Guild Wars 2

King Amadaeus.8619:

Rob.7624:

Fenikkusu.1569:

Rob.7624:

Fenikkusu.1569:

What happened? ;oooo

Come into nsc vent

I was banned from all of them. XD I have my own ts if you want to talk there but I only have about 20 minutes.

unbanned

What the frack? You ladies air all of your laundry out here for everyone on 3 servers to see and just when it gets good you wanna go all private in your leet speak?

Surely we have underestimated the masters of troll.

Need drama

See, I already ruled out the 5v1 or xv1|x>1 scenario.
Honestly, you SHOULD have no chance against that many players.

Sebrent.3625:

If it was 5 Mesmers, I would escape. Why? They can’t just hit 2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2 to chase me when I lightning reflexes + swoop to escape.

Now 5 elementalists? Yeah, I’m screwed … but they had to at least use multiple skills. Pressing one button would allow me to escape :-)

My problem isn’t being killed by a group. My problem is the effectiveness to skill ratio. Thief’s is out-of-whack.

222222222 is hilarious…
Best comment, I ever read about 222222:
“I just CnD’d him. Then I shot him in the back as he heartseekered far away.”
Seriously, mindless 2222 spamming won’t bring them anywhere, even, if they are 5, unless you are fully gc specced and got no defensive skills whatsoever… If it’s a decent 5v5 with a decent group setup, that is.
And about running away from 5 mesmers: They drop veil, come in invis, suddenly pop up, immobilize you and you got 15 clones grouphugging you and exploding, while 5 invulnerable mesmers swing at you.
You throw out yout stun break and block through it, they break out their phantasms, now you got 10 phantasms and 5 mesmers out for blood, while they chain-stun you with their offhand pistols.
Yes. You can run like hell
Compared to that, 5 22222222 thieves are easy to manage

god, can you guys stop quoting the whole thing?
I think, we got it by now.

Dude, an organized group can do anything. You think it would make a difference, if it was 5 mesmers? hf with all those shatters/phantasms…
5 Guardians? Well, at least, you won’t kill them unless you bring 30 guys.
5 D/D eles? I so wanna see that Like 5 balls of lightning rolling at you and then unloading their rotations
Fact remains, organized groups>PUGs. Even more in open world pvp than in any other game. In games such as DotA, premade teams are hellish strong, but you get to work against them, cause you are constantly in that group of 5 guys… Till the bitter end… And most importantly, through multiple encounters and countless battles. On the other hand, GW2: Just some randoms, you just happened to meet and already getting ganked by 5 guys and having exactly that one encounter with the organized group? Who cares whether it’s thieves or rangers, they play together all the time, know eachother, coordinate perfectly…
It’s a one-shot competition and the ones who got practice in that kind of thing usually win.
Any organized group can rip you a new one, be it 5 or 10 players, you are fielding against their 5.

Nonfat.8742:

I love my warrmes (warrior+mesmer=warrmes) in PvE.

It’s important to learn each boss’s mechanics and know when to dodge. If you’re down all the time (wich in zerker gear can happen in a second of not paying atention) you don’t really help your team.

Then get zerker gear (im 98% zerker except of the 2 ascended accessorys that are knight and i have ptv stats on my sword,amulet and back). Will soon change those for even more damage

I use 20[III,X] / 20[II,X] / 0 / 25[II,VIII) / 5 with GS/sword+focus.

The ranged damage is great, iZerker hits like a truck, sword provides decent melee damage, “blurred frenzy” is realy something I can’t live without in this game, phantasmal warden is awsome and with focus traited for reflects and -20% on focus skills cd you contribute to the team overall success quite well.

Healing is ether feast.
Utility skills are changed depending on the needs, but I mostly run with feedback,nullfield and mirror images.

Elite no doubt is Time Warp but can be switched to mass invisiblity for some parts of certain dungeons (p3 arah wink wink).

Guess your so-called war mess has been level 80 for so long already, you don’t even think about the possibility, people might actually talk about mesmers < 80.

What’s wrong with solo roaming a necro?
I can tell you two necro builds right off the bat without ever having played one higher than level 9, which would just rip the thief apart. Just cause they have marks and wells doesn’t mean, they can only do group actions. Power-necros and critmancers are scary things.

