Guild Wars 2

I can replicate Vevina, come into PvP!

Berner.7289:

hybrid.5027:

Player ability is more important than player build; but there comes a point where a build will cap a players potential.

And finally the light bulb goes on. Full glass cannon builds are highly susceptible to hard cc and stacked conditions — something rarely seen in boss encounters, but often faced in trash runs. Strengths and weaknesses. Pros and cons.

hybrid.5027:

So before you try to belittle DnT members for failing something on stream, I’d like you to reflect on yourself and think: “Do I play perfectly every run?”

I merely pointed out that a certain build (glass cannon) has a fundamental weakness, even if played by a talented player. Choosing a build that has a weakness doesn’t make someone a poor player, because it’s innate to the game. I wouldn’t call someone a “bad” or belittle anyone for that. No one should. And that’s my point, in a nutshell.

I would avoid looking at it in terms of “pro’s and con’s”, but instead “What is the opportunity cost of building like this”.

The opportunity cost of going full glass cannon is survivability. A loss of suvivability can be countered by strong player skill, and smart use of team damage mitigation tools such as Aegis and reflects. In this scenario, our opportunity cost is minimal, as it can be compensated for by good individual and team play.

The opportunity cost of spec’ing heavily into defense, is damage. Damage cannot be compensated for. Once you have lost damage from a team build, it is gone for good. So your opportunity cost in this scenario is proportionately larger than going full berserker, as it is harder to compensate.

Obviously I’m assuming that in both situations, your parties have access to the same utilities and buffs (banners/might/vuln). What we’re comparing is a build that chooses to sacrifice damage for defense, and a build that sacrifices defense for damage. What we find is that if the player running the build is able, the opportunity cost for going full glass cannon is minor to non-existent, relative to a player running main tank (see: paladin 2.5).

The biggest factor of any comparison is player skill, I think everyone agrees to that. However; it seems illogical to me to assume that as a rule, the average player is capped to playing at a low level. There will be exceptions, but I can’t believe that it is the standard. Players end up capping their own ability due to self-imposed views of themselves, whether that is “this is too hard” or “I’m good enough to complete this, I don’t need to improve anymore”. Builds however, are a mathematical cap in potential.

Also, for the record. People calling others ‘bads’ (strictly ‘bads’, not bad) is one of my pet hates. Even then, I tend to only call people bad when I run out of patience and need to vent.

Berner.7289:

But your livestreams shows a very different story because you can’t edit out all the failed trash runs.

Is the goal “speed” records, or consistently successful dungeon runs? I think a lot of people would say the latter.

The goal is consistently fast dungeon runs, which is achieved. It also depends what trash runs you’re talking about; if it’s ones such as from Arah P2, builds are pretty much unrelated to the success or fail of those.

Player ability is more important than player build; but there comes a point where a build will cap a players potential.

As for on stream, mistakes happen, people mess up. This is all apart of being human, and no one can be mad at you for messing up once in a while, this applies to everyone, not just DnT members.

The difference is that DnT members are at least trying to perform their best, by using optimized builds and learning efficient tactics. Their failures hopefully result in learning, and from there they become better players. You can’t become a good player without learning from your mistakes, and build choice is one of them. You can run a bad build for so long, but one day you will need to realize the reality of your build choice, if you wish to continue improving, or simply just to not handicap yourself.

So before you try to belittle DnT members for failing something on stream, I’d like you to reflect on yourself and think: “Do I play perfectly every run?”

I’ve had the pleasure of playing with and learning from some of the best players the game currently hosts; and I can tell you that I’ve seen each and every one of them fail a trash run, or get hit with an attack they shouldn’t have. The difference? That’s the exception, not the expected.

See you in 2 weeks, Broadicea. RIP in peace.

durend.6237:

hybrid.5027:

Chopps.5047:

Why not use offhand training for a larger reflect bubble?

You have to.

All three videos you can see Call of the Wild on a 28 second CD over the normal 35. They all had the trait.

I know, I was in the video o.O

Chopps.5047:

DEKeyzToChaos.7381:

Essence Snow.3194:

Nicely done!

Interested to know if all needed to time and use axe 5 for reflect to work properly or only a few were needed?

Damage-wise, more than 2 rangers reflecting is definitely diminishing returns. There were times that only 1 – 2 rangers used axe 5 and managed to take Lupi from about 65% to 20% health because each ranger got around 10 – 15 reflects. For the sake of living through the AoE, all rangers used axe 5 and probably got in the neighborhood of 5-10 reflects each. It is possible to stand in another ranger’s_ hitbox and survive, but less reliable (and even using axe 5 doesn’t guarantee survival).

Why not use offhand training for a larger reflect bubble?

You have to.

Syn Sity.5826:

I might be missing something obvious but why no knockback on the kick from brazil’s pov?

Trait; transfers CC to pet. Adept wilderness survival.

