Guild Wars 2

So is it safe to say that instead of ruining the only viable ele trait trees we should get the other trait trees on par and make them appealing… Then maybe look at toning those currently (OP) trait trees down?

Gallrvaghn.4921:

condiments.8043:

There are a couple of large flaws with your analysis of this “dichotomy” you’ve constructed of how damage dealing methods scenarios should play out.

Using the single target vs. AOE argument fails because of how easy it is to hybridize damage sources through weapon swap. Even the thief can easily sit on his shortbow for 90% of his gametime for providing safe highly sustained AOE damage with trick shot, and absurdly high AOE damage with short range cluster bombs along with choking gas for downed enemies and disabling shot for easy resets with damage avoidance. Saying a thief should win 1v1 encounters solely on the basis that one component of its damage dealing is single target is a mis-representation of the complex interactions between classes in team fights when viewed through the lens of 1v1 battle with no contextual value.

This is perhaps why dueling isn’t representative of game balance whatsoever. I could easily make non-standard thief builds and be one of the deadliest 1v1 classes in the game because of how powerful some of the stealth tools are but you wouldn’t be contributing adequately enough in a team fight. Burst specs, while not great in 1v1 fights, maximize their damage potential for priority and out of position targets.

Good thing you pointed out the weapon swap ability which basically allows any class to mix both single target and AOE skills depending on the weapon sets.

But I’m afraid the OP will regard your argument as irrelevant just like mine and other players posts. Based on the OP’s replies, he’s just clearly stating that mesmer shatters and d/d eles are OP and not AOE in general. XD

Mufa stated an issue where only he felt he had a problem not long ago with the whole asura’s are OP because they are small. His reasoning was that he couldn’t effectively land backstab against asura (then goes on to claim he owns asuras all day) other people brought up issues with animations and so on and those were valid but his was completely about nothing but landing a backstab and good on people for finding another hard counter to BS thieves. His issue here is with AOE’s which all thief players have stated are the best counter to thieves, now here we have a thief saying that he wants AOE nerfed…. Anyone see a pattern here?

Mrbig.8019:

Mufa.1326:

These two (jportell and Arheundel) are just forum trolls defending their classes in their current obscene state even if it means destruction of the game itself.

I would not pay attention to them.

he has a point, you’re the one being the troll right now.

They play 2 classes having only 1 really viable build ( altough dps ele can be viable, with the right comp).

the “NERF NERF NERF THE KITTEN” ideology already hit the thief ( OH dagger nerfed to dust in the attempt to reduce the burst while it only killed any balanced build attempt, aka smiter booned, leeching venom nerfed into dust with “venom charge lost on miss”, tactical strike smiter booned ) and everybody can see where are we now: burst, and nothing else.

Indeed shatter mesmer ( when paired with portal, time warp and illusion of life, but it’s more about those u-skill than the proff itself) is OP, indeed THAT ele build is OP.

But if you nerf them like you did with the thief, you force people EVEN MORE into going with that build while also reducing its efficacy.

You ruin a profession, you pigeon hole it.

I don’t want another nerf hammer like they did with my S/D thief.

S/D thief needs a fix… The evade on that 3 build is kinda a joke… Rangers have better mobility with a sword dagger build. Mesmers have somewhat viable builds elsewhere… if our shatters get nerfed we will turn into an full on bunker build. Or a 30/30/0/0/10 Mantra build which has way more damage potential than shatters and you will ALLL be whining… But still none are as demanding or fun to play kittenters…

Schwahrheit.4203:

No really, you people deny the concept of the OP’s post. Makes me wonder why I even bother arguing in the forums with simple-minded BS.

Understand that when something is clearly broken such as Mesmer’s mechanics as a whole, the least you could do is prove it wrong. Because chances are you couldn’t even if you wanted to.

Prove it wrong? Okay a mesmer shatter can’t even touch the thief backstab build.. At all… Sure we can burn a thief down but not before they can burn us down… But it is our only reliabe source of damage…. And mesmer mechanics are broken… Still several things are broken and thieves have the upper hand on us because in order to summon an illusion using a skill we need an enemy targeted… So this thread is simply a thief saying that he doesn’t like the hard counter to his class (Devs have already said the hard counter to stealth is AOE then they say that they wanna nerf AOE) so why shouldn’t we fight it? Lets nerf backstab to max for 5k damage max per hit. No more…

daydream.2938:

The reason aoe is too strong is that it does the same, or sometimes even more damage than single target.

If both hits do 5000 damage, but one is aoe, its objectively superior. (all other things equal like cast time , cooldown etc).

Right now Aoe is too strong. Its not about merely providing more single target options its that SINGLE TARGET ABILITIES SHOULD HIT HARDER THAN AOES.

Variety =/ balance. A class can be balanced with only 1 viable spec.
Another class can have 8 ways to be played , all subpar.

More options isnt relevant unless they are viable options.
But a good example of the kind of thing you are talking about is people who want thief burst toned down. If theif burst got toned down, without any compensation to the class, they would become useless in high end play.

The same is said for people that want AOE damage nerfed. Most classes that are on the chopping block for AOE nerf have no viable single target options. And their is no compensation being suggested to go along with these nerfs to these peoples AOE damage. Look at Engi 100nades… Their only real burst if from the 100nades build. It just so happens to be AOE as well… Mesmers we are classified as a dueling class but our best reliable damage is AOE. Our single target damage is a joke when compared to a warrior or a thief or even a rapid fire ranger…. Our shatters are targeted on one single target but they just so happen to do AOE damage. Now lets say they change it to where our shatters only do single target we then have only TWO AOE attacks. Ele’s… Nearly every single weapon/attack on ele’s is some form of AOE so nerfing AOE would destroy the entire ele class and leave engi’s with no decent damage build and they aren’t good at tanking at all.