Every class got at least one strong wvw build.
There is one notable exception:
Mesmer: More than 5(read: FIVE) very strong builds… And that’s only the generalized buildups. There’s a ton of varieties and hybrids out there.

If you look by which class can excel at everything, the following ones are out of it from the get-go:
-Guardian: Absolutely needs a group unless you are very good and your opponents morons.
-Thief: Pretty much the only class which is better off “surfing” the enemies zerg than the allied one Just absolutely bad in large scale fights…
-Warrior: Well, technically, you can make them do everything just cause they have such a huge hp pool and armor rating, you can allocate trait points and stuff in skills without a care, but they still won’t become good at it because of that. Warriors only shine in very few areas.

Then extract the ones who simply underperform:
-Engineer: Can do everything, can do it actually quite good but the result is a highly specialized machine which only excels at exactly that one task. Anything slighly out of the box will frag them within seconds.
-Ranger: Pet, pet, oh, the pet…

So basically, if you are looking for a class, which can do anything, the answer needs to be somewhere between Ele, Mesmer, Necromancer. Ironically, all the 3 light armor classes.
The necro needs to be taken with a grain of salt tho. You can build your necro to do anything you want him to do, much like an engineer, but he will be specialized on exactly that one task, tho not to the extent, the engineer will be. They still got margin for error.
Mesmers and Eles on the other hand are pretty much freestyle classes, where you can make hybrid builds which can be respecced for group fights, sieges, and solo play just by swapping out the weapons and possibly the armor.

So if I had to name the most powerful classes for WvW from the versatility standpoint, my vote gotta go with ele/mezz.
From the “impact on the enemy” standpoint, it’d be guard/mezz tho.

Difference is he has to run away or die, you don’t.
And you can run away like np… Most weapon sets only need to burn a single cooldown, add in LR and you burn 2 cooldowns. The thief needs to burn through his initiative to catch up(Infiltrator’s strike/infiltrators arrow) or use shadowstep or something else. His steal has a long cooldown, if he has just attacked you and you need to disengage, it will typically be off cd, and the rest can only be in your advantage, if he uses all that to catch up to you.

Falassion.8031:

When i started to play WvW i engaged an Ele with other 4/5 players. We chased him for a long and he has reached its tower and he is saved. But i say “Great Skill\Build” not “Ele is OP!!!!”.

It’s all about knowing what they do and do not immediately think that they are too strong.

Stealth it’s not invincibility. Use AOE and anticipates thief’s move.

but D/D for eles really is op :P
(slightly op, that is. Also, the reg on cantrip trait is slightly op while the rest is blatantly underpowered, forcing eles into that one build, if they want to do anything besides group support/long range fireball spam)

And?
If you are always prepared, it doesn’t matter when they choose to attack you.
They can wag their tail, looking for an opening all day long, cause I can do something useful while they do absolutely nothing.
No matter, how you look at it, the game is about using your time efficiently. A thief may kill you in the end, if he has patience and waits for the right moment, but he was useless all that time.
If he just jumps at you, he dies, if he chooses, when to engage, you dictate, under which conditions he can do so.
If he chooses not to fight, then that’s that, your win. If you drive him off, he wasted time stalking you while accomplishing nothing. Your win. If you actually kill him, it’s your win either way.
No matter how, a thief will have to come at you and at that moment it doesn’t matter what build he has, you just have to be ready and beat him down.
Already a greatsword is devastating to the thief. Don’t wanna start with condition bunker rangers(shoutout to xsorus: PAIN INVERTER!!!!!!!) or trappers.
Sure, he can cnd off your pet and reg in stealth… Already looked at the regeneration uptime on rangers? He resets the fight, you reset the fight, all over again. With the difference that he dies when he does a slight mistake, while you got a way larger margin of error, if you use half your brain capacity(important: Never waste more than half your brain capacity on a single thief, you gotta keep wary of your surroundings. Nothing more painful than a sudden 2v1 with a thief in the mix)

