Guild Wars 2

RebelYell.7132:

clay.7849:

See what is funny is I’m comfortable knowing that people have different opinions than me. I don’t try and tell them their opinion is wrong. But, when I share my opinion about something WE KNOW NOTHING ABOUT, I seem to offend a lot of people and they want to tell me I’m wrong. Guess what? You can’t because you don’t know.

I understand how that is. “Molten Alliance Pick – good or bad idea?” is a pretty stellar example. I go in, and am pretty quickly beset by fanboys, despite the THREAD TITLE ITSELF open soliciting both positive and negative opinion.

Exactly. You don’t get to have a discussion because you never get a chance to get past the title of the thread. People disagree with you without discussing the reasons why you think it is a good or bad idea.

Uruz Six.6594:

clay.7849:

I don’t need to prove anything. It is MY OPINION that there is a declining player base. Nothing I stated was intended to be stated as fact – just opinion.

Step 1: Make an outrageous claim without any verifiable facts.
Step 2: Get called on for making said outrageous claim.
Step 3: Play the victim card about how you’re merely stating an opinion.

It’s not that outrageous, you just think it is because you don’t like it.

phys.7689:

I think the point hes making here is not that you shouldnt have an opinion. I think he is saying that simply dismissing everything as opinion is worthless in terms of actual problem solving. Hes saying dont just say nothing matters because everyone has an opinion.

Say i have this opinion based on these factors, heres where i think something is strong, and heres where i think something is lacking. The point is to have a discussion that may give deeper understanding or bear fruit. The topic is do you find the game fun. Of course its going to be an opinion, but theoretically by discussing why yes, and why no, someone seeking solutions maybe able to glean useful information on why people are happy, or not happy, and better allot their resources towards making the game over all, better.

Of course nothing may come of it, but eh point of a forum is discussion, why not try.

Exactly. When I talk about something like, I think the game lacks depth because of XYZ, it would be more prudent to discuss XYZ rather than dismiss the idea that the game lacks depth because you don’t think so.

That is the whole point and why we keep running in to these issues.

If we have an opinion about the game, one should state why they have that opinion. Then instead of attacking that opinion with another, you should argue the reasons behind the first person’s opinion. That is how good conversation and arguments happen.

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

You can’t really have an opinion…

Sorry Vayne, that’s where you lost me. I couldn’t get over that statement and gave up reading the rest. That might be the dumbest thing someone has ever said.

You can’t have opinions about a fact. That’s basic to any system of logic. If you didn’t read the rest, that’s on you. Other people understand it.

If the temperature is 80 degrees F and I think it feels colder, that doesn’t change the fact that the temperature is 80 degrees F. A fact is a fact.

Either the games population is declining or it’s not. You BELIEVE it is but there’s no evidence for it. It’s still not an opinion.

If we don’t know the facts, then it is definitely possible to have an opinion. Just like when someone says it looks cold outside. Until you are outside or know the temperature, you are allowed to have an opinion of the temperature because you don’t know what it is. Therefore, I can have an opinion about something which none of us knows the truth about.

Again, I’m disagreeing with the use of the word opinion. You can guess at the weather, and you might be right or wrong, but it’s demonstrable. I’d never use the word opinion to say what the temperature is like. This is a semantic difference.

Actually I just looked it up and you can have your opinion back. It’s still an opinion that ignores every bit of circumstantial evidence, for which you have no answer, but it’s definitely your opinion.

Thank you!

See what is funny is I’m comfortable knowing that people have different opinions than me. I don’t try and tell them their opinion is wrong. But, when I share my opinion about something we know nothing about, I seem to offend a lot of people and they want to tell me I’m wrong. Guess what? You can’t because you don’t know.

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

Aeonblade.8709:

I like cheese.

Also, since I have started playing again back in February, only half the servers were above medium population. Until they updated the capacity a week or so ago, they had pretty much all moved to Very High or at least High. I know that’s just a count of accounts tied to the server for their home world, but that certainly means people are still buying the game in droves.

You have sales numbers and server activity reports? If so, please share.

Do you? If so please share.

I don’t. Neither do you. That’s the point. I’m not trying to say that I know what is happening and make people believe it. I’m just giving my opinion.

Aeonblade.8709:

clay.7849:

Aeonblade.8709:

I like cheese.

Also, since I have started playing again back in February, only half the servers were above medium population. Until they updated the capacity a week or so ago, they had pretty much all moved to Very High or at least High. I know that’s just a count of accounts tied to the server for their home world, but that certainly means people are still buying the game in droves.

You have sales numbers and server activity reports? If so, please share.

I’d rather not even if I had them. It was an opinion and just what I have seen from playing again. Take it for what it is, you don’t always have to be right clay.

I don’t want to be right. I want to be able to have an opinion.

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

You can’t really have an opinion…

Sorry Vayne, that’s where you lost me. I couldn’t get over that statement and gave up reading the rest. That might be the dumbest thing someone has ever said.

You can’t have opinions about a fact. That’s basic to any system of logic. If you didn’t read the rest, that’s on you. Other people understand it.

