Guild Wars 2

shrek.1046:

lil devils x.6071:

So if you have 20 accounts you can vote 20 times. MANY wvw players have multiple accounts.. Not having it be email invite only to WvW players over a certain rank, therer

Yes the poll is not exactly scientific however this is a good reason for having the 75% that way at least they mitigate against vote stacking somewhat. And thye have done what they can to ensure WvW players vote for it by sending emails when you rank up.

How did that do anything to prevent vote stacking? I voted twice, I could go vote more if I wanted to but why bother? How many times did you vote? In game message=\= email. The surveys they used to create this game and the ones they sent out after HoT were via your actual Email, this should be done the same considering many people are traveling due to it being summer vacation and not even playing the game atm. I have’t received anything in game or outside of it about the poll FYI.

What is going to wind up happening is most people don’t vote, they are just going to show up one day and the changes will be implemented and they will leave.

Ben K.6238:

You can vote once per account.

You can change your vote, but entering the same vote again does nothing but show the current numbers. (I’m not much of a fan of this system, as it’s causing the “don’t count my vote” option to be the only thing that increases over the week.)

So if you have 20 accounts you can vote 20 times. MANY wvw players have multiple accounts.. Not having it be email invite only to WvW players over a certain rank, there is no way to gauge how many actual WvW players voted.
The primary problem when they made the $10 accounts as to why they did not gain as many " new players" as they had intended was much of those accounts were just WvW players making accounts for all servers.. The thing with Emailing the polls is they would only be emailing them to players who at least had time to wvw level all those accounts, and not just let every dummy account sitting there get as much say as every actual player. I know players who have 4 accounts just on one server in addition to having them on every other server both EU and NA. When you want an accurate head count though that isn’t going to be how you get it.

shrek.1046:

DeWolfe.2174:

shrek.1046:

DeWolfe.2174:

shrek.1046:

DeWolfe.2174:

Hexinx.1872:

Getting rid of a map completely would inevitably lead to never getting another map again. At least having it on 1 BL … would give some hope for the future of WvW …

As a business, they have to innovate or lose. A better way of thinking about is to imagine the Dev’s saying, “Wow, they really did dislike that map. Better make another one fast before they jump ship.”

Except they have made it clear that a new map is off the table if they get rid of the DBL.

Link Please? I’d be surprised someone from Anet marketing would say that as it would have to be one of the poorest responses to a Customer Satisfaction complaint I’ve ever heard of.

It was in the poll on mixed BL maps. Its not certain but there was a clear implication.

So basically your saying the WvW team twisted everyone’s arm with an idle threat that they better vote to keep the DBl or they’ll never make another map again? Seriously? Why isn’t there an uproar over that then? Ya’ll just stood there and took that?

It was actually on reddit about the mixed BL poll:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/4lx2gx/may_31_new_wvw_poll/d3qwc2f

[–]Anet-TylerB 32 points an hour ago
If simultaneous borderlands wins, we’d be more likely to work on another borderlands map. So that each team could have a unique borderland, but it’s not something we are currently working on.

Which is stupid considering people only wanted them to get rid of the DBL and bring back alpine to WAIT ON while they made a good WvW map that they don’t let out of beta until the players vote it is ready. AT the time players asked for Alpine back, they were asking them to make another map, and they just wanted ALpine in so they could play at all. They just wanted Alpine back temporarily because they considered the game mode unplayable at all as long as DBL was in it.

Many players left the game all together due to seeing WvW as unplayable, and it is about to go right back there soon, so no they will not bother to come check it out when they do finally make a new map because Anet will have burnt that bridge by then. They seriously need to hire some people with critical thinking skills because anyone could have seen this coming from a mile away. The goal should be to increase players, not make them leave in droves.

Rashagar.8349:

lil devils x.6071:

DeWolfe.2174:

Jong.5937:

conducted a proper poll.

I doubt that it was.

A proper poll would have been one that was email invite only to WvW players past and present over a certain rank. Not a poll non WvW players and people who have 20 accounts can vote as many times as they like. I pointed that out in the first poll they chunked on forums like this, we have not seen a proper poll as of yet. IF you have 20 accounts, you can vote 20 times.

I mean if someone really wants to win all they have to do is go to Busy PvE centers and start offering gold for people to prove they voted the way they wanted them to. It isn’t like PvE players care what happens in WvW. But that would have to mean people still care enough to do that. LOL

So avid haters of the dbl can be assumed to have voted multiple times in an effort to get their own way, as long as they’re avid enough or the person saying it is paranoid enough? =P

No I was told you could vote more than once , so I did.. and then didn’t bother to care anymore to tell anyone there is even a poll at this point. If you bothered to read my last threads in here, I was advocating to not get rid of it entirely BTW. I asked for them to send it to beta and bring it out when the community voted that it was ready instead of expecting players to play on a map that will not even allow all classes to use their skills in numerous areas in a PvP game mode.

There is nothing I can do to convince players to come back/stay anymore because Anet chooses to run players off instead of try to increase them with terrible decisions that continually make players leave .. over and over and over..

I was told it isn’t worth my time to try and .. I believe them.

Liston.9708:

just lol @ vote buying reasoning and ballot box stuffing…..

the reason the poll went the way it did was the # of dbl boycotters/haters was simply just not as many as some people thought…

Most people I know are not even voting.. and I didn’t bother telling them there was a poll at this point when I realized how many times I could vote.. There are more than you realize. The thing is people are tired. If you have to tell developers that the purpose of updates is to increase game population, increase player satisfaction, and increase game longevity and they still choose to run off their existing population with the unprofessional way they conducted these polls, ( They didn’t even have to have an option to remove it entirely, they could have just agreed to take it back to beta until players vote on when it is ready as was suggested as a compromise to make sure neither side leaves the game.), taking upgrades away from guilds that some guilds never were able to obtain again, breaking up friends, families, and guilds by server merging/ locking, adding a ton of lame PVE gimmicky crap to WvW that makes more players leave the game than it brings in, it is not worth wasting my time on.

Basically what Anet is doing now is sloppy and ridiculously too little too late, and still in the wrong direction.

EDIT: I did not ask or tell a single person on this game that there was even a poll this time. Not going to bother.

shrek.1046:

NathanH.1465:

Personally, I think the poll fails because the answer isn’t a simple ‘yes’ or ‘no’.

It is a simple yes or not though.

NathanH.1465:

• anet asking us, if they should delete something? the fact they are even asking shows that they have no idea what direction to take their game in…

We’ve been through this the players forced them into this poll.

No, actually Anet forced this poll. The polling players asked for was to be sent to all WvW players past and present over a certain rank via email to ensure only WvW players voted and not a ton of duplicate accounts. This poll, along with all the others they put on these forums thus far is rubbish and unorganized rubbish at that.

Numerous players asked for other options, they were not presented. Doing it this way just forces players on one side or the other to give up on the game and leave. This is going to have worse results than even the tournaments did due to how they chose to go about this. No one can take blame for that except for Anet.

They had a choice between running off players or having an opportunity to increase player base, increase player satisfaction and increase the games longevity. They chose the former.

You cannot blame others for their actions, they chose to do it wrong.

