Guild Wars 2

It will be a system to require time to reach Legendary division. For the majority of people it will be impossible because seasons has a duration and you need to reach the legendary division in X time.

How much time you need it depends about your wins and loss and about your performance when you lose.

ofc it will require time and games, and it’s good, because you don’t really think to get a legendary item with low effort, right?

The real problem will be that premades against soloers are an disadvantage for soloer, so soloer will really need more games to climb divisions.

I only hope they can fix this soloer vs premade issue, i think other stuff is fine.

Evan Lesh.3295:

There are some changes we are exploring that would further reduce the number of uneven roster sizes in matches, but nothing concrete on that yet.

I really hope you can find a solution before HoT&PvP Leagues

Many times it’s really frustrating.

At least to avoid completely to face a full premade if you’re solo or duo.

It’s hard to say without seeing skills and traits.

It could be really good or really bad.

Conncept.7638:

Thief, staff, knew it.

It also comes with a comment: “This promises to be a distracting week..”

Not sure, but I’m wondering if that’s a clue on the functionality of the spec. Maybe they’ll get some of the mesmers functionality that creates distractions on the battlefield, shadow clones or something similar, would definitely fit the ninja vibe.

I was thinking the same, really sure it won’t be a stealth spec. but more for “distraction” tools.

Conncept.7638:

Thief, staff, knew it.

It also comes with a comment: “This promises to be a distracting week..”

Not sure, but I’m wondering if that’s a clue on the functionality of the spec. Maybe they’ll get some of the mesmers functionality that creates distractions on the battlefield, shadow clones or something similar, would definitely fit the ninja vibe.

I was thinking the same, really sure it won’t be a stealth spec. but more for “distraction” tools.

I don’t think it will be a stealth specialization.

Don’t think at all.

Maybe evasione and “distraction”

I’ ve a mix between fear, hopes and curiosity.

Very Good poll, gj.

TCG lost with 3 eles.

They should replace Helseth with another Ele

I was thinking if we are in a worst situation than the old double cheesy hambow meta, dunno, at least we don’t have spirit ranger pets.

But i see always the same problem , cheesy build too good in everything (speaking about eles ofc).

The assumption “It’s not viable in high tournament level so it’s fine” is simply stupid.

We saw this with the turret engi, this build created for months a super toxic environment in Ranked queue, the last spvp test seasons was dominated by Engi turrets, who carried in a super brainless way the entire team.

We analyzed condi mesmer pros and cons in another topic but for sure it’s not a balanced build and some changes is required.

There is already a topic dedicated:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Thought-on-condi-mesmers/first#post5403870

Cynz.9437:

Thief in nutshell:
- stealth bot for team
- rez bot for team
- decap bot
- stomp/rezzes interrupts

90% of the fights are advices to avoid, you are basically independent utility pet for other players on your team. If you like that playstyle, sure thief is viable.

It’s sad but pretty much this.

Basically In meta for shortbow 5

And if u’re a bad thief….better to play another profession directly, to not create too much damage to Your team.

There is a difference between “full premade” and “premade”.

If you’re solo against a full preamde you victory chances are really low, it can happen to win but it really depends about tier. I mean in high tier with high mmr is almost impossible, you have a little better chance in mid tier but it really depends on your team compositions.

In general you have very low chance against a full premade.

Other premade are differents, if we talk about duo or trio. It depends if you have a similar roster size composition in your team of a similar builds/skill level. In general chances to win are really higher and i had many good matches with similar roster size involved.

So i think if at least the Matchmaking avoided us to face a full premade when we’re solo, it should be a good improvement.

How effective you’re in a teamfight depends on how many aoe condis cleanse there are involved or how many condis cleanse have a specific build.

Ofc if you face combination like shout war/bunker guardian + ele you’re almost useless but if you face engi + thief or in general not great condis cleanse you have greate chance to be effective.

It depends on enemy team composition most of all, for this reason in random queue, where team is not optimized, you can do well.

And this is the reason why you don’t see this spec in high tournament levels.

