Guild Wars 2

Bandito Baba.4921:

A lot of people are in WvW because they have to be, e.g. for gift of battle now. They are not going to fight, they are not going to play as anyone else wants them to because they dont want to be there (and they feel let down by Anet for forcing them to be there).

Recognise WvW for what it is, a collection of many types of people present for many reasons.

Just try and have fun!

So basically what you are saying is there are going to be a bunch of players who have no real interest in the game mode taking up a space on the field while we have players who actually want to play it sitting in Queue. So it boils down to having to trade an actual WvW player for someone who is unhelpful due to Anet thinking this is a great idea.

For example, you are in the middle of a basketball game and then these other guys start setting up a knitting club right in the middle of the court and for every person that is in the knitting club, they lose a basketball player from their team. While one side has 20 people in the knitting club and loses 20 players the other team only has 4 in the knitting club. So the team who lost 20 players is left with 15 people to actually play vs 31 people and the WvW players trying to actually play WvW should " just try to have fun?" when they cannot even play the game like that? if one team has 15 players and the other 35 and they are trying to fight each other, how are they supposed to be able to do that well when we have these Gift farmers taking away the spaces of actual players?

This is punishing the WvW players even moreso than the gift farmers here.

Loosmaster.8263:

I’d still like to see a %-# conversion from the polls to get an idea of the overall WvW population.

Would be really nice to have some actual numbers to work with.. though I would also like to have some WvW ranks/kill numbers to go with that ( for all the polls).
1-500, 500-1000, 1000+ Would give a much better understanding of perspective.

Different groups will have different priorities as to what is and what is not important to their preference of game play.

would be nice if at least they left at LA or cities as server based so there was some place for WVW players to interact with their server outside of WvW.

OT: Yea #2 is the only problem I see with what you proposed. PvE should be self sufficient and WvW should be self sufficient no need to torture either type of player by trying to force them to play something they dont enjoy to be able to play what they do enjoy.

Sagramor.7395:

mbhalo.1547:

5. Commanders should have ability to initiate “Call of the Mists” (on a huge cooldown and maybe some token requirements) – A message that pops up for all players on the server, that invites them to be teleported to BL or EB, and if player agrees, gives a buff similar to Volunteer’s Blessing.

Agree on all except #2 similar to above poster.

In regards to #5, before megaservers this was almost a non-issue. You could just have someone pop out of WvW into a city and send the call out. Considering how often this happened pre-megaserver I don’t think whoever pushed through megaservers considered how they’d affect WvW.

In short you are not the first to recommend this.

They did think about it.. but then when people raged about NOT wanting the Megaserver EotM wvw solution, it didn’t work as planned. The original mega server WvW plan was the color based EotM system.

Crise.9401:

lil devils x.6071:

Stop looking for excuses for them not to solve a problem. We have evidence. They can be provided with the account names of a few of those who voted multiple times if they really want them. That doesn’t solve it for the next poll though now does it?

Since you are all about solutions why not propose some… if it was a trivial thing to do they would have addressed it.

While I am not a game developer, I have enough general software development background for both traditional and web applications (as is relevant in these polls), I can tell you, without knowing anything about their specific backend solutions per se, that the only semi reliable way to detect duplicate accounts is based on payment information and even that has a change of false positives (I f.ex. bought two copies of the game but the second copy is not mine… I have also bought gems for that second account and been given cash back as compensation… the account in question belongs to a minor).

Then there is free to play accounts, with those all they can do is quite literally make a best guess and that is simply down to how most of today’s internet operates.

TL;DR: How would you detect duplicates? The best common factor between paid account duplicates is payment information (if they have that) and for free accounts there is no alternative to making a random guess (the accuracy of which decreases the less active some the compared accounts are).

I don’t use the same payment information on all accounts. That isn’t going to be the only way. I offered solutions, Only email the polls ( like they did for the surveys used to create this game and after HoT) to the players they want information from. Make sure all votes on the polls then have a minimum number of kill counts. Kill counts are collected for the achievement and should be easily accessible.

Choppy.4183:

lil devils x.6071:

You realize that I first brought this up on polls that resulted in the same results that I voted for right? That was when I first heard people talking about voting multiple times. Anet was informed of this issue with the first poll and did nothing to correct it then. They should have made proper adjustments before even making the second poll…

Stop looking for excuses for them not to solve a problem. We have evidence. They can be provided with the account names of those who voted multiple times if they really want them.

Then ignore the last paragraph of my previous point and make your counter argument. Speaking as someone who actually had a background in survey design, there’s nothing wrong with Anets approach from a technical standpoint, which is why the other guy’s post was flat out wrong.

Your assertion of significant confounding factors from multiple accounts our pve’ers, so far, appears to be baseless. Your proposed solutions have their own inherent problems, and always seem to involve arbitrary standards.

There is something wrong with the approach if the goal is to keep the players who are impacted by the poll results playing the game. If you want those players to keep playing the game, you have to make sure those players are your target audience. If you do not care if those players leave the game, sure it wouldn’t matter. I am assuming their goal here was to increase player population, increase player satisfaction and increase game longevity but if that isn’t their goal of course it doesn’t matter if they get accurate information on that.

Your assertion that there were not significant factors affecting the results is unfounded as you cannot know how many of these votes were multiple accounts and PvE accounts when neither of these things were prevented and we already have evidence these things in fact did take place. Unless proper measures are taken to prevent this and they make new polls, there is no way to be sure eh?

Hexinx.1872:

Isn’t selling your account a bannable offense? Or has anet given up on that entirely

Many things are bannable that players do and get away with anyways…

That is all games. All someone has to do is say " I moved". The end

Crise.9401:

Hexinx.1872:

I think they should base it on ranks earned in WvW maps , and remove ranks earned in eotm. Then set a low bar threshold say rank 50 or so.

This should eliminate a high cap rank req farmed outside of WvW, allowing access to newer players who have invested a decent amount of time to have their voices heard, or the solo / roamers who collect points and rank much less frequently than say a commander. Includes everyone, gets rid of eotm ranks

Or do something like sending the mail to all players who earned 2 ranks that week

Raising the requirement of ranks per week before sending the mail is the most realistic suggestion so far for the desired results.

As for kill counts and ranks, without ranks earned in eotm (or any more complex criteria that isn’t covered by achievements, I highly doubt they can pull that kind of historical data for very long periods of time. Sure they keep a ton of data as has been apparent from some posts in these very forums but there is no reason to keep historical data you are unlikely to need access to (such as in which map and how much WXP was earned over time per player).

Kill counts are kept for the achievement so should be easy to pull.

Choppy.4183:

lil devils x.6071:

By allowing players to vote as much as they want and who do not even understand how the game mode will affect the different play styles? Mhmmm..
Being a bit more professional or even as the above poster suggested, hire a professional to assist with the polls could help.

You’re assuming an issue without any evidence of the size of its influence. You’re also assuming they didn’t consult a professional, or have one on staff for the polls. Controls for confounding factors are applied both before and after data collection, and their alert system is an example of a pre-collection control. Another control is their high bar in support of a major change in order for it to occur.

The fact that this latest poll was such a blowout completely decimates your argument here. Not only would this pool of “illegitimate votes” from multiple account holders and people who don’t meet your standard of sufficient expertise have to be between 50% and 100% the size of “legitimate votes” in your eyes, they’d have to somehow, miraculously, all vote the same way.

The methodology is absolutely in line with standard survey practice. Accept the evidence that most Wvw players don’t agree with what you wanted, stop looking for ways to gerrymander the results you want, and move on.

You realize that I first brought this up on polls that resulted in the same results that I voted for right? That was when I first heard people talking about voting multiple times. Anet was informed of this issue with the first poll and did nothing to correct it then. They should have made proper adjustments before even making the second poll…

Stop looking for excuses for them not to solve a problem. We have evidence. They can be provided with the account names of a few of those who voted multiple times if they really want them. That doesn’t solve it for the next poll though now does it? You should understand this has been discussed here regardless of poll outcome.