DeWolfe.2174:

Jong.5937:

conducted a proper poll.

I doubt that it was.

A proper poll would have been one that was email invite only to WvW players past and present over a certain rank. Not a poll non WvW players and people who have 20 accounts can vote as many times as they like. I pointed that out in the first poll they chunked on forums like this, we have not seen a proper poll as of yet. IF you have 20 accounts, you can vote 20 times.

I mean if someone really wants to win all they have to do is go to Busy PvE centers and start offering gold for people to prove they voted the way they wanted them to. It isn’t like PvE players care what happens in WvW. But that would have to mean people still care enough to do that. LOL

Why would they remove the most popular map and replace it with the least popular? MAKES NO SENSE.

Bad for players to have to go re-earn what they already had before. Instead of making older content more complicated, add new content that is actually good. Updates should be adding more, not taking away what people already have. If there is a petition to change it back, add my name to the list. I have no idea who thinks up these stupid things to do, this and the " oh lets take away everything guild already earned ad make it way harder to get it back so most the small guilds quit the game already" This falls into the same category of making players unhappy with the developers and their game. It seems like a little straw.. but it only take that " one straw" to break the camels back.

Silas Eorth.7348:

Have fun sabotaging your server guys!

Yes, what you just suggested will result in a ban if Anet catches you doing it. I was told to report people fro siege trolling as bots so A dev will come watch them and ban them.

Knob.6835:

Really all decisions should be settled in WvW… Screw polls. 2 sides fight and the winners idea gets implemented.

And they just thought that the tourneys have permanent decreased WvW players… Though that idea might actually lose less players than this poll will in the end.

The problem with them running off players with their specific actions such as this, is when the people who want to play with those players leave to play the new game the players that left went to play instead so then you lose their friends and then the people who want to play with those people go to play with them instead.. and it takes out many more people than just the ones who were initially unhappy when players talk on social media and find out where everyone is going. In the end the population just continues to decrease as the game ages and people move on to play with their friends elsewhere.

That was what happened during HOT.. even many of the players who liked the DBL left just so they could play with their friends. People want them to make great maps, not just accept a broken map they made somewhat playable. The reason for implementing new content needs to always be to increase game population, increase player satisfaction and increase game longevity. If the new content does not accomplish that, it should have never been released in the first place.

DeWolfe.2174:

shrek.1046:

DeWolfe.2174:

Hexinx.1872:

Getting rid of a map completely would inevitably lead to never getting another map again. At least having it on 1 BL … would give some hope for the future of WvW …

As a business, they have to innovate or lose. A better way of thinking about is to imagine the Dev’s saying, “Wow, they really did dislike that map. Better make another one fast before they jump ship.”

Except they have made it clear that a new map is off the table if they get rid of the DBL.

Link Please? I’d be surprised someone from Anet marketing would say that as it would have to be one of the poorest responses to a Customer Satisfaction complaint I’ve ever heard of.

like I said in the previous polls, This method of polling doesn’t actually show anything. Due to how they chose to do the polls, anyone with 20 accounts can vote 20 times and if you don’t even play WvW you can vote as well. They didn’t email them to past and present WvW players over a certain rank to ensure they get WvW player feedback and instead it is open to non WvW players and multiple accounts.

Most do not even know the polls exist, nor are they going to bother with voting in them, they will just leave when they don’t like the game anymore. TBH, I stopped trying, I am not going to go tell people to come vote/ post anymore because honestly, Anet saw the numbers, they know why people left. They know many will leave and not come back this time if they bring the DBL back, if they want to kill the game faster it is their game to kill, I am not going to bother trying to save it anymore. Seriously, if it is this much of a struggle to even get them on the right track to making great maps and increasing their game population long term and they want to force people to accept broken maps they made somewhat playable instead, I don’t think it is worth my time to try to help them anymore tbh. IF they want to do stupid stuff to their game that runs much of the population there isn’t anything we can do to stop them in the end except sit back and watch it burn.

Sure many people will accept a bad map rather than nothing, but that isn’t going to keep them playing long term. Wanting them to make great maps that focus on keeping players engaged in nonstop challenging, fun strategic PvP action the entire time they are on it will never happen because people will accept garbage instead so they will keep feeding them garbage. Those who don’t want to be fed garbage are not going to stick around to watch the others eat it in the end.

They do not actually function the same way is part of the issue, ( same chat rules do not apply ) and team chat is more important to be able to speak to all on that map due to the way it actually functions. Guilds now consist of players from both servers merged , Guilds recruit from both servers merged and both servers are in same squad and need to be able to see all calls made in team chat regardless of who is saying them.

Map chat is less useful in WvW at all due to it’s function limitations not being as beneficial as Team chat and is more of a PvE tool instead.

Changing them would be bad for both servers and cause confusion as to why scouts and commanders can no longer see calls. You have guild chat to talk to just your guild, but we have multiple squads running on map from multiple servers and commanders do not need to chat limitations of map chat so they need to be able to have the freedom Team chat offers as well as every squad, guild and player on that map to see what is being said.

If they want to create a server chat so be it, but leave Team chat alone.

Jayne.9251:

judge.8754:

Sooo, originally we were medium populated on Gunnars Hold. After the “merge with fow” we were “full”. Couple of days ago i think we got from full to medium again. Now we seem to be full again.

Yet most of the days we don’t even have ANY queues!
Even when we have a queue at prime time on 1 map, it’s back to no queues in 1 or 2 hours tops.

How does this even work?

We are coming up to a relinking time.

Servers that were the hosts were full to encourage migration to lower linked servers.

Data of population was likely being evaluated for a week for new pairings, so servers were unlocked for a bit to get accurate measure.

Links have been decided. Locked up again.

All that equates to is players playing a different game until they can play with their guilds again. It just runs players off from the game all together, not forces them to play where they are unhappy. That affects all players all tiers, not just one in particular.

The end result is the same, it reduces game population in the short and long term. Basically it is just killing the game faster.

The primary thing developers need to understand about their games is that they cannot make people do things they do not want to do since players can always log out and not come back. If you do things that make the players unhappy, that is exactly what they will do

People play games to have fun, if the game developer makes the game not fun for them anymore by thinking they can control what makes the game fun for them, they just run people off from their game to another game they can have fun again playing. People do not have to play their game, the developers have to make their game good enough that players WANT to play their game more than they want to play someone else’s game. You do not do that from preventing players from playing with their friends, families or guildmates.

LordAdre.8174:

I surely won’t play DBL ever again. seriously anet, wtf is wrong with you? 70% voted yes for both ALpine and deseert, but “only” because 70% out of 75% of wvw player voted yes, aint enough for you so you will do a quaterly swap map? this is seriously senseless. But something is sure, is that if you put DBL x3 for 3 month, you will lose another player. and god knows I won’t be the only one leaving. so if your logic is to listen to 30% of the wvw population, idk what else to say exept u must have brain issues.

They are giving you a poll to remove the DBL from WvW so you never do have to play it again.

Puck.9612:

Dawdler.8521:

Xenesis.6389:

Now for the people who voted “no” and want to stick to the 3 month rotation, just pushed more players to want to just delete the dbl if that scenario will continue.

