve, for them all that matters is the good feeling they get once in a while in the back of their head when the game tells them they improved themselves. +5 power triggers that feeling a lot more reliably than anything else.

Following that logic, people that wants good feeling you get after having sex could just eat bunch of chocholate for same effect (science proved this).
Only now they have good feeling and they are also fat kittens. Translate this into feeling people get from carrots on treadmill, and money they wasted over years to have a bite of that carrot. At least GW2 is honest about this, since they are not after you monthly chip so they dont have to be that prostitute that stuff you with chocholate saying that your having great sex for your money.

Sorry, but if you’ve ever had sex and had chocolate, you would know the difference. Just because the same neurotransmitters may get released, doesn’t mean they feel the same.

That is just a bad analogy. Chocolate has never made me orgasm.

And they have all failed. You missed that part, which is integral to the whole business need to make money part. So far, ANet is walking the same line.

But, I realized that you basically said you are playing devil’s advocate. So, back ally your whole perspective is to argue against the majority. That’s what bothers me the most. No matter what anyone says, you are going to argue against it. No point in playing that game.

Vayne forgets that GW2 had years of experience behind them heading in to GW2. There is no excuse for the game being released unfinished except for the money. It certainly wasn’t for the players.

To suggest that GW2 should be compared to GW1 on the same timeline is flawed.

@Vayne

There were definitely problems with GW1, but they were largely introduced with new expansions and peaked with Nightfall. But, lets face it, there are a lot of things that GW1 did right that GW2 doesn’t have, and vice versa. Of course most of it is subjective, but there are things that, if you look at the niche market it served, have been left out that is a detriment to that niche. Not to mention, there are some things you say that are firmly against the majority, such as arguing against people that agree that GW1s story was better than GW2’s story. I don’t think that is subjective, I think it is a fact.

Basically the fact that GW1 left the idea of a CORPG game behind in favor of an MMORPG is big differnece between the two games and is going to kitten off the niche of people that want a CORPG. No matter how much you sugar coat it, those people have a right to be upset with the way the game has changed.

And, if you look at what happened to the development team, I think it is safe to assume that the game changed direction enough that two founders left the company, which mean that you assumption of GW1 being a precursor to GW2 today may be flawed.

Basically, ANet abandoned the niche market of GW1 and clearly that is gonna upset people. No rose colored glasses needed. It was a very successful game that is completely different. How is that do incomprehensible?

@Vayne

Try not to speak for all Guild Wars 1 players, because I’m one, and I disagree with a lot of what you’ve said.

It works both ways.

Magic find in dungeons doesn’t help because as a group of 5 it helps if everyone pulls their own weight. Using MF doesn’t allow you to really use other armor that would help clear the dungeon and you are much less useful. You can use MF food to boost yor MF in dungeons, but you’re better off running other armor there. In places like Orr where you have zergs and you just need to tag a mob to get drops, MF armor is perfect.

Forums. Gotta do something when I’m at work.

Just don’t take your magic find set to dungeons, save it for the open world.

BioFringe.7945:

@Clay & killcannon, et al…

I’ve been monitoring the World Selection screen over the past 24 hours and it seems that you all are correct about server population (home vs logged in). Unless of course no-one has logged off any of the servers in the past day but that’s highly unlikely.

That is all…just wanted to admit my mistaken beliefs.

Thank you. It was definitely different when server transfers were free.

@Rochambeau

I don’t understand what you mean by high this week, but I see your tin foil hat is firmly affixed to your noggin.

killcannon.2576:

WoW pretty much died under its own weight. It’s one reason why WoW clones die so fast, and why GW2 has a chance not to. No one wants to play WoW that isn’t WoW, because the friends and guilds are the only thing that keeps it aloft, and why people always go back. It’s familiar. It’s nostalgic. It’s comfortable. These same reasons are why so many GW1 players are upset at GW2.

But you hit on an important part, companies need money to develop games, games have to make money. Gw1 developed the way it did partly because they didn’t have the funds to develop their vision of a true mmo. They have included so many things in GW2 from GW1 and only reluctantly added some small part of vertical progression to draw in more players and to (hopefully) teach these players there is more to an mmo than just vertical progression. This game has to do better than GW, has to attract a broader range of players.

Instead of belittling the vertical progression players just because, perhaps take some time to help show them what GW2 really has to offer, because they won’t look for it on their own, they don’t know how to. It’s been trained out of them for years upon years upon years. There’s a whole world out there and it’s up to GW players to show it off, instead of just complaining.

I wasn’t trying to belittle anyone, so I apologize to the OP if it sounded that way.

I can honestly say that this thread was one of the best threads I have been a part of and changed my view of the game a bit more towards the favorable side.

