Guild Wars 2

Kal Spiro.9745:

clay.7849:

Not me. I tend to cut my losses quickly. I bought GW2 on the fact that GW1 pre-Nightfall was one of the best games I have ever played. Unfortunately, GW2 went a different direction. And, in the search for why I didn’t like GW2, I found that there is a wealth of knowledge out there about game design – and particularly things that addressed what I felt. It’s funny how I didn’t know anything about games when I first started playing GW2, but I have had the enjoyment of learning a lot about myself and what it is I like in games. Funny enough, I found that I’m not alone. A lot of what I feel is lacking in GW2 is actually things that are important to making good games. So, now I just have fun posting on the forums since there isn’t much to divert my attention these days. I’m sure something will come along eventually. It most certainly won’t be an MMO however. I am convinced that MMO’s in general do not have the ability to be really good games for a number of reasons. Hence, why they pretty much all have been lackluster – even the king of them all – WoW.

This right here seems like the most pertinent thing you’ve posted yet, from what I’ve read. One thing is your love of GW1, which was never what they were intending to make with GW2. I for one can’t stand the game. I’m trying very hard, because I want the Hall of Monuments things, but it’s just so difficult to suffer through it. The game itself is increadibly easy, in my opinion, it’s just not very well made.

The other important thing is your apparent failing realization that you can’t judge a single player or even multiplayer game by the same standards as an MMO. They are wholey different genres and game designs. If your expectations for a “good game” are based on how a single player game is designed, then of course you’re not going to find it in an MMO. That’s why when I said GW2 was designed well I qualified it by saying a well designed MMO. That’s what it is and as such that is how it has to be judged. They certainly can, however, be good games, even if they fall short of your expectations.

They can perhaps, be good games in the same way in which a good deli place has great sandwiches, but that no deli place will ever compare to say, the French Laundry or Morton’s Steakhouse.

Furthermore, you can’t compare GW1 today to GW1 during Prophecies and Factions. First, you are simply playing for GWAMM, which in itself is an unfulfilling grindy reason to play a game. Second, you are playing way past its prime. The game has changed significantly since its glory days, and not for the better.

I can’t step foot in GW1 any more. It is not the same game it was. However, that is not to say that it wasn’t a great game at one point. Many people believed that GW2 would build upon the good things GW1 did in its past – while incorporating all the new things that it deserved.

Unfortunately, the developers neither learned from the things that GW1 did well, nor did they really live up to the expectations they set forth with the things that were new to GW2, such as active combat, the living story, etc.

Of course, this is all just opinion, but if you look at the things that are widely regarded as good and bad game design, GW2 has a lot more bad game design than good.

This is great but, unfortunately, this is the kind of emergent behavior we get from a game with wasted potential because the developers take too long to implement something as easy as a duel system early on.

Of course, soon you will be able to duel – provided you pay the man for the privilege of using custom arenas.

Making gold in this game is actually quite easy. The problem is that there isn’t much fun stuff you can buy with said gold. Most of the best armor, weapons and trinkets are obtained not through gold, but through running predetermined dungeons and content for days on end in order to get enough tokens to buy what you want.

Also, as far as loot is concerned, there is very little interesting loot that drops. Rare items are usually just chests with random chances of salvaging for ecto. Exotics drop so infrequently that there is almost a 0% chance of getting one. And precursors are even worse.

If you want any cool gear in this game, be prepared to grind away at potentially mind numbingly boring content for days on end because DR (Diminishing Returns) kicks in which is a developer imposed mechanic that limits the amount of tokens you can farm in a day so as not to let you get toward your goal too quickly.

The simple answer for the OP is that if farming was easier, there would be less reason for players to use the cash shop.

No Vayne, yo’re pretty much blindly defend everything with GW2. It is a fact that ANet has banned many innocent people on many occasions in the name of botting. You just refuse to acknowledge it happens.

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

Flissy.4093:

Starter zones, especially Queensdale, are still buzzing.

High level zones, such as Cursed shore & Frostgorge sound, still fairly populated, mostly due to farming potential & large scale events.

Anywhere in the middle? Completely dead.

This. Starter zones are perhaps the only real populated places you will see anyone. Good luck anywhere else.

If you played the game, you’d know better. You have to excuse, Clay, OP. He feels betrayed by Anet, and he loved Guild Wars 1, and he feels let down, so a good portion of what he says is either opinion stated as fact, or completely unsubstantiated “facts” that have no actual bearing on what’s going on in game.

What’s flissy’s excuse? Everyone that wanders around in dead zones is just hallucinating?

knives.6345:

Elbegast.6970:

I hope you didn’t actually buy all those keys from the cash shop. There are children, cold and starving, living on a street near your home. That cash would have went a long way in their frayed, worn pockets.

It’s his/her money – he/she can spend it whatever way he/she wanted.

You’re right. Digital pixels are way more awesome then helping starving children anyways.

Flissy.4093:

Starter zones, especially Queensdale, are still buzzing.

High level zones, such as Cursed shore & Frostgorge sound, still fairly populated, mostly due to farming potential & large scale events.

Anywhere in the middle? Completely dead.

This. Starter zones are perhaps the only real populated places you will see anyone. Good luck anywhere else.

Considering the game was more balanced during beta than it is now is not a reassuring sign that the developers care to fix any balance issues. Even worse, their demeanor in the sPvP interviews shows their disdain for balance related issues, especially as it pertains to specific classes.

tigirius.9014:

I use avast as well and I can tell you it doesn’t find everything. I also use a secondary app called IObit malware fighter. What Avast doesn’t find it does and eliminates it. Advanced systemcare is the all in one app that is from the same company.

You got hacked most likely.

Except that I am pretty sure it is impossible to get hacked in this game unless there is a way to circumvent the IP change email thingy that GW2 has set up, which seems pretty doubtful.

Shootsfoot.9276:

clay.7849:

Shootsfoot.9276:

clay.7849:

Lol, I’d love to see how the naysayers in this thread would act if their stuff got taken, or worse yet, if they got robbed. I’m sure they would all be patient and understanding.

If you think running to the forums without any actual facts and complaining like a little crybaby is actually a mature way to handle things such as this, clay, well I’ve lost a lot of respect for you.

Did you ever have any? I think it is quite acceptable to point out that there is a very good chance that ANet, again, screwed someone out of their stuff in some convoluted anti-bot measure.