I see what you are doing here… And… I like it.

Razor.6392:

Name “mesmers op” and without fail that newbie will pop up.

Anyway, OP, edit your original post and include the fact that you’re a thief, it’s a major comedy factor that you’re overlooking so many readers are missing out.

So is this how it is now? Ele’s not only are hard to kill thanks to that one effing build, now they also do too much aoe damage, they have too much mobility, too much everything. So obviously, the thief players wants to pretty much delete them.

You say that this also goes for shatter mesmers, yeah sure buddy. One doesn’t have to be a genius to realize that 95% of the abilities that a D/D ele has, are AoE. So wtf are you suggesting? Stop with the bs please

People like the op are sickening tbh. Contribute nothing to a valuable discussion by subtly posting their QQ claims in a polite manner. Real clever bro, I’ll troll you back by posting a subtle thief QQ thread shortly, they’re too op, I can counter them apparently but I’ll still raise my voice to cry like the little kitten I am.

I have a suggestion that I think everyone except the OP will like and it even includes his desire to nerf AOE for ele’s mesmers and any other class that has high dmg AOE abilities. Go ahead nerf it that’s FINE… Here is another suggestion because the stealth spamming is too much (just ask anyone who isn’t a thief). The MOMENT a thief goes into stealth and the other players no longer have something to target we break combat and immediately regen health (like mobs do in PvE when the thief goes stealth). This won’t nerf stealth in itself but instead buff all players that have to deal with stealth. And just because I don’t do HARDCORE rank 30 PvP does not make me a newb. Sorry Razor I just know how mesmer works (I also have an ele!) But I am not gonna propose all these hardcore nerfs to them.

Mufa.1326:

Guys, please have so much sense to understand that discussing skill coodlowns and other skill characteristics is irrelevant.

That is all encompassed in the following fact:
Shatter mesmer and d/d elementalists are mostly AOE dmg classes that are comparable or stronger than single target dmg classes/builds.

It is irrelevant how classes/builds get to that strength in 1v1, what IS relevant is that they are there.
And then what is further relevant is that they become MUCH stronger than single target dmg class/build in team fights.

That is severely bad design.

I am sorry many people just cannot follow and get lost in the details.

We aren’t lost… You want our AOE damage nerfed when we have no other viable source of damage. It’s cool. We got it. But your idea is just terrible and you are so deluded in your backstab insta kill build that you refuse to see that we have no other options. Got it? Comprende? We have broken it down plenty for you.

Tricare.2946:

The focus is a joke in any 1v1 to 1v3. You’ll be killed using it. The only use it has is for quick equips for the speed and pulling people off walls. You’re silly if you think otherwise.

Focus has the highest damaging phantasm (only downside is he doesnt move). This just requires a little bit more planning and timing. And traited in dungeons. Who needs the 20 in dueling? Ever have harpies kill themselves in the uncategorized? Or how bow facing a p/d thief or a p/d thief and a ranger or two? They seriously kill themselves… Focus is great.

Edit: Meant 20 in domination LOLOL. My bad there.

Schwahrheit.4203:

Looking at Mesmers. They can duel, they can team fight. You have to be really stupid to not understand how imbalanced this class’ mechanics are. You’re telling me turtling based on blurred Frenzy’s cool down is so hard in a duel? You’re telling me getting a shatter off in team fights is hard? Apply what you learned as a Mesmer on a class that takes effort, chances are you’re going to fail.

ALL mesmer illusion summons rely on “You must have an enemy targeted to use that skill” So that means we have about 3 seconds to get a thief down considering that our weapons only give us 2 AOE skills one of which is LOL. And w/o blurred frenzy mesmers chances to block are just well a joke because the only other option is on a long cool down and any weapon blocks we have only block one attack and not for an entire duration.

Mufa.1326:

dreztina.4820:

Everyone here is talking about nerfing ele damage so they aren’t as good 1v1, but ele damage has nothing to do with their 1v1 potential. Ele damage already sucks on a single target. I run just about full glass in wvw and spvp/tpvp, and my entire burst combo combined does about 2/3 the damage of a single hundred blades. You can’t just ignore the benefit of downing someone instantly which other classes are able to do just because eles can spread more damage around over time.

Ele is already getting their survivability nerfed a lot next patch. Wait and see if they’re still problematic after that instead of just knee jerk gutting every aspect of the class at once.

I was talking primarily about their 1v1 strength.

The principle I proposed is that: aoe class/build cannot be stronger or comparable to single-target class/build in 1v1 and then get extra benefit of dmg scaling into 5v5.

How they fix them, through survivability or dmg, I do not care personally.

I also think that d/d elementalists got overemphasized in the discussion. Shatter mesmer is in the similar situation and in general dmg should not scale linearly (aoe hitting 5 ppl should not do total of 5x the dmg).

Shatter mesmer damage scales down with how many illusions they have up. So this means that a single illusion will do more damage individually than three illusions. So this means a three illusion mindwrack will do more damage than a single illusion yes. But each illusions damage is individually less than an individual shatter. So it is already scaled sir. Also our shatters are the only source we have of burst damage…. Where as thieves… just LOL… Lets call this what it is. You are worried that other classes can keep up with your burst. Now if they give us awesome single target burst that doesn’t rely on shatters I am all for it. However don’t try to make this a nerf AOE damage because we know how good cluster bomb can be even after the nerf. Just stop trying to ruin other classes.

