Guild Wars 2

Karizee.8076:

clay.7849:

My take on the manifesto is that this game is nothing like GW1, and they clearly said if you loved GW1 you would love GW2. I think we can safely assume that when they wrote that they meant it. However, what they ended up with has alienated pretty much every GW1 player I know.

All the GW1 players I know think GW2 is so much better.

I don’t doubt that. Although, I do doubt that they played competitive PvP.

Heijincks.9267:

Fernling.1729:

NCsoft stock has significantly dropped since the release of GW2, that tells me that something isn’t doing too well.

NCSoft isn’t only about GW2. About the time when GW2 was released, City of Heroes was shut down and that had some serious backlash.

So you think that CoH’s revenue was a big enough loss to counter the massive amounts of money that GW2 made at release?

If anything CoH was shut down to help revenue, not to hurt it.

But, I agree as a publisher of games, and not the developer, GW2 is just a small part of the entire NCSoft company and as such NCSoft’s ability to be worth less than half of what it was a year and a half ago, may not have anything to do with GW2.

The gaming industry in general is down.

Jski.6180:

clay.7849:

Heijincks.9267:

clay.7849:

Behellagh.1468:

Gab Superstar.4059:

Commercially it is doing well.

But it had to sacrifice manifesto, the credibility of the developers, and the experience of the players to achieve it.

This is getting old. How did they sacrifice the manifesto?

Have you read it?

Whether they sacrificed the manifesto or not depends on the person. The topic at hand whether or not they did is the grind. Some people might consider getting exotics itself a grind (and a gear treadmill at that), and from the very start even before ascended the manifesto was broken already.

Well, here is my take on the grind thing. I get that you don’t need anything that is “grind-able” and that it doesn’t gate content – so that’s fine. Although, there is a lot of repetition to get items that is built into the game, which is kind of what a grind is.

Really, I could care less about the grind thing.

My take on the manifesto is that this game is nothing like GW1, and they clearly said if you loved GW1 you would love GW2. I think we can safely assume that when they wrote that they meant it. However, what they ended up with has alienated pretty much every GW1 player I know.

Yes YOUR take is this but not every one thinks the same way as you do. Most of the players who loved GW1 DO like GW2 but most player of GW1 often would stop playing GW1 for long bits of time waiting for expansion to add in new content so from the very start the GW1 player base was a non consistent group.

You may be right for a lot of people, but I can safely say that I am right when it comes to competitive PvP players.

Also, do you really think this game is like GW1 in any way shape or form other than lore?

Heijincks.9267:

clay.7849:

Behellagh.1468:

Gab Superstar.4059:

Commercially it is doing well.

But it had to sacrifice manifesto, the credibility of the developers, and the experience of the players to achieve it.

This is getting old. How did they sacrifice the manifesto?

Have you read it?

Whether they sacrificed the manifesto or not depends on the person. The topic at hand whether or not they did is the grind. Some people might consider getting exotics itself a grind (and a gear treadmill at that), and from the very start even before ascended the manifesto was broken already.

Well, here is my take on the grind thing. I get that you don’t need anything that is “grind-able” and that it doesn’t gate content – so that’s fine. Although, there is a lot of repetition to get items that is built into the game, which is kind of what a grind is.

Really, I could care less about the grind thing.

My take on the manifesto is that this game is nothing like GW1, and they clearly said if you loved GW1 you would love GW2. I think we can safely assume that when they wrote that they meant it. However, what they ended up with has alienated pretty much every GW1 player I know.

Reya.1895:

Going to respectfully disagree with Clay for the primary reason that the population there is so low now, and secondly because you can solo all the content to achieve HoM points anyway.

I agree, get in a guild, the more GW1 players that can help you the better. Get your heroes as soon as possible, i strongly disagree with blowing hours/days/months trying to make hero builds that will work.
Also lots of people are saying use Monk healers (heroes), i actually disagree on this point in a big way too. Monk players are amazing, monk heroes are really .. .bad. … i use Necro/Rit/Ele hybrids to heal. I also disagree with playing a monk, personal preference, but find I’m most effective when playing as a spike-damage dealer or similar so i can nuke dangerous targets and let my heroes deal with the rest (eg. elementalist).

Bottom line is – why are you going to play? if your primary goal is to get HoM points for GW2, then don’t spend too much time trying to get into a guild or mess around with builds or anything – do what you can to set yourself up asap to get some points! On top of that, don’t blow short-term expense on a handful of points, aim for 30 and work on whatever the hardest 30-point thing will be, plenty of points will ‘just happen’ along the way.

If you plan on playing to get involved, see all the content, etc (btw, lore-wise you’ll get from completing each campaign once, don’t really need more than that) then being in a guild and stuffing around is probably going to suit you just fine.

-Reya

I love your entire post. I don’t think we disagree at all.

Buy low and sell high on the TP.

Well, the first thing you want to know about monks is to kill the enemy’s monk before they kill yours.

nekitten234:

erm .. under OT i meant Calae (IIRC) … dang stopping … just making things worse

Lol. Well, if you look at my post to him, I think you will see we are on the same side of that argument.

nekitten234:

nekitten234:

clay.7849:

nekitten234:

Xia.3485:

clay.7849:

I am actually the marketing director for multiple divisions of a company, so I think I know a little bit about these things…

Sure you are. Sure. lol

From what I read so far, I’m inclined to believe in that … oh … marketingdroid … there, fixed

Is it more satisfying to bash a person rather than comment on the discussion at hand?

Personal attack? No.

“marketdroid” is term I’m using for the people which whole posts/talks/whatever are constructed on reiterating and reiterating “one big truth/fact/science about everyone (or at least 4 of the 5 dentists) agrees” without even stopping and listening “other side”. And IMHO posts in this thread fit that description (there is another old-style forum term for that too…)

As no one in this conversation has any real knowledge about “state of the game” we can just guess about it and agree to disagree.

… and can admit mistake

I mixed you with OT and my reaction was based more on that than solely on your’s posts with which I may disagree but they are not in the same class as OT. Suits me right to not double-check poster name.

NHF

Lol, that’s cool. I just wasn’t sure what marketdroid referred to.

It’s all good.

nekitten234:

Xia.3485:

clay.7849:

I am actually the marketing director for multiple divisions of a company, so I think I know a little bit about these things…

Sure you are. Sure. lol

From what I read so far, I’m inclined to believe in that … oh … marketingdroid … there, fixed

Is it more satisfying to bash a person rather than comment on the discussion at hand?

Roga.3284:

You do realize that the game industry as a whole is targeting males age 32-39. (the guys that were 5-12years old when original nintendo came out)
That is their key demographic. (this isn’t my opinion, thats the actual projection they have researched to be the most profitable.)

As a male in that age group. They do it very well…. Unfortunatly, WE are the true gamers.
We cut our teeth on games you can’t even handle if they were released today.

Don’t try to talk down to us with the whole “they don’t have time to play games”. While that is true, the industry knows who the real audience is.

Oh man, preach on. Rez points? We don’t need no rez points. You get to start the whole game over when you die!

Haha. Seriously though, this post is 100% on the money.

Pinch.4273:

Hickeroar.9734:

If you want hardcore, high level fractals and WvW.

Fractals are not hardcore. Group comp plays more of a role than strategy.

Neither is WvW…

I just want challenging content similar to what we had in GW1. I don’t need any special rewards, I just want something that is more fun than zerging bosses with a gazillion hit points or going through linear dungeons and fighting the same mobs with bosses getting increased hit points.

By the way, here is the study that shows only 29% of people 50 years and older play video games. This way you can’t say we shouldn’t believe everything we read on Wiki:

http://www.theesa.com/facts/pdfs/ESA_EF_2012.pdf

It was a study that was done by the Entertainment Software Association and was used in the Wiki article. But, thanks for playing !

Surprisingly enough, I was able to find it using the references in the wiki article that I’m not supposed to trust or believe.

Geotherma.2395:

clay.7849:

So, the level of complexity between Wii bowling and GW2 is the same? kitten, get me a 50 year old that has never played the game before and have them make an omnomberry bar. That should keep them busy for a few hours. You can’t honestly think that MMO’s are as easy to play as Wii bowling.

