Guild Wars 2

Windwalker.7421:

Didn’t read everything, but on the point of attrition builds using Condies, we already have it and will more so with the improved PU and various improvements to Condition builds in general.

Having your Clones apply both Bleed & Confusion on crits, while you’re off in Stealth gaining boons, is pretty much the definition of attrition. ;-)

Staff Clones will add Burning and Vuln to that mix, Scepter Clones add Torment… Basically you stay in stealth and just keep generating clones and gaining buffs so that whenever you’re not in stealth, you’ll probably have Aegis & Protection up 75% of the time. (Not to mention the improved traited Staff Chaos Armor.)

interestingly enough, clone death factories would have required way more activity.

Neijala Ceya.1785:

I think of Harmonious Mantras as an really terrible trait in the way you have to play in order to utilize it. To waste your utility skills and deeply restrict your playstyle just for some <12% per cent dmg if you try to optimize it? Doesn’t sound like a good deal to me.

I therefore would like to see it removed. As this trait was used mostly in PvE it should be replaced by something that makes up for this. Because mesmers are mostly welcomed because of their ultilies and reflect, I would suggest to move Warden’s Feedback there and add about 25% reflect dmg to ALL of the mesmer skills that reflect. Considering the mesmers damage modifiers compared to those of the guardian I don’t think that would be much to high.
This also solves the problem for PvE mesmers that they would have to trade much damage in order to drop one traitline so that they can take Inspiration which contains nothing else that suits the berserker meta.

Evasive Mirror could then be moved to Inspiration so that it can be combined with Blade Training and so presents another defensive option for reflect instead of Warden’s Feedback.

A wekaer form of Harmonious Mantras could be fashioned as a Master trait (just remove the damage?) in Duelling to complete the line. So it can be equipped without sacrificing any of the GM traits instead.

Or in short:

1. Remove the damage from HM and make it an Master trait
2. Move Evasive Mirror to Inspiration instead
3. Make Warden’s Feedback the new Duelling GM trait and add 25% reflect damage

And I would like to to see Temporal Enchanter giving stability instead of super speed!

HM may not be optimal
but its a fun trait/different playstyle.

I really dont like getting rid of playstyle changes.

they are changing the DPS buff to be based on activation, buff to critcal damage, and stacking, which makes it not about just holding charges, but actively using them at the right time.
Basically burst related.

the functionality may change though.

having to use the healing line for the benefit of healing mantras, makes sense to me.

wardens feedback is too niche for GM imo.
dont think they want to increase reflect dmg either, people already claim OP on it.

MailMail.6534:

phys.7689:

how is generating clones passive when it requires actively using/managing endurance/weaponskill cool downs.

arent all attrition tank builds based around doing defensive actions while applying annoying slow dots/dps over time?
why is it cheesy for mesmer but aok for necros, theives, guardians, rangers.

The underlined frames your argument in a really unproductive way tbh. I’d like to refrain from using the word “cheesy”. AI builds are inherently more passive than other builds. This is fact. Some classes are more/less dependent on AI with varying functions. Basically, bringing up the other classes is a moot point imo.

But to take on your opinion on how “active” clone death builds are, the only thing you’re managing is your endurance bar. And I think the main critique is that no matter what your actions are, you get a “win-win” situation by summoning clones. Either they take the dmg or kill the clones and take damage. Looking at it from the outside, there’s nothing to really manage for the person in a win-win situation, right??

Listen, as anyone on these forums can attest to, I’ve been the biggest proponent of clone death builds! That being said, I don’t think this is the biggest grievance ever… We can focus our energies or correcting the bigger underlying issue related to these clone death traits which is… clone survivability.

The whole AI aspect is bull when it comes to mesmers. clones are basically slow homing missles, thats not really AI any more than a channel skill is, or a condition.

being a clone factory is a highly active style of play.
you have to be constantly doing things, swapping weapons at the right times, and burning your dodges.
it is countered by dodges/line of sight for targeted skills
immobilization/boon stripping/weakness for dodge reduction
interupts/stuns/dazes
condis

or just having high defense/hp return and some aoes.

being that it requires constant reapplication to be effective, it not working for a couple seconds is a big deal.

and clone death isnt a win win. Even with all on death traits, you are looking at one stack of confusion a cripple and a completely random condition. you are giving up stronger traits except for confusion, which is extremely light on dmg in pvp where people actually want on death traits.

shatters do more damage and have better effects, and phantasms do more damage. people choosing on death traits are looking to wear people down, or debilitate them. they have weak points and ways to be dealth with like any other enemy.

MailMail.6534:

messiah.1908:

MailMail.6534:

SUGGESTION
Keep out the offensive clone death traits. Combine Compounding Celerity & Vigorous Revelation for a new trait:
Vigorous Dissipation - Clones apply Vigor (2s) and Swiftness (3s) to nearby allies when they are killed. # of Targets – 5. Radius – 240.
Thoughts?

vigor will bring up your endurance after 5 sec (for 1 dodge) its 5 sec you are alone and easy target to die
i say maybe each clone die will bring back 10% endurance so combine with regular endurance refill if 3 clones get killed you have 1 more dodge to create new one
now this must be clone killed and not replaced by new clone

Just to reiterate the point I’m trying to make, the purpose of this trait wouldn’t be to give mesmers an incentive to let their clones die. You want to shatter them and make sure they make it to their target. The trait is simply to slightly offset the imbalance that AOE dmg has against our class by adding some survivability and mobility. With DE and weapon CDs, clones are easy to generate, which is why clone death traits are frowned upon in the first place for being “easy” and “passive”.

While your percentage idea is nice, I think actually giving vigor adds more syngery with other traits considering it’s a boon. And I think it’s important that the trait be AOE for team support.

how is generating clones passive when it requires actively using/managing endurance/weaponskill cool downs.

arent all attrition tank builds based around doing defensive actions while applying annoying slow dots/dps over time?
why is it cheesy for mesmer but aok for necros, theives, guardians, rangers.

