anyone else notice a serious bug with this thing? the rez doesnt work if SoN is summoned on a slope, even if the downed player is right beside it. it has failed me in dugeons and WvW one too many times.
gonna play devil’s advocate here. i get what you guys are saying, youre trying to see the positive in a sea of mediocrity.
traps – so im supposed to be the narrow corridor specialist? traps are next to useless in the open world. trap rangers are squishy, and i kill them all the time. the range on trap throw is much too small. necros, eles and engies do a much better job in this situation anyway.
longbow – youre right, you dont need to talk about it. it’s a terrible weapon. unless youre inside the keep, any build relating to the LB will get you killed. Rapid Fire burst is negated by a single dodge roll, or even strafing at 600-900 distance. past 900, the LB hardly lands any arrows unless the target is stationary or perfectly in line with the projectile path.
pet – i actually played a pet-centric build with the LB, and ive successfully unloaded 25k bursts on people. but it’s gimmicky, unreliable and done better by a warrior or thief. wasting a utility slot on Search and Rescue in pvp is the silliest thing ive heard in a while.
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yes please /15char
i cant find a use for my ranger in WvW. and i’ve pushed him to the max.
- long range sniping – done way better by GS mesmers and rifle warriors
- spirits suck – even if they weren’t instakilled, their buffs and actives are useless
- burst – done way better by just about every single profession
- chasing – not bad, but again, done way better by warriors, thieves and d/d eles
- sieging – barrage? send pet over wall? not bad, but i’d rather play a mesmer, ele, engie, or necro for this
i already rolled with PVT and zerker gear, LB and GS for long range engagements/sniping/burst. i found this to be just alright at times. most of the time, i’d be easily dispatched by thieves. and my biggest issues with the build was that Rapid Fire burst even with QZ was virtually negated by a single dodge roll.
right now im using a bunker BM build to distract thieves until my group kills them. this is by far the most useful thing i can do as a ranger. as opposed to my meditation guard, who wrecks WvW by providing serious buffs, virtually unlimited CC, and decent burst all with one build.
this isnt just an angry pointless post, which is how i feel as a ranger. id love some tips!
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it removes every condition you have every 10 seconds as long as your pet is alive. easily the best grandmaster trait in the game.
two builds that i use:
20/30/0/0/20, berseker/soldier’s gear, LB/GS/cats. used for long range sniping and sieges.
0/10/30/10/20, clerics gear, GS/sword/dagger/birds. used for skirmishing, taking points, bunkering in smaller engagements.
both builds have amazing burst. a note on pets. you dont need 30 in BM. Natural Healing sucks, and the extra 10 points are usually better spent elsewhere. also, no need to go 30 into marks. just go to 20 for piercing arrows. skirmishing is essential for LB builds for the LB CD reduction (more rapid fire, more barrage), and the crit.
runes for the top build should be Thief for precision and additional dmg while flanking. cheap too. runes for my bottom build should be Dwayna for healing.
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anything other than what we have now. thief is 2-dimensional and probably needs the most work out of all the profs.
ranger is very good. one of the best duelists in the game. good builds are more attrition based. pure burst ranger builds are laughable.
some of you are missing the major point. a properly executed BS combo cannot be seen coming, and cannot be dodged, unless youre spamming your evasion moves blindly. the burst itself can be spammed. thieves have the largest and most reliable single target burst in the game.
perhaps culling is the main culprit, perhaps not. but the reason well-played BS thieves are dreaded by most players (experienced or otherwise) is that their burst cant be avoided on demand, like it can be for shatter mesmers and d/d eles. while the latter are the superior specs, the player always has the opportunity to react and fight back. mesmer and ele burst is always telegraphed, which is key in a skill-based game. non-telegraphed burst just doesnt belong in this game.
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GS/sword/dagger is the typical setup for a high sustain beastmaster. ive been experimenting with SB/sword/dagger, and there are a few notable advantages and disadvantages:
advantage SB:
- spammable cripple, gives you almost perma cripple with dagger and sword.