Indeed. If a vote comes up to scrap it, I’ll vote yes in a heartbeat. I dont care how much work devs put into it or if it can be further “fixed”, the threat of 3 long months of the community being torn apart is simply too great, no more compromise.

Yup. I could deal with having 2 alpine 1 dbl (although I still see this as a problem), but it’s not worth the risk of the the mixed bl vote failing and watching the community get destroyed if we are stuck with the dbl again. I’ll definitely be voting for its destruction.

If they end up being bitter and decide to never make a new map we’d still get a good year or 2 of playable WvW while slowly losing players to stagnation, if they bring back the dbl that’s pretty much game over .

The 2 alpine 1 DBL option still would lose players though due to the imbalance it creates between the teams. For players who actually try to play all maps and try to defend and attack all objectives as part of their game play they are basically getting a broken game mode all of the time. For those who hop between all the maps defending and attacking this was how this was viewed:

1)Mixed BLs= Broken game mode all of the time.
2) Rotation= Playable game mode part of the time
3)No DBL= playable game mode all of the time.

For players who just played on one map doing whatever the mixed BLS were fine, but for those who play the whole game ( all maps) being their battlefield and they actually care about the score and balance, adding the DBL added an element to the game mode that made the game mode unplayable because of how many players were unwilling to go there at all making it so whoever had the most players on their server even willing to go to the DBL would win by default.

Players seem to think that having a mixed BL meant people could just play where they want and how they want. That works for only players who do not hop to all maps and defend an attack all objectives and care about the score and balance. For those players, the game mode is unplayable/ broken with mixed BLs and you are then giving them a broken game mode all of the time with mixed BLs rather than having the option of ever having a playable game mode at all.

They need the poll about the poll about the other poll to be able to get to the poll about that poll.

Would it not be easier to have this poll first instead?

A) Take DBL back to beta to be reworked and retested until the community votes that they enjoy playing on it and it is ready to go live.

B) DBL is ready and should be brought back to live game.

The results of this poll would determine whether or not we should even be having the other polls..

In addition, It is awesome Anet is using polls, but they need to get this a bit more organized first. I do hope they do not become disheartened with this poll mess and stop using surveys all together. I really think they should go back to doing it the way they did to create the game via email surveys instead and for WvW content just email surveys with write in options as well to all wvw players over a certain rank since these polls currently can actually be used by the same player who has accounts on every server so like one player gets to vote as many accounts as they have. Of course they can have multiple accounts with higher WvW ranks, but they will have a lot less of them than the ones with low ranks as these polls currently do.

Dagger.2035:

It doesn’t seem right to transfer to a guest server if you don’t actually want to play for that server…

I really still think it would be better to just keep all current worlds as PvE servers and then create WvW servers that players choose to go to every 3 months or so. Create only enough servers that they have population for. If the game reduces population create less WvW servers, if the game grows, create more.

This way each server community stays in tact and can agree to all go to whatever wvw server as a community. The matchups change every 3 months so they will not be stale, and there will always only be enough servers open that the game has population for.

Win situation all the way around. Give1 free wvw server tansfer per 3 months just in cased they get somewhere that isn’t working for them. All PvE server transfers would be free Win for everyone except Anet would lose money for transfers since you really would not need them as much, but hopefully would gain money from gem store purchases from the players retained by keeping WvW fresh.

The current merger system, the servers have no say over their destiny and they lose their identity to the larger server they are merged with. At least this way they could choose to stay together or part ways and choose what team they play for, not have that dictated to them.

Jayne.9251:

lil devils x.6071:

Tyler Bearce.3427:

We are looking at ways to improve transfer experience. It’s a complicated problem.

Our current preferred solution, which we’ll likely poll players on, is as follows:

• If you think of the periods between world links being changed as seasons, then we’d lock all transfers for the first half of the season, and allow normal transferring in the second half.
• So assuming we continue to update world links once every 3 months, the first 6 weeks would be locked for all worlds and the second set of 6 weeks would allow normal transfering (costs scaling based on population size.) Then we’d relink worlds and lock transfers for another 6 weeks.

I have to agree with Puck here, This is a very terrible very bad plan. Players need to be able to play the game with friends and family. It is MORE important to players to play the game with people they enjoy rather than play a specific game. If they cannot play your game with their friends and family they will play someone else’s game that allows them to.

Every time you unmerge worlds, you will be splitting guilds, friends and family, locking them where they are at only ensures they no longer play your game at all and move to a game that will allow them to play together. Playing with those you enjoy playing with> what game that is.

It should never be taken for granted that players do not have to play your game, you are supposed to make them WANT to play your game. You do not do that by trying to prevent them from playing the game with those they enjoy playing it with.

Or.. You could all collectively move to an open server en masse and continue to play with the people you value most.

Did you read what he said? LOCK ALL TRANSFERS= go play another game until you can transfer.
It just means players will leave the game instead of play a game where they are unhappy.

Tyler Bearce.3427:

We are looking at ways to improve transfer experience. It’s a complicated problem.

Our current preferred solution, which we’ll likely poll players on, is as follows:

• If you think of the periods between world links being changed as seasons, then we’d lock all transfers for the first half of the season, and allow normal transferring in the second half.
• So assuming we continue to update world links once every 3 months, the first 6 weeks would be locked for all worlds and the second set of 6 weeks would allow normal transfering (costs scaling based on population size.) Then we’d relink worlds and lock transfers for another 6 weeks.

I have to agree with Puck here, This is a very terrible very bad plan. Players need to be able to play the game with friends and family. It is MORE important to players to play the game with people they enjoy rather than play a specific game. If they cannot play your game with their friends and family they will play someone else’s game that allows them to.

Every time you unmerge worlds, you will be splitting guilds, friends and family, locking them where they are at only ensures they no longer play your game at all and move to a game that will allow them to play together. Playing with those you enjoy playing with> what game that is.

It should never be taken for granted that players do not have to play your game, you are supposed to make them WANT to play your game. You do not do that by trying to prevent them from playing the game with those they enjoy playing it with.

Locking people where they are not happy only ensures they leave the game unhappy.

X T D.6458:

Tyler Bearce.3427:

Personally, I voted ‘Yes’ to this, as did the rest of my team. So we are also disappointed with the result. But that was an accepted risk when we decided to poll the community about WvW development rather than just following our own vision.

Problem is now people like me who didn’t like the dbl but were prepared to accept both maps at once will be basically forced to vote against it ever returning it again…And now I am going to feel really bad if it gets to 75% for all those people who like the dbl and to all the devs who worked on it…

This is why I think it should not be a vote to vote it out entirely, just to take it out of live game and work on it, beta test it, poll it. Work/test/poll/work/test/poll until it is ready. THEN poll to have it put back in game once players are happy with it instead.

Instead of voting it out entirely, vote to send it back to beta until it is ready.

