Guild Wars 2

Vayne.8563:

The very skill system that was the life of Guild Wars 1, also spelled the death of Guild Wars 1. Without the ability to balance the game, content became meaningless. Those who loved the minutiae of making very complex builds loved it. Casuals found it hard, and most people just want to PVx wiki for the build of the month. Getting into a pug group for elite content without the build of the month became ridiculously hard. You played with your guild, or not at all.

The balance issues continually plagued the game. Sabway, I-way, Imbagon Paragons, discord mesmers, 600 monks, spirit spammer solo farm builds were fun for some people. But other people disliked them immensely.

There’s a price you pay for variety in a game. And Guild Wars 1 started with less skills and added as it went. Guild Wars 2 will do the same thing. It will grow in complexity as time goes on.

It will NEVER get to the kind of complexity Guild Wars 1 got to. I don’t personally see this as a bad thing. I see this as a good thing.

The skill system hardly proved the death of Guild Wars 1. To say so is just wrong.

I will say this again, the game balance in GW1 was never as imbalanced as it is in GW2 now. Also, it wasn’t the addition of new skills that hurt the balance in GW1 as much as the addition of new classes.

There was never as big of a problem in GW1 of getting in to a PUG group that isn’t on the same level of getting into a PUG group now in GW2. If you think that is the reason GW1 failed, then there is no hope for GW2 because it has the same problems – if not worse.

Also, just because there were some OP builds didn’t mean the game was unplayable. Yes, as time went on there were some that were just outrageously OP, and they got fixed quickly. However, team builds like IWAY were actually good for the game. See, now you are talking PvP which is my background. IWAY and other builds like it – provided a very easy and less complex way of getting into PvP without needing to know everything. It allowed teams a way to win and learn the mechanics of PvP without getting rolled by better teams and becoming disillusioned with the format and quitting. This is actually a good thing, because even the best IWAY teams didn’t have the requisite skills on their skillbar to hold halls or be a threat against well skilled teams. So, OP builds allowed for a low barrier of entry without hurting the high end meta. This is a GOOD thing.

Also, solo builds were fun. They didn’t hurt the game at all. Hell, GW1 probably gave you more relevant solo options than GW2 does now. At least there you could farm and make some money solo. In GW2 there is very few things that are profitable on a solo basis.

GW2 is actually needlessly complex. The trait system is a good example. A lot of it just isn’t intuitive at all.

Part of GW2’s other problem is that the redundancy of direct damage skills is boring. Although, the game is balanced around direct damage vs. direct damage, so it is also very shallow.

The beautiful thing that GW1 combat did well is that is had much more depth than GW2 does now. The balance between damage, healing/protection and utility/counters was way more balanced than GW2 ever has benn, and probably ever will be.

It is unfortunate, because the advancements that GW2 made in adding the “active” combat are actually quite fun. They are just poorly designed.

Dodging in any direction for a split second of “invulnerability” isn’t as interesting as it could be. In fact, it barely scratches the surface of interesting.

Combo fields and finishers, again, are neat, but don’t add substantial advantages, and are often best when a casual side effect instead of being something worth setting up.

I try to make myself believe that these things happened because ANet released the game before it was ready and not because they didn’t know how to make combat interesting.

Vayne.8563:

For everyone person who hates it, someone else likes it.

Proof?

I’ve done one daily this month…

RebelYell.7132:

I think the big problem with world PvE right now is that the social dynamic leads to what I call “tipping points”. Basically, either everyone wants to do an event, or no one does.

Simple example: Champions. If one or two people are around when it spawns, they typically flee, or give up after the first wipe.

This is what I think this game’s achilles heel is. The DE system is supposed to be the premiere system in this game – and it isn’t being used much. Especially in mid to higher level zones outside Orr.

This is a huge turnoff and I can see a snowball effect happening as more players turn away from DE’s (either from leaving the game or playing more “end game” content) that, in turn, makes it harder for new players to play and level their characters through DE’s.

killcannon.2576:

It’s not about beating the ai, it’s about making players log in. It’s manipulation. It’s a psychological trick.

It’s like the force, it works on the weak-minded. Other players see right through it – and as the video game playing demographic gets older and more mature, they see through it more and more.

Why do you think there was such an outcry when ascended gear was introduced? Sure, it is fine the way we have it now, but if it turned into a legitimate gear treadmill, you would see a lot of people leave.

killcannon.2576:

It’s not about beating the ai, it’s about making players log in. It’s manipulation. It’s a psychological trick.

I think we are on two different wavelengths here. You are saying that the horizontal progression in GW1 was an illusion and that it was vertical because it helped making killing enemies easier.

This isn’t true until someone has figures out how to exploit the AI through a series of specific builds, etc.

This is something that is an emergent flaw in AI, not something that is an argument of why something was vertical or horizontal progression.

People use that same point to make all kinds of points about GW1 that aren’t true – except in the context of exploiting enemy AI, which is a not a problem with skills as much as it is a problem with enemy AI being exploitable.

killcannon.2576:

I don’t think the FPS discussion is winnable by either side, had it a month back or so with some friends and came to an impasse. One argument goes “Real world guns, which some fps games model their weapons after, have definite, and measurable advantages to one another. these can’t, or won’t, always be modeled by the games they are in” Counterpoint is “Then the argument is moot”. Another is that you can google best FPS weapon for certain games, and in certain games they are unlocked, in others they aren’t. I can’t really argue and win it, so I will give you non mmo fps games have horizontal progression sometimes. MMOFPS or third person, does have vertical progression for weapons. Horizontal works great for pvp, but not so much pve. One of the best selling fps games, Borderlands, relies heavily on illusory vertical progression. It’s also why you don’t see huge drawn out pve parts of most shooters that don’t have either a strong story or vertical prog. Without the skill challenge of other players, it boils down to shoot same mob in head with same weapon one million times.

GW1, again…. as I was stating earlier, that game has the illusion of horizontal progression, because the pve parts of it were made easier by having certain skills or just couldn’t be completed unless you had certain skills. This is shallow vertical progression which gives the illusion of horizontal. certain skills just made the game better or easier to play. This is also a form of gating, ie “Want to get here? You need this this and this that you get from here”

One thing that GW2 needs that GW1 never did, or didn’t need as much of, especially later, was concurrent pve players to sell the idea of a living populated world. To get a living populated world, you need a carrot (and an exceedingly simple, non time consuming to make one) that keeps players in your world. Enter vertical progression and the treadmill. One thing that horizontal can’t do is make you feel like you need it. It’s great to have in your game because it make people happy and less stressed, but it doesn’t make people log in everyday. And as a mmo, you need to, otherwise you’re dead.

I have nothing against horizontal progression, or games with that mechanic in it. I do hate the treadmills of other mmorpgs and it’s one reason why I am here. But it’s hard to make people log in to your pve game concurrently without a hook. Horizontal makes players happy, but it’s no hook for pve.