If the temperature is 80 degrees F and I think it feels colder, that doesn’t change the fact that the temperature is 80 degrees F. A fact is a fact.

Either the games population is declining or it’s not. You BELIEVE it is but there’s no evidence for it. It’s still not an opinion.

If we don’t know the facts, then it is definitely possible to have an opinion. Just like when someone says it looks cold outside. Until you are outside or know the temperature, you are allowed to have an opinion of the temperature because you don’t know what it is. Therefore, I can have an opinion about something which none of us knows the truth about.

Jski.6180:

clay.7849:

Jski.6180:

clay.7849:

Jski.6180:

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

You can’t really have an opinion…

Sorry Vayne, that’s where you lost me. I couldn’t get over that statement and gave up reading the rest. That might be the dumbest thing someone has ever said.

You know your taking that out of context you should at least use the full quote.
You can have an opinion about any thing but its pointless if its base off of nothing. “I think rice is good because i like water” yes you have an opinion about rice but you have no reason for that opinion making its an non opinion.

I didn’t take it out of context. In no way am I not allowed to have an opinion, regardless of whether it is true or not. Especially, since none of us know what is true and what isn’t.

No your making this into a personal thing where you are evoking indignation to try to avoid the point that you have no reason for the way you think.
We KNOW that they made server bigger. Why do ppl think the game is losing ppl?

You don’t need to think the way I think. Nor, do you need to try to change the way I think. It’s my opinion. Yours isn’t any better than mine.

I am NOT giving you an opinion in that post about the game i am just saying what we know and asking you why ppl think the game is losing ppl.

What do you know?

Aeonblade.8709:

I like cheese.

Also, since I have started playing again back in February, only half the servers were above medium population. Until they updated the capacity a week or so ago, they had pretty much all moved to Very High or at least High. I know that’s just a count of accounts tied to the server for their home world, but that certainly means people are still buying the game in droves.

You have sales numbers and server activity reports? If so, please share.

Jski.6180:

clay.7849:

Jski.6180:

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

You can’t really have an opinion…

Sorry Vayne, that’s where you lost me. I couldn’t get over that statement and gave up reading the rest. That might be the dumbest thing someone has ever said.

You know your taking that out of context you should at least use the full quote.
You can have an opinion about any thing but its pointless if its base off of nothing. “I think rice is good because i like water” yes you have an opinion about rice but you have no reason for that opinion making its an non opinion.

I didn’t take it out of context. In no way am I not allowed to have an opinion, regardless of whether it is true or not. Especially, since none of us know what is true and what isn’t.

No your making this into a personal thing where you are evoking indignation to try to avoid the point that you have no reason for the way you think.
We KNOW that they made server bigger. Why do ppl think the game is losing ppl?

You don’t need to think the way I think. Nor, do you need to try to change the way I think. It’s my opinion. Yours isn’t any better than mine.

Jski.6180:

UnderdogSMO.9428:

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

You can’t really have an opinion…

Sorry Vayne, that’s where you lost me. I couldn’t get over that statement and gave up reading the rest. That might be the dumbest thing someone has ever said.

“that the game is lossing players” he’s right. it ether is or it isn’t.

Well with what we know they had to make the server size bigger so from that the game is not losing more then its getting back. So where are you getting that its losing ppl more then its getting back?

It’s just my opinion. You are entitled to yours. Although, what you say doesn’t necessitate that the population isn’t declining. Just my opinion… Sorry if you don’t like it.

Jski.6180:

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

You can’t really have an opinion…

Sorry Vayne, that’s where you lost me. I couldn’t get over that statement and gave up reading the rest. That might be the dumbest thing someone has ever said.

You know your taking that out of context you should at least use the full quote.
You can have an opinion about any thing but its pointless if its base off of nothing. “I think rice is good because i like water” yes you have an opinion about rice but you have no reason for that opinion making its an non opinion.

I didn’t take it out of context. In no way am I not allowed to have an opinion, regardless of whether it is true or not. Especially, since none of us know what is true and what isn’t.

UnderdogSMO.9428:

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

You can’t really have an opinion…

Sorry Vayne, that’s where you lost me. I couldn’t get over that statement and gave up reading the rest. That might be the dumbest thing someone has ever said.

“that the game is lossing players” he’s right. it ether is or it isn’t.

But since none of us know whether it is true or not, I am allowed to have my opinion. He’s not right. I am never not allowed to have an opinion, no matter how many people don’t like it.

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

@Guns and Giblets

He is never going to understand. No point in trying to reason with someone who is unreasonable.

Oh I understand fine. You’re kitten because you feel betrayed. And you’re unhappy so you want everyone else to be unhappy. You can’t STAND it that people are enjoying this game. A game you desperately wanted to enjoy but couldn’t.

So you make your like jibes and you snipe and you try to convince people to be just as unhappy as you are. And you know, people see it. I’m not the only one.

But it’s cool. Because I’ll never understand.

Wow. You are good at stereotyping people. Do you do that just for forum goers or does that creep into your life for people of different races, ethnicity and religious backgrounds too?

