Guild Wars 2

Feanor.2358:

vesica tempestas.1563:

Min Maxing dps does not matter in spvp,
it does not matter in wvw,
it does not matter in Dungeons
it does not matter in Fractals
it does not matter in open world pve,
it does not matter in open world bosses.

Wrong. It matters everywhere. That’s why there are builds in spvp and wvw as there are in pve. Optimized builds in dungeons, fractals and open pve mean smoother and faster clears with less chances for failure. The only point where you’re right are the world bosses… and there you get carried by people with optimized builds. You don’t need to minmax in order to succeed. By the way this applies to raiding as well. But you benefit from doing so, regardless of the game mode and the specific activity.

you disagree then go on to say ‘You don’t need to minmax in order to succeed.’ which is exactly my point.

Mell.4873:

Myrdreth.6829:

…could someone please explain to me what “meta” means? I don’t understand a thing you all say but I am curious and want to understand what’s going on

Meta is the current best way to play the game. There are builds for your class that are Meta and although there room to change them a little you cant go away from core concept.
For example using guardians and running the trait that increases damage with retaliation.
You could almost say most classes have a gimmick and revolving you build around it is key.

i wouldn’t say ‘best’ , that would be the play style that the player finds most fun and satisfying. ’Optimal is good.

grumpychuhua.8417:

mbhalo.1547:

The best solution would probably be auto group finder that considers a plethora of factors when groups up players together, so that new players with mediocre gear aren’t stuck with hardcore players that want to speedrun.

That might solve some of the problem ,but I’ve seen players in top gear still be kitten bad at the game and their classes

agreed, the issue isn’t gear or skill, its attitude. The great player would try to teach and will persevere as a matter of principle, the bad player will emo, blame and try to boot. you can’t track that.

Min Maxing dps does not matter in spvp,
it does not matter in wvw,
it does not matter in Dungeons
it does not matter in Fractals
it does not matter in open world pve,
it does not matter in open world bosses.

33k ‘rotations’ matters in 1 game format – raiding . A format played by a fraction of the game population. Take your 33k raiding setup and try spvp, you will get melted, damage per second is not the be all and end all of skilled play.

RedDeadFred.1256:

ImLegion.4018:

RedDeadFred.1256:

Why would they do a new WvW map after the last time? Besides, they just did a major update.

PvP. Eh, I don’t care. Haven’t cared about it in a long time. Still, you get new Elite specs to play with.

Dungeons. Are you doing a meme?

Fractals. They literally just released one and will probably continue making new ones throughout LS4.

Maps and new Elite Specs. This is what I care about. They’ve given us one more map tham HoT and this expac costs less. As far as I’m concerned, these already make it worth it. Apparently, they’re the largest maps yet, so I’m very happy about this. GW2 for me is about exploring new places and participating in cool open world events. I do fractals, but it’s not at the top of my totem poll for gameplay enjoyment. This expansion is pretty much tailored to my gameplay preferences.

Can’t wait and I’m preordering as soon as I get home.

So because you don’t care, it is not important. Isn’t that a bit selfish? I don’t do dungeons and fractals, but I think it is still weird it’s not with it… Lets not forget the big WvW update is nothing special and just based on rewards and a backpack wooooooohoooooooo

It’s not selfish to want a game to cater to your interests if you intend on spending money on it. The biggest criticisms I and MANY others had about HoT was that it only had 4 maps whilst reinventing amd creating a bunch of systems. This expac seems a lot more content rich for people like me. And I hate to come off this way, but I suspect that people like me are probably by far the majority of GW2’s player base. If you feel they aren’t catering to your preferences (though this should have beem apparent a long time ago), then you should play something else. There are tons of amazing games out there.

There is nothing weird about this. HoT did things similarly, except they added the new Desert Borderlands and PvP leagues. We still have PvP leagues and given the community response, I don’t think hardcore WvWs evem want new maps. Let’s not forget that new elite specs are content for WvW and PvP as well, so that’s like a an update to those modes.

Finally, Anet polled the community on what they wanted them to do next for WvW. Rewards won out. They literally asked the community what they wanted and then did it. Maybe it’s not what you wanted, but tough. I don’t care either way since I don’t do WvW. I will say that I’m glad they made them long term rewards as a way to reward the committed player base that kept that mode afloat.

For me and many like me, this is exactly what we want. I’m sorry it’s not for you though. I know it sucks when a game you enjoy goes in a different direction than you want, but I honestly think GW2 has been going this way for a long time.