In general is not well balanced, considering other game mode, WWW especially.

Yeah, in general has a low skill cap and too much effective for how easy is to play it.

The chronomancer version is also super effective with condis.

PU is the main source of issues but in general the ratio survivability/condis pressure is not well balanced.

In www is the supreme cancer.

Half of the map in stealth, combination of block /invulnerability, stealth/blind with counter conditions.

I play it sometimes and the real focus is to win 1vs2 or 1vs3.

1vs1 is too easy, just necro can create some troubles or Ele diamond skin (just leave).

In spvp is good like far attacker (or in general node attacker) in random queue, where not always good eles (or necro) can defend every nodes. In every case, it makes a huge condi pressure on thief, mesmer power, engi, warrior marauder if there is not enough condi cleanse around.

Evan Lesh.3295:

Drennon.7190:

Evan Lesh.3295:

More statistics is definitely something we’re interested in.

Why do you only cherry pick post take make the new system look good? It’s funny that you never show up in threads that logically describe how bad the change to solo queue is.

Fair question. It’s easy for me as a programmer to combat precise statements with some data to try and keep things from snowballing, but I’m not really the guy to comment about the game design choices behind solo and team queue. I just pop in where I can be useful. I’d love to try and get some global statistics for everyone though.

Evan, I remember your old topic about adding more stats ingame.

Ofc I understand you’ve limited resources and you’re modifying a lot spvp, but any plan to continue with a better stats “recap” (maybe at the end of the match to understand better player contribution to the game)?

For example i really appreciated the combat log rework, i remember the old one and the actual is really really better.

and maybe extending the spectator infastructure, for example in unranked queue.

It depends on situation, if at the same there is pressure on far you can try to disengage and going far to help.

In general try always to avoid a full wipe. Survive as long as you can. Disengage if you’re getting to much pressure. And don’t fight in 200 on node. It’ useless.

Evan Lesh.3295:

I did a quick looky, and your record today is 7-4 with your worst loss being 150 points and your best loss being 360. It doesn’t seem to match up to the experience you describe. Before that you were on a massive win streak so perhaps your MMR is settling back down.

If I get time I can try and see how many matches were against premades.

At this point, pretty curious about how many premade he faced

BTW Evan, I’m pretty sure you read the huge quantity of topic demanding for a solo – premade queue split (at least to not face full premade), i hope you’re evaluating this option.

Honestly, the combination premade + eles rain is killing my desire to play

Thuggernaut.1250:

the solution involves increasing build diversity so that other professions can take better advantage of cele stats, rather than nerfing ele.

Lol, no thx.

It’s only because there is a broken ratio damage/sustain.

Guardian bunker is a supe rock but doesn’t bring damage to the fight

Ele d/d is totally another story.

Too much damage/too much sustain/too much mobility.

Starts to nerf ele d/d first of all.

You shouldn’t deal with condi damage build in 1vs1.

You have low chance to win and basically no chance to keep the node.

So leave and go to help your team mates in another node.

Archaon.9524:

Ele wars 2 also meaning that literally everyone runs around with double cheese ele

cough wts cough….

Yeah yeah abj rotated better i know….considering how easy it is while you have 2 ppl being able to 1v2 for ages…

There is a shy attempt from warriors to force some shoutwar version (it’s not so bad) but honestly Ele is better to 360°. It’s more a desperate move forced by eles.

I watched the entire evening ROm dueling ele and was like Ele could go afk for half of the match, come back, continue and winning the duel.

Rotfl.

Ofc it’s not only about duel, ele contribution to teamfight is really high in many ways, too strong right now.

Honestly it starts to be embarrassing.

It’s a fact we have Ele Wars 2 now.

So probably something is wrong with this class.

Too good to do everything.

Spartacus.3192:

ronpierce.2760:

If I had my hand it it, I’d do something like:

- Nerf burn damage by 25%, increase durations by 25% (Net about 7.5% damage, lower ticks to bring in line with other conditions, which actually also need to be brought UP, especially in case of Poison and Bleeding. Sad day when bleeding is less stackable than Burning and deals a quarter of the damage…)

Sooo basically go almost back to what burning was before the latest patch… a useless addon damage that guards did while speccing power. gee thanks

Yes, in zerker build burning should do super low damage. This makes sense.