They really should have waited to even bring the DBL up right now at all with so many still raging hating on the DBL still. I think they may not grasp how much people actually hate that map right now.

hophopcool.7618:

lil devils x.6071:

Depending on what they say or do, you can report them for verbal abuse or spamming. The easiest option is to block them after doing so and tell everyone in your squad to block them so no one has to deal with it until Anet can handle them. There are tons of reports and only a few people to respond to them so it does take some time to be able to do so. 3 hours is not very much time to respond given the number of spam/ verbal abuse reports they receive. With the block and chat filters you get to see only what you want to see, so it isn’t like you are forced to see what they have to say, you do have control over that.

If they are siege trolling, I was told to report it as a bot so a GM will come watch them and see what they are doing and make a judgement call.

Hope that helps.

in my post i mentioned a guy that had been verbally attacking people in map chat for over 4 months. i would hope that it wouldn’t take then longer than this to sort these people out ? i understand they will not do anything in 3 hours but mentioned them as its been over 4 months of them doing this.

Some of those guys have been banned and came back and are still doing it.. They just keep getting banned and reinstated. I thought the only things that get people perma banned have to be really bad like hacking, gold selling, RL death threats, Racist/sexist xenophobic stuff so it may take quite a bit over the troll line to actually get perma banned.

Depending on what they say or do, you can report them for verbal abuse or spamming. The easiest option is to block them after doing so and tell everyone in your squad to block them so no one has to deal with it until Anet can handle them. There are tons of reports and only a few people to respond to them so it does take some time to be able to do so. 3 hours is not very much time to respond given the number of spam/ verbal abuse reports they receive. With the block and chat filters you get to see only what you want to see, so it isn’t like you are forced to see what they have to say, you do have control over that.

If they are siege trolling, I was told to report it as a bot so a GM will come watch them and see what they are doing and make a judgement call.

Hope that helps.

Nausicca.6038:

Great, these dead borderlands again…

If you scroll back through the thread, Tyler posted that the poll after next is supposed to give the option to vote the DBL out of WvW and have no rotation so this is actually not a loss to those players who do not want the DBL in WvW, it is a loss to those who do.

AS most already know, Tyler said we will be getting a vote to scrap the DBL from WvW in an upcoming poll. For many, the idea of saving the DBL at all is not really much of a concern, however, it would be bad for everything from that to go to waste and for it to be considered a complete loss.

Although it is expected that the DBL will be voted out entirely, It could be an agreeable option to remove it from the live game and take it back to beta instead and to not release it again the community votes to agree that the map is ready and wanted. If they poll players to see what changes are made, test it, poll again, test it, and not release it until the 75% want it in the game, it gives them the opportunity to make it into a good map and also allows for players to not be forced to play on it until it is ready.

Personally, I think it was way too soon after players returning for Alpine to even attempt to bring up the DBL at all yet and they should have made another map (nothing to do with desert) and test/ poll/test/poll/test/ poll until it is ready to server as a buffer between the negativity attached to the DBL and the positivity that should come from getting a new map to get players excited about new maps again before even trying to address the DBL.

But if they absolutely do not want to work on a buffer map instead right now, and want to risk players not even willing to try it when they do change it, they can at least try to take it back to beta and test/poll/test/poll/test/poll until it is ready and not do away with it all together.

I think for many that would be an agreeable solution that does not remove the option of them at least trying to make the map better for everyone involved.

I would prefer they actually email their surveys including write in answers as they did and used to create this game in the first place. They did send out email surveys after HOT to some players, but what I would really like to see them do in regards to WvW is send them out to every WvW player over a certain rank, past or present to actually see what the WvW community wants rather than do random surveys on the forums open to anyone, including their multiple accounts with low WvW ranks or players that have never stepped foot into WvW.

Reaching out to the WvW community specifically, including those that may have left the game over decisions that have been made would be the best way to gauge what the wvw community wants and how to increase their player base for that community. The way they are currently doing the polls do not accomplish that, nor does it reach out to those who already lost hope that the developers would ever listen to them. I think that would make a real difference in how these things turn out and how effective these things actually change the game for the better to increase the population of the game mode and have it grow instead of shrink.

Swagger.1459:

Diku.2546:

@Teon

No PvE gimmicks…shudders at the thought.

Sometimes…Less is More.

---

I get what you mean though…ANet can do more “tweeks” to improve things specifically for the WvW Game Mode.

The devs have already stated that EB is the most popular map, so all wvw maps need to be modeled more in that style.

Teon didn’t say “add more PvE”. Most players wanted open spaces, less mazes and less verticality… Most wanted problob maps, not the awful obstacle dbl design. Most want mass warfare, not jumping puzzles.

Much of the obstacle/closed off design ALSO prevents some classes from being able to use their skills making many of the areas where people are supposed to fight where their classes are unplayable on the map at all. The Keeps have to be redone entirely to solve much of the problems as well. The actual topography and obstacle design is what makes some classes unplayable on the maps at all. It was like they made being able to actually play the maps with all classes an afterthought..

Diku.2546:

@Teon

No PvE gimmicks…shudders at the thought.

Sometimes…Less is More.

---

I get what you mean though…ANet can do more “tweeks” to improve things specifically for the WvW Game Mode.

But that will still not be better than a map designed from the ground up with Keeping players engaged in nonstop PvP action the entire time they are on it.

If they rethink the map entirely from the perspective of how it plays straight out of spawn and focus on bringing players together to want to fight over the objectives and focus on how each class plays on every single mm the map adding content to benefit every class type to enhance their game play experience rather than have game play as an after thought it could be good. However, that is going to take a ton of work and means taking it back to the drawing table, not just tweaking it here and there. They have to start over with the topography.

Game play should have been the focus, the skins should have been the afterthought.

DeWolfe.2174:

insanemaniac.2456:

just say no to this thread.

2-1 abl-dbl is the best possible outcome. anet will consider working on a 3rd map, we can have both maps to play on at all times instead of long periods of time with only a single map type, and the different maps have different advantages which can help shore up the smallest server against the larger servers’ population advantage.

How is having dissimilar maps a “good” thing for balance? All it’ll do is drive players to the Alpine maps and EB. Thus giving free PPT to the Red World.

Knob.6835:

I don’t understand how “you people” can’t compromise. Everything has to be your way. There are other people who play this game and do not share your opinion.

Because the “compromise” appears to be catering to an extremely small percentage of the population. There should have been voting to bring it back at all first. Then vote on the number of instances of maps. Not just sticking us with it, again.

Really there should have been voting in beta before ever allowing it to go live. They should not have implemented it at all until players voted that they were happy with it and wanted it. If they were willing to bring it back to beta until that happens, that would be an agreeable solution.

Dawdler.8521:

DeWolfe.2174:

How is having dissimilar maps a “good” thing for balance? All it’ll do is drive players to the Alpine maps and EB. Thus giving free PPT to the Red World.

Which would be bad how exactly?

People not wanting to play on DBL goes three ways, literally. If we give it to the lowest ranked server and they get “free PPT” because no one truly assault the map then thats fine. It forces people to go to DBL and fight even harder over claims on alpine. Everybody win. If there isnt enough population to do both, well then a third alpine would be just as empty and feed PPT to defenders so I fail to see the point.