29% of people 50 years and older play video games. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game)

Less than 5% of people playing MMO’s in this study were over 50 years old. (http://petsymposium.org/2011/papers/hotpets11-final7Likarish.pdf)

Yea, so, there aren’t a lot of 50 year olds playing MMO’s. It may increase, but I doubt it will increase much to make much of a difference.

You seem to dislike the idea of demographics at all – which is pretty much defining what kind of people like stuff. In this case, MMORPG style video games.

I know a 57 year old Master Sargent who lead convoys and raids using land nav technology and GPS to find targets to destroy and kill in the middle of Baghdad. To say someone can’t do something because of age is appalling to me. You clearly have no idea what people are capable of. At any age.

And the fact you believe everything you see on Wikipedia… really shows a lot about your mentality.

I didn’t say they can’t do it. I said it is more complex. MMO games are more complex than Wii bowling. Fact. You can’t dispute this even a little bit. It is the same as saying gravity exists.

Also, I’m not sure if you know this, but Wikipedia has this little thing called “references” that “reference” where the information came from. Amazing how that works. Shows a lot about your mentality too…

Nerokis.8405:

NeverSmileWF.1684:

Based on things like XFire and anything like it – yes the game is dying.

I suppose you believe all MMOs are dying, then, considering GW2 is the second most active MMO according to Xfire. Following The Razing, GW2 saw a 9% spike in week over week activity, and it’s safe to assume the activation of the Super Adventure Box was/is an even bigger draw.

Source: http://nosygamer.blogspot.com/2013/04/the-digital-dozen-2-april-2013.html

[EDIT]

I somehow missed this.

clay.7849:

? It’s funny how the majority of people on a forum about a game don’t represent the majority. That is so logical.

Your condescension here is unwarranted, because it’s absolutely true that forum goers are rarely representative of the majority of players. They’re an absolutely tiny percentage of the player base, and not only that, they’re also a self-selecting group: they tend to be invested, passionate, opinionated, loud, and unusually negative. There tends to be this echo chamber effect where simplistic, angry narratives dominate over nuanced, sympathetic ones.

That strikes me as something that should be obvious, and very easily observable across different forums, comment sections, and so on. But if you’d like verification, here’s a relevant study and a very well written blog post by someone who would know:

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn19821-flaming-drives-online-social-networkkittenml
http://www.eldergame.com/2008/06/taming-the-forum-tiger/

Remember, the only person you’re speaking for is yourself. When you start pretending you’re speaking for the majority, it becomes incredibly difficult to take you seriously. That’s especially true in the context of forum discussions, where all too often it’s the shrillest taking up the mantle of “spokesperson for the majority.” Hopefully you aren’t doing that.

Well, I know that I’m not speaking for the majority, but I also know I am speaking for more than myself.

I mean, I can easily say that the majority of the GW1 competitive PvP scene has basically forsaken GW2.

Also, no offense, but you may be right that forums are not a good “random sample” of the game, but I don’t see any statistics to back that up from the links you posted. In fact, I would go so far as to say that the first link doesn’t really address the issue of WHO is interacting in a forum. Rather, it seems to come up with generalizations about HOW people interact in a forum.

I don’t necessarily think that forums are a perfect random sample of a game, but I have yet to see any concrete evidence showing it one way or the other. Instead, I am saying that the forums ARE a sample of the gaming population, and as such, we can at least get some information from them. I think most sane people would agree that there is at least something to be gained from reading the forums with a grain of salt.

What I was trying to say to Xia, who likes to make attacks personal, and thus gets the same thing in return, is that we can see that there are very opinionated perceptions about how this game should go.

We can see and understand that there are two very divided populations of people that either like a gear treadmill or don’t like a gear treadmill. Regardless of whether a person actually knows what the term is, they understand what is happening in a game when it is introduced. So, I think it is perfectly appropriate to use the forums as one example of showing that those two populations exist, and that it would be nearly impossible to make those two populations happy under one title’s “roof”.

The only other argument I had which involves the forums, is similar to the one above: the lack of any real stance by ANet to make a game that favors one type of player over another leads to arguments about the game within the community. Basically, you can’t please all the people all the time, and in trying to do so, you run the risk of alienating everyone by not making a game that is really for anyone. Of course, there are exceptions to every rule.

Last, I think that the GW2 forums are different than other forum negativity in that while there is general negativity about the game that we can all expect, there is way more arguing over what road this game needs to head down. That is because this game hasn’t decided to take a path that leads to one niche or another. Therefore, very few people feel the game is going down the path that best fits them.

I hope I said that so that I clearly get my thoughts across.

These are just observations. I don’t think they are laws or rules, but I do think there is some truth behind them, whether they turn out to be right or wrong.

The way that the water droplets cling to your screen when you get out of the water is fantastic.

Also, the way that they made part of the UI the experience, such as when you get blinded and the screen darkens.

marnick.4305:

clay.7849:

Cowrex.9564:

Reya.1895:

Cowrex.9564 and Dyntheos.5719 feel free to add me in-game if you wanna chat about it rq, as that can be easier to back-and-forth than on forums.

If you want to go for 30/50 HoM points (all the tangible rewards) then here’s a few tips to get you going.

1: don’t aim for 50/50 HoM or God Walking Amongst Mere Mortals titles, time investment will be too high, you won’t do it
2: use http://hom.guildwars2.com/en/ to track your progress and set goals on what you’ll do to reach 30
3: pick a character and focus on playing it, try not to make alts – you only need alts for 50/50.

a] your first goal should be (as grandmafunk suggested) playing in Nightfall to get the heroes, it’s the most rewarding of all the campaigns, gives you heroes and free bonus skills (with hero skill points)
b] find some skill builds for heroes that will work anywhere, i have a few i can give you or you can look up something like pvxwiki – the sooner you get those builds on your heroes the easier+faster it will be, invest in your heroes as fast as you can as early as you can – cheap max-stat weapons, good skills
c] as early as you can pick up the storybook (http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Storybook) related to the campaign you are playing through. the bonuses they give for content you’ll be playing through anyway shouldn’t be overlooked!
d] apart from collecting heroes and giving them weapons/skills focus on completing each campaign (all missions, including optionals you can skip) on Normal WITH bonuses for a few easy titles toward HoM and significant map/town exposure.

Like I said feel free to add me, i’m in aussie timezone though.

-Reya
PS: i have a stack of stuff in GW1 that i would sell for GW2 gold – minis/money/weapons/etc. we’d both have to agree on an exchange rate and naturally there’s no way of affirming either of us don’t get scammed. up to you, i’m willing to risk since i won’t use the stuff any more anyway.
PPS: Dyntheos.5719 just re-read your post. If you only want a few points you shouldn’t buy all campaigns. You have to have Eye of the North to access HoM, you have to have one other campaign as well as Eye of the North, I suggest Nightfall.

Will do boss! I’ll let you know as soon as I get it! It’s a good tihng that the GW Trilogy is only 29.99 bucks!

These are good ideas, but I would suggest against them. Play GW1 like it was played during its glory days. Find a guild (there are still players left), do some cooperative missions, have fun making your own build.

Don’t rely on heroes and PvX builds to get you through the game. Enjoy the game as it was originally intended. That was when it was glorious.

If you want titles and things, go for it, but really I would just play the game for the fun of playing the game, because without any rewards or titles, the game is good enough to play.

Are you really suggesting him to have Alesia carry him through the game?

To OP: do yourself a favour and get a good gwpvx monk build on your heroes. Will spare you a lot of headdesks.

Well, if he was in a guild, he could find a monk hopefully. But, yes, that would be one exception if you can’t find a monk.

The idea was just try to find a group of people to play with rather than running solo with heroes. The game was designed to be a COORP. As such, the experience is way better with others.

From what I have seen, the people left are really helpful to help.

marnick.4305:

clay.7849:

marnick.4305:

clay.7849:

marnick.4305:

clay.7849:

Behellagh.1468:

Gab Superstar.4059:

Commercially it is doing well.

But it had to sacrifice manifesto, the credibility of the developers, and the experience of the players to achieve it.

This is getting old. How did they sacrifice the manifesto?

Have you read it?

I’ve seen it and it’s still the same ideological blueprint that seems to govern all changes to the game. While it’s a blueprint, some things have been implemented differently because theory and reality unfortunately don’t always align.