Sorry guy but it’s pretty obvious. And when the argument goes against you, you then resort to personal insults. And when you’re called on that you say cute things like “Who are you, my father?”

No. I’m not your father, though I might be old enough to be. I simply don’t believe that hanging around a game forum for a game I’m not enjoying, and trying to ruin other people’s enjoyment of it is a noble act.

So, my posting about my opinion of the game ruins your enjoyment of the game? Let me show you how to close out the web browser window.

Also, you don’t have any arguments. You have a bunch of observations that you use to try and discredit our feelings and opinions. Your opinion is no more important that mine. So, when I post my opinion, unless you have some FACT to prove me wrong, do yourself a favor and don’t try to prove me wrong with your opinion. Just state your opinion without the need to quote me and we won’t be having these issues anymore. It is really that simple. You attempt to undermine everyone else’s opinion with your own.

Vayne.8563:

You can’t really have an opinion…

Sorry Vayne, that’s where you lost me. I couldn’t get over that statement and gave up reading the rest. That might be the dumbest thing someone has ever said.

@Guns and Giblets

He is never going to understand. No point in trying to reason with someone who is unreasonable.

Once there was a product that people didn’t like. Before the internet, there was no way to get an opinion on whether the product was good or not without using poorly implemented services like Consumer Reports. Once the internet was invented and people were able to be way more social with the rest of the world, they were able to create reviews for everyone to see. This way, their opinions could be heard by other consumers and the company that made the product.

In the end, customers were able to find better information about something before they bought it, unhappy customers were able to be heard by the companies they bought from, and overall companies were inclined to make a better product in order to keep their reviews higher and therefore sell more product. And everyone lived happily ever after. The end.

Vayne.8563:

@Clay

This is your original post on the subject:

Agreed. It seems to me that the declining player base may also be why the expansion was nixed to quickly. I doubt NCSoft wants to continue to fund an expansion for a game that failed to hold the attention of the majority of it’s original customer base.

You say it seems to you that the declining player base is the reason the expansion was nixed. That implies it’s your opinion about why it is nixed.

In order to have that opinion you first most prove there’s a declining player base. You not only have no proof of this, but you completely ignore things like servers being expanded. No lay offs. No server mergers. No evidence at all except that you don’t want this game to do well because you feel betrayed.

You make comments about what you think NCsoft wants to or doesn’t want to do. Have you looked at the NCsoft quarterly report. Guild Wars 2 was their most profitable title. Blade and Soul didn’t sell nearly as well as expected. The entire company is pinning their hopes now on this and Wild Star.

See, I look at these things before making generalized statements with no proof to back them up. Then I state something I’ve observed and has been talked about over the years and you ask me to prove it.

You’re very funny. Can I keep you?

I don’t need to prove anything. It is MY OPINION that there is a declining player base. Nothing I stated was intended to be stated as fact – just opinion.

You, on the other hand, as always, use YOUR OPINION AS FACT to try and disprove my opinion. This is why the burden is on you to prove yourself right.

Otherwise, just state your opinion, without the necessity to try and disprove mine, and we can all live comfy cozy without the need to step on each other’s toes unless we have facts to back up our opinions. Which, by the way, neither of us do.

See, you think I care about making my opinion right. I don’t. I’m just stating my opinion as part of this community of forum goers. Nothing more, nothing less.

^^ What he said.

Vayne.8563:

Actually I don’t feel burdened at all. It’s pretty logical, and anyone who’s followed MMOS for years will tell you that people get tired and bored and then they stop playing and then expansions are released. MMOs that are doing well, they have high numbers, they don’t really need to put time and effort into an expansion, because logically, they still have a strong player base.

(snip)

See, you don’t like this game as much as Guild Wars 1, so you don’t want it to do well. It’s called self-fulfilling prophecy. But I made my comment in response to your comment, which said they’re not doing an expansion because they’re not doing well. You said the burden of proof is on me. How come, since you started this, the burden of proof isn’t on you?

Ah, again, your experience makes you an expert. I see. No need for actual proof of your garbage statements, we should just believe you because you are smarter than all of us. LMFAO. And, arguments like Russell’s Teapot don’t apply to you because you don’t FEEL the burden of proof is on you. Good one.

Also, everything I said was my opinion. I don’t need any proof to have an opinion. If, on the other hand, you are going to say I am wrong based on facts, you better back those facts up with something better than, “because I say so…”

You do understand that, right?

google.3709:

Yes, gw2 is an action MMO, it doesn’t have much strategy besides “survive/DPS”. it lacks control, shut downs, pressure and therefore strategy.. sadly 70% of the few forms of control were given to guardian (bubbles/reflects, etc ) instead of being fairly distributed among all classes. so all that’s left is DPS

and DPS.. shines the most on classes who’s class mechanic allows for greater survival such as stealth or clones

And about quality over quantity.. that’s not true at all. I’m not sure if Anet is saving up under-power skills/traits to later shift the meta but.. too many skills/traits lack quality, and the ones who do have it and tend to be nerfed on less popular classes such as kit refinement/ Empathic Bond because traits(skills too) shouldn’t be build defining.

