Guild Wars 2

Is it overpowered? Or is every other elite in the game underpowered?

Now to be serious; it is a balance issue, but is it really an issue of something really being overpowered, or is it another case of a situation that seems to be cropping up quite frequently; without a direct baseline to balance around, nothing is holding back the power creep that is being introduced into the game.

So, usually the people calling for nerfs are completely right about what they are asking for to be nerfed. But the long term effect has to be taken into consideration as well. If that something is nerfed, but the change isn’t made into part of a baseline in which buffs and nerfs are made and power creep is allowed to happen, then it will get to a point where the power creep will get so bad that whatever gets buffed could potentially be balanced in a meta where the power creep has run amok.

So, first thing is first, establish a baseline. Is Spirit of Nature too strong (maybe Nature’s Vengeance is the cause of more issues than the skill itself), or are most other elite skills too weak?

Balance from there.

Sorry for the ramble.

For roaming, my initial change is going to go back to my Apothecary Set, and run a 0/0/30/30/10 set and go Axe/Dagger Sword/Torch with dual canines (my preference) and pick up Guard, Sun Spirit, and SotW, with Travelers Runes (I already run almost all my builds relying on just WS III for a stun breaker and haven’t encountered any issues so far).

So, Regen will tick for 257, and SotW will tick for 123, for a total of 380 healing per second, permanently, without ever using a heal. With Trolls Unguent active, that’s 978 + 380, for a grand total of 1358 healing per second, not factoring in the Elite Spirit, which is another 480 healing per second, for a total of 1838 healing per second with the Elite up.

That’s on top of doing the same damage current BM builds do, but factoring in even more burning up time for even more damage.

If Nature’s Voice isn’t needed, drop Guard and go 0/0/30/20/20 and pick up Vigorous Training to aid in the loss of 25% of our traited endurance, and now there is an open utility slot for personal preference.

Oh, and Nature’s Voice with Guard (dropping Storm Spirit from the 3 spirit setup and leaving Sun/Stone) on a Rabid/Carrion Spirit build is going to make that build so much harder to beat 1v1.

Cufufalating.8479:

Napalm.5693:

How about this for a kinda tough/healing build?

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fMAQNAV8YjAVZ2VWCWoWCiVBB1ekp+jJWBD5UMK/D-jECBoOCy0CQUFBOTqIas1NFRjVPjIqWfEzYuIa1CBsYNA-w

Since you arent using rabid and have very low crit chance, getting Skirmishing II and using Earth Sigils is a bit of a waste. You’d be better off moving those 10 trait points to BM or NM and using Geomancy Sigils instead.

Also as Joe said, for a regen build you really do want to have SoW in there.. I’d probably lose Sharpenning Stone for it, but you could swap it for any of your utilities really.

Also one last thing, you dont really need Oakheart Salve if you are running Dwayna Runes because you’ll have enough regen already. Offhand Training, Hide in Plain Sight or Wilderness Knowledge would probably be more useful to you.

*jcbroe, not Joe haha. Sorry, I just get called Joe enough already in real life cuz people see the “J” and the “oe” and make that association (Jacob Roe is the name).

It’s cool though lol. Just a lighthearted thing.

I second everything being said for advice.

@Durz;

I totally understand lol. I’m just trying to make the point that it’s unfair to assume that a longbow is rangers iconic weapon. Bows in general, yes. But what about a recurve bow, or the shortbow, or a hornbow? Since Guild Wars 2 has guns in it, it wouldn’t be out of reach to say a even a crossbow.

Most people do picture a ranger with a bow in their hands, but I would say that it’s very limiting to assume that it has to be a longbow. I’d be willing to bet more than anything that actually, those players picture a ranger with access to multiple bows, because since they are a ranger, they picture themselves as being the most proficient ranged class with a bow, and therefore deserving of the most versatile kitten nal of bows available.

@Star Ace;

I agree while I also disagree. In an ideal world, yes, nobody should be kicked from any group ever for however they play or however they are assumed that they are going to play based on a visible setup headed into content.

But at the same time, since it is not an ideal world, we have content that forces players to play a certain way in order to achieve a certain outcome that isn’t always possible with every playstyle and setup they have access to. Players creating groups now have to decide what their goal for playing is, and create a group accordingly, and invitees unwilling to adapt in order to meet that goal are going to get kicked if others don’t feel they fall within those requirements.

Is that fair? Absolutely not. But instanced content does tend to invite the most elitist players in a community, regardless of what game it is. And it in no way justifies the stigma that is immediately attached to ranger players by a very decent portion of the community. I’d say there are probably more terrible warrior and guardian players out there who role “heavy armor damage tank” and then die on the front lines over and over again because they think this is every other MMO than there are rangers.

Just like Indoles made mention at though, for whatever poor balance reason, if you take equally bad players and put one on a ranger and one on a warrior, a warrior is still more of an asset than the ranger because they can faceroll smash their autoattack more effectively.

@Durz;

That’s exactly my point though lol. Two rangers who put in decent time into a game and with combined experience, shared playstyles in almost every way except which bow is getting used.

What I’m indirectly suggesting is that the test be repeated with the Shortbow and see if rangers are truly getting kicked for playing a “ranger” (bow using) playstyle, or if that it shows that a group is actually kicking players because those groups actually understand how poor of a choice the longbow in itself is for group play.

Because I can concede that a bow is what most people think when they think ranger. But not longbow haha.

Star Ace.5207:

Indoles.1467:

Why spend an hour doing something that can be done in 20 minutes? I don’t know about you guys, but I stay busy enough so that when I play Guild Wars 2, I want to get the most content done as quickly as possible.

I bet you all the money you want that no “bearbow” will transform a group’s experience from 20 to 60 minutes, unless he/she is intentionally trolling the group. It would more likely be everyone else’s fault at that point, not the Ranger’s alone.

And lastly, while EVERYBODY’s real-life time is limited, that’s no reason to assume that speedrunning GW2 is the playstyle everybody should adopt. Every other player’s “slower” approach to the game doesn’t mean they have “little” to do so they like to “waste” time-they are just enjoying the game differently than you do (in short, people can be different than you, and that’s fine.)

Segueing, just like the OP is assuming that the longbow is considered the iconic weapon of the ranger, when in reality the vocal community seems almost literally split between a pure archer/aragorn viewpoint, beyond that many don’t specify what bow type a ranger should be using, even if they envision bows.

It would be like saying that mesmer, being a caster, has the iconic weapon of the staff or scepter, and that because those are the iconic weapons, they should be the ones that do the most damage, when in reality that just isn’t the case.

There are no primary or secondary weapons in this game. There are just weapons. Also, there isn’t a single recognizable “classic,” or classically/traditionally styled class in the game. Every single class has their perceived “quirks” and subtle nuances that overall make this game different from others.

That being said, I recognize the point being made by the OP. But the truth is that a group saying “no bearbows” and kicking a person for a using a longbow is just as bad as assuming that ranger needs to proficient with the longbow because it is the “iconic” weapon (I played guild wars 1 for a decade as a ranger in every single aspect of the games content and never once used a longbow. Recurve Bows, Shortbows, Scythes, Daggers, Hammers, and Staffs, but never a longbow).