It doesn’t even matter if it will get resolved or not, it is ridiculous to be complacent with it happening to begin with.

If you get locked up in jail for something you didn’t do, would you not be upset? I understand it’s a game, but it is kind of the same thing.

Yeah, no, it’s not the same thing at all.

But nice try.

So, getting punished for something you didn’t do and getting punished for something you didn’t do is not the same at all. Funny, it seemed like it was both getting punished for something you didn’t do.

I realize the example is a bit extreme, but I’ll say it again, it is both getting punished for something you didn’t do.

So, care to point out how those things aren’t even remotely similar?

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

Lol, I’d love to see how the naysayers in this thread would act if their stuff got taken, or worse yet, if they got robbed. I’m sure they would all be patient and understanding.

It’s funny how you’re perfectly willing, without a shred of evidence, to believe what the OP said, because of your personal bias against the game.

Just saying.

No, I am willing to believe it because it has happened before. Maybe not like this, but ANet is quite vigilant against botters and gold sellers and have, on many occasions, made huge banning mistakes which targeted many innocent people.

To me, a company that makes these kinds of mistakes, also would make the mistake of what the OP suggests.

It is also true that ANet will take your items/gold from you if you are caught buying gold – as there was a post about it at some point which I refuse to dig up. So, the idea that ANet would take items from a players also is not something new.

So, no, none of this surprises me, and it has nothing to do with my “bias”.

GW2 is certainly not trash. It is however, poorly designed and fails to be really all that different than any other MMO that came before it. However, it does have the distinct advantage of being really one of only a few MMOs on the market that are currently being played by a decent population.

Kal Spiro.9745:

clay.7849:

In your opinion. Actually it’s quite the opposite, but I know you prefer the ad hominem approach. Anything other than blind fanboyism is hate mongering.

GW2 falls victim to so many bad habits that I think many fail to realize how poorly developed and lazy these habits are. It is quite apparent that people like bad games, bad movies, bad books, etc. However, there is always a generally accepted view of things that make these things better than others. You don’t have to agree with me, but there is no hate mongering here, just pointing out that GW2 actually embraces many of the things that are associated with lazy and poor game design.

I know you won’t agree, but it is true. Just because you like it doesn’t mean it is good, just like if you like soap operas or nickel back doesn’t make them good either.

Who get’s to define what is and isn’t good game design? How do you determine the amount of effort put in to classify it as lazy? What is an example of good game design that GW2 is failing, and who put in the effort to not be lazy?

If a book, or movie, or game is wildly successful, sells millions of copies, but everyone says it’s trash, is it actually trash? I mean, if it’s so bad why is it successful? Is it meaningful to say people like bad things, or simply that your tastes run contrary to popular opinion? Just because you dislike something doesn’t make it bad.

I’ve been playing MMOs since UO. I can’t play the biggest most successful MMO of all time for more than a week before I’m completely bored with it. The best MMO I ever played recently closed down forever, but I can say that this game is a very compitent and well designed MMO. It accomplishes what the Devs intended to accomplish with it. What it may not accomplish is what you wanted it to, but since it wasn’t made by you, nor with any significant input by you, that’s really not their fault.

And yet, there are clear examples of some books being better, some movies being better, some games being better, etc. etc. And, for the most part, psychologists, designers, etc. have found commonality between the things that are held in high esteem or have stood the test of time, to come to a conclusion as to what makes them better than other things.

So, yes, you can argue that you like trashy romance novels, but they aren’t really good – in the sense of comparing them, to say, Shakespeare.

Same thing with chess, you may not like it, but it has some inherent qualities that make it a good game that has been played for years.

I have tried to discuss these things with others, but the typical response is that if someone likes it, it must be good. If that is the way you prefer to live your life, that is fine. But, some of us, like to try and actually seek out what makes things better than others. In short, what makes them well designed, written, crafted, etc.

Here is a comparison – is McDonald’s good? Sure. Until you eat a steak at Ruth’s Chris. Then you realize that McDonald’s is ok, but not really good. Sure, it is cheap, convenient and sustaining, but it isn’t really terribly good. Although millions of people eat there.

GW2 is my McDonalds. It is cheap, convenient and sustaining as a game. It doesn’t particularly do anything better than any other MMO. Everything it did to try and be different or unique has pretty much fallen way short of its goal. Sure, it may get better, but who has time to wait for game developers to get their crap together – especially when the stuff you have seen them do isn’t all that exciting?

Not me. I tend to cut my losses quickly. I bought GW2 on the fact that GW1 pre-Nightfall was one of the best games I have ever played. Unfortunately, GW2 went a different direction. And, in the search for why I didn’t like GW2, I found that there is a wealth of knowledge out there about game design – and particularly things that addressed what I felt. It’s funny how I didn’t know anything about games when I first started playing GW2, but I have had the enjoyment of learning a lot about myself and what it is I like in games. Funny enough, I found that I’m not alone. A lot of what I feel is lacking in GW2 is actually things that are important to making good games. So, now I just have fun posting on the forums since there isn’t much to divert my attention these days. I’m sure something will come along eventually. It most certainly won’t be an MMO however. I am convinced that MMO’s in general do not have the ability to be really good games for a number of reasons. Hence, why they pretty much all have been lackluster – even the king of them all – WoW.

Shootsfoot.9276:

clay.7849:

Lol, I’d love to see how the naysayers in this thread would act if their stuff got taken, or worse yet, if they got robbed. I’m sure they would all be patient and understanding.

If you think running to the forums without any actual facts and complaining like a little crybaby is actually a mature way to handle things such as this, clay, well I’ve lost a lot of respect for you.

Did you ever have any? I think it is quite acceptable to point out that there is a very good chance that ANet, again, screwed someone out of their stuff in some convoluted anti-bot measure.

It doesn’t even matter if it will get resolved or not, it is ridiculous to be complacent with it happening to begin with.

If you get locked up in jail for something you didn’t do, would you not be upset? I understand it’s a game, but it is kind of the same thing.

Jski.6180:

clay.7849:

Jski.6180:

clay.7849:

Jski.6180:

@ clay.7849
Then it still has huge potential its just time your unwilling to give it.
And that what GW2 has a lot of because they do not charges ppl to play it.

No, it’s potential is gone because in the last 5+ months the changes are doing not much more than pushing people towards the cash shop. It is clear the developers intentions are maximizing profitability instead of making the game better.