I think the PvE argument is a bad one, because there will always be a best way to beat AI once your figure out how to do it. This shouldn’t be used to prove anything, IMO.

Jemmi.6058:

RebelYell.7132:

Jemmi.6058:

clay.7849:

Jemmi.6058:

clay.7849:

Jemmi.6058:

Einlanzer.1627:

There will come a point in time, soon, where horizontal progress is deemed objectively superior, at least for an MMO.

How do you define superior?

If it is based on most entertaining, that is by its very nature subjective

If it is based on sales, then I doubt horizontal will be considered superior anytime soon. Very few if any games are entirely horizontal (even GW2 which has a lot of horizontal is still largely vertical). That, and as you said, WoW is largely vertically oriented and it is the MMO leader by far (for player and money count).

But, it isn’t subjective. You can’t just lump everything in entertainment as subjective. There are objective logical truths to some things, regardless of some people not liking it or preferring the alternative.

It is either subjective or objective. To be objective, there must be an absence of personal opinion or bias. Entertainment is inherently based on personal preference and therefore is subjective. To be objective in the entertainment industry, you must set objective targets. For example, it is subjective to say that Batman The Dark Night is superior to Batman Begins. However, it is objective to say Batman The Dark Night sold more at the box office.

Back to what I posted, one option is subjective and one is objective.

Music is often based on subjective preference, but there are still objectives truths about what makes music good.

I think you may have to be more specific on that. I do not think you can say that there are objective truths on what make music good. I am willing to be proven wrong if you can elaborate? My reasoning is that ‘good music’ is subjective, and therefore all truths about what makes good music are subjective.

You could write a computer program that analyzes a piece of sheet music and tells you if it’s cacophonous, or doesn’t stay in a key consistently. Sure, you could say its possible to like it when songs behave like that, just as much as its “possible” to build a car with square wheels.

Cacophonous is an unpleasant sound which is a preference, which is subjective. What qualifies as Cacophonous is subjective, in other words.

Objectively, you could state a sound is high pitched, but you cannot objectively say whether the high pitch qualifies as good music.

Anyway, we are going off topic, and I am sorry for that.

Back to the main topic. The OP wants the player to change, but it’d be a poor business strategy for ANet to expect that. However, it is fine for you to suggest this to players and see if anyone comes along. I think that this game is great, because it allows people to play how they want. Some want to farm materials, some want to run fractals, some want to PvP and some want to run Dynamic Events (and many other things). To each their own.

I agree 100% that it is ridiculous to think that it is the player’s faults that they don’t play the game the way ANet intended us to play the game – just like it would be ridiculous if pizza makers intended us to start with the crust and we all start on the opposite side.

It is no one’s fault, least of all, the player’s for doing what they want to do.

RebelYell.7132:

Jemmi.6058:

clay.7849:

Jemmi.6058:

clay.7849:

Jemmi.6058:

Einlanzer.1627:

There will come a point in time, soon, where horizontal progress is deemed objectively superior, at least for an MMO.

How do you define superior?

If it is based on most entertaining, that is by its very nature subjective

If it is based on sales, then I doubt horizontal will be considered superior anytime soon. Very few if any games are entirely horizontal (even GW2 which has a lot of horizontal is still largely vertical). That, and as you said, WoW is largely vertically oriented and it is the MMO leader by far (for player and money count).

But, it isn’t subjective. You can’t just lump everything in entertainment as subjective. There are objective logical truths to some things, regardless of some people not liking it or preferring the alternative.

It is either subjective or objective. To be objective, there must be an absence of personal opinion or bias. Entertainment is inherently based on personal preference and therefore is subjective. To be objective in the entertainment industry, you must set objective targets. For example, it is subjective to say that Batman The Dark Night is superior to Batman Begins. However, it is objective to say Batman The Dark Night sold more at the box office.

Back to what I posted, one option is subjective and one is objective.

Music is often based on subjective preference, but there are still objectives truths about what makes music good.

I think you may have to be more specific on that. I do not think you can say that there are objective truths on what make music good. I am willing to be proven wrong if you can elaborate? My reasoning is that ‘good music’ is subjective, and therefore all truths about what makes good music are subjective.

You could write a computer program that analyzes a piece of sheet music and tells you if it’s cacophonous, or doesn’t stay in a key consistently. Sure, you could say its possible to like it when songs behave like that, just as much as its “possible” to build a car with square wheels.

Yes, unfortunately, it is a double edged sword because much of what we want to talk about is going to bring in the fact that it is experienced by humans, and without the “experiential” part of anything it ceases to become important. Therefore, it does look like everything we interact with is subject to subjective reasoning. However, I would ask you this:

Does it hurt when you get hit with a hammer in the knee? It is a subjective thing to be sure, but we all know that getting hit in the knee with a hammer almost always causes pain, so it would be a bit fallacious to say that someone, given normal health, wouldn’t experience pain when getting hit with a hammer.

Same thing with music. We know that music with harmony is objectively “more pleasant” than music without harmony – and especially compared to music that is discordant.

Of course, it is easy to dismiss it by saying that you don’t think so. But, I am willing to bet, that we can even find scientific studies of the brain that confirm that some things stimulate our brain better than other things.

Is this objectively better? I would say yes. Of course, really we are getting into a long and never ending philosophical battle that has been waged for centuries, so it is no place for us to try and figure it out on these forums.

Jemmi.6058:

clay.7849:

Jemmi.6058:

Einlanzer.1627:

There will come a point in time, soon, where horizontal progress is deemed objectively superior, at least for an MMO.

How do you define superior?

If it is based on most entertaining, that is by its very nature subjective

If it is based on sales, then I doubt horizontal will be considered superior anytime soon. Very few if any games are entirely horizontal (even GW2 which has a lot of horizontal is still largely vertical). That, and as you said, WoW is largely vertically oriented and it is the MMO leader by far (for player and money count).

But, it isn’t subjective. You can’t just lump everything in entertainment as subjective. There are objective logical truths to some things, regardless of some people not liking it or preferring the alternative.

It is either subjective or objective. To be objective, there must be an absence of personal opinion or bias. Entertainment is inherently based on personal preference and therefore is subjective. To be objective in the entertainment industry, you must set objective targets. For example, it is subjective to say that Batman The Dark Night is superior to Batman Begins. However, it is objective to say Batman The Dark Night sold more at the box office.

Back to what I posted, one option is subjective and one is objective.

Music is often based on subjective preference, but there are still objectives truths about what makes music good.

killcannon.2576:

clay.7849:

killcannon.2576:

Einlanzer.1627:

killcannon.2576:

Einlanzer.1627:

killcannon.2576:

clay.7849:

Jemmi.6058:

Einlanzer.1627:

What is “meaningful progression”, exactly? Inflating your stats incrementally to match the new mobs in the new dungeon you have to run over and over? This is an illusion, and a bad one.