I did a legitimate ~20 minute duo p2, and I died running to belka

How long does it take you to 5 man it o.O?

…and then people remember that the heal has a 30 second cooldown, while illusionary counter is on a 10 second cooldown.

guanlongwucaii.3162:

yeah trash skipping with a mesmer is so annoying and not fun at all. it’s like rp walking all the time.

And then you realize that you can use a warriors banner to run with, and your life is changed forever.

CMstorm.8679:

Pibriamal.8719:

You do realize that ANet stated that they want Warrior sustain to be regen based right?

Anyway, I’ll bite. Duel me. You can go whatever class you want. I won’t even impose any restrictions on you. Whisper me whenever you find me online,, we can set up a time.

im all for warriors being sustain and all that, but I’m just saying that after everyone complaining about how OP healing signet is and how OP warriors are, i’d like to see a 1v1 where a warrior gets by with healing surge.

And i’d love to duel, but I probably won’t be on for a while

Doesn’t this seem wrong to you? That it’s at a point that warriors quite probably rely on healing signet to be competitive? Nerf healing signet, and what do we have? We have pre-healing signet warriors; which were the laughing stock of sPvP for an entire year.

Other skills need to be looked at; not healing signet. Perhaps cleansing ire, or simply just weapon cooldowns.

I was pretty happy with my clerics chest. Has nice colours ;D

Maybe, if I’m not sleeping

I’m being punished again

Crying about path selling is so 2012.

You’re probably playing with people who don’t know how to pull Tazza properly. As for the golems, you should kill all 3 at once anyway.

that engi build sucks

Nice work Sandy

Dub, really?

I got banned again for questioning Zelyhns french heritage

You can reflect her auto attack. Also, if you’re running compounding power (you probably should be), remember to put illusions up anyway, even though they don’t do damage to her.

You need like quad mantras, and some lucky crits :P

Guardian can heal while still being useful. A Warrior is pretty much useless when traited to shout heal.

The higher the fractal level, the more damage you need. Don’t listen to people who tell you not to use zerk in high level fractals; it is still the optimum.

Also, please just make two builds. Keep your WvW build in WvW, and keep your PvE build in PvE.

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

hybrid.5027:

If you can think of other rules that should/would be needed, feel free to let me know

Ban all non-nourishment consumables
All bosses must be fought in a way that does not glitch them or prevent the party from being invulnerable to their attack
No using a Mimic’ed (or otherwise) agony attack
No gem store strength or armor boosters

Do you want this for all records, or just the ‘other’ records?

As far as those rules go for dungeon records, the only one that I’d be happy to add is the no boosters one. The rest come under tactics, as far as I’m concerned. For fractal stuff, I’m kind of indecisive about the agony mimic trick. On the one hand, it’s a clever use of skill/game mechanics. On the other hand, it would almost definitely result in every fractal record ever, including that trick.

I’m not against resetting for the leaderboard(s) in the case of ‘game changing’ updates, though. For example if there were Fractal records submitted involving the mimic trick, and then the mimic trick were to be fixed.

@Dub; you’re free to make and maintain your own leaderboard with your own rules, if you want. These are the rules that I have decided are the easiest for players to follow, and the easiest for us to moderate. Pretty much the only dungeon that is effected by this rule is Arah P1; and I’m not going to tailor the rules to one dungeon path.

laharl.8435:

You should put in a section for boss kills.

I plan on doing that in the near future. Working on a table that is easy for me to keep updated, similar to the one for dungeons. Hope to have it done soon.

My idea was to probably label it ‘Other records’. This includes pretty much anything you want to have a record of: Boss kills, Fractal level clears/full clears, heart completions (lol). Anything you want to be the record holder of, you can be.

As for rules for boss kills, I planned on going with something simple such as:

-The timer starts as soon as damage is dealt to the boss, or a condition is inflicted.
-The timer ends when the boss is dead.

If you can think of other rules that should/would be needed, feel free to let me know

Give an example of a goal that can be worked towards before the first event has been triggered in a dungeon. The first dialogue/event trigger for any dungeon is consistent for all dungeons, and is an easier standard to not only ‘enforce’ but to play by. This is the standard we shall be using.

As for pre-stacking/pathing mobs in Arah, I came to the conclusion that it is not game changing, and thus is within acceptable limits.

Yes, I am playing the dictator.

btw, I fixed the thread I wanted to link. These forums really hate ampersands.

The Rules
The Leaderboard

Leaderboard has been purged of screenshot records, all videos submitted have been double checked to make sure the submitted times are accurate.

These are what I have set the rules as

I’ll be purging the leaderboard of a lot of records, make sure you check them out and let me know of any mistakes. If you feel like your record should be on there, make sure it’s both submitted on the forum and that I’m aware of it.

PM me on these forums or gwscr if you have any complaints/questions.