You have “quality” traits like Ele’s earth embrace which for 10 points, it grants long stability/protection/stun breaker, if traited also regen/vigor, remove a condition and even has a glitch that for a short window it will suck in all projectiles. and then you have ranger traits that give you 5s might after activating a signet, not too much quality there..

QFT. The combat in this game is about as shallow as it gets for either a skill based game or an action based game.

Vayne.8563:

Guns and Giblets.9308:

Vayne.8563:

This isn’t true. Anet’s loyalty isn’t to the WoW playerbase. Anet’s loyalty is to keeping the game alive.

He didn’t say Anet’s loyalty was to the WoW playerbase. It’s fairly clear the meaning of his comments, in context, is that Anet had to cater to some of the impulses/desires of the same kinds of people who play WoW in order to increase game sales. Reading comprehension is hard.

And, as is turns out (and you tacitly admit), developing content that appeals to people who also like WoW is what the developers think will keep this game alive. Yet that’s exactly the kind of content many of us aren’t interested in playing and bought this game to avoid.

Except it’s not “like WoW”. That’s what you Guild Wars 1 players seem to be missing. I keep hearing the words more like WoW, more like WoW. You guys are so sensitive to any change that wasn’t in Guild Wars 1, you can’t admit that it can be a positive change for the game over all.

Reference the so-called gear grind in this game. In WoW, you’re gated out of content by your gear. Very gated. Lots of gated. You have to run the same instance over and over to have an RNG chance at a drop, but it’s not just something you “want”. It’s something you absolutely MUST have. Not because it makes you 1% or 10% or 20% more powerful..but because you absolutely can’t enter the next raid until you’re geared for it. That doesn’t exist here, except in the fractals, which is self contained, because they give you what you need.

This game isn’t anything like WoW…unless you’re a Guild Wars 1 player. WoW people who play this game sure don’t seem to think it’s like WoW.

That is your opinion. Not everyone shares that opinion. Please refrain from stating opinion as fact.

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

Chuo.4238:

Tachenon.5270:

.

Was Ascended Gear truly in the works before the game launched? Is there any mention of Ascended Gear prior to its unveiling in November? If Ascended Gear had been mentioned in the Manifesto, how would it have affected the launch of GW2?

It was never mentioned before the Lost Shores update was mentioned. I think it was a knee-jerk reaction to a declining playerbase (normal after a couple months in any game) that backfired horribly, because they didn’t believe that all those people who didn’t want Ascended gear really meant it.

They were convinced, I believe, that the gear treadmill formula was something most players wanted.

Agreed. It seems to me that the declining player base may also be why the expansion was nixed to quickly. I doubt NCSoft wants to continue to fund an expansion for a game that failed to hold the attention of the majority of it’s original customer base.

Traditionally in MMO space, expansions are made when games aren’t doing as well. If a game is doing well, you hold off on the expansion. The idea is to get people back into the game when most people have left…and it usually works. That’s why smaller games like Perfect World keep making expansions.

Games that are doing really well hold their expansions for a time when another big game is coming out.

Your expertise on the matter is greatly appreciated. I’m glad we have someone so knowledgeable about the MMO business to tell us why and when MMO’s make expansions.

Seriously man, you don’t know any of this to be true. You’re just spouting garbage.

How do you know I’m spouting garbage? That’s what I’d like to know. Because you think so? Well, that puts that into perspective.

I’m really glad you say stuff like that. Then everyone can read what we write and decide which of us is “spouting garbage” as you so quaintly put it.

You really do entertain me.

If you are going to make broad statements like developers only make expansions when games aren’t doing well, please provide proof. The burden is on you. Russell’s Teapot, etc.

Until then, when you state it as fact as you do, it is pure garbage.

Mirta.5029:

Drew.1865:

clay.7849:

Guns and Giblets.9308:

Vayne.8563:

This isn’t true. Anet’s loyalty isn’t to the WoW playerbase. Anet’s loyalty is to keeping the game alive.

He didn’t say Anet’s loyalty was to the WoW playerbase. It’s fairly clear the meaning of his comments, in context, is that Anet had to cater to some of the impulses/desires of the same kinds of people who play WoW in order to increase game sales. Reading comprehension is hard.

And, as is turns out (and you tacitly admit), developing content that appeals to people who also like WoW is what the developers think will keep this game alive. Yet that’s exactly the kind of content many of us aren’t interested in playing and bought this game to avoid.

And, specifically what GW1 was able to do in the past and the premise of GW2 when they said it was a game for people who don’t like MMO’s.

GW2 is just another themepark MMO. Sure, it has better graphics, but it is just another themepark MMO like WoW. It isn’t different or groundbreaking or genre changing. Everything GW2 has done has been implemented in some way in another MMO previously.

But other mmos do at least one thing well and this game does none of them well. It’s like a clusterkitten ADD theme park Korean casino grindfest.

Even the cash shop is pointless. How hard is it to actually put things people want in a cash shop?

you mean make the game pay to win? Gem shop items are vanity items only for a reason.

I’ve never seen a better example of a straw man argument than this one.