News flash. Everything in games are illusions. None of it is actually happening.

As for progression, gaining stats to become more strong to take on new content is actually progression.

Not gaining stats so that your character remains stagnant is not progression.

The argument is that you gain skill, so your character is stronger because you are better.
Counter argument is that you gain skill in both models. Another counter argument is that you are role playing a character, and adding stats is a form of representing progression for your role played character.

Way to completely miss the mark on the illusion thing. And, the argument isn’t that you gain skill – its that you gain stats. Gaining skills or things that require more skill would be a generally good example of horizontal progression, which is generally accepted as the better option of the two.

Your whole argument is flawed because where you use the word skill, it should be replaced with “stats”. And that has nothing to do with skill.

Curious, how are these new skills different than your old skills? Do they offer easier ways of dealing with content? Would having these skills put you in a better position than people who do not have these skills?

In a sense, yes, because they expand your versatility. They just might not give you an immediate “I win” button, which is desirable as it forces you to rely on actual skill, rather than your characters stats, which makes the game both more engaging and more realistic.

If you can’t see that that’s superior game design, I just don’t know what else to tell you.

You just described the current system in place. Thank you.

And? Did you think I was complaining about the system?

Progression models are about dealing with content that is appropriate to skill or stats. Adding skills that make content easier or only being able to complete certain content with certain skills, is a form of vertical progression. The forum hears from players that say they want a “horizontal” progression, when it isn’t actually horizontal. It’s a shallow grade vertical. It’s horizontal illusion in other words, just different than the normal illusion of vertical progression. Unless a character has all they need to 100% complete a game at creation, there is vertical progression, this includes any skills they may acquire as they progress throughout the game.

That’s why horizontal shouldn’t be about making things easier. It should be about adding things that are more interesting. Or, by creating something that takes more skill but is more efficient.

I agree, adding badly designed horizontal progression is just vertical progression in disguise – but that is not the case for everything that is deemed horizontal.

This is where I ask for pertinent examples of horizontal progression games in either rpg or mmo genres.

Not saying true horizontal is bad, but I don’t see many examples of it doing well in the genre.

This post, a few up, has some examples: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/A-call-to-action-emergent-play-getting-the-most-out-of-GW2/page/2#post1861100

Also, I know it isn’t MMO’s, but FPS games are great at this. As you play the game, you get progressively different gear. None of it is “better” than what you start with. In fact, a lot of starter gear is still considered the best gear in a lot of FPS games.

The same could be done with MMO’s if you went about it the right way. Like, what if you had to complete a series of quests in order to unlock each new weapon in GW2 instead of just being able to buy them off the trader? Of course, I’m sure someone could come up with something better.

Jemmi.6058:

Einlanzer.1627:

There will come a point in time, soon, where horizontal progress is deemed objectively superior, at least for an MMO.

How do you define superior?

If it is based on most entertaining, that is by its very nature subjective

If it is based on sales, then I doubt horizontal will be considered superior anytime soon. Very few if any games are entirely horizontal (even GW2 which has a lot of horizontal is still largely vertical). That, and as you said, WoW is largely vertically oriented and it is the MMO leader by far (for player and money count).

But, it isn’t subjective. You can’t just lump everything in entertainment as subjective. There are objective logical truths to some things, regardless of some people not liking it or preferring the alternative.

killcannon.2576:

Einlanzer.1627:

killcannon.2576:

Einlanzer.1627:

killcannon.2576:

clay.7849:

Jemmi.6058:

Einlanzer.1627:

What is “meaningful progression”, exactly? Inflating your stats incrementally to match the new mobs in the new dungeon you have to run over and over? This is an illusion, and a bad one.

News flash. Everything in games are illusions. None of it is actually happening.

As for progression, gaining stats to become more strong to take on new content is actually progression.

Not gaining stats so that your character remains stagnant is not progression.

The argument is that you gain skill, so your character is stronger because you are better.
Counter argument is that you gain skill in both models. Another counter argument is that you are role playing a character, and adding stats is a form of representing progression for your role played character.

Way to completely miss the mark on the illusion thing. And, the argument isn’t that you gain skill – its that you gain stats. Gaining skills or things that require more skill would be a generally good example of horizontal progression, which is generally accepted as the better option of the two.

Your whole argument is flawed because where you use the word skill, it should be replaced with “stats”. And that has nothing to do with skill.

Curious, how are these new skills different than your old skills? Do they offer easier ways of dealing with content? Would having these skills put you in a better position than people who do not have these skills?

In a sense, yes, because they expand your versatility. They just might not give you an immediate “I win” button, which is desirable as it forces you to rely on actual skill, rather than your characters stats, which makes the game both more engaging and more realistic.

If you can’t see that that’s superior game design, I just don’t know what else to tell you.

You just described the current system in place. Thank you.

And? Did you think I was complaining about the system?

Progression models are about dealing with content that is appropriate to skill or stats. Adding skills that make content easier or only being able to complete certain content with certain skills, is a form of vertical progression. The forum hears from players that say they want a “horizontal” progression, when it isn’t actually horizontal. It’s a shallow grade vertical. It’s horizontal illusion in other words, just different than the normal illusion of vertical progression. Unless a character has all they need to 100% complete a game at creation, there is vertical progression, this includes any skills they may acquire as they progress throughout the game.

That’s why horizontal shouldn’t be about making things easier. It should be about adding things that are more interesting. Or, by creating something that takes more skill but is more efficient.

I agree, adding badly designed horizontal progression is just vertical progression in disguise – but that is not the case for everything that is deemed horizontal.

ScottBroChill.3254:

I say any argument about gw1 that includes things from Eye of the North should be dismissed. That is when they were testing ideas they wanted to include in gw2 and for the most part ruined a lot of the fun of the game. It was a scrapped mess that they released so people wouldn’t be upset about losing out on the Utopia expansion and in the end added more problems and ruined every other part of the game besides Eye of the North.

I agree 100%. The game was practically unplayable after EOTN, IMO.

theguildless.1386:

I am afraid you need to take this post with a grain of salt. First off, it states that there were no consumables in GW1, which is completely false:

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Conset

Those consumables have a much bigger impact on the game in my opinion than those you find in GW2. Many speed clear builds (like DoA Glaiveway or Trenchway) relied on those consets to actually work thanks to cooldown reduction and very valuable stat boosts.

Moreover, stating that you could do dungeons without a healer is something I don’t believe. I have played GW1 for many years and am genuinely interested in seeing proof of that as I’ve never heard of this happen (unless you’re talking about solo farming a specific part of a dungeon). Looking up the current team builds on gwpvx.com, they still feature a dedicated healer or bonder.