No not at all we see good update for games that have been out for 2 years + that brings a lot of ppl back and these are games that are payed to play (ff11) this game is not pay to play its a buy once to play so there is always time for ppl to come back after they add in new things. Unless you think Anet going to give up the gaming business? Or is some very twisted logic your hoping they start working on GW1.5 or redo GW1 or even a GW3?

Side note i though you where playing neverwinter now is it that “good” that you have time to come on these forums to chat down GW2 and talk about all the evils of Anet?

Oh I find it entertaining to discuss the downfalls of GW2. Plus, I would hate for interested buyers to not get both sides of the story.

Sorry, does that bother you?

I think that the def of a hate monger. This is just a game and it will have its up and down but if your blind by your own views to the point of not being to see any one else is your no longer discussing any thing.

In your opinion. Actually it’s quite the opposite, but I know you prefer the ad hominem approach. Anything other than blind fanboyism is hate mongering.

GW2 falls victim to so many bad habits that I think many fail to realize how poorly developed and lazy these habits are. It is quite apparent that people like bad games, bad movies, bad books, etc. However, there is always a generally accepted view of things that make these things better than others. You don’t have to agree with me, but there is no hate mongering here, just pointing out that GW2 actually embraces many of the things that are associated with lazy and poor game design.

I know you won’t agree, but it is true. Just because you like it doesn’t mean it is good, just like if you like soap operas or nickel back doesn’t make them good either.

Lol, I’d love to see how the naysayers in this thread would act if their stuff got taken, or worse yet, if they got robbed. I’m sure they would all be patient and understanding.

raiden.9024:

Well unless they know his email and password how did they get past the “this is a new IP please confirm” I kno I get that email every few days when my isp resets it….

Exactly.

It wouldn’t be the first time ANet let their anti-farming/bottling efforts affect innocent people. In fact, it is quite common. Good luck getting your gear back.

Jski.6180:

clay.7849:

Jski.6180:

@ clay.7849
Then it still has huge potential its just time your unwilling to give it.
And that what GW2 has a lot of because they do not charges ppl to play it.

No, it’s potential is gone because in the last 5+ months the changes are doing not much more than pushing people towards the cash shop. It is clear the developers intentions are maximizing profitability instead of making the game better.

No not at all we see good update for games that have been out for 2 years + that brings a lot of ppl back and these are games that are payed to play (ff11) this game is not pay to play its a buy once to play so there is always time for ppl to come back after they add in new things. Unless you think Anet going to give up the gaming business? Or is some very twisted logic your hoping they start working on GW1.5 or redo GW1 or even a GW3?

Side note i though you where playing neverwinter now is it that “good” that you have time to come on these forums to chat down GW2 and talk about all the evils of Anet?

Oh I find it entertaining to discuss the downfalls of GW2. Plus, I would hate for interested buyers to not get both sides of the story.

Sorry, does that bother you?

Kichwas.7152:

clay.7849:

It is not uncommon for GW1 players to feel out of place in GW2. The lack of community, teamwork, interesting combat, meaningful PvP and PvE are pretty much the biggest detractors for GW1 fans.

I’ve got great community in GW2, but after about 2006 GW1 was a solo game with NO community at all for me.

I think it comes down to picking the right guild and realm. My guild has gotten a few recent members commenting that GW2 had no community and no group stuff for them, so they joined us. My guild is not the most active or social on my realm – but we have -enough-.

My GW1 guild, that I joined in 2005 – was a place of strangers to me. Especially after heroes came in, there was no reason to group, so no one did. Other guilds did not have this problem, but I never shopped around to find them…

But I recognize that this burden was on me, and wasn’t the game itself.

I agree completely. I left shortly after Nightfall because ANet slowly destroyed that game. When I refer to GW1 I should refer to it as pre-Nightfall GW1 so there is no confusion.

Perhaps there might be a good community in GW2 I missed, but I find there to be little teamwork in this game – rather teams are more of 5 solo players in the same spot, but rarely do they actually help each other like In GW1. Personally, it was that teamwork aspect that made the community in pre-Nightfall GW1 so good.

Jski.6180:

@ clay.7849
Then it still has huge potential its just time your unwilling to give it.
And that what GW2 has a lot of because they do not charges ppl to play it.

No, it’s potential is gone because in the last 5+ months the changes are doing not much more than pushing people towards the cash shop. It is clear the developers intentions are maximizing profitability instead of making the game better.

ArchonWing.9480:

The open world is too easy and not rewarding enough, leaving most of options of acquiring stuff to instances and laurel grinding, stuff that isn’t very casual friendly. The main source of challenge is the champion which has a terrible reward vs time spent ratio. So it can feel tedious.

The other problem is that dynamic events do not fire fast enough in most zones; they also do not get marked well on the map (only gets marked if you are closed). There needs to be an option to mark all events on your current map lest there be a lot of boring downtime.

IMO, the open world is the absolute, hands down, best part of this game. Unfortunately (at least on the server I played on) it is under-populated and poorly rewarded.

If ANet could find a way to get more people in the open world, even if it meant somehow consolidating all servers, it would be a HUGE step in the right direction.

Guns and Giblets.9308:

Jski.6180:

If it has “GW2 had a lot of potential.” then saying “Unfortunately, many of the flaws present in the fundamental mechanics are now so entrenched that it’s unlikely we’ll see the significant improvements necessary for this game to be anything more than just another average MMO.” comply contender your first statement or your first statement contradict the 2ed statement. It cant be both. Do you even understand what potential and fundamental means? If your going with the 2ed of your 2 part view point then what flaws are you talking about what fundamental mechanics? Its one thing to just general say “flawed fundamental mechanics” with out saying what your talking about but when you point to some things then we can see where your coming from.

Potential extends in many directions, including before fundamental mechanics were concretely designed, while fundamental mechanics doesn’t mean what you think it means. Instead of trying to discredit me by imputing definitions to my words that I don’t hold, why don’t you find out what I mean before passing judgment.

Now for a few of the problems. (TL;DR version below.)

Strategic Depth

I’ve talked about these before, as many others have. I’ve even seen you post in threads that discuss these issues. Here is one by Ensign, a highly respected GW1 player, that addresses the issue of strategic depth.

GW2 could have used the potential of its classes/system/world/lore to make this kind of strategically satisfying gameplay. Instead, it produced a boring combat system that is flawed in ways that seem exceptionally difficult to salvage—it would take a significant redesign of many (most? all?) skills and classes. How do you move from a damage/damage/damage based play to buff/debuff, condition/cleanse gameplay given the current class design, available skill sets and under designed abilities?

