Guild Wars 2

Rin.1046:

Emtiarbi.3281:

I remember that in an interview Anet said that they will look into the old traits and skills to make them good enough, lets hope for the best.

I hope so too. It will be a shame if there is no reason to build for the core mesmer again. That Continuum Split is pretty powerful on its own, I hope they can make the core mesmer just as attractive. To do this I am assuming the elite spec will lose some core mesmer functionality. It would be good to find out if that is the case and if it is, what will be lost. If it is only the loss of one trait line of your choice I am not so sure it will be enough.

But hey, it’s eqarly days. I’m willing to try it and see.

its not objectively stronger, mostly you lose access to complementary lines, you will be giving up synergy somewhere to use chronomancer

tramwajarz.2369:

Rin.1046:

I really like the sounds of this specialization, but it does raise one question in my mind. With the benefits of the elite spec being so strong, will anyone ever create a build without it? Of course when other elite specs come along that might change, but it seems too strong to only use core specs. But maybe that’s the plan?

Of course it’s a plan. Base professions are being toned down to make specs look OP so people will be more happy to buy an expansion. And after a year we will see massive nerfs and the outcry will be delicious. I dunno how anyone can expect anything better from any company on the market.

nah, the old profs will still be probably the same power level wise, they will just be a lot more boring

the shield is eh, but the alacrity mechanic and continuum shift is pretty hot. It does seem like overall, many of the old jobs will become obsolete.

Delgan.8619:

Why rant over something you don’t even know as yet how it will play out.

My guess they won’t make anyone that already has traits open make a repeat payment, so likely many players will end up with 400 hero points and all skills (only spending hero points on what they don’t already have).

Which means you’re likely going to end up with a huge pool of hero points that you can trade in for sellable items.

WIN-WIN (besides from tempory market crash).

hero points will not be used for anything except skill progression.
the monetary things you can get with skill points will instead use a different currency, that you will get similarly to how you get skill points now.

this is according to what anet said.

based on what they have said, they cant use that type of structure.

CptTrips.6512:

Devata.6589:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Devata.6589:

Yeah but when you have done it a second time your overall chance it would have dropped is 0,0019999% and on your 3th run you overall chance is 0,000299970001% and so on. But indeed, every run by itself stays the same.

You’re contradicting yourself. The odds for the occurrence of a random event do not improve across multiple tries.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Gambler%27s_fallacy

This is just simple math and the problem here is the explanation. Every time you have the same chance, that is true. But the chance you have something in 5 tries (with all the same chances) is bigger.

Your wiki page does say the following “The gambler’s fallacy is the false belief that a random process becomes less random, and more predictable, as it is repeated”.

That is true when looking at it from a single try. My next try is as big as my following, and the number of tries does not influence that.

However, if you have done it a lot of times, chances are bigger that one of those tries had a positive outcome.

That in fact does mean a higher number makes something less random. The whole since is based around this. If you would do a scientific paper where you use peoples feedback as part of your ‘investigation’ you will need enough people for your information to be reliable. Meaning ‘less random’ and there is software that helps you determine if your group is reliable enough. If you would only interview 2 people it would never be considered reliable. This is related to this the same chance math.

Just for the record, the wiki page does not even deny what I am saying here. It says that people believe that if they gamble on number 1 out of 10 and lose, the next try they should gamble on 1 again because now the chance is bigger that 1 will ‘drop’. That is indeed false. It does not matter on what of the 10 number they gamle, there is no difference. They can gamble on whatever they want and the chance it will be the correct number still is the same. However, having gambled 10 times increased there change of having had it right at least once (no matter what number it was) over having only gambled once. That last part is what I talked about.

So far for the lesson on math, guess it’s sort of relevant for the subject, now back tot he topic.

Your lesson is a fail. maybe you should learn a bit more about RNG

they are kind of right, they just still believe in the fallacy.

your chances are higher BEFORE you attempt with multiple attempts

not after
after you tried 20 times you are not more likely to have suceeded, the past is not probability, it is fact.
there is no probability of events in the past. probability is only in reference to future events.

basically you have a higher chance of success if you intend to try multiple times, but every time you fail, those attempts are no longer part of the possible events.

the guy who failed 1000 times has no probability associated with him the guy who succeeded has no probability associated with him.

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

Won’t we achieve Hero Points in a variety of ways in HoT? Seems like it could be a possibility, anyway. Or, even if they are all Hero Challenges, they should be something new for a few times through, at least. =)

Maybe we can pick up some points there, instead of the few needed (~60) in Pact Tyria. Of course, I supposed that would only apply to those that did not feel the need to have every skill and trait unlocked right away.

I know I have several still locked because they are just of no interest to me on that character. Of course, time will tell and we will know much more when everything is finalized.

they said specifically that they will be limited, this means they dont want to add any repeatable means of obtaining it.

best solution i think is a soulbound core campaign skill point teleporter consumable, that they give for like every 3 WvW ranks or something. that sells for a few silver (after people have gotten all skill points)

Eurhetemec.9052:

I am concerned, yes.

The big concern I have is that they will force me to go back through the game do dozens or hundreds of skill challenges. All of which are utterly trivial but take say, 2-4 minutes to get to assuming you have a nearby WP, and 1-3 minutes to do (as you may have to wait), so say 5 minutes each, and that means each 12 is 1hr, and I might need, say 180 across my characters to get back to where I am now, so that’s FIFTEEN HOURS of my bloody life, gaining NOTHING else (because no loot etc. from these), just to catch up to where I’ve been for years!

You better believe I’m concerned!

you never have to wait for a skill point, if someone else is doing it, you can join in.
having to play your charachter for 3-5 hours before reaching maximum power level really isnt that crazy an idea.

Eponet.4829:

phys.7689:

Eponet.4829:

I’m concerned because they haven’t seemed to give any indication that there will be ways to acquire hero points outside of map completion, thus forcing a very specific style of play on people if they want to progress.

Say what you want of this system, but at least the skill points and gold can be acquired from dungeons, world bosses, fractals, WvW, and SPvP reward tracks. Ascended gear can be crafted from playing just about every mechanically inclined aspect of the game too.

There needs to be an option to gain hero points from these other sources of advancement. Unlike with cosmetics, this actually impacts your mechanical abilities. Something like rare dungeon/fractal drops that grant a hero point, Reward track progression for capturing structures in WvW, and turning some of the tomes of knowledge in PVP reward tracks into hero point tomes.