So yeah, it’s not quite accurate.

While not dungeon runs, IWAY and Bloodspike were both prominent PvP group builds at one point that had no monks and were fairly effective.

Einlanzer.1627:

clay.7849:

killcannon.2576:

clay.7849:

Jemmi.6058:

Einlanzer.1627:

What is “meaningful progression”, exactly? Inflating your stats incrementally to match the new mobs in the new dungeon you have to run over and over? This is an illusion, and a bad one.

News flash. Everything in games are illusions. None of it is actually happening.

As for progression, gaining stats to become more strong to take on new content is actually progression.

Not gaining stats so that your character remains stagnant is not progression.

The argument is that you gain skill, so your character is stronger because you are better.
Counter argument is that you gain skill in both models. Another counter argument is that you are role playing a character, and adding stats is a form of representing progression for your role played character.

Way to completely miss the mark on the illusion thing. And, the argument isn’t that you gain skill – its that you gain stats. Gaining skills or things that require more skill would be a generally good example of horizontal progression, which is generally accepted as the better option of the two.

Your whole argument is flawed because where you use the word skill, it should be replaced with “stats”. And that has nothing to do with skill.

Curious, how are these new skills different than your old skills? Do they offer easier ways of dealing with content? Would having these skills put you in a better position than people who do not have these skills?

I’m not sure what skills you are referring to. We are talking about gear grind. As such, we aren’t talking about skills. It is kind of the whole point here.

However, the idea behind adding vertical progression is to add depth or variety – hopefully without adding complexity.

It does neither, in fact it does the opposite. It does nothing for depth and actively removes variety. I don’t see how people can’t see this. Look at WoW. How much content can you meaningfully participate in in WoW out of its total available content? How much content exists in WoW that is 100% obsolete? Let me tell you – the entire end game of Vanilla, BC, Lich King, and Cataclysm. Even when you level a new character, it’s all bypassed because it’s useless. The only thing that isn’t useless is the most recent content. This is what having a gear grind does to a game.

There will come a point in time, soon, where horizontal progress is deemed objectively superior, at least for an MMO.

Nope. I mean to say horizontal. My bad. Fixing now.

Jemmi.6058:

I believe it may be in your best interest to work on your reading comprehension. I also suggest that you accept that different people have different opinions about progression. I accept that you prefer horizontal and that is fine, but don’t tell me that I am wrong for preferring vertical progression.

But you are wrong if you think it is beneficial to the game, because it adds power creep. I’ll leave this here for you.

killcannon.2576:

clay.7849:

Jemmi.6058:

Einlanzer.1627:

What is “meaningful progression”, exactly? Inflating your stats incrementally to match the new mobs in the new dungeon you have to run over and over? This is an illusion, and a bad one.

News flash. Everything in games are illusions. None of it is actually happening.

As for progression, gaining stats to become more strong to take on new content is actually progression.

Not gaining stats so that your character remains stagnant is not progression.

The argument is that you gain skill, so your character is stronger because you are better.
Counter argument is that you gain skill in both models. Another counter argument is that you are role playing a character, and adding stats is a form of representing progression for your role played character.

Way to completely miss the mark on the illusion thing. And, the argument isn’t that you gain skill – its that you gain stats. Gaining skills or things that require more skill would be a generally good example of horizontal progression, which is generally accepted as the better option of the two.

Your whole argument is flawed because where you use the word skill, it should be replaced with “stats”. And that has nothing to do with skill.

Curious, how are these new skills different than your old skills? Do they offer easier ways of dealing with content? Would having these skills put you in a better position than people who do not have these skills?

I’m not sure what skills you are referring to. We are talking about gear grind. As such, we aren’t talking about skills. It is kind of the whole point here.

However, the idea behind adding vertical horizontal progression is to add depth or variety – hopefully without adding complexity.

GW1 skill capping is a good example. Each skill allowed you to do something pretty much different than any of your other skills. It provided another interesting choice when build making, while often not creating any kind of new mechanic that created more complexity.

Another example would be weapon swapping. This isn’t even something that is hindered by levels or anything – it is just the progression of your skill as you played teh game, but it did add complexity. Many competitive PvP players used various weapon swaps to enhance what they needed to do. Here are some examples:

- High Energy Set – Allowed you to access up to 70+ energy on a caster temporarily, while being able to switch back to a normal or low energy set to get back to your normal 4 ticks of energy regen.

- Low energy set – Allowed you to “hide” energy from e-denial.

- Adrenaline Set – Allowed you to build adrenaline before switching to a 15^50 or vamp set for spiking.

EDIT: Fixed strikethrough.

cletiscake.9173:

Here is the link to the original post in the other forum (mmo-champion.com). Every post is numbered on this forum, and you can see the number of the post in the top right hand corner of every post. The mod’s name is Fencers, and her post is #490 on page 25 of the thread. Verdict on Guild Wars 2’s innovations

Thanks! Very interesting read.

Einlanzer.1627:

clay.7849:

Jemmi.6058:

Einlanzer.1627:

What is “meaningful progression”, exactly? Inflating your stats incrementally to match the new mobs in the new dungeon you have to run over and over? This is an illusion, and a bad one.

News flash. Everything in games are illusions. None of it is actually happening.

As for progression, gaining stats to become more strong to take on new content is actually progression.

Not gaining stats so that your character remains stagnant is not progression.

The argument is that you gain skill, so your character is stronger because you are better.
Counter argument is that you gain skill in both models. Another counter argument is that you are role playing a character, and adding stats is a form of representing progression for your role played character.

Way to completely miss the mark on the illusion thing. And, the argument isn’t that you gain skill – its that you gain stats. Gaining skills or things that require more skill would be a generally good example of horizontal progression, which is generally accepted as the better option of the two.

Your whole argument is flawed because where you use the word skill, it should be replaced with “stats”. And that has nothing to do with skill.

Thanks for beating me to it.

Any time.

Star Ace.5207:

clay.7849:

Either, Ascended Gear is useful and desirable or it is not useful and shouldn’t be in the game.

Vayne is trying to say that Ascended Gear is both useless but has a purpose in the game. I don’t think you can have it both ways.

It is only “useless” in the sense that it isn’t required-wanting something isn’t the same as needing it. To that effect, Legendaries are also “useless”, but some people like them so they work, farm, and/or buy them. They have a purpose in game-giving the illusion of “progression” that many players crave.

But Vayne wasn’t saying that, he was saying that he believes that Ascended Gear’s stats don’t actually help you to win a fight.

If that is all that we equate gear to do, besides looking pretty, then it is useless if the stat gain doesn’t help you win a fight, which is what Vayne is implying.

Otherwise, I generally agree with what you are saying.

Jemmi.6058:

Einlanzer.1627:

What is “meaningful progression”, exactly? Inflating your stats incrementally to match the new mobs in the new dungeon you have to run over and over? This is an illusion, and a bad one.