Now it’s broken, you’re defending it cuz you play a broken burning guardian.

Speaking about burning class:

http://www.zam.com/story.html?story=36349

I’ ve the feeling warrior torch will join the burning brainless train

We can add Bloody roar (elite war spec) to the list

http://i.imgur.com/O4ZxYAl.png

I agree parry and risposte probably it would be really nice for thief design

Probably good for melee staff

Like for example a ranger counter attack but with a leap/gap closer after the (melee) block

And i think Anet should add f3 for thief like f5 fo mesmer, instead of changing steal

With DA and Trickery lines basically locked, i think only SA and Acrobatics are lines we can switch and get a viable build

So, what it would be need to be viable?

I think 2 things really important:

1) Good condi removal
2) Alternative Stealth defense

Evasions are (in theory, I agree need some improvement) in the Acrobatic line so i think the specialization like needs something different but aligned with the Rogue design.

1) Elite spec not announced. Probably it will be the last (before of after the Druid) This means less time to improve/test it, less BWE.

2) Anti stealth skills everywhere.

Revenant – Gaze Of Darkness, Unyelding Anguish (anti sr- anti bp)
Guardian – Light’s Judgement
Ranger – Sick’em, taunt
Engi – Lock on, Analyze

Stealth needs some counter but is the main defensive thief source. If Anet doesn’t compensate with something else, thief will slowing die.

3) Not other build viable except for d/p. D/p itself is fine but has lost a lot of 1vs1 potentiality relegating thief in a +1 or decap role (and it’s not always possible, it depends a lot of your team strength, how solid it is)

Just to clarify this, I love to play Thief and i don’t want to play an OP class but a versatile class. Atm is not possible, too limited role, there is a lack of defense and builds.

I remember a discussion about this.

I think Low rank requisite are really low, maybe like 10 or 20 i dunno, just to prevent completely new players to play some game rank mode (maybe ranked).

PS Doing 0-20 is really fast.

Knighthonor.4061:

I am concerned about how this new league feature will effect the community as well as underpowered classes.

this reminds me a lot of Arenas from WoW. The small scale PvP is never well balanced in any game with unique classes. So some classes were not welcomed in Arena using certain builds.

discrimination is going to happen big time now that losing is a punishment. You thought the community was bad before in SPvP, just wait until this feature is added. You heard it here first people. Cant say I didnt warn.

The toxicity level will grow easily with PvP leagues, it’s inevitable, because more competition = more toxicity.

ATM people don’t really care if they lose or not in ranked queue, basically they lose nothing but with pvp leagues things will be different.

Perfect balance is not possible ofc, i think, except for ele and burning, we have now a decent meta, the main issue is unbalanced match from beginning cause a bad matchmaking, especially soloers vs premade. Besides the fact you waited for 6+ mins. in HOTM while doing nothing.

These issues need to be fixed before the release.

Honestly reveal on auto reflect is a bad design, it’s not only about Master of Manipulation but Evasive Mirros works similar if you’re in stealth and someone is hitting u with a projectile.

In genera i like channel projectile skills can hit u in stealth a but a reflection + reveal is too much imho.

Honestly yes, there will be Anti stealth skill everywhere

Revenant – Gaze Of Darkness, Unyelding Anguish (anti sr- anti bp)
Guardian – Light’s Judgement
Ranger – Sick’em, taunt
Engi – Lock on, Analyze

Stealth needs some counter but at the same time Thief needs more love because Stealth is one of the main source to survive, without Stealth a thief is almost dead.

I agree with the general feeling, ok stealth counters but Anet needs to improve defensive skills.

Cynz.9437:

First of all i am glad something like this is finally getting implemented. I hope that eventually it will also work better than what we have atm.