That isn’t how WvW is played. The same group hop to every map defending/ attacking keeps, they do not suddenly have more targets to attack/ defend if they are unable to attack/ defend one of the maps. They just have less targets to attck/ defend than the team that will also go to that map in addition to the other maps.

3 servers in match have 1 zerg running for all 4 maps in play. 2 teams have zergs that will not go to DBL and one server does. That server who has more players willing to go DBL will hop to all the alpine maps to attack and defend as well as the DBL, so they get a whole map of FREE points since no one else will go to it IN ADDITION to the targets they hit on Alpine maps and EBG. They do not suddenly even themselves out, they just get all of those objectives PLUS whatever they can take on the other maps. The other 2 teams then only get the points from 3 maps, not 4, as they would if that were an alpine map and not a DBL.

Only the server with players that will go to DBL will get the points from 4 maps, the others will only get the points from 3. Players do not stay on one map the entire time they play, they hop to all of them, except when there are DBL’s, many will not hop to those at all.

Dawdler.8521:

lil devils x.6071:

The DBL destroyed guilds and ran off many.

I think you are confusing DBL with guild halls.

Guild halls, removal of everything guilds earned, kittening over small guilds with the guild upgrade requirements all ran off people as well, but they still do not take away from those who actually re earned everything they lost with the guild system back but still didn’t want to play anymore over the DBL maps.

All of these things ran off players, that does not mean the others didn’t do so as well. Some guild were ripped apart over players refusing to go to the DBL, so then commanders started kicking those who wouldn’t go DBL and then guilds fell apart over it. There were quite a few things with HOT that killed many guilds, this was just one of them.

Teon.5168:

Don’t know why I bother, but…..

Lil devils, I would really appreciate it if you would quit pretending like you speak for the entire player base. You don’t. Simple as that.

I would really appreciate it if you would quit pretending you can tell me what I should and should not do. I never said I speak for the entire player base and have just as much right as you do to post my experiences as you do.

I happen to play this game with a great deal of people from many servers and I would like them to have a chance to speak for themselves and not have you come troll people every time someone does. You can disagree, however, you do not control others opinions, as they are free to dislike the maps and want their family and friends to play the game with them. Every time someone voices their opinion on their dislike of the maps, you seem to think you should tell them they should not be entitled to do so. So if you don’t mind, Tyler already said we get a vote so deal with it. Go vote and I expect everyone I know to do the same as well. We are free to discuss that issue as we please, and really I could care less what you think about that. You can mind your own business, and I am minding mine. THIS IS my business as a guild leader of one of the larger WvW guilds in this game since I am trying to look out for the best interest of my guilds, my friends, and my family playing this game. I am trying to ensure they will continue to do so.

Tyler said the poll after next we will get a poll to vote it out. The thing is, they really tried to push this too soon, and if they had done things different and used a buffer map then put it back into beta making changes according to player feedback and tested and retested until players were happy before going live with it, this would not even be an issue right now.

They need to send it back to the drawing table and have it approved by players before even attempting to vote on putting it back into the live game. That hasn’t happened so yea it sadly is better to scrap it until that does for the health of the game.

A vote to keep it is a vote to run off many players from the game again. Even if you dont mind the DBl so much, people mind losing their friends family and guildies from the game so they would have to vote to remove it just to be able to play the game with those they enjoy playing it with. The DBL destroyed guilds and ran off many. When that happens players leave the game to be able to play a game with those who left.. then more leave to play with them.. it is just not good for the game health to keep things that are so divisive in the game at all since it will permanently reduce the size of the community.

ALSO: You might want to let some of your OCX know how much JQ scouts dislike DBL, some seem to think scouts like to hide there… XD

Puck.9612:

scerevisiae.1972:

well, the vote for (2+1)(1+ 2) BLs stands at 69.7% after normalising for the 7.2% undecided, which is a clear majority, but just shy of the (rather extreme) 75%.

As is evident in this thread, I think this poll was poorly constructed in that people who hate either alpine or desert would be split between the 2+1 and rotation options, when I strongly believe that what most people would really like to see is 3 distinct BL maps.

Like others here, if we end up with a 3 month rotation of Desert then I’ll be taking another long break from the game, as WVW is the only reason I play this game and I strongly dislike Desert as it’s too easy for sides to avoid each other, too much running to get anywhere, extremely irritating terrain restrictions. I hope Anet remove Desert from WVW completely and re-purpose it as a PVE map.

So yeah, I’d really like to see another poll that explicitly mentions 3 distinct BL maps as an option, I’m willing to bet $$ this is what most players really want.

I would not like a match with 3 distinct bl’s.
I’m hoping that since WvW is finally getting the attention it deserves we might eventually hit a point where it can be competitive. This will never happen with 3 unbalanced maps.

What I’d really like to see is for them to work with the community to create new maps and then rotate them on a weekly/biweekly basis.

That is what I would like to see as well. Instead of trying to handcuff players to bad maps, they extensively test them and make changes according to polls before they go live, and not allow them to go live until the community is happy with them. Then rotate them out every week or couple of weeks instead allowing for actual variety of game play while maintaining balance. There should not be a " bad map " win/lose mechanic added such as the mixed maps will create.

This whole mixed map idea is just not very well thought out.

Teon.5168:

lil devils x.6071:

WvW is not GvG, it is server vs server. The entire server is YOUR team.

This is no longer the case with the linking of servers, especially for the ‘guest’ servers, and especially for those servers that find themselves in a less than ideal pairing.

You also state, “You choose to be on their team every time you step foot in WvW”……this, too, is no longer the case, as guest servers did not have any sort of free choice of who they got paired with.

Your ‘logic’ might make sense before pairing/linking existed, but since that isn’t the case now, your statements on teams/servers are irrelevant.

The statements apply just the same regardless of who is on what server or whether or not servers are paired. You do not choose who is on your server with you. You do not choose who is on the server paired with you. It is all the same team regardless and treated no different than any other team. Why would server pairings have any impact on the fact it is still a team game mode? It is a team no matter how that team is created. The only way not to be on that team is to switch to another team ( server) or not play WvW.

You still do not choose who is on your server or servers ( team) with you regardless, and if you are standing in left field, people are still going to yell at you to get the ball.

migellito.7301:

Tyler Bearce.3427:

…
What’s next?

• We’ll poll the community to see if at least 75% of them would like to see the Desert Borderlands permanent removed. This won’t be next weeks poll, but likely the week after that.
• If players vote to remove DBL, then the results of this poll will be void (as we’ll only have one borderlands map.) Otherwise, we’ll move forwards with the results of this poll.

Seriously? You’re willing to let a handful of internet trolls just smash the hard work your dev teams spent months on? This has got to be the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever heard. This is worse than when all those entitled little whiners just couldn’t live with how Mass Effect 3 ended. Buying a copy of a game should not make you feel like you have any right to decide what’s in it.

They should email every past and present WvW player over a certain rank, not just a “handful” of internet trolls.

Really though, if they had listened in the first place and realized that they should put the DBL on ice and come out with a buffer map in the middle, this would not even be discussed right now. Pushing it too soon after you just got players back to the game after guilds were destroyed over this map= might as well trash the map because people will be angry and not even try it if you change it.