WvW

WvW had a lot of potential. It had the right idea, yet the implementation was poor, leading to stale, repetitive gameplay without strategic significance, meaningful rewards (the new skill system is a fine example of going in the wrong direction) or balanced play. I’m on Tarnished Coast, a second tier server, although these complaints have been leveled by others on various top servers. If the WvW gameplay isn’t satisfying near or at the top, something is fundamentally wrong with how it is designed. The potential was wasted, and what’s needed to change it would take a lot of work and effort—the kind ANet has expressed little to no interest in pursuing.

Crafting

Or consider crafting. People complain that you can’t make money with it. While they’re technically incorrect, the number of profitable crafting opportunities is very low. How could you make crafting both fun and meaningful in GW2? It’s another area of potential that was wasted and the kinds of changes necessary to make it meaningful seem almost impossible to do at this stage. You’d need to change large portions of the economy and add certain recipes to give people the necessary incentives to invest a lot of time and money into crafting.

Or, to use a main example from this thread, look at RNG. Consider what would be necessary to meaningfully improve this system!

ANet hasn’t done itself any favors either. For example, CoF1 is introducing a lot of new gold into the system, yet nerfing it would now cause the economy to crash, which is why I suspect they haven’t done it yet. They need to increase drop rates of key materials, but that also presents its own set of problems. It’s not clear they have a solid grasp on the direction they need to go to make substantial improvements to this game; instead, they produce mediocre fixes that merely exacerbate the situation.

GW2 has some phenomenal features. For example, the graphics are great. Dodging is a fun mechanic. Down leveling is genius. Some of the zones are gorgeous and a delight to explore. Yet key areas are sorely lacking, preventing long-term enjoyment of this game.

TL;DR version:

I hope I’m wrong. I’d love to come back in six months to a year and declare, “I was completely wrong, and I can’t wait to fire up this game and play it for years to come.” But hope is insufficient to overcome what seem to be serious deficiencies in game’s current state.

Exactly. Guild Wars HAD huge potential. Unfortunately, they never got implemented well. I seriously doubt that they ever will be – but apparently I am just not giving them enough time.

It is not uncommon for GW1 players to feel out of place in GW2. The lack of community, teamwork, interesting combat, meaningful PvP and PvE are pretty much the biggest detractors for GW1 fans. Not to mention the level and gear grind.

Despite the graphics, Neverwinter is probably a better sequel to GW1 than GW2 is as far as game play and mechanics are concerned.

Jski.6180:

If you just keep moving on to the next thing and never stay with any thing you will NEVER find the next best thing.

I lolled so hard at this contradiction.

Jski.6180:

clay.7849:

Jski.6180:

Rama.6439:

They have so much potential sitting in game they just don’t want to use it, fractals of the mist would be such a good dungeon to build on and use for a story line, add in a bunch more fractals, put in a quest that you need a key that has to be put together that pieces drop randomly in fractals and theres a special fractal that you can do that randomly shows up sometimes instead of jade maw and if you have the key made you can open a gate and it will give you access to the crystal desert or something…

But theres a flaw here, I don’t see much in the way of items for the gem store…

If your going to talk in gem store terms more then like your only talking to ppl who have your same point of view. From that point of view though would you think Anet would want to give up long term money for just a short term cash out? By the very logic of money running every thing should show that Anet wants to make there game better for the long run.

Unless they already know that there is no long term, just like there is no expansion. So, the more than can suck the money out of the players now, the better.

If you truly believe that then you would not be posting here. Also they would not allowed gold to gems being that Anet seem to want all the money every one has and will make there game as crappy as they can to get that money because THAT is the logic your using.

You don’t understand how the gold to gem conversion works do you? The more people that buy gems with gold, the more gems cost for gold. Which makes it more lucrative to buy gems with cash.

I guess economics isn’t your strong suit, eh?

Considering most of the players have already left the game and that it is quickly dying, ya I would say you are late to the party. Most of the content has already come and gone – so you will have to wait til next year, hopefully, if you want a chance to “catch up”.

Sorry, you didn’t miss much.

Rama.6439:

clay.7849:

Jski.6180:

Rama.6439:

They have so much potential sitting in game they just don’t want to use it, fractals of the mist would be such a good dungeon to build on and use for a story line, add in a bunch more fractals, put in a quest that you need a key that has to be put together that pieces drop randomly in fractals and theres a special fractal that you can do that randomly shows up sometimes instead of jade maw and if you have the key made you can open a gate and it will give you access to the crystal desert or something…

But theres a flaw here, I don’t see much in the way of items for the gem store…

If your going to talk in gem store terms more then like your only talking to ppl who have your same point of view. From that point of view though would you think Anet would want to give up long term money for just a short term cash out? By the very logic of money running every thing should show that Anet wants to make there game better for the long run.

Unless they already know that there is no long term, just like there is no expansion. So, the more than can suck the money out of the players now, the better.

Totally agree, I mean more then half the players that started playing the game have already left, and they keep removing ways for us to earn gold and nerf everything in game that is fun then they will drive half of the rest then what, start merging servers to keep costs down?

You know, I read it took 3 weeks for that developer to write that insanely stupid rytlocks rampage or whatever it is that’s on the main page, the 2D game, IMHO that 3 weeks should have been used to write something for in game like some new fractals, a new world boss event or something that we actually could use in game but it was wasted and I hope she was paid for it.

Just goes to show how this company wastes time and money…

Yes. I suspect that once they knew that the game was never going to live up to expectations, they just went for the cash grab to try and make a return on investment.

It’s funny, I might have 300 hours in the game and I haven’t played in weeks, yet the leaderboard has me listed in the 70th percentile. So 70% of the players in this game have achieved less than I have – and I barely play/played.

The only way to monetize the game at this point is to have a reason to get everyone back once a month and add limited time content in the gem store.

In sales and marketing, this is what we simply call: creating urgency. It is a really simple effect that tends to do a good job of creating impulse buys instead of educated ones.

With 70% of the population playing or having played less than I did, I can see why ANet has stooped to this.

tolunart.2095:

Flissy.4093:

This is a plague that has been unleashed on Tyria. I’ve had enough of Soldier Warriors joining my groups saying “but i gud dps” but make it so we’re effectively 4 manning the thing. This makes it even worse.

