Guild Wars 2

@Tobias

That is true. But, does it constitute making a game around “bad” mechanics over good ones, especially if the band’s first CD was nearly flawless and their second was terrible?

Here are a couple “truths” that I think games should try to adhere to, and that GW2 simply ignores.

First, skill > time. While you shouldn’t make a game impossible to progress in, skill should allow you to progress faster than time. In GW2 this is almost the exact opposite. Nearly every mechanic in GW2 gates you behind time, not skill.

Second, gear treadmill. Yes, people like a gear treadmill, but it doesn’t make logical sense to have one. No, GW2 doesn’t have a real gear treadmill, but it doesn’t seem like it is off the table.

Combat. Combat should be engaging and promote strategy, tactics and cooperation. The combat in this game is really spam skills on recharge and other than some kiting, a self heal and dodging, you can progress through 95% of the content in this game with your auto attack.

So, yes, people may all like grinding, a great treadmill and watered down combat, but I hardly call that a good reason to cater to those people.

The truly sad part is that GW1 attacked these philosophical problems rather well. Not perfectly, but way better than in GW2. GW2 is a step back from GW1 and it’s not because it is different. It is because it is just a worse game with worse mechanics.

Zeefa.3915:

So if you don’t like it, it is bad, regardless of how many others like it? Music is horrible examble to use for bad vs good. If someone enjoys a certain type of music it is good to them, even if you do not like it.

Nope, music is a perfect example. The reason I specifically chose music is because I know that many people think that music is subjective. When, in fact, there are many objective truths to what makes some music good and other music bad.

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

Don’t you see that putting in a band aid fix instead of fixing the core problem is the root of laziness? What you described is a clear example of being too lazy to make something better. You would think in the 5+ years of making this game, they could have done something better. I thought they didn’t want us to “kill 10 wolves or gather 5 plants”. FedEx quests are still FedEx quests, except the start and finish are in the same spot, and instead of taking to someone, it just pops up in your screen like your character is some clairvoyant that just happens to know someone needs 10 Orc pelts… Ya, that’s not lazy…

And you refuse to see that better is in the eye of the beholder. What’s better to one person is not better to the other. I think you’ll find that my better and your better are completely different betters.

So you talk about lazy design. What if they designed something brilliant and I hated it, or you hated it. It’s just not as simple as you make it out to be. The hearts do PRECISELY what they were meant to do. You know the KISS principle, right? Keep it simple, stupid.

The reason a lot of designs fail is because they’re overly complicated. Anet found a problem in their system and they fixed it. It’s not lazy design just because you don’t like it.

When you design something to go against the principles you founded the game on, because it’s an easy fix – that’s lazy. Not only that, it’s insulting to your customer base.

There’s nothing subjective about it. Just because you might like bad design doesn’t make it good. Just like if you like bad music it doesn’t make it good.

I don’t think Anet thinks they went against those principles. I think you do. That IS subjective.

No, it’s objective. You just refuse to see it or admit it.

I’m surprised you can even spell objective. I’m saying I played Guild Wars 1 for five years, so I must have liked it. You don’t play a game for five years if you don’t like it..at least most people don’t.

But just because I see kittens in the armor of an old game, doesn’t mean I didn’t like it. And if you can’t see that objectively you’re not being objective.

Sorry, but I think there are fundamental things that make games good and bad, just like music. Saying you like it and that it is subjective tiptoes around that argument. Ultimately, that is what I seek to discuss. However, you always say your opinion is right, so I am just going to say that it isn’t until you would like to discuss things as to why the actual mechanics of a game may or may not be good.

For example, simply saying that gear progression is good because people like it, blindly ignores the fact that logically, it makes no sense. There is nothing you can say about a gear progression that is going to make it objectively be better other than because it is a cheap and lazy alternative to making content better.

So, just like you said you play devil’s advocate to all of the GW2 dissenters, I will continue to be the antithesis to anything you say.

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

Don’t you see that putting in a band aid fix instead of fixing the core problem is the root of laziness? What you described is a clear example of being too lazy to make something better. You would think in the 5+ years of making this game, they could have done something better. I thought they didn’t want us to “kill 10 wolves or gather 5 plants”. FedEx quests are still FedEx quests, except the start and finish are in the same spot, and instead of taking to someone, it just pops up in your screen like your character is some clairvoyant that just happens to know someone needs 10 Orc pelts… Ya, that’s not lazy…

And you refuse to see that better is in the eye of the beholder. What’s better to one person is not better to the other. I think you’ll find that my better and your better are completely different betters.

So you talk about lazy design. What if they designed something brilliant and I hated it, or you hated it. It’s just not as simple as you make it out to be. The hearts do PRECISELY what they were meant to do. You know the KISS principle, right? Keep it simple, stupid.

The reason a lot of designs fail is because they’re overly complicated. Anet found a problem in their system and they fixed it. It’s not lazy design just because you don’t like it.

When you design something to go against the principles you founded the game on, because it’s an easy fix – that’s lazy. Not only that, it’s insulting to your customer base.

There’s nothing subjective about it. Just because you might like bad design doesn’t make it good. Just like if you like bad music it doesn’t make it good.

I don’t think Anet thinks they went against those principles. I think you do. That IS subjective.

No, it’s objective. You just refuse to see it or admit it.

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

Don’t you see that putting in a band aid fix instead of fixing the core problem is the root of laziness? What you described is a clear example of being too lazy to make something better. You would think in the 5+ years of making this game, they could have done something better. I thought they didn’t want us to “kill 10 wolves or gather 5 plants”. FedEx quests are still FedEx quests, except the start and finish are in the same spot, and instead of taking to someone, it just pops up in your screen like your character is some clairvoyant that just happens to know someone needs 10 Orc pelts… Ya, that’s not lazy…

And you refuse to see that better is in the eye of the beholder. What’s better to one person is not better to the other. I think you’ll find that my better and your better are completely different betters.

So you talk about lazy design. What if they designed something brilliant and I hated it, or you hated it. It’s just not as simple as you make it out to be. The hearts do PRECISELY what they were meant to do. You know the KISS principle, right? Keep it simple, stupid.

The reason a lot of designs fail is because they’re overly complicated. Anet found a problem in their system and they fixed it. It’s not lazy design just because you don’t like it.

When you design something to go against the principles you founded the game on, because it’s an easy fix – that’s lazy. Not only that, it’s insulting to your customer base.