Jerks.3172:

Columba.9730:

vespers.1759:

i think it’s unfair that my rapid fire can do 7k in 10 hits but a thief can do 7k+ in 1 hit. i got hit for a 5k steal today. come on. anyone can dodge my rapid fire, no one can dodge a steal from invis.

i don’t mind high dmg, but when you can hit 1 button and do it, or hit the same button and do it multiple times it jsut gets old very fast. also stealth stomp… come on.

i watched a thief dance around 10 people today downing and stomping from stealth. then he ran away.

90% of solo players i see in wvwvw are thieves. at this point i just run away when i see a thief, because i don’t stand a chance. it isn’t a L2P issue. i can handle other classes minus eles and some mesmers alright, but thieves are just something else.

yep, l2p addressed to all non thief players is pretty meaningless. It seems like desparation.

How is it meaningless ? People tell you how to counter thieves yet you say “durr nope impossible” and come up with another stupid arguement which we tell you off again then you go back to the first one its the same with you.. lol

You only rotate by perma stealth,culling, cant target. yet we told you all the ways you can find kill thieves for all these problems.

Stealth Meh. I don’t see it as a huge issue. The culling rendering aspect is HUGE! I feel like this needs addressed first and foremost because when a p/d thief is attacking you and his burst is done THEN he appears. There is a problem. If they get culling fixed and everything working properly and the revealed debuff actually WORKS. Then we can see what can/should/if anything will be done about stealth.

Mrbig.8019:

jportell.2197:

Whether or not YOU think it is working as intended is irrelevant. If it was such a HUGE gamebreaking issue then it would have been addressed when they addressed the shattered strength bug. This is one of the few things that has not been nerfed on mesmers and also one of the few things that actually works for us 100% of the time. So just because you think it is gamebreaking (everyone else is concerned with timewarp/portal/ etc) does not mean that it is. And also on the whole burst classes thing. Boo freaking hoo. So mesmers make you work a little bit to land your burst. Too bad. Illusionary persona requires us to go all the way into the grand master tree to get so its effects should be available even with no illusions considering that we only have one or two oh*kitten* buttons available via weapon sets to begin with.

You’re SUPPOSING, and whining.

“boo hoo i spent 30 trait points into illusions, it needs to AT LEAST trigger without illusions”.

No. The description says otherwise.

Every class has tons of bugs, a bouncing projectile makes the thief to be destealthed when he’s hit within shadow refuge area, and this is happening from culling changes in december ( 2 months ago).

This is gamebreaking for a thief, yet it still haven’t been fixed.

Shattered might was TEN TIMES more gambreaking than this, since you could not only macro shatter for double damage, you could also do it with 25 stacks of might on, for quadruple double damage ( 14k shatter every 10 secs ?).

And LOL, are you really saying you have few escaping abilities ?

Do you know you have the cheapest stunbreaker CD ( blink) and are the class with the greatest number of low CD stunbreakers in the whole game ?

Do you know you are THE ONLY class with a stunbreaker INCORPORATED into you weapon skills ( along with the thief, on a not-pvp viable-weapon), and it’s on a 8 secs CD with a mere 5 trait point investment ( aka phase retreat) ?

inb4 “phase retreat is not a stunbreaker, it doesn’t break stun”.

It actually works even better. If you decoy after basilisk ( or any other stun-before-burst) you’ll still be hit: phase retreat teleports you away, basically nullifying the whole burst; it’s A LOT BETTER than a stunbreak.

And it also, after SIX MONTHS, still makes my pets to lose aggro, when it really shouldn’t.

Should i go on ?

thanks god the staff is subpar in teamfights so mesmers prefer to roll with GS for max team utility.

Stunbreakers sure we got those. We have 3 in our skills just like every other class (ele cantrips, thieves shadow step, Rangers lightning reflexes and so on.) But for actually escaping? We have blink….phase retreat and maybe focus 4 but. But we are still one of the slowest classes. Us and warriors are the only burst classes without a guaranteed 25% speed increase and any thief, d/d ele, trap ranger or warrior of any type can catch us REALLY quick. Have you confirmed that it shouldn’t make your pets lose agro? What about the bug in rangers where their conditions get transferred to their pets every 10 seconds but instead of being transferred all conditions just “poof” gone. Illusionary persona being used without any illusions is not a bug nor is it game breaking. And if the description saying otherwise is really that big of a deal to you guess what ANet will prolly do? Change the description. Because that is way more simple than changing coding and they have a history of doing it on things for mesmers that are already broken(cough Portal Duration cough).People have been using it since beta and it has never been changed or touched. You are simply reaching. That is all.
Edit: Also not every Mesmer uses staff or GS some actually use scepter (shocker) because scepter and offhand sword are the greatest clone generating potential. Too bad confusion got nerfed in PvP. I loved just killing people by them doing stuff.

Balfour.9046:

Mada.5319:

So you think it’s wrong for them to stand in their spawn? since, you know…. that spot is part of their spawn……

standing at that spot is no different than waypointing back to their spawn and coming back….

brains……. use them.