Gating mechanical abilities behind specific checklist content goes against their statement that you should be able to just play the way that you find fun and progress through that. Even the current traits and ascended gear that are so reviled didn’t betray that.

im gonna be 100% honest here
I would much rather have a small checklist than something that takes 10-30 times longer to achieve the same result.

I really dont care if there are many grindy ways to do something as long as there is 1 less grindy way.
and make no mistake, getting skill points is way less grindy than the current system.
you really want to compare getting 490 skill points and 43 gold to getting the current equivalent of 141 skill points?
you want to compare ascended which takes 25-34 days or 50-100 hours of grinding gold/mats to something which would take 1 day, maybe 2-3 hours?

I will take this system in a heartbeat over the current one, and its actually less skill points than you currently need just to unlock skills.

yup, before you needed 67 to unlock all proffesion skills after leveling to 80, and now you need 65 to unlock all proffession skills and traits after leveling.

so yeah, still way better than previous, and still better than ascended, heck its even less work than the first system was.

I guess it’s a difference of opinion. I would rather play what I enjoy, and then incidentally eventually achieve the rewards for doing that than waste time doing things that I don’t. Having completed map completion once, and hated every minute of it (and it was more like a month of play). I despise the idea that they’re going to force me to go through a third of it to unlock traits, and probably close to all of it for the elite specialisation, with every single alt.

That’s the problem. It’s a better system for the sorts of people that do enjoy that sort of content, and a worse system for those who don’t. People who aren’t largely effected by it, because it’s what they were doing anyway don’t see why others feel the way that they do.

Besides, I’m not saying that they should retain the current system, but that they should implement ways of eventually achieving it naturally in the course of playing other aspects of the game than just map completion.

you dont need to do 1/3 of map completion, you need to do 65 skill points. not hearts, not pois, not vistas, it takes substantially less times.

and yeah, of course its going to vary from person to person, but getting skill points is not really excessive or painful.

keep in mind even if they add other methods, those other methods may still not be applicable for you.
like ascended, sure you can get them without crafting, but if you aint doing fractals, its not a realistic possibility.

Eponet.4829:

I’m concerned because they haven’t seemed to give any indication that there will be ways to acquire hero points outside of map completion, thus forcing a very specific style of play on people if they want to progress.

Say what you want of this system, but at least the skill points and gold can be acquired from dungeons, world bosses, fractals, WvW, and SPvP reward tracks. Ascended gear can be crafted from playing just about every mechanically inclined aspect of the game too.

There needs to be an option to gain hero points from these other sources of advancement. Unlike with cosmetics, this actually impacts your mechanical abilities. Something like rare dungeon/fractal drops that grant a hero point, Reward track progression for capturing structures in WvW, and turning some of the tomes of knowledge in PVP reward tracks into hero point tomes.

Gating mechanical abilities behind specific checklist content goes against their statement that you should be able to just play the way that you find fun and progress through that. Even the current traits and ascended gear that are so reviled didn’t betray that.

im gonna be 100% honest here
I would much rather have a small checklist than something that takes 10-30 times longer to achieve the same result.

I really dont care if there are many grindy ways to do something as long as there is 1 less grindy way.
and make no mistake, getting skill points is way less grindy than the current system.
you really want to compare getting 490 skill points and 43 gold to getting the current equivalent of 141 skill points?
you want to compare ascended which takes 25-34 days or 50-100 hours of grinding gold/mats to something which would take 1 day, maybe 2-3 hours?

I will take this system in a heartbeat over the current one, and its actually less skill points than you currently need just to unlock skills.

yup, before you needed 67 to unlock all proffesion skills after leveling to 80, and now you need 65 to unlock all proffession skills and traits after leveling.

so yeah, still way better than previous, and still better than ascended, heck its even less work than the first system was.

commnagrom.8637:

So as i understand it now, leveling a character to 80 will net you 400 Hero Points and to unlock all the Core Specializations you will need 465. Ok 65 skill challenges is not that bad, but kitten why should i have to go back on ALL my alts and make sure they all have 65 skill challenges complete?

I have one of EACH class, not all of them 80, but i have hope of getting them all to 80, and if i want to be able to experiment with builds that means each of them will eventually need to get 65 hero challenges. Mind you all but 3 of my characters were created before the new trait unlocking system, as such i never had to unlock all the traits on them, but now if anet decides to undo unlocking all the traits on ALL my characters only my Main (who has map completion) and 2 of my alts have completed even CLOSE to enough skill challenges to get every core unlock.

I even have one fresh 80 with literally 3 skill challenges, that means if i want to get everything i will need to do 62 more on them, not to mention the OTHER 4 characters.

But Anet i have a compromise for you, instead of taking away everyone’s skills and traits and giving them nothing in return, hows about you convert all of the leveling Skill points AND 65 other character bound skill points into hero points for each character.

This means that characters who DO have all their traits, skills, and all that unlocked (who may have WASTED GOLD AND SKILL POINTS TO DO IT!) will still get their unlocks without feeling like they have been cheated by this the trait system TWICE!

tl;dr – resetting everyone’s traits and not giving us credit for it sucks, instead ANET should give people up to 65 extra hero points for skills/traits they already spend tones of SP and Gold on otherwise its totally unfair for alt-holics!

this would favor people who saved skill points, not people who spent them on skills/traits.

Jana.6831:

Trait system was introduced half a year before the NPE hit. We just celebrated its first birthday – it wasn’t sold to us as NPE back then but as “A lot of you missed the skill unlocking from GW1- take this instead”.

april to september, they were both systems in place in china, we just got the NPE later. Its pretty clear the systems were designed together. When you finish getting your skills, at 30, then traits come in. It was part of system that restructured your progress to be more pronounced on higher levels.
remember leveling is slower in china, and they wanted stronger carrots in place for leveling. Chinese people would come here complaining about it during beta , and anet was like a lot of things are just for china guys! dont worry about it!

Vox Hollow.2736:

Phys:

Just to be clear:
I don’t really have a horse in this race, I’m basing my satisfaction of the system on multiple factors.

It’s just that reading people examine choices on the technical numbers level feels a bit like watching somebody struggle to dig a well two feet away from a river. It’s mean to question the effort….but hard not to say something.

yes, looking at the pure possibilities, is a bit pointless, or rather its pointless if you look at it in certain ways.

but it does give you an idea of the difference in variability. If when you looked at the old system, you felt like you didnt have that many different builds you could make that were really different playstyle wise, likelyhood is you will feel that even more with the new system.