There’s nothing subjective about it. Just because you might like bad design doesn’t make it good. Just like if you like bad music it doesn’t make it good.

Why is combat bad? Maybe it’s because you can go through the entire game just using the 1 skill? If there is no reason to use other skills, then what’s the poin of having other skills, everything about the combat in this game is dumbed down and simple.

Don’t you see that putting in a band aid fix instead of fixing the core problem is the root of laziness? What you described is a clear example of being too lazy to make something better. You would think in the 5+ years of making this game, they could have done something better. I thought they didn’t want us to “kill 10 wolves or gather 5 plants”. FedEx quests are still FedEx quests, except the start and finish are in the same spot, and instead of taking to someone, it just pops up in your screen like your character is some clairvoyant that just happens to know someone needs 10 Orc pelts… Ya, that’s not lazy…

Vayne.8563:

Rizzy.8293:

Ultimatums are not answers.

But we all require different answers. I’m willing to wager most of the things that I care about aren’t most of the things that most other people care about. Some people say the ranger is irreparably broken but there are people in my guild who love their rangers.

Some people say that we shouldn’t have any gear progression at all, it should just be cosmetic, but just as many people, possibly more, say that we should have more gear progression, more stuff to do at level 80.

Some people say there should be harder/more challenging dungeons, while other people say dungeons are too hard as they are.

It’s easy to ask for solutions, but I don’t think we all require the same things from a game.

Which is why developers should make a decisions about what kind of game they are going to make. Also, gear treadmill is lazy design. Plain and simple.

The reason people get to attached to specific MMO’s is simple: they are the most social type of game available. There is no other game type that allows you to interact with other people and make friends in a virtual world whole having fun doing so, at the MMO level. It’s quite simple really.

Vayne.8563:

RebelYell.7132:

World PvE has been rewarding for me playing it as a duo. Having that much more DPS/boons/aggro division increases the sorts of risks we can take.

It’s a shame there are some anti-party mechanics in world PvE such renown hearts. I still wonder why they included those. They’re so counterintuitive to the dynamic world idea.

The included hearts specifically to slow people down, so they’d be where dynamic events spawn. That’s why you can’t do them faster…except sometimes you can.

There are hearts that interacting with an inanimate object spawns some sort of creature. If you activate that object, you can only do it once. Then you kill the creature. With two people doing it, you each activate it, so you get two kills instead of one, increasing the heart completion by about 30% time. It’s not as fast as other stuff, but it’s faster than soloing.

Lazy design is lazy design. Same with the 15 different currencies. And balance issues. And, well, most of the game.

Geotherma.2395:

clay.7849:

Geotherma.2395:

clay.7849:

Geotherma.2395:

And an aside- For a “bad game” that has become the fastest selling MMO of all time, it isn’t doing too bad. Even if “some” people consider it a WoW clone.

Still, for all the people that said they needed to make it less like GW1 to really be profitable, it hasn’t been as profitable as the entire GW1 franchise yet. So, until then…

Comparing a 7 year old game to a 7 month ish old game is a little silly though, can’t you agree?

Not really, considering the fact that every GW2 apologist makes the argument that a game like GW1 wouldn’t be able to survive in today’s market. Seems like just as silly of a statement to me.

Sorry, you are having decent discourse and I’m really acting like the jerk here. Please forgive me. I just think that the whole things is silly. GW1 wasn’t even an MMO and yet, they made GW2 more like the traditional MMO and less like the exciting, team oriented combat game that GW1 was and excelled at. If the two were even close to being similar, I would be fine. But, they aren’t, and I feel duped as a consumer. That is all.

I completely understand. I’m by no means some white knight or fan boy saying they are the best thing evarr. I believe publishers take much away from developers and designers, one of the worst of those things is “time”. But now it is too late to shut down and rework concepts that didn’t work well. And the game is already made, so instead of installing within the game they are forced to add on top. One thing i often wonder is how different this game would be had Arenanet have gotten the 60+m to create it solely by themselves without the restrictions of a big wig publisher.

I agree. I think NCSoft did a lot to ruin this game’s potential. I just look at things like today’s patch and wonder, “why?” Anyways, I’m done ranting. Please go about the thread as normal.

Suddenflame.2601:

clay.7849:

Suddenflame.2601:

clay.7849:

Geotherma.2395:

clay.7849:

Geotherma.2395:

And an aside- For a “bad game” that has become the fastest selling MMO of all time, it isn’t doing too bad. Even if “some” people consider it a WoW clone.

Still, for all the people that said they needed to make it less like GW1 to really be profitable, it hasn’t been as profitable as the entire GW1 franchise yet. So, until then…

Comparing a 7 year old game to a 7 month ish old game is a little silly though, can’t you agree?

Not really, considering the fact that every GW2 apologist makes the argument that a game like GW1 wouldn’t be able to survive in today’s market. Seems like just as silly of a statement to me.

Sorry, you are having decent discourse and I’m really acting like the jerk here. Please forgive me. I just think that the whole things is silly. GW1 wasn’t even an MMO and yet, they made GW2 more like the traditional MMO and less like the exciting, team oriented combat game that GW1 was and excelled at. If the two were even close to being similar, I would be fine. But, they aren’t, and I feel duped as a consumer. That is all.

They didn’t state anywhere that it was going to be a team oriented game. They did state however that it was going to be more solo oriented. Based on that statement alone you should realize that it is not going to be the same as GW1. Humans tend to blame others when in reality it is themselves that caused it. You duped yourself into thinking that game is something when it is clearly not.

Sorry, I guess I don’t just gobble up everything that the devs say, I bought the game on the premise it would be even a sliver like GW1. Hell, the only thing I remember is the manifesto… If you love GW1 yadda yadda.

Also, I thought this was an MMO. If they wanted to make a single player game, they could have made GW2 The Single Player Game.

Yes, I duped myself into thinking that the sequel to a game with the same name would be similar to that game. You’re right. Instead, I got suckered in by the cash grab from NCSoft.

Cash grab? At what point must you spend money other then the purchase to actually play? GW1 is not considered an MMO while GW2 is. Your definition of MMO is flawed a bit. Another aspect that your forgetting how long was it before many of the features in GW1 were actually put into the game. Far as I am aware many of the features did not exist for a long period of time after launch. You can not think a game will have all its end game features at the start of the game.