Update;

Okay, so the two builds I have are:

Dire/Rabid: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fMAQNAV8fjAV11xVWWo2Bi2jMZeMxeYIH9IXB/D-jkyAoOBZaBMVJQ5Ql1MpgYxsIas6GMVqQqiNy+gioVDA-w

Apothecary/Rabid: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fMAQNAV8fjAV11xVKWo2Bi2jMZeMxeYIH9IXB/D-jUCBIOCy0CwUFBKPqIaslhFRjVLTQWfETlKpeFJFA-w

Ultimately I feel like they are performing exactly the same, except that the first has access to one more stun breaker.

Either or I guess. I’m hard pressed to find a difference in performance myself.

Well, you have a base of 62 hp per second, and I always aim for 100 hp a second, which requires about 615-620 healing power.

I just broke down and bought the dire/rabid setup that I posted, and the problem that I’m having is that while I do sponge damage, I don’t really have anything to sustain my health pool. I can definitely take a lot of damage, but I don’t feel like I can recover from the damage as well with a healing build.

That is also because of the higher amount of health though. In reality, the survivability of the builds really don’t seem all that different. I just don’t feel like I’m retaining the same percentage of health I normally do when I’m fighting, which makes me think one is better than the other.

I’d have to figure out which one has the better EHP.

@ Napalm.5693;

I find them to be just a tad more forgiving than not having the healing. With the amount of evasiveness Rangers have and the ability for most of our builds to play “footsie” with soft CC (chills, cripples) and just kite people, it can make wearing a ranger down that much more difficult.

That being said, I don’t see how Dire is any worse of a choice, as they basically both accomplish the same thing through different means, increasing the amount of hits you’re capable of taking, and I’d also argue that a healing build requires Signet of the Wild to be as effective as possible, where as with Dire gear, you are more open in that 3rd utility option.

So honestly it’s either way. I just have a preference for healing builds because I already have the gear and I know I’m effective with it. I’m hesitant on dishing out the money for Dire gear in case it just doesn’t work for me, but if I did go with Dire, I’d go with a Dire/Rabid mix and optimize for defense over offense.

Something like this; no traps: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fMAQRAnY8fjAVN2VW+VoWCiVBB1ekJzjJmCDlIXB/D-jUCBINhG1JQ5QKrZSCilhFRjVJLyKlYqUAKWJFA-w

Non-Ascended: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fMAQRAnY8fjAVN2VW+VoWCiVBB1ekJzjJmCDlIXB/D-jUCBINhG1JQ5QKrZSCilhFRjV3ATlCQxaR1OEFRrGA-w

Or, the trap version: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fMAQNAV8fjAV11xVuVo2Bi2jMZeMxeYIH9IXB/D-jECBoOCy5QKrZSCilhFRjV3ATlCQxaR1OEFRrGA-w

Napalm.5693:

What about gear to go with your condi/trap build? I am interested in traps now.. Do you think the build i have created is just a waste of time and i should trap it up? I assume you have at one stage had a similar build.

I wouldn’t say it is, I run a similar (albeit, healing power based) build to yours, and I can also run a more offensive trap build, and I’d say that they are just two different functions.

The build I used to run is this: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fMAQRAnY8fjAVV2BWKWo2Bi2jMZeMxPYIPjR5fA-jkyAIuBRTLAJBwknAlHLiGbdrIasaZBZNDmKNpeFlVA-w

Recently, I have switched things around and moved back to a more BM based build: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fMAQRAnY8fjAVV2BWKWo2Bi2jMZeMxPYIPjR5fA-jkyAIuBRTLAJBwknAlHLiGbdrIasaZBZNDmKNpeFlVA-w

And the trap version I run is this: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fMAQNAV8fjAV11xVKWo2Bi2jMZeMxeYIH9IXB/D-jUCBIOCykAwUFBKPqIaslhFRjVLTQWzATlKpeFKrA-w

Chokolata.1870:

In PvE u want frost and maybe stone spirit . So the trait swap is pretty irrelevant for PvE . For PvP or WvW however , the actives are half the value of the spirit especially the on death proc . So in essence , spirit builds will stay the same in function but nerfed in performance and some people will try to make a silly build that will be proven to be useless .

I’d actually say that isn’t entirely true.

A BM build (0/0/30/20/20) should be very usable. Just replace one of your stun breakers (I’m thinking a fairly typical LR/SoR/SotW and swapping out either LR or SoR) with Sun Spirit, and it will give BMs a lot better access to burning than they currently have, which will help the overall pressure of the build. Also, the AoE blind is always helpful.

Beyond that, as Eura mentioned, you can go with 0/0/30/30/10 and pick up Nature’s Voice over Nature’s Vengeance, and then run with Sun Spirit, Stone Spirit, and Guard and try to be the biggest boon to your team you possibly can while still outputting decent pressure. Or, my variant of that would be to be selfish and run with Apothecary’s/Settler’s and go with Sun Spirit, Guard, and SotW, and just be a near unkillable pressure machine.

Also, the current build will still be available with the same stat distribution and traits, so it isn’t like the build is getting removed. The only difference is that Storm Spirit will hit for a base of 2k instead of 3k, which is still a decent chunk of damage for potentially zero damage investment.

The biggest thing the loss of Nature’s Vengeance does to the Spirit build I would say is actually the loss of the additional active from the Elite Spirit. That extra cleanse and revive, even though semi RNG, is very valuable, and with the timer on the Spirit Elite, it could definitely see a change in effectiveness in that regard.

You aren’t wrong though; Nature’s Vengeance is extremely valuable for certain playstyles, and those builds won’t be sacrificing the trait. But the change is nice for people that maybe just wanted to pick up a Spirit for it’s passive without needing such a massive trait investment, and I’d argue that it is a first step in helping an issue that almost all ranger utilities have; needing a 30 point investment to be effective, when the effectiveness level only competes with other classes that don’t require such a hefty trait investment to get the same results.

I think for the traits, you’d be better off dropping 10 from Nature Magic and Strength of Spirit for 10 in Skirmishing and Sharpened Edges (or on Dec 10th, Mighty Swap).

Especially since you have very decent crit chance.

Entangle is AoE when it creates the vines, but the actual vines created are objects that require a target in order to continue to apply their effects.

When a thief stealths, the vines target drops, and because the vines need a target as mentioned, it allows the thief to escape.

Yes, it’s ridiculous.

GvG? What is this GvG?

See, I’ve played PvE, SPvP, TPvP, and WvW. I’ve run dungeons and participated in the living world, and I’ve even had my share of moments where the game was simply PvDoor.

But GvG isn’t in guild wars 2. That’s guild wars 1. What this game has is massive groups that spam AoE damage and buffs until opposing groups are dead, which is a far cry from GvG.