Jedge.3619:

phys.7689:

uhhh, phantasms are just as passive as clone death play.
if not more so.

I have a mesmer, i dont play clone death style because i am an offensive type player. that doesnt mean a defensive attrition based style should not exist within the class.

i have also played against it. It is annoying, it is supposed to be annoying. just like the tanky eles, the tanky guardians, the tanky thieves, necros etc.

just because i dont play it, doesnt mean it should not exist. Just because it is annoying to fight doesnt mean it should not exist.

Do you actually know which illusion will die last to proc DD when you dodge (DE)? Do you have a choice which illusion dies when you use an illusion summoning skill? The answer is: no. The original intention of DE was as you’ve stated, to punish those killing illusions. However, the main issue with DD in its current form is that you have very little control and it is being abused. If you have 3 illusions up – and you use an illusion summoning skill, why should your opponent be punished with DD because you removed a clone, not them. Mesmer’s are getting extra free conditions from that trait which is the main problem.

because any clone that is destroyed is using up a resource. if you are destroying clones by burning clone generators, you are wasting your generators.

If you chose to slot clone on death traits, you gave up some other traits that were most likely just as strong.

It isnt “free” the mesmer decides how deadly he wants his clone to be, and what the best way the opponent has to deal with them, based on his build.

phantasm build has weak fodder clones
shatter is going to try to blow you up/burst
on death is attrition based

ignore phantasm clones (if they even exist)
dodge shatter clones at the key moments
out sustain on death clones.

you may hate attrition builds, but everyone else has them. and the attrition concept definately fits the mesmer range of playstyles.

Toeofdoom.6152:

I still disagree about it being necessary now that everyone can use IP

• distortion works fine with IP
• you need 1 or maybe 2 clones to max out diversion, easy.
• you just got 4 bonus boon rips from IP if you need them
• final burst is quite high with 1 clone and self, extras aren’t that important.

There are also cooldown traits that may allow other fast sources of illusion production. In general the 1-2% numbers are expected to be bugs and potentially even mean seconds.

you dont NEED anything, but even with DE mantra build was not overperforming

think you forget is illusionary persona is a shatter based around the caster
so most on shatter effects/dmg are worthless unless the target is meleeing you at the time and diversion defaults to the target closest to you.

• distortion works better with more clones
• needing 1 or 2 clones is easier when you can create 2-6 more clones per 20 seconds
• 4 boon rips? gonna waste distortion/diversion on boon removal
• final burst is always higher with more clones https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Illusionary_Persona looks like the last clone is def worth it.

DE basically can give you 2-6 more clones per 20 seconds.
shattered clones can give

• random boons
• vulnerability
• remove boons
• vigor
• heals
• might
• torment

do you really think this stuff isnt valuable?

you realize many mantra mes had this before, and they were still considered niche? how will they do without it?

runeblade.7514:

I don’t see whats wrong niche traits existing like “Expeditious Spirit,” “Amplified Wrath,” “Perfect Inscriptions,” or “Radiant Retaliation” as long as they have a purpose.

I do agree that a lot of traitlines needs to have more jack of all trades traits.

Specialization aren’t final and because of that, ANet/the community can easily identify and fix the mistake of traitlines being too specific or that it is too powerful/weak. In the current trait system, the problem would be hard to fix as it would destroy the balance of the profession for all builds.

point is specialization traits do need to exist.
however now that every trait choice is 1/3 that takes a lot of possibilities out of the running.

combine that with being fully specced into every line, and you begin to have to pick things just because they are there.

Jedge.3619:

phys.7689:

Jedge.3619:

Ithilwen.1529:

I play clone death and it’s not passive at all.

Wait what? The point of shatter is to shatter your clones to deal extra damage, not watch them die to do damage. Any spec can put on debilitating dissipation (which is random btw, no guaranteed bleed) and just wait for their clones to die. The point of a Mesmer’s mechanics is to shatter your clones – its a class mechanic. They want you actively deciding whether or not to interrupt, deal damage/condi damage/ or save yourself with distortion. That is an active playstyle. Which is why IP is being made baseline. Dodge-rolling with 3 clones up and spawning more clones just to get “conditions.” Btw, do you actually know which clone dies last to proc DD when you dodge or create a clone at 3, the answer is probably not. I’m extremely glad they’re removing this trait from the game. i’m sure you can come up with other trait lines in the new chaos tree to suit your playstyle.

no, one aspect of your clones is to shatter them.
there is a reason they look exactly like you.
they also supposed to be deceptive.

a tank/distraction mesmer actually wants his clones alive, and taking damage until the moment they die. Shattering all your distractions/meat shields at once, is only a good idea when the benefits outweigh the loss.

Now, i personally never really used the build, but to claim its pointless, or against the class design is foolish. Mesmer is not defined as being a explosion factory.

Mesmers are magical duelists who wield deception as a weapon. Using powerful illusions, clones, and phantasmal magic to confuse and distract their foes, mesmers make sure every fight is balanced in their favor and their opponents can’t believe their eyes.

deception as a weapon: nothing deceptive about blowing up every illusion you have
confuse and distract: yup taking damage for attacking the wrong guy is confusing and distracting
cant believe your eyes: yup once again decieving the enemy/making the wrong choices.

clone death is very much one part of the idea behind mesmer.

If you’ve never used the build before, how can you either argue for or against it unless you’ve experienced it – maybe you’ve fought it before? A good player, will rarely pick the wrong mesmer – its pretty easy to tell who the real one is. There’s nothing deceptive about dodge-rolling or creating a new clone and having it explode causing new conditions. Sure, killing a clone is “deceptive” but doing the former is not. That is the main issue is the passivity of that specific playstyle. Phantasm/staff mode builds want their illusions alive possibly. There’s a reason they’re also adding in new traits to promote shattering even when you have phantasms – they want a more active playstyle. I’m not saying playing phantasm is wrong, but the way clone-death was abused needed to be changed.

uhhh, phantasms are just as passive as clone death play.
if not more so.