- long range stun/daze
- additional poison, allowing for good poison uptime on a target
- has an evade
advantage GS:
- #3 is leap finisher, gap closer and escape
- #4 = damage immunity
- auto-evade every once in a while (works better with quickness)
overall, GS will give you more sustain, and SB will give you more dps and control.
MH axe imo only works for condition builds. OH axe is miserable and needs a major buff. #4 is useless and #5 needs to be cast while moving.
i use LR, SoH, SoW, and SoN on my beastmaster.
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oh, is that what it sounds like to you? that’s great. im sure youre right on.
except you have no idea what i play, with whom i play and at what level i play. the issues i raised, actually, have been raised by the top pvp’ers who want this game to be more successful at the competitive level, and more bearable for casuals.
Low skill cap? What class has an absolutely high skill cap in this game?
in my opinion, not that it matters, the following specs have a high skillcap in tpvp (some because it takes seriously good awareness and decision making to survive or be effective competitively): bunker ranger, power necro, bunker necro, any engie spec, any warrior spec, dps guard, staff ele
there are effective, lower skillcap builds that are balanced (because theyre true glass cannon, can be seen and focused): wellmancer, trap ranger
profs that dont have a high skillcap are the ones that allow you to drop targets constantly, or spam boons. so thieves, mesmers, d/d eles, bunker eles and bunker guards. they also happen to be dominating the meta. not only are they easy to learn, but theyre also the most effective.
bunker necros, engies, and rangers are really fun to play, and to play against. theyre fun to play because they take a lot longer to learn than your typical facerolling guard or ele, and they can actually be countered. engies have a more limited sustain compared to the rest, while ranger and necro lack stability and can be crushed by a well placed immoblize and daze/stun. this cannot be said for stability/boon spamming ele and guard.
anyway, my beef with mesmers? it’s obvious, and non-deluded top tier players would agree
1. they change the game too much with time warp and portal
2. can drop targets and reset fight on demand
3. highest sustainable burst in the game
4. spammable AOE that hits bloody hard
so why does a single spec have access to all that? if #1 and #4 were removed, i would be happy. the shatter mesmer is easily as stupid and ridiculous as the d/d ele and the BS thief. these low skillcap builds need to be abolished to make way for more variety, and a more interesting meta. people priding themselves on playing such builds need to have a look in the mirror, and start advocating on the forums for change.
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honestly, i wanna see shatter mesmers nerfed into the ground. it’s a cheap, low skillcap, facerolling spec. i want portal and timewarp gone. hopefully mindwrack sees a 20% damage decrease on the 28th. that would be a step in the right direction.
there’s only one best bunker build. it was posted before. it goes 0/10/30/10/20. sword/dagger/GS/Dwayna/ravens. high evasion, high healing, high burst. you can attempt a similar condition build with THC gear instead of THP, and cats for bleeding.
healing spring is essential, absolutely no argument needed there. u need it for leap finishers and condition clearance.
My – last – hopes: custom arenas allowing us to do deathmatches (gw1 arena basically) and remove the down state.
The downed state gives this game so much flavour. Why would you want to get rid of that?
downed state is here to stay, it’s awesome, it adds depth, it’s fun. it’s not going away. deal with it please.
There are no athletes in this game. It’s all about gimmicks, zerging, and merry-go-rounding.
shows how little you know, and how youre not even willing to learn. maybe youre having a tough time in spvp, who knows. but i agree that we need a lot more build variety. devs know this too.
yeap, pets are in a pretty bad shape, but i dare not start a thread about it because id rather they focus on spirits and pet AI than anything else
they just need to balance the birds. right now, there’s no reason to use any other birds except ravens, due to the fact that their f2 does so much more damage.
it’s a good idea to buff other thief builds and nerf the cheese BS build, which is not fun to play against, and as we’re beginning to see, it’s not fun to play either. most players prefer higher skillcap specs that are rewarding when mastered.
fyi, it’s a mistake focusing on healing + vitality. primary stats should be healing + toughness, because healing synergizes a lot better with toughness. so youre either going THC (shaman’s) or THP (cleric’s). dont think you’ll have durability without healing…i went PVT (soldier’s) and was disappointed. u cant skirmish without +healing.
well hotjoin needs to go alltogether. there are too few people playing, and the pop should be divided between only two modes: 1v1 team tourneys, and custom arenas. anything more at this point would be a mistake.
no, not at all. custom arenas will be a huge success, probably the only upcoming feature to revitalize spvp. custom rules, themed servers, easier to organize duels, etc. yes please.
matchmaking is coming out at the same time in addition to 1v1 team tourneys. i never felt the need for more maps. new game modes can wait. this isnt where variety is needed. we need build variety. the playground is next to irrelevant.