However, getting max stats is still relatively easy, and the game is just as grind free as GW1.

My biggest problem with the manifesto is that they said that people who loved GW1 will love GW2. Sure, there are some, but as the games are really night and day different, it left a lot of people out to dry.

Namely, PvP players.

I loved GW1, was pretty much a pvx player for 7 years and indeed, I feel for the PvP players who were left in the cold. I really hope they can make a full turn here, but designing a good pvp game is incredibly difficult. The combat basis exists but there’s so much lacking currently. I would focus on:

- ToPK-style tournament
- Removal of capture points as a winning mechanic. Deadmatch, priest Annihilation, King of the hill are far more interesting and engaging.
- Adding at least 20 utility, 5 healing skills and 5 elite skills per profession

I think those three would be a good start.

I would be happy with GvG to start with again…

One of the biggest problems with GW1 pvp was fractured playerbase. As such I’d make GvG a subset of ToPK. Same maps, same mechanics, just with guilds instead of teams/solo.

Sounds good to me!

My problem with heart quests is that they don’t really make quests any different, it’s still the same kill 10 centaurs or gather 10 bags of whatever… What they don’t do though is give you a compelling reason to check out other places, you just happen upon them while exploring.

What if there is some totally awesome place in the game that is hard to find? Am I expected to hug every nook and cranny of this game to look for areas? Does this game expect me to use Wiki as part of my personal arsenal to find fun things?

I would much rather get a quest in an outpost with a compelling story and have an actual adventure, where I discover the world through a story/quest.

marnick.4305:

clay.7849:

marnick.4305:

clay.7849:

Behellagh.1468:

Gab Superstar.4059:

Commercially it is doing well.

But it had to sacrifice manifesto, the credibility of the developers, and the experience of the players to achieve it.

This is getting old. How did they sacrifice the manifesto?

Have you read it?

I’ve seen it and it’s still the same ideological blueprint that seems to govern all changes to the game. While it’s a blueprint, some things have been implemented differently because theory and reality unfortunately don’t always align.

However, getting max stats is still relatively easy, and the game is just as grind free as GW1.

My biggest problem with the manifesto is that they said that people who loved GW1 will love GW2. Sure, there are some, but as the games are really night and day different, it left a lot of people out to dry.

Namely, PvP players.

I loved GW1, was pretty much a pvx player for 7 years and indeed, I feel for the PvP players who were left in the cold. I really hope they can make a full turn here, but designing a good pvp game is incredibly difficult. The combat basis exists but there’s so much lacking currently. I would focus on:

- ToPK-style tournament
- Removal of capture points as a winning mechanic. Deadmatch, priest Annihilation, King of the hill are far more interesting and engaging.
- Adding at least 20 utility, 5 healing skills and 5 elite skills per profession

I think those three would be a good start.

I would be happy with GvG to start with again…

Xia.3485:

clay.7849:

Show me where I generalized the entire playerbase please?

Still arguing with the world? Just re-read most of your posts for the answer.

Do you have another doomsday theory for us today? Predictions on the next expansions timing and sales outlook perhaps?

Man, I really get you upset don’t I?

My Dead Characters.9517:

clay.7849:

My Dead Characters.9517:

clay.7849:

Behellagh.1468:

Gab Superstar.4059:

Commercially it is doing well.

But it had to sacrifice manifesto, the credibility of the developers, and the experience of the players to achieve it.

This is getting old. How did they sacrifice the manifesto?

Have you read it?

they did not sacrifice any manifesto, credibility, and the only experience sacrificed was with the wvw ranks not being rolled back, but then everyone starts off the same so everyone is encouraged to do lots of wvw to attempt to get their wvw rank up, so it attracts more to wvw, so it is ok that they did that. sacrificing manifesto, and sacrificing credibility, is an OPINION, and ALWAYS will be, it will NEVER be a FACT. get over it clay, its your opinion and we all know yourn entitled to it, but you are not entitled to genralize the entire playerbase to fit your every whim. that is a privelage of the devs, and you will never be a dev with your attitude.

So when they said that what you love about GW1 will be in GW2, we would assume that they also meant the quite active PvP population in GW1 as well, right?

Shame they didn’t follow up on that promise…

That is a fact.

Stop getting so mad that people have a different opinions than you. I’m not mad that people have different opinions than me. I just think it is funny that I clearly state that all of my opinions are opinions, and people tell me that I’m wrong and that their opinions are facts.

I realize I might be full of kitten. Everyone else needs to realize that they could be full of kitten too instead of taking criticism of a game personally.

know what i find funny here? the fact that i said nothing about getting mad at your for having a different opinion, nor did i imply it. i simply stated that the reason people are getting a litttle frustrated with you is that you keep making HUGE generalizations. i honestly dont want to get into this for real as far as is this a successful game or not, its successful to me because i like it and that is all i care about. i was just trying to explain to you that most of these comments that were directed toward you are because you generalize your opinions over the entire playerbase, when the entire playerbase’s opinions do not match yours for every player.

Show me where I generalized the entire playerbase please?

Cowrex.9564:

Reya.1895:

Cowrex.9564 and Dyntheos.5719 feel free to add me in-game if you wanna chat about it rq, as that can be easier to back-and-forth than on forums.

If you want to go for 30/50 HoM points (all the tangible rewards) then here’s a few tips to get you going.

1: don’t aim for 50/50 HoM or God Walking Amongst Mere Mortals titles, time investment will be too high, you won’t do it
2: use http://hom.guildwars2.com/en/ to track your progress and set goals on what you’ll do to reach 30
3: pick a character and focus on playing it, try not to make alts – you only need alts for 50/50.

a] your first goal should be (as grandmafunk suggested) playing in Nightfall to get the heroes, it’s the most rewarding of all the campaigns, gives you heroes and free bonus skills (with hero skill points)
b] find some skill builds for heroes that will work anywhere, i have a few i can give you or you can look up something like pvxwiki – the sooner you get those builds on your heroes the easier+faster it will be, invest in your heroes as fast as you can as early as you can – cheap max-stat weapons, good skills
c] as early as you can pick up the storybook (http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Storybook) related to the campaign you are playing through. the bonuses they give for content you’ll be playing through anyway shouldn’t be overlooked!
d] apart from collecting heroes and giving them weapons/skills focus on completing each campaign (all missions, including optionals you can skip) on Normal WITH bonuses for a few easy titles toward HoM and significant map/town exposure.

Like I said feel free to add me, i’m in aussie timezone though.

-Reya
PS: i have a stack of stuff in GW1 that i would sell for GW2 gold – minis/money/weapons/etc. we’d both have to agree on an exchange rate and naturally there’s no way of affirming either of us don’t get scammed. up to you, i’m willing to risk since i won’t use the stuff any more anyway.
PPS: Dyntheos.5719 just re-read your post. If you only want a few points you shouldn’t buy all campaigns. You have to have Eye of the North to access HoM, you have to have one other campaign as well as Eye of the North, I suggest Nightfall.

Will do boss! I’ll let you know as soon as I get it! It’s a good tihng that the GW Trilogy is only 29.99 bucks!

These are good ideas, but I would suggest against them. Play GW1 like it was played during its glory days. Find a guild (there are still players left), do some cooperative missions, have fun making your own build.

Don’t rely on heroes and PvX builds to get you through the game. Enjoy the game as it was originally intended. That was when it was glorious.

If you want titles and things, go for it, but really I would just play the game for the fun of playing the game, because without any rewards or titles, the game is good enough to play.

My Dead Characters.9517:

clay.7849:

Behellagh.1468:

Gab Superstar.4059:

Commercially it is doing well.

But it had to sacrifice manifesto, the credibility of the developers, and the experience of the players to achieve it.

This is getting old. How did they sacrifice the manifesto?

Have you read it?

they did not sacrifice any manifesto, credibility, and the only experience sacrificed was with the wvw ranks not being rolled back, but then everyone starts off the same so everyone is encouraged to do lots of wvw to attempt to get their wvw rank up, so it attracts more to wvw, so it is ok that they did that. sacrificing manifesto, and sacrificing credibility, is an OPINION, and ALWAYS will be, it will NEVER be a FACT. get over it clay, its your opinion and we all know yourn entitled to it, but you are not entitled to genralize the entire playerbase to fit your every whim. that is a privelage of the devs, and you will never be a dev with your attitude.