15/15/0/20/20 will work really well until like 70+ fractals (so im told). These traits are more for hammer/GS.

10/30/0/5/25 will allow you to keep all the utility TRAIT you want and output really good damage. Best ran with Sword/focus+GS.

Other than that, you can do what you want really. But these 2 trait setups are probably the most common. I wouldn’t recommend 0/0/30/30/10, especially not for higher level fractals, where your damage output starts to become more important.

And then the obvious for last, Berserker gear (Assassins if you want to be a hipster, I guess).

I’m much more inclined to go with the ‘from first event/dialogue’ due to the simplicity of it, as Nike pointed out. Is there something that you actually ‘dislike’ about it?

@Menno, the main reason is for consistency. It’s nice to have rules and guidelines set for all guilds to do their records by, instead of “we timed between x point and y point, you guys do the same”. If we set a start and end ‘rule’, then we have a standard that people are expected to meet for each of their records.

Though, back to the topic of the end timer:

When last boss dies, or when golden chest appears? Please give an argument for why you prefer x over y.

99% of lupicus solos to date confirmed for exploits. Obal has the only 100% legit solo with his scepter guardian!

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

I think of coe p1 and how awful it would be to have the record done by a few seconds, but then lose it because you spent 15 seconds scrambling to kill all the little Alpha Essences scattered around the room. Would kill me.

Also the daily bonus chest is good since it usually pops up before the end cut scene, but my issue with that is if that isn’t your first run of the day…

This was the other reason I wanted to keep the record at “Starts from first event/cutscene”

I wanted to keep the rules quite close to what they currently (sort of) had been, as to keep it ‘fair’ to the guilds who have their records submitted currently. As it is now, we can almost take every single video submitted and alter the time a little to see what the time would be via the new rules.

If we go by Wethospus timing, the vast majority of records will have to be redone.
How do the people who have the records feel about that?

Brazil saw me do my #1 rabid solo! Though I think he was afk until I killed him

These are the changes I plan on making to the gwscr leaderboard when I wipe it some time this weekend.

-Your record must have a video for evidence/proof, one PoV is sufficient.
-The timer starts when the first dialogue/sequence of the dungeon has triggered. This means the first cutscene in CoE/Arah, the first door opening in CoF (I dont think that one has a cutscene), etc etc. The first time an event updates or a cutscene triggers, the timer starts.
-The timer stops when the final boss of the dungeon has been killed.
-If you’re happy to use an exploit on video, the exploit is acceptable. No hacks/3rd party program involvement. If it isn’t possible to do something without outside assistance, it is not allowed.

If there are any changes to these rules that people would like to see or discuss, feel free to piggy back off of this thread or send me a PM on the forums.

@Weth, the main problem I have with starting the timer when the dungeon is first opened is that we’re bringing in more uncontrollable variables, or rather ‘feeding’ said variables, such as loading time and having to sync enter.

And on topic of wiping records, I will leave all current records that have a video on there until a new record is submitted, within reason (see: 10 second time deviance). Obviously if they meet all of the updated rules, then the record will remain until genuinely beaten.

Fror.2163:

Use common sense per dungeon/path. You need to compare what’s comparable: two runs within a path, not runs accross dungeons. So decide per path/dungeon what’s the best and stick with it.

For instance, I consider AC starts when the big door opens, but I consider the start of TA’s paths at different moments: when you enter the poison path for up and fw, but after you speak to Caithe when you do the new path.

Common sense would state that the timer starts when the dungeon starts, but it’s more convenient to have the ‘lobby’ of the dungeon to prepare first before you start the run. i.e. gathering as five before you start to run, doing a final check of builds, making sure everyone has loaded properly etc.

(seriously? as ‘#five’ gets censored?)

I’m #1 best.

Amicable Pugs is 2nd best rabid warrior, I’d go with his service!

I guess ending the timer when the exp pops for the last boss works just as well, gets rid of a ‘cutscene skipping’ factor.

EDIT: Actually, I think having it when the golden chest appears is more consistent. Dungeons such as Arah P1 are technically completed a fair bit before you get the actual dungeon completion. Arah P4 also has some minor dialogue, and I’m not too sure about others.

tl;dr I think the golden chest appearing is probably better for consistency across dungeons.

When I remake the gwscr leaderboard, I had every intention to make the rule that the timer starts when the first NPC is interacted with. Timer ends the first frame that the golden chest with your reward appears.

This means that first dumb gate in CoE/CoF, ogden in Arah, the pre-path select interaction in SE, the guy before the graveling in AC, etc etc.

I think this is better than path selection, because some dungeons path selection is after a reasonable amount of content.

-Cookie btw, I got banned

Inevitable.8920:

No that’s what the gold bonus is for they kittened up the tokens and its really annoying for people who want armor

I’d recommend finding a good guild that you can do all 3 paths with, or 4 in the case of Arah.