News flash. Everything in games are illusions. None of it is actually happening.

As for progression, gaining stats to become more strong to take on new content is actually progression.

Not gaining stats so that your character remains stagnant is not progression.

The argument is that you gain skill, so your character is stronger because you are better.
Counter argument is that you gain skill in both models. Another counter argument is that you are role playing a character, and adding stats is a form of representing progression for your role played character.

Way to completely miss the mark on the illusion thing. And, the argument isn’t that you gain skill – its that you gain stats. Gaining skills or things that require more skill would be a generally good example of horizontal progression, which is generally accepted as the better option of the two.

Your whole argument is flawed because where you use the word skill, it should be replaced with “stats”. And that has nothing to do with skill.

Can you link to the original post in the other forum? Thanks!

Krosslite.1950:

Neural.1824:

Krosslite.1950:

A call to action: emergent play

Eve Online is that way —->

EVE is an offer rated dying game that has no comparison to GW2 imo

http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/02/28/eve-online-hits-500-000-subscribers-heads-into-second-decade/

Their subs keep going up for a dying game. Funny how that works.

Mirta.5029:

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

I said people use it as an excuse to excuse the fact that they lost. The implication is that they lost and would have lost anyway.

Which means that you think Ascended Gear wouldn’t have made a difference in them winning, which means it is useless.

If something isn’t going to help you win – and if winning is the only reason to use it – then it becomes useless.

in that case exotics are useless as well, because a skilled player in greens can beat a person in exotics. It’s not useless, because it DOES boost your stats, but this game isn’t all about stats meaning that no matter how much stats you pile on yourself you can still lose.

I’m not arguing against any of that.

I’m saying that one can’t switch their opinion merely to stay on the side of the argument they want.

Either, Ascended Gear is useful and desirable or it is not useful and shouldn’t be in the game.

Vayne is trying to say that Ascended Gear is both useless but has a purpose in the game. I don’t think you can have it both ways.

The OP clearly hasn’t made any sacrifices to the gem store lately, and the game is punishing him now. :P

(It’s just a joke….)

Neural.1824:

Krosslite.1950:

A call to action: emergent play

Eve Online is that way —->

Best post yet.

ProtoGunner.4953:

Here comes the point: Games can’t be for everyone. It simply can’t.

This would be good advice for ANet. At some point they need to decide who they want to make this game for. Trying to design it for everyone is leaving a bad taste in many people’s mouths.

Vayne.8563:

I said people use it as an excuse to excuse the fact that they lost. The implication is that they lost and would have lost anyway.

Which means that you think Ascended Gear wouldn’t have made a difference in them winning, which means it is useless.

If something isn’t going to help you win – and if winning is the only reason to use it – then it becomes useless.

Vayne.8563:

Are you saying people didn’t want higher stats. They actually probably wanted a lot more than Anet gave them, but Anet gave them just enough. Enough to keep them busy while they worked on other stuff. Not enough to ruin the game for guys like me.

So when you said the following, you didn’t mean it?

But you can’t prove and have no idea if you’re going to win a battle you would have lost or if you’d still have lost the battle.
As far as I’m concerned, ascended gear is most often used as an excuse for one someone was beaten in 1v1, even though they have no actual clue whether the person they’re fighting is in rares or exotics, or has ascended jewelry.

You can’t have it both ways. Either Ascended gear is beneficial and useful in winning a battle or it isn’t.

You like to say it isn’t useful when people say that they need to grind for it in WvW – but then when asked why put something in the game that isn’t useful, you make a long post about how it is useful.

Either it is – and it is a reasonable problem for people wanted to use it in WvW to have no good way to get access to it – or it isn’t useful – and therefore shouldn’t be in the game.

Which is it?

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

LoneWolfie.1852:

Vayne.8563:

Faster completion by how much? Do you have any idea? Do you know what percentage of the playerbase cares about completing something 1 minute or 2 minutes sooner.

Yes, there are a some hard core farmers who care. I say let them care. I’m pretty sure that the largest percentage of the playerbase isn’t stressed by this.

If you are…okay. Doesn’t phase me at all. I’m playing the game and enjoying myself.

BTW, I have ascended gear on a single character and a number of alts. I think I’d need stop watch to see a difference.

Erm, I don’t really need a stopwatch to see how much ascended works in WvW. I have 3 ascended items and I already noticed a difference in my burst damage attacks.

But you can’t prove and have no idea if you’re going to win a battle you would have lost or if you’d still have lost the battle.

As far as I’m concerned, ascended gear is most often used as an excuse for one someone was beaten in 1v1, even though they have no actual clue whether the person they’re fighting is in rares or exotics, or has ascended jewelry.

So why did the developers take the time to make Ascended Gear that in your opinion, is not beneficial?

Wouldn’t it have been better to have either made gear that is useful or to have focused their attention elsewhere?

Yet another example of bad time and resource management by ANet by making something that has no benefit in the game.

We’ve been over this and over this and you’ve already asked me this question and I’ve already answered. It was called a compromise. It gave the people who wanted that kind of progression something to do without jeopardizing the rest of the game in the process. They could have not put it in, but I bet you the player population would be lower today than it would have been otherwise. I can’t prove that, of course, but I deeply believe it.

Some people left over it, but far more people stayed and more people joined. So yeah, it was a compromise. The people who need hard core gear grind won’t stay anyway, but many others who just need something to work for will.

Who were the people that wanted progression through gear that didn’t add any value to their stats as you are implying they don’t?

I mean you have to understand that, based on your argument, ascended gear is worthless. Therefore, who would want a worthless gear progression?

I don’t see that as a compromise, I see that as lazy.

Calae.1738:

You’re bored because the game is easy. There’s no challenge. When something is challenging; you have to spend time to practice; refine tactics to learn new skills.

GW2 is like a disneyland type of playground where everyone gets a medal. It’s completely normal to get bored of this.

This is exactly true. Why bother doing dungeons? We’ll give you better chests than any dungeon chests for killing world bosses in newbie starting areas! Yay!

Vayne.8563:

Mathias.9657:

It’s already a carbon copy in terms of grind, thanks to vertical stat progression that was added. May as well go the extra mile and put in raids if you ask me. I would have liked if this game was much more like GW1 but it obviously isn’t going that route, just to put that out there. I don’t want a WoW2 but hey we already got the grind, why not better and bigger raid dungeons for end-game that uses 10 players instead of 5.

Dungeons are just used to grind, a big enough raid wouldn’t even allow you to, if it had enough boss progression it would take up a lot of players time (a good thing) instead of just repeating it over and over. Add some difficulty, cool rewards, and people will flock. And no 1shot mechanics are not what I call entertaining difficulty (hint hint ANet)

Nothing more rewarding in this game than downing a boss and getting blues out of it /sarcasm

I think you should look up carbon copy in the dictionary. I’m not sure it means what you think it means.