As others have mentioned though, lots of the stuff you want will see updates throughout the next season. They’re not really tied to expansions. You can always wait on the expac and buy it when/if Anet introduces more content down the line that interests you. That’s the great thing about the game being B2P, you don’t have to feel obligated to stick around when things aren’t interesting you.

^^ By definition yes this is selfish, you want a multi million project to be tailored to meet your exact needs. The reality is Anet are offering a new product, you either want it or you don’t. Contrary to your justification that ‘MANY’ agree with you, many more don’t, evidenced by the fact that Anet have in fact invested in another expansion.

offence.4726:

Spartacus.3192:

offence.4726:

Exciton.8942:

It is totally fine. Just playing with new elite spec should be exciting enough.

Given how they completely failed to update and support stronghold, I don’t think it is a good idea to invest in that much resource for new PvP content anymore.

Why ? The biggest part of this game envolves PvP , WvW and the PvP community make this game , this makes no sense..

There are WAAAAYYYYY more PVE dedicated players than pvp/wvw players . This game is primarily a PVE game with attached pvp/wvw modes.

Hahah PvE dedicated players ?? Doing what , Dungeons failed pre-hot and outside Living story and griding mats for making nothing but shiny weapons what do you have left ? Fractals ? be srs dude

Do you have any idea of how many players run WvW atm ? Just look at the PvP lobby’s all the juice is inside there. Everyone else left is afking by the Auction House. clueless

PVE players happily PVP and WVW, the 3 are not mutually exclusive.

Adenin.5973:

vesica tempestas.1563:

And il guarantee you if a person doesn’t enjoy GW2 they are not going to start enjoying it because they have the image of a horse instead of their character moving.

I have several friends that asked me about the game and one of their first question was if there are mounts. Mounts are pretty much a standard for an mmo today. If you are used to them you don’t want to miss them.
Just imagine not being able to jump in a newly released mmo…

Also, I myself stopped playing gw2 shortly after the release of HoT but I returned as soon as I heard about the new expansion, two of the new elite specializations and of course because of the fact that we probably are getting mounts.

Right now I have new goals in the game, saving as much gold, mats, hero points as possible to craft new possible legendaries and acquire new equipment, new mounts, new elite specializations from the expansion.

I am also member in a huge guild 400+ members and since the leaks the guild upped its member count from 300 to 400 people. Many new players but many people have just recently returned because of the leaks.

People seem to like mounts overall that’s what I am getting from all of that.

That’s not what i said. If someone does not like the gameplay offered in GW2 then adding/removing mounts, its not going to affect that. I will guarantee you no player who enjoyed playing GW2 left purely because there are no mounts – it is fluff. What does mounts give? well some people like collecting mounts, so that’s good, however the speed of the mounts will need to be the same as max speed running or those maps are going to feel VERY VERY small. The real question is wether mounts should be prioritized over other things and if its value for money. If its cheap to build and speed is managed then win win perhaps.

Apski.3148:

When mounts are coming to Guild Wars 2, so many player will return to the game, I can guarantee that. So many people says and ANet itself, that we don’t need mounts because we have waypoints? That’s insane! Running place to place is so boring, I would rather just jump on my mount and ride there and being awesome. Guild Wars 2 feels so poor without mounts compared to other mmo’s where are. I know there will be mounts coming lately, I just wanted to tell people that mounts would be really awesome and they are worth to wait.

And il guarantee you if a person doesn’t enjoy GW2 they are not going to start enjoying it because they have the image of a horse instead of their character moving.

Abraxxus.8971:

I’ve seen this balance problem before. Arenanets issue is they have a game where there is hundreds, maybe thousands of possible character weapon/trait combinations across 9 classes. That is way too much to try to balance against each other. I’m a former City of Heroes player, and I saw this problem 10-fold in that game. It got to the point that they CoH devs figured out they could not balance all the ATs against one another and just gave up on the pvp part of their game.

As someone once said somewhere… there are just too many variables to try to make it work.

the mistake is in thinking the answer is balance, its not. A game with the freedom to have thousands of skill combinations requires a different solution, i.e paper, stone, scissors on a grand scale.

Djinn.9245:

Vayne.8563:

You can’t build a game around the lowest 5% of the playerbase, or you lose the top 5%. Every game in existence is looking for that sweet spot, but the spot is different for everyone. My issue with your comments on HOT and mastery points is that you seem to believe you have some sort of majority. That what was done is actually something wrong with the game. I don’t believe that’s true.