So when they said that what you love about GW1 will be in GW2, we would assume that they also meant the quite active PvP population in GW1 as well, right?

Shame they didn’t follow up on that promise…

That is a fact.

Stop getting so mad that people have a different opinions than you. I’m not mad that people have different opinions than me. I just think it is funny that I clearly state that all of my opinions are opinions, and people tell me that I’m wrong and that their opinions are facts.

I realize I might be full of kitten. Everyone else needs to realize that they could be full of kitten too instead of taking criticism of a game personally.

marnick.4305:

clay.7849:

Behellagh.1468:

Gab Superstar.4059:

Commercially it is doing well.

But it had to sacrifice manifesto, the credibility of the developers, and the experience of the players to achieve it.

This is getting old. How did they sacrifice the manifesto?

Have you read it?

I’ve seen it and it’s still the same ideological blueprint that seems to govern all changes to the game. While it’s a blueprint, some things have been implemented differently because theory and reality unfortunately don’t always align.

However, getting max stats is still relatively easy, and the game is just as grind free as GW1.

My biggest problem with the manifesto is that they said that people who loved GW1 will love GW2. Sure, there are some, but as the games are really night and day different, it left a lot of people out to dry.

Namely, PvP players.

@Vayne

1. I don’t think a B2P model has anything to do with the success of the game. When I use the term success, I think longevity is a good indicator of success for an MMO. B2P may have some interesting reasons why a player doesn’t have to give up the game in it’s entirety, but it also doesn’t have anything to do with the game getting boring and not worth coming back to. I would reject the idea that a B2P game makes up for the lack of underlying causes as to why a game would die. Just like, a game isn’t going to die just because it is has subscription model.

2. I think it is naive to think that GW2 isn’t competing with WoW. If not, who are they competing with? Just like everyone keeps reminding me, this game is a MMORPG. I think WoW, as an MMORPG, would be competing for the same people, namely MMORPG players. I don’t think there are millions of people outside that market where making another MMORPG would target them sufficiently, regardless of the perceived casual to hardcore level. My thought would be that, if you want to target an audience that is different from MMORPGs, then you would need to make something that is sufficiently different from MMORPGs. GW1 was much more different than GW2 in that regard. GW2 is much more like WoW than GW1 is. In fact, as an MMO, GW2 is very much like WoW. Yes, they are huge differences, but as an MMO, they really fall in to the same themepark MMO identity. Yes, it may be newer and flashier, but underneath all that, the mechanics are the same.

3. Here is my definition of failed: not reaching the lofty sales goals that everyone keeps saying AAA MMO’s aspire to. You seem to think that games with a modest population aren’t dead. True, they may not be. But, the game certainly failed. The whole idea that you need to make a AAA MMO to make a lot of money just doesn’t seem to work. It did with one game: WoW – which was in the right place at the right time. It was a niche game that took off. If GW2 doesn’t surpass the same kinds of sales figures as GW1, then it hasn’t done what everyone said it was set out to do. They could have had healthy growth from GW1 to GW2 if the games were more alike than different just marketing to their previous customers.

As someone who is in the marketing field, I think it is historically accurate to say that 1) marketing to a niche has a higher ROI than marketing to the general public and 2) successful ideas many times rise from niche to mass market.

4. You suppose that PvE players in GW1 generally like GW2. I don’t know that is true or not, but I do know many PvE players that don’t like GW2. Why?

Combat is a big part of it. You can talk about auto-attack and follow and all that stuff that GW2 does do better. But, what you don’t seem to see is that the combat in GW1 was much more interesting. It was more dynamic, required actual teamwork and has strategy. Yes, by the end, many people relied on posted builds and heroes, but generally speaking, I would put GW1’s glory days as pre-Nightfall. That was when cooperation was at an all time high and the combat was amazing. GW2 took a huge step back in many people’s opinions in that regard. The difference in combat between easy to difficult in GW2 is really just more HP’s and more damage output and more zerg. There is nothing as fun about taking down a boss that takes 5 minutes of doing the same thing over and over when in GW1 you had to use actual strategy and tactics to defeat some bosses.

5. Yes, I think GW2’s timing for release was perfect. From little competition to right before Xmas. If, however, they fail to reach the kind of lofty sales numbers that everyone says is the reason they made GW2 an MMO and unlike GW1, then it was all for naught.

6. Some people do really like the game. A lot of people don’t. A lot of people like the game enough or see enough potential to keep hanging on. With each relatively poor update, more people will eventually fade away. This game has amazing potential. But, it isn’t even close to being realized. Personally, I think ANet, as an extension of NCSoft, will continue to milk their customers for money the easiest way possible rather than continue to try to make a great game.

I seriously hope I am wrong. I would like to find a game that I can play for a while. Sadly, I find myself spending more time in GW1 than in GW2 and I haven’t played that game in years. But, even with all of its “oldness” it is still a way better game, IMO.

GW2 is a game that has great potential, but right now, isn’t all that great. At least not for me and may others.

Behellagh.1468:

Gab Superstar.4059:

Commercially it is doing well.

But it had to sacrifice manifesto, the credibility of the developers, and the experience of the players to achieve it.

This is getting old. How did they sacrifice the manifesto?

Have you read it?

Xia.3485:

clay.7849:

But, anyways, you agree that forums are a good way to gather useful information about a game, but if the majority of forums are negative, that doesn’t reflect on the success of the game?

Fascinating. Please tell me how that logic works again…

Because people only post when they aren’t playing; usually when they aren’t happy about something. That’s a good indicator that you made a personal relations snafu (ascended gear). Happy players generally aren’t posting (and some don’t even know the forum exists, or care it does). That being said the general tone of the forums will always be negative.

I truly wonder.. if Arena Net rand a script that would count each unique poster and compare it to each unique player.. would it even hit 1%?

(I’m too lazy to search for it, but Arena Net already posted a similar spiel to what I wrote. You aren’t worth the effort of me searching for it).

Anyway, I’m off to rest. Keep up your crusade of … whatever the hell makes you tick.

You can keep believing what you want, but feel free to take a look at this:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/riverside-inn-f2p916.html?pp=20&sort=lastpost&order=desc&daysprune=-1

This was as official of a forum for GW1 as any. I linked to 6 months after GW1’s release. Personally, I don’t find the majority of the threads nearly as negative as they are now.

Hawkian.6580:

Bravo, you’re a genius.

clay, you had remained relatively civil in debating these points and my arguments regarding the MMO marketplace. I was enjoying refuting your presuppositions to a point… pity.

By the way, the forums are not even close to a representative sample of the playerbase. I had thought you would know that before engaging in a discussion of this nature; it’s a key facet of the situation to be aware of.

Anyway, out of curiosity how long do you say the game has before it dies?

Again, you don’t know that.

Also, I feel like you were attacking me with some of your comments. If you weren’t, I am sorry.

Last, I guess it depends on the definition of dies. Personally, I think it is when the population starts to decrease enough for everyone to notice and servers need to be merged. It is very subjective, but I think it is one of those things that people will generally agree upon when we get there. I mean, the end is going to come eventually.

I think the tipping point to see whether we continue to see meaningful updates or an expansion would be Xmas 2013. You can say I’m crazy all you want, but I just don’t think an MMO game is going to benefit from being super casual. I’ve been wrong before.

Villious.8530:

Xia.3485:

clay.7849:

Proof? It’s funny how the majority of people on a forum about a game don’t represent the majority. That is so logical.

Only if you believe that everyone who is playing is also posting; which is ludicrous at best.

Was.. that your belief?

How do you know that the people posting in the forums is not a small snapshot of the larger community? Sounds like you have insight to the numbers…..please share.

Without factual data, opinions such as these are like Schrödinger’s cat, and you can’t know the answer until the box is opened.

…..and Clay……you’re waiting your breath my friend. He’s not gonna get it.

I know. I think I’m about to give it a rest for the night. It’s funny how everyone gets so uptight when someone makes an assumption based on a few logical thoughts. I wasn’t trying to spell out the end of the world. Just merely suggesting something that, while may or may not be true, has some logical reasoning behind it.

Goodnight friend.

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

Xia.3485:

clay.7849:

Proof? It’s funny how the majority of people on a forum about a game don’t represent the majority. That is so logical.