Thieves die as soon as you as much as look at them.
To make up for that, they will have to sacrifice huge chunks of their “op” damage.
Really. If you have problems fighting a thief, just look at the predictable course of their attacks. You can lead a thief into blowing his attacks into thin air like a matador leads the bull to charge right past him.
To learn to fight against thieves:
First step is reacting.
Second step is a preemptive reaction before they even strike.
And the third step is making them attack you right where you got a counter prepared.
Just wait, till Anet actually FIXES thieves, so they have more options, then you can start crying. For now, thieves are pretty much straightforward and easy to deal with unless you are fighting multiple opponents, where it can happen, you get your priorities wrong and the thief gibs you.
But that’s that and this is this: Thieves are not op. Solo, they are easy to deal with, in group fights, they are worthless either way.
Chain some CC and damage and they are dead. Make them waste their initiative and they are useless for the moment.
Sure, they can retreat and reengage again, but that only means, they give you time to prepare for their next attack.

there is stuff like condition duration increments…
you may be able to dodge out of 1 second immobilize every second but you can’t dodge out of 1.1 seconds immobilize every second.

how’s that a problem with mesmers?
I’d say it’s a problem with the confusion condition.

Just like all the “nerf warriors, nerf golem rushing, nerf thief burst” cries which were “fixed” by nerfing quickness(and throwing rangers further into the gutter).

Chokolata.1870:

I would much rather see a significant mesmer and thief nerf then a ranger buff . LOL

Which part of mesmers needs a significant nerf?
Just tell me one particular thing about a particular build which needs a nerf.
You gotta see, the only problem with mesmers is the fact, they actually WORK the way, they are supposed to, while most other professions do not.

Just look at:
Ele: Weapon sets, traitlines… In the case of the ele, it might even boil down to D/D being OP rather then the rest being UP.
Thief: Traps and all the tactical awesomeness you are supposed to be able to do (efficiently)
Ranger: Spirits and supportive builds, versatile BM builds, …
Engineer: The good news: Almost no build is really less viable than the rest, with HGH builds being slightly on the top. The bad news: Engi as a whole needs some loving.
Warrior: See engineer, replace HGH with GS.
Necro: The trait system might need a complete rework. Some tweaking is certainly required.

Guardian is working fine, might need some nerf here and there and a tweak on spirit weapons.

The thing about Mesmers is not that they are op in any way. The problem is, that they need to burn away half of your hp before you can figure out what they are up to, cause there is so many different Mezz builds out there while all the other classes are pretty much predictable.
If all the classes worked as intended, Mesmers wouldn’t stand out as much anymore.
For example, if you couldn’t tell at first glance, what the thief, you are facing, is gonna try to do, … If you didn’t know whether the ele might not suddenly burst out 2 arcane spells and kill you within seconds, instead of being a cantrip bunker, …
I can continue the list endlessly, fact remains, mesmers are the only class with more than 3 working builds and the builds actually are entirely different regarding how you need to counter them.
The way to fix this problem, however is not crippling mesmers to one viable build(I don’t wanna fight only shatter burst mesmers, seriously, as annoying as confusion etc is, the thing I hate the most is actually shatter burst) but fixing other classes, so they have more than one viable build or, in case of engi and warriors, raising the class as a whole by a level or two, so they can compete on even footing.

Bazeleel.8219:

My only issues with rangers atm is that kitten root skill! Hate that bloody thing!

Word…
Actually, with S/P, you’d have plenty ways of dealing with it
It’s friggin annoying tho. Especially with ranged weapons, you have to click the roots manually. I mean, a mesmer just swaps to sward, becomes invulnerable and mows the thing away. Or swaps to staff and phase retreats out, or, or, or, or…
Thief only got shadow shot, shadowstep, infiltrators strike, steal, infiltrators arrow, pistol whip, … Well and Death Blossom, which would be a huge waste of initiative tho

Robert Hrouda.1327:

VitalSuit.1980:

Thieves as well? I hope this is only for pve and not pvp because thieves are the last thing that needs a buff.

Most thieves don’t make it out of the lower tiers because you can mitigate them very easily. As a ranger I shut thieves down all the time who don’t use venoms, especially if you have something like healing spring and Lightning reflexes. One fixes stun, one fixes immob/cripple, and then it’s just dodge rolls at the right moment and CC to shut them down. Also bring wolf for f2 and stay nearby when thieves start doing their stealthy bit, and then be ready to watch them flee in terror.
That of course means their build options are highly limited, and when that happens people can hard counter you more easily.

The changes for rangers coming in this next patch are a step in the right direction for them. I am not part of that team so I won’t be announcing any of the changes unless told otherwise.