There is only two uses for defensive stats, and that’s to cover a players incompetent kitten as they are too bad to dodge, alternatively your character is an anchor, where you only want Knights anyway as Vitality is objectively bad (and this role should be a Guardian only). Everybody else should be Rampager/Zerk, no ifs, no buts.

If I have the ability to play full berserker and get a dungeon done quickly, why should I have to carry someone who isn’t pulling there weight?

Oh well, back to gear checking I suppose.

I talk from a PvE standpoint only.

You’re the reason why I refuse to wear “zerk.”

You’re the reason I ragequit dungeon groups because people can’t kill things fast enough. Learn to dodge.

Jski.6180:

Rama.6439:

They have so much potential sitting in game they just don’t want to use it, fractals of the mist would be such a good dungeon to build on and use for a story line, add in a bunch more fractals, put in a quest that you need a key that has to be put together that pieces drop randomly in fractals and theres a special fractal that you can do that randomly shows up sometimes instead of jade maw and if you have the key made you can open a gate and it will give you access to the crystal desert or something…

But theres a flaw here, I don’t see much in the way of items for the gem store…

If your going to talk in gem store terms more then like your only talking to ppl who have your same point of view. From that point of view though would you think Anet would want to give up long term money for just a short term cash out? By the very logic of money running every thing should show that Anet wants to make there game better for the long run.

Unless they already know that there is no long term, just like there is no expansion. So, the more than can suck the money out of the players now, the better.

Behellagh.1468:

If you don’t like the game then leave and spare those who do your opinions. I have no idea why you would hang around a game that you all find so broken IYO. What? never bought a game you didn’t like before or just one you couldn’t trade for $6 at GameStop?

It doesn’t have the “trinity”.
It doesn’t have WoW style raids.
It doesn’t have open PvP or PvP specific servers.
It doesn’t have a market/craft system that you can make a bajillion gold with.

And in all likelihood this isn’t going to change anytime in the future so why hang around? Go. Shoo. Find another game or go back to the MMOs that you wished this game was just like.

Hey, I understand, different strokes for different folks. No hard feelings but go. Leave us in peace.

Nah…. :P

Shootsfoot.9276:

clay.7849:

Shootsfoot.9276:

clay.7849:

Shootsfoot.9276:

clay.7849:

Shootsfoot.9276:

clay.7849:

Shootsfoot.9276:

The problem is the main mechanic of damage mitigation is dodging. Once you get good at that, you can pretty much not worry about other damage mitigation such as toughness and focus on dps.

That is why berserker gear is so popular.

That is why they need to take a look at fight mechanics again. Damage is MILES above the other two; control and support.

It’s way out of whack.

I agree with this, but IMO, the problem is that they don’t want to stay away from making classes more important than others.

The common denominator between all classes is that they deal damage.

If, however, you make control and support more effective, then you create the same problem that they were trying to solve – that people are only going to want certain support and control classes in their parties.

Then why make them at all? Just make this a third person shooter and everybody just does damage.

I’m sorry, but your reason for not doing it is a bit ridiculous because every single class can support and every single class can control. They just can’t do it enough to make a difference.

Bosses that one-shot you, no matter what support or what control you have on them is bad design, pure and simple.

Edit: I should clarify…I’m not talking about bosses that have a spell you can dodge/avoid/interrupt that one-shot you, I’m talking about bosses that you can’t get hit at all or you die.

Oh, I agree with you 100% on everything you said. Don’t think I am defending ANet. What you said is exactly the same thing I have said to others.

The problem is the mindset that ANet needs to make a game where people can jump into any kind of group and roll content easily, rather than a game that might take more time to set a group up – but offers much more intrinsically rewarding combat.

But, I think where we disagree is when you say “all classes can support and all classes can control.” They may all be able to do this to some extent – but some are vastly better than others at certain things. If ANet makes those things beneficial and necessary for content – then we are going back to the need to look for specific classes to do content.

Exactly. Which is why I keep saying the “control” and the “support” roles need to be better defined for every profession. Do that correctly, and you’re not looking for specific professions, you’re looking for specific roles…which anybody can fill, no matter what profession they are playing.

You want to play a glass cannon? That’s fine, but you’d better have somebody behind you keeping you alive or keeping that mob under control, because you’re not going to be able to out-dps the mechanics of this fight.

Oh and all those mobs you just ran through? Forget it…they’re not going to stop chasing you. Better get a wall up to stop them or you’re toast because you pulled them.

THAT’S what needs to be done.

All my opinion, of course. :-D

The only thing I think that is tough is making all classes good at all roles to the point where it doesn’t matter who you bring – as long as they spec right.

Of course, that’s not to say it couldn’t happen, but maybe I’m just splitting hairs.

But, otherwise, I agree with you 100%.

Well, you’re always going to have the idiot “elitists” who say this class or that class is the best at doing a certain function, but I don’t see it being that difficult to make it so all classes can be good enough at doing them.

Which is actually why I think it would be cool to get rid of classes and, like an FPS, have people pick from an arsenal of weapons, traits, utilities, etc.

If that is the goal, then why not go full at it? I think it would be a hell of a lot cooler than what we have now. I really think if they want to end class discrimination in MMO’s, get rid of the classes.

Just a thought…

Meh, I don’t know about that. In these kinds of games, everybody wants some sort of identity.

You get rid of identities, you just have an arcade game, in my opinion.

Well, I would much rather just bring back the same skill and class system we had in GW1 pre-Nightfall if I had my choice.

I honestly think DE’s were some of the most fun I had in the game. Although, I guess that doesn’t say much for the rest of the game then, eh?

Substance E.4852:

Mostly because game companies are bad at balanced design and Anet is almost Blizzard bad at it.

I don’t think I have ever even played an FPS, and I’ve played some kitten good ones, that didn’t suffer from the same thing where everyone had access to the same full arsenal but in the end it was 2-3 guns that everyone used because they were just plain better.

The more options you create the harder it is to balance everything unless you make every encounter a wildcard where you have to constantly change your outfit and tactics to win which sounds good on paper but won’t keep people playing long.

No one will care about a shiny, particle effect-filled sword if you can only ever be good with it 10% of the time.

I don’t know that I really follow what you are trying to say, mostly the second to last sentence when you say “unless you make every encounter…”

Also, the part where you seem to assume that the idea I presented would lead to more options. Although, more reasons to use the options than we have now is a good thing, IMO. Of course, I think the combat in this game is rather shallow.