GW1: Prot Monk
GW2: Mesmer

Drew.1865:

clay.7849:

Guns and Giblets.9308:

Vayne.8563:

This isn’t true. Anet’s loyalty isn’t to the WoW playerbase. Anet’s loyalty is to keeping the game alive.

He didn’t say Anet’s loyalty was to the WoW playerbase. It’s fairly clear the meaning of his comments, in context, is that Anet had to cater to some of the impulses/desires of the same kinds of people who play WoW in order to increase game sales. Reading comprehension is hard.

And, as is turns out (and you tacitly admit), developing content that appeals to people who also like WoW is what the developers think will keep this game alive. Yet that’s exactly the kind of content many of us aren’t interested in playing and bought this game to avoid.

And, specifically what GW1 was able to do in the past and the premise of GW2 when they said it was a game for people who don’t like MMO’s.

GW2 is just another themepark MMO. Sure, it has better graphics, but it is just another themepark MMO like WoW. It isn’t different or groundbreaking or genre changing. Everything GW2 has done has been implemented in some way in another MMO previously.

But other mmos do at least one thing well and this game does none of them well. It’s like a clusterkitten ADD theme park Korean casino grindfest.

Even the cash shop is pointless. How hard is it to actually put things people want in a cash shop?

Well that is part of the problem isn’t it? This game tried so hard to make everyone like it, it gets watered down and diluted everywhere.

Guns and Giblets.9308:

Vayne.8563:

This isn’t true. Anet’s loyalty isn’t to the WoW playerbase. Anet’s loyalty is to keeping the game alive.

He didn’t say Anet’s loyalty was to the WoW playerbase. It’s fairly clear the meaning of his comments, in context, is that Anet had to cater to some of the impulses/desires of the same kinds of people who play WoW in order to increase game sales. Reading comprehension is hard.

And, as is turns out (and you tacitly admit), developing content that appeals to people who also like WoW is what the developers think will keep this game alive. Yet that’s exactly the kind of content many of us aren’t interested in playing and bought this game to avoid.

And, specifically what GW1 was able to do in the past and the premise of GW2 when they said it was a game for people who don’t like MMO’s.

GW2 is just another themepark MMO. Sure, it has better graphics, but it is just another themepark MMO like WoW. It isn’t different or groundbreaking or genre changing. Everything GW2 has done has been implemented in some way in another MMO previously.

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

Chuo.4238:

Tachenon.5270:

.

Was Ascended Gear truly in the works before the game launched? Is there any mention of Ascended Gear prior to its unveiling in November? If Ascended Gear had been mentioned in the Manifesto, how would it have affected the launch of GW2?

It was never mentioned before the Lost Shores update was mentioned. I think it was a knee-jerk reaction to a declining playerbase (normal after a couple months in any game) that backfired horribly, because they didn’t believe that all those people who didn’t want Ascended gear really meant it.

They were convinced, I believe, that the gear treadmill formula was something most players wanted.

Agreed. It seems to me that the declining player base may also be why the expansion was nixed to quickly. I doubt NCSoft wants to continue to fund an expansion for a game that failed to hold the attention of the majority of it’s original customer base.

Traditionally in MMO space, expansions are made when games aren’t doing as well. If a game is doing well, you hold off on the expansion. The idea is to get people back into the game when most people have left…and it usually works. That’s why smaller games like Perfect World keep making expansions.

Games that are doing really well hold their expansions for a time when another big game is coming out.

Your expertise on the matter is greatly appreciated. I’m glad we have someone so knowledgeable about the MMO business to tell us why and when MMO’s make expansions.

Seriously man, you don’t know any of this to be true. You’re just spouting garbage.

Uruz Six.6594:

‘Grind’ used to be plowing through repetitive content to unlock new content, as in Asian MMOs and a certain World in days of yore. Now I’ve noticed that there are those trying to redefine ‘grind’ as ‘not getting optional shinies as fast as I want them.’ Its a recurring trend I’m seeing all over.

I don’t mind grinding for shinies. In fact, I had a lot of fun doing that in GW1. However, what I don’t like is the blatant time > skill “grind” that developers added in GW2 for shinies. I don’t like that I need to run dungeon X 20+ times in order to get something, and on top of that, my time is further restricted by DR to dungeon tokens.

I liked the flexibility of being able to do multiple things to grind my gear in GW1. In GW2 I feel I am pigeon-holed into doing very specific things a specific amount of times regardless of my skill or whether I like a certain thing.

That is, IMO, the difference between my negative views on grind in GW2 and my positive views of grind in GW1.

lordkrall.7241:

clay.7849:

In the case of GW2, the manifesto was also used as a marketing tool. One which, in many people’s eyes, they did not live up to nor even tried.

That is why many people get the feeling they were lied to.

And yet anyone that actually read up a bit on the game before buying it (instead of simply watching a video of a VISION made several years earlier) they would have know fully well that there would be grind to get “cool stuff” in the game.
So they really don’t have anyone to blame but themselves, but then again, blaming ArenaNet for everything (I am surprised no one have blamed them for yesterdays bombing..) seems to be the cool thing to do on these forums.