Liston.9708:

why would anyone assume its the pve players with 20 accounts on different servers and not the wvw players with the 20 accounts? there is no ‘pve server’ and wasn’t ‘pve servers’ when the 10$ accounts came out. if you were pve why create another account other than daily reward login?

the more likely scenario is the wvw player with 20 accounts on 20 servers since they had a reason to do this. Hence the ballot box stuffing more likely a wvw player not pve player.

most likely scenario is that the amount of people voting more than 2-3 times is negligible…

WvW players have multiple accounts, not PvE players. If you are making polls that are supposed to reflect the overall WvW community and not those who do not play the game mode or not just a few players onions ( as the case with multiple votes from the same individuals), you send out invites to the target audience ( as they did for the surveys used to create the game and for the HoT survey feedback) and place restrictions on voting to prevent the same players from voting repeatedly.

PvE players and Multiple accounts are two serrate issues that both impact the polls due to them not being filtered at all. More needs to be done to ensure:
1 WvW player 1= 1 WvW Player Vote

A player that comes in to mine nodes isn’t going to have a clue if all classes are PvP zone playable on the terrain of the map or not.

Choppy.4183:

lil devils x.6071:

Cindas.6149:

None of the WvW surveys have adhered to any standard methodology. If you want to simply ask seemingly random questions and have nearly random results, then continue with the current survey formats. However, if you want anything meaningful returned, you should hire a professional.

ref: Survey Methodology – Reliability and Validity
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survey_methodology

Yes, and when someone brings this up .. people want to act like it isn’t a problem. AS I have been saying, from the first poll on here, this is a mess. ( I said that on polls that were decided in favor of what I wanted them to) The way these polls are being done means they should not be used for any type of data gathering or analysis because they are doing nothing to ensure the data gathered is accurate or going to be beneficial to the game.

Except he’s completely wrong. Making a claim and then posting a link that doesn’t even support that claim is not a convincing argument.

Anet’s approach is well in line with standard survey methodology.

By allowing players to vote as much as they want and who do not even understand how the game mode will affect the different play styles? Mhmmm..
Being a bit more professional or even as the above poster suggested, hire a professional to assist with the polls could help.

Xenesis.6389:

lil devils x.6071:

Yea, that was why I was thinking kill count might be a better measure.

Obsidian… Sanctum… Kill… Farm…

I don’t know anyone that has been in the OS kill farm that didn’t play WvW before making it that far, so that is not as bad. The alternative is to let people vote as many times as they like or think WvW exists as a “nice place to farm nodes”. I will take the kill farm over the latter.

Sylvyn.4750:

lil devils x.6071:

Sylvyn.4750:

Anet should do what Blizzard used to, free one-way transfers from certain high-pop servers to certain low-pop servers until the desired population counts were reached, and lock paid transfers back to the high-pop servers for a time.

Why would someone transfer their account from a locked server when many people on locked servers already have alt accounts on lower populated servers? Many T1 guilds already have offers from lower tiers to have paid transfers. Not sure why anything thinks players would remove more valuable accounts to make their account lose value.

What happens when you lock top servers is the accounts on those servers become valuable and people sell them to anyone who wants to transfer there… Some accounts I have seen sell on other games for more than $5,000.

People don’t leave locked servers often due to knowing they can’t just go back if they are not having fun elsewhere.

I suppose too the dynamics are different with WoW and having a monthly subscription versus what we have in GW2. If you want an alt account in WoW, you’re going to have to pay monthly for it as well as your main account.

Yes, and with no sub players can come back and leave as they wish without having to “use up their days left” or worry about how many accounts they have to pay for every month. Players should understand that even on WoW many players STILL had multiple accounts they were willing to pay subs for every month, on here it is a million times worse.

Loosmaster.8263:

Anet has attempted to fix the issue by linking servers and due to human nature it has just perpetuated the problem.

You want it fixed?

D E S T A C K and SPREAD OUT!!! otherwise kitten and quit complaining…

The opposite is what is happening though. The servers are consolidating, not spreading out. Spread out = spend more time, money and resources to be able to play WvW and not have many people there to help you out. There are not enough players in the game to provide enough population to remain competitive on all servers currently, So people huddle up together to even have enough resources and players to play with and against.

Cindas.6149:

None of the WvW surveys have adhered to any standard methodology. If you want to simply ask seemingly random questions and have nearly random results, then continue with the current survey formats. However, if you want anything meaningful returned, you should hire a professional.

ref: Survey Methodology – Reliability and Validity
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survey_methodology

Yes, and when someone brings this up .. people want to act like it isn’t a problem. AS I have been saying, from the first poll on here, this is a mess. ( I said that on polls that were decided in favor of what I wanted them to) The way these polls are being done means they should not be used for any type of data gathering or analysis because they are doing nothing to ensure the data gathered is accurate or going to be beneficial to the game.

ArchonWing.9480:

And then i remember that time someone achieved Diamond Legend in EOTM and everyone gave him crap for it….

Easy to suddenly emphasize the importance of rank when it’s convenient, right?

Honestly, what is a good rank for 4 years of play? We didn’t have rank for the 1st year so that didn’t get counted. But then again, rank 1000 is a paltry rank for consistent play…. if you’re a zergling. Hmmph. Hit more doors? I know people that show up regularly that have an unusually low rank because they suck at farming wxp. Doesn’t mean they suck at WvW though.

Yea, that was why I was thinking kill count might be a better measure. When I know numerous players who have accounts on all servers, and numerous more who have accounts on 5 or more servers and hear people saying " I voted 6 times".. there has to be some way we can reduce that in addition to making sure players who have come into WvW more than just do a daily or farm some nodes have an impact on the game mode. To some people they would be happy taking out PvP from WvW all together… That isn’t exactly fair to those who want to actually play the game mode.

Baratta.1083:

Transfers are what started the death of WvW in the first place. Stacking servers to blob to the top.

The alternative of players transferring when they are unhappy is to just leave when they are unhappy. Either transfer or leave the game. Transferring just ensures he game lasts longer, leaving means the game dies faster. The one thing players don’t do is continue playing where they are unhappy.

Entenkommando.5208:

So basically you are saying because we poor souls who played since beta haven’t been heard for 4 years it is unfair to listen to anyone with less than 4 years of experience?

Not at all, I said all WvW players past and PRESENT over a certain rank( preferably kill count would be an even better idea). Should players be able to vote with all 24 of their accounts? NO. Players who only think WvW is another stop to do dailies and farm nodes? NO. Players who have never fought another player in WvW? No…

Emailing surveys only to WvW players treats past players who never received a response and present players equally and will give them a better idea of how to best improve the game mode to both keep and grow the population and improve player satisfaction. Should the players that were here at Beta be worth any less? Of course not. Simply because players were ignored while WvW was neglected is not a reason to exclude them.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

A suggestion to future WvW surveys – Limit responses to players with a minimum WvW rank. Something like a threshold of Rank 1000. It’s low enough that a casual WvWer would be able to achieve in the last 3 years of playing, but high enough to sort out those who don’t play WvW enough to have a say.

Hi, I’m one of those casual WvWers. I’d probably only put in around 15-30 hours a week when I’m feeling like WvW’ing. No, not much, but that’s still 2+ hours a day on average.

I am still in the Bronze rank titles. That means, yes, less than 500. Despite playing from headstart – now, I didn’t play WvW from the headstart, but I’m fairly sure I’ve been casually playing for a long time now with no more breaks than I would for the game in general.

So by your argument, I should be incapable of voting.

By your argument, new players should be incapable of voting.

In fact, by your argument, everyone I know would be incapable of voting, even those with 800+ rank.

I disagree.

lil devils x.6071:

So this means:
1) Past and present WvW players over a certain rank were not notified via email. If players were unable to log into the game this week for whatever reason ( for example: the hospital I have been at most of the time has GW2 blocked) they do not know the poll is happening at all.

2)There is no restriction on the poll itself to limit voting of non WvW players or multiple accounts.