In either case, I still stand by the fact that the problem with combat is the fact that I don’t see any way to end class discrimination without basically making every class be able to do the same thing as effective as the others – which means that the only difference between classes is the illusion of how they do things – not the actual things they are doing.

Therefore, if we want to remove class discrimination, shouldn’t we just remove classes and let people pick what “roles” they want to run based on the weapons and skills/traits they use.

Of course, that then begs the question – how is making one class have access to all the various roles in a game any different than a person that has all classes available as alts to them to pick from.

In which case, assuming that you would need to progress certain weapons and traits in a game similar to progressing your class – how is any of this different.

Which leads me to believe that we just need a trinity of rock/paper/scissors back instead of damage/dodging which is what we have now.

Shootsfoot.9276:

clay.7849:

ArenaNet dug their own grave when they turned their backs on much of the GW1 community.

Back to that song, eh? ;-P

It’s a catchy tune that some people can relate to.

Shootsfoot.9276:

clay.7849:

Shootsfoot.9276:

clay.7849:

Shootsfoot.9276:

clay.7849:

Shootsfoot.9276:

The problem is the main mechanic of damage mitigation is dodging. Once you get good at that, you can pretty much not worry about other damage mitigation such as toughness and focus on dps.

That is why berserker gear is so popular.

That is why they need to take a look at fight mechanics again. Damage is MILES above the other two; control and support.

It’s way out of whack.

I agree with this, but IMO, the problem is that they don’t want to stay away from making classes more important than others.

The common denominator between all classes is that they deal damage.

If, however, you make control and support more effective, then you create the same problem that they were trying to solve – that people are only going to want certain support and control classes in their parties.

Then why make them at all? Just make this a third person shooter and everybody just does damage.

I’m sorry, but your reason for not doing it is a bit ridiculous because every single class can support and every single class can control. They just can’t do it enough to make a difference.

Bosses that one-shot you, no matter what support or what control you have on them is bad design, pure and simple.

Edit: I should clarify…I’m not talking about bosses that have a spell you can dodge/avoid/interrupt that one-shot you, I’m talking about bosses that you can’t get hit at all or you die.

Oh, I agree with you 100% on everything you said. Don’t think I am defending ANet. What you said is exactly the same thing I have said to others.

The problem is the mindset that ANet needs to make a game where people can jump into any kind of group and roll content easily, rather than a game that might take more time to set a group up – but offers much more intrinsically rewarding combat.

But, I think where we disagree is when you say “all classes can support and all classes can control.” They may all be able to do this to some extent – but some are vastly better than others at certain things. If ANet makes those things beneficial and necessary for content – then we are going back to the need to look for specific classes to do content.

Exactly. Which is why I keep saying the “control” and the “support” roles need to be better defined for every profession. Do that correctly, and you’re not looking for specific professions, you’re looking for specific roles…which anybody can fill, no matter what profession they are playing.

You want to play a glass cannon? That’s fine, but you’d better have somebody behind you keeping you alive or keeping that mob under control, because you’re not going to be able to out-dps the mechanics of this fight.

Oh and all those mobs you just ran through? Forget it…they’re not going to stop chasing you. Better get a wall up to stop them or you’re toast because you pulled them.

THAT’S what needs to be done.

All my opinion, of course. :-D

The only thing I think that is tough is making all classes good at all roles to the point where it doesn’t matter who you bring – as long as they spec right.

Of course, that’s not to say it couldn’t happen, but maybe I’m just splitting hairs.

But, otherwise, I agree with you 100%.

Well, you’re always going to have the idiot “elitists” who say this class or that class is the best at doing a certain function, but I don’t see it being that difficult to make it so all classes can be good enough at doing them.

Which is actually why I think it would be cool to get rid of classes and, like an FPS, have people pick from an arsenal of weapons, traits, utilities, etc.

If that is the goal, then why not go full at it? I think it would be a hell of a lot cooler than what we have now. I really think if they want to end class discrimination in MMO’s, get rid of the classes.

Just a thought…

Shootsfoot.9276:

clay.7849:

Shootsfoot.9276:

clay.7849:

Shootsfoot.9276:

The problem is the main mechanic of damage mitigation is dodging. Once you get good at that, you can pretty much not worry about other damage mitigation such as toughness and focus on dps.

That is why berserker gear is so popular.

That is why they need to take a look at fight mechanics again. Damage is MILES above the other two; control and support.

It’s way out of whack.

I agree with this, but IMO, the problem is that they don’t want to stay away from making classes more important than others.

The common denominator between all classes is that they deal damage.

If, however, you make control and support more effective, then you create the same problem that they were trying to solve – that people are only going to want certain support and control classes in their parties.

Then why make them at all? Just make this a third person shooter and everybody just does damage.

I’m sorry, but your reason for not doing it is a bit ridiculous because every single class can support and every single class can control. They just can’t do it enough to make a difference.

Bosses that one-shot you, no matter what support or what control you have on them is bad design, pure and simple.

Edit: I should clarify…I’m not talking about bosses that have a spell you can dodge/avoid/interrupt that one-shot you, I’m talking about bosses that you can’t get hit at all or you die.

Oh, I agree with you 100% on everything you said. Don’t think I am defending ANet. What you said is exactly the same thing I have said to others.

The problem is the mindset that ANet needs to make a game where people can jump into any kind of group and roll content easily, rather than a game that might take more time to set a group up – but offers much more intrinsically rewarding combat.

But, I think where we disagree is when you say “all classes can support and all classes can control.” They may all be able to do this to some extent – but some are vastly better than others at certain things. If ANet makes those things beneficial and necessary for content – then we are going back to the need to look for specific classes to do content.

Exactly. Which is why I keep saying the “control” and the “support” roles need to be better defined for every profession. Do that correctly, and you’re not looking for specific professions, you’re looking for specific roles…which anybody can fill, no matter what profession they are playing.

You want to play a glass cannon? That’s fine, but you’d better have somebody behind you keeping you alive or keeping that mob under control, because you’re not going to be able to out-dps the mechanics of this fight.

Oh and all those mobs you just ran through? Forget it…they’re not going to stop chasing you. Better get a wall up to stop them or you’re toast because you pulled them.

THAT’S what needs to be done.

All my opinion, of course. :-D

The only thing I think that is tough is making all classes good at all roles to the point where it doesn’t matter who you bring – as long as they spec right.