It’s still not better than GW1 though

Hawkian.6580:

killcannon.2576:

Your opinion isn’t incorrect. But I believe you don’t quite understand why they introduce power creep and vertical progression. It’s to keep people in the game, and it’s effective. Very Very Very effective. A quick, but maybe not totally appropriate analogy would be that you can treat infections with things other than antibiotics, but antibiotics work so well, so incredibly well, why would you. The thing with GW2 is that it uses antibiotics, plus homeopathy, plus spiritual healing, plus sacrificing to the old gods, plus a giant gorilla. But people are focusing on it using antibiotics, and think it somehow invalidates everything else.

I expected that analogy to go off the rails, but that’s really just about accurate.

GW2 already offers essentially more than I ever imagined it would in terms of providing ways for you to keep yourself entertained. And I imagine the people having the most unbridled fun are those that do a mix of everything as it suits them rather than feeling like they need to do anything at all. The world of Tyria is essentially as close to a sandbox as a theme park MMO can get (my guildie calls it a “sandpark”).

For some people getting the absolute Best-in-slot gear is just not that interesting or important. In many other games this would be the difference between being able to access all of the content and not. In Guild Wars 2 it is nothing of the sort. Thus it is the kind of game for me; it can’t possibly be the kind of game for everyone.

Now, if they can only add acupuncture, I mean good PvP, to the game, it would be nice.

I don’t disagree with everything you guys are saying. Remember, I was addressing the OP which was asking for more gear progression when I don’t think it is necessary and tried to state why. The ascended gear thing isn’t as bad as people make it out to be, I’ll give you that.

The balance and scaling for loot vs. difficulty in this game is seriously out of whack.

killcannon.2576:

Your opinion isn’t incorrect. But I believe you don’t quite understand why they introduce power creep and vertical progression. It’s to keep people in the game, and it’s effective. Very Very Very effective. A quick, but maybe not totally appropriate analogy would be that you can treat infections with things other than antibiotics, but antibiotics work so well, so incredibly well, why would you. The thing with GW2 is that it uses antibiotics, plus homeopathy, plus spiritual healing, plus sacrificing to the old gods, plus a giant gorilla. But people are focusing on it using antibiotics, and think it somehow invalidates everything else.

I agree it’s effective, but it’s mostly effective because it’s the easy way out, and people are lazy and because no one has made anything better.

When they do, it will sell.

Vayne.8563:

Having played Guild Wars 1 for years, I’ve been conditioned to think more in terms of balanced builds than focused builds. Many people come from games where maximizing damage to squeeze out every drop was important, because you had a tank and a healer to protect you.

You can be just as successful, even more successful in Guild Wars 2 with a balanced build. That’s why armor at the temples in Orr don’t have just one stat on every piece. You may not like it because you think putting even more points in precision or power is the only way to go. It’s not.

If you think balanced builds, which is what the game is basically designed around, you’d see why these stats are offered.

If you want to stack everything in one direction, you can do it, but I don’t believe you’ll be more effective at the end of the day than having a balanced build—in most cases anyway.

Min/maxing is more effective, I can’t believe anyone would suggest otherwise.

I mean, if I run a condition build, why would I want gear that doesn’t help my condition damage?

killcannon.2576:

clay.7849:

killcannon.2576:

clay.7849:

killcannon.2576:

clay.7849:

killcannon.2576:

And GW1 was not an mmo, no matter how many times people keep saying it and wanting to believe it. This is an mmo and needs to address issues of an entrenched mmo player base, regardless of the evils of power creep or vertical progression. MMO’s need to keep people playing, so they can make money not only from gem store purchases but also to make the claim of a living world with people in it. More people will play if more people are online and so forth and so on. This isn’t just a coop rpg anymore and has to follow different rules. While WoW players won’t find WoW 2.0 here, neither will GW1 players find GW1 2.0 here. It’s past time for people to accept this fact and just get on with enjoying the parts of the game you do like.

So, you’re saying that because GW1 wasn’t an MMO it didn’t compete with any other MMO’s for customers? Right….

All games compete with each other for customers to some extent, saying so otherwise would be obtuse. For example, I also play rts, fps, and standard rpgs. These aren’t in the same genre but compete for my time. What I don’t do is compare what naturally fits into an rts or standard rpg to what mmo’s need to be effective. While there is some bleed from any genre to any other genre, there are some things that certain genres need, that others just do not. While an rts may benefit from a strong story and character progression, it isn’t what it needs to compete in the rts genre, which is strong unit ai, pathing, map support, fun and effective units, and possibly base building.

Except you didn’t see CoD on the top of MMORPG.com for years like you did GW1.