Entire e-sport idea for GW 2 is bad imo.People who play MMORPGs dont play them for e-sport features.Played AoC, WoW ,WAR,SWTOR and i dont remember devs in those games trying to force this e-sport
those games had the most atrocious pvp ive ever played in my life. and i played most online pvp games, MMO’s included. you cant even compare to GW2.
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less than 281. my guess is closer to zero.
i guess QP may not have the most obvious relationship with representation. my point is pretty much every team rolls with a thief roamer because of how much reliable faceroll burst it can dish out. it’s the best at what it does. i was just countering the guy who said thieves are middle of the pack, which they are not. they are top dogs along with shatter mez, d/d ele, and bunker guard
why are you looking at top 10? those guys just play more.
id like to see the following:
- increased projectile speed on the LB
- more improvements to pet pathing and survivability in dungeons
- shout rework
- spirit rework
anything less is kind of unacceptable because these things are very broken.
Point is, thiefs are middle of the pack in terms of spvp, despite backstab being what it is. Nerf back stab and youll drive theifs down to where engies are or worse.
you missed the entire point of the discussion. everyone is calling for more build diversity for the thief so that the OP build can be nerfed. further, just because there’s one viable build, doesnt mean it’s ok for it to be out of line.
also, if you look at QP ranks, you’ll notice that thief is one of the most represented profs.
they said they were reworking shouts and spirits. what did we get?
- sic em slightly buffed
- +15% proc chance to spiritslolzworthy.
This isn’t blizzard who just super buffs/nerfs things until they finally (never) get it right, anet fine tunes things very, very, very, slowly until it’s at their liking, so we’re likely to see a few more buffs to spirits and shouts before they’re in a good place…
Btw, S&R got buffed in both your pet gains 50% speed increase approaching the target, and it heals for more health than it used to, so SHUSH since you clearly aren’t paying attention to buffs.
horribly useless outside of dungeons. all shouts are useless in spvp. putting one in your utility slot, instead of a signet, trap or survival skill, is an autoloss. guard and sic em have a place in wvw. i do pay attention, but prefer not to be ignorant.
doesnt matter, wait for nerf. let them enjoy it for a few more weeks.
Pretty tough to take anything you say seriously at this point when you have created a thread complaining about BS thief, created a thread complaining about condi/stealth thief, posted in the power well necro thread about how OP they are, posted in the d/d ele thread about how OP they are —- yet in all of these claimed that you never die to any of them… mmmk. Just sayin, starting to get a bit tired and annoying… imo of course.
who’s complaining? im simply summarizing the way the community feels. and you will take me seriously when these nerfs occur, which they will.
aoe has been on the chopping block for a few months, and the only reason they havent nerfed the BS thief is because they havent had the time to open the box full of crap that is the thief, i.e. they havent had the chance to buff all its other builds before nerfing the only “viable” one.
make combos stronger, balance them better (aoe invisibility vs. whirling fire finisher, lol) and we’ll be seeing more use.
I think this is an interesting topic for discussion that has been ignored.
Some combo effects are very interesting, but especially when they have weapon sets dedicated to them. For example, Scepter/ Dagger for elementalists has a really cool might-stacking theme through self-combos that works really well with it.
But then some of those combos, for example those that create auras, seem very arbitrary, except for eles traited for auras. Those combos aren’t usually very integrated into weapon sets (that I’m aware of), they depend on what your opponent does, and sometimes they are simply weak (fire aura is very unimpressive no matter what, frost aura is very conditional).
Also, those effects aren’t always consistent. Why do you need a leap to create an aura in a fire field, but with an ice field, youcreate an aura not with a leap, but with a blast? This makes things harder to memorize for beginners, and further strengthens the idea that some of the effects are simply arbitrary, and not worth bothering with.