3) WvW rank 10 would never be high enough to impact multiple accounts. Rank 1000 would be a much more appropriate measure.

1) Why would people who aren’t playing the game be notified about the game’s progress? If they’re not playing but are active in the community, they’d find out via forum or reddit.

3) I think 1000 is too high, however. It would keep casual WvW’ers out.

I could agree on 100, or 200 even, though. I would argue that you need to have reached Bronze rank titles to vote – which, if wiki is right, is 150.

Ovalkvadratcylinder.9365:

W never got to vote on that. Just that the reward tracks were here to stay.
What they do with the reward tracks is up to Anet, atleast right now.

We were told the gift of battle would be turned to only reward track when the WvW reward tracks exited beta.

There was a poll asking if the WvW reward tracks were ready to exit beta.

1) For years GW dedicated players who have been here from the beginning came to Anet over and over and over and let their concerns be known for years and had zero response. No one responded, answered anything at all. Their concerns fell on deaf ears and even though these dedicated players who filled out the surveys used to create this game, promoted the game in gaming communities and preordered it and have been with Anet from the beginning. They sadly gave up and left after getting no response.

Reaching out to those players to let them know things have changed and include them in the feedback is how you actually improve the game to increase the overall player base. The goal is to increase game interest and population, increase player satisfaction, and increase game longevity. You do not accomplish that by alienating your dedicated player base and not even finding out why. You do that by growing your playerbase and keeping your current player base happy. You do not have to make decisions to alienate anyone. The goal should be to make decisions that make everyone happy and that can be accomplished by thinking through decisions much better and including more informed feedback.

If you take feedback on an area that the player doesn’t understand well, you are not going to get an informed enough point of view to help make the current players happy that play the different play styles in the game mode. Usually players who have been around a long time understand how each of these things affect the different play styles and not just one way. You have attackers, defenders, roamers, scouts, havoc, strategist, zerglings, and duelers all in one zone. Someone who just comes in to do dailies isn’t going to understand how all these different players play and what will affect how they play, what is needed for them to be able to play at all. Making not well thought out decisions for the different players in this mode means that it can make any of these playstyles unplayable all together and you are going to have angry players at that point.
The goal is to grow the population, not reduce it.

3) Yes, 1000 is a bit high. 100 would still not be enough to keep out many multiple accounts though. Maybe 500 would be more reasonable.

Xenesis.6389:

lil devils x.6071:

Why would someone transfer their account from a locked server when many people on locked servers already have alt accounts on lower populated servers? Many T1 guilds already have offers from lower tiers to have paid transfers. Not sure why anything thinks players would remove more valuable accounts to make their account lose value.

What happens when you lock top servers is the accounts on those servers become valuable and people sell them to anyone who wants to transfer there… Some accounts I have seen sell on other games for more than $5,000.

People don’t leave locked servers often due to knowing they can’t just go back if they are not having fun elsewhere.

(scratches head)

Lets not offer free transfers cause people won’t move due to preserving the account sell value……

(rubs forehead)

Checking the nearest sales site I see 19 accounts for sale, 16 of them under 500, 9 of them under 100.

(pulls earlobe)

Even if the free transfers manages to pull 20-50 people off a loaded server to the bottom servers it would be a win, would be like pulling 1 queue line off a server.

While players have alts, sometimes it’s a pain having to give time to those other accounts, releveling, regearing, building masteries again. I did that for a while on an alt account, I got sick of not having all my masteries and fully geared characters, I just moved my main afterwards. There would be players willing to move I’m sure, it doesn’t have to be more than a 100 players moving to be worthwhile to do.

You can offer them, but it won’t solve the problem or extend the games longevity. It is too little too late really. In reality, the low pop servers should not even be open in WvW anymore. That was why I suggested just making current servers PvE servers and instead create new WvW servers you join in addition so you can make as many or as few WvW servers as you need when you need them without disturbing the current mixed PvE/ WvW communities that have much time and money invested in their servers.

Sylvyn.4750:

Anet should do what Blizzard used to, free one-way transfers from certain high-pop servers to certain low-pop servers until the desired population counts were reached, and lock paid transfers back to the high-pop servers for a time.

Why would someone transfer their account from a locked server when many people on locked servers already have alt accounts on lower populated servers? Many T1 guilds already have offers from lower tiers to have paid transfers. Not sure why anything thinks players would remove more valuable accounts to make their account lose value.

What happens when you lock top servers is the accounts on those servers become valuable and people sell them to anyone who wants to transfer there… Some accounts I have seen sell on other games for more than $5,000.

People don’t leave locked servers often due to knowing they can’t just go back if they are not having fun elsewhere.

msalakka.4653:

1 hour per week? Rank 10? So in other words, these polls are a joke.

This caters to karmatrain zombies, nothing more. DBL is a lot easier for brainless karmatraining, which got already easier and more profitable. I am seeing a continuing degradation of skill among the increasing mass of brainless PvErs who follow a tag around for reward spam. Of course they will vote for DBLs to return since those are the maps they first experienced and karmatraining is not as easy on the Alpines since these maps actually get upgraded and defended. Even just 2 guys can hold off many times their number at Lake because they can see all 3 walls from one spot, so you can’t simply attack a wall or gate and send a guy or two to cata a wall on another side. Sparkplug has, what, 5 walls?

Not everyone who prefers the DBL is a blob mouthbreather, obviously. However the problem is that the results now are skewed by a large number of votes by people who will ditch this game mode the minute something with easier, less-effort-required means of acquiring loot and reward track progress comes along. What you are then left with are only the committed WvW players who are in it for the competitive play, and far too many of those would rather leave WvW than play on the DBL.

When my server got a free transfer for a tournament season, we got a massive influx of PvErs who just wanted to be, for free, on a server that would win its league. We breezed through those boring matches with an overpowering 24/7 force of skillspammers who then promptly vacated the game mode once the tournament was over. That left us in a tier higher than we in reality were built for and we kept getting our teeth kicked in for weeks before Glicko adjusted.

Of course every clown that gets this email will vote on it without the least bit of consideration for the longevity of the game mode.

But c’est la vie. When you refuse to learn from your mistakes, you’ll just continue repeating them.

They aren’t restricted to rank 10 to vote in the poll, you don’t even have to be rank 10…that was just to trigger the message telling you there was a poll in the game. If you already know there is a poll, you could vote on any of your accounts. Even lvl 1 could vote…

CrimeMaker.8612:

Dude seriously though they should just do a kaboom and restart the whole server kitten again or just kittening introduc factions and call it a kittening day right now with the whole tier server bs game modes gonna keep dying

I agree, though not nuke the servers just create new WvW servers in addition leaving the current ones in tact as PvE servers as to try and keep most happy and not make people rage that just prepaid their TS for a year. Allowing them to be able to create as many or as few as they need to mix the matchups up periodically.

Choppy.4183:

Yeah, I just don’t agree. First, while neither of us had the numbers of total votes or votes from the same person with multiple accounts, my expectation is the total votes is high enough to dwarf the number of people trying to use multiple accounts. Second, I’ve been playing this game long enough to know that for every Wvw veteran with a good, rational idea, you have another with a totally irrational one. Same goes with new players, so no, I don’t buy the “experience argument”.

Anet also wouldn’t poll is about things that would “affect siege placement”. They’re interested in long term viability and direction, and that means taxing the people who will our might play wvw, not just the crusty old kittens who’ve been playing long enough to argue about whether the quaggans should come back or not….

This was a poll that affects siege placement. This was a poll about objectives that can be glitched into. This was a poll about skills not being able to be used in zones. This was a poll about wanting new maps. This was a poll about Strategic objective placement.
That IS the issue being discussed. What was the total number of votes? Sure there may be more players just doing dailies in WvW, but that does not mean they understood what was affected by this.

See since they cannot fix the topography as long as the map is in the live game, they would have to send the DBL back to beta to solve those problems. Since the map is going to stay in the live game, this was a vote for many problems to never be fixed at all. They told us that they would not give us new maps if we didn’t accept the DBL “as is” so people who hated the DBL had to vote for it to get the new maps they were waiting on Alpine to receive.