CoD was not a direct competitor of WoW, GW1 was. Talk about being obtuse…

Gw was never a competitor to WoW, in mmo terms. It attracted a totally different player base then WoW did. There was some cross over of course, the same way most players who play mmorpg’s like standard rpgs. If you want to continue this line of response/query, please state why you believe GW1 was an mmo.

I don’t think it was an MMO. Although, if we take the idea of an MMO, we have Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game. The existence of instanced vs. persistent areas doesn’t detract from that definition, nor does the requirement of partying or cooperative play. ANet gave the game the CORPG designation, everyone else accepted it as an MMORPG.

Again, that is really neither here nor there. GW1 directly competed with WoW more than any other game at the time, unless you can think of a different one it competed with. I would be open to changing my mind should you come up with something.

There really wasn’t any competition for GW1 at the time, it fulfilled a rpg players wet dream. It gave a rich, vibrant, world to explore with old friends and new. It had an effective and fun player hub in the lobbies that were cities. If it was in any genre I suppose it would be the same as Neverwinter Nights, and other coop rpgs that you could play with friends. Sadly that genre has died out in favor of MMO’s, but may be coming back in some small part in Neverwinter and perhaps some others.

And yet, instead of trying to continue to address that market, and cultivate that market, GW2 has decided to court the fickle MMO crowd which is a tough beast to tame and have never really given up their love for WoW.

Personally, I think it would have been more profitable to do the former, not because the the market is bigger (it isn’t) but because it would be easier to continue to attract and develop that market, rather than trying to face the behemoth that is WoW and their giant pools of money they make (but are extremely difficult to capitalize on if you’re not WoW).

killcannon.2576:

clay.7849:

killcannon.2576:

clay.7849:

killcannon.2576:

And GW1 was not an mmo, no matter how many times people keep saying it and wanting to believe it. This is an mmo and needs to address issues of an entrenched mmo player base, regardless of the evils of power creep or vertical progression. MMO’s need to keep people playing, so they can make money not only from gem store purchases but also to make the claim of a living world with people in it. More people will play if more people are online and so forth and so on. This isn’t just a coop rpg anymore and has to follow different rules. While WoW players won’t find WoW 2.0 here, neither will GW1 players find GW1 2.0 here. It’s past time for people to accept this fact and just get on with enjoying the parts of the game you do like.

So, you’re saying that because GW1 wasn’t an MMO it didn’t compete with any other MMO’s for customers? Right….

I’m glad you think that in order to sell more games, you must follow the “rules”. Those rules worked out so well for every other game that has tried to follow them, eh?

What other multiplayer online games have been successful following those rules except WoW?

If you keep editing I can’t give a concise reply. Again (as I stated in my post), no one should expect this to be WoW 2.0. I actually think players from WoW want less of WoW in this game than you would assume. This game is a drastic change from mmo norms, but for some reason GW1 players either can’t or refuse to see it. It has become a template for newer mmo’s to come. ESO and NW are both using ideas pioneered in GW2 to break away from the pack.

Perhaps it is because GW1 players have a GW1 point of reference and WoW players have a WoW point of reference? I don’t like the ascended gear mess because it was rather dumb. But, at least it didn’t cause any content to get gated from players, so in that respect it isn’t all that bad.

I also agreed that GW2 is a stepping stone in the right direction for MMO’s in some regards.

What I don’t agree is that there is a need for vertical gear progression in a game because it simply doesn’t change anything about the game. The encounters are still the same, the combat is still the same, you just get to add an inch to your kitten. To me, that doesn’t make a game good. It would be better to add content that actually enhances the game play.

You are correct it doesn’t change anything about the inherent game play. What progression does is give a reason for mmo players to play, the same way as adding jumping puzzles, story missions, cosmetic items, new dungeons, new places to explore gives all those other types of players places to play. MMo’s travel a broad avenue much more so than other game types, and must appeal to a broader audience. Gw2 in particular has chosen to do this as a prime focus. I have seen many things added to this game than just ascended gear which so many focus on and seem to be upset over, and I am sure I will see even more added as time progresses.

Don’t you think that people would be more apt to play a game where the game is actually good rather than for “vertical gear progression.”

That’s what I’m saying, single player RPG’s do this, online FPS games do this, M:TG does this… why are MMO’s so much different? I do agree that there are some people that will hate the idea and move on, but I also think that there are a lot of people that just want to play a good game. They don’t want to worry about whether they have a Righteous Greatsword of Justice with +1,000 Smiting Ability to beat the next boss. I think people would actually enjoy a game where the boss just provides a new challenge, the reward of overcoming the challenge, and some shinies that have nothing to do with vertical gear progression – which essentially causes power creep and gating.