Point taken that Rangers lack some sort of group support that is desired in more organized groups, but using an argument that stems from an unofficial, player created game mode isn’t the best way to go about it, especially when that game mode can be so large that it lacks the individual breakdowns/face offs necessary in order to balance a game.

For instance, going back to Guild Wars 1, I could say my class is broken and needs to be buffed because I never win a Red Resign against a blue team. Therefore, all red players need a better buff, and my class particularly because every time my class is red, it’s impossible to win.

Same deal. When talking about an unofficial game mode, it means that players are basically playing the game in a way that the devs never had any real intention of the game being played, which means that they have absolutely no obligations to be balancing for it, because honestly, you could just be doing it wrong (to them).

Looks like either Apothecary/Settlers, probably mixed with some Carrion, and a trait setup of 10/0/30/10/20.

Could be wrong though.

I get what you’re saying that JP did acknowledge that things could be better and that they acknowledge that but that it would require resources and all at a later date, but the thing is, when is the right time?

Surely if they knew in beta that it was an issue, they would fix the issue before launch right?

If the devs truly thought that the main mechanic for a class isn’t working correctly, why isn’kitten major concern that is being worked on right now because of it? If the ranger population is truly as expansive as it shows, and the pets are acknowledged issues, then it is an issue that affects a large portion of the player base every single time they play the class.

Since it is too difficult too fix right now (and apparently isn’t even worth beginning to allocate resources towards), then the least that could be done is to make sure when introducing new content to the game that it is at least conducive to the current limitations of the mechanic.

But my point was, they couldn’t even do that with this last patch.

Acknowledging something is an issue is one thing, but it does not excuse being completely inconsiderate to the issue, especially when patching in new content with the same type of mechanics that a particular class already showed issues with in previous content releases.

@Mrbig;

I think that’s ultimately what I was thinking in my head, that overall, there are too many specs that do too many things, which seems like a result of tanky specs being able to do decent damage, or damage specs being able to be decently tanky.

I used to think the TTK in Guild Wars 1 could be fairly long (around 8-10s on my Warriors builds if I recall).

Being different games aside, I do miss actually being able to kill something before a match is over (for those trolls out there, obviously an exaggeration and not a L2P issue).

Aesthetics aside, what would the rifle do that isn’t accomplished already by either of the bows?

These threads always come up, and there are always arguments, and ultimately, the rifle side can always ever say “we want it” and the other side say “it isn’t needed” or “it doesn’t fit.”

If you want a rifle, come up with a unique purpose for the rifle that doesn’t just overwrite the current functions of our bows.

Maybe have it be more like a shotgun? (this is my hint to get the thread started in a more positive direction, before it devolves into the same old argument)

thefantasticg.3984:

You’d think the sheer amount of threads/posts related to giving us the option to opt out of using the pet would be an obivous flashing red light and siren. There’s been hundreds of suggestions not to get rid of pets completely but to make them optional. I still don’t understand the people who get offended by having the choice to use them or not. I guess those are the same people who want other people not to succeed in life if they aren’t. “If I’m having a bad day everybody else should to! It’s only fair!” Uh, no, Snowflake. The real world doesn’t work like that. We who love playing the Ranger but not the pet are quite a large portion of the Ranger player base (I say this referrencing the extremely large portion of posts/threads about making the pet optional since I’ve been on the forums). It’s a broken mechanic. If the lead game designer can admit that (which I never thought would happen) there is no reason not to believe they can put another band aid on it making the pet optional. As far as I see it this the best time to push for making pets optional and introducing Preparations or damage buff for stowing pet, for instance.

You would think that. But as we’ve seen with this “red light” syndrome, when almost an entire community is in agreement that there are either issues to iron out or tweaks to be made at least to make something more fluid (I’m referencing the MH sword), Devs can always come along a year later and say “look, actually, we like it and think it’s fine.”

I envision the same exact thing unfortunately. There is a fairly decent amount of people that want the pet mechanic reworked, another decent amount removed entirely, and even most of the people that love the mechanic would concede to allowing it to be optional as long is it doesn’t negatively affect their gameplay.

What’s probably going to happen? A dev will come along and say “actually, we like it, and we think it’s working fine.”

RyuDragnier.9476:

Solid Gold.9310:

“The Nightmare Within”.

More like “The Living Nightmare” for Rangers.

And more proof that content being added renders the pet utterly and totally useless.

…you guys run through the tower with your pets on aggressive? Set them on passive, stow them, and run with Signet of the Hunt. Don’t try to kill anything other than the group event bosses in you way, and get to the center so you can reach the next section. The entirety of surviving the tower is dependent on you playing smart and avoiding fights whenever possible. Basically, the equivalent of learning to survive in WvW and in Arah (where you have to dodge a LOT of mobs).

The ONLY time I even run with my pet on Guard is in PvP matches, and only when I’m strictly a home point holder (meaning really only for 1v1s).

Yes, there are ways to play that minimize the frustration of the content that the pet does not aptly perform in. But if it causes players to sacrifice playable content in the process, then it is inherently bad design, is it not?

The point is that you shouldn’t have to stow your pet and avoid as much combat as possible, only fighting the “worthwhile” (this is subjective, who decides what fights are worthwhile or not) fights.

If you are going to design a game and give a class a forced pet mechanic, don’t design content that then creates a malicious environment specifically towards pets that doesn’t otherwise hinder any other classes success.

Isn’t another fairly large chunk of the problem the amount of stat investment power builds require versus the amount of stat investment condition builds require?

Only having to rely on one or two stats for damage is a huge factor (condition damage/power or condition damage/precision) and allows the third stat to be a defensive stat. Power builds are basically forced into a zerker setup, only gaining the little bit of vitality from the amulet that it gives.

Condition builds shouldn’t be bursting conditions for damage that is so strong that it competes with zerker setups.

Whoever on the Living World team decided it was time for more mine fields that my pets blunder into and trigger with the new Tower content; thank you, just thank you.

I greatly appreciate the time you take to make the content enjoyable across all classes, and the eye for detail and mindfulness you take when you create content.

/sarcasm

Cufufalating.8479:

I like the SB but I would say that #2 and #4 could use buffing/changing.

The #3 is awesome and #5 (despite having a long CD for such a short stun) is a ranged interupt so who can complain with that.

The #2 is pretty poor though and #4 is OK but the cripple seems too short duration and it could use some extra effect (yes I know it makes pet attacks bleed, which isnt great).

It would be cool if the #2 attack fanned out but then curved back in on the target, so all the shots hit your main target. Maybe move the cripple to the #2 as well and then make a totally new #4… That would make me happy

I don’t know if this is what you meant exactly by your suggestion for shortbow 2, but it gave me this idea that I think would be really cool;

What if the shortbow 2 was changed so that it would fan out then oscillate back in and out? Like, imagine the middle arrow staying linear, and then the other 2 on either side fanning out, then curving back in to meet the middle arrow, and the back out, etc.

Rename the skill from poison volley to serpents shot, and if you wanna be really fancy, add a snake animation on the bow when the arrows are being shot out.