Um, that’s what I said. GW1 wasn’t even an MMO, yet here we are, GW2 is an MMO. Not even the same kind of game. Also, the cash grab is the purchase of the game silly. The whole reason this game sold anything near what it did was because of GW1’s success.

And, I don’t know what features you’re talking about with GW1, but I’m pretty sure the skill system, the classes and the missions were in place in Prophecies at launch. Don’t quote me on that, I may have to do some research first. Oh, and I think Tombs, RA and GvG were available too. Of course, this is all considering that GW1 didn’t have year and years of development under their belt after making an already successful game. So, yea, I think I can be critical of that too. FoW and UW were in GW1 at launch as well, right? I mean, I played those for years after the other expansions they were that good.

So far, I fail to see any real point you are making here, please help me.

Suddenflame.2601:

clay.7849:

Geotherma.2395:

clay.7849:

Geotherma.2395:

And an aside- For a “bad game” that has become the fastest selling MMO of all time, it isn’t doing too bad. Even if “some” people consider it a WoW clone.

Still, for all the people that said they needed to make it less like GW1 to really be profitable, it hasn’t been as profitable as the entire GW1 franchise yet. So, until then…

Comparing a 7 year old game to a 7 month ish old game is a little silly though, can’t you agree?

Not really, considering the fact that every GW2 apologist makes the argument that a game like GW1 wouldn’t be able to survive in today’s market. Seems like just as silly of a statement to me.

Sorry, you are having decent discourse and I’m really acting like the jerk here. Please forgive me. I just think that the whole things is silly. GW1 wasn’t even an MMO and yet, they made GW2 more like the traditional MMO and less like the exciting, team oriented combat game that GW1 was and excelled at. If the two were even close to being similar, I would be fine. But, they aren’t, and I feel duped as a consumer. That is all.

They didn’t state anywhere that it was going to be a team oriented game. They did state however that it was going to be more solo oriented. Based on that statement alone you should realize that it is not going to be the same as GW1. Humans tend to blame others when in reality it is themselves that caused it. You duped yourself into thinking that game is something when it is clearly not.

Sorry, I guess I don’t just gobble up everything that the devs say, I bought the game on the premise it would be even a sliver like GW1. Hell, the only thing I remember is the manifesto… If you love GW1 yadda yadda.

Also, I thought this was an MMO. If they wanted to make a single player game, they could have made GW2 The Single Player Game.

Yes, I duped myself into thinking that the sequel to a game with the same name would be similar to that game. You’re right. Instead, I got suckered in by the cash grab from NCSoft.

Geotherma.2395:

clay.7849:

Geotherma.2395:

And an aside- For a “bad game” that has become the fastest selling MMO of all time, it isn’t doing too bad. Even if “some” people consider it a WoW clone.

Still, for all the people that said they needed to make it less like GW1 to really be profitable, it hasn’t been as profitable as the entire GW1 franchise yet. So, until then…

Comparing a 7 year old game to a 7 month ish old game is a little silly though, can’t you agree?

Not really, considering the fact that every GW2 apologist makes the argument that a game like GW1 wouldn’t be able to survive in today’s market. Seems like just as silly of a statement to me.

Sorry, you are having decent discourse and I’m really acting like the jerk here. Please forgive me. I just think that the whole things is silly. GW1 wasn’t even an MMO and yet, they made GW2 more like the traditional MMO and less like the exciting, team oriented combat game that GW1 was and excelled at. If the two were even close to being similar, I would be fine. But, they aren’t, and I feel duped as a consumer. That is all.

Geotherma.2395:

Neither game is perfect, all games have flaws, but to degrade the incredible steps forward Arenanet has made is just silly. And down right rude.

Except, they took a philosophy of change and innovation and went back on their word and took on a new philosophy of profit and poor design.

Geotherma.2395:

And an aside- For a “bad game” that has become the fastest selling MMO of all time, it isn’t doing too bad. Even if “some” people consider it a WoW clone.

Still, for all the people that said they needed to make it less like GW1 to really be profitable, it hasn’t been as profitable as the entire GW1 franchise yet. So, until then…

Geotherma.2395:

Would you apply this to anything else? Would you say Guild Wars 1 was named as such even though the fact is that many devs and designers had a part in World of Warcraft? They build up their name, they realized something worked and they continued on with it. This is a huge practice among publishers and develpers. often times publishers who even hear a dev mention “new idea” instantly dismiss it. Because they know what has sold is what should sell. Is this always true or good? Nope. It’s a great idea to step away from the norm and be different. Look at portal and some other niche type games. Look at it on paper and tell me that it sounded like a good idea. These people didn’t just profit, they excelled at what they had done. Plenty of other examples: Minecraft, the original Final Fantasy series, and so many more I’d actually have to look up. They (Arenanet) took a safe route but at the same time they learned from mistakes and fixed those. Then added their own finesse to the game and style.

Except that GW1 was a success and it was different. GW2 is just a really bad WoW clone with a couple new twists and really inferior content. Sadly, they took a step backwards, not forward.

Leo Paul.1659:

The thing I found the most annoying at the moment are guilds that require “24/7 representation” which ultimately detracts from the concept of multi-guilding altogether. I wish influence is shared equally among the guilds you have joined (probably scale the amount to minimize exploits) or something.

Just one more, of many, poorly implemented designs so that the game could be released in time to stop NCSoft’s plummeting stock prices.

Geotherma.2395:

Sicktanick.4369:

Lol what? Did you even play the first game? So you are basically saying they made a completely different game and slapped the guild wars title on it…..lol

Sounds like D3 and I hope it goes down that road lol

Devs have reiterated this point in post..after post.. after post…. It is from LORE.

Because to say otherwise would be to point out that guild are worthless in GW2. So, yea, they are covering their kitten

Face it, this game was made to capitalize on the success of GW1 and make some quick money. The only reason they kept the name was because the name would sell better than something different.

Lore really has nothing to do with it.

Vayne.8563:

And yes, the name Guild Wars was about a historic event called the Guild Wars, which left the human kingdoms so weakened that it allowed the charr to destroy Ascalon and march on the Southern kingdoms. If the Guild Wars hasn’t been fought, Adelburn would have allied with Kryta and the Charr would never have gotten anywhere.

Which you actually never hear about. The name originated with the first game, which was designed by a company called Arena Net and had PvP as the end game. The highest form of PvP was GvG or Guild vs. Guild. So, no matter what the devs say now to cover the fact that GvG is no longer a part of Guild Wars. Guild vs. Guild was a much larger part of Guild Wars 1 than any silly lore than was barely included in the game.