But it does sadden me that you have to stoop to personal attacks. And I’m not particularly happy with how conveniently you forget what’s occurred in the past of this game.

Vayne.8563:

Okay it’s possible you don’t play that well.

Vayne.8563:

You can’t build a game around the lowest 5% of the playerbase

Yes, I’m the one with the personal attacks LOL. I only responded to your comments by saying you made me regret responding.

I don’t believe that it is only the lowest 5% of players who have problems with HoT. And I never asked for the game to be “built around” anyone. I am simply expressing my opinion. If enough people don’t like something it is up to the company to decide what they will do with that information.

doesnt really matter what we believe, Anet have the statistics and they are building another expansion. They Invested in HOT, and they thought the response from the player base was enough payback to do it again. Less than 5% of people complain about HOT in a forum designed to give a voice to those that want to complain. Less than 5% of chat in game is about problems with hot. Where is the evidence that its over 5%?

to put it another way, for the first 10-20 hours of gameplay you will be playing the first couple of zones in HOT either doing the quest lines or events, or exploring, or mini games. that first 10-20 hours of game play nearly 2 years ago give acccess to any masteries you want.

Silmar Alech.4305:

If it is so easy and clear as you write, well, why do threads like these constantly pop up since HoT release, where people write about their problems, which are all the same since release? For you it might all be easy and clear, but for (too) many people it seems not, and that fact is proved by the pure existence of these threads. A non-issue would generate none of these forum threads.
Don’t look at the design itself, look at the people how they deal with the design. They clearly have their problems with it.

you know HOT came out nearly 2 years ago right? People saying they are still struggling after nearly 2 years of gameplay are either being disingenuous or are going to struggle with every game known to man. People don’t post for non issues, that’s why the vast majority don’t complain about the difficulty of HOT, because actually its not really a difficult game. Dark Souls is a difficult game, or a tightly tuned raid is difficult, even some GW1 elite zones, but GW2 lol, no.

WARIORSCHARGEING.2637:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Excellent Name.9574:

However, personal likes and dislikes aside, what is not up to debate is how devastating HoT has been to player base in all three aspects of the game: PvE, PvP and WvW.

On the contrary, people are debating that very point.

this is very true but yet their are some setting back and just watching it all and waiting to see how it all rolls out this time around . before making any jumpy moves at all . compared to last time around.

the very fact of all that fake hype and hot itself put together. well seeing some trying to become hype trains right now sure is not a good kitten idea at all to have happen .giving how hot came down and all that giving the facts there is no details as of yet from the company at all . i think it can be well said a lot of us this time are taking the next pack a whole lot more differently .than the first time around . hype=death

you know hype is in the eye of the beholder right? The only people that need to take thing differently this time round are those that blindly bought a product without knowing enough to determine it it met their needs and felt the need to complain and blame about it. Everyone else takes responsibility for their own actions already.

TexZero.7910:

vesica tempestas.1563:

New players get vanilla for free, and the expansion will cost the average price for an AAA expansion, whats to debate.

Quite a few things.

1) Price Point / Value (Size)
2) Ethics of Double Dipping (I.E this expansion will be the 3rd time someone has paid for GW2 base, 2nd time for HoT etc)
3) Defining the average for a AAA expansion (GW expansion for example were ~$20)

Not much a player can ask for but, these are things that really should be thought about by the marketing team as it can have a very real impact on sales as a whole.

all subjective forum blah blah. the reality is new players get vanilla for free, and the expansion will cost the average price for an AAA expansion in all likelihood. People may like to pretend chat in forums like this may make a difference, but thats not how things work.

As for someone worrying that someone else is getting a better deal, well as we tell our children, don’t worry about it and enjoy what you enjoy.

Crutch? its an armor set. As for Zerk the only people who care about that set are those that min max for a raid. Outside of a raid Zerk is useless beyond giving bigger numbers and less utility/support/heal/condy/defense.

Personally i switch between marauder/celestial/trailblazer as my mood fits. Choice is much more enjoyable.

New players get vanilla for free, and the expansion will cost the average price for an AAA expansion, whats to debate.

everywhere? 90+% of the map is flat, in fact Anet is only offering more complex environments in GW2 for those that are fed up with flat for a couple % of the real estate in the game. Choice is good, no choice is ultimately dull.