If they at least had a buffer map and did not release it live until it has community approval, they could go back and do the same with the desert while players are playing that map allowing players to see that it is actually different and not the same.

morrolan.9608:

lil devils x.6071:

This is how it actually works now:
You have a Group of 25 that is hopping to all maps to defend all objectives. You hop to ABLs to defend/ attack keeps all 25 go and you can do so. You hop to EBG to defend and attack keeps all 25 go and you can do so.

This is how it works with mixed BL:
You have a Group of 25 that is hopping to all maps to defend all objectives. You hop to ABLs to defend/ attack keeps all 25 go. You hop to EBG to defend and attack keeps all 25 go. You hop to DBL only 7 will go. You cannot attack or defend keeps with 7. That means WvW is now a broken game mode for those who do this and many consider that unplayable.

As I’ve said before you lose players hopping from EB to even the ABL not just DBL.

No where near as many…
Never had a problem getting enough people to defend Gari on ABL. Almost always had a problem getting enough players to defend Gari on DBL. They would not even hop for that..
We are talking about the actual numbers here. when I said 25 hop, I meant 25 " hoppers" the entire group could be 35 on EBG, and 25 will still hop to the ABL while only 7 go to DBL. It was awful.

Justine.6351:

I like Alpine BL alot, and dislike the Desert BL alot.
There is little that is going to break the stigma of dbl being bad regardless of how much dev time is thrown at it. It’s been repeated so many times, it’s engrained like waking up 1min before your alarm clock every mourning.

I feel for the devs who put the time into Desert BL :-(

My original suggestion was they allowed time and a buffer before even trying to bring up the DBL due to how much negativity is currently attached to it. There are a lot of hard feelings here from players who had their guilds torn apart over and destroyed entirely due this map and not having anyone seeming to listen to them for so long.

My original suggestion was bring back ABL ( then they did that) while players wait, then create a map from the ground up that is completely non desert related, say jungle, or lush or whatever, just as long as it is NOT desert. This map needs to be mild, skills friendly terrain, focused on benefiting every classes play style and keeping players in the nonstop PvP action the entire time they are on it. You start from spawn focusing on the player experience , 3 seconds out of spawn you hit an objective. Why do players want to fight over that objective ( give them a reason to) what strategic value to other targets does that objective hold? How does the battlefield work for both large scale and small scale fights for every class? 3 seconds.. you hit another objective..

The map needs to be designed with direct routes, bring players together to want to fight over objectives in open spaces focusing on enhancing the players PvP abilities.

They create this buffer map, then send it to beta and ask for actual feedback and poll on that feedback and make necessary adjustments according to the feedback, then test it again. When the community is happy with the map release it. Once the buffer map is released they can go back to fixing the DBL.

Then beta test the fixed DBL according to the feedback and not release it again until the community is happy with it.

Then players will be willing to give the DBL another shot if they actually show that things have changed, but trying to push it too soon the map would be better off scrapped than implemented without more repairs, community feedback and beta tests to make it a better map. Trying to do it too soon, players will not even try it after they make changes, they will think they already did.

Tyler Bearce.3427:

Hi guys, I just wanted to respond to a few concerns:

Why does this poll need a 75% majority?

• Honestly, we had a difficult time deciding if this poll should be decided by a simple majority, rather than a super majority. When we first decided to start polling, the team decided that whenever we are making a major change to the existing game, that change should require 75% of the community to agree to it. We wanted to avoid anything close to a 51/49 split. Mixed Borderlands definitely falls under the category of a major change to the existing game. However, what made the decision harder, was that polling only started relatively recently. Had this poll existed 6 months ago, before we ever started rotating borderlands, it likely would have been decided by a simple majority instead.

Why does this poll not have an option to remove the Desert Borderlands?

• As per the above, we require 75% to make a major change (like permanently removing DBL.) If we try to ask two, or more, 75% questions in a single poll neither is likely to achieve that requirement.
• Prior to this poll, the community reaction to the Desert Borderlands had seemed much more positive. Forum posts approved of the changes we had made to the map in the April 19th release, and were largely in agreement that the map had noticeably improved.
• We believed that those that were hostile to Desert would be less so if the Mixed Borderlands feature allowed Alpine to live in harmony with Desert, rather than replacing it for 3 months. So we wanted to provide this option before creating a poll about removing DBL altogether.

What’s next?

• We’ll poll the community to see if at least 75% of them would like to see the Desert Borderlands permanent removed. This won’t be next weeks poll, but likely the week after that.
• If players vote to remove DBL, then the results of this poll will be void (as we’ll only have one borderlands map.) Otherwise, we’ll move forwards with the results of this poll.

Thank you. I really do appreciate the efforts you guys have been making reaching out to everyone and trying to make a difference here.

I do wish these polls would be sent to past and present WvW players via email so you have a better chance at bringing in players who already left and increasing the game population longer term. Players will come back if you address the issues that made them leave in the first place, and reaching out to them would show how much things have changed from how they were.

For so long players concerns seemed to fall on deaf ears, reaching out to those players now would make them realize that is no longer the case. I think most of us here all want to see this game mode flourish and grow and bring in more players to where you need more servers, not less. Reaching out like this I think is a great way to get that started.

Shadelang.3012:

Unfortunately if the QQers get what they want and they remove the map forever. I don’t see anet ever making that big a time investment to WvW ever again. Pretty sure this will just be the end of anything new. Odds are the only changes WvW will get from here on are back ground changes. (like the scoring/reward changes)

If they throw out all the work they put into DBL. Why in the hells would they make the same risk again in the future? With that giant red warning sign over there heads the entire time.

In what way would that be beneficial to their game to make it grow? Learning from past mistakes means you actually learn from them. The issue is not new maps, the issue was the focus of the map.

Players WANT new WvW maps, they didn’t start polling players to see what they wanted until AFTER they made the bouncy choking PvE gobbly kitten map, not before. The problem is they put in all that work going the opposite direction of what players wanted instead of putting in all that work going in the direction players wanted. Just because they went the opposite direction that players wanted does not mean they cannot put forth the effort to go in the other direction now that they know that. This happened because they didn’t listen, if they listen the outcome will be much better.

They have a chance to make this the best large scale PvP game on the market, they would be crazy to let that chance get away from them. They can do it if they figure out what it takes to accomplish that goal and go for it.

dank.3680:

lil devils x.6071:

dank.3680:

lil devils x.6071:

too long winded.

You kittened in my cheerios.

Thanks for highlighting that the population declines had little to do with DBL and started long before.

As for the inferior comment.

Realize I am on MAG.. I see every single day KILL tag kittening and moaning in /map-/team at people if they play something like thief or ranger, telling them to leave WVW… I see the same attitude from KILL tags *every single day, regarding those who can’t or don’t want to be on TS with the server.

Not everyone likes voice comms or can use them, it’s fine to ask people to join you but your guild really needs to stop belittling people if they don’t.

Of course ONLY players from my guild hates rangers. Mhmm… I am sure that must be the case. Every commander has their play style, and we have many different commanders with different play styles. Choosing to not play as team in a team ( server vs server) game mode will always catch flak no matter what team sport it is you are playing. If you cant hear what people are saying, of course you miss what is going on and anger your teammates. That should be expected regardless of what team you play for. It is like standing in center field and letting the ball fall in front of you and expecting no one to yell at you for it.