Of course, that’s not to say it couldn’t happen, but maybe I’m just splitting hairs.

But, otherwise, I agree with you 100%.

Shootsfoot.9276:

clay.7849:

Shootsfoot.9276:

The problem is the main mechanic of damage mitigation is dodging. Once you get good at that, you can pretty much not worry about other damage mitigation such as toughness and focus on dps.

That is why berserker gear is so popular.

That is why they need to take a look at fight mechanics again. Damage is MILES above the other two; control and support.

It’s way out of whack.

I agree with this, but IMO, the problem is that they don’t want to stay away from making classes more important than others.

The common denominator between all classes is that they deal damage.

If, however, you make control and support more effective, then you create the same problem that they were trying to solve – that people are only going to want certain support and control classes in their parties.

Then why make them at all? Just make this a third person shooter and everybody just does damage.

I’m sorry, but your reason for not doing it is a bit ridiculous because every single class can support and every single class can control. They just can’t do it enough to make a difference.

Bosses that one-shot you, no matter what support or what control you have on them is bad design, pure and simple.

Edit: I should clarify…I’m not talking about bosses that have a spell you can dodge/avoid/interrupt that one-shot you, I’m talking about bosses that you can’t get hit at all or you die.

Oh, I agree with you 100% on everything you said. Don’t think I am defending ANet. What you said is exactly the same thing I have said to others.

The problem is the mindset that ANet needs to make a game where people can jump into any kind of group and roll content easily, rather than a game that might take more time to set a group up – but offers much more intrinsically rewarding combat.

But, I think where we disagree is when you say “all classes can support and all classes can control.” They may all be able to do this to some extent – but some are vastly better than others at certain things. If ANet makes those things beneficial and necessary for content – then we are going back to the need to look for specific classes to do content.

Shootsfoot.9276:

The problem is the main mechanic of damage mitigation is dodging. Once you get good at that, you can pretty much not worry about other damage mitigation such as toughness and focus on dps.

That is why berserker gear is so popular.

That is why they need to take a look at fight mechanics again. Damage is MILES above the other two; control and support.

It’s way out of whack.

I agree with this, but IMO, the problem is that they don’t want to stay away from making classes more important than others.

The common denominator between all classes is that they deal damage.

If, however, you make control and support more effective, then you create the same problem that they were trying to solve – that people are only going to want certain support and control classes in their parties.

Well good luck arguing against me guys. I’m out.

I am not trying to say you shouldn’t use support. I am merely pointing out that it is as fact that it is less effective.

If you get ego-hurt by that fact, then maybe you should reevaluate how much importance you put into things said on forums.

Good luck arguing amongst yourselves.

phys.7689:

clay.7849:

ThiBash.5634:

clay.7849:

Textbook example of a straw man argument. Nice one!

If you are going to use logical fallacies to argue, there is no point in trying to have a meaningful discussion with you, is there?

Your original statement dismissed all reasons WHY support would be worthless, you just claimed it based on your own opinion. You then responded to my arguments with the above statement which was again void of arguments to support your case.

If you like damage more than support, fine. But claiming it is worthless without backing up that claim isn’t gonna win you any support.

Again, you are putting words in my mouth and arguing against those words. Where did I say support was worthless?

See, you are arguing against something I never said. I said that support, as a whole, is less effective than straight DPS provided that DPS can dodge effectively.

That, my friend, is a true statement – as it relates to being the most effective in a PvE encounter.

I never said that support is useless, it just isn’t as useful as constant direct damage and good dodging.

your oversimplifying here, truth is support isnt just healing, its also blinding enemies, using control at the right time, enemy placement, as well as offensive buffs.
dodge means you must stop doing damage for 3 seconds, Blind can mean you can continue to DPS, reflect/absorb projectiles can do the same. Mesmer reflecting might and fury is support.
The honest truth is support is powerful, its just a playstyle most teams have not developed, While people have picked one group composition and figured out how to maximize its effectiveness, most people have not done the same with more complex team set ups.

How is taking the time to blind something any different than taking the time to dodge?

Also, dodging doesn’t take 3 seconds.

ThiBash.5634:

The reason I argue here at the moment is because I strongly dislike people who argue debating techniques instead of coming up with actual arguments. It’s often because they have none.

So, basically, you like using logical fallacies and hate when people call you out on it? Good one!

ThiBash.5634:

clay.7849:

That is not true at all.

You know what’s necessary for life? Food, shelter and clothing.

Do you think that everything else is worthless?

Who is using strawmen now? You can state for a fact that breathable air is also neccesary for life, yet by your way of phrasing that would equal support as it isn’t listed as neccesary. Yet I wouldn’t go without it, and I imagine neither would you.

Now, if you were to argue that a player going for nothing but support, and no dps at all…then I could agree that he weren’t truly neccesary. But as it stands now, support is a natural part of gameplay. When I lay down a fire field for damage, I also open up the possibility for combos that cause burning. Hence I’m supporting my party’s damage abilities WHILE playing as a dps. That’s how support really works. It’s not like GW1 where you’re either a healer or you’re not.

I don’t even know what you are saying. You said that things that aren’t useful are worthless. I merely disagreed using a pretty relevant argument. You really need to look up what straw man means if you think what I provided as an counter-argument was a straw man.

Maybe, you should rethink your statement that “everything that is unnecessary is useless.”

Star Ace.5207:

clay.7849:

ThiBash.5634:

clay.7849:

The point is that support in this game is inefficient and, therefore, unnecessary. I would point out that it is a shame that the PvE content in this game is such that it doesn’t provide an interesting reason to use support classes.

So basically what you’re saying is that anyon who chooses to focus on supplying the party with boons first, damage second, is a dead weight?

So the added healing that lets you stay in the fight longer to deal more damage is a waste? The high number of might stacks and fury that can add up to 70% to your damage output are a waste? 25 stack vulnerability do nothing? Snares are useless?

As a staff elementalist, I prefer to every 45 seconds or so stop mindlessly spamming fireballs to setup my skills for perma chill on the dungeon boss. But I suppose the 5 seconds of dealing less damage are wasted for you. Even if it does mean you now have to dodge those big spikes just 1/3 of the time now.

Textbook example of a straw man argument. Nice one!

If you are going to use logical fallacies to argue, there is no point in trying to have a meaningful discussion with you, is there?