I think that’s immediately a more interesting skill. Then for my personal liking, up the base damage so that the 5 shots hit together for a total of 100 more base damage than the autoattack (right now the difference between the base attacks is 134 crossfire, 170 poison volley). I would be even happier if each individual arrow was given a base damage of 67 though (334 total, each arrow hits for half of what crossfires base is).

No ideas for shortbow 4. Just that it needs to be something more than “just another arrow skill.”

Actually, let me try to rework what I was trying to get at with the OP.

I hate that the shortbow is designed around the autoattack being the main source of damage.

I love the flanking mechanic and I would love the shortbow if the rest of the skills weren’t just utility skills.

What I’m saying I think the weapon is lacking is some sort of skill that gets added to the sustain you get from autoattacking to either do a few larger increments of damage or a rapid number of hits with a higher damage coefficient than just the autoattack.

For instance, the greatsword (with Moment of Clarity) has a nice rotation of using GS 5 into G2 2. The longbow (with Remorseless) has a nice rotation of using LB 3 into LB 4. The Mainhand Axe can rotate Axe 3 to chill and close distance and then Axe 2 to burst a bunch of bleeds onto a target.

And then we get to shortbow and sword, and their autoattacks are literally self sustaining in terms of DPS, which drastically reduces how “active” you feel like you are playing your character.

I’m not saying that they are terrible weapons, I’m asking that maybe give the shortbow the engineer pistol treatment (using pistol 2 on cooldown and its very nice DPS increase over the Autoattack) so that using shortbow 2 actually increases DPS. I don’t actually have a suggestion for the sword, the skills on the mainhand are actually very decent, it’s just a shame that it takes such a low amount of APM (actions per minute) that it makes you feel inactive as a player.

So, like suggested in the title, this is probably going to be a controversial thread but, I really hate the shortbow.

I don’t think it’s a bad weapon. I don’t think it’s a weak weapon. I think it’s a boring weapon, with poorly designed skill flow.

Individually, all of the skills are fairly decent, but when they are all on the same weapon, literally, the weapon is just an autoattacking weapon, which lacks the need for skill rotations, making all of the skills purely utility.

I hate it. It’s just very boring and very lacking in a game with lots of other weaponsets that have very interesting skill rotations to make the weapon fun.

I would argue the rangers mainhand sword suffers from the same issue as well. Autoattack for all of your damage, use your skills for utility.

Very very very boring and just overall poor weapon design.

Not saying the weapons aren’t effective, because they are very effective. And don’t get this confused with a nerf thread, this isn’t a nerf thread, this is a “please, make this weapon more interesting to use without nerfing it” thread.

Game type has a whole lot to do with it though. As mentioned, most bunker/bunkerish specs are fairly forgiving, but it wouldn’t make so much of a difference if the game type didn’t also reward players for just being able to stand on a point to keep people from getting it.

The game needs to be looked at from a more generalized “esports” perspective. We currently only have respawn game modes but there is a wide array of ways to build which can extremely alter the time to kill depending on how you’re built versus how the opponent is built. How do you manage to turn something like that competitive?

Make the objective a more fast paced objective, or an objective the requires more coordination (like bring guild wars 1 GvG to this game). Maybe introduce a respawn penalty.

My favorite suggestion so far is to have a game type similar to a rotating king of the hill that when captured only adds 1 point to the score tally (out of like, 10 let’s say) and then the hill moves immediately so it doesn’t reward players for just holding a player of the map. Then, introduce a death penalty so that dead players don’t respawn until the active point is captured by one of the teams.

You would still see bunkers, but as long as bunker specs have their agility adjusted, a team with agile roamers would be able to get to objectives and take them faster than a team of bunkers would be able to traverse across the map. The suggested death penalty also introduces something important for viewership; immediately understandable clutch plays. For a casual guild wars 2 viewer right now, it is really hard to watch a match and realize what big plays are without having some prior game knowledge, and even then, right now it is just bunkers slowly bunkering each other to death.

So in summation, yes, the bunker meta is terrible, but it is as much the fault of balance is it is the game mode.

@OGDeadHead;

Good point on Signet Master and Beastmasters Bond, I’ll make those changes.

For Swap of Opportunity, I was thinking mainly an ICD of 20 seconds. I figured being able to get an attack of Opportunity for both you and your pet every 15 seconds would be a little too strong, but any longer than the inherent 20 seconds and it becomes too weak for its own good. Also, the ICD is to prevent any out of combat bugs/abuses. It just nips it in the bud before it has a chance to be broken lol.

For Empathic Bond, the reason why I didn’t drop it down was because it could essentially overpower condition removal rangers. Rangers are already extremely evasive, and the build I think would be overpowered if I dropped Empathic to a Masters slot with my suggestion would be a 0/30/20/20/0 with my suggested Moment of Clarity, Empathic Bond, and Evasive Purity. A settler’s/apothecary build would be virtually unkillable with the right traits (would need vigor traits) and weapon sets. I can see how strong Wilderness Expert looks, but I think in the grand scheme of things, it looks pretty in line with traits like Elementalist’s Soothing Wave and Burning Fire, that take a list of related traits and give them an overall boost in effectiveness, without having to be specced into a grandmaster slot.

You can always convince me otherwise haha I just wanted to explain my reasoning first.

@Rym;

Totally agreed. I would have done a utility rework along side this but I haven’t thought through them enough as there are a wide range of things our utilities could be updated to do, and I would have had to consider them along side all of my trait suggestions, which would be a lot of time and effort for essentially just a suggestion thread.

That being said, my version of Protect Me would change to “for the next x seconds, your pet becomes passive and all incoming conditions are halved in duration and applied to both you and your pet.”

Having a complete condition immunity on top of all of my condition specific trait changes would be too much, but this would give rangers another utility option that doesn’t depend on traits to be able to deal with conditions if they still decided to go full glass traits with no condition removal.

Ideally, in taking my version of Protect Me on a defensive build, the other utility options would actually have to be so competitive for that build that it would actually be sacrificing something.

Offtopic;

I wonder how these sigils of blood would work on my rabid necro if I combine them with all of the healing on hit/crit traits in blood magic. Hmmmm. I wasn’t planning on logging in until next balance patch, but this thread may have just inspired me….

Bran.7425:

JonPeters.5630:

Summoned creature AI is a different can of worms that we aren’t opening for the same reason. Pets that delay F2 use isn’t some wait script we put into their skills it has to do with core AI behavior shared by all pets and creatures and how they decide tasks. Rewriting that has the risks of breaking millions of unknown things so we have up until now band aided the solution. It is something that needs addressing but won’t be addressed until we can kitten how and when we will test it.

I hate that quote so much, because my summarized version looks like “we understand that we implemented the pet poorly, but until now, we had more pressing things to attend to because fixing the pets are much too hard and we would rather aim for the lowest hanging fruit possible like changing the colors of Jellyfish. We won’t be testing any solutions for this until all other options for us have been expended, but in the meantime, we will do our best to continue to put band aid fixes on the problem as we can.”