Exactly this.
Why are Thieves mostly easymode(whether my LB/GS full zerk ranger can fend off a backstab thief depends entirely on whether my skills just happen to be on cooldown) while Mesmers are extremely difficult to deal with?
Clones? Confusion? Don’t make me laugh. The reason is that Mesmers are unpredictable, cause they got a bootload of entirely different builds from full support over glamour over clone spam over phantasms to shatter burst… Often times, you only know what you are up against when half your hp is already missing. Thieves? Either they are cond thieves or they are backstab thieves with the odd sword control thief here and there… And that is something, you can usually see at the first glance… And honestly, fighting a thief is a bit like fighting a bull. You just lead their predictable attacks into nothing, counter and burst for the kill.

Sadistis.4257:

I predicted we would be in T7 2 weeks before we move up. first week we go to green second week we leave ^.^

I predicted 4 weeks… Couldn’t know, IOJ would still be losing that many points despite being the definite underdog already…

Got my mezz to 20 with some sort of scepter+x+shatter spam build…
…Then the good girl got deleted, cause I needed to free up a slot and she just happened to bore me…

yiishing.9057:

challenge accepted.
around 60 golems from elonas reach – easter sunday

Kinda reminds me again, why I use the english language packs…
Heck, even the titles sound awful :X

Melandru runes actually work for me in spvp. Don’t have a real mezz toon, so spvp only.

By the way, my very first thought when playing this build and raking in the first kills:
“This is, what Catmaster Rangers want to be when they are all grown up.”
Really, every ranger who tried to sacrifice every last bit of utility in order to squeeze a little bit more damage out of his Jaguar is gonna cry when he sees, how effortless Mesmers can put out these numbers.
Of course, the ranger will probably be more tanky than the mezz :P

tested out the build for a bit.
The Sigil of Hydromancy helps a lot in clashes…
But the build really needs more CR. Already an elementalist can put that much burning on you, that you die from the conditions. Any dedicated condition spammer will rip you a new one… And I ran friggin healing mantra, giving me 3 cleanses within ~12 seconds.
Might think about getting restorative mantras and throwing mantra of resolve into the mix…
It’s not that the build is weak or anything, but if I die from conditions after I killed 3 guys at once, it tells me, the build is slightly over the top in the damage department and might need some adjustments :P

Trying, if I can overcome the conditions with melandru runes for now.

Fuzzion.2504:

While we are at it can we also have a bazooka pew pew

Roll a charr…

Gkitten24:

The thing that annoys me about that quesion is that people assume there is a mesmer sitting around all day in the JP just waiting for people to ask…I mean really???

Why not?
Transport service. Have some guys rotate and do this on a daily basis 24/7. Rules are simple. You get the loot, the mezz gets the siege(which he then gives to a commander).
ALso, a mezz can do the JP, then wait there till the big zerg got time… Whole zerg makes JP in 3 minutes flat.
Mezz+jp=<3

King Amadaeus.8619:

Luke.8295:

Yawn…..wake up and everything is green, figures…….

Well it is springtime.

Heh…
Looking over to my own matchup, I am afraid, spring time started here too

Btw, you also gotta take care to place the spirit properly.
It doesn’t matter whether you got the buff, the important thing is that the siege weapon gets the buff.

Fuzzion.2504:

Coldviper.6794:

If you’re looking for perfectly fair fights where gear plays no role you’ll have to play spvp. WvW is quite gear dependant and requires organization. If you just jump in and kitten around by yourself you won’t accomplish much. Many servers have communities that use a voice chat program which makes for a lot of fun.

If you are on JQ we have a community teamspeak.

pretty much every server has by now…

The logan build:
Skill bar:
Retreat! Retreat! Retreat! Retreat! Retreat!

Rytlock is right.

As mentioned before, running around alone is not a good idea, especially with a guardian. (Guardian just got absolutely no way of getting out of a tight spot)

There are a lot of people out for blood on the map, these usually solo or run in a small pack and are fully specced for mobility and dueling. If you run into a mesmer specced for dueling, who runs in full exotics and got all food boosts etc up, you are toast when you use a makeshift build and run around in all greens. If you run into a warrior, who […], you are toast too. Even more, cause you might be able to outrun the mesmer but your guardian will never outrun a warrior.
Also, another important hint: You should at the evry least get “Stand your ground”. It’s amazing, cause it gives 2 of the strongest boons in the game(retal and stability) on a very short cooldown while being a stun breaker. Or at the very least get judges intervention. You need some form of stun breaker when running with a zerg and you need two of them when running solo.