Obviously someone that uses the exploit, otherwise you would realize that was not the purpose of the game to allow someone to rub against a wall and stay invulnerable

To the Mr. Brains… use them fella. If this is not an exploit or an oversight and it truly is their spawn. Then how come the are invuln only at that section on the base of the cliff and not the entire base of the cliff face? I mean if it really is their spawn then they should be able to get all the way back up that cliff to their main spawn area. But can they? No. These areas were designed to make players weigh the risks of going down these cliffs. It is not meant to be an “You are beating me I am going to run back to this invuln spot” advantage. And also if any thinks this is not an exploit. Here is the definition of an exploit from ANet.
“Anything that gives you an unfair advantage over any player or mob.” Notice in PvE how if you are fighting a mob from an area that they can’t damage you you get “Invulnerable” flashed across your screen after a space of time. That’s because the system registers that you have an unfair advantage. This spot it is exactly the opposite. You are invulnerable yet can still do damage. Hence the advantage is unfair and needs addressed.

jwburks.9735:

jportell.2197:

Noone really gives a rip about badges… I have dealt with BS thieves fairly well before but the issue with haste backstab combos is that the rendering issue takes so long that they are nearly halfway through their combo before I even have a target and by then my health is done… And this is coming from a defensive build. NowI know other classes have access to haste/quickness/stealth mesmers have timewarp and a couple invis skills and timewarp is great for groups but it is centered around an area and not on one specific player. Warriors have frenzy but they take double damage. Rangers have hide in plain sight for a certain amount of time and quickening zephyr. But none of these other classes are as rewarded for the combination of stealth AND quickness like thieves. And before you have the audacity to stay use stun breakers or a block or some other random bs. Think about the amount of time it takes compared to the amount of time it takes their combo to finish while hasted. If the computer can’t register that a player is there in that amount of time how can we and then also react. This is broken and please don’t try to argue other wise.

Why take it out on one class? Culling is the real issue, not thieves.

No it isn’t. Situations like this happen in sPvP too. I don’t like calling our for nerfs. I REALLY don’t because I play one of the most nerfed classes in game. But stealth needs some sort of nerf. Or a good one is make the thief break stealth even if the attack misses. If a Mesmer misses a shatter they have to pop all their illusions back up and wait x-seconds on a cooldown. If an ele mistimes their attunement swap they have to wait 15 seconds to get back to that attunement. If a warrior screws up and misses their kill shot they have to build that adrenaline back up and so on and so on. Thief is the only class that gets 0 punishment for not landing their burst from stealth.

Mrbig.8019:

jportell.2197:

Mrbig.8019:

jportell.2197:

Illusionary persona is meant to give you the ability to use a shatter without needing illusions up. The effect is rather small considering that the shatters get better with more illusions but it is by no means OP. Thieves get the most stealth in the game. Ele’s get mist form. Guardians get other invulns plus a ton of blocks. Warriors get endure pain and engis have 3 blocks. Plus rangers have a ton of evades. This is working as intended and if you are pressuring the mesmer to waste their longest cooldown shatter and not have any illusions up then they prolly wont last much longer anyways. nerfing/changing illusionary persona would destroy the mesmer class (i know this has been said about other changes) but almost every viable mesmer build heavily and I mean HEAVILY relies on illusionary persona to be viable.

That’s not my point.

The description says otherwise.

A mesmer should not be allowed to shatter without any illusion up, illusionary persona or not.

illusionary persona should trigger ONLY when you’re effectively shattering an illusion.

maybe this is not the case for thieves ( a thief can literally oneshot a mesmer), but via distortion a mesmer could be able to nullify any other burst ( engie, war, mesmer etc) even with all his stubreakers off CD and without a single clone up.

this is not fine and should be fixed, or i’d like to know from devs if it’s working as intended.

Here you go pulled straight from the wiki with 0 bugs listed. If it was a bug it would have been noted/dealt with in the whole shattered strength fiasco. But straight from the horses mouth:

“This trait makes you count as an additional illusion for shatter skills effects.”
So in essence the trait does only trigger when you are shattering an illusion because the system reads you as an illusion.

Wiki is written by people. This is all empirical evidence, there’s no word from a dev into this.

And the trait description says otherwise: when shattering an illusion you reproduce the shatter effect as well.

No illusions, no illusionary persona.

If i should account all thief bugs ( and things supposed to be working as intended, like the “no destealth when hitting an invulnerable target” when they actually are not) i would have to kinda redo the whole thief wiki.

As i said, it’s never an issue for me, since i play thief ( aka: mesmers gets oneshotted without noticing and GG, even more since i play D/P instead of the noob trap D/D), BM hybrid ranger ( where only phase retreat “and my pets suddenly lose aggro somehow and start attacking random clones when they should stick on the real mesmer till he goes stealthed” is an issue, and it’s another bug favouring the mesmer) and HGH engie ( LOL mesmers).

But this can be gamebreaking for all other burst classes.

Whether or not YOU think it is working as intended is irrelevant. If it was such a HUGE gamebreaking issue then it would have been addressed when they addressed the shattered strength bug. This is one of the few things that has not been nerfed on mesmers and also one of the few things that actually works for us 100% of the time. So just because you think it is gamebreaking (everyone else is concerned with timewarp/portal/ etc) does not mean that it is. And also on the whole burst classes thing. Boo freaking hoo. So mesmers make you work a little bit to land your burst. Too bad. Illusionary persona requires us to go all the way into the grand master tree to get so its effects should be available even with no illusions considering that we only have one or two oh*kitten* buttons available via weapon sets to begin with.

Mrbig.8019:

jportell.2197:

Illusionary persona is meant to give you the ability to use a shatter without needing illusions up. The effect is rather small considering that the shatters get better with more illusions but it is by no means OP. Thieves get the most stealth in the game. Ele’s get mist form. Guardians get other invulns plus a ton of blocks. Warriors get endure pain and engis have 3 blocks. Plus rangers have a ton of evades. This is working as intended and if you are pressuring the mesmer to waste their longest cooldown shatter and not have any illusions up then they prolly wont last much longer anyways. nerfing/changing illusionary persona would destroy the mesmer class (i know this has been said about other changes) but almost every viable mesmer build heavily and I mean HEAVILY relies on illusionary persona to be viable.