Logical always prevails Vayne.

And, yes, Guilds were a much bigger part of GW1 than they are in GW2.

In my opinion…

The game is fun, but not for long. The replay-ability factor for most persistent areas is low. WvW is the same map and same zerg every single week. PvP is atrocious.

Tons of potential, which is why we see tons of activity after every patch, and why SAB was such a refreshing addition to the game, but not enough to make the game for long.

And, instead of adding new and better content, or fixing balance, or fixing bugs, we continue to see new currencies and new gear that can only be obtained by repeating the same things over and over and over again. I’m sorry, but that approach to keeping players interested just isn’t going to work forever.

/End my opinion

Arcanorum Ignis.9218:

Dafomen.7892:

To make it short:
Apart from the lore and the music….what GW1 features were actually implemented in GW2?

None that come to mind.

Mike O’Brien lied to try and get the remaining GW1 players to get GW2.

Respect: -1000.

+1

If I could have one thing back, it would be the original classes and skills from Prophecies. Perhaps they could be tied to weapons just like the game now, so that people don’t make crappy builds, but the synergy from GW1 just isn’t anywhere to be found in GW2. And, no, bad combo fields and finishers don’t make up the difference. Hell, they aren’t even effective enough to gameplan around.

If I could have another thing back, it would be Random Arenas, Heroes Ascent and GvG (which would require guild halls). How we don’t have these things that were fundamental end game components of GW1, I don’t understand.

Last, if I could be greedy for a moment, I would ask for giant instances like UW and FoW back as well. A couple dungeons with 3-4 linear paths just doesn’t cut it in comparison.

Vayne.8563:

And your lack of understanding of the MMO industry remains a lack of understanding. Because you’ve played Guild Wars and Guild Wars 2. I should bow before your vast experience. You obviously know all about this stuff.

Every MMO slows stuff down, again, because every MMO depends on people to be out in the persistent world. Guild Wars 1 DID NOT depend on that. You had heroes. You could solo pretty much everything in the world, except for a couple of elite areas. There were no events, even in hard mode that you couldn’t h/h.

So you played Guild Wars and you come to Guild Wars 2, which is a true MMO with an open world, and you expect everything to be the same. It doesn’t really give you any credibility at all.

Every single MMO NEEDS to slow down people, until they can make enough content. And they can never make enough content because it’s faster to run content than it is to play through it.

That’s very basic logic.

Or, they could make content that is fun to repeat.

Just because bad mechanics exist in other games, doesn’t mean that they need to exist in new ones.

You do understand how innovation works right?

I must say Vayne, you really do use all of the arguments no matter how bad they are and cling to them like they mean something special. Just because MMO’s have done something in the past, doesn’t mean that it is good. It just means it has been done in the past.

Here is something for you from an actual developer, not some wanna be one like yourself.

Jeff Strain, co-founder of ANet, said in a 2008 keynote speech at a gaming convention:

“The truth is, I hope that I am completely ignorant about what kind of games we’ll be making in ten years, because I hope some hotshot kid comes out of nowhere and changes everything out from under us before then. If that doesn’t happen, we’ve all failed to embrace and protect the culture of innovation that made it possible for us to be here in the first place.”

Kinda kills your whole, let’s keep making MMO’s like the last one.

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

Karizee.8076:

clay.7849:

I’m not uptight at all. I could care less what the fanboys think. I just speak from the heart.

Also, I don’t log in for dailies, but so you deny people do? Do you deny that until recently, there were tons of people just going from boss to boss to collect gold chests?

I would be willing to bet we agree that isn’t the kind of activity that leads to long term investment in a game.

Oh, that’s right, who needs that! It is buy to play! ANet can’t lose!

If you think that’s all people are doing, you obviously haven’t looked at the WvW forums lately

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/wuvwuv

Or the 3 mil + dungeon & fractal groups that have formed on gw2lfg in the last couple months.

http://gw2lfg.com/

Or how ’bout a new forum that fairly exploded with hundreds of thousands of posts in 4 short days since they added the content.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/livingworld/sab

Or been in game to see the swarms of people in Diessa Plateau and Wayfarer Foothills for the Living Story.

Yes, of course people do dailies and kill World Bosses for rares but it’s very silly to say that’s all people do in the face of all the evidence to the contrary.

If you can quote where I said all people are doing that, I would appreciate it. Do you deny that there were overflow servers for nearly every world boss from people farming them?

C’mon now, I’m not making this stuff up. There are LOTS of people that play this game just for the rewards. Those people are going to realize that one day, the game they are playing isn’t fun for them. Not because the game isn’t fun, but because they are too tied up in the rewards to appreciate the game. Some will realize this and stay. Many more will leave. As newer titles are published, I would be willing to bet more leave than stay.

Pretty straight-forward logic.

What’s straight-forward logic? Saying that everyone who crowds into one area for a boss is only interested in that, and that’s all they do, and that they don’t enjoy other facets of the game? I’m interested in how that’s logical.

See I do the maw sometimes, or a dragon. Not my favorite part of the game by far, but I sometimes am there for them. But I’m still enjoying other parts of the game. I announce it in my guild when the maw is up and sometimes 10, 15 people show up to do it. But none of the people in my guild are following around events all day for loot. Not one. Know how I know?

Because that’s not what the guild is built on. We mostly enjoy open world content, but we also run fractals and dungeons, some WvW, some of us SPvP, but we’re definitely not just running around farming. There’s like two guys in the guild who will do content they don’t enjoy to get something. The rest of us just play the game.

So where is your logic exactly? Did you poll everyone waiting for each event?

So you deny that people only log on to get their dailies and log off? Or that people only logged on to farm boss chests and log off? Or that some people only play the game for the rewards and then those run out…. what?

I love how you are able to drill down to something so specific to try and prove that I’m wrong, when if you open your eyes, you would see that there are lots of people that play this game, not for the game, but for the reward. And, ANet encourages it.

How long can that last? Probably until the next MMO comes out…

But, I can’t wait to hear your rebuttal about how my thoughts are absurd and outlandish. Please, go ahead.

Karizee.8076:

clay.7849:

I’m not uptight at all. I could care less what the fanboys think. I just speak from the heart.

Also, I don’t log in for dailies, but so you deny people do? Do you deny that until recently, there were tons of people just going from boss to boss to collect gold chests?

