Guild Wars 2

Draygo.9473:

clay.7849:

Jski.6180:

Guns and Giblets.9308:

CakeGuy.4735:

one should consider if the game is truly balanced or not.

People keep talking about balance, but that is not what this thread was about. It was about customization—the amount of skill options a player has, build diversity.

I don’t think anyone here is arguing that GW1 had fantastic balance. The issue is not how the system was implemented, but what the system consisted of. It had a great deal of variety. Even if some are going to argue that this variety was largely (or completely?) an illusion and/or poorly implemented, people like the idea of having a lot of options and a lot of choices and some (many?) players enjoyed working through the variety to grow and build their character.

At the end of the day, balance is irrelevant to the discussion because all that’s being said is that some players desire more customization. That GW1 produced customization at the expense of balance doesn’t mean we should be satisfied with GW2, which has produced balance at the expense of customization.

Well the lack of balance may of what kept GW1 from an E-sport level game like they are trying to do with GW2. Yes GW1 had torments but they where healed by Anet not by the E-sport community. You will find that most games that are ran for e-sports are some what simplistic when they first get in but they become more complex as time goes on. This is to make sure that you do not have one class wining all the time or one build to make sure there is an ok level of balance to keep the game competitive.

I love that you think you know even the first thing about PvP in GW1. Did you ever even go into Heroe’s Ascent let alone hold halls?

Did your guild ever beat a top 100 guild in GvG?

Did you ever even go into GvG and win a match against anyone?

1) Yes
2) Yes
3) Yes

And what he says is true.

You do realize that the prophecies meta had very few builds that were actually utilized right?
Monks picked between about 9-10 skills and ran a Mesmer or Necro elite.

Sure there were a few gimmicks like FC air spike. The dominate build was a rainbowspike consisting of 2 warriors 2 mesmers 2 elementalists (one ran flags) and 2 monks with teams running nearly identical setups.
Sure there were other builds in the meta – not nearly as many as the op seemed to think were viable.

There are more viable builds in GW2 than there were in GW1 prophecies. (I’m not including factions onward because I want to keep the comparison apples to apples.)

Balance is completely relevant to the discussion of having more skills because that’s the trade off, more skills inherently means that the game gets harder to balance. When you keep things down to small subset of skills that can be brought its much easier to balance them.

For example, look at an e-sport game like League of Legends, each champion has FOUR skills and no flexibility.

GW1 had far less build diversity than you seem to be giving it.

Well, using monks, specifically boon/prot as the only example is a bit disingenuous, don’t you think?

In fact, I am pretty sure that the GWWC championship game was played by one team that utilized three monks. And the team that won was based around a splitting.

I mean, there was a spike element developed into a lot of builds, but that doesn’t make all builds like that a rainbow spike.

But, I think you glaze over a lot when you say “sure there were other builds in the meta.” I mean, that is what we are saying isn’t it?

And, yes, I agree 1000% that adding more skills makes balance harder. Although, I think it was the addition of classes that specifically screwed up balance more and more in GW1 – not necessarily the addition of new skills. To support this – look at how many OP builds (genuinely OP builds) were based around new classes.

I really disagree that there are more viable builds in GW2 PvP than there were in GW1 PvP.

SoulSaga.2390:

I disagree. There wont be any expansions as far as we can see. I dont even think they have one planned as part of the core design document of the game, and they admitted not even working on either. The most development we have seen since launch has come in the form of temporary events, often tied some how to the gem store. I am not sure they are doing as well as they let on, nor do I think any of their original ambitions will see the light of day. Dont forget they wanted GW2 to be seen as having a professional gaming element to it in spvp, but that wont happen.

There is no strong objective indication that the game is going to get better and they seem desperate for time sinks in the form of laurels and fractals.

Very well said. This is my opinion as well.

Poplolita.2638:

clay.7849:

Jski.6180:

clay.7849:

Jski.6180:

clay.7849:

Jski.6180:

clay.7849:

Neverine.4398:

clay.7849:

Neverine.4398:

clay.7849:

Sorry, but the company, IMO, has let down their GW1 fanbase. As such, I can’t support a development team that turned their backs on the fanbase that made them successful.

guess you missed the idea of the post, if your gonna troll do it elsewhere,

for things you appreciate about this game only

Sorry, I was replying to your giant thread title that yelled at me “HELP SUPPORT THIS GAME!!”.

I was just giving my reason for not supporting. Sorry it offended you so much.

if you dont support it why play it if its so bad?

Why do you care?

And you? Why would you care that some one likes the game? You seem to go to great ends to put down any type of positivity here.

I didn’t quote or reply to one person about them being wrong for liking the game. I never have. Ever.

I added my own little post about my opinion. If everyone wants to get all upset about that then let them. I’m gonna voice my opinion.