If a person cannot comprehend that a great mmorpg’s is about the virtual world as a whole and not just feature x that was introduced x years ago that you look at in isolation then he will never be happy.

Ryou.2398:

Lokki.1092:

marelooke.9708:

Ever increasing stats results in less and less content being available since the old stuff becomes trivial and the gear useless.

It also results in lowering the amount of returning players. At least where myself and my friends are concerned, and I doubt we are so unique as to be the only people that feel this way.

Like many others I routinely take breaks from MMOs, especially when they have little content to provide.

While on such a break, Guild wars sends me an email that an expansion is starting, and I should check it out. What does it add? New story, new skins, and models and new areas to explore! I also find out the WvW has been updated, new maps, new rewards.

All we have to do is…
*Jump back into the game
And we can enjoy the new story and new PvP changes to their fullest extent.

I share it with all my friends and we jump back into Tyria for the next 4-8 months tearing it up and having a blast the whole time. PvP, collecting, or PvE we are back the next day doing the content we love. Our classes are old friends we remember, with some new additions but 100% familiar. and while the meta has changed over time

WoW on the other hand sends me an email about the new story, in the new expansion telling me to check it out. Well what does it add? New story, new skins and models and new areas to explore. The PvP has been updated with new maps and rewards. It all sounds great!

All we have to do is…
*Jump back into the game
*Level our character 10 more levels
*Learn the entirely new/revamped mechanics for our classes, which sometimes change their roles completely.
*Farm the new currency to upgrade our gear to raid level
*Join a raiding guild or start our own
*Raid each wing, and gear up between raid tiers, while waiting for more story
*Gear up (or unlock talents) with the new PvP system
And we can enjoy the new story and new PvP changes to their fullest extent.

This doesn’t even include the small breaks for a month or two where you miss a raid tier, or a PvP season. guess what? Time to play catch up grinding the “Old” content to get up to a level where you can play the new content.

I share this with my friends and we discuss at length on discord if we really want to go through another WoW expansion. If we do return, it is with much less excitement than a game like GW2, because we know we are in for 4 hours of work we don’t want to do, for ever 1 hour of fun that we do want.

GW1 and GW2 did a great job of keeping this in check. I always feel welcomed back if I leave, and eager to play again when I come back. Because I know when I return I can start doing whatever I want to do.
New legendary armor? I can start working on it day 1.
New jumping puzzles? I can head there immediately.
New story? Instantly be immersed in the lore of Tyria.
New _______? It’s all available to me because there is no power creep, or vertical progression ever.

Amazing post, end thread.

nailed it. Only thing i would add is GW is over 10 years old, its never been about stats in those 10 years and never will be, because of benefits as described above.

Zackie.8923:

power does damage. condis should affect status only. condis shouldn’t do any damage

So you arguing for all dmg to be instant + utility? sounds pretty kitten dull and straight out of gaming 1990s.

You said it yourself a few posts ago when you thought a mace/axe condi would be pretty cool…………….

OP that blows my 3 year old setup out of the water and i get everything smooth @60 fps appart from wvw and busy cities, game will look silky for you

lucadiro.4519:

How can people say this game is balanced around pvp while there isn’t even a pvp balance team of dev lol.
The balance of pvp in this game is just around change/removal/add sigils, Runes and amulets.
In every patch we had since raid release the balancing of skills and trait is 90% focus in PvE and 10% on pvp with really soft impact on it.

who is saying the game should be balanced around pvp? PVE/PVP forum warriors are getting confused, the only issue is the failure of the devs to focus on balancing where it has the greatest impact. As far as i’m aware I can play any build I like in PVE and can mix and match a near endless set of gear/skills/buffs and everything is perfectly playable at the moment. PVP at the moment however has big issues, and therefore that’s where the focus should be – e.g not meteor. Focus on PVE when it is an issue, same argument.

Feanor.2358:

Jski.6180:

Spvp and wvw builds effective and balance are way more importunate then raids pve.

Depends on your own usage pattern, don’t you think? To me, spvp and roaming balance importance is zero. If you want to claim they are objectively more important, you’d need to prove they are being played by more players. Which you can’t do, as this type of information isn’t publicly available. Hence the claim would be essentially empty.

Being objective is realizing the majority of players do not raid and that its niche and therefore lower priority – that’s not to say it should be ignored so raider needn’t get all defensive. Prioritization of work to maximize improvement while minimizing negative impact is fairly obvious to most. As for design, Guild wars (1 & 2) end game has always been pvp and collecting. Anet are smart enough not to try and compete for a market (raiding mmorpg) that is cooked and is very very expensive to develop content for. Balance is obviously critical for pvp because its real people playing against each other.

