Guild Wars 2

Belorn.2659:

To paraphrase psizone comment with minute changes:

I’m here to complain about one skill that does something no other class can do and frankly, it shouldn’t be able to do. I have no problem with portal skill making the mesmer move around the map, it’s the “getting inside keeps” part that I believe is broken. There are other issues with other classes, and other people can set up posts to complain about them, they’re not what this post is about.

Pretty much, the issue is getting inside whilst downed. Mesmers need to be alive to use portals.

Dasenthal.6520:

Wait… Is there any feasible reason why a warrior can’t do exactly what the ele can? If there’s people inside they’re effectively the same. (We’ve already discussed why the time isn’t an issue regarding thieves)

There’s a delay of 5 or so seconds before a warrior can use Vengeance and once the skill ends, the warrior is fully dead so either he’s in the tower alone or someone has to res him from a fully downed state (takes longer than a downed res)

Can someone confirm if warriors can still enter towers in Vengeance? I witnessed one last night and he couldn’t get inside his keep (he might have just gotten unlucky)

Bubi.7942:

I guess you are serious about this cause caps and bold.

Here is my oppinion about the problem:

It’s not a problem.

I used caps and bold because people seemed to argue saying that I thought the ability itself was broken and needed removed rather than the one issue with the ability. They just need to block access to the tower portals when downed, you wouldn’t notice any other difference other than in that one instance.

I disagree that it’s not a problem, but to each his own.

mango.9267:

What? No, that’s a terrible idea. Then they could still target you, attack you, and see exactly when you’re behind them. Might as well not stealth if that were the case.

They’d have to make stealthed thieves untargetable, of course. Besides, you can attack stealthed thieves already. I was just saying it was an interesting idea, not that it’d definitely work.

McWolfy.5924:

stealth shoud have some minimal visible effect like this

http://allthisrunningaround.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/predator_camouflage.jpg

and remove revail from game

That’d be interesting, kind of like how it looks like if you look at a stealthed party member? (you should try fighting an enemy thief whilst they’re in your party, it’s exactly like what you’re suggesting)

That would probably be alright, no red name and still “cloaked” enough to remain hidden if you wanted to yet still allow eagle eyed opponents to track you.

LordByron.8369:

Cool nobody else can vapour form?
What about portal?
What about invulnerabilities?

Its better to be able to defend a tower from FEW opponents BEFORE they built a siege (any other situation ele is not a threat) or being able to just stand under enemy fire for long, disengage at will, port a zerg into a tower and so on?

So you want to nerf the only feat of a profession better than Others because they are better in an extremely situational case?

Fair give me 20.000 HP and we have a deal…stealth would go also.

Why would you even need 20k hp?! Eles with the right gear and traits are tanky enough as it is, they can outheal and clear more conditions than any other class.

This conversation has gone from “I don’t think they should be allowed to go inside a tower and get back up if they’re downed” to “omg don’t nerf that, we need it because thieves can stealth and warriors can swing a sword and also heal passively”

The problem isn’t that they can do something better than others, it’s that they can do it. Period.

How would you react if every class when downed could just get back up, go inside a tower and then stand back up? How about if a mesmer could do it? A thief? Wouldn’t be nice, would it? Why should an ele, with access to some of the highest aoe damage in the game be allowed to?

You’re making this sound like I’m out to nerf elementalists to the ground, but I personally play a glasscannon staff ele in WvW and I think it’s beyond overpowered, it’s borderline cheating.

Again, I state, THE PROBLEM ISN’T THAT ELEMENTALISTS CAN GO INTO VAPOR FORM, IT’S THAT THEY CAN USE IT TO GO INSIDE TOWERS AND KEEPS AND SURVIVE FROM A DOWNED STATE.

Someone suggested a while back to just swap the borderlands with the EoTM map every now and then.

It would play differently to how EoTM plays right now as servers would attack and defend as they do in normal WvW but with the nice scenery of the newer map.

Keeps WvW fresh and requires next to no effort to implement.

Nokaru.7831:

psizone.8437:

Nokaru.7831:

If by “nerf” you mean “fix” then yes.

A fix can be a nerf if it was a widely used “bug”.

Name one thing that is immune to your damage from Cloak and Dagger but still grants you Stealth.