Just because you do not quote something dose not make it any less that your commenting on the main post. The idea of threads is that you have a title and the first post this set the reason for having it. Then ppl commented on the ideas presented in that post. No need to quote that first post.

So you can’t say something different than what the OP states? So, if I make a thread that says I think the combat system sucks, are you and everyone that disagrees going to stay out of it? I thought not….

Seems like we’ve gone way off track in this thread for one measly little post I made about my opinion… What a shame you guys can’t get over people with different opinions.

No you can but your going to get call out on your views too. If this is about how we can support the game saying that you hate something in the game or hate a view that some one holds for liking the game dose not fit the thread at all. Its simply getting off subject like this line of questioning.

You think I would post in a forum if I cared about getting called out?

I feel like you two are talking past each other.

Probably. Jski doesn’t like my opinions about the game and feels the need to remind me constantly, instead of just letting my posts go and forgetting about them – which would cause must less derailment of threads and flaming.

darkace.8925:

clay.7849:

Sorry, but the company, IMO, has let down their GW1 fanbase. As such, I can’t support a development team that turned their backs on the fanbase that made them successful.

I’m a GW1 vet, and I don’t feel they’ve turned their backs on the fanbase that made them successful. I’m sorry that you do, but I’m also glad you don’t speak for everyone.

I’m happy for you. It’s funny how no one ever speaks for everyone, but generally, no one speaks for just themselves either.

I know for a fact there are plenty of people that like both games. I also know there are people that like GW1 and don’t like GW2. People that like GW2 that don’t like GW1. And people that dislike both games.

Did I cover it all for you?

Jski.6180:

clay.7849:

Jski.6180:

clay.7849:

Jski.6180:

clay.7849:

Neverine.4398:

clay.7849:

Neverine.4398:

clay.7849:

Sorry, but the company, IMO, has let down their GW1 fanbase. As such, I can’t support a development team that turned their backs on the fanbase that made them successful.

guess you missed the idea of the post, if your gonna troll do it elsewhere,

for things you appreciate about this game only

Sorry, I was replying to your giant thread title that yelled at me “HELP SUPPORT THIS GAME!!”.

I was just giving my reason for not supporting. Sorry it offended you so much.

if you dont support it why play it if its so bad?

Why do you care?

And you? Why would you care that some one likes the game? You seem to go to great ends to put down any type of positivity here.

I didn’t quote or reply to one person about them being wrong for liking the game. I never have. Ever.

I added my own little post about my opinion. If everyone wants to get all upset about that then let them. I’m gonna voice my opinion.

Just because you do not quote something dose not make it any less that your commenting on the main post. The idea of threads is that you have a title and the first post this set the reason for having it. Then ppl commented on the ideas presented in that post. No need to quote that first post.

So you can’t say something different than what the OP states? So, if I make a thread that says I think the combat system sucks, are you and everyone that disagrees going to stay out of it? I thought not….

Seems like we’ve gone way off track in this thread for one measly little post I made about my opinion… What a shame you guys can’t get over people with different opinions.

No you can but your going to get call out on your views too. If this is about how we can support the game saying that you hate something in the game or hate a view that some one holds for liking the game dose not fit the thread at all. Its simply getting off subject like this line of questioning.

You think I would post in a forum if I cared about getting called out?

Jski.6180:

clay.7849:

Jski.6180:

clay.7849:

Neverine.4398:

clay.7849:

Neverine.4398:

clay.7849:

Sorry, but the company, IMO, has let down their GW1 fanbase. As such, I can’t support a development team that turned their backs on the fanbase that made them successful.

guess you missed the idea of the post, if your gonna troll do it elsewhere,

for things you appreciate about this game only

Sorry, I was replying to your giant thread title that yelled at me “HELP SUPPORT THIS GAME!!”.

I was just giving my reason for not supporting. Sorry it offended you so much.

if you dont support it why play it if its so bad?

Why do you care?

And you? Why would you care that some one likes the game? You seem to go to great ends to put down any type of positivity here.

I didn’t quote or reply to one person about them being wrong for liking the game. I never have. Ever.

I added my own little post about my opinion. If everyone wants to get all upset about that then let them. I’m gonna voice my opinion.

Just because you do not quote something dose not make it any less that your commenting on the main post. The idea of threads is that you have a title and the first post this set the reason for having it. Then ppl commented on the ideas presented in that post. No need to quote that first post.

So you can’t say something different than what the OP states? So, if I make a thread that says I think the combat system sucks, are you and everyone that disagrees going to stay out of it? I thought not….

Seems like we’ve gone way off track in this thread for one measly little post I made about my opinion… What a shame you guys can’t get over people with different opinions.

lordkrall.7241:

clay.7849:

No, they are right, I’m just not gonna do hours worth of work for someone like you. Why would I?

Because posting stuff and claiming they are fact but refuse to actually provide any proof is stupid and just makes you look silly.