^^ personally i want choice, and that means different styles of maps. 90% of maps being flat is more than enough for me. Horses for courses and choice wins the day, not same old same old.

Feanor.2358:

PvE will always be a priority in this game. Get this already – it’s a PvE game. WvW and PvP are there, but the game was primarily designed as PvE and the majority of its players are PvE. Therefore, PvE will always be a consideration when making balance changes, so long as we don’t have a full skill split. Which we probably never will. And get this as well – as far as PvE balance goes, raids are the only place where builds can actually be measured for efficiency. Of course the balancing will be based around their performance there. What do you expect, balance around Queensdale heart completions?

No-one was saying PVE isnt important for balance and pve is actually in a good place where you can literally play any build and have fun. The only PVE exception is raiding which is niche and has totally different goal than any part of the game – rotations on a boss and min maxing .

The balance issues affect spvp and wvw roaming. As 1 example, changing meteor for was a poor decision – it wasnt a priority issue, and worse the change was made to impact all areas of GW2 Ele meteor play, with a negative impact in areas (wvw in particular)

The balance focus should be about fixing the biggest issues that impacts the biggest amount of players, not some low hanging fruit to serve some perceived issue with a niche element of the game.

Sorry when i say PVE i should have said typical GW2 PVE, not Raiding which is a niche. for a niche part of the game this should not be causing changes that are affecting the majority of the game elsewhere. (meteor change for example) spvp and any form of pvp that doesn’t involve blobbing is however the big problem for eles here. Dps rotation balance in a raid should not be a priority in this game.

Put it another way, Developers should be prioritizing the most popular forms of gameplay that has the biggest issues first.

PVE and wvw zerging can be done with any build, its irrelevant beyond being able to avoid being caught in the front line when outnumbered.

Roaming and spvp however does rely on a decent balance of defensive and offensive skills along with player skill to use this and ele fails. Ele is a profession that has no clear role or strength, its not even average at everything. An ele either has average burst but no defenses, or a defensive build and kitten poor damage, and its been like that for a long time now. Devs think things are ok because people can kitten dmg in a raid on a npc and they think this reflects the whole game (i’m guessing this since raids is the only place where Ele actually competes) They will push dedicated ele players away from the game with this attitude for sure, no player is going to put with with this kind of unrewarding design and raiding is not the Raison D’etre for GW2.

plushiesoda.8150:

vesica tempestas.1563:

Hot was good enough they are making another expansion (you wouldn’t do that level of investment on something that has proven to fail)

right… failures from the past are never repeated, human history has proved it so far. You’re so right… oh wait…

no, Anet invested in an expansion, and see merit in investing in another Expansion. Ipso facto.

if you look for gloom and doom in life, generally that’s what you will find.

If you thinking about gaming aiming for harmonious inclusive communities that enjoy playing together towards common goals, there is hardly any game in Real life or virtual that is played for pleasure where you ‘kick’ people because they are not performing, the journey/battle really is supposed to be part of the fun – just like those rpg board games at the root of mmorpg history.

Tightly tuned dps races and ranking of strangers is a design flaw that fights against this harmony. Perhaps modern players have not experienced group based rpg that is not centralized around winning at all cost?

Warcry.1596:

I am not anti meters, if people feel like they prefer them, then they should be able to,

I do think the larger issue is the reason why people want them. I think that the raid content was designed with high DPS in mind, which I think is a flaw in and of itself.

If DPS didn’t matter, and your success in the content was based on difficult mechanics… Like complete challenging mechanic or fail the encounter, then it would have a much better design, and the entire debate wouldn’t even come up.

It makes me wonder, where did high DPS = high skill cap originate? They are not always synomymous.

absolutely agree with this, hits the nail on the head. . If raids weren’t designed as dps races then ther wouldn’t be an issue. Human nature means some people who are not normally aggressive can become aggressive due to peer pressure and a tool that promotes aggressive selfish play and measures using simplistic metrics adds fuel to the fire. As for blaming the victim for joining a raid and not automatically knowing he may be abused by a stranger in that raid in the future -well we see that argument in real life too often by the aggressive don’t we.