You don’t read well do you? I have stated above many times that I agree that it shouldn’t have granted stealth in the first place, I’m annoyed that they changed it without warning when I personally needed it to help me recap keeps in an unfair matchup where capping normally is extremely difficult.

But since you asked, I believe supply depot still grants stealth if you cnd off of it. (haven’t confirmed since last patch)

LordByron.8369:

as if such things as glasscannon ele existed in gw2 WWW.

If you talk about risk, its time to speak about stealth.
Its time to speak about HP and ARMOR difference.
And about healing signet
Traits and mobility comes after.
And then Cooldowns.

You can t come here to say… ele has ONE skill better than mine (NB has counterplay, you just refuse to accept it)…… NERF it.
You can get to WWW and just count the number of elementalist you see opposed to thieves, warriors and guardians to have an idea on current WWW balance.

Glasscannon elementalists are in WvW, they make perfect tower/keep defenders.

I’m here to complain about one skill that does something no other class can do and frankly, it shouldn’t be able to do. I have no problem with the skill making the elementalist immune to damage and allow them to move, it’s the “getting inside towers” part that I believe is broken. There are other issues with other classes, and other people can set up posts to complain about them, they’re not what this post was about.

“Oh, if you use this class with this specific ability you can counter that” is not a good response for a skill that can stop an elementalist from dying if they stay outside a tower.

Nokaru.7831:

You can immobilize Vapor Form.

You can’t, if you use a long duration immobilise on the elementalist BEFORE he uses vapor form then the condition sticks, but you can’t attack them whilst in the form.

Nokaru.7831:

If by “nerf” you mean “fix” then yes.

A fix can be a nerf if it was a widely used “bug”.

My server is currently almost 200k points behind the first place server in our matchup, yeah… I feel something alright.

Lunacy Solacio.6514:

I don’t use the 50% movement trait on my d/d thief, because I would have to give up far too much to do so. I see it as more useful for the actual trolly ones, or better used by those acting as scouts. I’m not sure how many thieves use it, though, but yeah a good number do seem to with how fast some move. I do advise people that think thieves are just ‘trolls’ or completely ‘op’ to actually play the class and try the different builds (which most refuse to do because it’s ‘cheese’… if they did, they could fight thieves better, and would learn thieves are generally very squishy if they want to do any real damage).

Even having acquired a lot of wxp on thief in wvw, I was among those saying how much the stealth on walls needed fixed, and I was very happy to find out you couldn’t cloak off walls anymore.

I’m not against the removal of stealth from walls, I just wish they didn’t remove it without telling us just before a matchup where the only way to guarantee capping a keep is to stay inside after the enemy caps. I was a bit bitter when I posted this thread as capping some things in our own borderland is almost impossible right now.

Agreed on the point with thieves being squishy, I made 2 to learn how to counter them in combat and once you learn how they play, they’re the easiest class to kill (if they stay to fight) but they are also one of the strongest classes to play with little risk if you use the right builds. 50% movement speed trait is amazing for a condi-stealth thief hiding inside keeps.

Tiffany.8576:

You’re not trying hard enough. I’ve busted bigger zergs with fewer people.

Joking aside, it’s probably not too fun for the “winners” either. I’d hate to be anywhere near that “match” right now. Meh.

They seem to be enjoying spamming laughter emotes after portal bombing 3 people with a zerg of 30… You get all sorts of people online I guess! =/

Seera.5916:

So I switched Mist Form and Vapor form. Sue me.

I have to give up an offensive skill for Mist Form.

So what do you propose to give to the Ele to help it out with its situation. We have the lowest HP pool and we use the least protective armor.

Warriors on the other hand, have the highest HP pool, have access to the best protective armor, and have wonderful regen capabilities. Rangers pets can heal them while they continue to try to rally.

We have our escapes, warriors have their regen to keep them out of downed, rangers have their pets. When you can convince the majority of the warriors to give up their regen and the rangers to give up their pet heals, then come talk to use elementalists about giving up our escapes.

I didn’t call you out on the wrong skill name, but the time it takes to use it…
Neither the ranger or the warrior can just up and leave the situation by going inside a tower whilst downed and then get back up again. The problem isn’t that the elementalist can move when downed, it’s that they can go inside towers or keeps using it.