Awww shucks. Guess I’m stupid and look silly now.

athuria.2751:

And it’s of disingenuous, then, to compare GW1’s skill-diversity after years of expanded material and GW2 before its first expansion has even happened. Of course it has less customization than GW1—it hasn’t had the time to build up as many weapon sets, utilities, elites, etc.

This is not true because prophecies was the first campaign, and had WAY more build diversity then GW2 does now. So… what now?

lordkrall.7241:

clay.7849:

Oh yea, that 90% thing? I don’t care to take the time to do hours worth of work just to prove my point. Sorry. I don’t really care if you believe me or not. If you played PvP from Prophecies through Nightfall you would just know the amount of builds and creativity that went into the game and the various metas.

Sorry?

So your posts are simply bullkitten that you don’t even want to try to prove correct?

No, they are right, I’m just not gonna do hours worth of work for someone like you. Why would I?

Jski.6180:

clay.7849:

Neverine.4398:

clay.7849:

Neverine.4398:

clay.7849:

Sorry, but the company, IMO, has let down their GW1 fanbase. As such, I can’t support a development team that turned their backs on the fanbase that made them successful.

guess you missed the idea of the post, if your gonna troll do it elsewhere,

for things you appreciate about this game only

Sorry, I was replying to your giant thread title that yelled at me “HELP SUPPORT THIS GAME!!”.

I was just giving my reason for not supporting. Sorry it offended you so much.

if you dont support it why play it if its so bad?

Why do you care?

And you? Why would you care that some one likes the game? You seem to go to great ends to put down any type of positivity here.

I didn’t quote or reply to one person about them being wrong for liking the game. I never have. Ever.

I added my own little post about my opinion. If everyone wants to get all upset about that then let them. I’m gonna voice my opinion.

lordkrall.7241:

clay.7849:

I love that you think you know even the first thing about PvP in GW1. Did you ever even go into Heroe’s Ascent let alone hold halls?

Did your guild ever beat a top 100 guild in GvG?

Did you ever even go into GvG and win a match against anyone?

I love the fact that you constantly posts stuff on these forums, but whenever someone asks for an actual source you simply ignore it.

Oh yea, that 90% thing? I don’t care to take the time to do hours worth of work just to prove my point. Sorry. I don’t really care if you believe me or not. If you played PvP from Prophecies through Nightfall you would just know the amount of builds and creativity that went into the game and the various metas.

Sorry?

Mirta.5029:

clay.7849:

No, I do get a right to review everything and tell people my opinion. In fact, that very idea has changed the way companies are doing business in the last 5-10 years.

Maybe it’s just time for you to get hip to the times?

I can say whatever I kitten well please. I live in a country that allows me to do that. And, unless the moderators think I am being obnoxious, I get to do it here too. You don’t get to tell me what to do. Sorry you’re so upset.

1. You get a right to express an opinion, it doesn’t mean that just because you own their product they’re entitled to follow your opinion and please you and you alone. It’s their lore, their world and their story. They have every right to tell it how they want. The only way you can force them to follow your opinion is to buy the major part of the company shares. That’s all.
2. I’m not upset at all, but I do think that you think too highly of yourself and that you should feel the earth beneath your feet.

I never said they had to do what I want. I merely make suggestions about what I like and what I don’t like and what I would like to see done better.

I know they don’t have to do that.

I won’t apologize for my confident tone and general lack of caring what other people think.

PearlGore.7419:

It would be nice if we did not have liars in here, would help the discussion on gear.

It would also be nice if people who don’t know what they were talking about didn’t come in here and claim things like good luck in FoTM and Arah with zerker gear.

Jski.6180:

Guns and Giblets.9308:

CakeGuy.4735:

one should consider if the game is truly balanced or not.

People keep talking about balance, but that is not what this thread was about. It was about customization—the amount of skill options a player has, build diversity.

I don’t think anyone here is arguing that GW1 had fantastic balance. The issue is not how the system was implemented, but what the system consisted of. It had a great deal of variety. Even if some are going to argue that this variety was largely (or completely?) an illusion and/or poorly implemented, people like the idea of having a lot of options and a lot of choices and some (many?) players enjoyed working through the variety to grow and build their character.

At the end of the day, balance is irrelevant to the discussion because all that’s being said is that some players desire more customization. That GW1 produced customization at the expense of balance doesn’t mean we should be satisfied with GW2, which has produced balance at the expense of customization.

Well the lack of balance may of what kept GW1 from an E-sport level game like they are trying to do with GW2. Yes GW1 had torments but they where healed by Anet not by the E-sport community. You will find that most games that are ran for e-sports are some what simplistic when they first get in but they become more complex as time goes on. This is to make sure that you do not have one class wining all the time or one build to make sure there is an ok level of balance to keep the game competitive.