This game may indeed have some vertical progression in it, but comparing it to other games with vertical progression, anyone actually looking could see the vast differences.

Maybe you haven’t actually played those other games, and you’re a Guild Wars 1 player, who talks about them as if he had. I’ve played those others game. There’s no way anyone could actually say this game is a carbon copy of them, or even very similar.

In Rift, back when I played, I had to do certain dungeons in order to get the gear to do the next dungeon, or raid. You did one till you were completely geared up, then you did the next one. Want to know why? Because the game didn’t allow you to queue for a dungeon if you didn’t have the requisite gear.

During the leveling process in Rift, you had certain stats. When you reached level cap they added a NEW stat for each profession. One that didn’t exist while you were leveling. For casters it was focus. For tanks it was toughness. For melee classes it was “to hit”. Those had to be increased only by gear gotten from running specific dungeons. If you didn’t have that gear when you went to the LFG tool, which is how people formed parties, it would check to make sure you had that gear, or you couldn’t queue.

How can anyone say this mild vertical gear progression like that?

But hat was your choice to do that content. Just like in GW2. No one made you do it. You didn’t need to do it. It was your choice.

Not that different. Certainly nothing ground breaking. Most of the functionality is used to dumb down mechanics that were much more skill based in GW1.

Did you ever swap weapons in GW1 Vayne? Ever have a negative energy and a high energy set? Prolly not, eh?

Vayne.8563:

LoneWolfie.1852:

Vayne.8563:

Faster completion by how much? Do you have any idea? Do you know what percentage of the playerbase cares about completing something 1 minute or 2 minutes sooner.

Yes, there are a some hard core farmers who care. I say let them care. I’m pretty sure that the largest percentage of the playerbase isn’t stressed by this.

If you are…okay. Doesn’t phase me at all. I’m playing the game and enjoying myself.

BTW, I have ascended gear on a single character and a number of alts. I think I’d need stop watch to see a difference.

Erm, I don’t really need a stopwatch to see how much ascended works in WvW. I have 3 ascended items and I already noticed a difference in my burst damage attacks.

But you can’t prove and have no idea if you’re going to win a battle you would have lost or if you’d still have lost the battle.

As far as I’m concerned, ascended gear is most often used as an excuse for one someone was beaten in 1v1, even though they have no actual clue whether the person they’re fighting is in rares or exotics, or has ascended jewelry.

So why did the developers take the time to make Ascended Gear that in your opinion, is not beneficial?

Wouldn’t it have been better to have either made gear that is useful or to have focused their attention elsewhere?

Yet another example of bad time and resource management by ANet by making something that has no benefit in the game.

Jski.6180:

clay.7849:

Jski.6180:

clay.7849:

Jski.6180:

clay.7849:

Jski.6180:

clay.7849:

Jski.6180:

clay.7849:

Nah, is rather come here and voice my problems with the game. Besides I paid $60 to do so.

Really I don’t hate the game, I’m just disappointed. And everytime someone tells me it’s my problem or that I haven’t played it enough, I’m just gonna go into hate mode because there is no point in having a conversation with fanboys who freak out every time someone has something negative to say.

And it’s my right to express my disappointment on the forums and to keep annoying you with my opinions as long as I don’t get banned.

Personally, if I were you, I would stop replying to my posts. You guys would probably be a lot happier and threads wouldn’t end up getting derailed.

Just let me have my opinion in peace without tying to tell me I’m wrong.

Like you say – easy peasy.

But your coming from a point of view that has no base to it. I looked i cant find you any where on the leader boards but with what your saying you should be there at least in spvp but your not so… PIC OR IT DID NOT HAPPEN.

What are you 12? My point of view had plenty of base to it, just noting you agree with or want to hear. Get over yourself man. This game just isn’t that good unless you’re a carebear or like to grind your face off for digital loot. Certainly there is very little intrinsic reward to this game as it relates to anything challenging.

If you find it so easy then you should show up that all unless your making your view on an incomplete pic flawed data that you “feel” is not. Yes your point of view is that of some one who saying “every thing some one else has done is easy because i did it too.”

Yes that is what I’m saying. I don’t find this game nearly as challenging and intrinsically rewarding as it’s predecessor. I’m sorry you don’t like that I feel that way and want to take it out on me. Perhaps you just don’t like that I think this game could be more challenging because you wouldn’t be able to play it then.

I truly think you have not done every thing is what i am getting at your point of view to call the game not challenging at any point if flawed.
Was GW1 hard when you could do any event with npc? Was it hard to work out near exploitation of combos until they nerfed it? I think your living in the past and nothing will be in your view as challenging as something you played in what i presume youth because you where YOUNGER then you are now so you where LEARNING a new way to play but now that you have some idea what is going on things SHOULD be easier.

I played HA and GvG. I imagine you didn’t. That is our difference. PvE content was much more challenging though as well.

I understand that but i think because it was the first time playing a game from Anet made it harder because you where learning it still. GW2 you can have GvG its a lot harder to set up but you can pull it off. That and in GW2 you must kill each person 2 times and if you die as a player you may “save” ppl on the other team. Also every person in GW2 can self heal some better then others but they still can. In effect every hero in GW2 is a full pt from GW1. Its the different between being just another grunt who can do one job vs a full team in one person who has high tech equipment that helps them do more.

Oh there’s a ghostly hero somewhere? And a flag stand? And good team combat? And… Oh that’s right, there’s no GvG.

Listing a bunch of game mechanics and saying they are better doesn’t mean they are.

But they ARE different and new for mmorpgs and mmorpgs from here on are the better for GW2 bring them to gaming. There is good team combat because there are true combos there IS GvG you just do not want to make player made event as being part of the game THEY ARE.

You make me laugh. So headstrong to make your point that you say there is GvG and sPvP is good and better than GW1. Do you honestly believe all that? The majority don’t. How do I know? Because GvG doesn’t exist and sPvP is all but dead.

The things people say…. Lol

Jski.6180:

clay.7849:

Jski.6180:

clay.7849:

Jski.6180:

clay.7849:

Jski.6180:

clay.7849:

Nah, is rather come here and voice my problems with the game. Besides I paid $60 to do so.

Really I don’t hate the game, I’m just disappointed. And everytime someone tells me it’s my problem or that I haven’t played it enough, I’m just gonna go into hate mode because there is no point in having a conversation with fanboys who freak out every time someone has something negative to say.

And it’s my right to express my disappointment on the forums and to keep annoying you with my opinions as long as I don’t get banned.

Personally, if I were you, I would stop replying to my posts. You guys would probably be a lot happier and threads wouldn’t end up getting derailed.

Just let me have my opinion in peace without tying to tell me I’m wrong.