EDIT: I also would like to say, yes 1000 may be a bit high, 500 sounds much more reasonable. 10 is a joke.

Choppy.4183:

Or ranks earned via roaming vs blobbing… roaming ranks come with a lot more time in game than blobbing.

But let’s be real… The impact of people with multiple accounts, or the importance of focusing on just “experienced” players is almost nihl. The latter in particular, since it’s the people who will play that are important, not the people who did play.

People were already saying they voted 6 times on these polls… I think you greatly underestimate the number of WvW player multiple accounts that currently exist in the game . I know players who made accounts for every single server, both NA and EU so that if they ever needed them they would have them. Everyone was talking about all the accounts they were buying when they went on sale for $10 in the map TS channels that day and many guilds were having players make sure they made accounts for specific servers that they wanted to make sure all their members bought one for so they could play as a guild on multiple servers at the time. People who missed that were not aware I guess of how wide scale this actually was.

In addition, someone who logs into WvW just to do dailies isn’t going to understand whether or not all classes skills work in all zones, the strategic value of objective placement and how it interacts with other objectives, how many ways an objective can be attacked, how each class can be played on a map, what glitches and bugs need to be repaired so you cannot glitch into keeps, where the mesmer hiding spots are, or even how to refresh siege. How can they vote on these things when they have no understanding of them or how they work or what they even need to work?

It isn’t a matter of trying to exclude people, it is just trying to make sure those who are going to be affecting these things actually understand them. Someone who does not understand the use of strategic building placement, for example, should not be voting on things that affect that.

I am sure those who like to raid dungeons wouldn’t want me to go over there and vote on their dungeon raid builds as well considering I do not do that. I personally would hope they would exclude me from voting in PvE raiding polls since I really shouldn’t be sticking my nose in to things I do not understand.

These polls, just like the surveys they used to create this game should be done by Invite only . In this case those players who have put in enough time to playing the game mode that they actually understand what it is they are voting on.

DeWolfe.2174:

Skynet.7201:

McKenna Berdrow.2759:

Hey guys, since I’m seeing this topic pop up a lot, I wanted to step in and clear up some misconceptions.

1. Nearly every player that voted, plays WvW at least somewhat regularly.

2. Whether they play 1 hour a week, or dozens of hours a week, the breakdown between people who voted ‘Yes’ or ‘No’ remains very constant around the 65/35 split.

3. The in-game poll notification mail is only sent to players who are actively playing WvW. They must be at least rank 10, and have ranked up while the poll was running.

One hour a week???!!! O.O

Probably just folks grabbing easy WvW dailies and then using us for gathering the synthesizers

That is why I think they really have to determine server population by total hours played and when they are played , not just numbers of players. In addition, I do not think rank should play a factor simply because you can have a server that queues multiple maps but actually makes sure they lose, and you can have people outnumbered that actually try to win. The rank should not be a factor, but rather number of hours played and when they play.

Currently they match up servers with no maps queued during NA prime with a server with all maps queued during NA prime, and neither server can gain population to correct their deficiencies due to how the population is determined.

Nusku.3941:

wow a lot more responses than i expected; to clear things up I never thought of population imbalance as being the culprit of the reason wvw is dying. I just thought that the addition of fortified keeps and players wanting to stay on them for long periods of time is the thing thats killing it. Staying focused on keeping a tower than defeating the enemy is not warlike enough. If i wanted to only destroy structures over a period of time I would have just played an RTS game.

of course population issues such as not having enough players is definitely a factor in how wvw goes, but im sure moving to another server thats more populated fixes that. Sorry for my bad grammar Im in a train and typing on my tablet is a chore

What you have to understand is there is NO other server anywhere near as populated as BG that is the issue. No one comes even remotely close enough. The tiers are all imbalanced because they do not have comparable populations at all.

They need to take into consideration how many hours are played every week by players, not just the number of players and when they actually play to really be able to balance WvW population. They should gauge population by hours played and when, and really rank/ standing shouldn’t be a part of it at all simply because some servers can queue multiple maps and make sure they try NOT to win and some servers can be outnumbered and still win a week. Their actual rank has more to do with wanting to win not how many people are playing.

Loosmaster.8263:

Hesacon.8735:

Loosmaster.8263:

Hesacon.8735:

What if all of mag moved to SoS?

You could say the opposite but Mag is full.

Exactly. See you guys soon when you transfer to SoS.

I’m on DR and the only way I’ll transfer is if Anet makes it free, lol.

So we need to start a " Free Father Fund"? XD

Considering they took away everything Small guilds had already earned, they should at least give them a way to earn some of it back. The changes to the guild upgrade system were devastating to small guilds who had already earned these things. Many left the game over that after they worked hard for what they had. I see no reason to place additional requirements just to make things harder on them than it already is. Of course all of these things a re easier with more numbers, they are going to have a hard enough time as it is trying to do what larger guilds do easily so why make it harder for them?

Hesacon.8735:

jamesdolla.3954:

Scamp.5296:

Exciton.8942:

Mag should be bumped into Tier 1 to play against TC and BG. I don’t understand how those WvW veterans found it fun to stack onto a T3 server to just stomp lesser opponent week after week.

Mag would get so overrun by BG and TC. I hear what you are saying, though.

We on maguuma would love that type of match up m8. Don’t care about ppt just want the non stop action.

You say this, but on EBG last night mag was camping the SoS hill the entire night and firing trebs/cows at anything that moved off the hill. If you want a fight, railroading people so they don’t want to play is not going to work in your favor.

That said, there was some pretty epic battles between SoS and maguuma last night over bay on SoS BL. Those were enjoyable, I would participate in them again.

Yes, Was good scrapping over Bay! until everyone went to sleep.. yea, Mag goes to bed too early to move up yet. Fights are great but no where near enough players or coverage on Mag yet to even think about it until that changes. No OCX doesn’t get you far. Will have to have crew to hold everything overnight to do that. Hopefully Mag can get paired with an OCX server and then would be beast! XD

insanemaniac.2456:

lil devils x.6071:

insanemaniac.2456:

lil devils x.6071:

insanemaniac.2456:

shrek.1046:

insanemaniac.2456:

Loosmaster.8263:

insanemaniac.2456:

Loosmaster.8263:

insanemaniac.2456:

lil devils x.6071:

Crise.9401:

Loosmaster.8263:

We’re talking about the map structure itself.

There isn’t going to be any intrusive work done… if I recall correctly their methodology for DBL was to make low cost changes with big impact. This was justified by “because it is a live game”.

I’d wager that if we want a larger overhaul, which takes more than a trivial amount of dev time, it will not happen before bulk of the priority changes we voted are well underway, released or close to being released. Even then if they stick to their mantra it would not happen unless there was a poll and it was voted for. Structural overhaul of the map certainly qualifies as a major change.

So, until such a time the kind of changes we will likely see are the sort of stuff we have already seen or already know about.

THAT was why players wanted it to go back to Beta. The topography had to be made playable for all classes in all zones and that isn’t going to happen if it stays in the live game. Now it isn’t going to go back to beta because that was never an option to actually make the map playable for a PvP zone for all classes…

what classes arent playable cuz of topography?

I know Rev CoR doesn’t work on kitten near any unlevel ground. Unless that’s been fixed within the last couple of months.

sounds like something that the wvw team doesnt need to be held responsible for. specifically, that is the realm of the balance team. and they seem more interested in pvp, where this is easily also an issue.

time to make the hitbox fully 3d.

So, you’re saying everyone involved in making the DBL and all 4 HoT maps and creating a new class was oblivious to this?

yeah prolly. balance isnt their department.

maybe the proper people with the knowledge or connections dont even play rev in a zerg. maybe it works on the dev client. maybe its been addressed for the next quarterly update but theyre tightlipped as usual, especially if its a thing on the known issue tracker. maybe not.