I love that you think you know even the first thing about PvP in GW1. Did you ever even go into Heroe’s Ascent let alone hold halls?

Did your guild ever beat a top 100 guild in GvG?

Did you ever even go into GvG and win a match against anyone?

Xia.3485:

clay.7849:

Dang Xia, where you been? Agreed 100%.

Bioshock infinite, and soon borderlands 2.. on the steam page right now looking for the best deal

Still getting my dailys done, but GW2 is on the back burner for a little while. (Or at least until the April patch).

Ya, I have been playing Skyrim again lately. Good to see you back in the forums though.

PearlGore.7419:

clay.7849:

PearlGore.7419:

clay.7849:

PearlGore.7419:

Levitas.1953:

PearlGore.7419:

And GL with high lvl Fractals or Arah EXP in beserker Gear lol.

if you say so.

I do, have fun in your downed state.

You just need more practice.

I do just fine with 3 Valk pieces at 38, but okay I’ll practice more.

And I do just fine with my zerker gear. I was just saying practice more because you clearly can’t do the same things others can in zerker gear, or you wouldn’t have said have fun in your downed state.

Practice more Because I prefer different stats? It’s clear you Don’t run these dungeons. You would be kicked.

No, because you think that zerker gear = not being able to complete dungeons. If you can’t complete dungeons in zerker gear you need to practice more, that’s all.

My god, I thought we were talking about zerkger gear, not what you wear.

PearlGore.7419:

clay.7849:

PearlGore.7419:

Levitas.1953:

PearlGore.7419:

And GL with high lvl Fractals or Arah EXP in beserker Gear lol.

if you say so.

I do, have fun in your downed state.

You just need more practice.

I do just fine with 3 Valk pieces at 38, but okay I’ll practice more.

And I do just fine with my zerker gear. I was just saying practice more because you clearly can’t do the same things others can in zerker gear, or you wouldn’t have said have fun in your downed state.

Neverine.4398:

clay.7849:

Neverine.4398:

clay.7849:

Sorry, but the company, IMO, has let down their GW1 fanbase. As such, I can’t support a development team that turned their backs on the fanbase that made them successful.

guess you missed the idea of the post, if your gonna troll do it elsewhere,

for things you appreciate about this game only

Sorry, I was replying to your giant thread title that yelled at me “HELP SUPPORT THIS GAME!!”.

I was just giving my reason for not supporting. Sorry it offended you so much.

if you dont support it why play it if its so bad?

Why do you care?

Mirta.5029:

clay.7849:

Eladriel.7295:

Don’t let the door hit you where the good Lord split you.. Who are you to tell Anet what their priorities are? I am really tired of reading lame post such as these stating that you all know best concerning GW2.. Honestly.. they don’t need to listen and change the game on every tom, kitten and harry’s whim.. The game would be so messed up it wouldn’t even be fit to play anymore because of the lame crap you people ask for. Keep in mind they don’t make these games to evolve around you and you alone. This post is no different than the other thousands of post of this nature that populate this forum.. pfft

My $60 spent gives me the priority to tell them anything I kitten well please. And, yes, developers make games to make people happy. The only way to let them know if we are happy or not is to tell them.

Sorry you don’t like it that someone doesn’t like the game as much as you do. Pity.

there has been some wise words that I’ve heard:
give masses what you want to show and not what masses want, because if you give what masses want, masses will continue to ask for exactly the same things because they won’t know any better.
We all payed money for a product. We got that product. We don’t get to order the developers of the product. It would be the same as buying shoes and thinking that you made an impact great enough to be able to instruct shoe makers on how soles should be made, because YOU want them that way.

No, I do get a right to review everything and tell people my opinion. In fact, that very idea has changed the way companies are doing business in the last 5-10 years.

Maybe it’s just time for you to get hip to the times?

I can say whatever I kitten well please. I live in a country that allows me to do that. And, unless the moderators think I am being obnoxious, I get to do it here too. You don’t get to tell me what to do. Sorry you’re so upset.

Xia.3485:

PearlGore.7419:

And GL with high lvl Fractals or Arah EXP in beserker Gear lol.

When everything one shots you you’re best defense is playing smart, not toughness and vitality stats.

Dang Xia, where you been? Agreed 100%.

PearlGore.7419:

Levitas.1953:

PearlGore.7419:

And GL with high lvl Fractals or Arah EXP in beserker Gear lol.

if you say so.

I do, have fun in your downed state.

You just need more practice.

Neverine.4398:

clay.7849:

Sorry, but the company, IMO, has let down their GW1 fanbase. As such, I can’t support a development team that turned their backs on the fanbase that made them successful.

guess you missed the idea of the post, if your gonna troll do it elsewhere,

for things you appreciate about this game only

Sorry, I was replying to your giant thread title that yelled at me “HELP SUPPORT THIS GAME!!”.