I would be willing to bet we agree that isn’t the kind of activity that leads to long term investment in a game.

Oh, that’s right, who needs that! It is buy to play! ANet can’t lose!

If you think that’s all people are doing, you obviously haven’t looked at the WvW forums lately

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/wuvwuv

Or the 3 mil + dungeon & fractal groups that have formed on gw2lfg in the last couple months.

http://gw2lfg.com/

Or how ’bout a new forum that fairly exploded with hundreds of thousands of posts in 4 short days since they added the content.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/livingworld/sab

Or been in game to see the swarms of people in Diessa Plateau and Wayfarer Foothills for the Living Story.

Yes, of course people do dailies and kill World Bosses for rares but it’s very silly to say that’s all people do in the face of all the evidence to the contrary.

If you can quote where I said all people are doing that, I would appreciate it. Do you deny that there were overflow servers for nearly every world boss from people farming them?

C’mon now, I’m not making this stuff up. There are LOTS of people that play this game just for the rewards. Those people are going to realize that one day, the game they are playing isn’t fun for them. Not because the game isn’t fun, but because they are too tied up in the rewards to appreciate the game. Some will realize this and stay. Many more will leave. As newer titles are published, I would be willing to bet more leave than stay.

Pretty straight-forward logic.

Xia.3485:

clay.7849:

Unfortunately, before I hit send to Xia, I realized that it is best not to give my personal information to faceless trolls on the interwebz.

Smartest thing you posted all day.

And to answer you Heijincks, I’d have to call, talk to the person who holds the company position on the phone number and confirm with him that he’s the person behind the posts.

Then I could hear what his voice sounds like. I’m still betting golem.. or squeeky. I prefer squeeky, sounds cuter.

See Xia, you can make good jokes without resorting to the low blows you typically go for. That one actually made me laugh out loud. Good night princess.

Heijincks.9267:

clay.7849:

Heijincks.9267:

Victory.2879:

Mushrooms.6158:

In regards to SAB:

I don’t understand why people feel all content has to cater to them. If you don’t like the super adventure box, relax because some people do. It is hardly something forced on you – doing it or not has no real impact on other gameplay.

Arenanet has said that a team of eight was working on it, and a team of three was all that was there most of the time. For those who can’t do math, they have a staff of 300, so three means that for a large portion of time, /literally/ only 1% of the staff was involved.

That was between 3 and 8 devs that could have been working on wvw issues that weren’t out of a total dev team of how many? If 300 is the total staff of ANet, then let’s assume devs make up 20% of that total (not unreasonable, in fact probably way too high), that’s 60 people. Then assume 30 of them work on other games, that leaves 30 working on GW2.

So 10-25% of the GW2 dev team worked on this latest jump puzzle, not the 1% that you try to make it sound like.

With so many ‘live’ issues this time and resources could have been better spent elsewhere on the game.

We keep getting Jump Puzzle 2 additions every time but it took 8 months or so to fix culling (probably because out of the finite resources it was low down the list, just after ‘make 20 more jump puzzles’).

SAB is the ‘new’ content for April, it’s not an April Fool’s joke unless you assume that the joke is squarely aimed at the players as the mental age required to play the new SAB is four- as my neighbour’s 4 year old is proving to him every day. April Fool’s jokes are meant to only be on the morning of April 1st, not last a month.

You really want to make SAB look like a huge project, don’t you? You really want to make Anet look like they want to prioritize SAB over everything else.

But for what reason?

Well, it’s pretty easy to see that SAB was the best content they have put out in months. Not sure what that means, but it factors in somewhere.

It could have been a coincidence. SAB isn’t something that you’d expect from a game like GW2.

Actually, it is exactly what I would expect from the old ANet development team. But not from GW2.

Heijincks.9267:

clay.7849:

Heijincks.9267:

clay.7849:

Xia.3485:

clay.7849:

So, keep getting upset about it. Keep telling me that I’m crazy. I don’t care, but the only reason you keep posting is because clearly you do. You can say I amuse you all you want, but your posts are usually nothing but really bad attempts to put me down rather than anything constructive. That is the sign that you care.

Actually you’re the one who took us off topic, yet again. I’ll admit one thing though, the reason I’m posting isn’t because you’re views have any weight to them. Its more because you’re condescending, overly emotional and unbelievably biased and I just love poking fanboys with a stick. I know its not very nice, sorry about that. I just can’t help it in your case.

The fact you actually had to lie about your profession to help “prove your point” was pure gold. Anyway, if you insist on going into tangents and off topic posts with me, lets take this over to personal messages.

If you insist on posting here, at least answer my questions or comment on my views of dungeon token DR, why it was invent, how it affects the game play and the economy.

I thought the OT was GW2 best game ever played.

And, if you want proof of my job, hit me up in game. I’ll give you the number to my business.

It’s amazing how much I must reflect yourself back to you.

To be fair, anybody could just grab a telephone book and give someone a number from it. You might as well give your name and association along with it.

So, if that number belongs to a legitimate business it could all be fake? Your logic is about on par with Xia’s.

Nobody said it had to be fake. I’m pretty sure all numbers in a telephone book are real. I mean if I gave someone a number to Pizza Hut which I dug out of a telephone book, does that mean it’s fake?

You do realize that calling it and confirming is part of the whole process right?

Heijincks.9267:

clay.7849:

Xia.3485:

clay.7849:

So, keep getting upset about it. Keep telling me that I’m crazy. I don’t care, but the only reason you keep posting is because clearly you do. You can say I amuse you all you want, but your posts are usually nothing but really bad attempts to put me down rather than anything constructive. That is the sign that you care.

Actually you’re the one who took us off topic, yet again. I’ll admit one thing though, the reason I’m posting isn’t because you’re views have any weight to them. Its more because you’re condescending, overly emotional and unbelievably biased and I just love poking fanboys with a stick. I know its not very nice, sorry about that. I just can’t help it in your case.

The fact you actually had to lie about your profession to help “prove your point” was pure gold. Anyway, if you insist on going into tangents and off topic posts with me, lets take this over to personal messages.

If you insist on posting here, at least answer my questions or comment on my views of dungeon token DR, why it was invent, how it affects the game play and the economy.

I thought the OT was GW2 best game ever played.

And, if you want proof of my job, hit me up in game. I’ll give you the number to my business.

It’s amazing how much I must reflect yourself back to you.