Only if you believe that everyone who is playing is also posting; which is ludicrous at best.

Was.. that your belief?

I think everyone that is posting cares enough about what happened to this game to care enough to post on this forum – and that they bought and experienced the game.

I’m sorry, but is it ludicrous to think that someone who purchased the game and quit’s opinion is less valid than someone who is still playing? If anything, as a business owner, I would want to know why someone quit.

I would be willing to bet that your position in the world doesn’t make you think about things that way. Unfortunately, when you get higher up in the ranks of corporate America, you find out that is one of the questions everyone is asking.

This may be true, but the biggest percentage of the people who join a forum never post to it and this is documented by easily researched numbers. I used to moderate a Guild Wars 2 fan forum, and the numbers were a matter of public record, because the forum displayed those numbers. And this is true of countless forums across the internet. You should do some research before you claim people are making stuff up. I seldom make things up, but I don’t always quote statistics for stuff that’s pretty much common knowledge.

I’ve also moderated Yahoo groups, quite a few of them. In general, around 15% of any forum or online group posts, and 85% lurk. So at last 85% of the people lurking may or may not have strong opinions.

There are many polls from many sources over the years about how many people actually visit game forums. It’s not as much as you think.

So, you’re saying that the people that do visit forums are not a sufficient enough random sample to draw any conclusions from?

Or, do you believe that companies like JD Power are bogus because they don’t ask everyone their opinion?

I’m saying that the people who post have the strongest opinions and if other people had very strong opinions, they might well post more. I’m saying that a very small percentage of people really have strong opinions about gaming. Given that a lot of people are, as stated before, casual gamers, they tend to think a lot less about gaming.

I can’t tell you how many times a week I end up having to explain the term vertical progression to Guild Wars 2 players.

First, there are strong opinions on both sides. You don’t need to have a negative opinion to have a strong one – so your point is rather moot.

Second, you don’t need to be able to define something in words in order to understand it. I knew that I didn’t like vertical progression well before I knew that there was a term for it.

Xia.3485:

clay.7849:

When did I say anything about employees? Clearly, you don’t feel that understanding by people stop playing the game is important. I believe that speaks for itself as to why you don’t really have a good grip on anything to do with business or marketing.

Here again you’re putting words in my mouth. I said the forums aren’t a good metric for the game’s success. I never said it wasn’t a source of useful information for a developer. I guess its easier for you to argue when you twist everything you read.

clay.7849:

I am actually the marketing director for multiple divisions of a company, so I think I know a little bit about these things…

Sure you are. Sure. lol

You don’t have to believe me.

But, anyways, you agree that forums are a good way to gather useful information about a game, but if the majority of forums are negative, that doesn’t reflect on the success of the game?

Fascinating. Please tell me how that logic works again…

Vayne.8563:

Drew.1865:

Heijincks.9267:

Death Reincarnated.3570:

IMO, GW2 will forever be know as the king of RNGMMOs. In few years time, people will recall this being a great game but sadly centred on luck/RNG.

Mark my words ANet.

Not even close. The RNG in this game is 100% for aesthetics. Play another MMORPG, and the RNG applies to better gear as well with no alternate method of obtainment… other than shelling out huge sums of money. That along with aesthetics too.

Wow doesn’t sell gear for money. The players actually earn it.

Gear is not a skin though. That’s one difference between a game that’s pay to win and not pay to win.

I think you are using the wrong definition of the word win as it relates to video games.

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

Xia.3485:

clay.7849:

Proof? It’s funny how the majority of people on a forum about a game don’t represent the majority. That is so logical.

Only if you believe that everyone who is playing is also posting; which is ludicrous at best.

Was.. that your belief?

I think everyone that is posting cares enough about what happened to this game to care enough to post on this forum – and that they bought and experienced the game.

I’m sorry, but is it ludicrous to think that someone who purchased the game and quit’s opinion is less valid than someone who is still playing? If anything, as a business owner, I would want to know why someone quit.

I would be willing to bet that your position in the world doesn’t make you think about things that way. Unfortunately, when you get higher up in the ranks of corporate America, you find out that is one of the questions everyone is asking.

This may be true, but the biggest percentage of the people who join a forum never post to it and this is documented by easily researched numbers. I used to moderate a Guild Wars 2 fan forum, and the numbers were a matter of public record, because the forum displayed those numbers. And this is true of countless forums across the internet. You should do some research before you claim people are making stuff up. I seldom make things up, but I don’t always quote statistics for stuff that’s pretty much common knowledge.

I’ve also moderated Yahoo groups, quite a few of them. In general, around 15% of any forum or online group posts, and 85% lurk. So at last 85% of the people lurking may or may not have strong opinions.

There are many polls from many sources over the years about how many people actually visit game forums. It’s not as much as you think.

So, you’re saying that the people that do visit forums are not a sufficient enough random sample to draw any conclusions from?

Or, do you believe that companies like JD Power are bogus because they don’t ask everyone their opinion?

Xia.3485:

clay.7849:

I think everyone that is posting cares enough about what happened to this game to care enough to post on this forum – and that they bought and experienced the game.

But they are not the majority nor can they speak for it. That’s why a game’s forum isn’t a proper metric for its success. (However if I follow your logic, WoW would have failed during burning crusade.)

clay.7849:

I’m sorry, but is it ludicrous to think that someone who purchased the game and quit’s opinion is less valid than someone who is still playing? If anything, as a business owner, I would want to know why someone quit.

You are saying this, not me. Its easier putting words in people’s mouths isn’t it?

clay.7849:

I would be willing to bet that your position in the world doesn’t make you think about things that way. Unfortunately, when you get higher up in the ranks of corporate America, you find out that is one of the questions everyone is asking.

Trust me, I don’t use my employee’s Facebook posts as a metric for their job performance.

You use a lot of words. Perhaps thinking before posting is in order?

Lol, perhaps reading a post is in order? When did I say anything about employees? Clearly, you don’t feel that understanding why people stop playing the game is important. I believe that speaks for itself as to why you don’t really have a good grip on anything to do with business or marketing.

I am actually the marketing director for multiple divisions of a company, so I think I know a little bit about these things…

Xia.3485:

clay.7849:

Proof? It’s funny how the majority of people on a forum about a game don’t represent the majority. That is so logical.

Only if you believe that everyone who is playing is also posting; which is ludicrous at best.

Was.. that your belief?

I think everyone that is posting cares enough about what happened to this game to care enough to post on this forum – and that they bought and experienced the game.

I’m sorry, but is it ludicrous to think that someone who purchased the game and quit’s opinion is less valid than someone who is still playing? If anything, as a business owner, I would want to know why someone quit.

I would be willing to bet that your position in the world doesn’t make you think about things that way. Unfortunately, when you get higher up in the ranks of corporate America, you find out that is one of the questions everyone is asking.

Xia.3485:

Vayne.8563:

You do get opinionated responses, but that doesn’t prove anything since it’s the people who don’t respond you need to count there. The people who are arguing about it are obviously very strong in their views. But how many people just don’t care or think about it even. I’d wager most.

Most people don’t think deeply about their gaming experience, nor do they post on forums. I’d wager there are more people playing Guild Wars 2 right now who have never heard the term vertical progression than those who have.

Quite true.

The vast majority of MMO players don’t wade through the forums. Its always a very vocal community, or those who want to argue for arguing sake (and some being overtly rude and condescending while doing it) that frequent the forums. I doubt very much they represent “the community”.

In fact, it was always a minority of mmo players that would actually do any “end game content” like raids. Ask Blizzard, their internal data proved it and birthed the raid finder system (and the massive raid nerf to make them accessible).

As such, the tone or impressions you get from an MMO forum hardly qualify as “proof” of its success. Heck, its not even a valid metric.

On a side note, I’m surprised you’re all here arguing with him. People only understand or listen when they want to listen.

Proof? It’s funny how the majority of people on a forum about a game don’t represent the majority. That is so logical.

I think it is so funny that you think you are so high and mighty and smart as to think that what you are saying is the honest to goodness truth, and that there is no way that this game has any chance of being like every other MMO that has failed.

Seriously, what makes this game so much different? It is the same thing as all the rest.