We need more focused effects like S/D ele might-stacking or GS Guardian condition removal/ retaliation effects, and less “here’s a little bonus for you that you might not even need or notice” effects. And I think we need this especially for party-coordenated combos, not only for weapon sets with set-combos. Less niche effects, and more “we need to coordenate around this party combo to outdo our opposing party”.
leap and blast finishers on water fields are amazing, and all combo fields should be as good in a different way. blast on ethereal is also great. projectile on chill is great. there are just certain ones that are awful.
so yes, effects need to be greater across the board so that people actually start caring about coordinating combo fields.
oh ok only bads on point cant dodge the 10 AOE abilities that a scepter/dagger/staff/well spamming necro has at his disposal. maybe because theyre on point? and the aoe covers the entire circle? and it’s spammable? >.<
doesnt matter, wait for nerf. let them enjoy it for a few more weeks.
If the GW2 community wish for a 5dps VS 5dps, that’s what you will get ,
the hell are you talking about? nobody wants this. people want durable specs, support specs, CC specs, mobility specs. you name it. people just dont want bunkers and d/d eles to be a requirement of competitive play.
Well my current main profession and gameplay type currently is S/D – D/D Thief in WvW. So I’m not sure if that eliminates me from the discussion.
well it kinda does man. you just dont see the situation for what it is because, maybe, youre having too much fun abusing culling. in my opinion, youre an exploiter of a broken mechanic. but i cant ask everyone to boycott the thief in wvw, so i sort of accept it for what it is: inefficient allocation of dev resources. people will always abuse these things, regardless. it’s up to the devs to get on these problems as soon as they appear, not 5 months later (im talking about poor thief balancing, not culling).
culling or no culling, some aspects of the thief are more than annoying. theyre actually too effective for little to no risk to the thief. due to how much survivability stealth gives. mesmers are guilty as well.
they said they were reworking shouts and spirits. what did we get?
- sic em slightly buffed
- +15% proc chance to spirits
lolzworthy.
make combos stronger, balance them better (aoe invisibility vs. whirling fire finisher, lol) and we’ll be seeing more use.
SoS and Protect Me have no role in the current metagame. simply because high burst specs can spam their burst. so you get to dodge one burst with a long CD ability? youre dead the next time around.
this is why high evasion/healing builds are greatly favoured. evasion and regen can be spammed as well.
conquest is boring
i disagree. conquest with lots of build variety and non-reliance on bunkers can actually be a lot of fun.
Stiv has established himself as a thief-defending zealot, that much is clear. p/d is absolutely disgusting in wvw, and an annoyance in spvp due to a virtual godmode. denying this is silly.
youre absolutely correct. so if im missing 20% of my health, im dead. i wouldnt mind getting bursted down from 60%. thats a lot more reasonable. again, not asking for tips, or discussing the bunker ranger. please stop hijacking the thread. if u can think of an alternative buff/nerf for the thief, please discuss it instead of diverting attention to my abilities and credibility.
this is a well known, serious issue and id like for discussion to continue.
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i could be handling 1 or 2 guys on point, barely surviving, hovering between 6-12k health lets say. and some thief roamer, who i cant see coming, will come in and instagib me for 13k burst on 2k toughness, instantly.
the problem is – WHERE IS THE SKILL? how am i to react to the most reliable single target burst in the game when i cant see it coming? it’s like getting smitten by lightning from the sky. basically, i just have to “deal” and take it. there’s no other explanation.
This bit here shows your mentality. You think that you should be able to be in a fight, 2 on 1 even, be “hovering” around 6-10K health and be able to survive a burst profession piling on you while distracted.
The fact is, if you have the awareness to see a Thief coming and the cool-downs you can prepare yourself for the burst, even if you are already fighting but if you don’t even notice them then there is no way you can nor should you survive.
he doesnt need 13-16k burst to kill me, thats the point. maybe 6-10k. BS thieves generally just overkill the target.