To be fair, anybody could just grab a telephone book and give someone a number from it. You might as well give your name and association along with it.

So, if that number belongs to a legitimate business it could all be fake? Your logic is about on par with Xia’s.

Heijincks.9267:

Victory.2879:

Mushrooms.6158:

In regards to SAB:

I don’t understand why people feel all content has to cater to them. If you don’t like the super adventure box, relax because some people do. It is hardly something forced on you – doing it or not has no real impact on other gameplay.

Arenanet has said that a team of eight was working on it, and a team of three was all that was there most of the time. For those who can’t do math, they have a staff of 300, so three means that for a large portion of time, /literally/ only 1% of the staff was involved.

That was between 3 and 8 devs that could have been working on wvw issues that weren’t out of a total dev team of how many? If 300 is the total staff of ANet, then let’s assume devs make up 20% of that total (not unreasonable, in fact probably way too high), that’s 60 people. Then assume 30 of them work on other games, that leaves 30 working on GW2.

So 10-25% of the GW2 dev team worked on this latest jump puzzle, not the 1% that you try to make it sound like.

With so many ‘live’ issues this time and resources could have been better spent elsewhere on the game.

We keep getting Jump Puzzle 2 additions every time but it took 8 months or so to fix culling (probably because out of the finite resources it was low down the list, just after ‘make 20 more jump puzzles’).

SAB is the ‘new’ content for April, it’s not an April Fool’s joke unless you assume that the joke is squarely aimed at the players as the mental age required to play the new SAB is four- as my neighbour’s 4 year old is proving to him every day. April Fool’s jokes are meant to only be on the morning of April 1st, not last a month.

You really want to make SAB look like a huge project, don’t you? You really want to make Anet look like they want to prioritize SAB over everything else.

But for what reason?

Well, it’s pretty easy to see that SAB was the best content they have put out in months. Not sure what that means, but it factors in somewhere.

Xia.3485:

clay.7849:

So, keep getting upset about it. Keep telling me that I’m crazy. I don’t care, but the only reason you keep posting is because clearly you do. You can say I amuse you all you want, but your posts are usually nothing but really bad attempts to put me down rather than anything constructive. That is the sign that you care.

Actually you’re the one who took us off topic, yet again. I’ll admit one thing though, the reason I’m posting isn’t because you’re views have any weight to them. Its more because you’re condescending, overly emotional and unbelievably biased and I just love poking fanboys with a stick. I know its not very nice, sorry about that. I just can’t help it in your case.

The fact you actually had to lie about your profession to help “prove your point” was pure gold. Anyway, if you insist on going into tangents and off topic posts with me, lets take this over to personal messages.

If you insist on posting here, at least answer my questions or comment on my views of dungeon token DR, why it was invent, how it affects the game play and the economy.

I thought the OT was GW2 best game ever played.

And, if you want proof of my job, hit me up in game. I’ll give you the number to my business.

It’s amazing how much I must reflect yourself back to you.

Xia.3485:

clay.7849:

You make me laugh. There is nothing extreme about my conclusions. You just don’t like them and it makes you angry. Seriously, seek counseling bro.

No no, you don’t have extreme conclusion. You extrapolate small pieces of information you chose to obsess over like golum and his ring. You caress them and push them and stretch them and talk to them and twist them into something else. I can hear you, in the corner of a dark room typing away.. “precious… they wants to takes my precious”. And then you come to an erroneous conclusion because of your ring, err, your twisted facts blown out of proportions.

Its not a pretty sight you know, how bitter you are that GW2 isn’t exactly like GW1. Or perhaps exactly like your memories of GW1. That feeling of betrayal and how arenanet lied to you and forced out the other two founders or whatever your spiel was. Not a healthy thing, you should look into that.

Oh, Xia. Yes, I extrapolate that GW2 isn’t better than any of the other failed MMO’s and you take it to heart. That’s not really anything surprising. Guess what, just because you like GW2 doesn’t mean it is going to do any better than any other MMO. And, if you haven’t noticed, MMO’s doing well is the exception, not the rule.

Sure, tell me 3 million bought the game. Whoopie! Doesn’t mean anything.

So, keep getting upset about it. Keep telling me that I’m crazy. I don’t care, but the only reason you keep posting is because clearly you do. You can say I amuse you all you want, but your posts are usually nothing but really bad attempts to put me down rather than anything constructive. That is the sign that you care.

Xia.3485:

clay.7849:

I got a good one that will get everyone uptight again.

What happens when all the people that just log in for dailies, or boss chests, or CoF runs suddenly realize that the way they are playing the game isn’t fun and decide to quit when another MMO comes out?

Lots of people out there just doing those things…

If that is how someone is playing its in their best interest to re-evaluate how they spend their time. And I’m not just talking about switching MMOs… there’s more to life than your computer.

You’re the only one uptight here clay… and if you’re only loging in for dailys may I suggest bioshock infinite?

I’m not uptight at all. I could care less what the fanboys think. I just speak from the heart.

Also, I don’t log in for dailies, but so you deny people do? Do you deny that until recently, there were tons of people just going from boss to boss to collect gold chests?

I would be willing to bet we agree that isn’t the kind of activity that leads to long term investment in a game.

Oh, that’s right, who needs that! It is buy to play! ANet can’t lose!

Xia.3485:

clay.7849:

But I thought all that didn’t matter because once they bought the game, ANet got your money and longevity wasn’t important to the non sub model?

Still bitter about the other thread eh.. You know quite well that concurrent players helps draw in more players, or keep them at any rate. You’ve said as much before.

So now, I’m right? I don’t get it, I’m right when it’s ok for your argument, but not when it’s ok for mine.

Typical.

I got a good one that will get everyone uptight again.

What happens when all the people that just log in for dailies, or boss chests, or CoF runs suddenly realize that the way they are playing the game isn’t fun and decide to quit when another MMO comes out?

Lots of people out there just doing those things…

Xia.3485:

killcannon.2576:

DR was incorporated into the game because of Bots, not farmers.

Until you realize they were talking about dungeon tokens. Bots run dungeons now?

Have you seen the profits on dungeon trinkets?

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

The only problem with DR is the dungeon tokens. That is a bit ridiculous IMO.

Every MMO has ways of slowing down progression. Ridiculous or not, there are reasons for it.

Let’s say someone could get the armor he wanted from a dungeon in one single sitting. So he goes, does it, gets the armor, decides he’s finished with the game and that’s that. It happens all the time.