I have a mesmer, i dont play clone death style because i am an offensive type player. that doesnt mean a defensive attrition based style should not exist within the class.

i have also played against it. It is annoying, it is supposed to be annoying. just like the tanky eles, the tanky guardians, the tanky thieves, necros etc.

just because i dont play it, doesnt mean it should not exist. Just because it is annoying to fight doesnt mean it should not exist.

Jedge.3619:

Ithilwen.1529:

I play clone death and it’s not passive at all.

example:

I shatter, knowing full well that the guard I’m targeting will pull an aoe to destroy the incoming clones.

example 2:

I’m up against an elementalist in fire attunement. I switch to scepter and pound them from afar. Fire field comes up. I switch to staff and run in. Chaos Storm, Phant, dodge and phase retreat out, gaining chaos armor and watching the ele kill my two clones and phant.

Example 3:

I get jumped by a thief. Chaos storm, phase retreat,phant, decoy. Run back to my clones. Thief pulls dagger storm to destroy the clones so I won’t shatter on them and bleeds themselves down in the process.

I could go on. The point is that the thing “grouch” complained about, simply dodging to kill clones, is the crudest form of clone death play.

In reality, clone death is a very good add to shatter if played well.

I love the idea of a baseline clone death penalty.. but that is far too much consideration to ask of anet

Wait what? The point of shatter is to shatter your clones to deal extra damage, not watch them die to do damage. Any spec can put on debilitating dissipation (which is random btw, no guaranteed bleed) and just wait for their clones to die. The point of a Mesmer’s mechanics is to shatter your clones – its a class mechanic. They want you actively deciding whether or not to interrupt, deal damage/condi damage/ or save yourself with distortion. That is an active playstyle. Which is why IP is being made baseline. Dodge-rolling with 3 clones up and spawning more clones just to get “conditions.” Btw, do you actually know which clone dies last to proc DD when you dodge or create a clone at 3, the answer is probably not. I’m extremely glad they’re removing this trait from the game. i’m sure you can come up with other trait lines in the new chaos tree to suit your playstyle.

no, one aspect of your clones is to shatter them.
there is a reason they look exactly like you.
they also supposed to be deceptive.

a tank/distraction mesmer actually wants his clones alive, and taking damage until the moment they die. Shattering all your distractions/meat shields at once, is only a good idea when the benefits outweigh the loss.

Now, i personally never really used the build, but to claim its pointless, or against the class design is foolish. Mesmer is not defined as being a explosion factory.

Mesmers are magical duelists who wield deception as a weapon. Using powerful illusions, clones, and phantasmal magic to confuse and distract their foes, mesmers make sure every fight is balanced in their favor and their opponents can’t believe their eyes.

deception as a weapon: nothing deceptive about blowing up every illusion you have
confuse and distract: yup taking damage for attacking the wrong guy is confusing and distracting
cant believe your eyes: yup once again decieving the enemy/making the wrong choices.

clone death is very much one part of the idea behind mesmer.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

phys.7689:

where can you see your status/infractions/expected flood control/ when it goes away

You can’t. They said they don’t want people knowing how many infractions they have and when the expiration dates are because they think people will use that information to get infractions and wait for it to wear off before getting another.

generally if you want punishment to be a deterrent, it has to be clear what exactly the effects are/rules are. Sure people will may stop being jerks until their punishment disappears, but isnt that the same thing?

if people dont understand consequences, they tend to ignore them, which defeats the purpose.

but thanks for the info anyhow.

Windsagio.1340:

Coming from someone who doesn’t care about the ‘meta’ except to occasionally get mad about people using the term ‘meta’ wrongly, this is what I see.