Why is this an issue? well the majority of players don’t want to put up with the risk of encountering this behavior so we have Anet developing content for a minority. Legendary armor for example excluded from the majority of the player base.

his point seem to be there was an over abundance of tiered maps released on October 23 2015 but not before this date or after.. go figure.

phokus.8934:

vesica tempestas.1563:

phokus.8934:

What’s with the over abundance of tiered level maps? It makes exploring these maps not fun, boring, and pretty frustrating when you are trying to map complete and follow the living story. I’d be fine with the tiered level maps if they weren’t so crazy to get to – follow this daisy chain of updrafts and jumps just to get to a new tier; make a small turn and start over from the beginning.

The maps are nicely done but the fun factor in exploring them and having the same boring style is dwindling pretty hard.

you know over 90% of the maps are flat right? < 10% is not really overabundant. In fact there is a massive over abundance of flat maps.

Referring to the HoTs maps. They’re all tiered level.

Edit: And all of the newly released zones tied to the living story are tiered.

ah well this is not the HOT forum, and no not all HOT zones are tiered, there have been 9 zones since hot was originally released. over 90% of all zones in GW2 are flat including the 9 zones that have been introduced.

Edit unless you are ignoring all zones prior to October 23, 2015 but including 3 out of the 4 zones released on that date then ignoring all zones after – odd thing to complain about in 2017.

phokus.8934:

What’s with the over abundance of tiered level maps? It makes exploring these maps not fun, boring, and pretty frustrating when you are trying to map complete and follow the living story. I’d be fine with the tiered level maps if they weren’t so crazy to get to – follow this daisy chain of updrafts and jumps just to get to a new tier; make a small turn and start over from the beginning.

The maps are nicely done but the fun factor in exploring them and having the same boring style is dwindling pretty hard.

you know over 90% of the maps are flat right? < 10% is not really overabundant. In fact there is a massive over abundance of flat maps.

Anet banned gear viewing, exact same problem, i.e fuel for toxic behavior. If you offer a tool that ranks people based on a couple of stats then that is fuel for abuse. Bad tools generate additional bad behavior. Check out WOW, that’s where raids are heading in GW2, toxic ugly self centered playing where being no 1 in a meter is important – is the cost really worth it?

- Toxic player with dps meter: toxic
- Nice player with dps meter: not toxic
- Some additional players who are not usually toxic peer pressured by a ranking system to be toxic. This is the reality of human behavior, not just that there are toxic humans and non toxic humans.

Ashantara.8731:

armaduras.8972:

I really hope not. I have 4,300 hours logged into the game currently with five sets of ascended and five legendary weapons. I am more than happy with the gear provided..

I think you misunderstood the OP’s statement: They didn’t ask for more or higher-tier gear, they asked for different, more fun and rewarding (i.s., less boring/grindy) ways to get it in the future.

And I absolutely agree with that request.

The journey to get a legendary weapon should be varied and epic so how exactly does that look? The best possible solution is a wide and varied mix of activities that you follow in an epic journey. You need to record progress in that journey, and the best possible way of doing this is a wide and varied mix of tokenisation and progress bars. Well this is what you have, what else would you do?

which has nothing to do with it, we are talking about people who are in such a raid, yes people who don’t join such raids wont be affected, thats moot.

your arguement of ‘well dont play’ simply avoids the issue and topic under discussion.

Sly.9518:

vesica tempestas.1563:

Sly.9518:

Again you consent if you join groups that use meters, don’t want to be monitored? Don’t join groups using meters pretty simple you are in complete control, and again dps meters a re tool that show dps it doesn’t create hostility people do, they would be toxic without meters, this was proven already,

And now you are saying change Raids, why it met its target audience and exceeded expectations, bahahah if you don’t like the gameplay you probably weren’t the target audience for Raids

Well that’s not really how it works is it, all raids have these people with meters and you know it.

But a comprimise, have meters for yourself, why such a need to measure other people?

Do you need metrics to have a great four balls golf game?
Do you need metrics to have a great 5 man instance run?
Do you need metrics to enjoy a World boss?
Do you need metrics for just about any other online game?
So why such a meed for raids, is it perchance because actually the meta game is one upmanship on meters?

Again it is clear you were never the target audience for Raids, yet you want Raids to be changed because you don’t fit into the target audience, again you don’t have to group with the people running dps meters, you can even ask the group leader if they are even using Meters in the group before joining. Oh no but that’s logic.