You want to know how you should avoid getting stomped outside a tower? Don’t be outside a tower on a glasscannon elementalist. If you go outside to fight enemies and are downed, you should be dead(able to be stomped), you shouldn’t be able to float back inside the tower again. You could float to allies, or around a corner, but not inside a tower with no risk involved.

Couldn’t agree more, tried to take that keep yesterday and our catas were disabled over and over until they killed them, then a hammer warrior killed me with a 20k+ hit from a golem. The joys.

rhapsody.3615:

And if you’re stupid enough to fight an ele at their tower gate, then you deserved to lose.

Little aggressive. Sometimes you can’t avoid fighting in front of a tower. Also, not everyone fights in groups and with 8 classes, there’s no guarantee that someone will have immobilise at that time.

Seera.5916:

We have to give up an offensive skill for vapor form. It takes time for most form to be ready when we are downed. Learn to kill / control faster when pulling elementalists.

What are you talking about? Vapor form is ready to use almost immediately after being downed. It’s not a learn to play issue if certain classes can’t counter it.

The offensive skills of every other class is a “block one stomp” attack, whereas mist form blocks all attacks for 3 seconds… and you can move… and you can go into a tower if it’s close… and then you can get back up.

MithranArkanere.8957:

psizone.8437:

[…]
That’s the issue, no other classes have a chance to go back into the tower. If you pull an ele off the walls and down him, you shouldn’t have to watch as he floats back inside again and gets back up.

If you don’t want that to happen, use immobilize right after or before they go down so it takes while they are not invulnerable.

Not every class has easy access to immobilise.

Dasenthal.6520:

So because we have 1 thing we can do that others can’t we should have taken away? That’s like complaining about a thief (who for some reason decided the wall is where he belongs) getting pulled off and stealthing before he even hits the ground and running back in. Except we’re dead! (Basically at least)

If that one thing includes being able to evade death entirely from a downed state (unless by some miracle someone hits them with a long duration immobilise or a guardian is around to block the portal with a line of warding) then yes. Also, if the thief lives, he can stealth. We’re talking about being able to run in after being downed, if the thief is downed outside, he won’t get in.

Dasenthal.6520:

But… A “smart” ele should never get off the wall willingly.
Seriously if you down an ele outside the tower chances are you ripped him off the wall, vapor just gives us the chance to get back in. It’s up to you to get us off the wall, downed, and dead.

That’s the issue, no other classes have a chance to go back into the tower. If you pull an ele off the walls and down him, you shouldn’t have to watch as he floats back inside again and gets back up.

sparc.3649:

This is going to break WvW…

Yup

[quote=4414634;Xillllix.3485:
It’s like the thief, learn to play one and you’ll realize they are not OP.

Also learn to counter it:
immobilize, walls, chills, all of those work against it; it has already been nerfed.[/quote]

Thieves are one of the strongest classes in the game, bordering on OP with certain builds (I have 2 thieves) and elementalists can be insanely defensive if they trait for it, the healing, condi-removal and dodges (with high vigor uptime) can make eles very difficult to kill. (also, I have an elementalist, so I’m not saying all of this from an enemy standpoint)

Like any class, if you spec for pure damage and no defense, you’ll die at some point – but you shouldn’t be able to spec purely for damage knowing you can just float away into a tower if you’re downed beside it.

Also, like I said earlier, if they get into the form, only guardians can stop them, leaving the other classes with a potential movable AC inside a tower.

Bubi.7942:

Looking foward to Blacktide and you guys at FoW, I think that’s gonna be the highlight matchup for us.

Regards from WSR.

Ditto, will be a great matchup!

Also, watch out when zergbusting Dzag, when their zerg gets wiped they call a blob >.>

Offair.2563:

Also why can thieves stealth eachother when there are multiple of them. Put a cooldown on that as well if you want to have a cooldown on reveal like Sic Em.

See:

psizone.8437:

And yes, I also think thieves shouldn’t be able to spam ‘shadows refuge’ or any other stealth spam if there are multiple thieves, placing a cap on that would be smart, also.

Johje Holan.4607:

Thieves whining about their nerfs when they’re still out there en masse in WvW trolling as bad as ever.

The past few days in my matchup I’ve seen many more bearbows and stunwarriors with the bugged golem than thieves. Not that I don’t agree that thieves will always be there trolling en masse, just that they’re not as common whilst other classes have a one hit kill button.