You probably picked one of the harder classes to learn WvW, cause a Guardian is toast when he’s caught off position. Pretty much every class got skills which allow you to get out of a tight spot… Guardians simply don’t. On a sidenote, the hardest class to learn wvw is probably the engineer. It seems, engineers can’t even spell the word “reposition”. Sure, they got rocket boots to knock themself down

Then what about thieves with shadow shot?
(lol, I’m so gonna rebuild my thief to P/D just to laugh at glam mesmers)

RyuDragnier.9476:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Brassnautilus.2941:

RyuDragnier.9476:

How is this nerfing ranger at all?

if they nerf the immob, chances they nerf rangers on ballista too

Out of curiosity, what do rangers have on ballista? Moment of Clarity?

From what I can tell, only our spirits. Oh wow, 10% bonus damage with a 35% shot of that…which rarely comes into effect. Arrow carted numerous players with my spirit out just to see if it works. Out of the volley that occurred from shooting it 30 times into a pile of 20 players, it kicked in only once. It’s not worth it IMO.

Aurust.8961:

DONT nerf this… Its one of the few ways in the game that a much smaller force can take out a larger one.

This game already favors zerging far too much.

Oh they’ll nerf it…and then give us an Arrow Cart Mastery ability line that will give us the ability to immobilize with arrows as the first ability.

the spirit has an internal cd of 10 seconds(that’s why it sucks to begin with) but with long recharge attacks like the ones from trebs and ballistae, it can be devastating.
You may laugh, but ~5% more damage against a wall means ~5% more repair costs and that the wall will be down 5% faster.
Of course, on arrow carts, it does nothing remarkable, but trebs really love this stuff.

If for one class, then for every class. I’d say:
-MH pistol for Mezz
-Torch for Necros
-Sword for Elementalist (omgbrokenlol they get 12 new skills while we get only 2)
-Torch for Thieves
-Guardian????
-Warrior? mby mainhand shield?:D:D nah, dunno^^ Prolly pistols…
-Engineer gets a mace(prolly gonna charge it and strike you with lightning)
-Rangers get a shield

try something funky: Max out endurance gain with 2 sigils of energy, a full set of adventurer runes, vigor on heal and any 15 sec cd heal(both are good for this build actually)
Grab caltrops on dodge, skill caltrops and just keep dodging all over the place.
Weapons dagger/dagger and a shortbow… Might need giver’s weapons and rare veggie pizza to work properly tho, cause your condition duration will be rubbish

On a more serious note, any standard condition build is actually quite fun.

just a random thought: if you really are swapping weapons like crazy, how about throwing in sigils of Hydromancy?
As your weapon swap is purely defensive anyway and you swap weapons as soon as you can, you will have 33% chill uptime on your opponents.
Just keep swapping weapons and you might even be able to punch through a 1v3 situation with the insane damage of your phantasms, as the chill allows you for some nice positioning advantage… Especially cause you don’t have endless clones with crippling dissipation.

there once was a picture posted in a similar thread.
To be precise, it were 3 pictures.
Picture 1: 80 guys at one spot
Picture 2: 2 necros and a mesmer approaching the guys
Picture 3: 60 corpses lying in a feedback bubble, null field, chaos storm and a couple wells, with 20 guys getting out of the clusterkitten at 20% hp.

But well, that was that and this is this. Back then, shout heals etc had no AoElimit, so they stacked for an entirely different purpose.
A group stacked to abuse mass heal while spamming ranged attacks falls to this. A group which only stacks to break out of a portal and wipe everything with earthshaker chaining does not.
However, Necros and Mesmers are still the best counter.

Edit: back there there was a second suggestion: Build 3 omega golems and portal bomb them back!

Return revealed to 3 sec but introduce the revealed when coming out of stealth, regardless of whether you attacked or not!

drop a smoke field and lose 3 conditions maybe?
(bargaining mode activated)

randomfightfan.4091:

Considering that before those thieves only had bleeds to work with (which did nothing due to super easily obtainable cleanses), I wouldn’t feel the least bit bad about giving them 1 stack of confusion every few seconds. Makes it so it’s not super easy to completely nullify a build’s entire souce of dps (not to mention what would happen if you were stacking those against a necro or mes :s Feel bad for the thief already).