People sense things going away and they don’t like it. They don’t like the loss conceptually.

~~~

This kind of change is definitely a thing that can go too far, but this is what I’ve realized in the process:

The number of possible builds has gone down, but the number of distinctive builds has gone up

I don’t give a fig about how the meta-mongers limit it down, the number of builds within a class that are substantially different from each other instead of just kind of mushing along between one variation and the other has gone up substantially.

not true

most builds for most jobs i looked at, are versions of old builds (not surprising, most of the traits are old)
the major newness, is stats not being linked, so you can go power/crit in other lines. But that only required decoupling.

some other things are better due to new traits.
but new traits never required the system itself.

Im not gonna tell them not to do the change, that ship has sailed,
but i also have to be truthful
there are way less builds total
there are mostly the same amount of viable builds as before.

At this point, my goal is to see how they can fix some problems with the system as it stands. Its more important than before that every trait, and the traits its in line with/competing with be really well selected.

Everything is not perfect, its still a work in progress, and it will take as much work to balance things.
Its a waste of time to act like people are just making up their problems with the system. The effects are there. The goal is to minimize the losses, and make this system work as well as possible.

in order to do that, its best to look at the limitations, and point out where some things look off.

where can you see your status/infractions/expected flood control/ when it goes away

Arrow.4619:

Ok. You can’t take Berserk+Axe Mastery. So the tradeoff of that for 2 additional Minor traits (1 from Master and Grandmaster) and an additional Master and Grandmaster Trait is apparently so awful every Axe Warrior is automatically being screwed over? Take a look at those additional traits you can get and if you cannot figure out a way that those traits can make your characters either more powerful, more effective or more interesting to play then that’s a failure of imagination on your part.

http://dulfy.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/gw2-warrior-arms-specialization.jpg
http://dulfy.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/gw2-warrior-defense-specialization.jpg
http://dulfy.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/gw2-warrior-tactics-specialization.jpg
http://dulfy.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/gw2-warrior-discipline-specialization.jpg
http://dulfy.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/gw2-warrior-defense-specialization.jpg

uhh its not about tradeoff versus what used to be, its about what is going on now.
.
Essentially there is no reason to take the axe trait, its a slightly less powerful/versatile version of the same thing.

so basically the axe trait has no real value in competition with the burst trait.
so its a false choice.

Levetty.1279:

I’m really wondering why its clone death that is bothering people so much for being passive play and not turrets, minions, stealth, jaguar, spirits, running around randomly cleaving, weapon CD reduction traits, on crit traits, sigils, runes, ini regen boosting traits and signits.

Oh right because clone death can only be used by Mesmer.

probably because the main point of clones is
resource
make enemy pay for attacking wrong target.

taking out on death effects mean many times the enemy doesnt pay for picking wrong target and destroys your resource.

now if you are phantasm you dont use clones much anyhow
if you shatter you try to blow them up before people kill them
but if you are diversionary clones being the targets is what you are hoping to achieve, you want enemies to pay more for getting tricked

Miku Lawrence.6329:

Hey Rising,
Here’s a tl;dr of a changes requiered for mesmer in dungeons :

Dueling :

• Moved Blade training to Grandmaster
• Moved Dualist’s Discipline to Master
• Moved Master of Manipulation from Chaos Adept to Dueling Adept
• Moved Mistrust from Dueling Grandmaster to Chaos Adept

Chaos :

• Moved Mistrust from Dueling Grandmaster to Chaos Adept

Illusions :

• Persistence of Memory moved from Adept to Grandmaster + Increased recharges to 33% per shatter.
• Blinding Befuddlement moved from Grandmaster to Master
• Sum of All Fears moved from Master to Adept

i thought about the 33%, but its too powerful, you are basically canceling ALL phantasms recast if you shatter 3.
then its almost always best to shatter when full. You might even be able to cancel some animation lock time.

basically you need to get 1 phantasm back for shattering 3. then, depending on recast of your two fast ones, it may be worthwhile.

thats why i suggested
1 phant shatter = reduction
2 phant shatter = more reduction
3 phant shatter = summon phantasm on current target.

regardless as the functionality it has right now is too weak.

Artemis Thuras.8795:

I just read the description for axe mastery.

Gain ferocity for each axe you are wielding.

So dual axe would be +300 ferocity, or 20% critical damage.
Considering the 50% damage bonus to axe #5 in pvp, it will be better to take axe training in pvp. Simply due to buildup time of adrenaline and the damage on eviscerate.

dual axe gets fast adrenaline, they will get full adrenaline in 10 seconds.
this means
20% bonus to all damage
versus 20% bonus to axe CRIT damage if you have two axes.

so the question is does the 20% recharge on axes skills overule the damage lost from non crits, and weapon swaps.

id say, probably not.

edit: well i guess another factor is ramp up time. axe trait doesnt need much but ehhh still seeming kind of limited

Toeofdoom.6152:

Right, but remember you can still use sword autoattack while spamming charges, so the correct number for mantra of pain is:
327×3/2.75 = 356 dps.
So it’s higher than sword AA.

higher than sword AA alone yea, but that requires not doing anything for 2.75 seconds to maintain. no dodge for 2.75 out of every 4.75 seconds. no resource generation, no control.

Toeofdoom.6152:

This thread is irrelevant for pve as it stands, as no-one would take DE or Halting strike over just about anything, so I was assuming its a pvp thing.

I think in combat mantra recasts are very useful for a variety of reasons… They are easily powerful to make up for the cast time once they have a trait or two behind them – the trick in pvp is just to avoid hits while doing so. In pve it could hardly be easier and keeping mantra of pain on the bar is perfectly reasonable compared to the previous plan (Multiple mantras you never used). Last I checked traited mantra of pain outdamages sword autoattack and hits more targets.

mantra of pain has a 2.75 cast time in which you can do nothing.
dodge during cast resets it
it also has 1 second between casts
327×3/4.75= 202 dps

AA
202+202+404/1.5seconds = 293 per second (without having to stand still for 2.75 seconds)

the advantage of powerspike is being able to unload it while doing other things instantly. It has never been great for pure DPS.
so basically you can front load your dmg, then it goes down while you recharge. not being able to get your main resource back quickly makes the long cast times even more detrimental.

shatters is one of the few things you can do while casting, but it requires resource to be effective, preferably clones so as not to waste power.

Windsagio.1340:

phys.7689:

Windsagio.1340:

So they’re intentionally mutually exclusive. It’s an interesting point, but hardly a side effect.

it actually is a side effect.
problem is the mantra trait is strong, but not strong enough to stand on its own. And there is a limited number of places for it. Essentially it needs back up to work. But with the new system anywhere you place it, it clashes with some other build.

the build existed before, and it has never been OP.

DE should exist in opposition to phantasm build, but mantra should be able to work with either one.
see mantra you spend a lot of time casting, so you either need to be able to spike your resource to do anything, or set up a lot of things while you are casting.

as it is right now, they are basically weakening mantra build greatly.

ias for the get everything
it existed, it was not an OP top end build.
mantra has a high cost in cast times. you need something else to make it work.

And you get other things, not just evasion. Our whole discussion started on a weird point because you said ‘duelist’ and ‘3 mantras’ are mutually exclusive, when you meant 3 mantras and deceptive evasion are.

your question is are any viable playstyles killed, and i told you about some playstyles that dont work.

There are others in other jobs as well.

when i said duelist mantra, i mean duelist style fighting. IE reactionary, quick on your feat and quick to respond, which should be one of the main ways of playing with mantras, and always was before.

Toeofdoom.6152:

As a player who uses harmonious mantras in every build for years I’m absolutely okay with the DE overlap! It still allows 3 potential playstyles:

Phantasms + interrupts + mantra/healing. These overlap really easily now and can dish out substantially more damage than they used to. It doesn’t lose shatters completely now that IP is baseline.

Mantras + interrupts: The interrupts are so incredibly nasty that you don’t need big shatters or buffed phantasms to be effective.

Cooldown reduction shenanigans: Using greatsword, staff or pistol traits it seems likely you can pump out clones without DE – obviously nothing to base an entire shatter build on, but with IP as well you will be fine.

Honestly the fact is DE NEEDS to be a grandmaster for anything else to compete. If you still want it inbuilt or minor and not overwriting phantasms that’s okay too – but dropping to adept or master will be worse than the current plan.

in PVE interupts will always be 1 per 5 seconds and need skill.
and that is IF defiance allows interupts to count when they are blocked.

mantras basically needs a quick resource because of recasting. They arent powerful enough to make up for being able to do nothing for 2.75 seconds without a much faster resource generation. not to mention to take advantage of the damage buff, you need to be using it up constantly. (which means recasting eventually.

I get that they want to encourage phantasm mesmers to refresh when the time is right, but this trait really doesnt help much.

a maximum of 6% cast time reduction wont make up for losing 30% of your good phantasms.

how about
shatter one phantasm 4% reduction
shatter two phantasm 10% reduction
shatter three phantasm 4% reduction+ summon phantasmal rogue
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Phantasmal_Rogue

now if the time is right, they can get back up to full phantasms, fairly quickly.

or it can be a random phantasm.

there is no investment
you can only select 3 lines now.
placement is more importamt for mutual exclusiveness now, rather than power.

really they should get rid of the whole idea of master/adept/gm there is no difference between needing a specialization for for an adept or needing it for a gm now, its the same investment

The Primary.6371:

opiomorph.7983:

This is way too mandatory for nearly all Mesmer builds, and not making it baseline limits the variability of builds Mesmers will be able to make.

Almost all Mesmers will have to take this Spec just to get this Trait. It should really be baseline.

Ignoring the trolling from “phantasm mesmers”, turning deceptive evasion into a grandmaster clearly goes against all that the mesmer community has advised as to it’s placement.

This will hamper builds that rely upon it such kittenter specs. Since they will need to waste an extra two points to get the trait.

the point system is gone.

you just invest in a line and unlock the whole thing now.

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

This is a ludicrous change. For Warriors to get 50% uptime of retaliation with no boon duration as a minor trait, it’s just madness. It was already a great trait for PvP/WvW and I used it all the time, but now I get free Rousing Resillience to make me even more OP. This needs to be swapped with Cull the Weak or Armoured Attack at very least.

minor major or gm really doesnt matter any more. since each line is all or nothingin that .

is there something in the same line that you shouldnt be able to get at the same time as it?
are the other possibilities in that slot competitive?

thats really all that matters in the new system

Kichwas.7152:

phys.7689:

MeththeMadman.7420:

Wait… What’s going on? Specializations are tied to map completion?

you will need to do skill point challenges in order to unlock all traits.

About 60 of them. Out of the 260-something or so out there.

You can probably complete 60 of them in a single 2 hour session, with most of that time spent in loading screens between zones…

60 might sound like a lot, but its really not.

its way more than 2 hours, keep in mind those that havent got skill points, probably havent got waypoints, also skillpoints are hidden in fog now.

on a couple of my chars i decided i needed some skill points fast (before they had tons of scrolls)

it takes a noticeable bit of time to get them.
certainly more than 2 minutes per skill point on average.

i mean if you only target the quick ones, but i doubt most people know where they are.
AND you basically will probably need like 180 if you include elite specialization unlocks, so you mas well get the kittenes too.

Windsagio.1340:

So they’re intentionally mutually exclusive. It’s an interesting point, but hardly a side effect.

it actually is a side effect.
problem is the mantra trait is strong, but not strong enough to stand on its own. And there is a limited number of places for it. Essentially it needs back up to work. But with the new system anywhere you place it, it clashes with some other build.

the build existed before, and it has never been OP.

DE should exist in opposition to phantasm build, but mantra should be able to work with either one.
see mantra you spend a lot of time casting, so you either need to be able to spike your resource to do anything, or set up a lot of things while you are casting.

as it is right now, they are basically weakening mantra build greatly.

ias for the get everything
it existed, it was not an OP top end build.
mantra has a high cost in cast times. you need something else to make it work.

Windsagio.1340:

phys.7689:

Windsagio.1340:

Was deciding which off the many threads to put this in, this wone will do.

DIfferent builds aren’t diverse builds

Adding Bolt to the Heart and Vital striking and stone splinters didn’t change the way you played, they just increased damage (the limitations weren’t meaningful),

Taking all 3 symbol traits in the guardian Honor line, was meaningfully playstyle defining, and it required you downgrade your GM trait to master… So they made it so the ‘play defining trait’ is the grandmaster in the tree. Similarly in the same tree if you wanted to do shouts.

Almost all the ‘diversity’ people are complaining about is minor damage optimizations and nothing that speaks to the real play style.