And I ve looked at what they have done, and i can objectively say the qualitative variation will definately be a lot lower than before.

the devs plan to make up for this?
basic increase in power
and increase in how much different things each build does.

but the devs knew this going in, the point was to make it less likely to have people roll a bad build, thus seeing more impactof traits on their build, and make it less daunting for newbs.

also, they have less traits to maintain, and design for new specs

Nate.3927:

I don’t really see why people are suggesting complicated solutions like auto complete skills challenges. If there’s a hard cap on hero points, the simplest solution is to simply give existing 80s the full 465 hero points, then any new skill/hero challenges they do add to it until they hit the cap, then it adds no more.

Suppose the overall cap is 550 (random number I’m pulling from nowhere), an existing level 80 that has done no skill challenges whatsoever gets the full 465. Then gets whatever they’re supposed to get whenever they do a hero/skill challenge(I assume 1 per) until they hit 550 total, then any more skill/hero challenges they do, grant them no hero points, it simply grants them the completed icon for map completion.

No need for stuff like negative hero points and WvW giving more etc.

because they didnt put a hard cap on it, they just made it limited due to only having two sources. its not like 620 cap on hero points, its more like there are only 620 sources for skill points.

also you guys assume the people have unlocked every trait and skill on their charachters, many have not, they only unlocked what they wanted, and how would the game track that, when the systems dont match.

Rising Dusk.2408:

Mesmers actually got a lot of very strong enhancements with the specialization changeover. They gained a really awesome +10% damage vs. Vulnerability suffering foes minor trait in Domination, and that coupled with the natural boost to Mind Wrack damage, the Mental Torment bonus of up to 50% damage to Mind Wrack damage, and the possibility of packing Master of Fragmentation, and I think Mesmers will be shattering a lot more frequently post-patch.

I expect the rotation to look something like this:

1. Start in OH Sword, summon Swordsman
2. Swap to OH Pistol, summon Duelist
3. Use Signet of the Ether
4. Summon Duelist
5. Use standard attacking DPS rotation until Signet of the Ether is off cooldown, ending in OH Sword
6. Mind Wrack in melee for huge burst since you’re now the fourth illusion by default
7. Repeat from 1

The biggest thoughts on what Mesmers have post-patch are as follows:

• Loss of Empowering Mantras is a huge DPS hit to Mesmers, hurting their DPS more than they gain from other new traits. Harmonious Mantras is insufficient at making up the difference, and Mantras will be mostly removed from PvE play as a build option (especially considering the new strengths of the Inspiration line).
  • A good fix here would be to make Harmonious Mantras work as follows:
  • Harmonious Mantras: Mantras can be activated three times before needing to be channeled again. Gain a 3% damage bonus for each Mantra equipped to your skill bar.
  • This will make Mantras valuable to bring, but they won’t be mandatory in all builds. This also allows you to actually use mantras and retain the damage boost, which is important so players don’t just sit on them charged.
  • This also gives the Dueling line a proper damage-boosting GM trait, which is great.
• Mesmers are in the unenviable position of really wanting four trait lines in PvE. In PvE Domination and Dueling will be mandatory, and the last will depend on if you want reflect and further Glamour support (longer Time Warp) or extra damage from Compounding Power, Phantasmal Haste, and Master of Fragmentation.
  • I honestly don’t think this is a bad thing, and I think this will encourage some build diversity in PvE depending on if you want Inspiration’s support or Illusions’ damage. That’s cool with me.
• I do want to mention that Descent into Madness is a pretty poor trait that will never see use and could use an extra effect to actually justify bringing it anywhere other than when you expect to do a jumping puzzle. This isn’t a big deal, however.

Other than all that, I think Mesmers are in a great place.

surprised you guys arent more impressed by HMs buff aspect.
4% crit dmg (i assume) per use, with 8 second duration.
theoretically you could up your crit dmg by 48% for like 5 seconds.

of course after that your utilities are blown, but dont you dungeon dps dudes optimize for 10-20 second fights?

Jerus.4350:

Titanimite.2534:

Then Mesmer will remain in the dumpster where it is.

Strange, is taht the dumpster where we pull multiple of the same profession for speed runs out of? Are they hanging in there with Ele/thief/war?

Mesmers are anything but trash, they just have the worlds worst profession mechanic.

Don’t really see how their proffession mechanic is the worst. I think they kind of balanced them wrong though. They basically balance mes for max dps, ignoring that it has ramp up time and is mitigatable by aoe/offense.

Vox Hollow.2736:

Diversity isn’t quite the right word for describing potential outcomes.

You wouldn’t look at the room full of White guys and say it was a Racially Diverse group of people. Even if the group could have been otherwise – you still don’t call it Diverse until it actually is.

Semantics aside,
I think taking the technical approach here is a bit academic. It downplays the human element, and that feels a bit like talking-around-the-point on something so user-input-dependant as Making Choices. I think it’s good to try and be objective, but be objective about people’s subjective responses – not systemic technicalities that have little real world application.

Less like Permutation, More like Statistics.

Statistics won’t mean much. Most players don’t have optimal builds at all.

Yes this patch will drastically cut diversity. Most people won’t care though because they increased power.

The main focus of the change is simplification, mostly for players. As far as balancing, yeah you have less variables, but now each variable is more important.

The reason it may feel like a grindy f2p is because the further away from box sales they are, the more their revenue is basically the same as an f2p game.

Rising Dusk.2408:

Jerus.4350:

Your rotation makes sense Dusk, but the same problem that’s always been ther will still be there, likely you’ll have to shatter those things much sooner than that in many cases so they don’t simply die on you.

If you do, post-patch that’ll be fine given how strong Mind Wrack will be. I cannot stress enough that Mind Wrack is pretty decent burst already, and with a potential +75% layered on top of that alongside increased precision from Master of Fragmentation and the fact that you get Illusionary Persona for free makes the burst extreme. Shattering is going to be awesome, trust me, and you won’t look at shattering like its a bad thing.

There is a fairly good chance that 50% trait won’t make it to live.

obastable.5231:

I have 12 geared level 80’s capable of running multiple builds, with an average map completion of about 4% (leveled in WvW and using scrolls & gold to unlock traits), with over 5700 hours of play time across them all.