Xiem.4719:

Also, sorry for my english, hopefully you guys can understand me =)!

Loud and clear! It’s a shame, Bt used to have decent numbers until about 2 months ago. Not nice seeing servers fall like that.

I agree that the old achievements were nice. Even if PvE players only came in to do the achievements, it bolstered low population servers a bit.

Theftwind.8976:

Well the smart thief would avoid a high concentration of Rangers or Engies. You want to be able to sneak in an enemy keep and stay there indefinitely without being discovered like you “used to be able to do”? As well if Rangers and Engies cannot spam reveal if there are more then one as is your wish then should the same be done for thieves, when there is more then one, so they cannot spam stealth?

Even smart thieves can’t evade a 40 man search party forever – the reveal spam just makes it harder to do so.

And yes, I also think thieves shouldn’t be able to spam ‘shadows refuge’ or any other stealth spam if there are multiple thieves, placing a cap on that would be smart, also.

They should at least prevent people from using it if they outnumber their enemy.

We couldn’t sneak-recap our keep last night because 2 enemies kept disabling our catas whilst their zerg was dominating the rest of the map.

Baldrick.8967:

This is a bit like asking ‘why are guardians allowed to tag everything with one hit of a staff in an arc in front of them and not die from retal’.

Playing a staff ele in wvw isn’t easy, cut them some slack.

I have a staff ele that I play in WvW, too. I know it can be hard at times, but it’s really not that bad! They have their strengths and weaknesses like any other class.

LordByron.8369:

psizone.8437:

Smart eles don’t stray far from the portal though and immobilize only works if you hit them with it before they go into vapor form

wall skills like guardians works on vapour form.
Vapour form is not istant cast also.

Thief isn’t much of an issue, their teleport works similarly to the mesmers downed ability and you have more than enough time after they move to stomp them before they use their invisibility – usually.

No you have not.
In a balanced fight you can t lose 10-15 second to stomp a thief.
And they can be ressed faster unless you keep attacking.

baically most thieves are best to be killed than stomped in most situations.

I point out the guardian thing in an above post.

I feel like if you’re in a fight that you can’t afford the 5 seconds (not 10-15) to stomp a thief then you should just focus on attacking other enemies or keep attacking the downed thief as you say.

Pinkamena Diane Pie.8054:

Might I suggest you purchase some gems and transfer to a higher tier? :P

Yeah, WvW is messed up and there is nothing we can do about it.
Everything about it says having greater numbers and more coverage is the way to go.
Only way to change that is if dev change it, but since April all we’ve got is Golem mastery and anti-siege grenade.

So yeah, told hold your breath for anet to change things in WvW anytime this decade!

I feel like I’ve spent more than enough gems on alts and skins as it is!

I don’t feel like me paying to contribute to a problem I’m complaining about is the right thing to do.

You’re right in saying it’s the only solution, it’s just unfortunate that that’s the case.

Chunky Milk.2130:

agam.8075:

And your issue with it is?..

WvW shouldn’t be a place for pve achievement hunters.

I don’t see it as Achievement hunting, more so shows how little ANet cares about Rewarding WvWers

This. I play WvW 95% of the time I’m in game and I’d like to unlock some skins, titles and other goodies from the achievement system by playing the gamemode I enjoy, too.

Filovirus.6258:

At least try to do like Vabbi and defend/recap your things and go after the leader’s stuff when they are occuped focusing number 2, it’ll make the mu’s more enjoyable for everyone, your players first.

We haven’t had a chance to leave our borderland this week yet, attacking the first place server results in our 4 man group being zerged hard and the second place server is focusing on our borderland instead of defending their own or attacking the first place server.

Problem is, Dzag has more than enough players to keep us and BT down on every map at the same time.

Just wanted to make it clear that we aren’t targetting BT, we’re too busy trying to keep our borderland, if only one tower!

Jeknar.6184:

The reveal abilites do have a cooldown…

If you have multiple engineers and rangers hitting a thief with goggles and sic em, they can keep him revealed for a prolonged period of time. (I meant a cooldown on the debuff, as in “cannot be revealed by enemies for 20 seconds” not a cooldown on the individual abilities)

Jeff.5139:

IMHO Anet’s stand is perma stealth is here and its here to stay so i’d suggest a large increase in the duration of the reveal debuff. If the thief is really good he can overcome anything to make his stealth build work but by increasing the duration you raise the risks if or when the thief makes mistakes.