I was just giving my reason for not supporting. Sorry it offended you so much.

Eladriel.7295:

Don’t let the door hit you where the good Lord split you.. Who are you to tell Anet what their priorities are? I am really tired of reading lame post such as these stating that you all know best concerning GW2.. Honestly.. they don’t need to listen and change the game on every tom, kitten and harry’s whim.. The game would be so messed up it wouldn’t even be fit to play anymore because of the lame crap you people ask for. Keep in mind they don’t make these games to evolve around you and you alone. This post is no different than the other thousands of post of this nature that populate this forum.. pfft

My $60 spent gives me the priority to tell them anything I kitten well please. And, yes, developers make games to make people happy. The only way to let them know if we are happy or not is to tell them.

Sorry you don’t like it that someone doesn’t like the game as much as you do. Pity.

Sorry, but the company, IMO, has let down their GW1 fanbase. As such, I can’t support a development team that turned their backs on the fanbase that made them successful.

Jski.6180:

clay.7849:

lordkrall.7241:

clay.7849:

Actually, in PvP, at one time or another, over 75% of the skills were used from each class. The elementalist alone had 90% of their skills used at one time or another.

82% of all statistics are made up.

I could go through and do the math on this one though.

In fact, the elementalist one has been done.

So wait was every pvp game in GW1 tracked? Because your working with an game overall or was this counting pve well the very small pve that GW1 had. 90% is a very hard number to claim or was it on the lines one person running different skills for purely running different skills and yet your still counting that.

No, at some point, 90% of elementalist skills were run at one time or another, in PvP.

See, what you don’t know about PvP in GW1 is that the elementalist was never a real damage dealer. It was much more a utility role. And, as such, there was never an optimal build. The elementalist rolled with so many different skills to account for many different things, especially in relation to the changing meta.

So, it is not even crazy to think that the elemenatlist used 90% of it’s skills at one time or another in PvP.

My guess is most people can’t comprehend the elementalist as anything more than a “nuker”.

Vayne.8563:

Go to the Guild Wars 1 wiki and look up the guide to playing a ranger. This is a line from it, with regards to PvP.

Despite the flexibility available, bow-based Rangers have a very rigid optimal build:

The 8 skills are listed beneath.

Yes, there’s a lot of versatility, but there’s also a single optimal build. And why wouldn’t you want to use the optimal build in PvP?

Except, if you actually played PvP you would know that there was never one optimal build for any class in PvP.

There was a hell of a difference between a crip shot flag runner/splitter and a ranger spike.

FirstBlood.7359:

The nickname of GW1 among PvP’ers was “build wars”. Not the playerskill, but the team composition was the deciding variable in top matches. There had been only few viable builds for every class and a small number of team setups had been dominating all others.

This was never the case until, possibly, after Nightfall.

lordkrall.7241:

clay.7849:

Actually, in PvP, at one time or another, over 75% of the skills were used from each class. The elementalist alone had 90% of their skills used at one time or another.

82% of all statistics are made up.

I could go through and do the math on this one though.

In fact, the elementalist one has been done.

lordkrall.7241:

How many of those “awesome skills in the GW1 system” were actually used though?
A rather high amount of skills were never really used, AT ALL. And quite a few of them were duplicates from different campaigns.

Actually, in PvP, at one time or another, over 75% of the skills were used from each class. The elementalist alone had 90% of their skills used at one time or another.

CakeGuy.4735:

Why does the word “reward” have to be synonymous with the word “loot”?

“Loot” is an extrinsic “reward”. I really hope you haven’t made it out of grade school yet.

To the OP, the problem is this game is designed for casuals and carebears. That being said, most of them don’t have the will or the patience to do dungeons, but still want to get the same rewards. So, instead of taking a firm stance on allowing good players to get the best loot, ANet decided that skill shouldn’t be a part of your ability to get good loot.

In fact, they made it so the some of the best chests in the game drop from world bosses which are total zerg fests and take no skill at all.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

www.gw2lfg.com

never had to wait more then 30 seconds to get a group.

Never?! 30 seconds?! Impressive.

Jski.6180:

GW1 was micro-transaction business model too so i call BS on your post.

When did that start?

maddoctor.2738:

The thing is, GW1 skill system was way more restrictive than GW2 system. Ever did DoA on Hard Mode? Ever did ANY speedruns in GW1? Much like the 4zerker wars + 1 Mes we get for CoF p1 speedfarming, GW1 speedruns and HM elite area runs were way similar, if not completely the same.

Also, the vast majority of skill combinations, or even profession combinations, were unplayable. Only very few builds were actually good and viable for the hardest content.

Having more skills to choose from doesn’t make more choices available.