How is one supposed to read up upon a game and know if they will like it or not? Many people bought the game simply because they liked GW1 and thought it would be an extension of that game in some way, shape or form.

Sadly, to many, it is not. So, yes, they will voice their opinions rather loudly. This is how the internet works and is the right of the consumer.

The customer is always right…

lordkrall.7241:

I am fully aware of that, since for some reason people always bring up the Manifest when they don’t like something. Funnily enough people seems to missunderstand what a manifest actually is. A manifest is not an universal truth, it is not something that is set in stone. But rather a vision of a product.

Even so what they actually say can be understood in several ways. And one of those ways is that they are talking about mandatory grind. They have also made quite a few bits of posts and interviews after this video (and before release) where they made it quite clear that grind would exist in the game, but would not be needed to stay on top.

In the case of GW2, the manifesto was also used as a marketing tool. One which, in many people’s eyes, they did not live up to nor even tried.

That is why many people get the feeling they were lied to.

Kichwas.7152:

Raising the level cap would be an amazingly good way to destroy any potential of having any customer loyalty ever again.

It’d be an ‘offense’ against the core fanbase equivalent to adding elves, tanks, and healers.

Pretty much a direct shot across the bow against everything this game is supposed to stand for.

Mike O’Brien Quote:

“In GW1 we never advanced the level cap through four campaigns/expansions. The game design didn’t allow for it. But GW2 was designed without those restrictions, and we’ve always expected that we will someday raise the level cap in GW2.”

source: http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/13tuac/im_the_studio_design_director_on_guild_wars_2_ama/

I’m surprised no one has brought this up yet. It is the intentions of the last founder of ANet still working for the company to raise the level cap at some point during GW2’s life.

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

Guns and Giblets.9308:

Vayne.8563:

What I do know is no new game is going to compare to a game that’s 7 years old, in terms of content and updates. The game needs to mature for that to happen.

Or maybe they just released it too quickly, without enough thought or resources going into many of the game mechanics and content.

Sequels are compared to their predecessors for a reason. With a similar staff, the second title in a series should build on the previous concepts and successful elements of the first title. It’s completely fair to expect much of what was learned in the first game to be applied to the second. Expectations are going to be much higher, just like they were for Diablo III as compared with Diablo II.

It is funny to me how video games are one of the only products that can be released before they are really finished, just to make a profit, and people defend that position.

I can’t think of any other industry where if you released something early, and it wasn’t really ready for public consumption, that it would get defended because the company needed to start making money. In most industries the company and the product would get absolutely torn apart by the media as well as possibly being the target of recalls, refunds or a class action lawsuit.

Just amazing really.

Video games are not MMOs. MMOs are a very specific, high risk type of video game. I wouldn’t tolerate it in most types of games, but realistically, there are going to be less MMOs as time goes on, because they just cost too much to make, compared to the risk of what you could get back. That’s why more and more iphone games are coming out. Low risk for high chance of profit. If it doesn’t work out, it’s not the end of the world. The same can’t be said for MMOs.

I wish people would start separating MMOs from other types of video games in their thought process. They really are a beast apart.

The more ambitious the MMO, the earlier it will end up having to launch, unless you have so much money up front that you can afford to hold off indefinitely. Neither NCSoft nor Anet has that kind of money.

Please tell me more of your vast knowledge of the inner workings of MMOs, NCSoft and ANet.

CLICKS.5986:

Sorry OP but your just wrong. What it really boils down to is this game holds the hand of skill-less players and makes end game a time dump not a skill/reward ratio. Those kinds of things cannot be balanced as there will ALWAYS be a best or fastest way to run a dungeon or farm an event or blah blah. Deal with it.

Blunt but true, lol.

Cero.5132:

clay.7849:

That being said, I have found some enjoyment in actually seeing how quick I can do a dungeon run. It is kind of akin to how I used to enjoy beating my best time in Banshee Boardwalk in Mario Kart 64. To me, that is the new challenge.

I guess it is just the progression I went through from not knowing the dungeon, to getting better at a dungeon, to mastering a dungeon.

I do think that if combat encounters were more fun and intrinsically rewarding, I wouldn’t care as much, but for the most part, I don’t find them to be engaging at all.

I used to have a guild group that I ran a lot of dungeons with. Not to farm but to have fun. Unfortunately they all eventually quit the game…
“The amount of easiness in the dungeons is too kitten high!”, so we thought…
So we wanted to make content more challenging. And no, we didnt try to take best times, etc.
Instead we pulled the largest amount of mobs we could! … and see whether we would survive. Later, when we already knew, how many mobs we could pull in which part of the dungeon and knew we could survive easily, we gave us a new goal: Nobody should go downstate or the “mission failed”.
Only “in the end”, shortly before most people of the guild quit, we wanted to take our all-pull-and-kill-dungeon-times. And suddenly …everyone was gone O_O

Yep, those runs were … far away from speed runs… anti-speedruns
But they were the best runs, where I had the best time and the best laughs I´ve ever had in a game.

clay.7849:

(…) once you know that DPS really does make the dungeon go faster, I don’t know why anyone would do something different just for the sake of being different.