I would have thought it was the fault of both, class designers for making aoe abilities that don;t work when the topography changes and map designers for not designing maps in accordance with the was the combat engine works. The PvE maps must have similar issues due to their complex topography.

its the fault of whoever designed the skill’kittenbox. they didnt take topography into account, they made the hit box 2d, and they made it end at walls (good) OR when the terrain at a certain elevation ends (bad). had they made it a rectangular prism instead of a line, it could be more resilient, but would prolly need some upgrade in tech on the back end to actually show the ground animations properly.

the map designers have nothing to do with that, they are making the world prettier and more interesting by adding slopes or different levels to play on and doing their jobs exceedingly well, but prolly need to converse with hardcore wvw players and or the wvw dev team about how to incorporate the elements that make a map fun to fight other players on instead of just to wander around and look at.

That is a problem with how they are designing the maps then. When designing a map for a PvP game mode, they need to think about how every inch of that map works to benefit each of the classes play styles and skills to enhance the player experience and game play. That is how you make a great map rather than just a “meh” map. The " pretty skin" is the after thought for enhancing game play for a PvP game mode. They should bring in the " pretty skin team" after they already have the topography and objectives of the map designed to benefit the game play. The aesthetics should only be added as long as they do not interfere with game play in any way. Otherwise they are designing the map backwards.

it really isnt a map design problem.

look at forest of niflhel, it has ramps and is still a map used in all pvp tournaments.

its an issue with designing hitboxes and how they interact with terrain.

Yea.. I am not a fan of that map either, but let’s be honest here, most of the other maps are just worse. You don’t compare maps on this game, you compare maps of this game to other games that design maps in different ways.

It just isn’t about hit boxes either, it is about designing the map around the player experience. from the point they log in, every inch of it until they log out. Keeping players engaged in Nonstop PvP action the entire time they are on it was not even a thought.

dont mix your issues. a certain class being unplayable cuz of bad hitbox design is a different issue from a lack of wvw player / wvw dev input on map design and they are entirely unrelated.

No they are definitely related. If the map was actually designed with how all classes played on that map as the focus and how the different areas and objectives were designed to enhanced every class’s skills and abilities in the game there wouldn’t be these issues. How " pretty" a map is in a PvP zone should be the afterthought. The primary focus should have been the player experience out of spawn until the player leaves that map. The map is supposed to be designed to keep players engaged in nonstop PvP action the entire time they are on it every class, every skill. You worry about the skin after that is taken care of, and ONLY if it doesn’t interfere with game play. You don’t put even a tree there if it is going to block skill usage. Pretty <Playable.

If every class was tested properly on the map to enhance their player experience they would have known this already.

A map should start focused on the player experience straight out of spawn, 3 seconds hit an objective, why do you want to fight over that objective? ( have to have a good reason to want to fight over objectives, both personal and for the team) How does that objective increase game play of each class in the game? How does each classes skills work to their benefit in that zone? What strategic value does that objective have to other objectives? Can the objective be attacked from multiple directions in numerous ways to increase strategic options? Is there enough space to fight in the area for all types of combat? 3 seconds.. next objective.. rinse and repeat. The DBL was the opposite of that. The game play and player experience was an after thought when it is the skin that should be the afterthought.

If they had designed it that way from the beginning, there would not be a hit box problem.

Sarrs.4831:

lil devils x.6071:

Anecdote = witness testimony. Submissible in a court of law so I would think appropriate for a gaming forum.

Doesn’t change that it isn’t data. If it were a court of law this’d be like you presenting an eyewitness when an autopsy was being asked for. Don’t want anecdotes. Want data. Like the data we have in the poll!

lil devils x.6071:

Graphs that were posted by members of this forum on this forum months ago showing population of DBL and population of ABL = data.

Let me guess: Your graphs compare a long stretch of time of DBL, either from HoT release to the last week of DBL, or several months prior to the last week of DBL, and only a week or two of ABL. Manipulating statistics to prove what you want them to prove is easy. There’s a reason “lies, kitten lies and statistics” exists as a phrase.

At the end of the day I’m not sure why I’m responding. The poll’s already produced a clear answer; most people either want DBL, or they care enough about new map development that they can live with it. See you in the next thread.

Cecilia.5179:

3. The oasis is a waste of space. Stonemist is a good central objective. The ruins are bad. A lake is bad. Aetherblades are bad! Some brainstorming needs to he done for central objectives in the bls.

Honestly, I thought the superlaser was fine for a central objective. Hopefully we can see it fixed by the time they add DBL back.

The guy has been posting graphs on here periodically or a looong time… and not just about population. They are not my graphs , but way to go all conspiracy theory there guy. “Anecdote” about receiving a notice? Yea.. okay I am sure you have kept all your notices you have received as " evidence" of this conspiracy against the DBL. LMAO

LeaveMeDead.8937:

As a pve player this makes me very mad considering the issue that came up about Gift of Battles and the wvw reward track. So yes wvw player made a decision about something I NEED for pve. That should have been sent out to pve players as well. I am ok with polls that only focus on wvw issue, but once it effect all parts of the game, more needs to be done.

If it were up to me, you could walk to a guy in LA and get it with a Universal currency and never have to step foot in WvW if you didn’t want to. I think many WvW players would like to only be able to play WvW to get what they need and PvE players should be able to access everything they need from PvE as well. There is no point in trying to torture people who obviously do not like the other game modes just to be able to have fun the way they like to.

shrek.1046:

lil devils x.6071:

Not exactly, even when they were not winning they weren’t spreading out either.

Because they weren’t playing or just playing PvE, BG has always had this PvX population that would only play WvW when it was worth it.

Yes, BG always has had a PvX population, but they don’t actually play much WvW. They are weekend warriors, then the rest of the week they didn’t play WvW.

It may have something to do with the people I know who transferred there because there was no organization on their server as well.. People have been banging on their door to get in for quite some time, and not because they were " winning". LOL

shrek.1046:

fishball.7204:

It’s pretty easy to hate on BG and #stackedgate but lets face it if BG does ‘die’ the people will be quitting and not spreading out to balance tiers which we all know is never gonna happen.

BG and to a degree TC are the last T1 servers with actual players around the clock (mostly) and rather than cheering on for BG to destack/die players should be more concerned with how the other servers don’t have enough coverage to match BG.

That won’t change without more drastic action, so BG will remain stacked, although we will see what happens when the link is changed. I would actually hope BG doesn’t get linked and 1 set of servers is 3 servers.

Its not just players leaving BG and the game which is a potential problem its players leaving any server including those from TC and YB who are sick of BG. Its why I find the attitude of those who want servers to die (as is frequently seen on the salt forum) so shortsighted, servers die people will leave the game leaving it in a worse state.

lil devils x.6071:

The reason they wont spread out is due to the environments on many of the other servers. Some are outright toxic.

The reason they won’t spread out is that they are winning pure and simple.

Not exactly, even when they were not winning they weren’t spreading out either. They dropped to T2 at one point if you don’t remember. The current state was caused by people migrating there and away from other environments. They could have moved to JQ at the time we were winning. JQ didn’t get a mass migration when we were winning. We actually chose to stop winning and stood down as was stated in forums in advance.

I think many people whining about players leaving their server need to take a good hard look at what on their servers that made people leave. They may not be leaving for why you “think” they are. Why would we leave a winning server to a non stacked server eh?

Liston.9708:

lil devils x.6071:

synergy.5809:

McKenna Berdrow.2759:

Hey guys, since I’m seeing this topic pop up a lot, I wanted to step in and clear up some misconceptions.

1. Nearly every player that voted, plays WvW at least somewhat regularly.

2. Whether they play 1 hour a week, or dozens of hours a week, the breakdown between people who voted ‘Yes’ or ‘No’ remains very constant around the 65/35 split.

3. The in-game poll notification mail is only sent to players who are actively playing WvW. They must be at least rank 10, and have ranked up while the poll was running.

i never got an ingame mail

Me either.

pretty sure you don’t if you have already voted. the only mail i’ve ever got was when I hadn’t already voted.

It was up for a couple of days before I voted.