How much extra work am I going to have to do under the new system to make each one of those characters equal to what they are now?

heres the question, have they unlocked every trait and skill?

the 465 is what is required for a FULL unlock.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Devata.6589:

Yeah but when you have done it a second time your overall chance it would have dropped is 0,0019999% and on your 3th run you overall chance is 0,000299970001% and so on. But indeed, every run by itself stays the same.

You’re contradicting yourself. The odds for the occurrence of a random event do not improve across multiple tries.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Gambler%27s_fallacy

i think they are talking about your chances before the attempt

the chance of getting a red marble out of a 6 color bag goes up with more attempts before you try, but once you fail, the probablity collapses.

IE chance of getting red with 2 attempts, before you try isnt 1/6, but each time you try, its 1/6.
because the past doesnt effect the future.
also note, it is never guaranteed.

Lemuria.3195:

Astralporing.1957:

Removing grind by redefining it to not be called grind. Pure genius.
I guess since we solved that problem, people will stop complaining since they won’t be grinding anymo…
oh wait.

I fail to see how people have difficulty understanding such simple definitions. A grind is something you have to get through, farming is always optional. You’re not forced to grind for anything in this game, everything is pretty much given to you either as a reward for levelling or rewards for completing tasks.

So far I’ve not heard one compelling argument that shows Guild Wars could be considered a ‘grind’. The only cited examples are all optional extras which won’t interest every player and are designed to be rare.

See, here’s the thing. Rarity makes these things more valuable. If everyone could get them easily, they’d be less special and therefore less appealing. Their appeal essentially lies in being difficult to obtain. Just look at Guild Wars classic. Black dye was exceptionally rare, therefore people often clad themselves entirely in black. Not for aesthetics, but as a show of wealth because they COULD.

You want the best gear? You can get it doing just about any major content. Bloodstone dust drops like rain, dragonite ore can be gained from boss fights, empyrean from events. There you go, craft your own ascended gear.

You want the best looking gear? Well, you’ll have to work a bit longer for those rare items and do a bit of farming. It won’t make you any more powerful than your peers, but you’ll stand out because fewer people have it.

Is this really such a difficult concept to understand?

the point they were making is the definition of grind is an argument about the accepted meaning of words.

But what players are saying regardless of the meaning of the word is that when they try to play the game normally, it feels like they have to repeat content for long periods of time to try to make what they consider to be progress.

now, you can call that a different word if you want, but point is to many players how the game seems to promote them to play, is what they would call a grind.

so the question is, is that type of feeling they hope the game generates.

Tomoyo.3482:

if ya want grind try ff14 >.> when they give you a 50% exp boost to lvl up the other classes and give resets exp bonus there is major grind. the last 10 levels even with boost takes hours to do vs here. as some state near best gear (exotics) are cheap/free to get depending on how you go about it.

ff14 inst long. its averages to like an hour or so per level, with 50 levels. Do dungeons close to your level. Doing dailies is even faster
that said, its a lot harder for DD to get random dungeons than tanks or healers which tend to queue instantly.

nacario.9417:

Its unfair if vets have to start from scratch, cheap way of adding filler content and buying dev time

vets wont have to start from scratch, only people who havent done skill challenges will be behind, and every level 80 can unlock a large portion of all the skills/traits/etc without doing a skill challenge

honestly, i dont think their intention is to undo player work.

They dont really get anything out of it.

the system in place had problems though. They always intended skill challenges to be the most effecient method for getting skills, but they overshot it with skill point scrolls/bags/tomes.

I think the main intent for those things was supposed to be after you level, it turns into a means of progressing towards legendaries, special skins, special items/conversions etc.

you arent really supposed to have level 80 charachters who are max everything without setting foot in the world.

the main problem is this also eliminates the less effecient means of achieving the same thing. Sure it may have taken you long to get a skill point from leveling, but it was possible.

I really think the best solution is teleporter consumables, that go to skill points in the zone, you could get them from doing content like WvW ranks, spvp tracks.
only thing is they should be soul bound, and npc able for a decent amount of silver Only usable for CORE skill challenges.

problem is, how to give them to old charachters, not every level 80 has all traits and skills unlocked. It doesnt seem like it would be that simple to adapt the old and the new systems, aside from fully unlocked players.

Gibson.4036:

A simple solution I haven’t seen anyone make yet:

Adjust the numbers so all core traits and skills are unlocked by leveling to 80. This can be done either by adjusting how many points the tracks cost to unlock or the number of hero points gained from leveling up. All HP gained by skill challenges will then be used for elite specializations.

Done. No one’s character gets nerfed, and no one ends up with extra HP.

This should be the rule of thumb. New systems should be applied to new content. It would have saved a lot of grief over the first trait revamp if the new trait unlocks were only applied to new traits.

which changes nothing.
because then they will have to up the cost of unlocking the elite specialization.

which in the long run, if they end up adding more elites, as they say they might, means you will actually have to grind more skill points total.

every point they put in the level up system basically means in the long term, each skill challenge gets you less actual skills.

if they had used the old numbers, its likely you may only have to do 50-60 skill challenges per elite spec, whereas now, its probably going to be around 100.

in the long run? it would probably be better if they decreased the amount from leveling.
your basically going to have to like 80-90% skill challenge completion to get all skills/spec no matter what.

RyuDragnier.9476:

phys.7689:

Celtic Lady.3729:

Yeah, I wish we knew exactly how many new zones we’re getting and how big they’re going to be. When the game launched there was what? 22 large zones to explore?

I hope there’s at least half that many in the expansion.

My guess is 3 new zones.

Colin said they dont really want a very big world.

I hope it’s 5-6 new zones, that’s far more acceptable than 3.

well, they said its one region they are adding;
currently regions range from 3-7 zones.

so you can expect that range.

Celtic Lady.3729:

Yeah, I wish we knew exactly how many new zones we’re getting and how big they’re going to be. When the game launched there was what? 22 large zones to explore?

I hope there’s at least half that many in the expansion.

My guess is 3 new zones.

Colin said they dont really want a very big world.

RyuDragnier.9476:

phys.7689:

radioAspen.6829:

phys.7689:

but every hero point needs to be accounted for, for the system to work.