When you decide that you need to exploit the enemy AI in a game for speed runs, you are going to get the same restrictive results no matter what game it is.

maddoctor.2738:

Drew.1865:

Mirta.5029:

something I can comment about
1. I do think that you should be able to win skins for pve. If you buy a pve skin it asks whether you want to use it in Spvp or pve. I don’t know why Spvp skins are different. After all in WvW you can buy distinct armor, why couldn’t you win skins in spvp?
2. I personally like the goofiness. Aiming for a legendary bow that shoots unicorns ^^
3. You might want to try a different server for WvW. Underworld in eternal battlegrounds seems to take it very seriously sometimes. There’s always some sort of conversations going on.
4. I like that there’s no trinity. Though you can still tank if you have a character that heals passively and has a lot of toughness. Because that’s how aggro is chosen in this game. A mob will attack someone that is either getting downed people up (healing), getting up, healing themselves, or has a lot of toughness. So if you go warrior with high toughness it will be very hard to get rid of the enemy. Also if you build a necro in a well build you could be an excellent healer (the same goes for a shout warrior, some ele and guardian builds)
5. Condition cap is being worked on. They’re doing something with conditions, so it will probably be changed.
6. This MMO is not about grinding. Don’t grind. That’s what DR is there for.

Lol this is the grindiest mmo I have ever played. DR is there to increase gem sales and extend the playtime of this extremely shallow game.

You haven’t played ANY other mmorpg in your life right? Otherwise you wouldn’t say that gw2 is grindy… it’s not grindy at all

You’re right, the grind in GW2 is largely option if you don’t want best in slot gear.

On the other hand, there is a ton of very large time sinks in the game that are based on nothing more than repeating content X amount of times to get Y.

So, technically, you can skip the grind. But, a lot of people want that stuff and do, indeed, have to grind to get them.

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

Invizible.2960:

clay.7849:

Drew.1865:

I would say it is the most beautiful looking mmo but like many beautiful things it’s shallow.

Also this game is really a virtual gambling operation disguised as a game. Hopefully in the future governments will regulate the gaming industry and keep kids from playing games with a cash shop that uses RNG.

I agree. It is like the “Avatar” of MMO’s.

And, yes, I think something should be done about the cash shop thing. I’m not big into government oversight, but maybe a warning label for parents or something.

It really is a shame how much of this game seems more like a casino so NCSoft can grow rich and fat than a fantasy adventure game.

you can get everything with gold though..

That doesn’t make it any better. In fact, the fact that they added DR to the game means that there are specific mechanics in the game designed to keep players from making gold which means they are better off pulling out their credit card for gems. Not spending hours farming.

Or there are specific mechanics making it harder to bot, something most games have. Honestly, you continue to say things as if they’re facts, when you have no evidence of it.

Did you never hear of DR in Guild Wars 1?

So, I am wrong to say that DR exists and that it exists as a way to make it harder to farm for gold?

Hold on, yup… I’m pretty sure that is all factual and has evidence to support it.

What part was I wrong about?

Invizible.2960:

clay.7849:

Drew.1865:

I would say it is the most beautiful looking mmo but like many beautiful things it’s shallow.

Also this game is really a virtual gambling operation disguised as a game. Hopefully in the future governments will regulate the gaming industry and keep kids from playing games with a cash shop that uses RNG.

I agree. It is like the “Avatar” of MMO’s.

And, yes, I think something should be done about the cash shop thing. I’m not big into government oversight, but maybe a warning label for parents or something.

It really is a shame how much of this game seems more like a casino so NCSoft can grow rich and fat than a fantasy adventure game.

you can get everything with gold though..

That doesn’t make it any better. In fact, the fact that they added DR to the game means that there are specific mechanics in the game designed to keep players from making gold which means they are better off pulling out their credit card for gems. Not spending hours farming.

Serophous.9085:

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

I think the main different for me between the Guild Wars 1 and Guild Wars 2 combat system is where I’m looking. In Guild Wars 1, I was looking at my skill bar. In Guild Wars 2 I’m looking at the world.

I find that, personally, far more immersive.

Maybe you just memorized where your skills are better in GW2? I mean there is no reason to have to look at your skillbar ever in GW1 if you know what you were doing. Maybe you were just bad?

That’s right….I was just bad. That must be it.

Or I was looking at when skills could be cast again, because in PVe there wasn’t much reason to look at you screen. As I’ve said before, there wasn’t much reason to do anything because your heroes were so powerful you didn’t even have to show up.

I said the game was too easy, not to hard. You should probably pay more attention.

I forgot you didn’t play before heroes so your view of GW1 is tainted. I’m sorry you didn’t experience it in its glory days.

No reason for you to say it was a bad game because you played it at the worst point in its history.

I just….ugh…wait…what?

Did you just say gw1 wasnt that great in the beginning but became amazing towards the end? Do you not see the irony here?!

No, I said the exact opposite. Heroes were at the end of GW1, not the beginning.

What part didn’t you understand in my post?