At least GW1 was different…

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

Geotherma.2395:

clay.7849:

Xia.3485:

Geotherma.2395:

I can agree with the thought of games such as FFXI in mind. This is a game I used to love, it got a bit old however (for me) and I moved on. However it still holds many subs and just released yet another expansion. (8? 11?) Free to play games like Aion also hold both players who play often or don’t play often, both of which flood the cash store for “fun” things. However that game also offers advantages which by most peoples definition would be for hardcore gamers. But casual gamers use them as well. And that game is still around as well.

With Guild Wars 2 you buy and get what you pay for. You can at any time try other MMO’s, be 100% loyal to this, or leave and come back any time. Any type of player can put money into the pockets of the company. It matters more how cash shop items are sold, what is available, and the want and desire for them. And that applies to no single group. That applies to us all. I would simply say look at the fused weapon skins, to say only casual or hardcore players bought those chests based on their gameplay/style would just be silly.

Totally agree. In fact, you helped make my point. Also I’d like to point out it wasn’t I who brought the term hardcore or casual into conversation.

I think the best virtue of guild wars 2 is the ability to leave for a few months and return without having to grind to “catch up” to other players. The lack of effective gear treadmill is liberating. Even though some can argue that ascended gear began a treadmill none of the content appears balanced around gear (except for agony resistance, which is acquired where its used anyway).

I believe that if Arena Net wasn’t doing well financially, we’d see more gear and skins in the cash shop with talk of an expansion. Instead we are greeted with free content (the living story) and fun holiday events (Halloween, Christina and now this April Fools day game).

I don’t believe GW2 needs any of this:

… most hardcore gamers find this game to not include enough of what they want (gear treadmill, mounts, open world PvP, raids, etc.) Therefore, as more games become available that fill their desired niche they will leave.

Nor does it need the term hardcore pasted all over its forums.

Why did you edit my post to exclude “no gear treadmill?”

You are mis-representing my post. I don’t think that GW2 needs those things either, but GW2 doesn’t think that. They have said specifically that they don’t intent Ascended Gear to be the end of the gear treadmill. They said that they don’t intent level 80 to be the max level forever.

The purpose of the post was to show that ANet tries to give a little to everyone on both sides of the aisle, which doesn’t really appease anyone as most people are firmly on one side or the other. Ascended gear pretty much kitten off everyone.

Thanks for taking the time to not only purposefully exclude parts from my post, but to misrepresent it as well.

I disagree with this part bolded. There is really no proof of this, and people are generally believed to be open to change and change in behavior or moods. Which means anyone at any time can sway to either side. If anything I would say more people are swaying in the middle slightly to either side depending on the games content and theme. But thats an opinion, just like the above stated is. And as is true with that statement and mine, neither can be proven at this point.

You may be right, but looking around the forums, it seems that if you ask about gear treadmill you will get some pretty opinionated responses. Same with open world PvP, mounts, raiding, etc.

I agree people can change their minds, but it looks like our friend Xia is firmly opposed to some of those things. I wonder if he can change his mind?

You do get opinionated responses, but that doesn’t prove anything since it’s the people who don’t respond you need to count there. The people who are arguing about it are obviously very strong in their views. But how many people just don’t care or think about it even. I’d wager most.

Most people don’t think deeply about their gaming experience, nor do they post on forums. I’d wager there are more people playing Guild Wars 2 right now who have never heard the term vertical progression than those who have.

Again, you are making statements without any factual proof.

At least I can point to the forums for information. You just have the thoughts in your head which is slightly skewed by your fanboyism.

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

Xia.3485:

clay.7849:

It may, but it may not. Your point? Casual = limited interest. How can you argue that leads to more money? Oh, that’s right, you can’t.

You are having a tantrum aren’t you? Sorry. We should end the conversation before you get more upset.

By the way, the real money in gaming is now in casual games and cash shops. Its not for nothing failed mmos go free to play. But hey, if you want to believe otherwise its your right.

Proof? Links?

EVE seems to be doing quite well…

Eve is doing well, but last I checked, they didn’t have half a million subscribers. I’m guessing at least that number of people are playing Guild Wars 2 right, not daily but over all. And yes, it’s just a guess.

But if a couple of months ago they hit the 3 million market, and 2/3s of those people have stopped playing, you have a million people left. And more people do come to the game all the time, because we’re constantly getting new players in the guild.

A game can exist quite happily on half a million players or even less, and still make a profit. If Guild Wars 2 keeps getting better (and to many of us it is), then it’ll be here for a long time to come.

Wow, guesses and conjecture, but no real proof.

I would be willing to bet much less than 2 million people still play GW2.

EVE has ~500,000 subscribers currently.

I wonder if a F2P game can exist on just a half million players and continue to get support from NCSoft. I mean, they are looking to “reshuffle” everything. Or did you not hear that they are doing quite poorly and have pulled the plug on some games?

Geotherma.2395:

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

^^

Nappyychappy hit the nail on the head, IMO.

The definition of “casual player” doesn’t lend itself to the kind of dedication and “stickiness” you need to make a game like an MMO live for a long time.

Based on what evidence. It’s funny because I could actually make an argument for the opposite. I’m old enough where I don’t really want to bounce back and forth between multiple games. I’d rather go further in a single game.

The older you are, the less you tend to “bounce around”. That’s a young person’s game. It’s an attention span thing too.

The younger generation grew up with youtube and the internet, but the older generation really hasn’t. It’s the younger generation that tends to game hop. I’m quite happy to buy one game and stick with it, because I don’t want to keep going out and buying more games. And this would be even more true of people who have less time to play. They’d play a game, get a tiny tiny bit done weekly and not run out of content. It’s not the older, more mature people who run out of content, I’m guessing. It’s the content locusts. The people who tend to be younger, and not have a family.

We have a wide range of people in my guild, from 17 up until people in their sixities. The people who are older don’t play MUCH fewer games and stay with the longer on the whole than the people in their teens and early twenties. So if the average age of a gamer now is over 30 (which apparently it is according to studies), there’s less reason for many of these people to run out and continually buy new games.

There’ll be exceptions of course, but I think older people will stay with something they like longer, on the whole and they’ll have a longer attention span.

Oh yea, there are so many “older” people playing video games. Keep in mind I’m in my thirties, so when you talk about the people that didn’t grow up with the internet, it is over the age of 40.

Everyone I know that is 50 and over think video games are for little kids.

So, if you think that your generation is some great target for video games, especially something as complex as MMO’s, compared to say, Wii bowling, then go ahead and think that is some untapped gold mine. I’ll be over here laughing.

But, the only thing you keep saying is that my opinion is wrong and your opinion is right. Guess what, they are both opinions. You don’t like mine, and I don’t like yours. Neither is right or wrong until we find out. Which, by the way, I would think the population of this game after Xmas 2013 is a good indicator of how well this game is doing, but again, that is just my opinion.

Complex and Guild Wars 2 don’t belong in the same sentence. If a 6 year old can figure out basic combat, I’m sure that 50 year old wii bowling person can. You know they have tournaments in wii bowling for people 50-80+ years old? We have a 50 something year old in our guild, they play regularly. This game appeals to many types, hence why it is doing so well. And I still know military veterans who I served with in iraq who are in their late 40’s and 50’s who play several video games, some of which are MMO’s and not just FPS games. This whole blanketing everyone with the hardcore/casual term is getting old, as is the assumption of who likes the game and who doesn’t.

So, the level of complexity between Wii bowling and GW2 is the same? kitten, get me a 50 year old that has never played the game before and have them make an omnomberry bar. That should keep them busy for a few hours. You can’t honestly think that MMO’s are as easy to play as Wii bowling.

29% of people 50 years and older play video games. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game)

Less than 5% of people playing MMO’s in this study were over 50 years old. (http://petsymposium.org/2011/papers/hotpets11-final7Likarish.pdf)

Yea, so, there aren’t a lot of 50 year olds playing MMO’s. It may increase, but I doubt it will increase much to make much of a difference.

You seem to dislike the idea of demographics at all – which is pretty much defining what kind of people like stuff. In this case, MMORPG style video games.

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

Why another thread about stuff that we know nothing about. Companies that aren’t doing well hire all the time. Companies that are doing well, lay off people and continue to watch profits skyrocket. We don’t and won’t know the numbers about this game unless ANet wants to tell us. For every argument in this regard, there is a counter-argument.