Xenesis.6389:

Not every server is like that, but yes any that have a large number of “fight guilds” tend to turn into that, which eventually was a problem on SoS.

In any case, if BG doesn’t get smaller I doubt the situation will get better, unless the devs relink TC YB JQ or DB to be big enough to take BG on, which I doubt so enjoy the queues and continue to steamrolling opponents.

I suggested a JQ/MAG/IOJ link.. that would do the trick. XD

I respect BG. I want to fight BG because it is challenging and fun.

Swagger.1459:

lil devils x.6071:

Swagger.1459:

lil devils x.6071:

Swagger.1459:

lil devils x.6071:

briggah.7910:

long story short. it is not always fun to steam roll the enemies and it is not much fun getting steam rolled. players will get bored of each of these but the same results will happen. players will move on and find something else to do with their time.

There is more to it than that though. Players flocked to one server due to not being able to find that level of coordination and server unity elsewhere. That is actually due to this being a server vs server game mode since players cannot choose who is on their team with them. If WvW were GvGvG instead, guilds could kick people who were not cooperating, trolling, or helping on the server and ensure everyone on server contributes. That doesn’t happen, so their only alternative to not play with people creating a toxic environment is to leave. BG’s popularity was due to not being able to find that level of cooperation anywhere else and the sheer numbers of players looking for it.

“Coordination” aka “the masses want the best chances to win”…

What’s toxic is that wvw was left in this underdeveloped and unbalanced state for a long time. That’s the devs responsibility, not the players fault.

No actual coordination. AKA :

• Players willing to work with one another and help one another towards common goals not bicker and troll one another trying to prevent people from playing the game mode.

• Many players and guilds willing to contribute to resources needed to play. ( Siege, banners, food, utilities, guild upgrades/ buffs)

• Guilds working together and agreeing which maps to go to and when.

• Good scouts and guilds willing to respond to scouting calls.

• roamers, havoc and zergs working together to accomplish common goals.

Yes, these efforts increase your ability to win, however, it is not due necessarily to “outnumbering” but in willingness to work and play as a team. BG is well known for their ability to coordinate, even when they were not running great numbers. That reputation is why they grew as much as they did.

Yeah, stack to win.

Blame the devs for all wvw complaints please. Players are just playing through this mess and have some fun.

Um no, coordination isn’t necessarily related to player numbers or stacking. Wanting to be on servers where players are willing to help and work together =\= stacking to win. In BG’s case they were victim to lack of other servers being able to coordinate as well as they did. I was on JQ, I saw how well BG was able to coordinate their efforts and they deserve props for that, even when their numbers dropped and they were dropping to T2. That is also why when JQ had “coordination issues” some JQ players went to BG for that very reason.

Coordination allows you to hold your own even when massively outnumbered. BG often did that even when their PvE Blobs were in hibernation. They get credit where Credit is due. ( I don’t play on BG btw) My perspective is from one gained from fighting against them for a long time.

Sure, all servers have their talented groups. You may spin doctor if you wish my friend, but most players want the best chances to win so let’s not confuse that with anything else.

I’m honestly not going to drag out a debate with anyone who views using the “tools” coded into the game as “toxic” and that sees playing within rule sets is somehow wrong…

I am not confusing that, the reason we left JQ was due to server cooperation. We were assured by the people where we were going that they had numerous guilds willing to work with us is why we moved. The ONLY reason we would not go to BG is they were stacked. We are not the only guild looking for the same thing. Just not all guilds are given offers like we were nor have the same opportunities, so they go where it is guaranteed.

If the " tools" coded into the game try to prevent PvP in a PvP game mode, those coming to the PvP game mode for PvP game play of course are going to view those as toxic.

synergy.5809:

McKenna Berdrow.2759:

Hey guys, since I’m seeing this topic pop up a lot, I wanted to step in and clear up some misconceptions.

1. Nearly every player that voted, plays WvW at least somewhat regularly.

2. Whether they play 1 hour a week, or dozens of hours a week, the breakdown between people who voted ‘Yes’ or ‘No’ remains very constant around the 65/35 split.

3. The in-game poll notification mail is only sent to players who are actively playing WvW. They must be at least rank 10, and have ranked up while the poll was running.

i never got an ingame mail

Me either.

insanemaniac.2456:

lil devils x.6071:

insanemaniac.2456:

shrek.1046:

insanemaniac.2456:

Loosmaster.8263:

insanemaniac.2456:

Loosmaster.8263:

insanemaniac.2456:

lil devils x.6071:

Crise.9401:

Loosmaster.8263:

We’re talking about the map structure itself.

There isn’t going to be any intrusive work done… if I recall correctly their methodology for DBL was to make low cost changes with big impact. This was justified by “because it is a live game”.

I’d wager that if we want a larger overhaul, which takes more than a trivial amount of dev time, it will not happen before bulk of the priority changes we voted are well underway, released or close to being released. Even then if they stick to their mantra it would not happen unless there was a poll and it was voted for. Structural overhaul of the map certainly qualifies as a major change.

So, until such a time the kind of changes we will likely see are the sort of stuff we have already seen or already know about.

THAT was why players wanted it to go back to Beta. The topography had to be made playable for all classes in all zones and that isn’t going to happen if it stays in the live game. Now it isn’t going to go back to beta because that was never an option to actually make the map playable for a PvP zone for all classes…

what classes arent playable cuz of topography?

I know Rev CoR doesn’t work on kitten near any unlevel ground. Unless that’s been fixed within the last couple of months.

sounds like something that the wvw team doesnt need to be held responsible for. specifically, that is the realm of the balance team. and they seem more interested in pvp, where this is easily also an issue.

time to make the hitbox fully 3d.

So, you’re saying everyone involved in making the DBL and all 4 HoT maps and creating a new class was oblivious to this?

yeah prolly. balance isnt their department.

maybe the proper people with the knowledge or connections dont even play rev in a zerg. maybe it works on the dev client. maybe its been addressed for the next quarterly update but theyre tightlipped as usual, especially if its a thing on the known issue tracker. maybe not.

I would have thought it was the fault of both, class designers for making aoe abilities that don;t work when the topography changes and map designers for not designing maps in accordance with the was the combat engine works. The PvE maps must have similar issues due to their complex topography.

its the fault of whoever designed the skill’kittenbox. they didnt take topography into account, they made the hit box 2d, and they made it end at walls (good) OR when the terrain at a certain elevation ends (bad). had they made it a rectangular prism instead of a line, it could be more resilient, but would prolly need some upgrade in tech on the back end to actually show the ground animations properly.

the map designers have nothing to do with that, they are making the world prettier and more interesting by adding slopes or different levels to play on and doing their jobs exceedingly well, but prolly need to converse with hardcore wvw players and or the wvw dev team about how to incorporate the elements that make a map fun to fight other players on instead of just to wander around and look at.

That is a problem with how they are designing the maps then. When designing a map for a PvP game mode, they need to think about how every inch of that map works to benefit each of the classes play styles and skills to enhance the player experience and game play. That is how you make a great map rather than just a “meh” map. The " pretty skin" is the after thought for enhancing game play for a PvP game mode. They should bring in the " pretty skin team" after they already have the topography and objectives of the map designed to benefit the game play. The aesthetics should only be added as long as they do not interfere with game play in any way. Otherwise they are designing the map backwards.

it really isnt a map design problem.

look at forest of niflhel, it has ramps and is still a map used in all pvp tournaments.

its an issue with designing hitboxes and how they interact with terrain.

Yea.. I am not a fan of that map either, but let’s be honest here, most of the other maps are just worse. You don’t compare maps on this game, you compare maps of this game to other games that design maps in different ways.

It just isn’t about hit boxes either, it is about designing the map around the player experience. from the point they log in, every inch of it until they log out. Keeping players engaged in Nonstop PvP action the entire time they are on it was not even a thought.

Xenesis.6389:

fishball.7204:

It’s pretty easy to hate on BG and #stackedgate but lets face it if BG does ‘die’ the people will be quitting and not spreading out to balance tiers which we all know is never gonna happen.