Now, that is my opinion, yes. But, based on the fact that really MMO’s are one of the few games to introduce this kind of progression in to games, I think that it is at least plausible that my opinion could be correct. However, it could be that needing to be better than everyone else is inherent in the culture of MMO’s as it is equally part of our first world culture. Perhaps, the majority of people really do just want to have the bigger kitten and show it off with their Righteous Greatsword of Justice regardless of whether a game is good or not or whether it gates other players from playing.

If that is the case, then I weep for all of us, because it just amounts to selfishness.

killcannon.2576:

clay.7849:

killcannon.2576:

clay.7849:

killcannon.2576:

And GW1 was not an mmo, no matter how many times people keep saying it and wanting to believe it. This is an mmo and needs to address issues of an entrenched mmo player base, regardless of the evils of power creep or vertical progression. MMO’s need to keep people playing, so they can make money not only from gem store purchases but also to make the claim of a living world with people in it. More people will play if more people are online and so forth and so on. This isn’t just a coop rpg anymore and has to follow different rules. While WoW players won’t find WoW 2.0 here, neither will GW1 players find GW1 2.0 here. It’s past time for people to accept this fact and just get on with enjoying the parts of the game you do like.

So, you’re saying that because GW1 wasn’t an MMO it didn’t compete with any other MMO’s for customers? Right….

All games compete with each other for customers to some extent, saying so otherwise would be obtuse. For example, I also play rts, fps, and standard rpgs. These aren’t in the same genre but compete for my time. What I don’t do is compare what naturally fits into an rts or standard rpg to what mmo’s need to be effective. While there is some bleed from any genre to any other genre, there are some things that certain genres need, that others just do not. While an rts may benefit from a strong story and character progression, it isn’t what it needs to compete in the rts genre, which is strong unit ai, pathing, map support, fun and effective units, and possibly base building.

Except you didn’t see CoD on the top of MMORPG.com for years like you did GW1.

CoD was not a direct competitor of WoW, GW1 was. Talk about being obtuse…

Gw was never a competitor to WoW, in mmo terms. It attracted a totally different player base then WoW did. There was some cross over of course, the same way most players who play mmorpg’s like standard rpgs. If you want to continue this line of response/query, please state why you believe GW1 was an mmo.

I don’t think it was an MMO. Although, if we take the idea of an MMO, we have Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game. The existence of instanced vs. persistent areas doesn’t detract from that definition, nor does the requirement of partying or cooperative play. ANet gave the game the CORPG designation, everyone else accepted it as an MMORPG.

Again, that is really neither here nor there. GW1 directly competed with WoW more than any other game at the time, unless you can think of a different one it competed with. I would be open to changing my mind should you come up with something.

killcannon.2576:

clay.7849:

killcannon.2576:

And GW1 was not an mmo, no matter how many times people keep saying it and wanting to believe it. This is an mmo and needs to address issues of an entrenched mmo player base, regardless of the evils of power creep or vertical progression. MMO’s need to keep people playing, so they can make money not only from gem store purchases but also to make the claim of a living world with people in it. More people will play if more people are online and so forth and so on. This isn’t just a coop rpg anymore and has to follow different rules. While WoW players won’t find WoW 2.0 here, neither will GW1 players find GW1 2.0 here. It’s past time for people to accept this fact and just get on with enjoying the parts of the game you do like.

So, you’re saying that because GW1 wasn’t an MMO it didn’t compete with any other MMO’s for customers? Right….

I’m glad you think that in order to sell more games, you must follow the “rules”. Those rules worked out so well for every other game that has tried to follow them, eh?

What other multiplayer online games have been successful following those rules except WoW?

If you keep editing I can’t give a concise reply. Again (as I stated in my post), no one should expect this to be WoW 2.0. I actually think players from WoW want less of WoW in this game than you would assume. This game is a drastic change from mmo norms, but for some reason GW1 players either can’t or refuse to see it. It has become a template for newer mmo’s to come. ESO and NW are both using ideas pioneered in GW2 to break away from the pack.

Perhaps it is because GW1 players have a GW1 point of reference and WoW players have a WoW point of reference? I don’t like the ascended gear mess because it was rather dumb. But, at least it didn’t cause any content to get gated from players, so in that respect it isn’t all that bad.

I also agreed that GW2 is a stepping stone in the right direction for MMO’s in some regards.