Like you say – easy peasy.

But your coming from a point of view that has no base to it. I looked i cant find you any where on the leader boards but with what your saying you should be there at least in spvp but your not so… PIC OR IT DID NOT HAPPEN.

What are you 12? My point of view had plenty of base to it, just noting you agree with or want to hear. Get over yourself man. This game just isn’t that good unless you’re a carebear or like to grind your face off for digital loot. Certainly there is very little intrinsic reward to this game as it relates to anything challenging.

If you find it so easy then you should show up that all unless your making your view on an incomplete pic flawed data that you “feel” is not. Yes your point of view is that of some one who saying “every thing some one else has done is easy because i did it too.”

Yes that is what I’m saying. I don’t find this game nearly as challenging and intrinsically rewarding as it’s predecessor. I’m sorry you don’t like that I feel that way and want to take it out on me. Perhaps you just don’t like that I think this game could be more challenging because you wouldn’t be able to play it then.

I truly think you have not done every thing is what i am getting at your point of view to call the game not challenging at any point if flawed.
Was GW1 hard when you could do any event with npc? Was it hard to work out near exploitation of combos until they nerfed it? I think your living in the past and nothing will be in your view as challenging as something you played in what i presume youth because you where YOUNGER then you are now so you where LEARNING a new way to play but now that you have some idea what is going on things SHOULD be easier.

I played HA and GvG. I imagine you didn’t. That is our difference. PvE content was much more challenging though as well.

I understand that but i think because it was the first time playing a game from Anet made it harder because you where learning it still. GW2 you can have GvG its a lot harder to set up but you can pull it off. That and in GW2 you must kill each person 2 times and if you die as a player you may “save” ppl on the other team. Also every person in GW2 can self heal some better then others but they still can. In effect every hero in GW2 is a full pt from GW1. Its the different between being just another grunt who can do one job vs a full team in one person who has high tech equipment that helps them do more.

Oh there’s a ghostly hero somewhere? And a flag stand? And good team combat? And… Oh that’s right, there’s no GvG.

Listing a bunch of game mechanics and saying they are better doesn’t mean they are.

Craywulf.5793:

clay.7849:

Craywulf.5793:

Clay, lets get one thing straight…no MMO is finished. It’s a constant process of putting more features and keeping the game fresh. I don’t believe they stated they would have housing when the game was released. They mentioned that it’s something wanted to do in future.

The things that made GW2 incomplete, where “guesting” feature which was clearly indicated as to be part of the release but didn’t happen for technical reasons. The other feature not in at the release and still has yet to be added that was said to be included was “observer” mode for PvP matches. We are still waiting on that.

So if you want make complaints about GW2 being incomplete, please mention the right features. But take note that any and all MMOs are ongoing process of adding features as well as new lore-centric content.

I agree. How many of those MMOs are considered a success?

Maybe it’s time to change the formula?

I’m not sure you understand what I’m saying. To give you an example…World of Warcraft, is constantly adding, so is Rift, Eve, and every other MMO you can think of. You can go as far as calling those MMOs paid betas.

Just because GW2 didn’t have “guesting” upon release doesn’t make it any more of “paid beta” game than rest of the MMOs. It’s a trivial argument to label an MMO incomplete because the way MMOs are constantly adding features and content. It’s a never ending saga.

If you don’t like it, then no MMO is ever going be right for you. An MMO that doesn’t come with updates is a dead on arrival.

I agree 100%.

And I still don’t think we are getting player housing any time soon.

All I was saying until I got called out. In fact, I bet we never see it. Mounts too.

Jski.6180:

clay.7849:

Craywulf.5793:

Clay, lets get one thing straight…no MMO is finished. It’s a constant process of putting more features and keeping the game fresh. I don’t believe they stated they would have housing when the game was released. They mentioned that it’s something wanted to do in future.

The things that made GW2 incomplete, where “guesting” feature which was clearly indicated as to be part of the release but didn’t happen for technical reasons. The other feature not in at the release and still has yet to be added that was said to be included was “observer” mode for PvP matches. We are still waiting on that.

So if you want make complaints about GW2 being incomplete, please mention the right features. But take note that any and all MMOs are ongoing process of adding features as well as new lore-centric content.

I agree. How many of those MMOs are considered a success?

Maybe it’s time to change the formula?

I think most of them have been a success to some point only say star wars online was the only failure but even that is still going. There are a few that did fail and have comply shut down. Even games like GW1 compared to the other games out at that time namely WoW was a failure by that stander but GW1 fell into a niche game that covered an ok size pop. Mind you GW1 was not a true mmorpg so its not comply fair to compare it to WoW.

Have you looked at the numbers? Lmfao. None of the recent MMOs have done anywhere near what they were supposed to do.

Do you know where GW1 ranks as a franchise compared to the rest?

Jski.6180:

clay.7849:

Jski.6180:

clay.7849:

Jski.6180:

clay.7849:

Nah, is rather come here and voice my problems with the game. Besides I paid $60 to do so.

Really I don’t hate the game, I’m just disappointed. And everytime someone tells me it’s my problem or that I haven’t played it enough, I’m just gonna go into hate mode because there is no point in having a conversation with fanboys who freak out every time someone has something negative to say.

And it’s my right to express my disappointment on the forums and to keep annoying you with my opinions as long as I don’t get banned.

Personally, if I were you, I would stop replying to my posts. You guys would probably be a lot happier and threads wouldn’t end up getting derailed.

Just let me have my opinion in peace without tying to tell me I’m wrong.

Like you say – easy peasy.

But your coming from a point of view that has no base to it. I looked i cant find you any where on the leader boards but with what your saying you should be there at least in spvp but your not so… PIC OR IT DID NOT HAPPEN.

What are you 12? My point of view had plenty of base to it, just noting you agree with or want to hear. Get over yourself man. This game just isn’t that good unless you’re a carebear or like to grind your face off for digital loot. Certainly there is very little intrinsic reward to this game as it relates to anything challenging.

If you find it so easy then you should show up that all unless your making your view on an incomplete pic flawed data that you “feel” is not. Yes your point of view is that of some one who saying “every thing some one else has done is easy because i did it too.”

Yes that is what I’m saying. I don’t find this game nearly as challenging and intrinsically rewarding as it’s predecessor. I’m sorry you don’t like that I feel that way and want to take it out on me. Perhaps you just don’t like that I think this game could be more challenging because you wouldn’t be able to play it then.

I truly think you have not done every thing is what i am getting at your point of view to call the game not challenging at any point if flawed.
Was GW1 hard when you could do any event with npc? Was it hard to work out near exploitation of combos until they nerfed it? I think your living in the past and nothing will be in your view as challenging as something you played in what i presume youth because you where YOUNGER then you are now so you where LEARNING a new way to play but now that you have some idea what is going on things SHOULD be easier.