They’re not even willing to spread out right now, so makes no difference if they leave instead. All the servers around them have already had guilds move around to take them off of t1 population status. Less people will be playing but at least the 800lb gorilla won’t be around.

The reason they wont spread out is due to the environments on many of the other servers. Some are outright toxic. If they have to spend much more money to play WvW, pull overtime to be able to maintain tier, and be on maps filled with players that tell them to kitten off when they make calls or ask for help why would they want to leave a server those issues are solved to go to one that is just a big headache to deal with?
There is nothing being done to make the other servers better environments to move to.

Swagger.1459:

lil devils x.6071:

Swagger.1459:

lil devils x.6071:

briggah.7910:

long story short. it is not always fun to steam roll the enemies and it is not much fun getting steam rolled. players will get bored of each of these but the same results will happen. players will move on and find something else to do with their time.

There is more to it than that though. Players flocked to one server due to not being able to find that level of coordination and server unity elsewhere. That is actually due to this being a server vs server game mode since players cannot choose who is on their team with them. If WvW were GvGvG instead, guilds could kick people who were not cooperating, trolling, or helping on the server and ensure everyone on server contributes. That doesn’t happen, so their only alternative to not play with people creating a toxic environment is to leave. BG’s popularity was due to not being able to find that level of cooperation anywhere else and the sheer numbers of players looking for it.

“Coordination” aka “the masses want the best chances to win”…

What’s toxic is that wvw was left in this underdeveloped and unbalanced state for a long time. That’s the devs responsibility, not the players fault.

No actual coordination. AKA :

• Players willing to work with one another and help one another towards common goals not bicker and troll one another trying to prevent people from playing the game mode.

• Many players and guilds willing to contribute to resources needed to play. ( Siege, banners, food, utilities, guild upgrades/ buffs)

• Guilds working together and agreeing which maps to go to and when.

• Good scouts and guilds willing to respond to scouting calls.

• roamers, havoc and zergs working together to accomplish common goals.

Yes, these efforts increase your ability to win, however, it is not due necessarily to “outnumbering” but in willingness to work and play as a team. BG is well known for their ability to coordinate, even when they were not running great numbers. That reputation is why they grew as much as they did.

Yeah, stack to win.

Blame the devs for all wvw complaints please. Players are just playing through this mess and have some fun.

Um no, coordination isn’t necessarily related to player numbers or stacking. Wanting to be on servers where players are willing to help and work together =\= stacking to win. In BG’s case they were victim to lack of other servers being able to coordinate as well as they did. I was on JQ, I saw how well BG was able to coordinate their efforts and they deserve props for that, even when their numbers dropped and they were dropping to T2. That is also why when JQ had “coordination issues” some JQ players went to BG for that very reason.

Coordination allows you to hold your own even when massively outnumbered. BG often did that even when their PvE Blobs were in hibernation. They get credit where Credit is due. ( I don’t play on BG btw) My perspective is from one gained from fighting against them for a long time. They were just the most organized, united and coordinated server in the game. I LIKE fighting against that because it increases the challenge.

Reh.5986:

Are there any tiers left with action like there was after the first couple weeks of the link up? Is there any way for smart people to stack and even out the coverage on at least one tier matchup so we can all jump in and have the non stop fights and insanity with relatively even match ups again?

I would pay money…

Not in NA servers. EU seems to be having better luck though.
http://mos.millenium.org/eu

Swagger.1459:

lil devils x.6071:

briggah.7910:

long story short. it is not always fun to steam roll the enemies and it is not much fun getting steam rolled. players will get bored of each of these but the same results will happen. players will move on and find something else to do with their time.

There is more to it than that though. Players flocked to one server due to not being able to find that level of coordination and server unity elsewhere. That is actually due to this being a server vs server game mode since players cannot choose who is on their team with them. If WvW were GvGvG instead, guilds could kick people who were not cooperating, trolling, or helping on the server and ensure everyone on server contributes. That doesn’t happen, so their only alternative to not play with people creating a toxic environment is to leave. BG’s popularity was due to not being able to find that level of cooperation anywhere else and the sheer numbers of players looking for it.

“Coordination” aka “the masses want the best chances to win”…

What’s toxic is that wvw was left in this underdeveloped and unbalanced state for a long time. That’s the devs responsibility, not the players fault.

No actual coordination. AKA :

• Players willing to work with one another and help one another towards common goals not bicker and troll one another trying to prevent people from playing the game mode.

• Many players and guilds willing to contribute to resources needed to play. ( Siege, banners, food, utilities, guild upgrades/ buffs)

• Guilds working together and agreeing which maps to go to and when.

• Good scouts and guilds willing to respond to scouting calls.

• roamers, havoc and zergs working together to accomplish common goals.

Yes, these efforts increase your ability to win, however, it is not due necessarily to “outnumbering” but in willingness to work and play as a team. BG is well known for their ability to coordinate, even when they were not running great numbers. That reputation is why they grew as much as they did.

briggah.7910:

long story short. it is not always fun to steam roll the enemies and it is not much fun getting steam rolled. players will get bored of each of these but the same results will happen. players will move on and find something else to do with their time.

There is more to it than that though. Players flocked to one server due to not being able to find that level of coordination and server unity elsewhere. That is actually due to this being a server vs server game mode since players cannot choose who is on their team with them. If WvW were GvGvG instead, guilds could kick people who were not cooperating, trolling, or helping on the server and ensure everyone on server contributes. That doesn’t happen, so their only alternative to not play with people creating a toxic environment is to leave. BG’s popularity was due to not being able to find that level of cooperation anywhere else and the sheer numbers of players looking for it.

insanemaniac.2456:

shrek.1046:

insanemaniac.2456:

Loosmaster.8263:

insanemaniac.2456:

Loosmaster.8263:

insanemaniac.2456:

lil devils x.6071:

Crise.9401:

Loosmaster.8263:

We’re talking about the map structure itself.

There isn’t going to be any intrusive work done… if I recall correctly their methodology for DBL was to make low cost changes with big impact. This was justified by “because it is a live game”.

I’d wager that if we want a larger overhaul, which takes more than a trivial amount of dev time, it will not happen before bulk of the priority changes we voted are well underway, released or close to being released. Even then if they stick to their mantra it would not happen unless there was a poll and it was voted for. Structural overhaul of the map certainly qualifies as a major change.

So, until such a time the kind of changes we will likely see are the sort of stuff we have already seen or already know about.

THAT was why players wanted it to go back to Beta. The topography had to be made playable for all classes in all zones and that isn’t going to happen if it stays in the live game. Now it isn’t going to go back to beta because that was never an option to actually make the map playable for a PvP zone for all classes…

what classes arent playable cuz of topography?

I know Rev CoR doesn’t work on kitten near any unlevel ground. Unless that’s been fixed within the last couple of months.

sounds like something that the wvw team doesnt need to be held responsible for. specifically, that is the realm of the balance team. and they seem more interested in pvp, where this is easily also an issue.

time to make the hitbox fully 3d.

So, you’re saying everyone involved in making the DBL and all 4 HoT maps and creating a new class was oblivious to this?

yeah prolly. balance isnt their department.

maybe the proper people with the knowledge or connections dont even play rev in a zerg. maybe it works on the dev client. maybe its been addressed for the next quarterly update but theyre tightlipped as usual, especially if its a thing on the known issue tracker. maybe not.

I would have thought it was the fault of both, class designers for making aoe abilities that don;t work when the topography changes and map designers for not designing maps in accordance with the was the combat engine works. The PvE maps must have similar issues due to their complex topography.

its the fault of whoever designed the skill’kittenbox. they didnt take topography into account, they made the hit box 2d, and they made it end at walls (good) OR when the terrain at a certain elevation ends (bad). had they made it a rectangular prism instead of a line, it could be more resilient, but would prolly need some upgrade in tech on the back end to actually show the ground animations properly.

the map designers have nothing to do with that, they are making the world prettier and more interesting by adding slopes or different levels to play on and doing their jobs exceedingly well, but prolly need to converse with hardcore wvw players and or the wvw dev team about how to incorporate the elements that make a map fun to fight other players on instead of just to wander around and look at.