It isn’t my video, and it isn’t the best quality, and it’s also fairly early into the guild wars 1 lifespan, but here’s a video I found of an bunny thumper. Looks to be one of the earlier versions of the build, probably before the guild wars 1 Rampage as One skill even existed.

This was the old build page from pvx: http://gwpvx.gamepedia.com/Thumper

Okay, so being on both sides of the games content, I’ve usually always stayed out of these ridiculous *SPvP versus WvW" argument because they are silly.

Fact is, both of them are completely different types of game modes that both require skill, albeit, different types of skill in certain scenarios. In WvW, you’re ability to 1v1 outside of roaming means nothing. It’s all about group play and coordination, and arguably more so than PvP because it is truthfully harder to coordinate 20 people than it is 5. It isn’t that individual skill isn’t valuable, because it is, but it has to be taken into consideration that the larger the group of opponents you face is, the less your ability to duel somebody matters, and the more your ability to support your team and accomplish certain tactics are.

But, that in no way devalues SPvP. Because of smaller numbers, you are much more likely to have to duel, or be focused down by a group of attacks. Simply put, you have to be skilled enough to be able to 1v1 anybody that isn’t a direct hard counter to your build, unless you are a point bunker guardian, who is more about point holding and team supporting than they are about killing things.

Isn’t it obvious that both take skill by now? They both have leaderboards after all. One shows which world is top tier, and one shows which players are top tier. Commonly, you’ll see top tier players in SPvP who are part of top tier guilds, like Super and VoTF.

But ultimately, it’s obvious that the idea that balancing only around SPvP came from the idea that balancing around 5v5 would just translate into 20v20 etc etc. Obviously it isn’t the case because nobody considered that “it takes x guardians to apply perma boons and x warriors to apply perma stuns” versus how little classes can already hard counter the plethora of boons and stuns that can be thrown around in small scale fights already, let alone humungous ones.

The problem is that the issue has been realized too late, and they can’t split every single skill in the entire game (like they had to with guild wars 1) at this point.

Also, neither WvW nor SPvP is “esports” or even being close to “esports” worthy. Esports needs to be able to spectate individual players to watch them make clutch plays over a fair objective that highlights that a winning team is more skilled than a losing team. WvW has too many players, has too much screen clutter, has too much going on in large scale fights, and doesn’t have a fun to watch objective, especially when people think GvG is just massive Team Deathmatch (go watch guild wars 1 gvg for an idea on what esports looks like).

At the same time, SPvP is boring. Conquest is a terrible competitive gametype that snowballs too easily, there’s still too much junk on a screen even in 5v5s, and overall the whole gametype is too rewarding to people who are just really good in standing in a circle. Not to mention the tactical value of having to go “gee, my team has this node. What now? Uhhh, move to next node” is next to zero.

Honestly, watch Search and Destroy in CoD (I’m using a very current game for this, I could say Counter Strike, or my personal favorite, Halo 2 CTF and King of the Hill). There is an easy to understand game flow, obvious big play moments, and lots of tactical value. It doesn’t take a genius to play, which means it doesn’t take a genius to understand, which appeals to a casual audience, and there isn’t so much passive crap going on that you can’t understand what proc’d what or how or why.

Somebody else can compare it to LoL, it’s a game I could care less about, the point is, it doesn’t matter from what perspective or what game mode; this game is a long ways away from being seriously competitive.

People always have to call each other out for no reason, just because they play different game modes than each other. Chill. It isn’t the game modes fault that the balance isn’t right, it’s the balances fault for not having a stern direction and just being a mishmash of a bunch of different concepts that never push balance far enough in a discernible direction to actually make an impact on how the game plays.

Skirmishing
First, we’re going to merge and remove some traits:

-Agility Training: Removed
-Carnivorous Appetite: Removed
-Moment of Clarity: Daze and Stun duration merged with Hunter’s Tactics, Attack of Opportunity effect moved to a place that will be described in the Beastmastery Section.

New Skirmishing Line:
Minors:
-Tail Wind: Gain Swiftness when swapping weapons (9 second ICD, no longer requires in combat)
-Furious Grip
-Hunter’s Tactics: Deal more damage when flanking. Daze and Stun durations you inflict last longer

Majors:
Adept:
-Pet’s Prowess
-Sharpened Edges
-Trappers Defense
-Primal Reflexes
-Trapper’s Efficacy: Traps do 100% more damage on crit
-Companions Might: Your crits grant might to your pet, and your pets crits grant you might.

Master:
-Battle Cry: When your pet reaches the health threshold, you do more damage. When your health reaches the this threshold, your pet does more damage. Not active when both you and your pet are at the threshold simultaneously.
-Trappers Expertise
-Honed Axes: Deal more critical damage when wielding an axe in your main hand. Bounces inflict bleeding.
-Symbiotic Bond: When you critical hit, your pet has a chance to gain health. When your pet critical hits, you have a chance to gain health. Effect has ICD

-Grandmaster_
-Trap Potency
-Moment of Clarity: Interrupting a target transfers all conditions from you and your pet to that target

Wilderness Survival:
First, we’re going to merge and remove some traits:

-Natural Vigor: swaps places with Peak Strength
-Martial Mastery: merged with Two-Handed Training

New Wilderness Survival Line:
Minors:
-Companion’s Defense
-Peak Strength
-Natural Vigor: 50% endurance regeneration

Majors:
Adept:
-Soften the Fall
-Healers Celerity
-Shared Anguish
-Vigorous Renewal
-Expertise Training
-Wilderness Knowledge

Master:
-Offhand Training
-Oakheart Salve
-Hide in Plain Sight
-Wilderness Expert: Lightning Reflexes removes all movement impairing conditions including immobilize, Muddy Terrain is now instant, Quickening Zephyr no longer reduces healing, Sharpening Stone now applies 2 bleeds per attack.

Grandmaster:
-Empathic Bond
-Bark Skin

Nature Magic:
First, we’re going to merge and remove some traits:

-Rejuvenation: swapped with Fortifying Bond

New Nature Magic Line:
Minor:
-Fortifying Bond
-Rejuvenation
-Bountiful Hunter

Major:
Adept:
-Circle of Life
-Concentration Training: Boons applied by your pets and to your pets last longer.
-Nature’s Bounty
-Vigorous Spirits
-Strength of Spirit
-Natures Protection

Master:
-Spirits Unbound
-Evasive Purity: Dodging removes 2 conditions. 15 second ICD
-Two Handed Training: Greatsword, sword, and spear damage is increased. Cooldowns are reduced by 20%
-Enlargement

Grandmaster:
-Nature’s Vengeance
-Nature’s Voice

Beastmastery:
First, we’re going to merge and remove some traits:

-Instinctual Bond: Removed
-Loud Whistle: Moved to Adept minor
-Nature’s Wrath: Moved to Master minor
-Zephyr’s Speed: Moved to Grandmaster minor

new Beastmastery Trait Line:
Minors:
-Loud Whistle
-Nature’s Wrath
-Zephyr’s Speed

Majors:
Adept:
-Speed Training
-Beastmaster’s Bond: Your pet has a bond with you that increases its attributes each time you kill a foe. Pets gain 5 stacks per kill.
-Shout Mastery
-Compassion Training
-Commanding Voice
-Mighty Swap

Master:
-Rending Attacks: Now applies to all pet types
-Stability Training: Now applies AoE stability on pet swap with ICD
-Intimidation Training: After using their F2 skills, pets next few attacks apply cripple with ICD.
-Vigorous Training

Grandmaster:
-Swap of Opportunity: You and your pet gain an attack of opportunity on pet swap with an ICD
-Natural Healing

This is my ideal trait setup for the ranger class.