Actually that’s true for most companies, but it’s not true for MMOs. Think about this for one second. If an MMO isn’t doing well, hiring more staff isn’t going to make it do better. I’ve used as an example the last two MMOs that “performed below expectations” according to what’s said in business journals who follow them. There are articles you can look up if you’re interested.

Every single MMO has certain expectations when it launches. If it performs below those expectations, which are based in part at least on the money spent to bring it to market, then they’ll have to restructure the staff. It’s just logical. If you can’t afford to pay staff on your income, the money has to come from somewhere.

In the case of SWToR, there was an expectation based on Bioware having a certain amount of renown and TSW appealing to more than the niche market it has found. Of the two TSW probably deserved the success more.

Further, how Guild Wars 2 is doing is a matter of public record. If you care to do even the smallest amount of research, you could look up the NCsoft quarterly report that they provide to their stockholders. While Blade and Soul under-performed, Guild Wars 2 was NCSoft’s most profitable game by far. And that’s without even revealing what the cash shop makes.

One last thing. Based on speculation, Guild Wars 2 was predicted by a Korean company, the kind of company to set the expectations to sell 3.2 million copies in the first year of business. It hit the 3 million mark before the half year was up. We don’t know how much more it sold, but I’d be willing to wager that it’s hit the .2 by now, and that means it’s exceed the expectations which were quoted for it. This very likely makes it a successful game. Again this is all a matter of public record.

If an MMO, any MMO, under-performed, particularly after the amount of time and energy and money that goes into it, you don’t start hiring more people to make it perform better. You start to cut your losses, as other MMOs have done recently and in the past.

And we’re not even talking about hiring one or two specific people. They’re hiring artists and programmers…it’s too broad a spectrum of hiring to assume anything but that the game is doing well…surely well enough to hire more people to create content.

Anet has no games other than Guild Wars and Guild Wars 2. Are you seriously suggesting the money to pay the new people is coming from Guild Wars 1?

Oh yea, NCSoft is doing so well on the coattails of GW2. It has just lost over 50% of its value in the last year and a half.

And, how do you know those jobs are getting filled? How do you know that they didn’t let people go that we incompetent and need to fill their positions, thus netting no new jobs?

Thanks for pointless fact finding that means nothing.

It’s funny how when someone uses the same kind of bad logic to point to the game failing, they are wearing a tin foil hat. But, when a fanboy uses bad logic to point to the game doing well – it must be true.

The same company that projected GW2 to hit 3 million sales, is the same company that predicted that GW2 was going to have an expansion by Q3 of this year. It was also the same company that recently said that hardcore games are the way of the future in their most recent NCSoft company review.

I have looked at the financial statements, and they aren’t that telling. You can’t base the success of a game after good intial sales when the majority of those sales rode on the coattails of the success of its previous game Furthermore, you can’t even say the game is successful unless you think that 3 million is all that the developers looked to sell. From what everyone keeps telling me, this game is intended to do much better than GW1 did. So, until it reaches 6-7 million in sales, it can’t even hold a candle to its predecessor which it is supposed to blow away.

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

Mackdose.6504:

clay.7849:

^^

Nappyychappy hit the nail on the head, IMO.

The definition of “casual player” doesn’t lend itself to the kind of dedication and “stickiness” you need to make a game like an MMO live for a long time.

Except when you’re a casual MMO player, then it doesn’t matter what your contrived definition of “casual” is.

You don’t to be a hardcore gamer (read: lots of free time) to stick with an MMO.

Casual doesn’t mean “unskilled” or “idiot.” It just means you don’t have lots of free time.

I don’t think it means unskilled or idiot. I think it means not dedicated or devoted. In fact, that is what it means. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/casual

Casual players won’t show the kind of dedication or devotion to a game by the nature of the definition of casual. That has nothing to do with unskilled or idiot.

Please tell me again how my contrived definition of casual is not like the actual definition of casual?

You can’t use a dictionary definition to apply to a specific usage of the term. Casual vs. hard-core players does NOT use the standard industry definition of the term casual. In fact, you can’t really use a dictionary for any specialized term for any industry.

Mob is a perfect example. By dictionary definition a mob is a group of people, as in a lynch mob. It’s not a single individual, but in gaming parlance you can have a single mob. So what the dictionary says about casual is all but useless in this conversation. It’s one of the things editors learn early in their studies. You can’t look up everything in a dictionary because context matters.

A casual player in an MMO can have multiple definitions but it’s usually used to counter-point the word hard-core. In on one’s imagination can I be considered a hard-core player, but would you call me casual about the game? I wouldn’t. But to most people I’m a casual player. I’m not hard-core, I don’t compete. It’s just a different usage of the word.

Ah, yes, you tell me that my definition is wrong, yet fail to provide anything that proves that my definition is wrong. Instead you opt to use really poor analogies.

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

^^

Nappyychappy hit the nail on the head, IMO.

The definition of “casual player” doesn’t lend itself to the kind of dedication and “stickiness” you need to make a game like an MMO live for a long time.

Based on what evidence. It’s funny because I could actually make an argument for the opposite. I’m old enough where I don’t really want to bounce back and forth between multiple games. I’d rather go further in a single game.

The older you are, the less you tend to “bounce around”. That’s a young person’s game. It’s an attention span thing too.

The younger generation grew up with youtube and the internet, but the older generation really hasn’t. It’s the younger generation that tends to game hop. I’m quite happy to buy one game and stick with it, because I don’t want to keep going out and buying more games. And this would be even more true of people who have less time to play. They’d play a game, get a tiny tiny bit done weekly and not run out of content. It’s not the older, more mature people who run out of content, I’m guessing. It’s the content locusts. The people who tend to be younger, and not have a family.

We have a wide range of people in my guild, from 17 up until people in their sixities. The people who are older don’t play MUCH fewer games and stay with the longer on the whole than the people in their teens and early twenties. So if the average age of a gamer now is over 30 (which apparently it is according to studies), there’s less reason for many of these people to run out and continually buy new games.

There’ll be exceptions of course, but I think older people will stay with something they like longer, on the whole and they’ll have a longer attention span.

Oh yea, there are so many “older” people playing video games. Keep in mind I’m in my thirties, so when you talk about the people that didn’t grow up with the internet, it is over the age of 40.

Everyone I know that is 50 and over think video games are for little kids.

So, if you think that your generation is some great target for video games, especially something as complex as MMO’s, compared to say, Wii bowling, then go ahead and think that is some untapped gold mine. I’ll be over here laughing.

But, the only thing you keep saying is that my opinion is wrong and your opinion is right. Guess what, they are both opinions. You don’t like mine, and I don’t like yours. Neither is right or wrong until we find out. Which, by the way, I would think the population of this game after Xmas 2013 is a good indicator of how well this game is doing, but again, that is just my opinion.

Vayne.8563:

Nappychappy.7046:

Of course the game is doing well, Guild Wars 2 is the most seriously taken niche AAA mmorpg for the super casual, ever. This game is beautiful, has a simple UI and even more simple combat system.

As for why they are hiring, well, from what little I know about the company, I read somewhere that it is very small. What I do know is that ArenaNet is behind schedule on things they said would be in game shortly after release. Almost none of that is even being talked about all the while tiny bits of content is being released. In order to make ends meet in the game with new content and old they most likely need to expand the pay-roll.

My honest opinion is that casual is popular now, but slowly dying out. It is most definitely a way to make money quickly, but not a way to make a game last. Game developers will eventually exhaust the consumers with must have AAA games of the month. As amazing as this game is, it also takes a huge step backwards, and the more casuals that it caters to, the more advanced players it will eventually disappoint.

This game is very young, if it wasn’t doing well, we are all in trouble.

Casual dying out? What evidence do you have of this claim? Casual, if anything, is growing. Because the average age of the gamer is growing. People have families, jobs, responsibilities. They are more casual because there are more demands on their lives.

If anything I’d say the casual explosion will last for many many long years.

Based on what? Just like you don’t like my opinion, your opinion is just as right or wrong.

Hawkian.6580:

snip

Any chance you can reply without the whole quote wars thing?

1. So, just because something appeals to me, that means I will buy it? Not true. And, just like you say one who bought it will prove it, does that mean one that doesn’t buy it will disprove it? C’mon man.