That’s not my point.

The description says otherwise.

A mesmer should not be allowed to shatter without any illusion up, illusionary persona or not.

illusionary persona should trigger ONLY when you’re effectively shattering an illusion.

maybe this is not the case for thieves ( a thief can literally oneshot a mesmer), but via distortion a mesmer could be able to nullify any other burst ( engie, war, mesmer etc) even with all his stubreakers off CD and without a single clone up.

this is not fine and should be fixed, or i’d like to know from devs if it’s working as intended.

Here you go pulled straight from the wiki with 0 bugs listed. If it was a bug it would have been noted/dealt with in the whole shattered strength fiasco. But straight from the horses mouth:

“This trait makes you count as an additional illusion for shatter skills effects.”
So in essence the trait does only trigger when you are shattering an illusion because the system reads you as an illusion.

Illusionary persona is meant to give you the ability to use a shatter without needing illusions up. The effect is rather small considering that the shatters get better with more illusions but it is by no means OP. Thieves get the most stealth in the game. Ele’s get mist form. Guardians get other invulns plus a ton of blocks. Warriors get endure pain and engis have 3 blocks. Plus rangers have a ton of evades. This is working as intended and if you are pressuring the mesmer to waste their longest cooldown shatter and not have any illusions up then they prolly wont last much longer anyways. nerfing/changing illusionary persona would destroy the mesmer class (i know this has been said about other changes) but almost every viable mesmer build heavily and I mean HEAVILY relies on illusionary persona to be viable.

Zoel.9154:

The objectives are further than 1500 range from the spot. If you can’t deal with it, then that’s a you problem. I am elated whenever someone uses it to kill someone from my server, because frankly they aren’t doing anything worthwhile if they get killed by it.

They are further than 1500 but not by much. Any other invuln spot (including the ones that are at the very north) is much further from the objective.

Tei.1704:

If the invulnerable zones at refuge are oversights, they are good ones. Refuge is the only camp in the game without any sort of back door exit. If the zones go away, the camp should be redesigned so people losing a fight at refuge don’t have to run past a potentially much larger enemy force or be trapped. In fact, another exit would be much better because anybody from any team could use it.

This is where the talk of risk vs reward comes in. Right now there is no risk in assaulting a camp with a prime location near a keep and a tower for assaulting. It is should be the hardest to take because the reward is you get plenty of supply to siege the keep right next door. Notice how lodge on the island has easy access to both invading servers but also gives the best escape? That’s because the reward of capping this camp is lowest. It is still quite a trek to get the supply from the camp to the assault point. The same can be said for the x-lowlands camp. It doesn’t give as viable an escape option as the lodge camp but it also isn’t RIGHT at the doorstep of a keep. So you still have a couple escape routes if capping this camp goes south. More than vale but less than lodge and that is because the reward is greater than lodge but less than vale. Make sense? The camp that is basically a welcome mat for bay should be the hardest to take and involve the greatest risk. Right now that simply is not so.

Edit: To the person that stated that is their spawn and they should be able to run back to it like their front gate. Does running to this spot allow them to run all the way up to the main part of their spawn? No. Does the front gate of their spawn give instant easy access to a key camp? No. Now both spawns are right in front of a tower and if capping that goes south they still have to run across an open field back to their invuln spot but it still involves crossing more open space to get there. Please don’t try and cheapen this exploit by stating it is their spawn because it is not.

Very much so this is a problem. It leads to entire groups of people having to try to protect this camp while the invading server can just sit there and heal up and still do damage. Did you ever notice how if you are at a higher elevation in PvE than the mob you are attacking and you suddenly get an invuln message when you attack. Do you know why this is? Because where the mob is at it cannot do damage to you. Therefore you are given an unfair advantage against the mob and the system registers this and thereby forces you to be on equal ground with the mob. In WvW it is the exact opposite you retreat to this bugged invuln spot are able to dish out damage frustrating the life out of the defending players all the while they can’t damage you. If they refuse to fix the spot then make your attacks to all other enemies/players receive the invun message there by forcing you to either A. Actually come out and fight or B. Be on equal footing with the players you are fighting where they are annoyingly invulnerable simply because you are. I don’t think this fix would be that hard to implement since they can already do it in PvE

Windwalker.7421:

Pyroatheist: “This build has 0 weaknesses with the exception of a phantasm mesmer, and I’ll take those odds any day.”

Definitely, since overall it’s not a popular build since it can be very frustrating vs. many/most other classes. I’ve run into this too, but I thought I probably just lacked skill to beat the phant Mesmer, so it’s nice to see this is something others have been having issues with as well.

I agree though, not worth changing the build over. As you said, disengaging is easy and a single fairly unpopular build on one class is not worth worrying about. ;-)

I guess in the name of balance though it’s worth saying that this build does have many other weaknesses, such as fairly lacking team utility, lacking burst, etc. It’s mainly in 1v1 or 2v1 where you can say it has very few weaknesses vs. other classes that can not be overcome by skillful play.

I beg to differ on the group utility thing! It is great in dungeons!

Razor.6392:

Yeah that sucks, mesmers are op.

Coming from an ele. Most likely d/d. Seriously most mesmer skills are shoddy and unreliable and when we get them to work its like YAYYYYYYY but the amount of timing it takes to perfect a curtain pull combo and distance judging is quite ridiculous.