Not so, they just removed one of the more common ways a thief gains stealth. You can no longer use dagger 5 to gain stealth off of walls and gates. It’s taken a while, but they did finally remove one instance of permastealth.

Vavume.8065:

Reported for spamming create topic button.

Try to stay on topic. As far as I’m aware, there is no rule against creating multiple topics if they’re all relevant and different.

Even if I created them out of frustration and to vent my sarcasm.

Tom.8029:

By the way, Mist Form is a Cantrip utility skill. You mean Vapor Form. That’s the down state skill.

Yup, was tired when I posted this. You’re correct!

eyestrain.3056:

Lure eles far enough from the portal that they can’t slip through in down state, or have immobilize ready. It’s not a huge problem that you miss out on one bag.

Smart eles don’t stray far from the portal though and immobilize only works if you hit them with it before they go into vapor form as they’re immune to any damage in that form. As far as I’m aware, only skills such as guardians ‘line of warding’ can stop them entering the portal.

Also, the lootbag isn’t the issue. Having a potential zerker staff ele inside a tower is – they can ruin your day in there.

LordByron.8369:

A thief can prevent 2 stomps something no other profession can do.
Possibly the best downed state.

Thief isn’t much of an issue, their teleport works similarly to the mesmers downed ability and you have more than enough time after they move to stomp them before they use their invisibility – usually.

Why are they still allowed to enter towers and keeps portals when downed?

You’re breaking (fixing) everything else, why not this?

Running out of things to spam-complain about.
Wasted my time a lot tonight due to being stupidly outnumbered so if you have to delete/lock/forumban for these, I hope it wastes a tiny bit of someone elses time to do so.

I get not spreading a bad image of the game on here.. I mean… letting others know how to do the exploits…

But at least give us the option of reporting them in game for it rather than making us use a field it shouldn’t be under.

I know you needed to fix the “stealth off of walls” thing, but right before matching us against a server that blobs us to death? Really? Just let me sneak into hills and not be found. Gimme a break on that front..

Also, why the heck can engies and rangers just spam reveal if there are multiple of them?! Place a cooldown, kitten – stealth was broken, but don’t kill it entirely.

(No ranger hate, I main a ranger [no bearbow] )

Add another thing to the joy that is patching things right before a failure of a tournament. Yay.

Hey let’s see what great things I get for defending my borderland, fighting off masses of enemies, killing foes.

Oh, a title… and you just have to cap 2 camps a week to do the weeks worth of achievements… oh…

Oh…

…guys?

Oh yeah, everyone on my server gives up after an hour of being zerged by numbers 4 times our size.

Lovely. Gotta love tournaments… yay

“Let’s go retake our tower out there. Great work guys, now get the lord quic-. Oh, there’s 60 people zerging us from behind again. Greeeeeeat”

Yup. Fun.

Yup, you totally fixed that one in the last patch. Still does over 20k damage in 3 seconds. Great effort. LOVING this tournament guys…reaaaaally.

Yeah, great idea. Now stacked servers can stop underpopulated ones from retaking their keeps without any effort.

Great job guys…. really…

Filovirus.6258:

The only server your lvl is Bt.

Vabbi/WSR/UW are FAR weaker. Facing them you are doing to them what is being done to you this week.

Agreed, except I’d place WSR in with us and BT, they have decent numbers when they try. (last time I saw them anyway)

But with the mood in WvW at the moment, I wouldn’t be surprised if not many people turn up for next weeks matchup at all.

Filovirus.6258:

psizone.8437:

Prime time. Weekend. Stupidly outnumbered.

GG Anet.

Don’t tell me you really expected to have a shot at winning more than 2 MU this Season ??

You KNOW the only MUs you can win are against Vabbi/WSR/UW and maybe Bt depending on how it works.

The rest you’ll get stomped into the ground, and you know it it’s MUs you already had (minus the uber kittene where you’ll face 2 of the 19-22 servers at the same time if it happens).

You get destroyed by RoS for months now, and all the other servers are stronger than RoS.
Same with MS who rolfstomped you without really trying. Add to that that German servers are known for mustering superior numbers during Seasons, with a good chunk of part time/milicia players, and you’re doomed, but it’s nothing new.