I do know what you’re saying, I’m just not sure that this part is actually true. There are already way more potential hero points in the world than any one character needs, and unless their longterm plan is for them to be considerably more limited with future elite specs, I don’t really see what the problem of having some imbalances is, aside from it just being sloppy.

no there isnt.
465 is the estimate for getting all your CORE specializations/skills

if the elite one takes the same amount you will need about 95 for the spec/skills that puts you at 155/209 or something
now likely there will be some unlock for racials/toxin spray that will probably use most of the rest of the points (if elite spec isnt more expensive)

regardless even if you only need 155/200 whatever you still wont have enough to unlock the whole next spec when it comes out, until you do the new content.

Did they mention how many new zones, skill challenges, etc they were adding in the expansion? Because odds are there’s going to be a lot to help with the numbers.

i mean post HOT specializations. All indications suggest that someone with all current points will be able to unlock the whole new line, or really close to it.

ASP.8093:

Hmm… What happens if you just move HM to Inspiration? (Where it kinda fits in thematically, and gets to live with its best friend Mender’s Purity.)

it doesnt fit in inspiration really. Its about more power. if i had to move it, i would move it to illusion or domination.

truth is, it doesnt fit perfectly anywhere theme wise.

tobascodagama.2961:

Neijala Ceya.1785:

My concern is mostly for PvE and not PvP. So I guess we misunderstood each other.
And an interrupt build won’t work very well in PvE.

Actually, our interrupt skills will carry a lot of weight when breaking through Defiance. So I wouldn’t be so sure that an interrupt has no place there.

But the main reason I brought up a PvP-style build is that the main argument against HM as a GM trait is that it’s competing with Deceptive Evasion. DE isn’t considered core in PvE builds, so there’s not really a strong argument against taking HM in a non-interrupt PvE build.

So, if we’re talking about PvE, picture a Phantasm/Reflect support build that goes Due/Ins/X to combo Warden’s Feedback with Evasive Mirror. You’re going to be using Mantras for condi cleanse, stability, and heals anyway. Why not get more mantra uses and a damage buff to it? Dungeon reflect builds already went for Assassin stats, and that synergises with the buff HM gives you on Mantra use. And, again, it’s not like you’re going to use DE for PvE content.

this is a flawed premise, they arent trying to make DE into pvp only builds. Also just because a build isnt top DPS doesnt mean it shouldnt exist.

short version DE+HM should definately be a possibility

Sebrent.3625:

Obviously all of the classes are getting “new shinies” with the new Specialization system … Mesmers included.

Regardless of how you feel about those, I’ve noticed a trend with them … every class is gaining considerably more access to boons

I see this is the first indirect buff to Mesmers as Mesmers are the kings/queens of removing boons. Sure, Necromancers can do it too, but not in nearly as many ways nor as often as many different Mesmer builds.

Additionally, all sorts of effects are becoming boons (like Quickness). Mesmers like to manipulate boons. Obviously, Mesmer can steal enemy quickness (or strip it) …

… but this means Mesmer can also share these effects … while the tooltip doesn’t include it yet (they just re-used the old tooltip), I imagine it will soon also include Quickness.

Yes, I do have Quickness … let me share it with everyone … casts a Phantasm.

Want some more of that Quickness? Let me weapon swap and share it some more.

Oh look, there is another Mesmer in the party … let’s keep sharing our Quickness by summoning phantasms as often as possible.

Looking at the complains, I guess the PvE folk hadn’t thought about this one since they keep saying they are “getting nothing for PvE” … oh well … some people always complain early and complain often

Let’s recap this …

• two Mesmers in a group.
• Both Mesmers drop Time Warp … it’s a boon now so it should stack in duration.
• Now each Mesmer is spec’d for Illusionary Inspiration so each time they summon a Phantasm, they share all their boons … likely including that Quickness … it is becoming a boon after all ;-)
• Constant Quickness anyone?

time warp will probably be pulsing 1 second
also that trait has 45 second cool down

radioAspen.6829:

phys.7689:

but every hero point needs to be accounted for, for the system to work.

I do know what you’re saying, I’m just not sure that this part is actually true. There are already way more potential hero points in the world than any one character needs, and unless their longterm plan is for them to be considerably more limited with future elite specs, I don’t really see what the problem of having some imbalances is, aside from it just being sloppy.

no there isnt.
465 is the estimate for getting all your CORE specializations/skills

if the elite one takes the same amount you will need about 95 for the spec/skills that puts you at 155/209 or something
now likely there will be some unlock for racials/toxin spray that will probably use most of the rest of the points (if elite spec isnt more expensive)

regardless even if you only need 155/200 whatever you still wont have enough to unlock the whole next spec when it comes out, until you do the new content.

Windsagio.1340:

I’ve never felt HM fit in that tree anyways, feels ‘off’ to me ><

pretty sure it was in the power line initially, then they juggled/combined it or something. But i could be misremembering.

Neijala Ceya.1785:

DPS is the most important thing in meta. You only trait supports when it is really necassary in the situation or you take it along because there is no option for dmg increase instead.

Depending on the enemies you need reflect, blindness, condi remove or stability and maybe some aegis. Most of those can be provided without the need to trait them. Not considering blindness all of those can easily be provided by a single guard while mantaining high dps. Even if more of those are needed a second guard will stake make more damage than a mesmer providing the reflect and condi cleanse.

Regen and additional heal are not needed. Maybe protection, but for that the guard will equip a hammer and won’t lose much damage doing so.

Team dps is most important, personal dps isnt. Warrior and guardian both have higher DPS builds, but they provide things that keeps the group DPS higher more easily with other builds, that are meta.

Also keep in mind the encounter design effects the meta as well. Defiance bar itself may change the nature of the value of various CCs

anyhow, point is there is a range of acceptable dps depending on what else you provide.

Kitrine.5913:

Windsagio.1340:

Dadnir.5038:

Windsagio.1340:

Was deciding which off the many threads to put this in, this wone will do.

DIfferent builds aren’t diverse builds

Adding Bolt to the Heart and Vital striking and stone splinters didn’t change the way you played, they just increased damage (the limitations weren’t meaningful),

Taking all 3 symbol traits in the guardian Honor line, was meaningfully playstyle defining, and it required you downgrade your GM trait to master… So they made it so the ‘play defining trait’ is the grandmaster in the tree. Similarly in the same tree if you wanted to do shouts.

Almost all the ‘diversity’ people are complaining about is minor damage optimizations and nothing that speaks to the real play style.

In fact, that’s my challenge.