Now to the concerns:

1. TL/DR: please separate soloq and teamq.
From what i saw and understood soloq and teamq will not be separated allowing set teams to farm ranks easily and leaving soloq players (which are still majority in this game no matter how much teamq is forced on them) with low chances for higher tiers, lesser rewards and close to no motivation. I do not think that “You gonna stuck in silver for the rest of your life unless you form a team” is good motivation for soloq players nor it will change any circumstances that prevent them from having a team.

2. Also, rather bound to first point. Ranks/leagues w/e they are called can be sold. Let’s assume there is a team that is really really good. What would prevent them from selling 5th slot on their team (temporary) to carry that person to desired league? (If soloq and team would be separated, at least it wouldn’t be issue in soloq). (see point 4)

3. You can’t lose tiers even if you lose a lot. I think it is wrong. It just promotes farming just like the current system. I think it is ok not to lose divisions but one should lose tiers if they lose certain amounts of games while sitting at 0 pips in that division. Otherwise losing is hardly punishing besides making farming rewards bit longer.

4. Again teamq and carry: let’s assume amber player teams up with with players from different divisions. How would be enemy team set up? How would match-making decide which players should be facing such premade? Assuming matchmaking would work as it works now, such set up would allow higher division players to easily farm pips by allowing 1 low division player on team.
I think if let’s say team consist of players from bottom to top divisions, the matchmaking should put enemy team preferably from higher divisions thus making low division player a big liability and dicouraging intentional farming

5. Punishment system should really be more severe. If player was found consistently afking/trolling etc. they should lose divisions, not just tiers.

1) I agree

2) it would be difficult because a bad player can create issues to a good 4 men team so the win is not guaranteed.

3) You will lose tiers from division 4: "Divisions four and five—the advanced divisions—are where competition really heats up, and from that point forward you can lose both pips from losing matches and tiers after you’ve lost all the pips in a tier. "

4) Your position in the division will have a marginal impact on matchmaking, maybe nothing. Like Your old leaderboard position didn’t count on the actual matchmaking.

5)I’d like to see it in action before to judge it.

No change to Continuum Shift CD + double elite?

I noticed this too.

Mournilg.4870:

Stability not working is a bug, it should be fixed soon.
The use of the trait that strip 2 charges of stability is also in cause because of the pulses.
Don’t worry it will not stay as it is ^^

So stability is the only possible counter? No dodge/block nothing?

I was thinking the same

Historically in GW2 spvp, profession (or better build) got too easily the node possession or decap (old bunker engi decapper and super cancer engi turrets) created a lot of issues, hundreds of complains on the forum, bad meta for months and the inevitable nerf from Anet.

So i think is better to handle possible issues in this phase, considering it’s in beta.

style.6173:

Let’s be clear here. Burning is fine. What is not fine is the ability of eles, guards, and trap rangers to stack burns.

Also, for people who mention condi clear really haven’t played enough. Even as a bunker guard traited for condi removal, it is still easy to overwhelm them with burn stacks. That’s a problem.

Ironically, the only class that can clear the stacks effectively, is a D/D ele which is also part of a the burn stacking problem. Of course D/D ele is a whole different topic.

You forgot condi engi.

And the burning formula is not balanced, there would be less base damage and a little more better scale with condi damage.

@thiefz issue with condi damage meta basically was the shoutwar and ele D/D, not condi itself. Now it remains ele D/D that is amazing to remove condis. And there is ele rain in pvp

So add more condis to guardian if the issue is condi guardian has only burning.

ATM burning is broken, it’s impossible to defend it. It’s designed to be a condition, damage over time, not instant burst. And the base damage is too high, what’s the sense in a Marauder build with 0 condi damage a guardian can hit for more than 800+/s ? Or a Celestial elementalist can go easiliy over 1k condi damage with only few might stacks.

PVE guys are happy because they can use a sinister build with guardian and engi, and in some case it’s better than zerker build, talking about damage (look the DnT review). And the issue is right there, a condi build who makes the same (or more) burst damage than a zerker build.

Not sense at all honestly.