That’s silly…you’re talking about a 1 v 3. I am by no way condoning thief burst, but your reason for it (being that you are being dropped in a 1 v 3 by a thief you can’t see) is just as silly as their damage.
i am not talking about a 1v3. at all. not even close. im talking about receiving ridiculous amounts of burst damage without having any control over it. it cannot be seen coming, it cannot be dodged.
You asked “how am I to react”. I said in that situation you shouldn’t be able to. Now you are saying it’s fine to get insta killed in this situation, just not by so much?
that is absolutely ridiculous. forget the example. lets say i was 1v1’ing someone, and i was at 13k health. im as good as dead.
- no risk
- huge burst
- cant be dodged
- can be repeated quickly
- reliable
i would really like to invite experienced thief players like Xeph to come out and just support greater build diversity for the thief, and a trait coefficient nerf for the BS build. arguing against this is wasting time, and not caring about your game.
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i could be handling 1 or 2 guys on point, barely surviving, hovering between 6-12k health lets say. and some thief roamer, who i cant see coming, will come in and instagib me for 13k burst on 2k toughness, instantly.
the problem is – WHERE IS THE SKILL? how am i to react to the most reliable single target burst in the game when i cant see it coming? it’s like getting smitten by lightning from the sky. basically, i just have to “deal” and take it. there’s no other explanation.
This bit here shows your mentality. You think that you should be able to be in a fight, 2 on 1 even, be “hovering” around 6-10K health and be able to survive a burst profession piling on you while distracted.
The fact is, if you have the awareness to see a Thief coming and the cool-downs you can prepare yourself for the burst, even if you are already fighting but if you don’t even notice them then there is no way you can nor should you survive.
he doesnt need 13-16k burst to kill me, thats the point. maybe 6-10k. BS thieves generally just overkill the target. in fact, id love to see an overkill damage counter.
Could you please state the preliminary findings?
Which AoE’s are pinging your radar?
well necros
d/d eles
mind wrack
in that order. id be surprised if findings are different.
in sPvP: AOE is just fine in PvP,
obviously, u lack experience in spvp. likely, you havent played an organized tpvp match. trap rangers, d/d eles, well necros wipe the floor with entire groups of people on point. aoe is MOST broken in spvp.
secondly, as mentioned ad nauseum, aoe was always a problem in PVE. aoe tagging. enough said.
i actually dont see aoe as a problem in wvw. it acts as an excellent zerg deterrent.
build is fine.
pls don’t homogenize this game.
i’m sorry nerva, but stealth counters pets. i’m pretty sure you play bunker ranger, so you will have a hard time putting that spec down on your own. but he will never kill you & never take your point, so outside of honor duelling i don’t see the issue.
i play other profs and specs as well. i havent lost to an attrition thief. BUT my point is: godmode. nobody should have near infinite stealth. it’s a broken mechanic.
0.3 second is all thats needed for the human brain to register and send information to limbs. if this is what we have to react to a large amount of burst, then it’s fair. those not paying attention get punished, and highly skilled players with excellent awareness can dodge the initial nuke. good ideas. but mug, or other trait damage coefficients would need a nerf as well.
You realise AOE nerf probably means staff Ele?..
probably not. likely will cover some or all of d/d ele’s 11 aoe abilities. and dont worry, thieves got it comin as well.
it’s not our job to think about how to balance the game. if anything, we raise the concern, devs deal with it. i think players have been more than generous with suggestions though. suggestions to fixing the thief are all over the forums.
im sure everyone recognizes that thieves are subpar in other areas and need buffing. at the same time, the BS burst combo has been ignored by devs for way too long. i mean, thieves are one-shotting people 6 months later!!!
aoe nerf will hopefully deal with mind wrack. once that is dealt with, mesmers should be ok.
not sure what level you play at, but bunker ranger is one of the weakest bunkers and can easily be killed by 2 coordinated people. u can still buy time, but two good players can win eventually. ranger is the least cheesy, and most balanced bunker in the game right now, with no stability and hard-countered by one or two immobilizes. anyway, this thread isnt about the ranger. i was just giving one example.
please dont start arguing that thieves are a good counter to bunkers, because theyre not. the high burst is good against any target and limits the number of viable specs.