It is not always about choosing to be different as you can see in my little story here… Well, if you bothered to read it :P
And doing something different just for the sake of being different… I know there are these kind of people but they are a minority. Most people do such hilariously stupid things like we did simply out of fun.
And I have to admit, maybe we also carried the little wish in our hearts that pulling everything would actually make the run more challenging.

If I had a guild group of friends like that, I would probably find fun in things like that as well. As it is, most everyone I knew in GW1 is gone from GW2, so I mainly PUG now. But, I can see how you guys had fun. It is the same kind of “challenge” that I have tyring to beat the timer at times, just in a different way.

Jemmi.6058:

clay.7849:

Jemmi.6058:

clay.7849:

Chuo.4238:

Tachenon.5270:

.

Was Ascended Gear truly in the works before the game launched? Is there any mention of Ascended Gear prior to its unveiling in November? If Ascended Gear had been mentioned in the Manifesto, how would it have affected the launch of GW2?

It was never mentioned before the Lost Shores update was mentioned. I think it was a knee-jerk reaction to a declining playerbase (normal after a couple months in any game) that backfired horribly, because they didn’t believe that all those people who didn’t want Ascended gear really meant it.

They were convinced, I believe, that the gear treadmill formula was something most players wanted.

Agreed. It seems to me that the declining player base may also be why the expansion was nixed to quickly. I doubt NCSoft wants to continue to fund an expansion for a game that failed to hold the attention of the majority of it’s original customer base.

There are so many assumptions here.

You do not know the gear treadmill is something most players do not want.
You do not know that adding it backfired.
You do not know that the attention of the majority of the original customer base has been lost.
You do not know that the player base is declining
You do not know that the expansion was nixed.

???? Please do not post speculation as fact.

When I said “It seems to me…” That was your cue that everything I said was my opinion.

Therefore, don’t try to challenge my opinion with your opinion. I did make assumptions that I believe to be true. It is my opinion they are true.

Based on that context, you saying that the reason for the fact the expansion is declining is because of the fact that the playerbase is declining. Your opinion was that they were linked.

It is my opinion that there was one an expansion planned. It is also my opinion that this game is losing players faster than they can retain players. It is also my opinion that because I think the game is losing players, that NCSoft nixed the expansion because it wasn’t worth making for a game that, IMO, is dying.

That is all.

Jemmi.6058:

clay.7849:

Chuo.4238:

Tachenon.5270:

.

Was Ascended Gear truly in the works before the game launched? Is there any mention of Ascended Gear prior to its unveiling in November? If Ascended Gear had been mentioned in the Manifesto, how would it have affected the launch of GW2?

It was never mentioned before the Lost Shores update was mentioned. I think it was a knee-jerk reaction to a declining playerbase (normal after a couple months in any game) that backfired horribly, because they didn’t believe that all those people who didn’t want Ascended gear really meant it.

They were convinced, I believe, that the gear treadmill formula was something most players wanted.

Agreed. It seems to me that the declining player base may also be why the expansion was nixed to quickly. I doubt NCSoft wants to continue to fund an expansion for a game that failed to hold the attention of the majority of it’s original customer base.

There are so many assumptions here.

You do not know the gear treadmill is something most players do not want.
You do not know that adding it backfired.
You do not know that the attention of the majority of the original customer base has been lost.
You do not know that the player base is declining
You do not know that the expansion was nixed.

???? Please do not post speculation as fact.

When I said “It seems to me…” That was your cue that everything I said was my opinion.

Therefore, don’t try to challenge my opinion with your opinion. I did make assumptions that I believe to be true. It is my opinion they are true.

Star Ace.5207:

clay.7849:

The bottom line is that, after playing a few dungeons, I absolutely hate going with a group where the damage in that group is geared for anything other than max damage. It just makes content take longer and more boring.

I mean no disrespect to you or your stance, but why play a game you find boring in the first place? Not every player will want to rush through content, because perhaps they enjoy the challenge (even if you think there isn’t one, to them it may be fun.) Therefore, the solution is not playing the game as fast as possible, but actually enjoying what you do-otherwise, why go through the endless CoF 1 grind towards a Legendary of a game you don’t even enjoy playing?

I am not trying to insult you at all, just giving you another take on what you seem to be doing. Feel free to play the game as you wish, just understand that “max DPS” may not be the best option for every player, because perhaps they don’t necessarily enjoy rushing through content ASAP, and find the game fun played in alternative ways (unlike you, which is fine as well.)

Though I would admit they should make alternative playstyles way more attractive, to lure “DPS minded” players away from “all DPS, all the time” group-think.

Not insulting at all, in fact, I would agree with you if I thought dungeons were more challenging than just DPSing your way through them. However, I don’t think they are.

I don’t mind helping out teams that aren’t speed runs. In fact, I do enjoy it sometimes. But, once you know that DPS really does make the dungeon go faster, I don’t know why anyone would do something different just for the sake of being different. I don’t think it makes it more challenging in the depth of content intrinsically rewarding kind of way, I think it just makes it more boring and tedious.