MrFlump.8725:

it can be laid down at 900 range

Woops my bad on that one… even still unless an enemy is standing right near the edge of the tower one pull is impossible to yank someone off the edge. It takes two well coordinated pulls and is not something to need nerfed.

The curtain can be laid down at a range of 600. And the pull range is 550. So if you are within that range you get pulled and the pull range is about 450. And they are not out of range of other AOE spells. Staff ele’s AOE’s and mesmers chaos storm can reach there. Temporal curtain has a shorter range than the other pulls. But here again you are asking for one of our two physical (movement) crowd control techniques to be nerfed. And that in and of it self is ridiculous.

Working as intended. It was two mesmers most likely and they were just very well coordinated. All classes have pulls or knockbacks/downs. Engineers have a 1200 range pull as well as thieves. And it is not unfair because mesmers only have too crowd control techniques that revolve around physical crowd control.

I’m sorry but with a guild name like Original GANKstars people are most likely not gonna like you to begin with the name is just abrasive. Also there are SEVERAL times when DB and FA are in an epic keep/tower battle. And OG will just come on through and gank any outliers they can reach. But they seriously just SIT and watch a fight instead of going for their own BL which is all FA colored. Its kinda sad OG and guilds like you make me very happy that I am in DB. And my guild does not engage in such terrible tactics as you all.

Apparently if you look at the sPvP threads asura’s are OP literally because of their size.

Scepter/sword is a good clone generation machine. I tried sword torch but I feel the focus is much better. ESPECIALLY when its traited. And the sword mainhand is like our only staple mainhand weapon but I am really starting to dig the scepter.

Then please push for our weapons to be fixed! Beg the devs to make the attack speed faster on the scepter and staff. Remove the spacing requirements on the greatswords make mind stab on target instead. For the love of god can we actually have a consistent illusionary leap! Make the iWarden able to follow the targets after its first attack or if it is truly meant as defensive make it spawn on us and not the target! These are all things that mesmer players want fixed. But they are not breaking us as bad as you would think. I would love for our weapon skills to be consistent across the board. But we just wanted to point out the weapons still have plus sides.

This is a bogus thing. They give small improvements to stats. These tokens are obtained from karma vendors in Wayfarer foothills. But they should not be there at all. The stats bonuses are quite small. But it still shouldn’t be there. Did you report it as an exploit?

They won’t rework our weapon skills to make them better at lower levels. And they most certainly won’t change the traits around to make them more available at mid tier. Only one mesmer weapon trait is available at the lower tiers and that is blade training in dueling. If you look elsewhere mesmer is one of the most whined about classes and are always called OP. I am just glad that this forum is highlighting some weaknesses and maybe we will get some buffs. At 80 we are amazing… but I doubt we will get any of these buffs that people want here. It seems like when ANet sees mesmer they just think Hmmm…
“NERF!”
“But that skill is working fine!”
“I don’t care its a mesmer skill nerf it!”

Just a thought. And maybe reason’s like this is why all level 80 mesmers defend their class so vehemently.

@OP mesmer weapons are a pain in the neck starting out. I will be honest. I dropped my mes for about a month at around level 20 because I was just too frustrated with how it worked and felt like I died wayyyyy too much. Fast forward 60 levels. I use my mesmer for everything. I hardly play any alts anymore and use nothing but my mesmer. This is a very demanding class and few of our weapons are inherently “great”. I will break down your list for you.

Scepter: Skill 1 is a slow attack rate, BUT you can easily generate clones and skill two gives you a clone and a very good amount of damage if the block lands. If not you can still blind your foe. Skill 3 is just great with your shatters(illusionary retribution15 pt trait in illusions). It is quite easy to stack confusion with that skill and timing is everything. (scepter would be better if they brought back how it used to be when its auto attack added confusion)

Staff: 20 points into chaos and take chaotic dampening it really adds to survivability and gives your staff skills a shorter cooldown.

Sword: Its a melee weapon and the illusionary leap/swap combo is great when it works. And blurred frenzy is good even if we aren’t near an enemy because it gives us some good defense. Sword off hand gives a phantasm that does the highest damage in a single attack. Not to mention that sword 4 has c/c and a block that does damage and gives a clone. Couple a scepter with a sword. You easily have the highest illusion generation weapon set available to mesmers. 4/5 of these weapon skills have the ability to generate and illusion. Now the downside is if you are fighting someone that is chaining attacks you will only block one but it still helps you on the opening and does damage as well. You with this set though you can easily have a full set of illusions out without using any utility slots or dodging.

Greatsword: The izerker is my homie and he does good at helping ensure that our enemies don’t get away. Skill two does good damage but this is if you trait illusionary elasticity in illusions… Then you can get 9 stacks of vuln on them and 6 stacks of might on you (I think) not to mention the damage of this skill is now doubled. Skill 3 most mesmers would agree is a joke because its AOE is small and the sword is better for boon stripping. Skill 5 is good crowd control.

Torch: For the trade off in cooldowns most don’t like it some love it. If you trait for cleansing conflagration in domination your torch skills remove conditions and that is a plus because we have crap condition removal in other skills. Skill 5 is good for confusion heavy builds so someone with a scepter/torch and glamours traited to blind/confuse can easily wrack confusion and against ele’s that are using tornado or thieves with dagger storm its an instant win.

Pistol: not decent single target damage but AMAZING single target damage. And if you are willing to give up other points else where and trait duelists discipline this bad boy can become a 100% combo projectile finisher. So if you have any glamor skill (null field/feedback/veil/timewarp) you can wrack up 8 stacks of confusion by pressing 2 buttons. And pistol 5 has amazing crowd control… you can stop up to four targets cold and its wonderful in wvw or in dungeons.