2. So, if there are millions of other casual players that might be interested in this game, as you say, why haven’t they (see #1) bought it yet? Hmmm….

3. Why do you think that this game, which is pretty much like any other MMO, is going to do so well?

Second, you’re rationalization is that GW2 sold quicker in 2012 than WoW did 10 years ago. Bravo, you’re a genius. SWTOR sold really well too. Now, they are dead. You don’t prove anything.

How does a game’s value increase over time if there is no one to play the game with? If the game doesn’t appeal to hardcore players and casual players, be definition, don’t have any real dedication to the game, how is this game going to keep increasing in population? Why would people keep buying a dead game?

4. So people that stop playing the game aren’t really quitters because they could come back at any minute? C’mon man!

You seem to think that this game is somehow magically different than everything else because it is F2P. It’s not. It is still susceptible to dying just like any other game. Subscriptions have nothing to do with it. If the population stops turning on the game, that’s it. Finished. Done. Dead. How hard is that to understand?

5. You did say that, because you argued against my saying that sales will continue to decline. If you think that isn’t the case, then you must think that 2012 will outsell 2013. I mean kitten, you keep arguing against it. Either it declines 2012 sales < 2013, or it doesn’t. Make up your mind and stick to it. The flip flopping is out of control with you.

6. So subscribers that may or may not continue to visit reddit, and some YouTube videos constitute this super devoted community? Please, tell me more about your absurd conjecture that is based in meaningless dribble?

7. Do you really not see that because server population is based on accounts and not people active that it is impossible to know how well this game is doing? I mean, what if the number of accounts needed to push servers from high to very high was only a few. What if it was outpaced severely by people that gave up and quit? I suppose that you think this game doing well is that people keep buying the game rather than people playing it. Well, I think it is about people playing it – and we can’t simply gather that information from the information on the server pages.

I take back the smart thing. Some of the things you are trying to argue are just plain ridiculous. Your arguments are basically the following:

The game is going to continue to do well because it will continue to sell and because it is F2P then it will never die. By the way, I base this all on the fact that I like the game, there are some really awesome YouTube videos that people put up. C’mon man. Every post you make is getting more ridiculous.

How about you just get back to my point: casual players, by definition, are not devoted to any particular game, because that is the definition of a casual player. (At least one of many that are all equally viable definitions, mine just happens to have roots in the actual definition of the word casual.) And, by the fact that casual players aren’t devoted to any one game, they will have no problem moving from game to game. So, because GW2 appeals to casual players more than other players, it is logical to assume that the longevity of the game can be effected by casual players moving on to other games or growing tired of GW2 and easily being able to stop playing.

All your arguments about money and revenue and blah blah blah all don’t matter, because when the game dies, the game dies. It doesn’t matter how many people bought it.

Do it well or don’t do it at all…

…sPvP

/facepalm

lothefallen.7081:

Sad thing is that most people knock it because they are used to more traditional MMOs and complain over paltry things like UI and jumping, really ridiculous in my opinion.

I played GW1 for 6 years simply because of the combat depth and PvPing with friends. GW2 may have a bigger scope, but GW2 is extremely shallow and many gameplay systems (classes, skills, etc.) are homogenized and hyper balanced. They threw out a lot of things that were amazing in GW1 to appeal to casual, WoW players.

GW1 offered a lot more in its’ prime than GW2 ever has, but it wasnt in the form of material rewards. Most people i see only play GW2 for the rewards whereas GW1 really felt like a real community because the game was inherently fun, rewarding, and deep to play.

The only thing i can say about those thinking about trying GW1 out, well, the majority of the game’s population has migrated (and many subsequently left because the game is so shallow, restrictive, and grindy) to GW2. A lot of things that made GW1 feel alive when i played it would now feel dead to new players. All i can say is that GW1 was a magical experience and it’s really a shame that people that never played it will never get to experience what i experienced. It’s a shame they casualized and homogenized GW2 so much, it’s like a slap in the face to GW1 fans.

Almost no build variety, extremely limited and shallow skill system, complete lack of effective healer role, homogenized class roles to the point that there is very little distinction and combat purpose, absolutely whack trait system that limits the viability of builds to 1-3 viable sets per class…the trait system is just really bad. They’d be better off overhauling it or just taking it out in favor of actual skills and a fully customizable bar. Elite skills are garbage, most fights are just braindead zergs with no required strategy or team composition, really just a sad bore.

Not many sensible people that actually enjoyed GW1 for the amazing game it was (not turned away by petty things like no jump and wahhhh it’s not like WoW) prefer GW2. In fact, 43 of my longtime GW1 friends say they really only play for the rewards and grind rather than the inherent depth and enjoyment of the gameplay. The other 26 have quit the game with no intention of coming back.

Just wanted to say, don’t look down on GW1 if you are just getting into it. If you give it the chance, youll actually find that in a lot of meaningful ways, it totally destroys GW2. The problem is, the community is just gone.

This is exactly the reasons to play and not to play GW1. If you ever want help in a mission, I am a particularly good monk, I’ll be happy to help lend a hand.

Casual – Someone who do is not devoted to a game; and therefore, typically does not take the time to delve into harder or more complex modes of said game.

Hardcore – Someone who is devoted to a game, in particular, to doing difficult or more complex content.

Time available to play does not figure in to any of my definitions.

Geotherma.2395:

clay.7849:

Xia.3485:

Geotherma.2395:

I can agree with the thought of games such as FFXI in mind. This is a game I used to love, it got a bit old however (for me) and I moved on. However it still holds many subs and just released yet another expansion. (8? 11?) Free to play games like Aion also hold both players who play often or don’t play often, both of which flood the cash store for “fun” things. However that game also offers advantages which by most peoples definition would be for hardcore gamers. But casual gamers use them as well. And that game is still around as well.

With Guild Wars 2 you buy and get what you pay for. You can at any time try other MMO’s, be 100% loyal to this, or leave and come back any time. Any type of player can put money into the pockets of the company. It matters more how cash shop items are sold, what is available, and the want and desire for them. And that applies to no single group. That applies to us all. I would simply say look at the fused weapon skins, to say only casual or hardcore players bought those chests based on their gameplay/style would just be silly.

Totally agree. In fact, you helped make my point. Also I’d like to point out it wasn’t I who brought the term hardcore or casual into conversation.

I think the best virtue of guild wars 2 is the ability to leave for a few months and return without having to grind to “catch up” to other players. The lack of effective gear treadmill is liberating. Even though some can argue that ascended gear began a treadmill none of the content appears balanced around gear (except for agony resistance, which is acquired where its used anyway).

I believe that if Arena Net wasn’t doing well financially, we’d see more gear and skins in the cash shop with talk of an expansion. Instead we are greeted with free content (the living story) and fun holiday events (Halloween, Christina and now this April Fools day game).

I don’t believe GW2 needs any of this:

… most hardcore gamers find this game to not include enough of what they want (gear treadmill, mounts, open world PvP, raids, etc.) Therefore, as more games become available that fill their desired niche they will leave.

Nor does it need the term hardcore pasted all over its forums.

Why did you edit my post to exclude “no gear treadmill?”

You are mis-representing my post. I don’t think that GW2 needs those things either, but GW2 doesn’t think that. They have said specifically that they don’t intent Ascended Gear to be the end of the gear treadmill. They said that they don’t intent level 80 to be the max level forever.

The purpose of the post was to show that ANet tries to give a little to everyone on both sides of the aisle, which doesn’t really appease anyone as most people are firmly on one side or the other. Ascended gear pretty much kitten off everyone.

Thanks for taking the time to not only purposefully exclude parts from my post, but to misrepresent it as well.

I disagree with this part bolded. There is really no proof of this, and people are generally believed to be open to change and change in behavior or moods. Which means anyone at any time can sway to either side. If anything I would say more people are swaying in the middle slightly to either side depending on the games content and theme. But thats an opinion, just like the above stated is. And as is true with that statement and mine, neither can be proven at this point.

You may be right, but looking around the forums, it seems that if you ask about gear treadmill you will get some pretty opinionated responses. Same with open world PvP, mounts, raiding, etc.

I agree people can change their minds, but it looks like our friend Xia is firmly opposed to some of those things. I wonder if he can change his mind?