Present a play style that’s lost with this change NOT a specific build, but a way of playing.

I honestly can’t think of any.

Ok Let’s see what we got :

An AA tanking gardian lose either heal/defensive symbole for sustain which are in Honor or pure blind defensive power by spamming F1 in radiance or easy boon generation which is in Virtue. Overall it’s a net loss in survivability because you need this minor trait to survive and this is 4 different traitline.

Playing a tanky Necromancer based spectral, WH and siphon. I had a build that needed curse, Death magic, blood magic and soul reaping. A build really effective that didn’t care about bad GM trait. Now, I can stretch it in whatever way I want, I can gain meaning full buff here and there but whatever I do, I still have a net loss in survivability. (I could even say that these changes shut down any hope for necromancer’s siphon to have any usefullness ever, people tried and tried again it’s impossible DS hurt siphons and with these change DS will remain whatever elite specializations they can add)

Lot’s of mesmers builds are shaken to their very core because deceptive evasion is becoming a GM trait which will result in a net loss of dps, survivability and support.

I think it’s already enough for the challenge.

There is one more thing. This system, with the traits as they’ve been presented lock down a lot of prefession into their own weakness without any hope that a specialization may correct any of them.

The most meaningfull exemple being the necromancer which starve to be free from the shackles that come along with DS. DS prevent any buff to siphon and at the same time DS prevent siphon to be effective. DS prevent any new defensives means to appear because DS is supposed to be the defensive mean (with it’s strengh and flaw). DS prevent any new support because it’s also supposed to be the support mean. Each and every trait that are scattered in all necromancer’s traitline are Nails on it’s own coffin preventing him to see the light of an evolution.

And it will be the same for every other profession, this system only allow poor addition like the underwater DS that can’t even work with some of the necromancer’s DS traits.

You’re wrong in the first case, pure tank guardian is fine with these changes, blind isn’t a necessary part of your tank build if you play/are built right and your team plays right

Can’t speak for necros, I know they’re pretty unhappy (beyond normal new change levels), gonna look into it now ><.

Well I know my Mesmer isn’t crying over DE becoming a GM trait. (PvE only so I can’t comment on PvP) but yeah DE is not important to my build and even if it was they are not culling it. Just rearranging it.

I see this a a chance to play new content and old content in a new way which sounds awesome, and yay for not just grinding the same content the exact same way forever. Clearly this system isn’t going to be perfect not even close but everyone raging when they haven’t even tried it is so sad. Like if you want to play a game that NEVER changes go play Legue or something I guess. ????

GM is no longer relevant to anything, its more about your choices in that slot.

The position of DE only really kills non phantasm mantra builds. But IMO thats a good playstyle to keep.
The could keep it GM but move it to another teir, or move harmonious.

however if you dont care about HM/DE of course it wont effect you.

radioAspen.6829:

phys.7689:

radioAspen.6829:

I get that they can’t really grandfather characters into the new spec system (short of just unlocking everything for all existing characters) since traits don’t really exist in the same way, but I wonder if it would be possible for them to fix the problem via skills?

Just have all pre-existing characters keep whatever unlocked skills they have when the system rolls over, so that it frees up all of those leveling hero points just for use with specializations.

I’m not sure if this would be possible for them to code with the new skill wheel, or if characters having those excess hero points would be an issue for their design goals for some reason, but it’s the most organic solution I’ve been able to come up with so far.

the thing you arent really getting is, they are basically using skill points as the new horizontal progression system.
They cant give away any points without you earning them, because then when you go back and earn them, you would have too many points.

the reason they want to put a lock on it, is so that when new skills/specializations come out, you have to go and get points.

basically asking for them to give you skill points without doing skill challenges, would be like….
letting people with old charachters gain enough experience to automatically hit lv 100 till the cap catches up, when the cap is like lv 50 in another game. But only people who were 50 before the change would have the option.

I’m not sure that’s really the issue that you’re making it out to be? We know they want hero points to be “finite” in that there are no repeatable sources of them, but they don’t seem to want them to be limited such that you’re ever locked out of potential stuff by a point cap. Characters with a lot of skill challenges completed already have early access to elite specs and so forth. I’m not sure there’s really such a thing as “too many points” (at least I’m not seeing what kind of design issue it could possibly cause, but I spoke to that in my original post), but if they do want to avoid creating the huge point imbalance that would result from unlocking everything on pre-existing characters while also avoiding reversing character progress, then I feel something like my suggestion would create a minimal amount of fuss. But again, they may be fine with one of the two extreme circumstances, we don’t really know their design goals.

I’m also not sure it’s fair to look at this system, at least holistically, as the equivalent to a new level cap in other games. Outside of elite specs, it’s built out of things that characters already have, and setting that back is taking things away from established characters. Furthermore it doesn’t affect all characters evenly, it’s very dependent on arbitrary things like where and how you level, or whether or not you primarily play pve or wvw.

I mean it’s just a bit weird to think that we could have a situation where, say, a three year old WvW character will have to go invest hours and hours in pve content just to be back to where they were before the shift, while a two month old pve character with world completion but considerably less playtime can be fully skilled, traited, and have an elite spec on day one.

I mean if that’s what they want to do, then that’s what they want to do. But it just seems odd and unnecessary.

im not really talking about the right or wrong of it, im just explaining how the system is set up to work.

Basically they have a soft cap of Hero Points.
the most you can get is 400 from leveling and than all the skill challenges currently in the world
thats it.
now, that amount is close to what you need to get all the core spec, and the new elite spec.

in the future, they will add new specs, and more means of getting hero points, that will be how you unlock the new specs.

Now, if they give people hero points, without them actually doing the skill challenges, then once they do the challenges they will have more hero points than should be possible. Then when new spec comes out, they wont have to do any of the new hero point content in order to unlock the spec.

Only charachters who were givien free hero points would have this advantage.

that is why, if they cant just give people points, they have to unlock the challenges, they can make it easier to unlock them, but every hero point needs to be accounted for, for the system to work.

The other thing they could do, is change the whole system.

Neijala Ceya.1785:

My concern is mostly for PvE and not PvP. So I guess we misunderstood each other.
And an interrupt build won’t work very well in PvE.