Focus: This might be my favorite off hand weapon. Once again its usefulness relies heavily on traits. If you trait wardens feedback (20 in inspiration) your warden not only blocks projectiles but reflects them. You can have rangers/unload thieves/killshot warriors just kill themselves and its beautiful. Plus the temporal curtain is a combo field light which gives you retaliation if you do sword 3 from there. Plus the iWarden can do almost 4.5k damage just off of his attack excluding the reflects. And this is with no traits in power line.

TL:DR

mesmer weapons are great but we rely most heavily on our traits to have our weapons be great. This is more so than any other class in the game.

jwburks.9735:

If it didn’t take 300+ badges to buy a piece of armor in WvW, no one would be complaining so much about thieves anymore. You’d be laughing at us instead.

Noone really gives a rip about badges… I have dealt with BS thieves fairly well before but the issue with haste backstab combos is that the rendering issue takes so long that they are nearly halfway through their combo before I even have a target and by then my health is done… And this is coming from a defensive build. NowI know other classes have access to haste/quickness/stealth mesmers have timewarp and a couple invis skills and timewarp is great for groups but it is centered around an area and not on one specific player. Warriors have frenzy but they take double damage. Rangers have hide in plain sight for a certain amount of time and quickening zephyr. But none of these other classes are as rewarded for the combination of stealth AND quickness like thieves. And before you have the audacity to stay use stun breakers or a block or some other random bs. Think about the amount of time it takes compared to the amount of time it takes their combo to finish while hasted. If the computer can’t register that a player is there in that amount of time how can we and then also react. This is broken and please don’t try to argue other wise.

You know how I know that thieves are OP as “kitten” in w3? Because I got haste backstabbed/triple heartseekered by a thief in WvW and the rendering issue is so bad that the combat log read more than half the attacks as you were hit by “unknown” for 6k damage using backstab. Then subsequently 3 more attacks all registered as being hit by unknown. We have a major problem in this game that is game breaking if over half a chain of attacks hits before the computer even registers where those hits came from.

Grimms.9016:

XD I know right.

lol. seriously make a post with all your current setup ie gear/traits. PLEASE…

Arekai.5698:

A thief complaining about something that isn’t fair in pvp?
Heh.
The irony.
You know what’s more difficult to hit than a small player model? Something that’s in stealth 90% of the time.

I went back to this several several times.. Pointing out that his main complaint to begin with was the difficulty in which it takes him to land his stupid backstab. Other people have brought different points and that is fine. But the main complaint by the Op is that he can’t land his insta gib combo and that makes him a sad panda.

Lets get this bookah hate thread to 200 come on guys just 7 more posts! Seriously though. I can’t believe this discussion is still going. I think a dev would have posted by now if they had any intention of doing something about asura size in pvp.

kfarb.6732:

You didn’t even report the “exploit” correctly. Just stop now, you’re embarrassing yourself.

Exactly how am I supposed to report it then? Hmm??? None of the other options fit and I couldn’t send a message. I could report from here if you like. Its pathetic to use that spot and you know it. I don’t care about the gear throwing business that’s whatever. But this is using an unintended bug to exploit an advantage. The other ones that were exploits have been fixed such as being able to deploy siege from your citadel cliffs even though you have the siege deployment blocked debuff.

Brow.9425:

jportell.2197:

Mag guild tag STRM you have been reported. You were exploiting the bugged invuln spot in SW supply on DB BL. Either take your lickings or get off our map… That stupid fight lasted too long and when your chips were down you just went to your invuln spot where you could still do damage and then get back up there if we were pushing. This is beyond unacceptable.

I’d love it if just one person would link just one dev post saying it’s it bug, or it’s an exploit, or that they’re going to plant a giant rock on that spot in March, or that a single person has ever been disciplined for standing there. What’d you report them for, scamming?

And I’m FITE not STRM, so don’t even.

Scamming since it was the only one that made since as they weren’t selling gold or any of that silly business.

No clue about those guys. And one person using an exploit unintentionally is one thing. An entire guild intentionally doing it is another entirely. Those cliffs were designer to where you couldn’t get back up for a reason. This is a bug and using it is exploiting plain and simple. If I see anyone in DB exploiting/hacking so on I report them as well.

Sovereign.1093:

jportell.2197:

Sovereign.1093:

jportell.2197:

If winner move up loser move down it won’t be the same match every week. It will just be every other week. What will happen is winner will move up a tier get steam rolled, loser move down a tier and steam roll both worlds there with one that is two tiers lower than from where they just came. And the middle man will stay and get steam rolled by the team that just came but not as steam rolled as the team that moved up. So in the end what will happen is winner will move back up to where they were (nothing changed) loser move down to where they were (same thing) and the middle man just stay there. So then the next week you have the exact same match up as the week before.

That is one posibility. Another is, those from lower tiers might actually roll the higher tiers and so on.

Speaking from experience that RARELY happens. Was on a low tier server when I started game (wvw understanding was beyond lacking) and we held our own usually but never won. When in comes this server from a higher tier. Not our server or the other server owned a single camp/tower/keep/castle for the entire match. We had outmanned in our own BL and it was sad. Now that I am nothing but wvw I moved to a higher tier about 3 months ago and those still happen. Albeit not as much but you still have the straight blowouts like the Kain/DB/Mag match up where kain just kinda roflstomped through us all.

Those are past experiences. The present may or may not be the same.