There’s no game in existence that can keep up with content locusts. So game companies slow down progress by time-gating things. That’s why many MMOs have raid lockouts. You can’t finish a raid and do the same raid in the same week.

In a very real sense, this is actually done for the playerbase, not against it. People want everything fast, until they realize once they have everything, they’re done with the game.

But I thought all that didn’t matter because once they bought the game, ANet got your money and longevity wasn’t important to the non sub model?

Also, GW1 didn’t have that problem. Maybe it’s because they didn’t have the developer imposed grind of needing to do X dungeon runs to get Y, etc, etc…

The whole, other MMO’s do it is such a bad point. Let’s go back to grade school and use what your mother would have told you: if your friend Jimmy decided to jump off a bridge should you follow him? Or, two wrongs don’t make a right.

That’s right, just because other MMO’s do something badly doesn’t mean GW2 has to follow suit. Although, I guess I would say it goes deeper than dungeon DR. It has to do with the fact that a lot of this game is designed around grinding instances far too much to keep people playing as long as possible. Which, like you said, is why the DR exists. So people don’t stop playing once they get what they want. Sound like a great game mode. Don’t bother making a game people want to stick around to play, put in a mechanism to make them go slower…

The only problem with DR is the dungeon tokens. That is a bit ridiculous IMO.

AW Lore.5682:

Kichwas.7152:

clay.7849:

@Kia

Do you understand what ANet stood for when they made GW1? It is quite different than what they have become in GW2. So much so that 2 of the three founders an other key developers left the company.

This is why I, and many other GW1 players do not like GW2 and feel lied to.

Man it must suck when people at work get jobs elsewhere. The whole world comes crashing down.

They should be forced to work at the same company for at least 2 decades, because one decade and then leaving is an obvious sign that the company is a bunch of lying scoundrels.

;)

indeed, its not like one of them wanted to make a different game with something they loved and enjoyed like, say, creat a zombie focused game and mechanics

shame on people wanting to do different things, amirite?

Oh, do you know that person in real life? Was that their intention? Sure, that may be what they are doing now, but it may not be the reason they left. I’m sure you can see that there is a difference.

But, I understand I am preaching to the unreasonable fanboy crowd and as such I won’t get anywhere.

@Kichiwan

We’re not taking about employees getting jobs elsewhere, we’re taking about the founders of a company leaving over creative differences.

To everyone else: feel free to get upset and spew the normal venom of nonsensical garbage. Nothing I said is crazy or outrageous.

@Kia

Do you understand what ANet stood for when they made GW1? It is quite different than what they have become in GW2. So much so that 2 of the three founders an other key developers left the company.

This is why I, and many other GW1 players do not like GW2 and feel lied to.

No matter what you say, the philosophy of the two games are quite different.

Also, my reasoning for this game not achieving the goals supposedly set out for it, is that it has really fallen in to the same cycle of evey other MMO that has failed to achieve those goals as well. Sure, it may be different, but I see nothing yet to make me think it will. B2P or not has nothing to do with it.

I also realize that it I all my opinion and people believe things very differently. Just not think I’m one of only a few that feel the way I do. Just like I believe there are people that feel quite opposite like yourself and Vayne.

I despise the GW2 is dying thread as much as the GW2 is going to dominate everything threads. Why? Because the game is too young to tell anything. The initial sales figures have nothing to do with how good this game is. That was all marketing hype and last success from GW1.

You can argue with me all I want, but none of my opinions are all that controversial. They are just a difference of opinion.

GW2 is still the only other online RPG game I have ever played for any length of time, other than GW1.

Why, because the only other thing close to an MMO I’ve played was GW1 which actually had cooperation?

Ya, I guess you would be right about that. It’s funny how this game really doesn’t fit all these ideals you think it does.

Behellagh.1468:

clay.7849:

Heijincks.9267:

Fernling.1729:

NCsoft stock has significantly dropped since the release of GW2, that tells me that something isn’t doing too well.

NCSoft isn’t only about GW2. About the time when GW2 was released, City of Heroes was shut down and that had some serious backlash.

So you think that CoH’s revenue was a big enough loss to counter the massive amounts of money that GW2 made at release?

If anything CoH was shut down to help revenue, not to hurt it.

But, I agree as a publisher of games, and not the developer, GW2 is just a small part of the entire NCSoft company and as such NCSoft’s ability to be worth less than half of what it was a year and a half ago, may not have anything to do with GW2.

The gaming industry in general is down.

See my previous post in this thread.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Is-Guild-Wars-2-Doing-Well/1757784

Gotcha. Yes, I see your point now. Can’t say I disagree either.

@Vayne

So people being happy to see other players = cooperation?

Lmao… Ok.

Vayne.8563:

I actually go by what they say. They’ve said straight out that they’ve made a game that’s cooperative. They’ve tried to take out all the little selfish and griefing parts that other games have. Sometimes with mixed success, but it is what they’ve said, and there’s plenty of evidence to support where they’re going.

And yet, much of the game is solo-able. By design. That is kind of the antithesis of cooperative, or am I wrong?

They tried to take out the selfish parts? How? Where did they ever say that except in your head? Making rewards better than others is inherently creating selfish content. Why in God’s name do you think that people want gear grind so bad in MMO’s? It’s to measure their kitten with. That is selfish.

You keep saying their is all the evidence, but you rarely ever provide it. I wonder why that is…

Vayne.8563:

@Clay (I left out your response because the post is just too kitten long with it)

There was a thread on these forums, asking if Guild Wars 2 went pay to play would you still play. One of the most common responses to this was, if it was pay to play I wouldn’t have bought it in the first place. I find it naive to believe that everyone is willing to pay a monthly fee to play ANY game. That’s why MMOs in general, pay to play particularly, remain niche. Even WoW only has a relatively small percentage of all gamers, though it has a huge percentage of MMO gamers. Many many people will not pay a month fee to a game for a lot of reasons. Sometimes it’s principle, sometimes it’s financial. But at least anecdotally we see that many people are not willing to pay a monthly fee. That gives a game like Guild Wars 2 an audience of indeterminate size that WoW will never see. That means the pay to play model will get people that would never consider WoW and for those people, it’s not even competition. How many of these people exist? I don’t know. But I suspect it’s more than you give credit for.