And it’s nothing to do with the Season, it’s an overall problem of population in WvW.

Exactly my point, I saw this coming and wanted to show my frustration here. They should stop making these darn tournaments until they fix the population issues.

Assuming we don’t face the same server twice, we’ll had a good fight with Vabbi and Underworld then have a week with WSR and a server that’ll run us both into the ground then another week with 2 servers that won’t even realise it’s a 3 way fight.

Offair.2563:

Maybe they gained loads of bandwagoners to win the bronze league?

Nah, they and the servers around them have always been stupidly superior in numbers to us. The population difference we’ve been stuck with has been brutal.

Maybe one of you devs would like to volunteer to come stay with us for this week? See an extreme of how unfair your matchup system is.

Don’t go for it next week, we’re against servers that are of our level for the first time in months.

Prime time. Weekend. Stupidly outnumbered.

GG Anet.

How about a system similar to the frost area of EOTM for the borderlands?

If you invade an enemy borderland and outnumber the enemy you’re hit with a 50% movement debuff called “Intimidated” or “Laziness” that can only be removed by holding all 5 ruins. Outnumbered defenders could fight the small groups holding the ruins and keep the debuff active to slow down and hinder large forces allowing easier defense. Would also let those nice cannons at the ruins actually get used.

Could be a nice use for the ruins and a fitting change for the now mostly useless “Outnumbered” buff.

Kraszim.6249:

psizone.8437:

I wouldn’t mind losing so much if it meant fights didn’t consist of being steamrolled by a zerg 3 times the size of your group.

But since we put rewards in, you will have a motivation to log in. If you outsmart and outmanoeuvre them you will get your chest of epic loot and they will get nothing (good day sir). This is a very anti zerg mechanic as zerg is like a finger of god. It destroys anything it points at but can only point at one thing at a time.

I didn’t mean to come off as brash, for a while now we’ve been matched with a server that can have 2 or more zergs on a map that outnumber even our biggest zerg and we’ve been struggling to keep any of our positions on any map – it’s left me a bit bitter as of late.

I just meant that for me (and possible many others) most of the fun of WvW comes from the fights and social aspect of the game mode rather than the rewards. I didn’t mean to say your idea was bad.

Kraszim.6249:

Then suddenly all servers have a fighting chance. Even server 3, with some night capping and ninja borderlanding can get 6% of points and win a matchup. This would allow for more opponent variety and way more interesting gameplay as your server is never destined to lose. Because of that we could even implement WvW weekly rewards!

The only flaw with this idea is that whilst servers will have a chance of winning, it wouldn’t stop larger servers from dominating in fights.

I wouldn’t mind losing so much if it meant fights didn’t consist of being steamrolled by a zerg 3 times the size of your group.

I’ll copy/paste what I wrote in a thread I posted a few days ago. As Pink says, it most likely wont amount to anything and not everyone will agree with changes that people post, but highlighting the need for change and at least trying to think of ways to fix things never hurts.

After the tournament all servers are empty, everyone chooses a server just for WvW (since they don’t matter in pve anymore) and the servers are all soft-capped so you can’t join a server that has more than 50 active players more than the others.
Not logging into WvW for a fortnight removes you from the server (reducing the servers population). If you go back to WvW, you have to reapply for that server or choose another.
That would give players the chance for free transfers or you can pay gems to change server immediately just as they have it set now.
With this system, since no server would have should have no more than 50 more active players than any other server, it would allow tournaments and matchups to include all servers and not have to be split into tiers, allowing more matchup variety and make fights more evenly spread instead of people being rewarded for stacking.

I also posted a clarification for the cap: The servers would be capped at, say, 500 players with a +/- of 50 players. Once a server has 50 players more than the least populated server, it cannot allow other players in, once the other servers catch up, people would be allowed to transfer to that server again.
The cap isn’t for players online at the time, but rather overall players allowed on a server for that given week, it would be up to the players themselves to decide when to log in etc.
So players that stop playing are booted from the server, lowering the population and if it gets to 50 players less than the other servers, then those servers cannot increase their numbers until that server makes up it’s playerbase.
This fix is for an overall population fix, not a fix for nightcapping.