Feel free to discuss any of the things I’m suggesting.

To start this topic off, I have to say that this is going to be an extensive topic the tries to address all of the problems I have with the classes trait system. I know these types of threads probably don’t see the light of day by the devs, but one of these days maybe they’ll accidentally open one of my topics and steal some of my ideas.

I’m going to avoid using numerical values for the sake of fine tune balancing issues. All changes take into account the upcoming patch preview.

So, let’s begin:

First, we’re going to merge and remove some traits:

Marksmanship
-Opening Strikes and Alpha Training, merged and left adept minor.
-Predators Instinct moved to Master Minor
-Spotter moved to Adept
-Remorseless and Precise Strike, merged and left grandmaster minor.
-Signet of the Beastmaster removed and it’s effect is now inherent to all signets.
-Eagle Eye merged with Quick Draw, increases the range of the shortbow (but not damage) on top of the current effects, and is moved to one of the open Grandmaster Tier Slots.

New Marksmanship line:
Minors:
-Opening Strikes: You and your pet cause vulnerability on the first strike when entering combat.
-Predators Instinct
-Precise Strikes: Regain Opening Strikes on kill or when entering stealth. Opening Strikes always crits.

Majors:
Adept:
-Steady Focus
-Malicious Training
-Keen Edge
-Signet Mastery
-Spotter
-Beastmasters Bond

Master:
-Vulnerable Strikes: Chance to apply vulnerability on crit
-Piercing Arrows
-Beastmasters Might
-Signet of Remedy: Activating a signet removes a condition

Grandmaster
-Eagle Eye: Increases Longbow, Shortbow, and Harpoon Gun range. Longbow and Shortbow cooldowns are decreased by 20%. Longbow and Harpoon Gun damage is increased.
-Signet Master: Activating a signet makes you and your pets next attack steal health.

Durzlla.6295:

jcbroe.4329:

Oh, and you could get pets to stick to people and do tons of damage. I had enemy bunny thumpers hit me for like 100-123 of my health, in a game where my health pool was like 565. I mean, the base health was only like 480.

Not to mention the deep wound and daze they throw on you too lol, or at least that’s what my bunny thumper build did!

Exactly lol. I played Guild Wars 1 for a long time, running interrupt ranger competitively even, playing/sidelining for some pretty decent guilds, and I can say that in all of that time, the only thing I feared on my ranger was a bunny thumper haha.

Warriors couldn’t spam their skills enough to hit me through my block stances, nor could most other classes, and interrupts countered the ones that could hurt me. But those darn bunny thumpers in RA man, so much pressure on such a short cooldown with such a scary pet lol.

It’s such a shame the builds I’m describing don’t exist in GW2 the devs killed my favorite class in favor of something that I really don’t think will ever be as good or as fun as what I had in the original Guild Wars.

Okay, cool.

Yeah, I’ve never felt that I’ve needed piercing personally, at least not more than other traits. Of course, I don’t think I’ve ever gone up against any team smart enough to outplay me by intercepting interrupts intended for their teammates haha, but I’m sure there are people out there who can tactically wrap their head around that coordination.

Not to mention the AoE pressure you can achieve in teamfights with good positioning. So maybe I’ll give that another try.

I totally understand the point about EB though. I personally don’t take it because I want to kill my pet, I take it because it’s really either that or die to the insane amounts of condi spam that none of our other skills can really help with, or can only help with once, when classes can reapply every single condi you remove, at most in a 10s interval.

Still though, my preferences aside, good build, really!

I also was only considering Vigorous Training in the context of using it for myself, and not for its AoE effect haha. Admittedly, I build very selfishly.

Oh, and you could get pets to stick to people and do tons of damage. I had enemy bunny thumpers hit me for like 100-123 of my health, in a game where my health pool was like 565. I mean, the base health was only like 480.

Instead of removing the pet swap, F1 and F3 should be merged into a toggle button, opening up the F3 slot for more pet control.

Personally, and this really is just my preference, not an argument to change your build, but I’d probably either drop 10 in BM to pick up Empathic Bond, or drop Piercing Arrows in Marksmanship to pick up Empathic Bond.

I’d probably do the first one, as currently, not that the vigor isn’t welcome, but I find that having to swap my pet for vigor can be an inconvenience, and at times when I would want vigor, it ends up taking some pressure off an opponent that I sorely miss.

That being said, I personally can probably live without Piercing Arrows more than I can live without dodges or Empathic bond.

If you think you can live without Empathic Bond though, another variant would be to drop 10 from BM to pick up 10 in Skirmishing and go with Primal Reflexes. Primal Reflexes just has a better chance of giving me vigor (personally) when I need it, because if I’m getting hit and crit, I’m probably out of dodges, and their aren’t that many builds in the current metagame that run without any Precision.

Again, that’s all preference though, and the original template is fine (although yes, the sigils do clash and energy can be dropped for a Sigil of Precision or Bloodlust). Also, a gearing variant that’s always out there for people that don’t like the 6th Rune bonus is to go 5 Vampirism Runes and 1 Divinity Rune. The extra stats and crit damage are always welcome.

Overall a good build, and I appreciate seeing that it shows off the fact that aside from the stats Skirmishing gives, the Skirmishing tree offers no real amazing trait benefits to power builds that just increasing your pets abilities doesn’t achieve.

It’s your build Durz, but how do you think a 20/10/30/0/10 build would hold up?
Traits:
VI, X
IV
III/IV/VI, III/IV/VI, XI
0
V

This is what I go with:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fMAQNAV8fjAV11xVKWo2Bi2jMZeMxeYIH9IXB/D-j0BBIOCy0CwUFBKPqIaslhFRjVLjIqWfEDA-w

I switch weapon sets between Axe/Dagger Sword/Torch and Shortbow Sword/Torch, based on preference and changing it up. When I run Axe/Dagger Sword/Torch, the weapon sigils go from Earth to Geomancy.

I also switch between Spike Trap and Vipers Nest based on the situation. I prefer Spike against players, and Vipers Nest when soloing camps.

I realize my build is heavy on ascended, so this is the alternative: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fMAQNAV8fjAV11xVKWo2Bi2jMZeMxeYIH9IXB/D-jECBIOCy0CwUFBKPqIaslhFRjVzATliIq2roIa1A-w

I use this setup for every condi build I run in WvW, traps or not.