What I don’t agree is that there is a need for vertical gear progression in a game because it simply doesn’t change anything about the game. The encounters are still the same, the combat is still the same, you just get to add an inch to your kitten. To me, that doesn’t make a game good. It would be better to add content that actually enhances the game play.

killcannon.2576:

clay.7849:

killcannon.2576:

And GW1 was not an mmo, no matter how many times people keep saying it and wanting to believe it. This is an mmo and needs to address issues of an entrenched mmo player base, regardless of the evils of power creep or vertical progression. MMO’s need to keep people playing, so they can make money not only from gem store purchases but also to make the claim of a living world with people in it. More people will play if more people are online and so forth and so on. This isn’t just a coop rpg anymore and has to follow different rules. While WoW players won’t find WoW 2.0 here, neither will GW1 players find GW1 2.0 here. It’s past time for people to accept this fact and just get on with enjoying the parts of the game you do like.

So, you’re saying that because GW1 wasn’t an MMO it didn’t compete with any other MMO’s for customers? Right….

All games compete with each other for customers to some extent, saying so otherwise would be obtuse. For example, I also play rts, fps, and standard rpgs. These aren’t in the same genre but compete for my time. What I don’t do is compare what naturally fits into an rts or standard rpg to what mmo’s need to be effective. While there is some bleed from any genre to any other genre, there are some things that certain genres need, that others just do not. While an rts may benefit from a strong story and character progression, it isn’t what it needs to compete in the rts genre, which is strong unit ai, pathing, map support, fun and effective units, and possibly base building.

Except you didn’t see CoD on the top of MMORPG.com for years like you did GW1.

CoD was not a direct competitor of WoW, GW1 was. Talk about being obtuse…

killcannon.2576:

And GW1 was not an mmo, no matter how many times people keep saying it and wanting to believe it. This is an mmo and needs to address issues of an entrenched mmo player base, regardless of the evils of power creep or vertical progression. MMO’s need to keep people playing, so they can make money not only from gem store purchases but also to make the claim of a living world with people in it. More people will play if more people are online and so forth and so on. This isn’t just a coop rpg anymore and has to follow different rules. While WoW players won’t find WoW 2.0 here, neither will GW1 players find GW1 2.0 here. It’s past time for people to accept this fact and just get on with enjoying the parts of the game you do like.

So, you’re saying that because GW1 wasn’t an MMO it didn’t compete with any other MMO’s for customers? Right….

I’m glad you think that in order to sell more games, you must follow the “rules”. Those rules worked out so well for every other game that has tried to follow them, eh?

What other multiplayer online games have been successful following those rules except WoW?

Hexs.8015:

@zinwrath. What mmo pvp did they leave GW for? Back to wow?

I would suspect LoL or DOTA2. That is where many of the GW1 PvP players went.

Shootsfoot.9276:

I’ll have to take your word for it. Last FPS I played was Descent3.

I can’t stand them.

I mostly play competitive online games, but seriously, google “best gun” for any big FPS and you will get answers all over the map.

Shootsfoot.9276:

I don’t know where you keep getting this “no vertical gear progression” in FPS because every single day my 12 year old son reports what weapon he’s unlocked with his “prestige” or whatever it is in whatever FPS game he’s playing at the moment.

Kid knows more about military weapons than I do, for crying out loud.

Unlocking new weapons is not vertical because they don’t do anything more or less better than old weapons. They are horizontal.

The UMP45 was one of the best guns in the game (CoD MW2) and you had it from day 1.

Same thing with perks, none are better than the other, they are just different.

You will find that this is the case by searching for the best gun in the game – it doesn’t exist. If you looked for the best trinkets in GW2, they would be ascended trinkets.

Vertical progression and horizontal progression are much different.

Not only that but, every time you reach top prestige, you get the option to go back to the beginning and unlock everything again, over and over. The only thing that happens is that you get a new shiny medal next to your name to show what level prestige you are – and it means nothing to the game. It doesn’t give you any extra rewards or perks.

@SneakyErvin

You can try and rationalize it all you want, but wrong is wrong. The devs stated, in black and white, that server “fullness” is tied to accounts, not people online.

You can write 20 more pages about why you think your anecdotal evidence is right, but it would still be wrong.

Besetment.9187:

Thats a problem with MMO design full stop. They are designed to be played for thousands of hours so that the game generates more money over time via subscriptions and/or micro transactions.

How do you get someone to repeat the same thing for thousands of hours? You basically give them a long term goal with a shiny thing at the end of the tunnel and pad it out so it takes thousands of hours to get the shiny.

I think it would be interesting to look at successful game models that don’t offer those short term rewards and see why. Why are FPS games fun to play regardless of any real “vertical gear progression”. Why are single player games fun to play without much vertical gear progression? What about games like Magic: The Gathering, which GW1 has similarities with? What can developers learn from these games to make their game better and worth playing for hours?