In fact, that’s my challenge.

Present a play style that’s lost with this change NOT a specific build, but a way of playing.

I honestly can’t think of any.

mesmer cant really play dueling mantras any more because they are now mutually exclusive.
Deceptive evasion is a playstyle defining trait that gives you a quick resource and adaptability for shattering, and turning around the situation. Mantras are a side mechanic the reward preparation and reactionary play.
These are now mutually exclusive.

trickster mesmer with on death clone effects have been removed completely. This type of mesmer often relied on tricking people into attacking the wrong clone. Picking and killing the wrong mesmer resulted in various negative effects.

yeah, some real playstyle builds died.

then there is a number of optimized builds that gave you the things you may have wanted out of different lines. That really matched your playstyle. Like i had an power/crit/tools engineer, that had vigor/swiftness on weapon swap.

the build relied on being highly evasive for defense. Used the tool cool downs, with low recharge tools and static discharge. Bombs and a bit of critical.

there are builds that dont exist. Most of them are hybrids, or and some of them are from build defining traits that are now mutually exclusive.

This is where my question becomes a trick: They want us to bring up lost builds as feedback to modify the system and trees

About mantras and duellist, I don’t know mesmer builds super well, but I kind of doubt they’re truly mutually exclusive, it becomes a question of ‘how important are they to add?’

If you have to make a hard decision between 2 potential options, if both are viable and both are at the same level of significance, then that’s a good choice.

they are now mutually exclusive, they werent before.
you cant get 3 mantras and get clones on dodge anymore.

ASP.8093:

Like, okay, here are the trait combos that I think you’re likely to see most in Dueling right now:

Phantasmal Fury — Blade Training — (Harmonious Mantras?)
Your basic PvE phantasm build. HM might be good but it might be useless depending on the supporting skills you most want.
Underwhelming GM trait.

(Desperate Decoy?) — Blinding Dissipation — Deceptive Evasion
Your basic shatter stuff. The minor trait here is pretty much “Enh, why not?” I could see Phantasmal Fury in its place. Either one is basically a throw-in.
Underwhelming Adept choices.

Duelist’s Discipline — Blade Training — Harmonious Mantras
Duelist’s Discipline — Blade Training — Mistrust
Likely “phantrup” setups. Could use Evasive Mirror in place of Blade Training as well.
Reasonable overall.

What about a less phantasm-oriented interrupt build? Well, now you’re in trouble because of the DE/HM conflict. Maybe I’m overstating that, but, like, to be honest: I love playing builds like that, even if they’re not really meta.

~

In contrast, here are the trait combos that I see as most worth encouraging in Dueling:

Phantasmal Fury — Blade Training — Evasive Mirror
This feels like a pretty solid typical dungeon-damage setup. Being able to access reflects on Blurred Frenzy or dodging is pretty strong. (Harmonious Mantras might be the personal-DPS alternative, or the flow may not be worthwhile. Dunno. My guess is the former.)

Deceptive Evasion — Blinding Dissipation — Evasive Mirror
Deceptive Evasion — Blinding Dissipation — Mistrust
These are your most likely shatter specs. Option to choose Confusion or screw with ranged fighters. (If neither of those is to taste, you can get some extra value out of Mantra of Resolve. Not bad, either.)

Phantasmal Fury — Duelist’s Discipline — Harmonious Mantras
Phantasmal Fury — Duelist’s Discipline — Mistrust
Phantasmal Fury — Duelist’s Discipline — Evasive Mirror
Phantrupt with the option of taking more interrupts, extra condi damage, or screwing with the pistol-mesmer mirror-match by taking Evasive Mirror.

Deceptive Evasion — Blinding Dissipation — Harmonious Mantras
For somewhat more controlling/supporting build with shatters. (Taking Inspiration to get mantra healing, and either Chaos or Domination depending on whether you want to immobilize foes or rip their boons.)

i say move HM to power replacing the greatsword trait. at GM teir.
i think halting shouldnt be a GM trait.
greatsword/sword trait merge.
that GS trait is really underwelming as a GM anyhow.

Windsagio.1340:

Was deciding which off the many threads to put this in, this wone will do.

DIfferent builds aren’t diverse builds

Adding Bolt to the Heart and Vital striking and stone splinters didn’t change the way you played, they just increased damage (the limitations weren’t meaningful),

Taking all 3 symbol traits in the guardian Honor line, was meaningfully playstyle defining, and it required you downgrade your GM trait to master… So they made it so the ‘play defining trait’ is the grandmaster in the tree. Similarly in the same tree if you wanted to do shouts.

Almost all the ‘diversity’ people are complaining about is minor damage optimizations and nothing that speaks to the real play style.

In fact, that’s my challenge.

Present a play style that’s lost with this change NOT a specific build, but a way of playing.

I honestly can’t think of any.

mesmer cant really play dueling mantras any more because they are now mutually exclusive.
Deceptive evasion is a playstyle defining trait that gives you a quick resource and adaptability for shattering, and turning around the situation. Mantras are a side mechanic the reward preparation and reactionary play.
These are now mutually exclusive.

trickster mesmer with on death clone effects have been removed completely. This type of mesmer often relied on tricking people into attacking the wrong clone. Picking and killing the wrong mesmer resulted in various negative effects.

yeah, some real playstyle builds died.

then there is a number of optimized builds that gave you the things you may have wanted out of different lines. That really matched your playstyle. Like i had an power/crit/tools engineer, that had vigor/swiftness on weapon swap.

the build relied on being highly evasive for defense. Used the tool cool downs, with low recharge tools and static discharge. Bombs and a bit of critical.

there are builds that dont exist. Most of them are hybrids, or and some of them are from build defining traits that are now mutually exclusive.

Vayne.8563:

xarallei.4279:

This system just doesn’t feel alt friendly at all. Which is very surprising considering the direction that HoT has been taking with making things alt friendly (such as the way masteries will work). Anet, PLEASE take alts into consideration when you think about how you want this system to work. I do not want to be running around on every single character doing hero challenges over and over again for skills I already unlocked.

Not sure how it’s not alt friendly. Assuming you’re leveling your alts to 80 (and if you’re not going into higher level zones not sure why you need traits anyway), you’ll get most of the hero points you need just from that. You can fill in what you want by doing skill point challenges, now call hero point challenges.

Are you saying going and getting some skill points is a big deal.

And if you’re only PvPing it’s all unlocked anyway so in theory the only people for whom it wouldn’t be alt friendly are WvWer’s who don’t PvE at all.

a lot of people didnt level their chrs by map complete.
wvw
scrolls
eotm
crafting

while one skill challenge is easy, 65 is not so much.

Gibson.4036:

65 skill challenges is not a trivial number.