I don’t want to raid, i have however spent about 15k hours raiding I am indeed not the target audience but thank you for reminding me? I would however raid if the environment was different. As for ‘asking’, the point is when meters are abused not when they are used well, this has nothing to do with the person asking to join.

Different tact, Why not have meters measure yourself only, you should be able to trust your team mates to learn right? so why do you need to measure others?

Great leaders lead, they don’t micromanage

Sly.9518:

Again you consent if you join groups that use meters, don’t want to be monitored? Don’t join groups using meters pretty simple you are in complete control, and again dps meters a re tool that show dps it doesn’t create hostility people do, they would be toxic without meters, this was proven already,

And now you are saying change Raids, why it met its target audience and exceeded expectations, bahahah if you don’t like the gameplay you probably weren’t the target audience for Raids

Well that’s not really how it works is it, all raids have these people with meters and you know it.

But a comprimise, have meters for yourself, why such a need to measure other people?

Do you need metrics to have a great four balls golf game?
Do you need metrics to have a great 5 man instance run?
Do you need metrics to enjoy a World boss?
Do you need metrics for just about any other online game?
Do you need metrics on others on a raid thats on farm?
So why such a meed for raids, is it perchance because actually the meta game is one upmanship on meters?

Put it this way, i can think of hardly any games played for pleasure in real life, on boards or online where people are ‘kicked’ because of a metric, why is it people think its acceptable in raiding?

e.g :

A 4 way game of CIV
A 4 way game of golf
an RPG board game
A team cyclicing race
A 5 man instance that is not tightly tuned

it goes on and on and on

being rutheless and ‘mean’ to others or booting them is not nessassary to have fun in all the above, and yet ‘raiding’ seems to justify such behavior, and thats fed with meters – you have to ask yourself why that is.

I play LOTR, ESO and EVE and i do not see any toxicity re meter performance. However Raids and meters are the poisonous combination, its the type of gameplay it promotes where ‘performance’ is seen by many as being more important than great gameplay. Change design of raids to not be tuned on dps performance and you remove the need for meters. At the very least make meters private so you cant see others, this would be a proper middle ground.

Sly.9518:

Ryou.2398:

Sly.9518:

There was Tocxicity and abuse before any meters ever existed and it was worse since it was based on arbitrary things, so prove that Dps meters brought Toxicity and Hostility into the game, you can’t because t was already here. So ty to say they cause it all you want it is not true.

I do not know I have noticed more since I rejoined the game your argument can easily be switched around and we can ask you to disapprove it.

You can’t really because my argument is that’s toxicity and hostility existed long before dps meters, this is a known fact documented on these forums ever since the game launched /GG.

as i said above – a strawman argument, the point is meters is ANOTHER source of hostility not the root of all things hostile.

ps do you remember hostility in board based RPG? or early wow before raids and meters – because there wasn’t.

@sly, thats a strawman argument, the point is meters is ANOTHER source of hostility not the root of all things hostile.

you can summarise as follows:

Some people are arguing here that meters cause hostility.

Some people are defending meters by being hostile to anyone who says meters cause hostile behavior. The fact is many use meters and do not abuse others, unfortunately many do abuse others using data taking directly from meters. Remove the meters and learn to play well without its crutches and you remove a source of hostility.

Asur.9178:

vesica tempestas.1563:

dps meters is a thing not a person, that be the issue. I Quote ’ stop your whining’, ’ get upset at you when you don’t do what you’re told’, ‘like a spoiled little brat. Grow up’

all reportable personal attacks on the poster that had nothing to do with his point which was about negative use of meters.

Anything and everything can be taken out of context like you just did. Let me quote myself.

Asur.9178:

Grow up!

…oh and for the record, I’ve seen far more hostility from people who do not like DPS meters than those that use it as a tool to assist them.

In game, i don’t think so, and incidentally the hostility is about the tool and the behavior it causes. Your also totally missing the point while you are busy moving you attacks on to me, the issue is not people who use the tool, the issue is people who misuse the tool. Its a bit like Americans who love guns (an instrument designed to kill) and don’t get why the murder rate is so high in comparison to other countries that don’t have guns – and lo, the use of guns and murder is much lower.