I played HA and GvG. I imagine you didn’t. That is our difference. PvE content was much more challenging though as well.

UndeadRufus.6832:

clay.7849:

I do doubt it will happen. The devs like to over promise and under deliver.

Doubting is your prerogative.

ArenaNet has done some dumb things, but they haven’t “under-delivered” on anything content-wise, especially relative to other games in this genre.

What is wrong with me doubting it will happen?

Apart from being just a smidgen unreasonable and dismissive of previous examples of this sort of thing (i.e. player housing in other games), I suppose nothing.

Your quote proves that it will?

Of course not. However, I do think, based on that quote and other examples we can point to, that the features in question will most likely appear eventually.

And we are allowed to have different opinions. It’s amazing this thing called freedom that you want to take away from me because my opinion is different and you don’t like it.

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

So you’re saying everything ANet says has or will come true? Be careful how you answer this one.

I’m saying that they’ve kept FAR more promises than they’ve broken by percentage. Care to contest that?

So you admit that some promises have been broken or that perhaps some promises should be left broken in the future? So, there is a chance we will never see player housing?

Jski.6180:

clay.7849:

Jski.6180:

clay.7849:

Nah, is rather come here and voice my problems with the game. Besides I paid $60 to do so.

Really I don’t hate the game, I’m just disappointed. And everytime someone tells me it’s my problem or that I haven’t played it enough, I’m just gonna go into hate mode because there is no point in having a conversation with fanboys who freak out every time someone has something negative to say.

And it’s my right to express my disappointment on the forums and to keep annoying you with my opinions as long as I don’t get banned.

Personally, if I were you, I would stop replying to my posts. You guys would probably be a lot happier and threads wouldn’t end up getting derailed.

Just let me have my opinion in peace without tying to tell me I’m wrong.

Like you say – easy peasy.

But your coming from a point of view that has no base to it. I looked i cant find you any where on the leader boards but with what your saying you should be there at least in spvp but your not so… PIC OR IT DID NOT HAPPEN.

What are you 12? My point of view had plenty of base to it, just noting you agree with or want to hear. Get over yourself man. This game just isn’t that good unless you’re a carebear or like to grind your face off for digital loot. Certainly there is very little intrinsic reward to this game as it relates to anything challenging.

If you find it so easy then you should show up that all unless your making your view on an incomplete pic flawed data that you “feel” is not. Yes your point of view is that of some one who saying “every thing some one else has done is easy because i did it too.”

Yes that is what I’m saying. I don’t find this game nearly as challenging and intrinsically rewarding as it’s predecessor. I’m sorry you don’t like that I feel that way and want to take it out on me. Perhaps you just don’t like that I think this game could be more challenging because you wouldn’t be able to play it then.

Jski.6180:

clay.7849:

So you’re saying everything ANet says has or will come true? Be careful how you answer this one.

As much as you say is true at least.

So we can look forward to more leveling and gear grind in the future too? They said they expect to add that too. I’m sure lots of people will be thrilled to hear that.

But that’s the easy stuff. I can dig up more failed promises.

Jski.6180:

clay.7849:

Nah, is rather come here and voice my problems with the game. Besides I paid $60 to do so.

Really I don’t hate the game, I’m just disappointed. And everytime someone tells me it’s my problem or that I haven’t played it enough, I’m just gonna go into hate mode because there is no point in having a conversation with fanboys who freak out every time someone has something negative to say.

And it’s my right to express my disappointment on the forums and to keep annoying you with my opinions as long as I don’t get banned.

Personally, if I were you, I would stop replying to my posts. You guys would probably be a lot happier and threads wouldn’t end up getting derailed.

Just let me have my opinion in peace without tying to tell me I’m wrong.

Like you say – easy peasy.

But your coming from a point of view that has no base to it. I looked i cant find you any where on the leader boards but with what your saying you should be there at least in spvp but your not so… PIC OR IT DID NOT HAPPEN.

What are you 12? My point of view had plenty of base to it, just noting you agree with or want to hear. Get over yourself man. This game just isn’t that good unless you’re a carebear or like to grind your face off for digital loot. Certainly there is very little intrinsic reward to this game as it relates to anything challenging.

Wrong thread Vayne. You are woefully off topic here.

So you’re saying everything ANet says has or will come true? Be careful how you answer this one.

Nah, is rather come here and voice my problems with the game. Besides I paid $60 to do so.

Really I don’t hate the game, I’m just disappointed. And everytime someone tells me it’s my problem or that I haven’t played it enough, I’m just gonna go into hate mode because there is no point in having a conversation with fanboys who freak out every time someone has something negative to say.

And it’s my right to express my disappointment on the forums and to keep annoying you with my opinions as long as I don’t get banned.

Personally, if I were you, I would stop replying to my posts. You guys would probably be a lot happier and threads wouldn’t end up getting derailed.

Just let me have my opinion in peace without tying to tell me I’m wrong.

Like you say – easy peasy.

UndeadRufus.6832:

clay.7849:

I’m not. If you go back to the beginning I was attacked by Vayne as usual for saying that I doubt Player housing will happen any time soon because they haven’t even added guild halls yet.

Actually, what you said was: “I doubt it will happen.”

When provided with a dev quote re: that very issue, you commenced a shotgun approach with every game-related ill you could conceive.

You were not “attacked” by Vayne.

I was happy to leave it at that.

Evidently not.

Then the fanboys started their belligerent protests that was should all be patient because the game that took 6 years to develop isn’t ready yet.

No one said that, and I haven’t seen anyone being belligerent toward you. If you disagree, then I suppose you can report the offending post(s).

This has ceased to be productive, if it ever was at all.

I do doubt it will happen. The devs like to over promise and under deliver.

What is wrong with me doubting it will happen? Your quote proves that it will?

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

GW2 isn’t nearly as ambitious as GW1 was. That game actually tried to break the mold, and did quite successfully.

This game is just another MMO. For all it’s ambition, it’s really falling into the same path that every MMO is falling in to. And you use that to justify patience.

Let me just ask you – how many of those MMOs lived up to expectations and how many of them are considered failures today?

Actually, Guild Wars 2 did break a lot of MMO ground. The skills linked to weapons, whether you like it or not, is ground-breaking for an MMO. The cooperative style of PvE play including everyone being able to rez is pretty unique too. Downed state appears in no other MMO and cross profession combos I’ve not seen in an MMO either. Not to mention everyone having their own nodes and even the overflow servers.

Guild Wars 2 did well enough in doing something new that a lot of the new games coming out are copying them, and even some of the old games are copying Guild Wars 2.

Just because you don’t like what they’ve done doesn’t mean it’s not a quantum step forward in the MMO space.

Boring mechanics for carebears isn’t groundbreaking. It’s insulting.

And you didn’t answer my question at all.