Like, what if GW2, instead of Ascended Gear, offered gear that had new stat combinations? What if they had the regular carrion & berserker gear they had in the beginning, and instead of pumping up the stats, came out with ascended gear that had condition damage be the main stat on a piece of armor and precision and power be the other two stats? I don’t think there is armor in the game that exists like that. What if, instead of Ascended Gear, they offered a new stat, like +2% movement speed? Now, these are just examples, but I’m sure that the creative minds at ANet could have come up with something more interesting than a X% increase in stats across the board which is exactly the kind of thing that doesn’t make sense.

Of course, I still think that adding better content is the real answer. Like, why do we have dungeons with 4 linear paths? What happened to the dungeons from MUDs where you could just get lost? Why can’t we have that? I know you might say that it would all get documented in Wiki, but what if there was a way to randomize it? Those are the kinds of ideas that are going to sell. Doing the same gear progression is old news, regardless of whether it is hard wired in MMO players or not. It is still stagnant, and not just that, it’s just bad.

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

This is where we differ. WoW was a phenomenon that can’t be replicated, at least not in their style. I know you think GW2 isn’t a lot like WoW, but underneath the hood, it is. They are very very similar, even though GW2 is a great game and does do some things different.

Now, it is my personal opinion, as a marketing professional, that the best ROI is usually through appealing to a niche crowd. You can disagree all you want, but the fact is that there have been huge budgets for huge games that haven’t come close to taking down WoW.

In fact, the only two games of the last 10 years that could come close to being called successes (other than WoW) are EVE and GW1. GW2 may be a success, but with 6 months in, we can’t really make any concrete determinations thus far.

Basically, I think it is naive to think that in order to beat WoW you need to join WoW. I think, in order to beat WoW you need to be innovative and new. GW2 may be a step in the right direction, but I don’t think it is going to be the WoW killer you think it could be.

Last, I think that vertical gear progression is a lazy way to add to a game’s longevity – and it isn’t going to help to make a game that beats WoW. The game that beats WoW is going to be a game that has better content, not better rewards.

It doesn’t matter if WoW can or can’t be repeated. Guild Wars 2 isn’t like WoW in a a LOT of significant ways. You can’t just say a bit of vertical progression will make Guild Wars 2 like WoW. There are a ton of substantial differences. Having played WoW (and disliked it) I can tell you these games are very different.

Just not having a trinity makes a world of difference. Not gating content. No tagging mobs, individual resource nodes, no standard quests…there really is a world of difference. Limited skill selection bound to your weapon, active dodge, I could go on all day. Hell there aren’t even factions and you’re not farming faction rep. It’s just different.

But as I said, it’s not just WoW. It’s WoW and all the games that came after WoW. You played Guild Wars 1 and avoided it. I’ve played Aion, WoW, Rift, Lotro, Perfect World, DDO, AoC and a bunch of others. The problem is ALL those games trained people to think in terms of vertical progression, not one or two. Every single one of them.

People coming from those games, by and large, want to chase a carrot to some degree. Not all, but most of them. Should Anet close the door to every single person coming from those games that didn’t like Guild Wars 1? I don’t think so.

Anet made a compromise. It’s a form of weaning people off that gear based type of game. Some people are so stuck on the gear thing, they think the stats make that much of a difference. Those people we’re going to lose. But some will stay.

What you can’t do is ignore the bulk of potential players, just because Guild Wars 1 players won’t adapt. It really is that simple. If I were Anet, I’d rather lose some of the Guild Wars 1 players than the bulk of the people coming from other games.

MMOs are big business. Anet has to support a development team of 270 people, and that’s a lot of dosh. They won’t make it with just Guild Wars 1 players, no matter how many copies it sold.

To put it in perspective, Guild Wars sold 7 million copies of 7 years. Diable 3 sold that in the first week. Guild Wars 2 sold much much faster than Guild Wars 1, but people who bought it weren’t just Guild Wars 1 players.

Anet is going to lose a percentage of people on the edges…the die hard grinders and the die hard horizontal progressionists. But they’ll keep most of the people in the middle.

You are making a lot of assumptions here to make your point.

I did buy it based on the assumption that PvP would be as good as PvP in GW1. You know what they say about assumptions…

Shootsfoot.9276:

Astralporing.1957:

Shootsfoot.9276:

See, here’s the issue…you’re taking your opinion of what makes the game great and applying it to everybody when it’s just not possible to do so. If what you are saying really was the hooking part of the game, then after 4 years (arbitrary number) I wouldn’t be logging into an essentially empty Lion’s Arch in GW. The 6 million who bought the game would still be there.