Of course there was a decline prior to the DBL, I wasn’t aware anyone said there was not. The game just started hemorrhaging players at a much higher rate due to the DBL, not that it was the ONLY thing running players off. In fact the post you quoted above of mine were highlighting two of the other things upsetting players. Rewarding PvD and Siege damage on players are more reasons. I was under the impression though this particular topic was the impact of the DBLs on the game, not the other reasons players left. Players have been leaving for many reasons, this just happens to be a big one.

We were discussing THIS decline, not the others in this topic though since this was about the DBL’s here. The other reasons players left do not negate the masses who left over the DBL however.

I didn’t do anything to your cheerios. I Put Tabasco sauce in my brothers Spaghettios, not cheerios TYVM.

It’s like you think the whole server is part of your guild.. These are mandates you put on your guild not across a whole public server.

I do play as a “team” when I’m with my “team” aka my guild, maybe I would be willing to be on TS with them, but usually not.

People have personal reasons for not using TS or playing whatever class they want. Your guild has a right to deny such things within your own politics, but not across the whole server.

Bullies.

WvW is not GvG, it is server vs server. The entire server is YOUR team. You put these mandates on your team because that is the team you play for. Of course if you are standing out in center field your team is going to yell at you to get the ball. That is how team sports are played. This has nothing to do with a guild, it has everything to do with players on your team expecting all the players on their team to play as a team.

If this were only GvG, not WvW they would have nothing to say as you would not be on their team. You choose to be on their team every time you step foot in WvW, so you are either on the team or your not. You should expect your team to care what you are doing that affects your team. Playing whatever class you want is like everyone on the baseball team trying to play first base when you only need one first baseman. The moment you step into WvW you are on the same team regardless of how you or they feel about it, so we try to work as any team would.

LoL NooBs.5076:

To the DBL lovers: No, we don’t love ABL. No, we don’t take pleasure watching you suffer. It’s just that we can’t stand DBL.

I think that is one of the things that some are not understanding. Players LOVE new things when they are good. Players hate the DBL because it is not good. People just wanted to play on ABL until Anet makes the good WvW map the players deserve, not try to force this broken poo on them instead. They are not understanding that the players considered it unplayable at all.

The actual argument here is Wanting a map designed from the ground up with keeping players engaged with nonstop strategic, challenging, fun, PvP action the entire time they are on it vs wanting to play on a broken bouncy, gimmicky PvE wasting everyone’s time mess. Players would rather play on Alpine while they wait for a good map to be made, not have the DBL at all or never get new maps instead.

They actually put a map into live game play in a PvP game mode that some classes could not even use their skills on much of it and was abandoned during beta and wonder why players dont want to settle for them " making it playable" vs design one from the ground up that focuses on game play and player skills ? The entire map needs to be redone, the objectives need to be redone, the topography needs to be redone. It would be easier if they started over entirely and focused on player experience straight out of spawn. Straight out of spawn, 3 seconds hit objective, Why do players want to fight over that objective? Make it something worth fighting for so players WILL fight over it. What effect does that objective have on other nearby objectives? How does the terrain enhance each of the classes skills both Melee and ranged?.. another 3 seconds hit another objective.. ect

The DBL map was not designed for WvW or any other type of PvP game mode, it was just a mess..

gennyt.3428:

Hesacon.8735:

I’ve come to the conclusion that the majority of desert haters are a very very vocal minority of the overall population. The majority of the overall population will play whatever they’re given.

I’m going to have to call bullkitten. The DBLs were largely empty even in T1 unlike the ABL that have queues almost every night now. The “majority” of the overall population crammed themselves into EBG or quit when the DBLs were the only other option. My guild roster and friendslist reflected that too. Anet having your mentality is exactly the reason why WvWvW got to such a sorry state in the first place. Players can and will vote with their feet when they’re not having fun.

It wasn’t just your friendslist and guild roster, this happened regardless of tier, server, EU and NA servers both. It just got worse and worse and we just now began to have hope again when they brought back Alpine that they were listening. Players JUST came back and now they are ready to send them packing again. I won’t be able to convince anyone to come back this time if they mess it up again already.

dank.3680:

lil devils x.6071:

too long winded.

You kittened in my cheerios.

Thanks for highlighting that the population declines had little to do with DBL and started long before.

As for the inferior comment.

Realize I am on MAG.. I see every single day KILL tag kittening and moaning in /map-/team at people if they play something like thief or ranger, telling them to leave WVW… I see the same attitude from KILL tags *every single day, regarding those who can’t or don’t want to be on TS with the server.

Not everyone likes voice comms or can use them, it’s fine to ask people to join you but your guild really needs to stop belittling people if they don’t.

Of course ONLY players from my guild hates rangers. Mhmm… I am sure that must be the case. Every commander has their play style, and we have many different commanders with different play styles. Choosing to not play as team in a team ( server vs server) game mode will always catch flak no matter what team sport it is you are playing. If you cant hear what people are saying, of course you miss what is going on and anger your teammates. That should be expected regardless of what team you play for. It is like standing in center field and letting the ball fall in front of you and expecting no one to yell at you for it.

Of course there was a decline prior to the DBL, I wasn’t aware anyone said there was not. The game just started hemorrhaging players at a much higher rate due to the DBL, not that it was the ONLY thing running players off. In fact the post you quoted above of mine were highlighting two of the other things upsetting players. Rewarding PvD and Siege damage on players are more reasons. I was under the impression though this particular topic was the impact of the DBLs on the game, not the other reasons players left. Players have been leaving for many reasons, this just happens to be a big one.

We were discussing THIS decline, not the others in this topic though since this was about the DBL’s here. The other reasons players left do not negate the masses who left over the DBL however.

I didn’t do anything to your cheerios. I Put Tabasco sauce in my brothers Spaghettios, not cheerios TYVM.

TheGrimm.5624:

lil devils x.6071:

1) Let’s not cut the " Borderland GTFO" posts and let players have their say by giving them a real poll with the option to kick it to the curb on it so players can actually have their say on it instead of forcing them to leave the game over it again.

2)Plenty of people have expressed they have a problem with mixed BLS and have already said they are leaving over it… just read all the threads and posts on it, including the poll thread itself..

3)Yes there are real balance issues since whichever team that has the most players willing to go to the DBL will win since most servers have plenty of people who will not go there at all. If the same amount of players who will defend DBG and ABLs will not go to do the same for DBL on every server, of course it is going to create balance issues.

Mixed BL= broken game mode all the time
Rotating Bl = playable game mode part of the time
No DBL= playable game mode all of the time.

This is how it actually works now:
You have a Group of 25 that is hoping to all maps to defend all objectives. You hop to ABLs to defend/ attack keeps all 25 go and you can do so. You hop to EBG to defend and attack keeps all 25 go and you can do so.