You never know until it actually happens.

Hey if it does. I will welcome the change for the first week. Then after 3 matches let’s see what happens. And tbh at times it was nice to just look at wvw and be like yeah…. I don’t need to go because it really won’ t matter right now.

Sovereign.1093:

jportell.2197:

If winner move up loser move down it won’t be the same match every week. It will just be every other week. What will happen is winner will move up a tier get steam rolled, loser move down a tier and steam roll both worlds there with one that is two tiers lower than from where they just came. And the middle man will stay and get steam rolled by the team that just came but not as steam rolled as the team that moved up. So in the end what will happen is winner will move back up to where they were (nothing changed) loser move down to where they were (same thing) and the middle man just stay there. So then the next week you have the exact same match up as the week before.

That is one posibility. Another is, those from lower tiers might actually roll the higher tiers and so on.

Speaking from experience that RARELY happens. Was on a low tier server when I started game (wvw understanding was beyond lacking) and we held our own usually but never won. When in comes this server from a higher tier. Not our server or the other server owned a single camp/tower/keep/castle for the entire match. We had outmanned in our own BL and it was sad. Now that I am nothing but wvw I moved to a higher tier about 3 months ago and those still happen. Albeit not as much but you still have the straight blowouts like the Kain/DB/Mag match up where kain just kinda roflstomped through us all.

If winner move up loser move down it won’t be the same match every week. It will just be every other week. What will happen is winner will move up a tier get steam rolled, loser move down a tier and steam roll both worlds there with one that is two tiers lower than from where they just came. And the middle man will stay and get steam rolled by the team that just came but not as steam rolled as the team that moved up. So in the end what will happen is winner will move back up to where they were (nothing changed) loser move down to where they were (same thing) and the middle man just stay there. So then the next week you have the exact same match up as the week before.

dreztina.4820:

jportell.2197:

OG refuses to hang around for a fight that has an opponent with half their numbers. With them its “insta-gank” or run. Just my experiences with them. If I am in a small group of 3 then at least 8 OG will roll through and insta kill cuz they can, mean while their entire BL is being owned by another server but they could care less.

Well, ya. That’s the idea. Kill the 3 man and get out of there before the 30 man that is seconds away gets there to help.

Not that you’ll see us with 8 particularly often. Think we currently have one group of five and my duo running separately, and that’s more than usual for this time.

Quick question does that guild run anything besides thieves and d/d eles? I don’t think I have had a fight with them where I saw anything else.

Durzlla.6295:

Yo OP, stop being ignorant!! Stealth IS NOT THE SAME as it is in other MMOs, you stealth a thief and quickly drop an immob and burst on where they were they’ll die, I know, I’ve done it a multitude of times, the only thing stealth PREVENTS is 1) you being able to see them, and 2) moves that require a target (you know, all 6 of them).

On my engi I personally just use an AoE launch, like shield #4 or blowing up a turret so the thieves/mesmers stealth entirely goes to waste due to them cartwheeling through the air…

L2P, stop kittening about stealth, and that boon would make stealth STRONGER than it currently is -_-’

Unless you are a Mesmer fighting a stealth thief in which case half of your skill bar says (you require a target to use that skill!)

Elano.2014:

dreztina.4820:

Really got to hand it to FA. They don’t have much in the way of individual skill, but the sheer size of the zergs they run makes it not even matter. Really tough opponents.

I heard OG could defeat a zerg.

OG refuses to hang around for a fight that has an opponent with half their numbers. With them its “insta-gank” or run. Just my experiences with them. If I am in a small group of 3 then at least 8 OG will roll through and insta kill cuz they can, mean while their entire BL is being owned by another server but they could care less.

Choops.3710:

This is what you’re facing
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/Five-Gauge-s-100nade-Guide/
It’s actually a lot more difficult to land then you think. If you avoid the Magnet Pull/Net Shot, etc this burst becomes infinitely more difficult to land, as it requires you to be inside the enemy’s character model. Retaliation also causes the Engi to burst himself into oblivion, so that’s also a good counter. Best advice I can give you is if you see an engi running straight towards you, it wouldn’t be a horrible idea to keep your distance lol

Told you these complaints were coming choops! Engi so OP needs nerfed now! hahahahah. JK JK… But see anyone can some how get away with calling a class/spec OP.

kodesh.2851:

jportell.2197:

Anyways Imma keep playing sPvP on my Asura not because I know it ticks people like him off but because I like my ninja back flip dodging purple butterfly making asura Mesmer. That is all and have a nice day.

I think you brought this thread around to the real issue here. NERF BUTTERFLIES.

Has anyone wrapped their head around why mesmers have butterflies as an effect? I know this is off topic from the whole asura argument but butterflies main source of deception is from the illusion they create of being bigger than they really are, hence the patterns on the wings and such. Which is why I see what Anet did there. :P

Kasama.8941:

Xavi.6591:

Ruufio.1496:

The Mesmer is OP because:

- Class with one of the highest amount of access to boons and a LOT of boons.

LOL What? Really?

It is true. Play with a staff and Signet of Inspiration, and you can ramp up boons very quickly. Next to that you can get a random boon from traits when you either interrupt, or use a stealth skill (both are grandmaster traits in chaos).

It’s not overpowered, though.

It is far from over powered because we usually don’t pick what boons we get where as a guardian can get all boons at the push of a button. Funny note though a necro just posted in the pvp forum asking about “necros being op?” because he beat a shatter Mesmer 1v1 and the Mesmer accused his win of being to an OP class…. Just something I thought was funny considering the start of this thread.