Dedalus.3065:

clay.7849:

So like, you know how the thief has the backstab thing? More of that. Or, like if someone is blocking their front, you need to hit them from behind. That kind of positioning and movement. The actual “dance” of the fight.

It is definitely a step in a different direction, although I would hesitate to call it better or worse, just different. However, I think that it could have been done in a way that still provided more depth to combat than what we have now.

Yeah, I think it’s quite interesting how they have tab targeting yet somehow location based damage still exists. I would love it if they developed that more, and your suggestions are steps in the right direction, both in pve and pvp. But arguing about depth is rather pointless as the question reaches the point where we ask ourselves not if we can add more depth, but rather if the depth we have is enough. At that point, it becomes a personal opinion.

I think that the combat depth in pve is ridiculously low and should definitely be expanded. On the other hand in pvp, I’ve played the game for quite some time yet I still haven’t memorized all the animations for the different bursts of professions or stuns, so I dodge the wrong attack a lot of the time. I think a lot of the depth of GW2 comes from reading your enemy, and I also think that that’s one thing a lot of players ignore (mostly because it isn’t prevalent in pve). That’s also the reason why skills are bound to weapons; so we can see our enemy and know which skills he has. For example, defeating a D/D elementalist requires a lot of knowledge and observation; see when he just switched from water attunement and focus your burst then, and if you notice that he’s good, then try to make him use his cantrips (which he undoubtedly has), then attack when he’s out of water.

Anyway, a long discussion but it boils down to preference, as most things do.

Yes it does, but I think we agree on a lot of things when it looked like we probably didn’t in the beginning. That is why it is nice to have a conversation with someone of, perhaps, differing opinions, instead of just throwing insults at one another.

Anyways, I do think having other game modes in PvP would be a tremendous benefit. The one we have now doesn’t really encourage much combat as it does maximizing your ability to take, hold and defend cap points.

Nick.6972:

Vayne, You’re probably the biggest arena net /gw2 fanboi i’ve seen here, go play GW2, because it’s so great and flawless.

I would just say GW2. I don’t think he is a fan of ArenaNet, at least not the original ArenaNet. Perhaps, the ArenaNet that is now controlled by NCSoft which is squeezing the players of this game for every drop of money they have, but not the original ArenaNet that had a philosophy of making games better.

Sadly, that ArenaNet seems to have left with 2 of its original 3 founders.

Drew.1865:

I would say it is the most beautiful looking mmo but like many beautiful things it’s shallow.

Also this game is really a virtual gambling operation disguised as a game. Hopefully in the future governments will regulate the gaming industry and keep kids from playing games with a cash shop that uses RNG.

I agree. It is like the “Avatar” of MMO’s.

And, yes, I think something should be done about the cash shop thing. I’m not big into government oversight, but maybe a warning label for parents or something.

It really is a shame how much of this game seems more like a casino so NCSoft can grow rich and fat than a fantasy adventure game.

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

I think the main different for me between the Guild Wars 1 and Guild Wars 2 combat system is where I’m looking. In Guild Wars 1, I was looking at my skill bar. In Guild Wars 2 I’m looking at the world.

I find that, personally, far more immersive.

Maybe you just memorized where your skills are better in GW2? I mean there is no reason to have to look at your skillbar ever in GW1 if you know what you were doing. Maybe you were just bad?

That’s right….I was just bad. That must be it.

Or I was looking at when skills could be cast again, because in PVe there wasn’t much reason to look at you screen. As I’ve said before, there wasn’t much reason to do anything because your heroes were so powerful you didn’t even have to show up.

I said the game was too easy, not to hard. You should probably pay more attention.

I forgot you didn’t play before heroes so your view of GW1 is tainted. I’m sorry you didn’t experience it in its glory days.

No reason for you to say it was a bad game because you played it at the worst point in its history.

Vayne.8563:

I think the main different for me between the Guild Wars 1 and Guild Wars 2 combat system is where I’m looking. In Guild Wars 1, I was looking at my skill bar. In Guild Wars 2 I’m looking at the world.

I find that, personally, far more immersive.

Maybe you just memorized where your skills are better in GW2? I mean there is no reason to have to look at your skillbar ever in GW1 if you know what you were doing. Maybe you were just bad?

Dedalus.3065:

I agree that they could’ve done a better job at the combat system with things like tab targeting and whatnot, but I think part of the reason was because they didn’t want to alienate GW1 players too much.

Anyway, I still think positioning and movement matter a lot. Hard to demonstrate with words, but here are two videos that I think demonstrate why I find the combat system rather satisfying.

Ya I agree that they probably didn’t want to alienate GW1 players, but I think they did that anyway, so whatever.

But, ya, things like kiting and dodging are good examples of positions and movement, but when I think of action based combat I think of things like Street Fighter, but in 3D.