That is a problem with how they are designing the maps then. When designing a map for a PvP game mode, they need to think about how every inch of that map works to benefit each of the classes play styles and skills to enhance the player experience and game play. That is how you make a great map rather than just a “meh” map. The " pretty skin" is the after thought for enhancing game play for a PvP game mode. They should bring in the " pretty skin team" after they already have the topography and objectives of the map designed to benefit the game play. The aesthetics should only be added as long as they do not interfere with game play in any way. Otherwise they are designing the map backwards.

Swagger.1459:

@Nusku

1. Just before linkings BG blew up and there are not any server linkings right now that can even challenge you with ET. Nobody wants to fight hard because there is little point when players know they will get crushed in the end.

2. There is no “fighting” code of honor here… There are game rules to follow and tools players are given to use. I’ve been into pvp modes for a loooooong time and I always see silly complaints similar to stuff like we have here with the “using seige on field is for noobs”, “run behind walls and use structure for tactical cover is for weak nubs”, “2 servers attacked us QQ unfair”… This is a competitive mode and you use all means necessary within the game rules to win.

I’ll read the rest later, but everyone here knows BG/ET is unmatched right now and they are reading your post saying “oh poor you” and rolling their eyes. Yeah your guilds are bored and want to bail, they have zero challenge right now.

Yeah, wvw is not doing well as a whole, but to sit on BG and complaning right now is just silly.

I think you misunderstand. It isn’t YB using the worst mechanic in the game to win that was the problem, it was it being a mechanic to win at all that was the problem. They have to take away that as a win option to actually solve the problem long term. You see , no matter what Tier YB was in when they used that mechanic, everyone considered that toxic, not just one server or group of players.

BG blew up just before linkings due to players seeking coordinated servers where they didn’t have to do everything. No one wants to be the players/ guild that have to do all the work themselves, they want server help to get things done. BG is the best server to find that is why they went there.

Xenesis.6389:

lil devils x.6071:

That isn’t all of what actually happened.

I didn’t exactly want to wrote a novel of everything that has happened, just skimmed the time from a stable to an unstable T1.

P.S I was in that YB hell in T2 while I was on SoS, when it came to a point where no guild wanted to bother with YB, even holding our hills on our bl for days, hell we had to rely on friends from FA to help us break YB stuff.

Edit: apparently T 1 together is a kitten word here.

Yea I noticed the whole kitten thing too a while back. LOL

Yea, YB was known for this back when they were in T4 and as long as that remains a game mechanic to win it is always a problem. It highlights much of what is wrong with the game mode. rewarding PvD is what causes that and that still isn’t being addressed.

Most players on other servers already realized that playing that way made the game suck and was no fun so they would not play like that. YB went and made that " THE way to play" even going as far as to post nonsense on their forum home page about " fight guilds not welcome here" way back when.

BG became a PvE hub in the beginning and the place to go for all things PvE before the mega server happened and yes that ballooned them as well, but even after Anet took the PvE populations out of the count, BG kept growing as players were seeking refuge from the issues plaguing other servers.

Xenesis.6389:

I read it all since you managed to put your wall of text into paragraphs.

But I don’t think you quite understand why the enemy no longer wants to fight you, and it’s not the structures and upgrades that’s the problem. When you constantly go at your enemy with more numbers it will get to a point when they will just sit it out and wait for you to get bored. They will sit on their siege and wait for you to either get bored and move on, or whittle your numbers down enough to attack you with greater numbers. It’s always a numbers game.

T1 had a balance for years, when it was BG/JQ/TC, but after the T1 break and movement between YB TC JQ, then the links happened and BG woke up and apparently are stacked like it was year one, it’s clear T1 isn’t balanced anymore. I don’t think there’s a single server that wants to face BG anymore. The reality is BG needs to shed some weight and get itself closer in balance with the servers around it.

That isn’t all of what actually happened. YB moving up made many leave T1 and the game all together because it showcased the worst possible mechanic in WvW:

• DO NOT ENGAGE THE ENEMY.
• If you get caught by the enemy, do not fight. Die as fast as you can.
• Run and only PvD empty structures while enemy is busy elsewhere.
• Siege all structures as soon as you cap it according to proper siege placement ( every piece of siege is countered by more siege. AKA: AC is covered by bali , cat, trebs and more AC all covered by shield gens.)
• If structure gets attacked , zerg responds and does not engage enemy outside. All of zerg runs inside and gets on siege… Even if it is 5 people.
• if zerg sees enemy on field, DO NOT ATTACK. Run into nearest structure and get on siege fast.

• Do this and WIN!!!!

SO BG and JQ ran off and just fought each other for a while until they got bored while the gamemode was hemorrhaging players.
At the same time.. every tier was hemorrhaging players due to HoT fallout, players started leaving servers in search of organized servers, in search of having players to play with and against. So many guilds left the game all at once, leaving random players who still wanted to play in search of something better and MANY of them wound up on BG.

When news came that Anet was making changes, it lit up social media and players let all their friends know " hey come back things are going to be better" and so the players did come back,., just now so many were now on BG due to that being the most organized, coordinated server where they had people to play with and against. when everywhere else was losing too much population.

I don’t blame BG at all for the WvW issues.

BG is hands down the most coordinated united server in the game. Players not able to find that level of coordination that they tried to obtain on other servers due to the players on those servers being unwilling to cooperate flocked to BG due to this in search of being able to play the way they enjoyed.

Most who went to BG didn’t just go to " bandwagon" they were looking for an organized and united community that they didn’t have to deal with not being able to find people to cooperate to play. On many servers when they tried to unite the server, it failed miserably so they finally gave up and left in search of that organization.

The problem is of course , instead of other servers stepping up to the plate and following BG’s lead and “upping” their organization and uniting to be able to compete, the guilds bickered and argued until they ran each other off and those seeking organization fled to BG as well making the remaining servers even less organised than before.

Guilds and individuals want the whole server to pitch in and help and no one wants to have to be the one to " carry" the server or to have to pay for everything to support the server on their own. When they are not getting the support they need from their server, they often leave to other servers in search for that help so they don’t feel pressured to have to pull over time and pay more than everyone else or they will not even be able to raid/ play / maintain tier to enjoy the level of fights and competition they do not have at the lower tiers. They search for servers that have players willing to help and are organized so they do not have to do everything themselves and actually have a team supporting them. BG of course offered this more than any other server so it grew and grew..

Anet allowed it to keep growing while also allowing the other servers to keep shrinking and did nothing to help solve the problems that were making these players want to leave server in the first place. Everything needed to be the best in WvW is still not easily obtainable just by playing WvW and as long as that is the case players will always flock to servers that have the best financial benefit for their guild to raid. Anet did not address self sufficiency of WvW, increasing benefit for server cooperation or adding any measures in place to deter non participation. In Gw1, PvP teams could vote out members, in GW2 WvW opponents can queue up maps intentionally to prevent them from being able to get people on the map and there is nothing done to stop it. People can log into WvW and do nothing taking up a space that someone who would actually do something could be using. This creates a very hostile environment even from teammates rather than uniting a server.

BG’s abundant resources made it easier on all guilds running since they didn’t have to pay for all siege used on all maps alone, they had ample resources to recruit for their guilds to grow and be able to maintain guild upgrades to be able to claim and buff everything on the map, there was always the best banners, food and utilities made available for the guilds that play and plenty of people willing to siege up keeps, scout and defend. This makes it easier on every guild running.

BG is just a victim of it’s own success. No, they do not deserve to be punished for being the most coordinated and united server in the game. Anet instead should put measures in place to make that easier for other servers to be able to do as well. Locking people where they are unhappy isn’t the answer to that however, it is to improve their satisfaction instead so they don’t all have to leave to the same server to be able to enjoy the game mode.