That’s 1/3rd of all skill challenges currently in game. That means running across 1/3 of the zones with a fully unlocked WvW character to get back to where they are now.

if you are opposed to having to do skill challenges per charachter, you should try to get the system changed, because in the long term, you will end up doing waaay more than 65 points per charachter

traits is 60ish point
5 skills is like 25-30 points
then spec unlock/or mechanic unlock.

so probably 90-120 per elite spec
and they currently plan to add more later on. (though they may not do it any time soon)

deSade.9437:

More fury? :o Ok, I’m in.
I too want a pet tiger that is a PS warrior so I don’t need any noob 100b spammer in party.
I want to see more bearbows with… omg, the new trait. Jeeeeeeeeeesus.
Right, trying really hard to get hyped.
Unrelated: did the guardian’s damage get buffed again, perchance? Why in hell? Owell, I’m not complainin’.

And yeah, nature magic has some depressing traits… The.. the GMs…. come on!!! It’s a big giant neon sign going “PHIW TRAITS HERE”
[But it’s more “supportive” mkay]

P.S. Do you think they’re gonna go full Deliv… erm, pvp on us and actually add, say, vitality (so a 4th stat) to zerk gear instead of just buffing the numbers of the 3 existing stats? I can see it coming, but I’m also a crazy paranoid.
P.P.S. Hey, zephyr’s speed is cool too.

fury give opening strike, means massive fury procs is insane.
guaranteed crits, vulnerabilities stacks and a trait with 25% damage on opening? i dunno sounds insane OP to me.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Maybe the number 465 isn’t right, it’s a number that I’ve seen several times, but that the number of hero points being finite is correct and so is the possible problems with a char getting more than the game allows.

465 may change, but it is the number that they said you would need to unlock CORE skills and traits

you will likely need the rest to unlock elite specializations.

So no matter what, you are going to be heading out there and hunting hero points.

As for the rest of the people
the only way they could grandfather charachters in is by changing the system itself, or automatically completing skill points for existing charachters.

but this gets messy.
what about the people who havent unlocked all their skills?
what about the people who have only unlocked 15 traits?

• they cant just give you unlocks because hero points is finite, and will be your resource for unlocking elite specializations/skills. You cant have more than you are supposed to, and you cant have unlocks without having spent the right amount of Hero points. It would basically give old charachters more hero points than they should ever be able to get

Iris Ng.9845:

frifox.5283:

phys.7689:

interupt heavy things dont impress me for pve, because monsters dont attack often/fast enough to be worthwhile

Currently, effects triggered on interrupt will still happen even if the interruption gets blocked with defiance (at least last time I tested they did). This means, using daze mantra and pistol5/sw4/focus4 can give easy 3s quickness every 5s! Also, interrupt = 3 stacks of vuln, daze = 5 stacks of vuln. While boss is stunned/not using skill you finish him off with Mental Torment and I’m expecting to start seeing insane burst shatters.

EDIT: 3xMW has 2.0 coefficient/entity. At full buffs, thats 12.5k each. With the new MT trait, thats 18.75k/each. With IP being baseline, thats 18.75k x 4, a 75k shatter… ?

Oh gosh, this is gonna get nerfed for sure. But quickness!!! I so desperately hope that they give Quickness instead of Super Speed for One with Air and ele would never have to complain about Bolt to the Heart(

And don’t forget sigil of paralyzation, giving you 10% more dmg with MW

pretty sure the quickness trait existed for awhile and no one really cared that much, ahh the key is they lowered the recast drastically.

as for the insane mindwrack, they said the boost amount will probably be going down.

Iris Ng.9845:

Sanderinoa.8065:

Mesmers have always been best at complaining about changes, maybe next to warrior, so I’m not gonna say anything about that :p some valid points were made, but its no major issue. I do have to adress to iris though, illusions don’t get affected by boons coming from the outside in terms of damage, so no, we aren’t gonna give 25 might to illusions to phantasms

Sandy,

According to the trait, whenever you summon illusion, you copy all your boons to nearby allies. I assume it’s kinda lackluster (for a GM) and misleading if a mesmer cannot copy his boons to the illusions. That’s where I think illusions are going to inherit boons from mesmer. It’s a new trait which probably doesn’t work with the current mechanics, as you have tested out. But who knows if they actually make it work in the future.

Pistol is so very nice to go with an interrupt-heavy build. I think mesmer looks more promising than it is currently.

i think you may have got the good use of it off, basically, most other boons are useful to your phantasm, quickness, protection,aegis, stability,regen etc.

Also, its basically like getting the signet use for free. it works for your teammates too, so that means you can give everyone around you aegis, might stacks, fury duration, protection duration stability, swiftness whatever.

so its probably pretty good, but its not about boosting the dps of your phantasms.

but like you say its possible this may change, or the trait itself may change. keep in mind its in the support section, so its focus is probably more about team support than phantasm dps.

Artanis.4963:

This is possible already.

In the options menu is an option to change how ground targeting works. You can have it cast the moment you activate the skill (fast), or cast when you release the skill button (fast w/ indicator), or cast when you press the skill again (default).

Change this to one of the “fast” options.

To activate your well or wall, click the skill.

The skill will immediately cast at your feet.

many people who want to be fast dont click on skills. the idea is moving your mouse to a specified position takes more time than just pressing a button.

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

I’m sorry you feel that way. At least, those reading will know that 540 is the number you consider ‘not many’. I can’t say I feel the same way. It is certainly more builds than I will ever use on a single character.

Of course, ymmv.

Good luck.

builds are not really just a random collection of traits.
some of them will not make sense to select together at all.
also, your 540 includes elite spec i think, which is HoT only.

the reality is there will be a lot fewer realistic choices.
HOWEVER they boosted the baseline power of most builds, and most builds take up other builds powers.

So less different builds, but most builds are more powerful/versatile.
likely hood is though, most people will be running around with very similar builds.

i agree, i suggest
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/mantra-shouldnt-compete-with-Deceptive/first#post5003649

for deceptive evasion/mantra conflict

short version:
i suggest merge GS/S buff traits move harmonious to domination, and create a new phantasm gets crit hit/and some other bonus on creation trait for dueling

Ok, i dont think mantra should compete with deceptive. I think the mantra build is meant to work with the adaptability and reactionary nature of DE.

so, mantras should move to the power line, they are more about power anyhow.

I think DE should compete with phantasm builds.
so, mantras should move to the power line, they are more about power anyhow.