Most of the problem with the ranger builds/class is the stigma that has been attached to it by the compounded dislike given to it by the community across all of the games content except open world PvE.

Where that stigma comes from is the lack of actions per minute and “skillshots” it takes to be effective on the ranger. Most of that problem is rooted directly in the weapon selection.

Shortbow is probably the biggest culprit, because none of its cooldown skills are designed around the need to be used for a DPS improvement. That makes the weapon almost like a guild wars 1 ranger throwback; you autoattack to do damage, and utilize your utilities as necessary.

Now, having put in a fair amount of time on my other classes (I started with a main ranger and now play everything but ele), I don’t honestly see where rangers can reach the damage potential that other classes can, which looks to me like the issue stems from the Storm Spirits ability to do burst damage without power investment, the lack of actions per minute it takes to play the class and how that effects it’s already innate survival focus.

What I mean is, again, with certain weapons, rangers only really have to worry about using their cooldowns as utility. Because there are no real rotations needed that are necessary to reach the desired DPS output, more of the players attention can be focused on using tactics to sustain themselves, like dodges or weapon evades, which compared to a class like an engineer who has to juggle kits and aim skills, or a necro who has to aim many of their skills, makes the class rather forgiving, because there is almost next to nothing to whiff on a rangers Shortbow, versus whiffing something on an engi/necro which could result in either taking the damage you were trying to avoid, or missing the skill you needed to land.

Now, most of the issues I’ve described are related directly to the ranger shortbow. Other weaponsets, like the Axe/Dagger Sword/Torch combination, never really received any complaints from anybody, because of how they play versus how the shortbow plays.

Also, people just don’t like playing against AI, and then they don’t like it when that AI does something (how pushing a button that summons something that gives benefits to teammates versus pushing a button that gives boons that passively help teammates are different concepts, I’ll never know) on top of just being there.

But I guess the main issues would be:

-Poor weapon design that doesn’t require many actions per minute to be effective and doesn’t require any skill rotations to be effective
-AI entities in a competitive atmosphere that are (perceived) to be carrying the player using them into a skill tier that they (possibly) wouldn’t be in without them

Ultimately though the stigma is the biggest issue. It’s one thing to point out the shortcomings of the particular design of the class, but to ostracize and haze players who are playing the class is over the line. Those players shouldn’t be punished for the state of development that the class is in, and they shouldn’t be punished for enjoying their play time on that class.

If you’re going to blame somebody, blame ANet. Most of the changes that the competitive community asks for to be done to the ranger class (the serious, in depth criticisms the offer changes to make the class more competitive) are the same ones that the devs have seemingly been avoiding at all costs in the ranger subforum (along with your casual stuff since it is an audience derived of all players).

Mea.5491:

I’m a trapper, I can’t equip skills that give me vigor. So yeah, I’m gonna miss that 25%…

….What?

Assuming you are running a standard build (x/30/30/x/x) for trapping, you have access to 2 out of the three traits that give vigor:

-Primal Reflexes

-Vigorous Renewal

Not sure how you aren’t getting vigor.

In no particular order:

-Currently Storm Spirit does way too much damage with its active, and the patch doesn’t even remotely address what’s ACTUALLY wrong with it (it doesn’t need a flat damage nerf, it needs to scale with power to get to that damage point, so bunker specs don’t get burst damage)

-Screen clutter is already a problem without the spirits being on the battlefield

-ranger weapons are boring and simple to use, especially the ever so common shortbow, which rewards players for just spamming the autoattack for DPS and using the other 4 skills purely for utility.

-Pet can be used as a fire and forget mechanism, and the pet will tag on to an opponent and DPS them without the ranger player having to do anything other than redbar/swap their pet.

Seeing as how the patch preview looks fairly extensive and their isn’t a high likelihood of many other extensive changes making it in, then yes, spirits are here to stay until probably next year. The builds may vary, you may still see the common 10/0/30/30/0 or 0/10/30/30/0, but more than likely, the build will change to a 0/0/30/30/10 for Mighty Swap.

However, if Natures Vengeance is deemed no longer necessary, then you could see some 10/0/30/20/10 or 0/10/30/20/10 builds, or even more bunker type builds like a 0/0/30/30/10 two spirit and Guard build with Nature’s Voice, or a 0/0/30/20/20 Spirit/BM hybrid.

Either way, all of the previous points mentioned still stand.

Usually I run with Empathic Bond, Signet of Renewal, Healing Spring, and in PvP, Melandrus Runes.

In WvW I have on Travelers Runes right now and use Troll Unguent, but I also use an Apothecary setup with the rabid/apothecary ascended trinkets, and basically have to rely on Empathic Bond and Signet of Renewal along with my raw healing to deal with conditions.

Needless to say, it is just barely enough, and not even that against certain classes (skilled Necros for instance).

No additional notes from the devs about rangers after they gathered all of this feedback from the community is just about the most depressing and disheartening thing that has happened to the class for me thus far.

The earliest I would have logged back in to the game would have been on December 10th. But after seeing that the preview is most likely going to be the only big changes made on the 10th means I won’t even be logging into this game again until probably next year some time.

I’ll be lurking around still from time to time to see if maybe the devs change their mind and give the class a little more attention. But besides that, this is pretty much an indefinite hiatus from the game for me.

For those of you that stick around, I applaud you. You have an incredible amount of patience for a game that still plays like its in beta, and whose updates suggest it won’t be leaving beta any time soon.

Disappointing to see that after all of the feedback, ranger gets put on the back burner (yet again).

I mean, there’s understandably more time that gets put into balancing the game out then just a “snap of the fingers,” but the ranger class has been sitting in a very stale and stagnant state for quite a while.

Seeing that the main suggestion every single top ranger has made since last December hasn’t even been followed up on (the fact that Empathic Bond being the only source of viable condition removal is very limiting to build versatility) is just depressing.

It’s very disappointing that the state of the class is basically going to revolve around building for Empathic Bond and then using Spirits to some degree for PvP until next year.

Just overall very unsatisfied with the class I originally chose as my main back in the betas, and the lack of seemingly meaningless progress that has been made thus far.

Well dev team, thanks for, well, it isn’t nothing, it’s just nothing truly meaningful to push the class towards even a semblance of what it would be like to be a finished class.

Send me an email when the Guild Wars 2 beta period is over. I can’t wait to play the finished product.

Currently the only skill I have a problem with on the shortbow is poison volley. I wish it was more like a rapid fire that applied a short poison per hit for a higher damage value than the autoattack.

JonPeters.5630:

Some ranger discussion.

Natural Vigor
Starting here because I think it requires the most discussion. This, simply put, was a wildly overpowered trait. I tell people not to compare one profession to another, but Engineer has this trait as a major grandmaster. It was simply too easy to put 5 points in this line and then be able to dodge every 6.67 seconds. As it stands after the change this still allows you to splash 5 points and dodge every 8 seconds. I don’t think this will ruin survivability, and I think by buff other traits further down this line it will encourge rangers who are looking to survive to go further into this trait line.