If you want an example of why meters are a bad thing socially go back to the roots of the mmorpg – the rpg board games played by groups. This is where the point was not just to win, but to have a great encounter that everyone enjoyed. Now imagine if someone kicked a player out of the house because his ‘dps lacked’ sounds preposterous and anti social – and yet that’s what people do with online rpg with meters, winning is more important than a great fight. This is fed by the highly tuned raid fight which validates this behaviour unfortunately.

dps meters is a thing not a person, that be the issue. I Quote ’ stop your whining’, ’ get upset at you when you don’t do what you’re told’, ‘like a spoiled little brat. Grow up’

all reportable personal attacks on the poster that had nothing to do with his point which was about negative use of meters.

Asur.9178:

virus.4370:

vesica tempestas.1563:

virus.4370:

Barzhal.2640:

It’s sad we need to install third party programs to gain the information we should have in game. As for hostility and elitism, that exists whether there are DPS meters or not. There should be metrics for people to judge how well the members of a team are performing. If you can’t handle elitists and people being mean to you, perhaps you’re playing the wrong game.

^ case in point"if you aren’t playing my way or the way i like. you are playing the wrong game.. that is what the OP was talking about..that should not be the mentally of any mmo . i hate self-appointed elitist..i hated them in gws 1 ..and still don’t like that mind set. it huts the game, it hurts new players, it hurts creativity of builds and playing styles. that mind set will kill a game faster then anything else..

+1. raiding or speed run + meters = this kind of nasty attitude where its ok to be mean to people, the ends justifies the means which is to say its more important to clear an instance than it is to enjoy playing and supporting people.

then the raid should be changed..all players should be able to play all content..without special tools..no voip, no 3rd party tools, no special builds or special armors..the game and content should stand on it’s own..i didn’t need that junk for gws 1 and i owned like a boss in that game.

Here’s a shocking thought that you didn’t consider: make and lead your own group!

If you are so persistent on joining others’ group then get used to being able to pull your weight. Else start making your own groups and stop your whining.

What you essentially want is someone to hold your hand AND not get upset at you when you don’t do what you’re told…like a spoiled little brat. Grow up!

And another, its funny how those that defend meters and how they do not make people hostile do this by being hostile and rude. If they act like this in a forum talking about it, you can see how things would be so much worse in a raid with a couple of these people feeding each other – we have all seen it before.

Maybe they should think how skillful players would have to be if they didn’t have meters to rely on.

virus.4370:

Barzhal.2640:

It’s sad we need to install third party programs to gain the information we should have in game. As for hostility and elitism, that exists whether there are DPS meters or not. There should be metrics for people to judge how well the members of a team are performing. If you can’t handle elitists and people being mean to you, perhaps you’re playing the wrong game.

^ case in point"if you aren’t playing my way or the way i like. you are playing the wrong game.. that is what the OP was talking about..that should not be the mentally of any mmo . i hate self-appointed elitist..i hated them in gws 1 ..and still don’t like that mind set. it huts the game, it hurts new players, it hurts creativity of builds and playing styles. that mind set will kill a game faster then anything else..

+1. raiding or speed run + meters = this kind of nasty attitude where its ok to be mean to people, the ends justifies the means which is to say its more important to clear an instance than it is to enjoy playing and supporting people.

i play mags exclusively and have done for 20 years so im with you GW2 is a little different from other mmorpg in that its not about rotations (well its seeped in a bit with raiding but that’s a tiny part of the game) its about smoothly flexing between your spells and combo fields to react to the fight in front of you – its really satisfying because you will use all of your spells. Best advice i can give is to not be tempted to pick a ‘meta’ build, instead just constantly tweak your builds, weapons, sigils, food/util buffs as you go and look for synergies, again its a lot more fun and satisfying, and you end up with a greater depth of knowledge and more fun playing.

dont use your gems to buy a legendary weapon you are depriving yourself of content and long term goals. Buy Quality of life kit like storage expansions, unlimited crafting tools, shared slots and a nice wee copper fed salvaging machine.

As suggested, set aside your boosted 80 character and enjoy the game as it was meant to be played, and level/explore the world and story. Bear in mind there’s no race at end game, you don’t fall behind so you can take your time.

Elementalist:

-No clear vision of what its role is
-Balance hacking going on (influenced in part by damage kitten in raids and god knows what)
-Average at some things, bad at others, excels at nothing is not a good place to be
-lots of skills that are absolutely useless and have been for a very long time.
-poor cost/risk for range/armor levels.
- an over reliance on 1 overbearing skill (fresh air)

I’m an elementalist only and there comes a point where it just gets tiresome to have to continually work around class design flaws to the point where other games start to look attractive (i’m looking at you eso morrowind even with your issues) poor week.