This is how it works with mixed BL:
You have a Group of 25 that is hoping to all maps to defend all objectives. You hop to ABLs to defend/ attack keeps all 25 go. You hop to EBG to defend and attack keeps all 25 go. You hop to DBL only 7 will go. You cannot attack or defend keeps with 7. That means WvW is now a broken game mode for those who do this and many consider that unplayable.

Whatever peoples feelings on the DBL or whether or not they like it, does not change this from being the actual issue that will be caused by this. This is what is going happen regardless of the poll results. In reality we are voting on whether or not many players leave the game again due to the decision by Anet to push this on them regardless of what the previous polls and petitions already said about it.

Your premise is flawed. Even before DBL and HoT you would lose people when jumping from EBG to BLs and vice versa. You would also lose people jumping from BL to BL. This is not a new concept in WvW. Its been around since the start of the game. People already had map preferences then and people had to deal with it. We still have it today with just EGB and ABL back. If you want to claim its worse that fine, but don’t fool yourself, it existed before and exists now. That’s always been the issue between home BL people versus EBG people as well as havocs versus the other two.

We would lose scouts, or people we designated to stay, not lose the majority of the group simply due to them hating the map. This happens in guild runs, not just pug groups as well. This happened on an entirely different scale due to DBL hate, many guilds would refuse to respond to ANY calls for the DBLS at all. In the end, many just left the game all together over it instead.

It isn’t flawed, that is exactly what happens..
When our guild ran we had multiple map pins on multiple maps at once, this was an issue regardless of who tried to go DBLs or how many we started with.

Sarika.3756:

Some people aren’t talking here because they don’t want to be shouted down, told their opinions don’t matter or are wrong, end up trolled in game, or otherwise be treated poorly. Remember that they exist, too.

And some of them already believe that their interests won’t be heard or paid attention to by arena net, or that being insulted or shouted down for holding a different opinion isn’t worth it over a video game.

Sadly this is the case for most players. They usually just leave the game when the game developers do something that makes the game no longer fun for them. Most I know that left never said a word on forums, to Anet or anyone else why they left and said nothing to anyone until I asked them. IF Anet doesn’t actually ask those players ( they can via email if they want to just as I received the Surveys from them via email) they will never have their answers.

This is why I think it is important to actually just ask the past and present players and think the past players matter JUST AS MUCH as the present so Anet can fully understand what they are doing that makes players leave. They can actually bring people back if they make the right decisions and each out to their players and treat them like they do matter. It is when developers take a stance that they don’t care what the players want that it goes downhill pretty fast.

It would be better to ask people and allow the players to have an actual say than just to force things on to them. They should never forget that players do not have to play their game, they do so as long as it is fun for them. If it isn’t fun, they will not stay long. You cannot force people to do what they do not want to do. They may " settle" for a while, but in the end, they will go when they find something they actually enjoy instead.

TLDR:
Dear Anet,
Please Email your past a present WvW players over a certain rank and ask them what they want instead of trying to force this stuff on them and make them leave.

The thing they have to remember though is if players are unhappy with what they implement, the same thing that happened last time will happen again. Players will leave, and voice their dissatisfaction on here, reddit, gaming sites ect.. The game will lose numbers and players will move off to other games instead. When those players leave, the players who want to play with them will leave with them even if they were not as bothered with the changes. Then the players who want to play with them will not be far behind them.

It starts a chain reaction that results in many more players actually leaving the game than the ones they upset in the first place just so players can play games with the people they enjoy playing them with.

Honestly, Game developers should be working on trying to bring more players to their game than running them off instead. If a decision is actually going to decrease the population of a game, why would anyone in their right mind do that? I thought the objective is to grow the game and in crease players instead.

I agree that it would be better if we had all map layouts like EBG ( equal sides, objectives closer together, direct routes), but What I would like to see happen instead would be start out with ’ stationary maps" that are there all the time, and then have maps that are timed temporary EBG like maps that appear when all servers in a matchup hit 15 in queue that contribute the same as EBG does to the match and when servers drop population, they expire. This would allow more players to play at once solve the Queue issues during prime time and also allow to not have too much map to cover during slow periods. If everyone knows they are timed ahead of time, they wont cry if the siege disappears.

Rin of Rivvinda.4971:

So far it thus seems that no one has any issues with getting 2 different borders simultaneously. I personally like the suggestion to (in the future) see a 3rd border added so all three homes are different.

Again lest cut the “i do not want any dessertborderland at all” posts here, and discuss if there would be any real issue (balance wise) with (for now) having 1 server on a different borderland then the other 2.

1) Let’s not cut the " Borderland GTFO" posts and let players have their say by giving them a real poll with the option to kick it to the curb on it so players can actually have their say on it instead of forcing them to leave the game over it again.

2)Plenty of people have expressed they have a problem with mixed BLS and have already said they are leaving over it… just read all the threads and posts on it, including the poll thread itself..

3)Yes there are real balance issues since whichever team that has the most players willing to go to the DBL will win since most servers have plenty of people who will not go there at all. If the same amount of players who will defend DBG and ABLs will not go to do the same for DBL on every server, of course it is going to create balance issues.

Mixed BL= broken game mode all the time
Rotating Bl = playable game mode part of the time
No DBL= playable game mode all of the time.

This is how it actually works now:
You have a Group of 25 that is hoping to all maps to defend all objectives. You hop to ABLs to defend/ attack keeps all 25 go and you can do so. You hop to EBG to defend and attack keeps all 25 go and you can do so.

This is how it works with mixed BL:
You have a Group of 25 that is hoping to all maps to defend all objectives. You hop to ABLs to defend/ attack keeps all 25 go. You hop to EBG to defend and attack keeps all 25 go. You hop to DBL only 7 will go. You cannot attack or defend keeps with 7. That means WvW is now a broken game mode for those who do this and many consider that unplayable.

Whatever peoples feelings on the DBL or whether or not they like it, does not change this from being the actual issue that will be caused by this. This is what is going happen regardless of the poll results. In reality we are voting on whether or not many players leave the game again due to the decision by Anet to push this on them regardless of what the previous polls and petitions already said about it.

Anvil.9230:

Well I read that some people really didn’t like DBL ( )…

Solution seems easy: do not play on it, and leave those who enjoy it to use it.

Exactly the same resonning that people use to play on CBE or ABL, as some of them do not like the other one….

And we shouldn’t forget that the desert map is an investment. If it’s lost without finding a small place, it should be not so easy for someone to take the risk to invest money in any new map.

This is how it actually works now:
You have a Group of 25 that is hopping to all maps to defend all objectives. You hop to ABLs to defend/ attack keeps all 25 go and you can do so. You hop to EBG to defend and attack keeps all 25 go and you can do so.

This is how it works with mixed BL:
You have a Group of 25 that is hopping to all maps to defend all objectives. You hop to ABLs to defend/ attack keeps all 25 go. You hop to EBG to defend and attack keeps all 25 go. You hop to DBL only 7 will go. You cannot attack or defend keeps with 7. That means WvW is now a broken game mode for those who do this and many consider that unplayable.

Whichever team in the mathchup who has the most players willing to hop to DBL wins.

That is why many people are not happy with this decision. The only options in the poll mean you either get a broken game mode all the time or a playable game mode part of the time.