Spirits Unbound and Nature’s Voice
I think the biggest change of moving spirits unbound is it allows you to take this trait along with Nature’s Voice. Internally we have done some testing where you bring stone spirit, guard, and then still have a open third utility slot to make some truly good support ranger builds. Spirits have always had that feel and I think this brings that to the forefront.

Power Rangers
No pun intended. As many have said these guys are in an interesting position. In some ways they can be very strong, but everytime I play my ranger this way it feel like it comes up a little bit short. I think this is because they are lacking a few things as either additional tools for greatsword or as utilities. Signets are the somewhat obvious utility choice but their effect is too varied to run a strong full signet build here. Conversely all traits associated with signets tend to increase in power the more you bring. What signets need is a good trait that synergizes with bringing a single signet, like Nature’s Voice does for shouts. This would let you bring maybe one or two signets and suppliment them with something else. One idea we talked about for Greatsword would be to take the evade off of the 3rd attack of the auto-chain and put it on swoop. This would give you a second on-demand defensive skill and instead we put something less timing based (for example a whirl finisher) on that third attack to empower it.

Main-hand sword
I just want to clarify for good that main hand sword is currently working as intended. All movement skills cannot be interrupted by dodging and this is currently intentional. It has a very specific play style, and I would like it to remain. I understand that rangers want a one handed melee option that is more mobile, but that will have to wait, as I know there are a mix of players who also like how this weapon plays and I do not want to take away one of the more unique playstyles that we have and replace it with something that is fairly common.

Thanks,

Jon

JP;

Internally, do you think ranger condition removal is okay as is? Empathic Bond is certainly a strong option, but it does require a very specific trait setup that ends up limiting build diversity. I would also argue the same thing for only having the Brown Bear pet for a pet option to deal with condition removal (a grandmaster trait that removes x conditions on F2 activation with an ICD in the BM line would be a much nicer option).

Healing Spring is good, but it forces players to make the active choice between condition removal or healing at a more appropriate time. This looks intentional of course, but in that situation, most players are just going to save their heal for when it is more needed, leaving the only active condition removal option as Signet of Renewal.

Now, there is nothing wrong with Signet of Renewal, except for its long cooldown, which leaves the utility as not always being strong enough to deal with the onslaught of conditions being thrown around constantly, particularly in PvP modes.

Now, understandably there is a fine line between being able to relieve pressure caused by conditions, and completely hard countering conditions so well that there is no counterplay.

So, I’m just curious if the dev team thinks that the options rangers have to deal with conditions is in a good spot, and that you guys would rather shave down other classes, or if there is talk of any improvements to ranger condition removal, particularly, spreading it around in the traitlines so that not so many builds feel funneled into having to take 30 wilderness survival.

Chopps.5047:

jcbroe.4329:

Chopps.5047:

I don’t know, dude, troll and signet is pretty good. Kill stuff faster. Stop bunkering down so hard. That’s what I do. I also make sure that through immobilization, the enemy cannot get close enough to be a threat until I tilt the battle in my favor and enter melee for the kill. Although you’re saying that won’t cut it and I’m a scrub basically? Lol

No not at all lol. Eurantien already said this though haha:

tanky condi ranger or full berzerker ranger are the only viable builds

Zerker builds don’t take Empathic Bond.

The main issue is that there is no in between. Without zerkers, you don’t kill quite fast enough and you need Empathic Bond for sustain against the massive amount of conditions being spammed, which in turn limits the build versatility because for a lot of the different gear setups available, Empathic Bond is still a necessity in order to have the required sustainability to win fights.

This also though is more of a metagame problem than a ranger problem, because if condition spam gets “shaved” enough to the point where sacrificing Empathic Bond isn’t as detrimental to as many builds as it is now, then it will open up quite a number of different options.

I bet I could prove some of your statements wrong. I wish I could play with you. A lot of the drawbacks you point out can be made up for by superior skill. Also, you underestimate other builds and playstyles you haven’t personally tested.

But…. anybody with superior skill should be beating the person with inferior skill. The discussion I’m having is about the options that determine how much of an uphill battle one side has against another.

What would be better though, is to just show a simple matchup chart in which Empathic Bond makes a difference against the current most commonly run builds.

It would go something like:
Classes using their most common build in which Empathic Bond is beneficial:

Necromancer – Dhuumfire/Terror
Engineer – Nade/Bomb
Ranger – Spirit

Classes it doesn’t help or make a huge difference:

Warrior – Hammer/Longbow Zerker
Mesmer – Shatter
Guardian – AH Bunker
Thief – D/P or S/D
Ele – (haven’t seen one in awhile, I’d have to watch CMC I believe if I wanted a build)

Looking at those numbers, and taking into consideration that most teams are running either 1 or 2 of the classes where Empathic Bond is beneficial, then in reality, it would only be useful against 40% of their team, meaning that it does have the potential to be unneeded.

That brings up the question; why then is Empathic Bond considered by so many people so necessary?

That would bring me right back to this point:

“This also though is more of a metagame problem than a ranger problem, because if condition spam gets “shaved” enough to the point where sacrificing Empathic Bond isn’t as detrimental to as many builds as it is now, then it will open up quite a number of different options.”

And I’m not trying to have a malicious argument with you Chopps Just trying to have an informative conversation about the topic. Oh, and if you’re NA, feel free to find me any time in game. I have a pretty busy work schedule right now, but I’m on quite frequently, at least until CoD Ghosts comes out Tuesday lol.

Nike.2631:

Indoles.1467:

jcbroe.4329:

Yeah, I thought we decided long ago that Empathic Bond our only source of viable condition removal is the biggest thing that is killing build diversity.

I wish Karl would come back and comment on whether or not there is an internal discussion happening about this very problem (or perceived problem).

I agree it is. Without it, you rely on not taking any focus in a fight and that simply won’t happen. There are some decent changes here, but the only one I see that promotes any build diversity is the spirits unbound and nature’s vengeance swap. Otherwise, rangers are still stuck 30 deep in wilderness survival with 40 points to pick from for their respective build.

I’m not going to disagree with you directly, but for what environment are you talking about (…’cause I rarely ever build for Empathic Bond…)?

PvP and arguably WvW (there are those of the mindset that WvW is all about zerging, in which case if that’s the role you take, then no, because you’ll already be so glassy a breeze will kill you, let alone conditions). In general, any place you can think of that will relentlessly spam conditions at you on a very short cooldown.

Lol. This same guy had a topic the other day where he said he only tested something twice as opposed to testing it multiple times, because he said something along the lines of “it will be the same variable every time, so it won’t change, so you’ll get the same results the 1000th time as you do the 2nd time.”

I would link the topic because some of the things in there are comedy gold, but I’d be afraid of an infraction since this thread could be taken as attacking somebody (not my intention, I just find the things said to be hilarious) and linking it could lead to “singling him out.”

If you can find the topic, get some popcorn ready. Oh, and the thieves are crying so hard right now that it’s actually making me feel better about my ranger even though upcoming ranger changes don’t really budge the state of the class in any direction.