There were still lot of people playing at the time of Winds of change. People left only after it became clear that due to GW2 there will be no more support for GW1 anymore.
The game to live does have to change – new expansions and content are necessary. Balance tweaks are (unfortunately) also necessary. As long as GW received those, no other form of “progress” was needed. Without continued support, it is as good as dead (though the dying stage migh last for some time).
It wasn’t lack of gear treadmill that killed GW1, but it’s abandonment by Anet.

Like Clay stated, the only real thing that kept GW going was its PvP.

And its PvP is much better than GW2’s PvP.

I think one of the biggest misses by Anet in this game was not keeping PvP skills and PvE skills separate. Much easier to balance that way.

At any rate, I love this game, it’s only 6 months old and I hope to see improvements every month.

I have realized that while no game has held my attention like GW1 has, GW2 is still my second favorite MMO. Although, my pace of play has slowed dramatically due to job & family.

I want GW2 to do well. I think that there is still a ton of potential for the game. What I don’t want to see is that it falls to the same traps other games have fallen to. Vertical gear progression for the sake of vertical gear progression is one of the things I do not want to see, not because I think it is bad, but because logically it doesn’t enhance the game.

@HiddenNick

One instance of failed design does not an entire game make. Sorry, but just because ANet made some mistakes with GW1 doesn’t mean that those mistakes defined the game.

@Zenith

I 100% agree with you. I played GW1 PvP almost exclusively. The fact that it was based on skill, not gear, was one of many reasons why it was so good.

@Shootsfoot

I’m not trying to take what made a game great for me. Personally, all I really cared about in GW1 was the PvP. GW1 was successful because of those things, not because I liked them. It’s because those are the things that game did well.

But, if you look at the whole argument logically, unless the gear itself provides more complexity to the game or something that makes the gameplay better, which often times it does not, then you are simply adding rewards for the sake of adding rewards – you’re not actually making the game better.

marnick.4305:

As you said, there were only 3 rather succesful MMOs in the last decade, each was succesful because they were different:

- WoW was always a game for the masses, a themepark MMO at best. Whether you like Justin Bieber or not, he’s popular and that has a value in its own right. Being popular and being good aren’t the same thing though.

- Eve was the space opera trading sandbox.

- Guild Wars 1 was the deck building pvp centred lvl 20 8-button game without a subscription.

Each had a completely different segment of the market cornered, and Eve is just as much a cult game as Guild Wars 1. Guild Wars 2 shouldn’t expect to beat WoW or Eve, but rather be the successor to the Guild Wars 1 segment with a flat gear curve and skilled combat. The foundation is there.

Yes, great post. Unfortunately, GW2 is not really a great successor to GW1 as it basically ignores some of the things that made GW1 great (at least to many people).

I really think that making niche games is the way to make money in this industry. It would be almost impossible to take WoW head on for all of their subscribers. Instead, they should be bled slowly by having those subscribers leave for games that fill their niche better.

My personal background is in marketing, and I can tell you that marketing to a niche crowd almost always has a better ROI, less competition and less cost than trying to market to the general public.

@Tinni

I agree wholeheartedly that people need to stop buying keys if they want things to change. And, as a person who doesn’t care about the skins or the keys, I really have no dog in this race.

I just was pointing out that regardless of what anyone says or what ANet is making, I think the OP has a point. The cash shop for keys for RNG based skins is a bad idea. And, specifically to the post you are quoting, I was responding to someone who said we have no right to tell a company what to do. As a believer in democracy and capitalism, I think that is just plain stupid to say.

I’m gonna leave now, as I really don’t care all that much.

Shootsfoot.9276:

clay.7849:

Shootsfoot.9276:

clay.7849:

Shootsfoot.9276:

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

I’m still a Guild Wars 1 fan. And look at Guild Wars 1. It did okay…but it never really took off. It spent a lot of time wandering in limbo, until we ended up with expansions likes Hearts of the North and Winds of Change. No thanks.

I’ve thought about this a lot and I realize that if I want a game that does what I want it to do, a game to be healthy and alive and coming out with more content, it needs more players.

Anet found out the hard way that the “masses” won’t just go for cosmetic items. They tried and failed. People weren’t going for legendaries, and they were leaving the game, because once they maxed out their characters, they were done. They were trained this way by other games.

Sorry Vayne, I can’t agree with you on this one.

7 years of active population, 4 of which were after the last expansion was released.

One of the best selling PC games ever made.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_PC_video_games

There is nothing about GW1 that failed or any evidence to show it never “took off”. In fact, all the evidence points completely to the contrary.

I don’t think you were ever a GW1 fan, I think you just say that because you think it helps your arguments somehow.

That list is way wrong.

Look how many copies they are saying WoW sold.

That’s because they count each expansion of WoW separate.

Ah, I see.