so merge blade training and gs training, into a master trait
create GM for phantasms thats goal is to increase the initial burst of phantasms, probably centered around crits
phantasm 1st attack guaranteed crit and have 4 seconds of 5% more dmg(or 3 stacks might to caster so both condi/direct dps benefit) on creation.

the phantasm trait will further encourage cycling through traits, and be at odds with DE, which is more about reactionary play and pushing your shatter resources

If they dont want mantra to clash with powerblock,
they can move befuddlement where GS training was, and mantras where befuddlement was.

BTW befuddlement needs some type of boost/change.

perhaps there are other ways, but i dont see mantra/de being mutually exclusive playstyles.

Vague Memory.2817:

They said they did this to add build diversity (I think this was achieved by removing stats from the trait lines), but they also said this would help to balance things (despite giving thieves access to x2 consume plasma – what!!).

its not really about build diversity
its more about simplification of the trait system and unification of builds.

im guessing in the long run, diversity will have to come mostly from elite specs, hope they can pump them out faster than 1 per expansion.

rfdarko.4639:

By insane i didn’t mean unfair or too strong necessarily, just very exciting – its good stuff, relative to some of the other classes.

hmm i didnt really get that from engi, but i didnt get to watch the vid, the powerpoint looked too incomplete for me to call it.

Coldtart.4785:

phys.7689:

Coldtart.4785:

How did you watch as most of the currently useless traitlines got massively buffed into possible overpoweredness and conclude that build diversity has been reduced?

If your build got nerfed then your build was probably bad.

power is not build diversity. Those are two separate things.

I feel like overall many classes got buffed.

However its also true that there looks like there will very little diversity. for most of the jobs i play regularly there will be like 1 or 2 builds everyone will be using, because the other ones are mostly illogical.

power up, diversity down.

i think the mileage varies from class to class though

You just can’t get enough of being wrong, can you? To give an obvious example; right now there is exactly one correct trait point allocation for ele in pvp: 00266. If you aren’t using that you are simply using ele wrong. Under the new system it appears as though it would be reasonable to run a similar build using water and arcane but with a choice of fire, air or earth all being viable as the third spec. That’s 3 valid choices where before there was only 1.

i dont play ele, but others dont seem to agree that there was one good ele build, and say a few builds on ele maybe on the way out.
perhaps its a pvp perscpective thing

xarallei.4279:

I don’t mind the new system so far. It seems interesting enough. However, they REALLY need to grandfather all current 80s who have everything unlocked already. It’s just not acceptable for us to lose abilities we already earned and have to grind all over for them. I don’t have world completion on most of my alts so many of them do not have all those random skill point challenges done. The last thing I want is to have to run around on a ton of alts doing silly hero point challenges for unlocking stuff I already earned before.

you will be doing it for elite spec anyhow.
they said 60 challenges will get you enough to unlock everything. that means youll probably need like 140-180 to unlock the new spec.

Iris Ng.9845:

A lot of QoL things of mesmer make themselves to baseline.

Glamour all had their recharge rate reduced as a baseline. Traits that are made baseline: Illusionary Persona, Illusionary Elasticity, Protective Mantras (gain extra armor when you cast a mantra), Phantasmal damage boost traits,Manipulation range.

http://i.imgur.com/IVzYWca.jpg

Illusionary Inspiration : transfer your 25 stacks of Might and long lasting fury onto Illusion. Kinda crazy.

45 second cooldown, useless? well.. not useless. but not that crazy

spoj.9672:

Well considering most of the stuff they build for in PvE is becoming baseline. And then theres the huge amounts of extra reflects. Confusion buffs. PU buff. Too many things to count. I was thinking “What!?” multiple times in every line while watching the stream.

Let me ask the opposite. What mesmer changes were nerfs or ruined current builds?

PU is a buff to stealth duration, not really to the skill, which becomes more random. before it was defense oriented, now its unpredictable.
a lot of the baseline stuff was easy to get before, or somewhere you probably wanted to be in anyway.

mantra build is kinda dead now that it clashes with deceptive evasion,
interupt heavy things dont impress me for pve, because monsters dont attack often/fast enough to be worthwhile

what is the confusion buff?
looks like it is now weaker than a stack of bleed? i m assuming it has a low base tick now, and a portion on skill use based on the tool tips. but the total is lower than 1 bleed

spoj.9672:

Mesmer didnt get screwed. Id say mesmer got some of the best changes.

Nah mesmers stuff isnt really that good imo. what changes do you say are great?

Kezia.7836:

Yes, and they said in the stream today that they were working on having them drop, about the same rate as the tomes/scrolls. They might be named differently, but idea and where to get them will be same.

they wont be used for hero points.

they will be droping the type of things you use for the forge.

Coldtart.4785:

How did you watch as most of the currently useless traitlines got massively buffed into possible overpoweredness and conclude that build diversity has been reduced?

If your build got nerfed then your build was probably bad.

power is not build diversity. Those are two separate things.

I feel like overall many classes got buffed.

However its also true that there looks like there will very little diversity. for most of the jobs i play regularly there will be like 1 or 2 builds everyone will be using, because the other ones are mostly illogical.

power up, diversity down.

i think the mileage varies from class to class though

Thaddeus.4891:

phys.7689:

except, before i could have just jumped in for cantrip reduction and got out of the line.

but as you say, no increase in viability here.
now in the old system, them buffing or changing some traits could have created more options. but since the options are so limited, nothing really changes, except you must fully commit to water now for cantrip buffs.
There can never be more options for this trait line. it basically has one dps option, one healing option and one utility option.

I agree about the fact that being limited to 3 lines suck, but you were talking about the 9vs13 choice of trait. That particular change I found wonderful. The 3 lines, that’s another story.

But even that. The number of build using 4 or 5 trait lines is really rare. It exist and it suck that you can’t do that anymore, but that’s not a huge decrease in build diversity. It doesn’t change the fact that I think it’s a mistake, but the new system overall will provide more build diversity, it’s not a perfect system and I hope they will change it a little bit, but it will still be an improvement compare to the current system in my opinion.

the other difference if you dont desire a trait, you only have two options.

Kal Spiro.9745:

Q: Will the fall damage trait be removed and implemented into each class as a basic class feature?

most logical guess, fall damage will be tied to some core mastery. The special effects other than reduction will probably disapear