If a mod merged every similar request in a unique topic, it would be like skyhammer topic lol.

I don’t think in unranked is easy to find people with the same mmr of a wts winner.

Play with a second account

Patchi.9061:

As I stated in my previous post. You should be rewarded less for facing people with lower leagues and punished more if you actually lose against someone who is in a lower league. This way those farmers will be punished for spamming games as you cannot really consistently win games unless you are skilled. Vice versa as well.

I think the odds / final score matrix will determine how many pips you gain/lose and odds will calculated with the actual parameters in the matchmaking formula more or less.

So divisions will be basically a progression status similar to “you have X points in the old leaderboard”. If you are in the higher divisions it’s like you have more points in the old leaderboard.

In the old machmaking formula your position in the leaderboard didn’t count for odds calculation so i think it will be the same with divisions.

Basically Divisions will be a different old leaderboard visualization.

This is a speculation of course based on what we read on blogs but in this design i don’t find a strong correlation between your skill level (ranking) and the division level.

For Teamleaderboard is different because there will be an ELO system with decay and we’ll have an unique MMR for the entire Team Guild. This simply means the best Guilds will cover the higher spots.

I don’t think it will be the same with PVP leagues.

In a perfect system, divisions should reflect skill level, from amber to Legendary, player should be spread by their skill. But i think the reality will be different. Let’s try a little analisys with what we know:

Pips, tiers and divisions.

We will start from Amber. Everyone. So there is no system to put you directly in a superior league, like make 10 test games and something like that. Probably is not bad because there are a lot of complaints for test games in other games, so ok, everyone starts from amber division. This doesn’t mean the matchup will be equal from everyone, there is always mmr, roster size and other parameters, so the system will always try to match people of the same skill level together (in theory).

You need X pips to climb the tiers, so you need X tiers to go to another division. This means you will need X pips in general (big number) to reach the legendary Division. Anet spoke about reset divisions every Season, it means you will start from 0 every Season.

The number of games you need to reach the legendary division is not fixed. It will depends (supposedly) about odds and final score like the old matrix. So you can gain more pips or you can lose more pips (only in higher division).

The old lederboard teached us something. If you want to reach higher spots, or you play an insane number of games every day, or you need to have a good team to farm most games as possible, but at the same time you need always to play a lot of games.
Season has a duration. We don’t know how long it will be but it means you need to gain X pips in Y amount of Time to reach the higher division. With the new Season, your effort will disappear and you need to start from 0.

What’s the issue here?

It’s the same of the old leaderboard. If you’re a really good solo player but you have a limited amount of time every day (and i’m not saying 30 min. but for example 2-3 hours that is not bad at all) probably it would be impossibile to reach higher spots (=higher divisions).

Probably the higher division will be only for people who can play something like 20+games everydays (for the entire league duration) or people who has good team but always need to play at least 10 games (and it’s about 3+ hours every day).

Without knowing exactly everything is not really possibile to do a super accurate analysis, but from what i read and considering the old Seasons test, I think the scenario will be this.

So, Legendary farmer or legendary player?

The true question is how many pips you need to reach the legendary division. Because if they talk about a reset every season, you need to farm X pips everytime to climb every divisions and try to enter in the legendary divisions.

What legendary division will mean? You grinded 40 games/daily to try to enter there?

or You simply have a good full premade and you can reach the same division in half of time?

Soloer with no team and no more than 2-3 hours daily can get only a mid tier level, doesn’t matter if they are super good?

So, i tried to focus more on defensive line in this bwe and i can say treb is really strong. It’s a good mechanics cuz it requires skill to aim, you can dodge and destroy it but probably it’s a bit too easy to repair.

I don’t remember exactly if in the previous beta you always needed only 1 supply to repair the treb but probably is a bit too easy with only one. Most of all if you use a class with teleport and high mobility like thief or mesmer.

Probably 2 supplies it would be better.

Thoughts?

There are a lot of questions and doubts, maybe it’s better to wait tomorrow blog post (probably the Curse video covered everything) but i think other devs answers would be great.