I think there are plenty nice options for builds in PvP and HM could be used there nicely to bust an enemy with shatter. The problem is that there are so many traits that won’t be useful in the current PvE meta and PvE mesmers should have at least 1 good option (which doesn’t include spamming mantras to keep a damage buff up any other class could have far easier).

i wouldnt put all my hopes for DPS on any one build
Ie, their goal should be to have multiple playstyles that can achieve good enough DPS through some means or another.

Also i dont know if optimal DPS is the only roles that matter for PVE. supporting the whole team has always been fairly important.

also i hope encounters, and AI is improved so that fights arent as simple as they are now.

Shylock.4653:

phys.7689:

the major difference is extra levels dont count, and no skill point scrolls.

phys.7689:

i think they could come up with something to appease older players, and possibly to help WvW players who are willing to spend more time in wvw than they would spend in pve,

Not only for WvW-Players although for PvP-Players, otherwise this changes will divide the player-base even further into the different game-modes. WvW-Players are forced to play PvE to be able to play WvW. PvP-Players are excluded from any other game-mode unless they are willing to spend hours and hours in PvE.

If you dont want to PVE, why go to PVE (for spvp crowd)

Anyhow, best solution is to give out teleport to skill point consumables. They had something with scarlet
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Twisted_Watchwork_Portal_Device

except it only goes to skill points.
give them out for gaining ranks in WvW, or an sPVP track.

you will still have to kill monsters/commune/may die, and may get some repeats, but ehh, i dont think that would be too much to ask.

radioAspen.6829:

I get that they can’t really grandfather characters into the new spec system (short of just unlocking everything for all existing characters) since traits don’t really exist in the same way, but I wonder if it would be possible for them to fix the problem via skills?

Just have all pre-existing characters keep whatever unlocked skills they have when the system rolls over, so that it frees up all of those leveling hero points just for use with specializations.

I’m not sure if this would be possible for them to code with the new skill wheel, or if characters having those excess hero points would be an issue for their design goals for some reason, but it’s the most organic solution I’ve been able to come up with so far.

the thing you arent really getting is, they are basically using skill points as the new horizontal progression system.
They cant give away any points without you earning them, because then when you go back and earn them, you would have too many points.

the reason they want to put a lock on it, is so that when new skills/specializations come out, you have to go and get points.

basically asking for them to give you skill points without doing skill challenges, would be like….
letting people with old charachters gain enough experience to automatically hit lv 100 till the cap catches up, when the cap is like lv 50 in another game. But only people who were 50 before the change would have the option.

Pixelpumpkin.4608:

phys.7689:

Vayne.8563:

xarallei.4279:

This system just doesn’t feel alt friendly at all. Which is very surprising considering the direction that HoT has been taking with making things alt friendly (such as the way masteries will work). Anet, PLEASE take alts into consideration when you think about how you want this system to work. I do not want to be running around on every single character doing hero challenges over and over again for skills I already unlocked.

Not sure how it’s not alt friendly. Assuming you’re leveling your alts to 80 (and if you’re not going into higher level zones not sure why you need traits anyway), you’ll get most of the hero points you need just from that. You can fill in what you want by doing skill point challenges, now call hero point challenges.

Are you saying going and getting some skill points is a big deal.

And if you’re only PvPing it’s all unlocked anyway so in theory the only people for whom it wouldn’t be alt friendly are WvWer’s who don’t PvE at all.

a lot of people didnt level their chrs by map complete.
wvw
scrolls
eotm
crafting

while one skill challenge is easy, 65 is not so much.

65, PLUS the points you need to unlock the subclass stuff.

So that equals between 25% and 50% of known Tyria. With 19 alts (all leveled in PvP), that is kind of a big deal for me. If I have to run my alt through Tyria and do skill challenges, I can live with that, but I really, really don’t want to do it 19 times over.

yeah subclass is a seperate deal, but that was never gonna be like automatic. Under the first system, they charged us 25 skill points for a new heal.
5 new skills would likely have costed 150 skill points anyhow.

if you want to play an alt, you are probably going to have to play the alt.

Shylock.4653:

phys.7689:

its way less work.

Yes it is less work than the actual system. But the actual system has replaced a far better system in which you only had to spend a few gold pieces for the unlock. The actual system has caused literally thousands of complains in the forum. So we are going from a big mess to a smaller mess.

I wouldn’t mind if I had to do this with one char. But to do it with each and every char really sucks. Especially after we were told it would get better for people with many chars. I can’t see any improvement for players with multiple characters. You still have to do all unlocks for all chars.

thing is, its actually less work than just getting skills used to be.
so you could just think of the traits as being free.

before you get like 76 skill points from leveling, and you need 150 more to unlock all the rest of the skills(before here means under the first system)

now you get 400 hero points from leveling, and you need 60 to unlock the rest of the skills. AND traits

now, imagining racials, maybe tht 150 goes down to 100.

still less work for all skills/traits after the change.

the major difference is extra levels dont count, and no skill point scrolls.

but honestly, the excess skill point stuff that was going on was sort of defeating the purpose of char progression.

i think they could come up with something to appease older players, and possibly to help WvW players who are willing to spend more time in wvw than they would spend in pve,

but the system is not worse in terms of effort than what previously existed.

Warcry.1596:

One thing people are seeming to forget is the specialization traitline is coming out, adding a new set of traits. With 6 lines, there are 18 possible combinations, but that doesnt include the 9 traits per line. How it is now, many traits are used just to get to the Grandmaster despite being worthless. With this new system, most (NOTE: most), lines have a trait in each tier to cover what you want. If a line doesn’t, you don’t use that line.

Also, with each new specialization added as the game ages, it will have MORE combinations. We should go into this with an open mind, I for one, as a necro player, am excited for whats to come.

each spec will add 270 posibilities.
right now its 270

however that is expansion material, sooooo …..

as far as the ones after that, that is a long ways off, heck it may never happen.
like that 2 handed great axe they wanted to do way back when.

TooBz.3065:

Rauderi.8706:

TooBz.3065:

The discussion point was that the new trait system is not alt friendly. If the answer is “don’t do it on all your alts” then that pretty much proves the point, does it not?

I seem to be taking the opposite route to managing all my 90s and upcoming alts:

Get it done now so it’s not a qq later.

We’ve been told what’s coming and how they intend to handle it. It’s still months of development time away. We can not say we’re caught with our pants down on this one.