Still pretty misleading.

Yes, it would be better if they were all included in one number. Even so, it is easy to see that compared to other multiplayer online PC games, GW1 did pretty kitten well.

It did do well, no doubt.

But that doesn’t mean people stayed because they loved the design of grinding for asthetics.

Take the rewards out of the game and think, is this game good just for the actual sake of playing the game?

That is the question we need to ask. And in GW1, in may cases it was. Why?

1. Beautiful world with amazing lore.
2. One of the best cooperative RPG’s ever made
3. One of the best PvP RPG games ever made
4. The story line was very well written and executed
5. The immersion into the world of Tyria was done well

Some of these things can be found in GW2, some are not. None of them have to do with rewards. Same thing can be said of EVE, it is good because the game play is good, not because the rewards are good.

Look at FPS games. There are really no rewards in those games. They are playable over and over again because they are fun to play.

When we stop looking at MMOs in terms of rewards and look at them in terms of whether content is fun to play, that is when we will find the next WoW beater.

Vayne.8563:

It never appealed to the “masses” though. See I have kids in the house and I know what’s talked about. Both the kids left Guild Wars to play WoW, along with all their friends. Eventually, you’d walk into stores and Guild Wars would be in the discount rack.

I went the other way. I left WoW to play Guild Wars. Do you know how many characters I had in Guild Wars? 37, over two accounts. Every single one of them finished Factions and Eye of the North, and most of them finished Prophecies or Nightfall or both. Yeah, I was a die hard fan. There were things I felt could have been done better, but I was a fan.

But I also watched what people were doing. There was WoW with it’s ten million active accounts (Guild Wars sold 7 million copies over a period of 7 years) and a zillion WoW clones. Guild Wars with more of a cult thing. Those who played it thought it was the bees knees (as we say downunder) but a zillion other people thought it was a joke…it was known largely in as a PvP game. A lot of people didn’t even know it had PVe. Frustrated the hell out of me.

The point is, for Anet to take the game to the next step and really create a huge world and content, it would have to appeal to a larger number….remember Anet supported a staff of about 50 people, not 270. In order for them to go where they wanted and take the game to the next level, they had to go mainstream.

And mainstream was my sons, and all the other guys who got trained not just by WoW, but they 87 gazillion games copying WoW. It sucks but that’s how I see it.

This is where we differ. WoW was a phenomenon that can’t be replicated, at least not in their style. I know you think GW2 isn’t a lot like WoW, but underneath the hood, it is. They are very very similar, even though GW2 is a great game and does do some things different.

Now, it is my personal opinion, as a marketing professional, that the best ROI is usually through appealing to a niche crowd. You can disagree all you want, but the fact is that there have been huge budgets for huge games that haven’t come close to taking down WoW.

In fact, the only two games of the last 10 years that could come close to being called successes (other than WoW) are EVE and GW1. GW2 may be a success, but with 6 months in, we can’t really make any concrete determinations thus far.

Basically, I think it is naive to think that in order to beat WoW you need to join WoW. I think, in order to beat WoW you need to be innovative and new. GW2 may be a step in the right direction, but I don’t think it is going to be the WoW killer you think it could be.

Last, I think that vertical gear progression is a lazy way to add to a game’s longevity – and it isn’t going to help to make a game that beats WoW. The game that beats WoW is going to be a game that has better content, not better rewards.

Shootsfoot.9276:

clay.7849:

Shootsfoot.9276:

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

I’m still a Guild Wars 1 fan. And look at Guild Wars 1. It did okay…but it never really took off. It spent a lot of time wandering in limbo, until we ended up with expansions likes Hearts of the North and Winds of Change. No thanks.

I’ve thought about this a lot and I realize that if I want a game that does what I want it to do, a game to be healthy and alive and coming out with more content, it needs more players.

Anet found out the hard way that the “masses” won’t just go for cosmetic items. They tried and failed. People weren’t going for legendaries, and they were leaving the game, because once they maxed out their characters, they were done. They were trained this way by other games.

Sorry Vayne, I can’t agree with you on this one.

7 years of active population, 4 of which were after the last expansion was released.

One of the best selling PC games ever made.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_PC_video_games

There is nothing about GW1 that failed or any evidence to show it never “took off”. In fact, all the evidence points completely to the contrary.

I don’t think you were ever a GW1 fan, I think you just say that because you think it helps your arguments somehow.

That list is way wrong.

Look how many copies they are saying WoW sold.

That’s because they count each expansion of WoW separate.

Ah, I see.

Still pretty misleading.

Yes, it would be better if they were all included in one number. Even so, it is easy to see that compared to other multiplayer online PC games, GW1 did pretty kitten well.