That being said, I have found some enjoyment in actually seeing how quick I can do a dungeon run. It is kind of akin to how I used to enjoy beating my best time in Banshee Boardwalk in Mario Kart 64. To me, that is the new challenge.

I guess it is just the progression I went through from not knowing the dungeon, to getting better at a dungeon, to mastering a dungeon.

I do think that if combat encounters were more fun and intrinsically rewarding, I wouldn’t care as much, but for the most part, I don’t find them to be engaging at all.

Chuo.4238:

Tachenon.5270:

.

Was Ascended Gear truly in the works before the game launched? Is there any mention of Ascended Gear prior to its unveiling in November? If Ascended Gear had been mentioned in the Manifesto, how would it have affected the launch of GW2?

It was never mentioned before the Lost Shores update was mentioned. I think it was a knee-jerk reaction to a declining playerbase (normal after a couple months in any game) that backfired horribly, because they didn’t believe that all those people who didn’t want Ascended gear really meant it.

They were convinced, I believe, that the gear treadmill formula was something most players wanted.

Agreed. It seems to me that the declining player base may also be why the expansion was nixed to quickly. I doubt NCSoft wants to continue to fund an expansion for a game that failed to hold the attention of the majority of it’s original customer base.

Goloith.6349:

Tbh I’m going to be much more cautious when it comes to spending $ in an MMO. I feel completely had by ANET lack of interest in their community.

I agree with you. In my opinion it is quite apparent that their greed outweighed their desire to put out a polished game that stuck to their principals as laid out from GW1 and/or “The Manifesto”.

Add GvG and other new objectives to sPvP.

Fyrebrand.4859:

Somebody should make an MMORPG with no warrior class. Wouldn’t that be something.

Then another class would take its place.

Reikou.7068:

The problem with this game is that it does not cater to “casual gamers,” but it caters to BAD and unskilled gamers.

It rewards bad and unskilled play (zerging, using MF gear, etc.) and punishes good and efficient play by anet literally banning good players who figure out the system (Snowflakes situation etc.)

Because of anet’s decision to cater to BAD players, not casual players, everything has just been reduced to a terrible grind.

Thus, instead of a situation as in GW1, where skill was the biggest deciding factor in how far a player got (at least in the beginning,) in order to cater to the lowest common denominator, the bad players, its been watered down to where time spent in-game is the biggest deciding factor in how far a player gets.

This is my opinion as well. It’s the every kid gets a medal attitude, instead of rewarding the best for the being the best.

Everything in GW2 based on time spent, not skill.

It’s not the warrior that is the problem. Even nerfing the warrior won’t change a thing. Once you learn a dungeon, berserker gear is the absolutely most efficient and best way to clear a dungeon. Warriors just amplify this because of their consistent damage output in PvE.

The bottom line is that, after playing a few dungeons, I absolutely hate going with a group where the damage in that group is geared for anything other than max damage. It just makes content take longer and more boring.

This has nothing to do with players, it has everything to do with how combat and encounters in this game are designed.

Well, this game did make me realize I prefer instanced CORPGs over persistent MMORPGs, so for that I am thankful.

RebelYell.7132:

I don’t care about being a hero. I want to influence things from behind the scenes. If EVE was a fantasy game instead of a space opera, I’d probably love it.

So much this. Can we have EVE the fantasy RPG now please?

As far as being a hero, after playing this story, I know what DOESN’T make me feel like a hero…

Guns and Giblets.9308:

Vayne.8563:

What I do know is no new game is going to compare to a game that’s 7 years old, in terms of content and updates. The game needs to mature for that to happen.

Or maybe they just released it too quickly, without enough thought or resources going into many of the game mechanics and content.

Sequels are compared to their predecessors for a reason. With a similar staff, the second title in a series should build on the previous concepts and successful elements of the first title. It’s completely fair to expect much of what was learned in the first game to be applied to the second. Expectations are going to be much higher, just like they were for Diablo III as compared with Diablo II.

It is funny to me how video games are one of the only products that can be released before they are really finished, just to make a profit, and people defend that position.

I can’t think of any other industry where if you released something early, and it wasn’t really ready for public consumption, that it would get defended because the company needed to start making money. In most industries the company and the product would get absolutely torn apart by the media as well as possibly being the target of recalls, refunds or a class action lawsuit.

Just amazing really.

gkrit.9416:

funny… i just posted a topic on why the game hasnt kept me on like the Gw1 did like many of the other have mentioned here. I hope The devs are reading these topics and actually thinking of ways to bring back the essence of Guild wars. Right now I believe many of the loyal fans of guild wars have been pushed away due to such ambitious drastic changes.

I agree gkrit. Everyone I knew from GW1 (the list is long) no longer plays GW2. It is really sad how the two games aren’t even close to being similar.

Rash.6514:

As so many has voiced, why do some people want so bad to go to trinity? Can’t you guys learn to do something different?

What is so good about different in this game? No one seems to be willing to answer that.

Ensign’s post was pretty much on the money.