I agree. I’ve been running my engineer though skill challenges. That doesn’t mean that it’s what I want to be doing though…

I think it would be far better if they gave a hero point for each WvW level … Or did something like the skill scrolls, where you get a hero point potion for each WvW level, so you can’t double up on alts. (using skill scrolls wouldn’t work because they’ve been handing those out like candy.)

wont work with a limited skill point system.

• they could give teleporter scrolls for WvW
  that teleport you to a random skill point location.

• they could change the limit to a capped system, and give you points for WvW ranks

Carighan.6758:

phys.7689:

How do you think designers come up with this stuff if its impossible to tell anything until it already exists?

Eh… from past experiences with virtually any game development, by basing their ideas on what’d be “cool”. Or “interesting”. Numbers and balance are stuff to do later, once overall design is bolted down.

you start of with whats cool
then you come up with logical systems/math
then you test it, then you adjust it.

you can skip the logic/math, but that usually ends up taking longer to solve, much like trying to solve a math problem by trial and error.

Neijala Ceya.1785:

I talk about the new HM trait as they want it to be. Mantra Damage was used in PvE to max damage. Though they have changed how the dmg works it would still be used this way in PvE (by spamming mantras).

The trait without the damage as a master trait would be perfectly fine and a good option for those who like to play with mantras. And it could be paired with DE, which would benefit shatter builds with mantras as well.

you wont easily get max damage if you have to use it constantly, before it was max damage because it was a passive buff. constantly casting mantras will cut into your dps/survivability.

ASP.8093:

Neijala Ceya.1785:

I think of Harmonious Mantras as an really terrible trait in the way you have to play in order to utilize it. To waste your utility skills and deeply restrict your playstyle just for some <12% per cent dmg if you try to optimize it? Doesn’t sound like a good deal to me.

You’re thinking of Empowered Mantras.

Harmonious Mantras is “each mantra gets an extra charge when charged.” I.e. 3 instead of 2. That means more healing, more interrupts, more condition removal, &c. Builds that run it right now tend to use about 2.5 mantras.

In the preview, a weird new alternative of Empowered Mantras (basically working the opposite way) has been merged into HM. Honestly, I’m hardly even thinking about that trait here.

…

Hmm. What if HM were “baseline?” Would it be particularly busted to give folks three charges of mantra heal, MoR, MoD, &c. by default?

In the current trait setup, the whole reason for taking HM if you can manage is that charging a mantra just go get 2 charges kinda sucks, but most of them end up pretty efficient at 3.

i thought about that, but then what would the trait be, i dont think the dps one is good enough on its own, and a dps focused mantra trait probably shouldnt be opposed to a DE one.

Carighan.6758:

Chameleon Dude.1564:

Random, mindless complaining – that we can do without. But if there is a clear flaw in something upcoming, it makes more sense to tell Anet now instead of waiting for it to be completed and added to the live game.

Not really. Yes, some voicing of concerns makes sense, but you cannot see a flaw yet (or at least, not really) because you’re only seeing 10% of the picture right now.

For example for HoT, we don’t know the power baseline. We have 0 way to judge traits because we don’t know skills and don’t know the intended DPS.

power baseline is irrelevant. The trait balance/design isnt about power versus content(which they easily adjust), its about builds, and power versus other builds. How do you think designers come up with this stuff if its impossible to tell anything until it already exists?

PookieDaWombat.6209:

While infinitely easier for alts to acquire, my problem here is going to be my established level 80s, like my engie, that has been one of my mains in this gamer since the beginning is going to essentially be rolled back and made useless until I’ve run her around PvE to get to the SP challenges. That’s frankly nonsense and there are tons pf people that leveled in WvW and PvP using tomes, etc that are also going to feel this in a bad way.

There is honestly no reason why toons that have full skill unlock currently and full trait unlock current cannot be grandfathered in to the new system far as i can tell. Instead they are going to take things away from players that have invested a lot of time into this game. This is a very bad move.

if your engineer was made early, how did you get the skill points for her skills?
tons of WvW? i seriously ask this, because skill point hunting was the fastest method for obtaining skill points until they put skill points in bags. you probably average 3-10 minutes per skill point, whereas leveling would generally take 30 min to an hour?

UnitedChaos.8364:

I’ve been reading thread after thread about how ‘my build is ruined…qq’ and ‘i hate change…qq’.

But frankly until the patch is live and everyone has change to experiment with these changes, there is no reason to complain. From my point of view, every single class has been improved. Yes, some obviously broken but fun skills (ice bow) were lowered, but until the patch is live, we just don’t know. Their goal is to make everything viable and fun and not to just faceroll everything.

I, if you didn’t know, only play ranger; so I’ve been paying close attention to the ranger thread. Sure, there are a lot of great changes coming, but it seems all the ‘experts’ are finding every single thing they don’t like and blowing it out of proportion. Like they said, this is not the final product, it is a work in progress.

I would assume since they are redoing the trait system that many, if not all, skills will be updated and adjusted to work/function better.

tl;dr Calm down. You are not an ‘expert’. Until the changes are live, we just don’t know what will come to fruition.

because they told people to talk about the builds that dont work, and to theorycraft.

some people are good at looking at the data and figuring out things.

Its to the benefit of the team.

biggest problem i would say is the information is not that well organized, many different forums, many different threads.

this is a WIP and feedback is still useful

Zarania.5879:

Teutos.8620:

They are scaling with your stats.

except for health/tougness and other defensive stats, right?

then again it wouldnt explain why the pistol illusion always crits for no reason lol..

they get your toughness, clones. anyhow. a guy with a ton of toughness has clones that take a few hits to die.

i dont remember if phantasms get toughness.

Shylock.4653:

Anet are you trolling us?

One of the biggest complains about the trait system was that you have to do the unlocking/buying with each and every char. Now we have to do skill challenges with each and every char.

In your news you told us:

“The new, more streamlined unlock system is friendlier to new players and much less of a burden on players with multiple characters.”
https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/specializations-part-one-a-primer/

How exactly is this “less of a burden” when you have to do the unlocking with each and every char?

i got to be honest here.
its way less work.
the old method was 360 skill points if you bought them
if you did the activities, very few of them was shorter than a skill point.

you always needed skill points for skills
it took 222-234 to unlock all your skills for a class, with 270ish available in the world
so basically you would level to 80, and need to do like 100 skill point challenges, probably getting 20 extra levels from random crap.

it actually takes less work now to unlock all your skills/traits, than it used to take just to unlock all your skills.

the main difference is eventually they started handing skill scrolls out like candy