So like, you know how the thief has the backstab thing? More of that. Or, like if someone is blocking their front, you need to hit them from behind. That kind of positioning and movement. The actual “dance” of the fight.

It is definitely a step in a different direction, although I would hesitate to call it better or worse, just different. However, I think that it could have been done in a way that still provided more depth to combat than what we have now.

I agree OP. I felt way more immersed in GW1’s Tyria than GW2’s.

Dedalus.3065:

The thing is, guild wars 2 drops the quantity of skills because it strives to be more of an action game than what guild wars was. It relies more on execution than builds, and I think that that’s one of the reasons why guild wars players feel disappointed. What they need to understand though, is that there are a lot of people who prefer this system.

Personally, I want to spend as little time as possible on mixing builds and changing armor. I would like everyone to be equal so that the only thing determining the winner is his actual skill. Of course, I’m a pvp player and I understand how equal footing would be boring for the pve people.

But that’s the thing, for an action game, all they really added was a pretty shallow dodge mechanic.

If they wanted a real action game, what happened to things like blocking or parrying or making movement and positioning matter. I mean, they did it a little, but it isn’t spread out to every class type.

As such, we have a really bad mix of action and skill based combat that doesn’t work all that well. If they wanted to make it more action oriented, I would have preferred to see the same things that make action oriented games great in this game – and we don’t.

Also, this is just my experience, but one of the biggest complaints I hear about GW2 is about the combat system. This is from all sorts of people, not just GW1 players.

Guns and Giblets.9308:

Space Cow.2431:

In my opinion, GW2’s skill system is far too restrictive. The biggest issue is in the weapon system, because those are the skills you will be using the most in combat and there isn’t much room for experimentation there. The pool of skills to choose from is simply too small once you’ve committed to your race and profession at character creation.

The only thing GW2 does better than GW1 as far as the skill system goes is Traits. Traits are infinitely better than attribute points.

I don’t think Anet would overhaul their skill system this far into the game’s lifetime, but I might as well bring up my two cents and see what happens.

I agree. Guild Wars was like a card game with a huge deck out of which you could pick a few cards to combat opponents, all the while hunting perfect cards to arrange your build. The skill hunt was probably the part of the game I enjoyed most. The fact that I only ended up using a handful of skills from that complete deck didn’t diminish the adventure of growth and exploration.

Guild Wars 2 went too far in the other direction. I don’t know whether this was to cater to the larger MMO population and/or an overreaction to the GW1 system, but it’s too restrictive and, ultimately, boring. Once you learn the best rotations on the best weapon(s), you are left with little else in terms of character growth, save a few utilities you can unlock. This doesn’t take a lot of time, and doesn’t leave you with the feeling of accomplishment I so often had when mastering a character in Guild Wars 1.

Sure, there’s customization in the broad sense, but on a game centered on who generates the most dps in any given fight, your viable options become quite limited.

It would take an enormous amount of balance, but even being able to swap out one or two skills on any weapon would add a lot of interesting customization. But, like you said, I doubt it will happen at this stage.

Alas, it could have been so fun.

Part of the problem is the skills themselves. They aren’t interesting. They are just different ways of doing damage, and little else.

Where’s the bull’s strike? Where’s the frenzy that gave you 33% faster attack but traded with taking double damage? Where’s deep wound? These were all interesting mechanics that did very special important things. There is very little of these skills left. Hell, there is very little interesting mechanics left.

Where are the hexes? Each mesmer hex was more interesting than 90% of the skills in GW2. Diversion was maybe the most interesting non-elite skill ever.

What about conditions? Where is deep wound and daze? Besides blind, those were some of the most interesting conditions in GW1.

What about things like guardian, or spirit bond, or Aegis, or any of the protection skills?

The FACT is that the skills that defined the various metas that existed during GW1 on both the PvE and PvP side were way more interesting than what we have now, which is basically – how do you like your damage served?

Vayne.8563:

There are always people in every single game who absolutely MUST do things most efficiently.

Well, the original post is specifically talking about PvP in much of his post. Let me tell you something about PvP. If you aren’t being efficient in PvP, you are losing.

Romeo.4378:

You know what, I’m just gonna say it.

I don’t like not having a trinity. The fights felt chaotic to me and I didn’t feel like I had a sense of responsibility like I have in other MMO’s, especially when I am healing/tanking. It’s just not for me.

And honestly, is there still a cap on how many conditions/bleeds a boss can have on him?

What you are feeling is the lack of depth in the combat of this game. It is something that could be done better, even without a trinity, but most likely won’t happen.

I am a PvP player as well and feel the same way.

Maybe we will get lucky and ANet will make combat better for PvP as they continue to separate the skills from PvE more.

Hopefully, too, they can make some more objectives in PvP other than conquest.

Until then, PvP is going to continue to feel “meh,” as you put it.

Claudius.5381:

I miss clay in this thread

Who, me?