You also say some people really like this game. You also say a lot of people don’t. How come the one that disagrees with you is only some and the ones that agree with you are many. Maybe that’s your own bias talking. It seems to me most people who play the game like it….and some don’t. The rating on meta critic and sites like that seem to show most people do like it, even after the people tried to sabotage it by giving it zeros after the ascended gear release.

I think you are like most people. You believe something, so you believe most people feel as you do. This is human nature. The more obvious you think something is, the more you’re sure you have the numbers. But it’s not true in every case, because there are people who feel just as strongly who are opposite you. They all can’t be right.

I think you find things to say that support your argument, most of which are guesses, too weak to be even speculation. Dismissing the buy to play model, for example, makes absolutely zero sense, until you can figure out what percentage of people would play an MMO but would never consider paying a monthly fee. And you have no evidence either way of how big a market that is.

Every time to you try to dismiss someone, the exact same thing you say can be applied to your post. Also, show me the numbers that definitively say that more people agree with you than me? Oh, that’s right, they don’t exist. Your opinion is no more valid than mine, no matter how hard you try to make it sound that way.

I just want to know what there is this big supposition that Buy to Play models can’t die?

That is all I asked and you couldn’t answer my simple question, because, I think, you don’t think there is an answer. So, let’s try again without all the rhetoric this time:

What is the threshold at which you would call a B2P game dying or dead?

@Xia

So, you think that a game without a subscription model can’t die? What would you count as a metric that would mean this game is dying or not?

Vayne.8563:

It was supposed to be a cooperative game, not a selfish one.

MMO’s are inherently selfish.

Also, this game is not supposed to be a cooperative game. That is evidenced by the fact that much of it is solo-able.

You try to speak for the developers in this game so much, yet I don’t think you are one. Why do you keep trying to poke around in their heads, saying what is and is not their intentions?

Jski.6180:

clay.7849:

Jski.6180:

clay.7849:

Jski.6180:

clay.7849:

Heijincks.9267:

clay.7849:

Behellagh.1468:

Gab Superstar.4059:

Commercially it is doing well.

But it had to sacrifice manifesto, the credibility of the developers, and the experience of the players to achieve it.

This is getting old. How did they sacrifice the manifesto?

Have you read it?

Whether they sacrificed the manifesto or not depends on the person. The topic at hand whether or not they did is the grind. Some people might consider getting exotics itself a grind (and a gear treadmill at that), and from the very start even before ascended the manifesto was broken already.

Well, here is my take on the grind thing. I get that you don’t need anything that is “grind-able” and that it doesn’t gate content – so that’s fine. Although, there is a lot of repetition to get items that is built into the game, which is kind of what a grind is.

Really, I could care less about the grind thing.

My take on the manifesto is that this game is nothing like GW1, and they clearly said if you loved GW1 you would love GW2. I think we can safely assume that when they wrote that they meant it. However, what they ended up with has alienated pretty much every GW1 player I know.

Yes YOUR take is this but not every one thinks the same way as you do. Most of the players who loved GW1 DO like GW2 but most player of GW1 often would stop playing GW1 for long bits of time waiting for expansion to add in new content so from the very start the GW1 player base was a non consistent group.

You may be right for a lot of people, but I can safely say that I am right when it comes to competitive PvP players.

Well when was the last time PvP from GW1 was big? When GW1 was out having a big PvP group there where not that many major PvP games out there. Now with GW2 there is a lot of PvP games all for free. You also now have a steaming community “MLG” etc.. would GW1 PvP hold any thing to that?

That is circumventing the argument. I said that the manifesto, as it relates to the PvP community and their ability to find the things they loved about GW1 in GW2, did not uphold its end of the bargain.

This is a fact. sPvP in this game is a joke.

I could care less about the grinding. I can see it from both views. Similarly, the PvE in GW2 is rather good, although the combat has been a bit of a sour point for some.

Compared to what PvP games we have now GW1 PvP was a joke. I am saying that your missing context to your views. Just because you may remember something the way it was dose not mean it was the truth of what was going on (i am calling this the “good old days” trap) at the time GW1 PvP was big because there was no major PvP game out during its time. If GW1 PvP was truly grate it would of been part of the streaming community even to this day. Can you find some one streaming GW1 PvP any more are there ppl even playing it? GW2 may not have the best PvP content in compassion to other current PvP games but its still being worked on so it can hit the standers of streaming (MLG etc..).

Again, you seem to be missing the point that what you are saying, whether true or not, has nothing to do with the question of the manifesto.

Also, I highly doubt you played competitive PvP in GW1.

Jski.6180:

clay.7849:

Jski.6180:

clay.7849:

Heijincks.9267:

clay.7849:

Behellagh.1468:

Gab Superstar.4059:

Commercially it is doing well.

But it had to sacrifice manifesto, the credibility of the developers, and the experience of the players to achieve it.

This is getting old. How did they sacrifice the manifesto?

Have you read it?

Whether they sacrificed the manifesto or not depends on the person. The topic at hand whether or not they did is the grind. Some people might consider getting exotics itself a grind (and a gear treadmill at that), and from the very start even before ascended the manifesto was broken already.

Well, here is my take on the grind thing. I get that you don’t need anything that is “grind-able” and that it doesn’t gate content – so that’s fine. Although, there is a lot of repetition to get items that is built into the game, which is kind of what a grind is.

Really, I could care less about the grind thing.

My take on the manifesto is that this game is nothing like GW1, and they clearly said if you loved GW1 you would love GW2. I think we can safely assume that when they wrote that they meant it. However, what they ended up with has alienated pretty much every GW1 player I know.

Yes YOUR take is this but not every one thinks the same way as you do. Most of the players who loved GW1 DO like GW2 but most player of GW1 often would stop playing GW1 for long bits of time waiting for expansion to add in new content so from the very start the GW1 player base was a non consistent group.

You may be right for a lot of people, but I can safely say that I am right when it comes to competitive PvP players.

Well when was the last time PvP from GW1 was big? When GW1 was out having a big PvP group there where not that many major PvP games out there. Now with GW2 there is a lot of PvP games all for free. You also now have a steaming community “MLG” etc.. would GW1 PvP hold any thing to that?

That is circumventing the argument. I said that the manifesto, as it relates to the PvP community and their ability to find the things they loved about GW1 in GW2, did not uphold its end of the bargain.

This is a fact. sPvP in this game is a joke.

I could care less about the grinding. I can see it from both views. Similarly, the PvE in GW2 is rather good, although the combat has been a bit of a sour point for some.