Just get 15 points in deadly arts and your bleeds aren’t easy to clean anymore, cause every choking gas, every steal and every spider venom attack, you throw out, will create 2 cover conditions.

^Someone once posted the template for a dps staff build, where you just stay in fire attunement and autoattack to deal max damage after you dropped your control fields…

Probably in this thread somewhere:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/elementalist/The-wrong-way-to-play-ele/first
or somewhere else, dunno… cant find it…

When I read the title, I immediately thought “first world problems”…
First off, nobody forces you to put 30 points into arcana. If you think that way, it’s your own problem… Tho I have to admit, of all the “special ability traitlines”, Arcana is probably the one with the biggest impact on the game.
Steal cd? Burst skill damage? Bah…
Virtue cd? Shatter cd? Toolbelt cd? Deathshroud? Meh…
Pet attributes? Now we are talking!
Arcana? WANT TO HAVE!!!!

But theres also builds which just can’t fit that arcana in anymore.
Of course, the baseline is strong already. Attunement cd is our bottleneck and boon duration is hot stuff in general. But that’s only for quickly rotating builds.

Use a ranger and contest their keeps by sending your pet to attack the gate from 3.5k range. Problem solved, both sides got contested keeps…

Why only consumables?
I’m pretty sure, some elementalist would love to put his spare staff into such a bar for quick weapon swapping purposes

I wanna go around carrying a skritt
they are cute and fluffy

Just go play spvp, then you will see people fighting for glory!
Just cause Anet decided to name it that way… I’d call it “standing in circles points”…
That mentality is all over the place due to the direct way, bonuses are gicen for specific tasks in this game. Why go out and do something useful if you get rewarded when you group hug in this circle for another 20 seconds?
Why go out and siege something which is defended when you can get more wxp flipping undefended objective after undefended objective?
The system was never thought through and they just tried to fix it with another implementation of the VERY SAME SYSTEM.
Some people never learn, it seems :P

Any chance to get something like this running in PvP?
Just to troll, you know
Bunker guardian: “Cute, an elementalist, well, this is gonna take a whi – WHAT THE EFF?”

Your tier sounds interesting…
On Drakkar lake, WE are the ones with the big karma trains(and we run into a wall every time we meet a server with slight organisation…)

Can send a pet from 3k range to attack the gate!

Once again.
Get caltrops asap. They make things easier.
Use pistol whip or death blossom against groups.
Use a shortbow to stay at a distance.
Use either P/D or D/P against Vets and Champs.
Also get a feel for the steal mechanic. Nothing like backstabbing a feared ghost

You should distinguish between “real” zergs with swarm intelligence and mindless karma trains.

How about scaling it slightly more flat?
Not distributing it equally but more like every player gets X+a split of the pot.
X is a fixed number which never changes, the pot is a fixed number, says, Y+some factors like upgrades on the objective, number of defenders etc.

-You are always guaranteed to get X.
-People barging in will not take away from your WXP gain unless the objective is upgraded and defended, in which case you should be GLAD they are helping.

Basically, my proposal with totally fictional numbers:
WxP for the tower: 100(Base). The split pot gets another 2000 points because the tower is fully upgraded(else, it’d be only 500) and another 500 points because more than 5 but less than 10 players are defending.
Number of participants: 25. 15 of them get gold, 5 get silver, 5 get bronze cause they came in in the last minute and managed to tag an NPC.

Bronze gets 25% of base, no split from the pot. All bronzes get 25 WXP.
Silver gets 75% of the base, count as 1 in the split pot,
Gold gets 100% of the base, count as 2 in the split pot.

Split rewards: 5 silvers + 2×15 gold = 35. 2500/35 = 71. Every player with silver participation gets 71 + 75 = 146 WXP, every player with Gold participation gets 100 + 2×71=242 WXP.

Numbers are probably too high but I think, the system came across.

Also, yet another problem: FIX THE PARTICIPATION SYSTEM!
You can really to almost everything for the group and just fight some opponent on the wall while your zerg rushes by and stands in the circle and you will only get silver reward. People should not be rewarded so heavily for standing idle in circles.