Hello, Clay, not everybody cares about argument stuff. I hate arguments in the first place, and the strawman stuff is thrown all over the place on all types of forums as an avoidance tactics. “You suck at debating, you used a strawman!” You know what, I hate debating, and am quite rational nonetheless. I don’t care about winning debates or proving who’s right or wrong (it’s a personality thing, I Just don’t care, therefore had no issue to use a “strawman” to counter your position-was basically stating what I believe more than trying to debate with you, whether you hate it or not.)

The fact still stands that it seems your position is playing support is “the obviously inferior choice” in your own words, which is what many of us oppose. What is a fact to you isn’t a fact for everybody else. If I want to play a supposedly “inferior” spec, just leave us alone, and don’t belittle us by stating that it’s inferior just because you wouldn’t use the stuff/build yourself. People get passionate and invoke “strawmans” just because it’s not nice to tell someone that what they do is inferior than what you do, just because you are honestly convinced that what you do is “the best”-it may not be the best for someone else, though.

That’s all, it’s not about debates, strawmans, or being wrong or right. It’s just OK for players to play whichever way they want, even if you would hate to play in certain ways yourself whatever reasons (be it math, “efficiency”, etc.) I certainly won’t tell you that “full DPS” is bad for you if that is what you like, but you do not need to apologize for your choice by saying every other choice is inferior.

Do yourself a favor and look up the definition of what a straw man argument is.

And, it is a fact that every other choice other than damage and good dodging is inferior – just like trying to use a knife to substitute a flathead screwdriver is inferior.

It’s not a wrong choice – it just doesn’t do the job as well. You can play however you like.

I guess the “you’re doing it wrong” is the part you disliked. I am sorry about that. That bit was really directed at ANet for my particular distaste with the fact that support isn’t as effective as other things in the game. I would very much like to see support and conditions and healing and interrupts, etc. be a part of interesting choices we can make – along with DPS – to beat content. However, while you can use these things – it is the fact that they aren’t as useful that makes them inherently uninteresting choices.

ThiBash.5634:

clay.7849:

Again, you are putting words in my mouth and arguing against those words. Where did I say support was worthless?

See, you are arguing against something I never said. I said that support, as a whole, is less effective than straight DPS provided that DPS can dodge effectively.

That, my friend, is a true statement – as it relates to being the most effective in a PvE encounter.

I never said that support is useless, it just isn’t as useful as constant direct damage and good dodging.

Fine, I’ll bite:

clay

The point is that support in this game is inefficient and, therefore, unnecessary.

If something is unneccesary, then per definition it’s worthless.

That is not true at all.

You know what’s necessary for life? Food, shelter and clothing.

Do you think that everything else is worthless?

ThiBash.5634:

clay.7849:

Textbook example of a straw man argument. Nice one!

If you are going to use logical fallacies to argue, there is no point in trying to have a meaningful discussion with you, is there?

Your original statement dismissed all reasons WHY support would be worthless, you just claimed it based on your own opinion. You then responded to my arguments with the above statement which was again void of arguments to support your case.

If you like damage more than support, fine. But claiming it is worthless without backing up that claim isn’t gonna win you any support.

Again, you are putting words in my mouth and arguing against those words. Where did I say support was worthless?

See, you are arguing against something I never said. I said that support, as a whole, is less effective than straight DPS provided that DPS can dodge effectively.

That, my friend, is a true statement – as it relates to being the most effective in a PvE encounter.

I never said that support is useless, it just isn’t as useful as constant direct damage and good dodging.

Zosk.5609:

Healing is not really support… since the purpose of support is to cover all the things that aren’t directly about ‘damage’…

However, it’s really hard to make a healing class in this game without dipping heavily into support abilties… healing is very weak for most classes and kind of weak for the few classes that can manage to pull it off…

Basically, it’s sort of a problem with the game that everything comes down to DPS classes vs non-DPS classes..not a problem with the players so much.

This exactly. Although this is really an inevitable consequence of making a game by trying to make every class equally viable, yet different.

Sure, there are some things that different classes do well. Mesmers are only really useful because they have Time Warp to increase DPS on bosses and portal to help skip content.

But, on a whole, by trying to make every class equally viable, you must reduce content to be beatable by the only common thing that all classes can do – which is damage.

ThiBash.5634:

clay.7849:

The point is that support in this game is inefficient and, therefore, unnecessary. I would point out that it is a shame that the PvE content in this game is such that it doesn’t provide an interesting reason to use support classes.

So basically what you’re saying is that anyon who chooses to focus on supplying the party with boons first, damage second, is a dead weight?

So the added healing that lets you stay in the fight longer to deal more damage is a waste? The high number of might stacks and fury that can add up to 70% to your damage output are a waste? 25 stack vulnerability do nothing? Snares are useless?

As a staff elementalist, I prefer to every 45 seconds or so stop mindlessly spamming fireballs to setup my skills for perma chill on the dungeon boss. But I suppose the 5 seconds of dealing less damage are wasted for you. Even if it does mean you now have to dodge those big spikes just 1/3 of the time now.

Textbook example of a straw man argument. Nice one!

If you are going to use logical fallacies to argue, there is no point in trying to have a meaningful discussion with you, is there?

Star Ace.5207:

clay.7849:

The best support in this game is to learn how to dodge well. If you have to rely on your teammates to keep you up – you’re doing it wrong.

So people who play “support” don’t know how to dodge? Wearing Berserker’s instantly makes you a “pro” at dodging and Cleric’s armor means you don’t know how to evade?

I agree no one should depend on anyone to survive, though assuming that a player that plays “support” is thus rendered useless is quite the stretch. I love supportive players, as well as playing as one when I do.

This isn’t Math Wars 2. Play what’s fun for you, which may not necessarily be what has the higher “effective damage”.

No offense meant at all-play and let play (as the wise Ventari would teach to the Sylvari: “All things have a right to grow”-basically the true GW2 manifesto.)

I think you missed the point of my post. But thank you for the typical ad hominems and strawmans that are typical of forum goers and apologists.

The point is that support in this game is inefficient and, therefore, unnecessary. Good dodging skills will trump the advantage of any support character to the point where that support character in unnecessary and is less efficient to helping with content.

Of course, if you feel the need to play a way that is less efficient – that is fine. No one is saying that you have to play the best way possible. Although, I would point out that it is a shame that the PvE content in this game is such that it doesn’t provide an interesting reason to use support classes.